1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,480 there we go i found an open source an open source voice recorder it actually works 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,080 all right i think that's it are we on yeah that should work all right i'll trust it again 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:22,540 which didn't serve me well so far every single time i said like i trusted something went wrong 4 00:00:22,540 --> 00:00:25,880 and i had to do some manual recovery 5 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,480 but we made it that far 6 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:36,380 all right yeah let's just go there 7 00:00:36,380 --> 00:00:46,760 and we'll we'll see where our feet and our conversation leads us okay so yeah i think 8 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:52,560 we both agree that the internet is fucked i really like the title that you gave one of your talks 9 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:59,080 which was the internet is fucked yeah i completely agree the thing is the internet is the best thing 10 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:05,320 that we've ever invented and it's so fucked because our expectations were so high about it 11 00:01:05,320 --> 00:01:14,660 i remember this from my youth and childhood when the overarching theme was that the internet is going 12 00:01:14,660 --> 00:01:23,240 to be this massive intense uh technology that's going to unite us and elevate us the human spirit 13 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:30,680 will reach a new level and the sphere free access to information free access to knowledge 14 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:37,640 free everything at your fingertips yes and like uh kind of a uprising of the human soul 15 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:44,620 yeah to the powers that be yeah and and now we have memes and porn and misinformation memes porn 16 00:01:44,620 --> 00:01:51,500 misinformation violence political manipulation crazy people finding each other on the internet 17 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:58,820 starting cults yeah i mean i think as i as i'm getting like i don't want to say as i'm getting older 18 00:01:58,820 --> 00:02:07,120 but looking at how things turned out and i become less disappointed about it at the same time though 19 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,440 so i'm kind of finding my peace with the developments that we've been seeing because 20 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:19,400 maybe um i think maybe our expectations have been a bit too naive about how things going to work out and 21 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:25,300 maybe just maybe the things that we're seeing now as the internet perpetrates or penetrates the entire 22 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:31,840 world the frictions that we see that you just mentioned maybe are just part of the process 23 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:39,600 and you know it's like you know a child expecting like the the gift and then you get the gift and 24 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:44,720 you realize it's not like what you imagine it to be yeah but you still get something out of it and 25 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:50,520 you only when you grow up you see that it was something actually towards that goal that you 26 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:56,940 anticipated and i'm kind of thinking maybe for example misinformation or cults or just you know 27 00:02:56,940 --> 00:03:05,740 the crazy people finding each other maybe that's an unavoidable point in the path on the path towards 28 00:03:05,740 --> 00:03:11,700 this original vision what the internet would have brought us you know yeah i mean i think it's also 29 00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:16,240 it's also good that crazy people find each other i mean we found each other on the internet as well 30 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:22,440 correct i mean we're also crazy people but it's it's the the thing is that um you know it's always 31 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:30,820 a two-sided coin or a you know like a uh uh what's the saying with the sword yeah double-sided 32 00:03:30,820 --> 00:03:35,720 double-edged sword double-edged sword that's right yeah and and so you can't have the good without 33 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:41,160 the bad and i think all all the wisdom traditions will tell you this as well you know and that's what i 34 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:48,140 think is that i think that was the main mistake that the early internet people they equated 35 00:03:48,140 --> 00:03:54,580 information with knowledge and with wisdom and those are three very distinct things like if you're 36 00:03:54,580 --> 00:03:58,220 lucky you get from information to knowledge and if you're very lucky you get from knowledge to wisdom 37 00:03:58,220 --> 00:04:05,180 but but it doesn't come just because and it doesn't come for free and i think we were very naive 38 00:04:05,180 --> 00:04:11,000 and what i kind of hope that i mean in some sense we're trying to build the next version of the 39 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,220 internet right now in some sense yes and what i'm worried about is that we're going to make the same 40 00:04:15,220 --> 00:04:19,100 mistakes so i really hope that we're not going to make the same mistakes and so i don't want to be 41 00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:24,640 utopic about you know bitcoin and oscar and e-cash and all those kind of things because it's not 42 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:30,140 going to be utopia i i mentioned i mentioned as many times already but i really like john riveki's line 43 00:04:30,140 --> 00:04:37,640 neither nostalgia nor utopia so so both of those are misguided we have to learn from the past and 44 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:44,640 extract the good things from the past and kind of aim for have a utopic vision in some sense but we're 45 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,600 never gonna have any utopia ever and i think that's where the early internet people they got a lot of 46 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:55,840 things right like net neutrality for example um which of course you know it's debatable whether we 47 00:04:55,840 --> 00:05:01,660 still have that and so on um but i think they got a lot of things wrong as well which which was kind 48 00:05:01,660 --> 00:05:09,460 of you know being convinced that we will usher in the utopia yes and i mean looking back at the 49 00:05:09,460 --> 00:05:17,820 cypherpunks the cypherpunk movement itself uh defined itself through uh making everyone aware of the 50 00:05:17,820 --> 00:05:25,580 terrifying world that we could end up in if the internet if the world digitizes and we yeah we become 51 00:05:25,580 --> 00:05:33,380 more connected it's not a utopic vision per se um it is even stronger i think i would say is the 52 00:05:33,380 --> 00:05:39,240 dystopic vision is the thing that you're trying to avoid the insights that speaking of things trying 53 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,640 to avoid i was like let's walk here i'm sure there isn't it's going to be it's not going to be that 54 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,440 noisy and there's like you know a jackhammer like it's it's really terrible instruction everywhere 55 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:54,880 so let's see these mics they are pretty good all right so that's closed off anyway so fuck it let's 56 00:05:54,880 --> 00:06:00,160 turn around because i wanted i wanted to to get up there but everything's closed okay so that's 57 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:06,300 construction let's just for the listeners this is uninteresting we're just turning around in circles 58 00:06:06,300 --> 00:06:10,700 basically walking in circles that's gonna be the the future of the internet it's like 59 00:06:10,700 --> 00:06:18,940 so the long arc of history is getting back to the to the warnings the early warning signs i think 60 00:06:18,940 --> 00:06:27,260 like they're also in bitcoin you'll find some of the i think interesting voices uh made us aware of 61 00:06:27,260 --> 00:06:32,780 the dangers of a hyperbitconized world for example oh yeah not everything should be purely optimistic 62 00:06:32,780 --> 00:06:39,860 you need to think about what happens let's say if nation states adopt bitcoin and uh use it 63 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:45,540 as a weapon to oppress their own people yeah it can be it's not like just because the tech is there 64 00:06:45,540 --> 00:06:51,020 everything will turn out fine yeah there is the the the idea and the fundamentals of the tech are the 65 00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:58,260 most important i think we all agree on that but obviously the way it's implemented is a whole like 66 00:06:58,260 --> 00:07:05,220 it's it's undefined until it's done yeah yeah yeah and i think it's it's i mean that's a 67 00:07:05,220 --> 00:07:12,420 that's just kind of by definition always true you know it's but i flip flop on this because it's like 68 00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:17,160 you know it's just a tool technology it's just a tool it depends on how you use it and so on and you 69 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:22,720 have i don't know let's let's take nuclear power you know like you can have uh clean abundant energy 70 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:28,480 forever and you you have nuclear weapons it's the same tech kind of you know you have a great kitchen 71 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:34,920 knife it's like you can murder someone with it or you can cook a great meal and and and so so the 72 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,160 technologists will tell you that technology is neutral but the reason why i flip flop on this is 73 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:45,220 is because i feel like there's some technologies that aren't neutral like reading and writing for 74 00:07:45,220 --> 00:07:49,640 example i don't think are like it's it's i don't think it's super neutral in some sense or i i don't 75 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:55,520 know i'm again i haven't made up my mind on this yet but the the reason why i bring it up is because 76 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,760 i think the 77 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:05,540 there is such a thing as a certain ethos embedded in various technologies like the car for example 78 00:08:05,540 --> 00:08:11,020 there's there's there are arguments that that personal transportation is what in part would 79 00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:15,420 brought out the brought down the soviet union because it's basically it's hyper personalized you 80 00:08:15,420 --> 00:08:19,580 know it's like you can go anywhere you just you fill up your car and you can go anywhere it's it's 81 00:08:19,580 --> 00:08:23,820 freedom technology in that sense you increase the ability of people to move you increase agency 82 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:27,680 you increase agency and that's why why i i brought reading and writing as well because 83 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:33,960 reading also increases agency in the sense that that it expands your horizon and it expands your 84 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,060 knowledge and those kind of things and i think i think it's undeniable that there is a certain 85 00:08:38,060 --> 00:08:43,600 ethos embedded in bitcoin for example and it truly changes people i mean i've seen this over and over and 86 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:49,100 over again and it changed me as well and like that's why lots of people wrote about this and and i think 87 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:54,800 that's this by now this is a known fact and so that's why i'm not sure if technology if all technology 88 00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:00,840 is truly neutral in some sense but i don't know so my my the reason why i bring all this up is because 89 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:09,560 i my hope is that we can have a kind of and i'm not even sure if technological is the right word like 90 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:16,780 i was about to say that we can have a technological substrate that brings more agency and thus also more 91 00:09:16,780 --> 00:09:23,080 responsibility to society but i'm not sure if it's the right word it's like i mean there's a reason 92 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:33,020 why we go through great lengths to you know to to the things we have to do so that almost everyone 93 00:09:33,020 --> 00:09:38,980 in society can rewrite it's like insane it's insane it takes like years and years and years of education 94 00:09:38,980 --> 00:09:45,580 it's like our whole society is geared towards this you know towards literacy and numeracy and so on 95 00:09:45,580 --> 00:09:52,160 so so we obviously think that this is valuable and we obviously think that this is beneficial 96 00:09:52,160 --> 00:10:00,620 to everyone and and and so with the with the internet right now for example we don't do anything 97 00:10:00,620 --> 00:10:06,400 like that and someone just a couple days ago brought up an excellent point that the current where the 98 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:11,600 internet is trending right now with internet with tiktok and all all this bullshit it's completely 99 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:18,520 passive it's like i'm here now entertain me yes give me all the recommendations even like amazon 100 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,860 shopping is like that you don't even you know go out to look for the thing that you need you're just 101 00:10:23,860 --> 00:10:30,440 like yeah please dear algorithm tell me what i need on average the agency of the individual 102 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:37,200 is on average is reduced at the number of people with higher agency probably increases but as more and 103 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:43,840 more people use the internet we ended up in a point where most people are pure consumers that was 104 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:52,260 always the case that most people will be consumers but um i think we both can agree that 105 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:59,740 the morality of the question whether something is good or bad only depends on the human itself 106 00:10:59,740 --> 00:11:08,800 technology itself just can never exist in a pure vacuum it has no meaning in a pure vacuum it always 107 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:15,020 needs to be applied for human and whether it's used for human good or human bad depends on the 108 00:11:15,020 --> 00:11:20,960 individual situation i think we we can all agree on that so the the thing itself is neither good 109 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:27,480 nor bad i'm i'm a strong proponent of stoic philosophy and stoic philosophy basically dictates 110 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:36,180 that also technology and everything outside of your control has no moral meaning the fact that it can 111 00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:44,100 be used by a totalitarian regime to control its people and the same technology can be used by the 112 00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:49,100 people to topple the totalitarian regime shows that very very distinctly very obviously 113 00:11:49,100 --> 00:12:00,080 yeah yeah i like the i like the stoic thought uh you know basically it's it's it's it's in in eastern 114 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:06,740 philosophy as well right where it's you know if if you can do something about it then do the thing 115 00:12:06,740 --> 00:12:11,520 and stop worrying about it and if you can't do something about it then worrying about it won't do it 116 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:23,380 any good right same same thing but yeah i i mean my my hope is kind of that with what we've learned 117 00:12:23,380 --> 00:12:28,900 now from the current iteration of the internet and i i view i view i mean this is still all ongoing 118 00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:34,800 and it's like you know ai is like proliferating and everything is algorithmically driven and it's 119 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:42,300 kind of it's in some sense i hope that we'll build stuff that allows those who want to 120 00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:49,460 position themselves in the driver's seat to be back in the driver's seat and actually have a say 121 00:12:49,460 --> 00:12:56,300 in kind of what happens to their money what happens to their compute what happens like how they 122 00:12:56,300 --> 00:13:02,800 like have agency in cyberspace basically yes and increase the number of agents also like yeah we will 123 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:08,540 always there will always be something new that enables those who adapt it first to gain more 124 00:13:08,540 --> 00:13:14,740 power and influence and what i find interesting is all the technological breaks that we encounter on 125 00:13:14,740 --> 00:13:23,820 the way um sometimes equal the playing field again yeah right now it's ai it doesn't i mean it's 126 00:13:23,820 --> 00:13:30,380 ambivalent i think because you can see that the larger companies that were you know uh developing this 127 00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:37,260 technologies such as google amazon maybe apple as well they have a head start yeah but at the same 128 00:13:37,260 --> 00:13:44,720 time the models are getting so much faster and more efficient that suddenly like thousands and 129 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:50,560 thousands of new people can build products that really rival those big ones yeah you know that's 130 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:55,020 the best thing that can happen that's like that's the that's really the best thing that can happen 131 00:13:55,020 --> 00:14:01,580 because there is no other moral direction as we have discussed before there's no ai is not going 132 00:14:01,580 --> 00:14:08,500 to be just good yeah but we can increase the chance of it being good by making sure that more people have 133 00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:16,140 access to it and more people can use it to fulfill their dreams and their goals instead of like the few 134 00:14:16,140 --> 00:14:22,560 one company dictating already have their goals already know where things need to go to to benefit 135 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:29,940 themselves yeah yeah yeah i think it's it's interesting to watch this happen over and over 136 00:14:29,940 --> 00:14:38,260 again that that kind of uh you know like the the cost gets driven down and and also the open models now 137 00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:43,080 catching up and stuff gets smaller and easier and cheaper and that means more people can use it and 138 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,120 have access to it that's the most exciting thing and the same thing happened also with bitcoin yeah 139 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,960 absolutely the banking system the entire finance anything that has to do with money like literally 140 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:58,740 anything from payments to saving to whatever you want to come up with 15 years ago there were maybe 141 00:14:58,740 --> 00:15:04,400 like you know hundreds of entities in the world that could do those things yeah now we have hundreds 142 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:10,600 of thousands of people who can build this and deploy this and just go with it because of bitcoin 143 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:16,560 because we have like completely equalized the access to financial systems to find to financial 144 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:22,480 operations on the internet and we're going to see the same with intelligence hopefully like actually 145 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:28,220 like i'm so impressed with by what's happening one year ago i remember this very clearly that i said 146 00:15:28,220 --> 00:15:34,040 to someone it's like i don't think that we'll be able to build uh you know that we'll have 147 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:41,380 competitive on-device ai because of the big of this huge gap between large data centers and the local 148 00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:48,100 llms that people have been using one year ago and this has changed now like a couple months ago i was 149 00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:56,000 telling someone else the same i did the same uh wrong prediction by saying now we're in this regime of 150 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:03,400 um excuse me what is called like the the thinking models um the ones that you know first produce 151 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,700 uh the chain of thoughts that's that's what it's called like chain of thoughts models and then you 152 00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:15,180 make the actual uh synthesis of data yeah and i was like convinced this is a new paradigm this is going 153 00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:20,860 to you know win over the old paradigm which turned out to be true now everyone does thinking models but i 154 00:16:20,860 --> 00:16:28,920 thought because it uses so much energy local llms will never be able to compete with large data 155 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:35,780 centers that now offer this uh you know prediction time compute basically uh that that requires so much 156 00:16:35,780 --> 00:16:43,640 compute during prediction and deep seek v3 just came out you know a month ago and just shattered that 157 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:50,180 prediction again so it's like this force of equalizing is the most the strongest force 158 00:16:50,180 --> 00:16:56,360 that that that i can think of it really like on an economic level forces everyone to rethink 159 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:01,800 what they've been doing and adjust to the new status quo and i like that's why i'm so in love 160 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,340 i mean technology that's that's what that's what free markets usually do right but but i i feel like 161 00:17:06,340 --> 00:17:11,600 not every technology works like that and not all systems work like that and i feel like we have to be 162 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:19,440 i briefly uh touched with this on on on pablo in one of the conversations um that we have to 163 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:26,200 be very careful to distinguish with stuff and systems that gets better over time which is what 164 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:31,980 you just described it gets more uh you know more democratic to use the term over time more people 165 00:17:31,980 --> 00:17:36,900 will have more access and so on and other things that have a centralizing tendency that centralize 166 00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:43,540 over time and can get kind of worse over time it's like um i don't know i feel do you see it in a 167 00:17:43,540 --> 00:17:49,120 similar way or do you think it's always going to be kind of nature works in a way that it's it's 168 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:55,800 automatically tending towards the good no i don't i don't think that it's uh it's an automatic thing 169 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:01,840 there are systems that get you know that benefit from centralization some things just scale better 170 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,980 when you centralize them and that's like the opposing force to what i just described 171 00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:13,420 um and network things are very good examples of that social networks are like the best example of 172 00:18:13,420 --> 00:18:18,400 that it's it's known as the network effect yeah the more people participate in a network the more 173 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:25,360 valuable the network becomes that means like inherent to the way this system works means that competition 174 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:30,540 is really hard to bootstrap you can make a social network with your five friends but it's not going to 175 00:18:30,540 --> 00:18:37,280 do anything sure i mean that that was the that was the bane of uh like every single time uh bitcoin 176 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,300 has tried to move away from bitcoin twitter it didn't work because of network effects i think we're 177 00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:47,580 now now with nostr it's the first time where it has a chance of working yeah and i agree and uh with 178 00:18:47,580 --> 00:18:55,380 nostr we've we've kind of unlocked one thing that the closed systems will never be able to unlock 179 00:18:55,380 --> 00:19:01,400 because they cannot cooperate in their they don't have synergies in their dna they must compete yeah 180 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,280 this is the only thing that keeps them alive yeah is the competition they must steal each other's 181 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,680 uses from each other forever because they cannot transition into a different model yeah many people 182 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:17,360 have tried that it's why jack dorsey left twitter at the end yeah it's why so many protocols in the 183 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:22,500 past that were supposed to be adopted by you know the large players for example facebook or meta 184 00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:29,260 adopted 80 proto uh for for their instagram twitter clone whatever it's called and it's like it's 185 00:19:29,260 --> 00:19:35,760 irrelevant no one interrupts with them no one even you can't you kind of just with blue sky like the 186 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:44,040 same to to you know mention the b word it's it's if you if you need like uh billions of dollars to run 187 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:50,940 one node then no one will ever interrupt it's like it's it's not an open it's it's open in name only 188 00:19:50,940 --> 00:19:56,140 right it's like you you need you need so much money to run the single master node that is required of 189 00:19:56,140 --> 00:20:02,880 the system that you just can't it's just like you know try joining the the swift node banking system 190 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,820 you know it's like yes it's it's you can in theory but you need like billions of dollars and we are 191 00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:13,520 doing it with noster we are literally doing it with not with noster it's like my same nsec i can use it 192 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:21,220 to stream videos i can sell stuff with shopster i can use it as my wallet on noster i can like i can 193 00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:25,980 do so many things with the same identity now and all of these systems benefit from each other yeah 194 00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:31,400 because they have not been founded on this premise of becoming the big thing yeah none of these 195 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:38,040 small subsystems of noster want to become the only thing that is around because they kind of 196 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:44,140 you know they know that noster will fail so their entire system will fail if they are the only thing 197 00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:49,400 yeah right so even like let's take primal as an example primal is like the most walled garden 198 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,860 experience that you'll get on noster and it's also sometimes makes compromises you know on on 199 00:20:54,860 --> 00:21:02,120 decentralization and whatnot like people know that but even primal knows exactly that if only primal is 200 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:06,460 used at the end of the day everything else breaks yeah none of their business models will work out 201 00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:12,200 like we've we've found the system in which synergies are rewarded yeah exactly it's the same thing in 202 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:17,320 bitcoin like i look at the bitcoin space and i see all these different companies and i've never seen 203 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,660 this in my life before we are all in the same boat you can feel that people think that they're in the 204 00:21:22,660 --> 00:21:29,900 same team you have competing companies that produce for example like two wallet providers that both 205 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:39,700 compete for number of users maybe like but both of them know that they both improve the bitcoin 206 00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:44,800 ecosystem with their products yeah and everyone's working on the same mission bitcoin fails we all 207 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,900 fail yeah i think i think that's a perfect way to put the incentives out there it's new it's never 208 00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:55,900 been done before it's so exciting to witness this yeah no i think i think that's what what the 209 00:21:55,900 --> 00:22:02,960 the the current like platform style building of internet systems is like it's it's it's pure 210 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:09,060 competition basically without any any symbiosis and we had no underlying substrate that allowed for 211 00:22:09,060 --> 00:22:14,840 symbiosis no and i think if you look at nature like the the most successful systems are symbiotic 212 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,260 systems it's like nature is full of symbiotic relationships that's what a lot of the you know like 213 00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:26,920 uh i i feel like a lot of people gloss over this fact that it's not all the jungle is not all 214 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,740 like competition competition and like only the strongest will survive and all those kind of 215 00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:35,720 things i mean in that case we would have probably only one single species left at the end of the day 216 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:47,480 like if that were the case yeah no i i i i but i think coming back to the you know stuff gets better 217 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:54,800 over time and stuff gets worse over time uh what are your thoughts on what still i feel like is the 218 00:22:54,800 --> 00:23:01,340 main criticism in in bitcoin especially from outsiders but also also like some some people 219 00:23:01,340 --> 00:23:06,720 that know a lot about bitcoin will tell you that you know mining is centralized lightning will centralize 220 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:13,980 over time uh um like cashew is a terrible idea because who will run the mints and we'll only have 221 00:23:13,980 --> 00:23:18,720 a couple of big mints that they will be like banks or what have you what's your what's your response to 222 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:26,760 all of that i mean um i let's steal minute for a second uh with lightning i think we have a good 223 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:34,340 example of a system where the network effect again plays uh has a strong strong effect on how the how the 224 00:23:34,340 --> 00:23:41,640 system develops in you know this in network theory the stronger hub becomes the more efficient the system 225 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,940 becomes right so there is an incentive to centralize in lightning this is just simply 226 00:23:45,940 --> 00:23:54,100 true and we've been seeing it and you can measure it in in lightning and you see it happen but the the 227 00:23:54,100 --> 00:24:03,660 the important point in lightning is that it allows you to participate in the system without asking for 228 00:24:03,660 --> 00:24:07,780 anyone's permission yeah and i know this phrase is being said over and over again permission that's lost 229 00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:13,460 its meaning yeah it's being said over and over again but i just want to you know make this more 230 00:24:13,460 --> 00:24:19,300 concrete and uh how this and make this more concrete and show how this specifically applies to lightning 231 00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:28,780 as as an l2 system also different from others lightning is the only thing that we have that invites 232 00:24:28,780 --> 00:24:35,440 everyone to join without signing up anywhere so you can spin anyone invites anyone anyone anyone's 233 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:41,140 join we know mathematically impossible to invite everyone yes correct like if i said everyone then i 234 00:24:41,140 --> 00:24:49,840 need to correct myself there so um lightning is the only decentralized layer two system so even if 235 00:24:49,840 --> 00:25:00,880 the the incentives drive it slowly towards decentralization uh sorry drive it mildly to centralization 236 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:07,460 that means that doesn't mean that you cannot run your own node and connect to the system and 237 00:25:07,460 --> 00:25:11,620 offer an alternative to a subsystem or something like that i think there is also an important 238 00:25:11,620 --> 00:25:18,720 difference between a centralizing force and a monopolizing force right because if you fuck up 239 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,940 you're dead immediately and someone else will take your place and that's not true in the monopoly 240 00:25:22,940 --> 00:25:28,880 but even if you're the biggest player and so on oh my lord we're good we're almost getting run over 241 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:35,900 we're actually getting run over by a truck we are still alive all right okay thank you 242 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:42,800 so yeah this is this is the exciting thing about recording a podcast in the wild that's why that's why 243 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:48,140 that's why most people uh are are pusses and build a studio and hide in the studio no no we don't need 244 00:25:48,140 --> 00:25:51,200 they can't take the the jungle of the street 245 00:25:51,200 --> 00:26:00,700 but yeah i think i think that's an and the reason why i want to have all these conversations is because 246 00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:06,040 again i feel like we are missing the vocabulary the right way to talk about those things because 247 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:11,260 there is a big difference between between centralization and monopolization there is a big difference 248 00:26:11,260 --> 00:26:17,980 just like for example like just two days ago we talked about um custodians and so on and it's the 249 00:26:17,980 --> 00:26:24,640 first time i i stumbled into the phrase of a blinded custodian a blinded custodian is distinctly 250 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:30,240 different from a regular custodian and i think i think just having that word just having that phrase 251 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,540 blinded custodian makes it so much easier for me to talk about those things and think through these 252 00:26:34,540 --> 00:26:40,500 things and so so i i think you you hit on something let's take the example of cashew there 253 00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:48,340 uh because like that's kind of that was the dream for such a long time is okay so we have custodians 254 00:26:48,340 --> 00:26:52,900 we have blinded custodians we can talk about the specific meaning of the blinded custodian later 255 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:58,520 but you know an e-cash system with a blinded custodian that offers you great privacy 256 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:06,420 with a single entity that gives you that service let's say a bank a one single bank would 257 00:27:06,420 --> 00:27:13,360 would develop like an e-cash system and provide this for their users that bank could fuck up it 258 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:19,900 could blow up it could fractionally fractional do fractional reserve and then like all its users 259 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:27,640 would be you know left holding the bag for example so it could just break very easily what we have 260 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:34,500 tried to do and what i think we're we're really you know achieving at this point is to allow anyone 261 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:42,080 to spin up an alternative system if they want cashew is super easy to deploy and it really like the the 262 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:47,540 only thing that you need is a lightning note and you can become uh you can spin up a custodian or a 263 00:27:47,540 --> 00:27:53,040 service and offer it to all the users what we've done like none of the cashew wallets out there 264 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:58,340 assume that you're going to use a single mint yeah for example all of them kind of assume that there 265 00:27:58,340 --> 00:28:03,400 will be many different mints and you can connect multiple mints to your single wallet and that's 266 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:09,420 exactly what we've been seeing like there are 30 to 40 different mints out there run by people and 267 00:28:09,420 --> 00:28:15,700 like some of them will blow up some of them will fractional reserve some of them will rock their 268 00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:20,060 users i'm sorry there's like no way to prevent it it's a custodian system but the thing is like there 269 00:28:20,060 --> 00:28:26,820 are 39 different mints out there still alive yeah and even if that happens like a small part of the 270 00:28:26,820 --> 00:28:32,700 system breaks but the entire system keeps growing yeah and like that's what we're trying to achieve 271 00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:37,140 like even and it's the same principle everywhere right like if one bitcoin note goes down it doesn't 272 00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:41,200 matter if one lightning note goes down it doesn't matter if one computer on the internet goes down it 273 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:47,120 doesn't matter and so on and so forth yes and i think that i mean that's what to my mind the the 274 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:53,260 whole nostril architecture it's so simple and so ingenious because you just default you default to 275 00:28:53,260 --> 00:28:58,880 you default to you know a couple different relays and and you just blast everything out to like five 276 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,740 six different ones by default and so if one goes away even if it's a big one you don't even feel it 277 00:29:03,740 --> 00:29:08,760 it doesn't matter at all i was just asked this this like yesterday this question about like what 278 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:14,080 happens if that if that relay goes down and my answer to that was it's like you won't even notice that 279 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:19,540 the relay goes down it's like you have eight relays or ten relays in your client yeah i have no 280 00:29:19,540 --> 00:29:25,220 emotional connection to my relay if it goes down whatever man i'll just use the next exactly and 281 00:29:25,220 --> 00:29:31,300 and you can have that again relays are not necessarily blinded in that sense but but they 282 00:29:31,300 --> 00:29:36,680 don't have any real power over you and that's what we we discussed when we said like it's it's like the 283 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:42,460 data is bearer you know like you sign the data and it's almost like if you if you if you look at 284 00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:46,920 storage for example you can have a blinded custodian when it comes to storage because you 285 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,960 can you can just split stuff up and encrypt the charts only knew what's there and and like okay 286 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,360 i give you my hard disk whatever you store there i cannot even know that's also how a lot of the 287 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,520 modern you know email providers and so on work where it's just like the provider doesn't have the 288 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,160 keys to access the data so they don't know what's going on they just they just provide the system and i 289 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,160 think that's a again i feel like we're we're we're missing the succinct vocabulary to talk about 290 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:17,300 these things because that's a very very different power dynamic um than what we've had previously 291 00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:20,860 where you know like your email provider reads absolutely everything knows absolutely everything 292 00:30:20,860 --> 00:30:26,560 and if the government comes and and and and says you know like oh you have to get mr snowden off 293 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:31,320 your platform or something then then exactly those are like two different and very important things 294 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:37,160 to distinguish there as well you have one is the service provider that either knows what's happening 295 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:43,300 and can therefore individually sensor in the users or course individual users and the second thing 296 00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:50,000 is that the provider itself could be forced to to censor an individual or rock an individual so 297 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:56,740 uh the state might from like from external information that the state has acquired about a certain user go to 298 00:30:56,740 --> 00:31:02,560 that provider and say just stop this provider if you have a blind system then neither the provider can 299 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:08,300 uh rug you specifically nor can it be coerced to rug you specifically exactly those are two different 300 00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:15,780 things that the the provider can protect itself from and the user of that provider can protect and it 301 00:31:15,780 --> 00:31:20,300 makes a big difference because then it's like an all or nothing like if if if someone with a really 302 00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:25,320 large stick knocks at your door and tells you okay we have reasons to believe that you know like 303 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,420 problematic person is using your system then you have to you would have to shut down absolutely 304 00:31:29,420 --> 00:31:34,520 everything for everyone yes and that's what what like uh i mean if you know your i'm sure you do 305 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:40,240 but if you know your cypherpunk history it's like with love a bit you know it's like okay a problematic 306 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:46,080 person used uh love a bit email provider uh please hand over you're you're legally obliged to hand over 307 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:51,740 all encryption keys all everything and so you know the absolute legend of the guy printed everything out 308 00:31:51,740 --> 00:31:57,280 with the printer and as the printer was printing the keys he shut down and nuked everything and that was 309 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:03,640 the end of love a bit so a little bit of history for everyone here fantastic that's how but then 310 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,820 then you at least kind of you know you have a way a meaningful way to protect your users basically 311 00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:16,780 and you have a meaningful way of of also kind of um you don't want to have all the liability on your 312 00:32:16,780 --> 00:32:21,500 shoulders and i think that's what we what we see now happening with the next iteration of the internet 313 00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:27,500 so to speak it's user data in general is a liability yes it's absolutely it's treated as an asset with 314 00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:33,180 the current platforms people to step in and provide services for others yeah it's like you have to be 315 00:32:33,180 --> 00:32:39,940 afraid of you know knowing too much about the people that you serve absolutely so the way to protect 316 00:32:39,940 --> 00:32:45,780 yourself is to apply cryptography so that you cannot know anything and you cannot hand over anything 317 00:32:45,780 --> 00:32:51,680 and you'll be in a much better spot if if things go south exactly and and the reason why i say like 318 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,320 i think this is what we see happening now because for some businesses and for some people um user data 319 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:02,380 is an extreme liability and that's of course you know like um vpn providers and those kind of things 320 00:33:02,380 --> 00:33:08,380 and so the first people naturally that uh accept bitcoin accept lightning and so on is something like 321 00:33:08,380 --> 00:33:14,800 a mulvat vpn or obscura vpn or silent.link and so on and and i think this will continue to happen like we 322 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:21,820 we will see continue this adoption will continue to happen at the edges where you absolutely do not 323 00:33:21,820 --> 00:33:27,760 want to know anything about your users so you will accept e-cash for example it's just like here is your 324 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:34,680 user id you pay that's it and that's all the service needs to know about you i want to go one step deeper 325 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,640 because we're talking about the internet right and like i like our theme it's it's a bit like a fractal 326 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:44,860 but we're trying to trying to keep it like focused on you want to go from the internet is 327 00:33:44,860 --> 00:33:49,800 fuck to everything is fuck everything is no but like one good example that just came to my mind when 328 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,520 you said this was i want to talk a bit about internet infrastructure i think that's that's 329 00:33:54,520 --> 00:34:01,020 something that we talk so little about because we have almost like almost no power as users oh yeah 330 00:34:01,020 --> 00:34:06,680 yeah yeah run your own isp yeah run your own fucking email yeah yeah try that you know and 331 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:12,460 if you run your own isp and there are very brave individuals who run their own isp and offer this 332 00:34:12,460 --> 00:34:18,760 as a service to their local community for example local city and so on like if you can know which 333 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:25,320 every isp that uses standard techniques kind of has to know who uses your your service who the 334 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,560 individual users ip addresses are what services they connect to then you're going to run into 335 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,980 into problems that's why it's like scary to run an isp yeah and like there are countries where you 336 00:34:35,980 --> 00:34:42,140 cannot host a wi-fi for example it's a very simple problem that many people know about you have a cafe 337 00:34:42,140 --> 00:34:48,840 and you host a wi-fi like you become kind of responsible for what happens on your wi-fi because 338 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,820 because people people can just point towards your cafe and say like something bad happened at your 339 00:34:54,820 --> 00:34:59,340 cafe and now you're responsible for that figure out who did that and hand me all overall 340 00:34:59,340 --> 00:35:04,420 information like we're still at the very very beginning of what we could do there and i think one 341 00:35:04,420 --> 00:35:11,860 example of how we can fix this is you know exemplified through tor and many you know similar techniques 342 00:35:11,860 --> 00:35:18,900 that try to kind of use encryption and other techniques to to hide user data and again like running 343 00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:25,660 a tor relay that takes you know data from the tor network and and relays it forward to the tor network 344 00:35:25,660 --> 00:35:32,300 is super safe it's like you can do it at your home it's there is almost nothing that can happen to you 345 00:35:32,300 --> 00:35:36,520 the data is encrypted just because you don't know who sent it and you don't know who where it's going 346 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,720 and you can run a tor relay that's no problem the problem with tor relays rather is like the entry 347 00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:47,280 node and the exit node again the points where someone can point to and say now you have to hand over the 348 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:53,920 data or you're responsible for this kind of traffic that flew flowed through your node so i think in in 349 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:59,400 terms of internet infrastructure now when we go down the stack really really down the stack and even to 350 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:06,220 the hardware level we haven't even started that process yet that we've been talking about with you 351 00:36:06,220 --> 00:36:14,940 know social networks and money social networks being noster money being bitcoin the all services all 352 00:36:14,940 --> 00:36:22,860 infrastructure that we rely on is still in the hands of the of the you know powerful isps because 353 00:36:22,860 --> 00:36:32,340 we haven't developed yet alternative ways wherein like an uncle jim isp can just spin up a network 354 00:36:32,340 --> 00:36:38,000 for their for for their community for their village or something like that and be protected himself 355 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:44,080 not have all the liability of everyone using that infrastructure i mean to to to be fair like to be 356 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,840 fair to to our society and civilization uh pre-cryptography all of this was impossible 357 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:54,180 because we had to rely on authority like there was no other way to to build these systems and scale 358 00:36:54,180 --> 00:37:01,940 these systems and so on and i think uh also like i'm convinced and i i have very technical reasons 359 00:37:01,940 --> 00:37:06,580 for that i'm convinced that bitcoin is the only solution to like proof of work is the only solution 360 00:37:06,580 --> 00:37:14,740 to um again i have this big talk and thing about uh cryptography is not enough so you still need 361 00:37:14,740 --> 00:37:19,860 like an arrow of time in cyberspace and you need an authority that that you cannot get with 362 00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:24,680 cryptography alone and bitcoin provides this with proof of work and you basically like it's a long 363 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,220 long long argument i'm not going to go into it but i'm convinced we need this we need this this 364 00:37:28,220 --> 00:37:33,140 substrate and the only way to build it out um we need entropy in cyberspace and we don't have 365 00:37:33,140 --> 00:37:37,560 entropy in cyberspace and bitcoin provides entropy in cyberspace and the only way to provide it is 366 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:42,700 actually with proof of work provable randomness that's what you mean yes yeah and but but that's 367 00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:47,060 also how you build up an arrow of time like you need provable randomness to build up an arrow of 368 00:37:47,060 --> 00:37:51,820 it's so interesting because also you know in in physics itself the definition of the arrow of time 369 00:37:51,820 --> 00:37:55,960 it's the same thing no that's why i'm convinced it's the only way like physics works in the same way 370 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,480 all physical laws are symmetric in time and the only thing that is asymmetric in physics except for 371 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:07,980 like symmetry breaking or crazy quantum and or fundamental physics is entropy basically space 372 00:38:07,980 --> 00:38:13,360 time emerges out of entropy delta s always larger than zero yes and and and and so so so we now 373 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:18,420 know kind of you know i mean that's where everything's heading uh space time emerges out of entropy out of 374 00:38:18,420 --> 00:38:21,600 irreversible processes and all those kind of things it's the same we need the same in cyberspace 375 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:26,320 so and that's what bitcoin provides and so so it's a it's a long-winded way of saying kind of 376 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:32,500 we have to also forgive ourself and forgive society and forgive the banks and everyone else 377 00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:38,800 and the ice piece and so on it was quite impossible to build that up um i mean you know this as well 378 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,280 like pre-bitcoin it was quite impossible to build all this up same with e-cash you know having large 379 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:48,260 scale deployed e-cash systems on top of fiat would be an improvement yes but it's kind of you know it's a 380 00:38:48,260 --> 00:38:53,620 band-aid it's like it's bitcoin really makes it work as we've just said before it's like it's going to 381 00:38:53,620 --> 00:38:58,140 be jp morgan who builds this and it will be offered to jp morgan's clients and that's it 382 00:38:58,140 --> 00:39:03,720 and if jp morgan goes down the whole system goes down yeah like without bitcoin you cannot do this 383 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:08,600 in a meaningful way you need the underlying substrate that's actually fair and open to everyone 384 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:17,560 and provides kind of a you know to have a marketplace you first need physics you first need an actual 385 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:23,320 substrate where you can build a marketplace on and that's kind of how i see it and and i think 386 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,760 i think it's all going in that direction as you mentioned where where we have we can actually 387 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,760 build those systems out now where you are kind of zero knowledge about your customers and you are 388 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,920 zero knowledge about certain things and we see this now with tollgate for example you know it's one 389 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,800 of the one of the experiments currently going on where you basically you you you use e-cash to pay 390 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:48,500 for internet access and in this way the you know the mini isp basically your local isp 391 00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:53,060 doesn't know anything about you can't know anything about you and and that's fantastic because it's 392 00:39:53,060 --> 00:39:57,660 actually it it allows for an equal playing field in terms of who will actually provide the best 393 00:39:57,660 --> 00:40:03,500 service can we just please for a second appreciate this wonderful fact that you can finally pay for 394 00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:09,660 things online without having to kyc yeah i know i like i mean we're both hardcore bitcoiners and we 395 00:40:09,660 --> 00:40:15,380 kind of sometimes forget about the hey this guy recognizes us as bitcoin bitcoin is great 396 00:40:15,380 --> 00:40:24,660 so you know there is so much stuff on the internet that you could purchase and buy and like 397 00:40:24,660 --> 00:40:32,680 many also privacy improving technologies vpn as the best example like the only way to pay for a vpn 398 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:39,500 was a kyc credit card for the entire existence of the internet and again there are technical reasons 399 00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:43,280 there are technical reasons for it there are technical reasons you needed you needed bitcoin 400 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:49,120 before you before you could fix that because because before that all it's so funny that like 401 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:58,100 in the white paper it says electronic cash you know it says electronic cash and in my mind the 402 00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:03,140 electronic says already something about the whole system because you need to push electrons around to 403 00:41:03,140 --> 00:41:08,860 make the thing work so so so the proof of work stuff is kind of embedded in the title it's not digital 404 00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:14,080 cash that's why it's so distinct from cbdc and so on and and and in the digital world purely digital 405 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:19,240 world if you remove electronics if you remove proof of work you're immediately in credit there is no 406 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:23,840 other way to do it it can be just a representation of like exactly because there is no link between the 407 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,200 the physical world and the digital world yes and so you always need a trusted authority to resolve any 408 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:34,880 conflicts that will inevitably arise and so so if you have digital money it is credit money period 409 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:42,240 and credit implies identity and implies thus kyc because i need to know who you are because if 410 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:47,740 there are conflicts or the credit goes bad then i need to find you with the police in my back you 411 00:41:47,740 --> 00:41:53,520 know that's that's how it works and that's why if you pre-bitcoin if you bought a anything like a 412 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,780 a domain or a vpn or what have you you had like you had to use credit rates there was no other way 413 00:41:58,780 --> 00:42:04,840 it's it's it's like once you truly understand this stuff it's like okay okay that's but now we have it now 414 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:09,300 we can actually rebuild it and build it properly absolutely and the thing is like this is a 415 00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:17,600 like a slight philosophical take but we see these very obvious truths only when the alternative is 416 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,720 presented to us yes yeah like this is something absolutely that that thought was almost worthless 417 00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:28,420 yeah insight was almost worthless without being able to point to the alternative yeah and today we 418 00:42:28,420 --> 00:42:34,100 can see like we can just say as like a lemma yeah credit means you need a gun yeah without guns 419 00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:38,700 credits credits doesn't work yeah it doesn't scale or what what have you like you need to 420 00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:45,780 at least kyc and in order for kyc to make any sense you need a gun because like what what benefit do you 421 00:42:45,780 --> 00:42:50,160 have to know that joe owes you money if you can force joe to pay you back basically it's all about 422 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,540 enforcement in the end then yeah and that's the neat thing about bitcoin it does the enforcement for 423 00:42:54,540 --> 00:43:00,400 you and that's still true on lightning so that's i think that's why that's why it allows anyone to 424 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,100 participate anyone to participate because you don't need a lawyer you don't need an army 425 00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:11,360 like to actually be your own bank in bitcoin and have a self-sovereign monetary policy you don't need 426 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:17,620 a standing army that's kind of a big innovation let's tie it back again i'm trying so go ahead 427 00:43:17,620 --> 00:43:22,940 in terms of e-cash no no you're you're great i love listening to you i'm sure everyone everyone 428 00:43:22,940 --> 00:43:28,780 else does as well i derail every single conversation you you tend to sometimes 429 00:43:28,780 --> 00:43:36,020 go on a tangent you go ahead no no like let's get back to the internet and why the internet looks 430 00:43:36,020 --> 00:43:39,860 like it is today and i think this is also something that both of us have thought about a lot 431 00:43:39,860 --> 00:43:47,900 is the way that the internet developed due to a lack of being able to finance itself yeah i think the the 432 00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:53,400 word here is micropayments it sounds like a small part you know a small feature of something but 433 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:59,940 when you look into the history of micropayments and what people wrote about it and so on it kind of 434 00:43:59,940 --> 00:44:05,680 it's not just about you know paying your coffee and being able to make a transaction with low fees 435 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:14,860 it was seen as the way that this cyberspace like the the electronic sphere that uh that is built 436 00:44:14,860 --> 00:44:20,340 that is kind of finding a way how the electronic sphere itself can finance itself from within 437 00:44:20,340 --> 00:44:26,680 you want we see that you cannot offer a service for free it's just everything takes resources so 438 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:32,360 you need to refinance it some way and the early visions of the internet thought that we are going 439 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:38,480 to find uh a way like you have talked about this with pablo in the last episode about 402 that was 440 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:44,240 kind of added as the error code and then you know we'll find a way to to to make payments in a 441 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:48,720 couple years and then we'll we'll be able to use that error code yeah it was kind of baked in into 442 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:55,120 the assumption that the internet would grow on an ability to make payments for things online and 443 00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:01,240 that's why i you know i'm so bullish on on e-cash because it kind of finally gives us a very simple 444 00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:08,200 way to to make payments online for services that we use online in a microscopic scale you need to be 445 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:14,580 able to pay like one cent or less than a cent for some things you need to be able to pay per second 446 00:45:14,580 --> 00:45:22,200 if you don't want to rely on credit so if you want like a better access to a service and then be able 447 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:26,240 to use that immediately and the service provider can shut you down immediately if you don't pay 448 00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:32,100 if you want that dynamic you need like a bear token that can move instantly for almost for free 449 00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:39,280 and in any arbitrary amount that you want and like i'm so bullish about e-cash because in my mind it 450 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:45,500 opens this possibility of this new internet the internet kind of bifurcated in the 90s 451 00:45:45,500 --> 00:45:52,680 when everyone thought that we are going to have a cyber economy and we will be able to finance all 452 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:58,360 these services from within we saw that no it's not going to happen it's not happening with credit 453 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:04,260 cards and people do not enter their kyc data into a form to make like a 10 cent i don't even i don't 454 00:46:04,260 --> 00:46:07,940 even think that's the issue it is the 10 cent payment because it's impossible with credit cards 455 00:46:07,940 --> 00:46:12,900 and so you have to batch payments because otherwise otherwise the counterparty risk kills you even the 456 00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:17,720 10 cent payment must be a fake payment that's why every single subscription that you you'll ever see 457 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:23,180 online is like at least five bucks a month and it's mostly paid annually so that it's like 20 bucks 458 00:46:23,180 --> 00:46:28,020 the bottom is dictated by the transaction fees of the entire system basically yeah or like the risk 459 00:46:28,020 --> 00:46:33,480 inside the system exactly yeah so so it was impossible and just to interject for for a brief 460 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:40,660 moment but i think one of the guys who who wrote most kind of lucidly about this was uh i think um 461 00:46:40,660 --> 00:46:46,240 the book's name is who owns the future and it was i think jared lanier he was very early on vr stuff as 462 00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:54,040 well and he wrote about kind of um uh in the best case money flows through the whole internet and and 463 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:59,360 these kind of levies build up where we're just like wherever the value is provided like um that's 464 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,420 where the value will flow and his main criticism at the time was there was the book was written like 465 00:47:03,420 --> 00:47:07,500 well over 10 years ago i i don't know exactly when but it's it's an old book in internet standards 466 00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:12,580 and and he was one of the early critics of like the big players like facebook and those kind of 467 00:47:12,580 --> 00:47:19,640 things where basically um there is lots of value provided but the whole value flows to one central 468 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:27,060 point and for i think he didn't know uh like you know big commie and so on he thought it was only for 469 00:47:27,060 --> 00:47:32,520 for structural political reasons not for technical reasons i'm convinced it's mostly for for technical 470 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:37,860 reasons where you just you can't do it basically you can you cannot enter the space and become a 471 00:47:37,860 --> 00:47:42,780 competition exactly like you will always end up with a monopoly if there was no one else can can 472 00:47:42,780 --> 00:47:48,120 and also if there are any micro payments in the thing you still would have to kyc to receive payouts 473 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,060 and so on and so forth and it's like very high barrier to entry and it's like you get in the best 474 00:47:52,060 --> 00:47:57,720 case you get facebook points like reddit karma you know and then to to pay like to actually exit the 475 00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:04,700 system again you'll have to go through the whole you know kyc everything is so stupid yeah it's so 476 00:48:04,700 --> 00:48:11,320 fucked like it's so fucked like if we continue on this path just think ahead like 10 years 477 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:18,280 is the is the is the realistic expectation that every person will have like 50 subscription at some 478 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:23,460 point yeah yeah that's the other thing is this how you're going to live on the internet you're you're 479 00:48:23,460 --> 00:48:28,000 limited to only like 20 services because that's what you can pay for because you need like five 480 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,940 dollars minimum per month to be able to access them yeah it's like so stupid that's why i showed the 481 00:48:32,940 --> 00:48:36,820 comic with like the pirate bay you know ah netflix comes around and it's like ah i don't need you 482 00:48:36,820 --> 00:48:41,920 anymore and he puts away the pirate bay hat and then it's like netflix and disney plus and hulu 483 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:48,220 and youtube premium and whatnot and then like 10 years later he gets back into oh yeah my old 484 00:48:48,220 --> 00:48:55,200 friend hello my dear old friend i made this i made this development myself so much like i'm so in love 485 00:48:55,200 --> 00:49:00,740 with torrents right now and you know to resolve this issue to to really make sure that torrents can 486 00:49:00,740 --> 00:49:06,120 survive forever which i think like i'm such a big fan of torrent for me it's like there are three 487 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:11,820 systems in the world that i think are really well done this is bitcoin torrent and nosta you know 488 00:49:11,820 --> 00:49:18,700 torrent was there since the beginning and it will survive every nuclear disaster that we have like i love 489 00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:25,620 it but torrent has no economics incentives built in that's the biggest weak point of torrents and when 490 00:49:25,620 --> 00:49:32,660 i saw bitcoin for the first time a long time ago because also about the name overlap of bit torrent 491 00:49:32,660 --> 00:49:38,040 and bitcoin i kind of automatically assumed that this will be used for online file sharing immediately 492 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:44,320 like it's just you know we're in the cyber world we have exchange of value in terms of data people 493 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:51,040 seed data people leech data and obviously like things cost money so let me just pay for for the data 494 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:57,320 that i download from you it's a very natural exchange basically as we all know we haven't 495 00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:02,080 reached that point with bitcoin yet and that's due to technical reasons only like i'm convinced we would 496 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:07,220 we would see this already if we could make like micropayments with pure bitcoin and we can still do 497 00:50:07,220 --> 00:50:12,120 it with lightning because we cannot force everyone to run to run a lightning note just to see it torrents 498 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:19,040 with ecash things look very different if we both share a mint then we can do micropayments for 499 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:24,360 for every kilobyte of data that you sent me i can send you like a satoshi and that's totally doable 500 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:31,280 and i i really hope that we will see this so it's also just again i'm i know i hate to interject but 501 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,420 it's also it's also about rate limiting because that's like every open system has this issue as well 502 00:50:35,420 --> 00:50:39,860 and so it's not only about payments payments are a great way to rate limit stuff because the other 503 00:50:39,860 --> 00:50:44,200 way to rate limit stuff is to kyc even if it's pseudonymous and so on it's like you have to create an 504 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,740 account and so on but it's like one one satoshi per whatever you know kilobyte or megabyte 505 00:50:48,740 --> 00:50:54,060 don't pick your thing it's a fantastic way to rate limit yeah absolutely and like uh again lemma from 506 00:50:54,060 --> 00:51:00,040 that so either to rate limit someone either you need to know their identity so you can say like 507 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:07,600 this identity now you had enough stop doing that or if you want privacy which we all want then you 508 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:14,220 have no solution other than payments yeah right and that's that's so beautiful to see and satoshi 509 00:51:14,220 --> 00:51:19,680 says that the signal actually says that to himself proof of work exactly that if you want a anonymous 510 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:24,840 system where everyone like an open set of people everyone can join and leave whenever they want they 511 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:30,900 do not have to register they have no identity then you must find a way to slow them down and the way 512 00:51:30,900 --> 00:51:37,640 to slow them down is to make them pay and the only way to do it like internally inside cyberspace 513 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,860 without going out it's we all know it's compute it's proof of work and the funny thing is like 514 00:51:41,860 --> 00:51:47,420 at the end of the day you would use like for example if you would use cashew for that is that 515 00:51:47,420 --> 00:51:53,820 you you peg on the proof of work that has been provided earlier by some miner yeah by mining that 516 00:51:53,820 --> 00:51:59,860 satoshi the real satoshi that is represented by that by that cashew token so you kind of only can 517 00:51:59,860 --> 00:52:07,500 piggyback on real energy being spent and it's so clean yeah it's like almost the the universe giving 518 00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:13,520 you a signal there's only one single way that we know of like there might be maybe another super 519 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:20,520 revolutionary idea but there's only like anonymous systems need proof of work which is bitcoin or you 520 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:25,620 have no anonymous system yeah yeah yeah that's that's also why like like from first principles 521 00:52:25,620 --> 00:52:30,580 i think that's why also you can dismiss absolutely everything that doesn't have proof of work baked in 522 00:52:30,580 --> 00:52:36,260 outright it's like all that's why once once i had this insight i just i was able to dismiss everything 523 00:52:36,260 --> 00:52:41,680 else and if you if you look at the proof of work share yeah in the world it's like it's only bitcoin 524 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:47,840 so it's only bitcoin i reasoned myself into maximalism i did not absolutely i get that 100 525 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:53,120 percent and also proof of stake i think like proof of stake as an example as an alternative example 526 00:52:53,120 --> 00:53:00,420 to proof of work i'm like strongly convinced that this all these systems are like super unstable and 527 00:53:00,420 --> 00:53:05,500 the reason why they are still around is because bitcoin is still around yeah like we see it all the time 528 00:53:05,500 --> 00:53:10,260 take bitcoin out of the equation yeah all of that would collapse like it's funny because they kind 529 00:53:10,260 --> 00:53:16,800 of you know in a hidden way yeah or not to mention they're hiding behind the shield kind of all hiding 530 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,800 behind that proof of work sheet of bitcoin no no absolutely but you see it with the with the 531 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:27,860 shittiest uh uh proof of stake systems with like i don't know like is it solana that restarts every 532 00:53:27,860 --> 00:53:35,120 week and so on no but but there there's plenty that just have to kind of uh you know reset themselves 533 00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:39,460 like every couple weeks and so on because they run into unresolvable conflicts and then you have to 534 00:53:39,460 --> 00:53:45,480 ask a quorum which can't agree on what is right um like what is the actual state of the system and 535 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:50,340 you cannot know without proof of work you cannot know and then you just have to all right like this 536 00:53:50,340 --> 00:53:55,120 is the checkpoint this is like we dictate now this is the actual state of the system and then we 537 00:53:55,120 --> 00:54:00,220 continue again and that's a political process of course and so so i mean everyone should know this 538 00:54:00,220 --> 00:54:08,080 by now but but but basically the beauty of gold was to move the question of of um monetary policy 539 00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:13,260 to the realm of physics yes away from the realm of politics to the realm of physics it's a kind of 540 00:54:13,260 --> 00:54:19,020 like objectivism about what the state of a system is and yeah it removes humans from the equation can 541 00:54:19,020 --> 00:54:25,060 only be based on physics yeah and bitcoin does the same thing just in cyberspace it it it it shifts the 542 00:54:25,060 --> 00:54:31,820 question of monetary policy away from humans into physics so so physics dictates what the monetary 543 00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:37,480 policy is and you can you know whatever you can be angry at you know physics as much as you want but 544 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:44,580 it's going to be no use don't be the angry man shouting at clouds yeah they won't shout back 545 00:54:44,580 --> 00:54:54,880 so what would the internet look like if we were able to uh if we would have been able to build it 546 00:54:54,880 --> 00:55:01,020 without without having to and i i kind of skipped over this fact before when i had my made my rant 547 00:55:01,020 --> 00:55:07,200 about the bifurcation of the internet because the other path the world the path that we actually went 548 00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:13,680 on was the monetization through advertisement through attention i would say yes attention exactly 549 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:19,820 attention attention is the currency yeah and advertisement is the way to to kind of monetize 550 00:55:19,820 --> 00:55:27,140 that maybe yeah but um so that's what we ended up with the entire internet has now basically two modes 551 00:55:27,140 --> 00:55:33,200 either you pay a subscription fee or you consume yeah ads or you pay with your eyeballs or you pay with 552 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:40,760 your eyeballs oh that's nice i i hope the listeners can hear the church bell ringing 553 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:47,040 mics will pick it up it's loud enough what do you think like what what what would we what would 554 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:53,000 the internet look like first of all for sure i'm sure that we wouldn't have this you know the world 555 00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:59,100 that you're either a netflix subscriber or a disney plus subscriber and you know you just cannot 556 00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:07,360 afford like five million different subscriptions so you must kind of become a separated folk from the 557 00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:13,260 others like oh sorry i cannot watch that series because i i don't subscribe to that platform i i think 558 00:56:13,260 --> 00:56:18,700 we would have less monopolies in general i think you know like going back to a very old book the 559 00:56:18,700 --> 00:56:24,560 cathedral and the bazaar which talked about the ways to the different ways to develop software it was 560 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:32,420 like you know microsoft versus unix systems basically and i think the because we had to monetize 561 00:56:32,420 --> 00:56:40,940 attention we kind of it favors monopolies it favors like you you you scale to like a half billion 562 00:56:40,940 --> 00:56:46,740 users and then you're able to monetize and the the you know the user base is large enough that you 563 00:56:46,740 --> 00:56:52,240 actually make money and then you squeeze them and then you do it all over again i think i think 564 00:56:52,240 --> 00:56:58,380 it's not smart for us to go up that steep i think we'll just we'll just do a loop around all right 565 00:56:58,380 --> 00:57:07,960 and can i have a look of just all right can i have a look again yeah sure we've been recording for one 566 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:14,300 hour oh okay good yes because as i told you after 90 minutes my brain is usually fried no we have 30 567 00:57:14,300 --> 00:57:20,760 more minutes of your juicy brain to squeeze let's see let's see let's see you might need another coffee 568 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:28,860 i i will i will try this once just to just fuck it and just sit down and and go i i want to bring 569 00:57:28,860 --> 00:57:35,960 someone to a shisha bar or something and just go really wild just record it all but anyway i i think 570 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:43,720 i think it would have evolved very differently and i think with the beauty to me of noser and and 571 00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:49,840 with baked in e-cash right now is that it doesn't matter who you are it doesn't matter what you are you 572 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:55,380 can be a bot you can be a dog you can be a kid you can be from a sanctioned country whatever you 573 00:57:55,380 --> 00:58:00,540 one click create a cryptographic identity and you immediately can receive money that's so 574 00:58:00,540 --> 00:58:05,760 revolutionary like people it feels so not revolutionary but if you actually know what's 575 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:13,640 happening underneath like that's that is revolutionary and and if you allow people to make money things just 576 00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:20,640 change very quickly things like i think i think because with the with the kind of current iteration 577 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:27,040 of the internet you the the barrier to receiving money is really high like you need a bank account 578 00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:32,120 you need a credit line you need basically you need to be able to create a paypal account those kind of 579 00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:37,380 things there's so many people that can't do that but absolutely anyone can you know like for example sign 580 00:58:37,380 --> 00:58:42,400 up to all us and just receive saps immediately anyone can do that and so i think the internet would have 581 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:47,980 evolved very very differently just because of look at look at how the world works in general like 582 00:58:47,980 --> 00:58:53,740 how many shops are in in this city there isn't only one there isn't just like one amazon that you go 583 00:58:53,740 --> 00:58:57,880 to and you get everything there's like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of shops and there's people 584 00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:02,220 like you know standing at street corners making money absolutely everywhere and we don't see this 585 00:59:02,220 --> 00:59:08,320 we don't see this online yes without without cash you cannot like you cannot imagine a world where just 586 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:14,020 someone sets up a rogue store yeah that's why i use the lemonade sells sells there try to set up a 587 00:59:14,020 --> 00:59:19,120 lemonade stand without without cash exactly it's it's it's impossible you'll have to fill out forms of 588 00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:24,940 regulations and everything we will also lose that if we don't you know if we are not aware of what cash 589 00:59:24,940 --> 00:59:29,700 brings us we will lose many of those nuances that we see right now and i think the same analogy 590 00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:35,820 applies to the internet as well you have this you know media outlets crying out loud for years you know 591 00:59:35,820 --> 00:59:42,560 oh like print media is dying no one buys stuff anymore and then they're begging for your credit card 592 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:47,720 number so you can like pay a little bit for the article that you're paying and at the same time you have 593 00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:53,520 like customers when you do when you ask people like would you be able would you be willing to pay if you 594 00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:58,020 could without any mental barriers like everyone says yes like of course i will pay like 10 cents 595 00:59:58,020 --> 01:00:01,880 50 cents yeah but it's also i don't believe the customers in some way just like oh everyone will 596 01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:09,980 buy the all natural uh buy a you know bio raised good meat chicken whatever and they just usually 597 01:00:09,980 --> 01:00:16,240 don't they just usually don't it's like if you if if if you ask people they will tell you something 598 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:22,140 else and if they if you let them vote with their wallet they will behave very differently so so i would 599 01:00:22,140 --> 01:00:25,820 be careful with that but i think also the mistake that the new york times and everyone is making 600 01:00:25,820 --> 01:00:30,640 is they're trying to sell the wrong thing and i keep coming back to this i hate talking about the 601 01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,880 fucking nft retards every single time but it's like you cannot sell a jpeg just like you cannot 602 01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:41,160 sell a blog post there is no market that can form around a blog post because it's not this car's 603 01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:46,720 thing so i think i think the people that that force you into these subscription models they are they're 604 01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:52,180 trying to sell you the wrong thing well they can only do that because as you say there it doesn't have a 605 01:00:52,180 --> 01:00:56,780 defined price you can just pick the price out of the yeah you have to make it up because there is 606 01:00:56,780 --> 01:01:01,060 no supply and demand because i can take a screenshot of the blog post and send it to everyone for free 607 01:01:01,060 --> 01:01:07,140 and so there is there is no like the supply is infinity and once one supply approaches infinity 608 01:01:07,140 --> 01:01:11,400 market prices make no sense so they're selling the wrong thing and i think twitch figured that out for 609 01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:16,540 example like twitch and like the streaming world and also to some extent the free-to-play games 610 01:01:16,540 --> 01:01:21,100 figured that out what can you sell on twitch they are not selling the mp4 files they are not selling 611 01:01:21,100 --> 01:01:25,160 access to the streams they're selling access to a community access to super chat and so on and i 612 01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:29,480 think for journalism it could be the same way where it's like okay like maybe maybe you have tier 613 01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:33,980 subscriptions and whatever but it's like you get access to the journalist you know and you get access 614 01:01:33,980 --> 01:01:39,260 to whatever like was whatever was discussed in this thing and so on you you have to sell something that 615 01:01:39,260 --> 01:01:43,800 is actually scarce and the blog post itself is not actually scarce and i feel like people are 616 01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:49,420 insanely confused about this because they still try to sell blog posts and jpegs and mp4 files and so on 617 01:01:49,420 --> 01:01:53,360 it's like oh i'm gonna build a youtube killer and it's like a paywall for every single video 618 01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:59,340 it's like it it it does not work at all because also you're limiting the spread of the information 619 01:01:59,340 --> 01:02:04,200 which is never a good idea you want to you you have to sell information wants to be free information 620 01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:09,760 can be freely copied as well and and it's it's you have to sell something else and that's what 621 01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:14,920 what i kind of want to that's why i keep harping on it because like almost everyone is still confused 622 01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:20,420 about it and we see it already trending in a very different direction just because you it it like 623 01:02:20,420 --> 01:02:26,320 everyone real like the market dictates that but we i think we can also if you know that beforehand 624 01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:31,420 you can build something that you don't need like 25 iterations of until you land on something that 625 01:02:31,420 --> 01:02:35,660 works like you can actually figure out what is cars in the first place and sell that but anyway 626 01:02:35,660 --> 01:02:40,100 long round over no no explain this to me then like how this works with torrents because 627 01:02:40,100 --> 01:02:46,080 like i would private trackers are scars yeah i would the trackers are scars it's not the files 628 01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,760 the kilobytes and the things are not scars that doesn't mean that we shouldn't add e-cash to the 629 01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:53,740 things because of the rate limiting issue and all those kind of things i but but that's not going 630 01:02:53,740 --> 01:02:58,780 to be the you you it's very it's going to be very hard to have market dynamics around this and it's 631 01:02:58,780 --> 01:03:04,020 also like metering everything doesn't necessarily make sense just because of mental transaction costs 632 01:03:04,020 --> 01:03:07,760 that's why we have flat rates for everything that's why you get a flat rate for your gym and a flat 633 01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:14,460 rate for your internet access and so on and and but um having high quality curation for example 634 01:03:14,460 --> 01:03:20,760 that's something people should and could pay for it's like it's we see it with relays it's like we 635 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:28,500 have relays that are paid i assume because they are paid it's it's higher quality you know less spam 636 01:03:28,500 --> 01:03:35,680 um higher availability all those kind of things and that's actually a service that is scarce and that's 637 01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:42,600 worth paying for but you're not paying for you know like for the notes yeah you know but but 638 01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:48,300 anyway like i'm trying to to to figure all these out again by by just picking the brains of of 639 01:03:48,300 --> 01:03:53,520 everyone it's like figure out what is actually scarce in cyberspace and the easiest one of course is 640 01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:59,560 compute and that's why i think i mean you we started uh talking about other lamps and so on and i think 641 01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:05,380 that's why why why this is a match made in heaven like especially like e-cash and ai agents i think it's a 642 01:04:05,380 --> 01:04:11,180 match made in heaven because you don't necessarily want to sign up for you know jet gbd or whatever 643 01:04:11,180 --> 01:04:17,600 with your credit card and and you know like you i mean jet gbd obviously is what killed google no one 644 01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:21,920 is using google anymore everyone is just like querying and and just like you know having a 645 01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:26,580 conversation with their ai agent for absolutely everything with so paul you know like just like 646 01:04:26,580 --> 01:04:32,440 coding is if you if you like learn to code is like a dad hashtag because you have to learn learn to 647 01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:39,140 prompt i really want to i really want to see us go down that road because as we said before the 648 01:04:39,140 --> 01:04:43,960 question of hardware and like hardware is inherently scarce because it's physical 649 01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:50,120 anything physical is inherently scarce there is nothing physical that is not scarce yeah in a sense 650 01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:54,400 like you can say yeah molecules there are enough air molecules for everyone but it's not an infinite 651 01:04:54,400 --> 01:05:01,600 amount of air molecules and i don't know maybe in a dystopian uh world war three situation the 652 01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:08,140 submarine you might have to pay for the oxygen as well exactly so uh that's really why where i want to 653 01:05:08,140 --> 01:05:15,100 see us and i think like that would set us on a path of so much more freedom if we could create 654 01:05:15,100 --> 01:05:23,200 markets for hardware-based services on the internet that starts with an isp but i think the more generic 655 01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:32,020 form of it is compute as you said if we you know if we could even dream of a world where we do not 656 01:05:32,020 --> 01:05:39,000 have to rely on gigantic centralized super clusters of compute that are controlled by a small amount 657 01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:46,620 of companies but where we can actually have a market on-demand market where everyone could pay for 658 01:05:46,620 --> 01:05:53,320 the resources that they that they use for that specific purpose and you know compute is universal 659 01:05:53,320 --> 01:06:00,280 you could do ai with the same hardware you could you know do all sorts of different different ai 660 01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:06,020 models on it you could mine bitcoin with the same hardware and you know who knows what in in the future 661 01:06:06,020 --> 01:06:11,580 because the hardware itself a general purpose and yeah i mean in some sense that's what airbnb 662 01:06:11,580 --> 01:06:17,320 uh figured out and same for uber it's like okay to pick all the hotels in the world world which are 663 01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:22,700 like that like in our analogy now the big data centers the big compute super clusters there is many 664 01:06:22,700 --> 01:06:27,660 hotels and there's big hotels but take all the you know living rooms of all the people in the world 665 01:06:27,660 --> 01:06:32,500 there's way more of those and so so switching to that like in some other areas that already happened 666 01:06:32,500 --> 01:06:39,180 and and uh i think you know if you actually allow people to make money with their living room 667 01:06:39,180 --> 01:06:43,740 they will rent it out and they will make money and it will proliferate so we see this that is work 668 01:06:43,740 --> 01:06:48,120 same for uber and and everything else you know like most people have cars and so on and they don't 669 01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:53,780 need it all the time so same for graphics cards and same for hard disks and everything and and so you 670 01:06:53,780 --> 01:06:59,920 just need to be able to to pay for that and build a system that actually scales and scales in a trustless 671 01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:06,840 manner basically yes and so uber unlocked this because um it was the apps that kind of unlocked this 672 01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:13,100 like the missing link for that uber success story was our phones and the applications that connect us 673 01:07:13,100 --> 01:07:19,720 yeah but and they were able to build this empire um while still being like the centralized party in 674 01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:25,420 between navigating yeah everyone from from and to yeah and also the the payments going through them 675 01:07:25,420 --> 01:07:31,200 yeah like payments existed before uber and then the apps came and connected everyone online now 676 01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:35,460 everyone could use these services and boom you have like the biggest taxi service in the world 677 01:07:35,460 --> 01:07:42,380 doesn't own a taxi yeah right so um if we think this one step further and we want to get rid of uber 678 01:07:42,380 --> 01:07:46,280 at that point i mean again this is already happening i think like because then you have competition and 679 01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,740 you have the same thing happen that happened to netflix where it's like 15 other things pop up and 680 01:07:49,740 --> 01:07:53,680 then everyone hates it again because you actually want the stuff that interrupts and you don't want 681 01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:58,920 to be locked in one silo and uber is a silo yeah uber is a silo and we can replace uber with nostr 682 01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:04,500 yeah we we don't need the company in between that tells you what you can rent and what you cannot 683 01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:11,000 rent but you would still you know without bitcoin you still couldn't do it because uber uber depends 684 01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:15,800 on the credit card system all the payments need to go through uber and otherwise it's not possible 685 01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:21,480 like with the right combination especially for compute you can't do it because because the more 686 01:08:21,480 --> 01:08:28,920 micro something get the more the smaller the the kind of um yes the smaller the packets so to speak 687 01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:33,300 that you want to sell uh are the harder it's going to be on credit rails that's why you need like an 688 01:08:33,300 --> 01:08:38,800 instant payment system that is better absolutely and you want to pay for uh one second of compute 689 01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:43,220 you want to be able to a single second of compute and once you stop paying you just turn off the 690 01:08:43,220 --> 01:08:48,280 computer and i think the last step that's missing and that's coming now is blinded compute 691 01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:53,780 and i think that's gonna be that's gonna be fantastic because that's we know that this 692 01:08:53,780 --> 01:08:58,820 already works like again coming back to the torrents like people exactly even without payment people are 693 01:08:58,820 --> 01:09:04,360 seeding torrents even without payment people ran sati at home and we're trying to search for 694 01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:08,640 extraterrestrial life and or do protein folding and all those kind of things yes but what about the 695 01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,960 risk of storing someone's data on your hard drive right yes and do you really want to go that risk 696 01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:17,760 i don't know but if you cannot decrypt the data that is stored on your hard drive then you're fine 697 01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:25,360 yeah so blinded compute and uh especially for ai i mean it's a two-sided coin again it's good for 698 01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:29,880 privacy for the individual user but again also for the service provider you cannot become a service 699 01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:35,220 provider if you don't like have a huge team of lawyers protecting yourself or being a company with 700 01:09:35,220 --> 01:09:40,720 the resources of that but once you cannot look into what's happening the risk basically goes to zero 701 01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:44,360 there is nothing you could have done and nothing you can be coerced to 702 01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:51,840 yeah and i how how far along do you think are we i i i know that you know a little bit about the 703 01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:56,780 you know zero knowledge compute stuff and all those kind of things i know very very little uh the only 704 01:09:56,780 --> 01:10:04,040 thing that i know is that a lot of you know very smart people are currently looking into this working 705 01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:10,920 on this and also trying to wet this stuff with nostr dvms yeah which i think is going to be 706 01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:17,380 quite oh i think i think zero knowledge computation is going to be like the you know the next thing 707 01:10:17,380 --> 01:10:25,380 it's like what we have with bitcoin and what it feels like is happening now with ai i think the next 708 01:10:25,380 --> 01:10:31,640 step looking like 10 years ahead or something is going to be zero knowledge compute because it it's a 709 01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:38,420 whole new paradigm of compute it basically like a summary is you can make computations on a machine 710 01:10:38,420 --> 01:10:43,380 where the machine itself doesn't know what's being computed and this sounds like but you can prove 711 01:10:43,380 --> 01:10:48,380 that it's right right you can prove that it's right and you can do crazy things with it like one 712 01:10:48,380 --> 01:10:56,780 thing that for example i i can imagine us seeing at some point is you know you can make unruggable 713 01:10:56,780 --> 01:11:03,040 compute in a sense you can pay for someone to calculate something for you but you know that they 714 01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:08,280 couldn't have manipulated the calculation yeah and that's like a very very important point especially 715 01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:13,300 if you want to rely on these services right so you cannot let's say i don't know which is what we 716 01:11:13,300 --> 01:11:17,040 already use on the nostril and the bitcoin side just with cryptographic signatures basically you know 717 01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:22,480 that you you yes but that's the static data yeah yeah exactly you can attest to the to the static 718 01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:27,920 data that comes from the same from the correct source and hasn't been tampered with but how that data was 719 01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:32,660 computed we cannot prove that yet yeah so with zero knowledge compute like i just want to make an 720 01:11:32,660 --> 01:11:38,460 example with uh with what we are looking into for cashier right now so in cashier we have i hope 721 01:11:38,460 --> 01:11:43,240 this is not too technical we have like spending conditions in cashier so it's it's similar to a 722 01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:49,440 bitcoin spending condition so uh i pay you a coin and you can only you can only withdraw that coin or 723 01:11:49,440 --> 01:11:56,120 receive that coin if you know the uh the result of a secret like of a riddle for example you have to 724 01:11:56,120 --> 01:12:00,780 for example sign it with your private key or something like that yeah so that's how that's 725 01:12:00,780 --> 01:12:05,600 also how you can lock e-cash to an endpub right exactly like we call that pay to public key and we 726 01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,920 have another spending condition which is called an htlc a hash time lock contract it works the same way 727 01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:14,960 as an htlc in bitcoin so you can only spend the coin if you know the pre-image to a hash or after a 728 01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:20,160 time lock you can withdraw it so we have two different spending conditions in in cashier and people 729 01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:24,880 always ask us like hey can we not add a third one and this idea and that idea and like all these cool 730 01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:29,880 ideas of how to make more spending conditions but we have the problem in cashier that we want 731 01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:36,460 incredible privacy so the more ways you add to spend the coin the worse the privacy for everyone 732 01:12:36,460 --> 01:12:42,780 else becomes you make the unknown sets smaller and smaller because the mint needs to execute the 733 01:12:42,780 --> 01:12:47,560 spending condition and so it needs to see the spending condition so like it's a complicated way 734 01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:53,520 of saying if the two of us have a contract of how to spend a coin we need to show the mint the 735 01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:58,300 contract and your signature for example on top of that and the mint would look at the contract and 736 01:12:58,300 --> 01:13:04,100 see like public key a public key b and time log and blah blah blah okay it's valid you can get the 737 01:13:04,100 --> 01:13:10,040 coin right so that's how it works today with a what we've been looking into is a zero knowledge 738 01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:17,320 spending condition and this is this is based on work by people at startware who have built a vm called 739 01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:25,900 cairo and in cairo cairo is a vm in which you can build uh spending conditions or programs in zero 740 01:13:25,900 --> 01:13:32,820 knowledge what that means is that you write normal code and you can then execute this code and while 741 01:13:32,820 --> 01:13:39,080 executing you can also produce a proof that you have correctly executed the code so basically i could 742 01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:44,280 give you the proof after executing the program i could give you the proof without showing you the 743 01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:48,800 program i can prove to you that i have executed it correctly yeah yeah and like that's the magic 744 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:55,180 point so getting back to cashew what we want want to see at at some point is a spending condition that 745 01:13:55,180 --> 01:14:01,500 is zero knowledge so that you and me can make a contract and you can say like i want a signature 746 01:14:01,500 --> 01:14:06,780 from this public key i want time to has passed until this point and so on and so forth i want the moon 747 01:14:06,780 --> 01:14:13,140 to be in a special position and the weather in in madeira to be this and that degree like all these 748 01:14:13,140 --> 01:14:18,400 different uh variables inside there which make it a very specific spending condition which means it's 749 01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:24,080 very bad for privacy if we would release this spending condition to the mint and what what you 750 01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:29,540 can do instead with zero knowledge compute is we can agree on that very complicated contract you and me 751 01:14:29,540 --> 01:14:36,100 and then we can put it into cairo and produce a proof that we have correctly executed the proof and now we 752 01:14:36,100 --> 01:14:42,300 can go to the mint and say hey mint me and this other user have come to an agreement of a certain 753 01:14:42,300 --> 01:14:46,760 contract and we are not going to show you the contract but we're just going to show you that 754 01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:51,320 we have correctly executed the contract without even telling you what the specific details are 755 01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:56,780 and the mint can then verify this proof and say okay you guys seem to agree so you can make the 756 01:14:56,780 --> 01:15:03,640 transaction so this is one example of how you can make a computation applied to cashew where we don't 757 01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:10,500 have to tell the the verifier which is in this case the mint what we actually did so coming back to 758 01:15:10,500 --> 01:15:17,960 the earlier example if i could rent a piece of compute from a server and i could just tell it 759 01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:26,180 you know i want to compute uh some kind of operation on my data set that is like a for example it's a 760 01:15:26,180 --> 01:15:29,780 secret data set i'm a company with secrets or something like that i don't want to share the 761 01:15:29,780 --> 01:15:36,460 data set but i still want you to make a computation on the data set i could give that to you in a form 762 01:15:36,460 --> 01:15:42,480 that is hidden so it's this is called you know sometimes homomorphic encryption but you can do 763 01:15:42,480 --> 01:15:49,140 operations on that and give me the results and i can verify that you've done the correct operations 764 01:15:49,140 --> 01:15:55,400 on top of it without me ever showing you what the data was yeah so i know this all sounds a bit weird 765 01:15:55,400 --> 01:16:01,980 and crazy and zero knowledge proofs are weird and crazy but they open up a whole new world of 766 01:16:01,980 --> 01:16:08,080 computation so i want to end this monologue with one vision that i really want to see in like 10 767 01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:16,920 years is we today rely on hardware security modules to make sure that our hardware has not been 768 01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:21,700 tempered with this is in bitcoin hardware wallace this is sometimes also in phones these days and so 769 01:16:21,700 --> 01:16:29,760 on so forth i can see a future where we carry a phone in our pocket that runs the os in a zero 770 01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:38,360 knowledge vm and at the same time produces a proof that the vm executed the code of the os correctly 771 01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:43,740 and some other part of it that checks this so we can look in the moment where someone tampers with 772 01:16:43,740 --> 01:16:50,060 your phone you can immediately detect that something has gone wrong without relying on specific hardware 773 01:16:50,060 --> 01:16:54,860 that again relies on the fact that no one can look into the hardware like a hardware security module 774 01:16:54,860 --> 01:17:03,460 so yeah zero knowledge is definitely going to have like a massive effect on things how we can prove 775 01:17:03,460 --> 01:17:08,880 things in cyberspace without showing what we prove which is a condition for most of the things that we 776 01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:14,080 want to that we want to do like we have so much private data and we need to operate on the private data 777 01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:18,560 but we don't want to share it with anyone you think 10 years is a realistic time frame 778 01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:25,360 i mean you usually underestimate how fast things go into the future so it's probably it's probably even 779 01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:30,980 too bearish to be honest it's probably too bearish that's a good point yeah that's a good point it's 780 01:17:30,980 --> 01:17:38,020 especially now with uh i really feel that stuff is accelerating um in in terms of kind of also 781 01:17:38,020 --> 01:17:44,140 compute innovation in some sense i think the llms are just kind of you know um kicking things into 782 01:17:44,140 --> 01:17:50,980 high gear because you can just iterate so much more quickly in on so many things and i mean material 783 01:17:50,980 --> 01:17:54,840 science is another or i mentioned protein folding before you know it's just like you throw the llms 784 01:17:54,840 --> 01:18:00,140 on it and suddenly it's like oh okay we have new stuff and a new material that we can synthesize that 785 01:18:00,140 --> 01:18:05,700 is stable or like new proteins and i view code as the same way where it's just like you you shoot the llms 786 01:18:05,700 --> 01:18:10,620 at it and and something comes out that you after the fact maybe understand basically 787 01:18:10,620 --> 01:18:17,180 and that will just accelerate stuff things are going freaking exponential yeah yeah it's it's uh 788 01:18:17,180 --> 01:18:25,260 you know i was big on the on the singularity idea uh um in my past and and oh yeah me too and 789 01:18:25,260 --> 01:18:30,400 you know like kurzweil and those people they were onto something i still don't think that we're gonna 790 01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:35,660 upload ourselves into the cloud and you know live in utopia ever after in cyberspace like not at all 791 01:18:35,660 --> 01:18:43,820 and i'm not optimistic but i i think yes i would also bet on the fact that he will die 792 01:18:43,820 --> 01:18:51,620 but um you know big innovations happen stepwise it's so hard to predict what's going to happen 793 01:18:51,620 --> 01:18:57,660 no one would have thought you know i've just recently saw this video about uh the number of 794 01:18:57,660 --> 01:19:03,820 proteins that we have identified and this was a tedious process and people were like building 795 01:19:03,820 --> 01:19:09,180 algorithms to predict the folding structure of proteins for years and years and we had like 796 01:19:09,180 --> 01:19:13,740 one thousand per year and then we had like maybe like one thousand five hundred it was an exponential 797 01:19:13,740 --> 01:19:21,660 two thousand per year and then um we built an llm that can do it and the number of of identified 798 01:19:21,660 --> 01:19:27,260 proteins just shot up like by i don't know it's like you don't even see the graph anymore 799 01:19:27,260 --> 01:19:31,420 of all the proteins when you hit the knee of the curve right it's like it goes up and up and 800 01:19:31,420 --> 01:19:36,220 the problem is solved and this was with with the genome as well so hard to predict so hard to 801 01:19:36,220 --> 01:19:42,060 predict real innovation comes in unpredictable steps yeah so we really don't know how things 802 01:19:42,060 --> 01:19:47,740 will work out but but it's still like a lot of the things that's kind of what what surprises me 803 01:19:47,740 --> 01:19:53,900 all the time it's also very hard to predict like what yeah just again it's it's i love the phrase 804 01:19:53,900 --> 01:19:59,900 it's very hard to make predictions especially about the future you know um but for example the switch 805 01:19:59,900 --> 01:20:10,140 from ip4 ipv4 to ipv6 is still you know like far off from done like like upgrading a network it 806 01:20:10,140 --> 01:20:17,100 it turns out it's like really hard and and so it's funny that some things happen really quickly 807 01:20:17,100 --> 01:20:23,820 way more quickly than you would think they would and other things way like take way longer or even 808 01:20:23,820 --> 01:20:32,220 to pick another example um that might be actually a good a good analogy like in in in developing 809 01:20:32,220 --> 01:20:39,660 countries they completely skipped the infrastructure that we needed to arrive at cell phones so we needed 810 01:20:39,660 --> 01:20:47,260 you know like copper wires and then uh you know like the landlines yeah exactly and and i think like to 811 01:20:47,260 --> 01:20:55,500 bring it back to to to lightning and e-cash and so on it's like if if our assumptions are correct 812 01:20:55,500 --> 01:21:01,820 and e-cash will actually uh be the thing that you know fixes 402 and and and allows all these things 813 01:21:01,820 --> 01:21:07,900 to happen that we just kind of sketched out i think in a lot of systems and areas not only geographically 814 01:21:07,900 --> 01:21:13,980 geographic areas but just like cyberspace areas you can just use e-cash without knowing anything about 815 01:21:13,980 --> 01:21:17,260 bitcoin or lightning or whatever it's like you know like maybe you know a little bit about 816 01:21:17,260 --> 01:21:20,540 lightning if you're running mint but that's it but you can just build it into your thing 817 01:21:21,100 --> 01:21:26,700 leapfrogging all this stuff and just like in a in a developing country you have a phone and that's it 818 01:21:27,420 --> 01:21:31,420 you have e-cash and that's it does that make sense yes it makes sense and we need to find like 819 01:21:31,420 --> 01:21:37,660 more ways how we can accelerate the exponential growth and the use of bitcoin at the end of the day 820 01:21:38,220 --> 01:21:43,580 i think like i've been observing the development and spreading of bitcoin really eagerly 821 01:21:43,980 --> 01:21:50,540 in the past years and it is slower than most people anticipated that's for sure like most 822 01:21:50,540 --> 01:21:54,700 people thought that we'd be paying for most like you would have the option to pay with bitcoin 823 01:21:55,740 --> 01:22:02,380 everywhere by this time it's very local it's it's very local it's very hard and similar to hardware 824 01:22:02,380 --> 01:22:09,740 and networks as you said it grows much slower than people thought yeah because you have to upgrade the 825 01:22:09,740 --> 01:22:15,100 network of merchants basically so merchant adoption uh that was the first kind of you know like uh 826 01:22:15,740 --> 01:22:21,660 the scam kind of wave of bitcoin adoption oh it's all the merchants but but but i think the the current 827 01:22:21,660 --> 01:22:27,180 wave is very different because the most people that um i mean i know a little bit about this stuff 828 01:22:27,180 --> 01:22:34,300 just by being in places where bitcoin is accepted most merchants they hold all the bitcoin so the previous 829 01:22:34,300 --> 01:22:39,900 adoption waves were always like as used as a payment rail and now it's kind of uh used as a 830 01:22:40,940 --> 01:22:46,620 you know savings yeah so that's a big difference i feel like so i think it won't go away should we do 831 01:22:46,620 --> 01:22:50,940 one more ring around the rosie and then we can end in like a maybe a spot where there isn't too much 832 01:22:50,940 --> 01:22:56,140 wind sounds good yeah that's but i'm i'm getting close to my limit in terms of i think it's just walking 833 01:22:56,140 --> 01:23:05,100 in the sun also like i'm at the end of my mental capabilities but i think just being in the sun 834 01:23:05,100 --> 01:23:12,460 makes it worse it makes thinking even harder but it's nice right so that is a pretty butterfly 835 01:23:13,180 --> 01:23:17,180 yeah look at this butterfly oh wow that's what she said but there was a lady who just made us aware 836 01:23:17,180 --> 01:23:24,540 of a beautiful butterfly butterflies are rare these days but yeah i i hope that nostr will accelerate 837 01:23:24,540 --> 01:23:30,620 things in some way but that's that's what i kind of i mean i'm very biased i know that i'm i'm 838 01:23:30,620 --> 01:23:36,460 insanely biased i'm kind of like in a bubble of a bubble i surround myself with with like i pick my 839 01:23:36,460 --> 01:23:43,020 i curate my echo chamber very very very carefully and i live in a very bubbly place as well but it's 840 01:23:43,020 --> 01:23:48,380 the way i see it is like i i met a bunch of people now and i know people from online they had no idea 841 01:23:48,380 --> 01:23:53,420 about bitcoin had no idea about lightning didn't know what sets were signed up to nostr got sapped and it 842 01:23:53,420 --> 01:23:58,300 was fun and cool and so on and then later on they found out what's kind of going on and what happened 843 01:23:58,300 --> 01:24:03,580 and so on and i think i hope that this will continue to happen where you just you you sign up to obscura 844 01:24:03,580 --> 01:24:07,740 and and you just you just want to get a vpn and there's a new thing of payment whatever you just do 845 01:24:07,740 --> 01:24:11,900 it ah i can do this and then that's on you don't even know what what happened i see the same thing 846 01:24:11,900 --> 01:24:17,420 happening now with with nostr with things like olas i really love it like people sign up to olas 847 01:24:17,420 --> 01:24:22,140 because they want to try this thing and then they know oh my god there's a whole universe attached to 848 01:24:22,140 --> 01:24:26,380 your olas that i didn't know about or you didn't have to know about and that's how kind of the 849 01:24:26,380 --> 01:24:31,500 internet worked right that's why why i to me nostr feels so much like the early internet where you 850 01:24:31,500 --> 01:24:36,620 have one entry point and it was i don't know what it was back in the day but just i mean i i still 851 01:24:36,620 --> 01:24:41,980 remember the days where i would go through computer magazines and i would manually write down urls so 852 01:24:41,980 --> 01:24:46,940 you're like oh my it's not only aol i thought it's just the start page of aol 853 01:24:48,220 --> 01:24:54,860 and then you you discover this is this vast universe of stuff so now we live in an echo chamber okay but 854 01:24:54,860 --> 01:24:59,580 it feels like to me still that the topics that we care about are universal it's not like small topics 855 01:24:59,580 --> 01:25:06,220 that we care about we we care about the bigger bigger things so and that's where like it all comes 856 01:25:06,220 --> 01:25:12,380 together so nicely i really think we're getting back to bitcoin adoption as well merchant adoption 857 01:25:12,380 --> 01:25:18,060 is slow individuals understanding bitcoin is super slow education itself is like super slow 858 01:25:18,620 --> 01:25:24,700 and i applaud everyone who puts their energy into into these endeavors i really really respect that 859 01:25:25,260 --> 01:25:34,140 but what i really hope to see and this was my first thought when i discovered bitcoin is i thought 860 01:25:34,140 --> 01:25:40,300 it's the perfect thing for the internet the money of the internet it's the internet's own money and so 861 01:25:40,300 --> 01:25:47,980 what i want to see in 10 15 20 years us doing is for all of our activity where we make transactions 862 01:25:47,980 --> 01:25:53,820 online there is no question it's going to be bitcoin it's going to be based on bitcoin and it's going 863 01:25:53,820 --> 01:25:59,100 to be so much larger than the payments that you make at the store here and it's going to spread so much 864 01:25:59,100 --> 01:26:05,020 faster than the merchants accepting bitcoin in a pos system in a store here these are all important 865 01:26:05,020 --> 01:26:11,100 things that we also need to work on but the internet is only going to grow the number of people 866 01:26:11,100 --> 01:26:16,540 using the internet is only going to grow the services that you're going to consume the number of services 867 01:26:16,540 --> 01:26:23,020 only going to grow all of these things just point completely upwards and what we need to make sure 868 01:26:23,020 --> 01:26:29,340 is that we can connect all these things with a system like nostra and make sure that we can pay 869 01:26:29,340 --> 01:26:35,580 with for all these things with a system like bitcoin and then it's like the sky is the limit it's the 870 01:26:35,580 --> 01:26:43,420 the pie is so big the pie is so big the only ones eating the pie right now are facebook meta and like 871 01:26:43,420 --> 01:26:49,340 credit card systems what do you see what do you see as the next step because i i i completely agree but i i 872 01:26:49,340 --> 01:26:58,300 kind of what i what i uh sometimes wreck my brain about is what's the the next plausible step that 873 01:26:58,300 --> 01:27:03,980 we could take that someone could build that someone could do like on a general level i have like i 874 01:27:03,980 --> 01:27:09,020 cannot give you like an idea for a specific app or something but on a general level i think we need to 875 01:27:09,020 --> 01:27:16,220 bring down the cost of entry for everything as soon as someone just automatically can join these systems 876 01:27:16,220 --> 01:27:21,740 and naturally receive naturally have an identity that they connect with other applications i think 877 01:27:21,740 --> 01:27:26,460 like that's the best way we can do because that's our superpower we don't like the others don't have 878 01:27:26,460 --> 01:27:31,980 the superpower they all they need to compete something only we can take away not saps for example 879 01:27:31,980 --> 01:27:37,820 not saps is only something we can do yes that's not something that only we can do not saps is like a 880 01:27:37,820 --> 01:27:44,300 zap on on on nostra with e-cash no one can build an alternative to this system and i think if we can 881 01:27:44,300 --> 01:27:49,980 lower the barrier of entry such that you don't even have to spend a single cycle of your brain to be 882 01:27:49,980 --> 01:27:55,100 able to use these systems this is how we're going to this is how we're going to win we we have to we 883 01:27:55,100 --> 01:27:59,980 have to kind of you know get people where they're at i think that's why why olas for example works 884 01:27:59,980 --> 01:28:05,500 really well because everyone knows kind of comparable systems like instagram and so on it's it's but 885 01:28:05,500 --> 01:28:09,180 again like i mentioned this a couple of times in the past but it's like the the power that i see the 886 01:28:09,180 --> 01:28:14,140 power of cryptographic identities is basically it's it's one click setup yes this is part of it you don't need to 887 01:28:14,140 --> 01:28:19,100 make an account like why would you need one click you're in and the power of nuts apps you don't need 888 01:28:19,100 --> 01:28:24,140 an account to receive cash on your in your store that you pop up exactly and the power of nuts apps 889 01:28:24,140 --> 01:28:28,140 is like you you one click create your account and immediately like you you suddenly have money in 890 01:28:28,140 --> 01:28:32,940 your in your in your pocket you can receive instantly and no one asks you who you are yeah now do this please 891 01:28:32,940 --> 01:28:37,740 yeah eight billion people yeah no that's very very powerful so i'll share one of my ideas that i've been 892 01:28:37,740 --> 01:28:43,580 stewing on for at least the last like six or ten months or so so as you might know the internet 893 01:28:43,580 --> 01:28:50,140 archive almost went down just because of a lawsuit and and so so i would love to see 894 01:28:51,820 --> 01:28:58,220 um i would love to see us rebuild the internet archive and do it properly so that this cannot 895 01:28:58,220 --> 01:29:04,380 happen again we talked about this very very briefly over coffee that it's like it's funny how the 896 01:29:04,380 --> 01:29:09,660 internet is both forever and the internet remembers everything but at the same time stuff goes away and 897 01:29:09,660 --> 01:29:14,220 and links 404 and uh you have link rot and bit rot and all those kind of things so both are kind 898 01:29:14,220 --> 01:29:18,780 of true at the same time i think if something is juicy and spicy enough the internet will remember 899 01:29:18,780 --> 01:29:24,620 forever if something is kind of supposed to be forgotten yeah exactly if something is embarrassing 900 01:29:24,620 --> 01:29:30,620 it will stay around forever and and and many other things but just just go away so we have like 901 01:29:30,620 --> 01:29:36,220 little little fires of uh the library of alexandria like all the time you know stuff just goes away and 902 01:29:36,220 --> 01:29:42,300 and i'm i'm i'm somewhat of an of an of an archivist so so i uh you know like i'm a 903 01:29:43,340 --> 01:29:47,500 hunter and gatherer in cyberspace and i i really i i hate losing stuff 904 01:29:49,260 --> 01:29:57,580 and so what the the shift that i see that i hope will happen in the next couple of years is not only a 905 01:29:57,580 --> 01:30:05,260 move away from silos to you know uh to to bitcoin industrial to the underlying substrates that allow for 906 01:30:05,260 --> 01:30:09,980 marketplace style of doing things um so i really hope that but again like 907 01:30:11,980 --> 01:30:16,060 the issue i see right now it is related to what you said education and all those kind of things 908 01:30:16,060 --> 01:30:20,540 because it doesn't come for free you have to take responsibility for it and so we have to also 909 01:30:20,540 --> 01:30:26,220 educate users and and not everyone is going to make the jump because it actually you have to take 910 01:30:26,220 --> 01:30:30,300 responsibility for at least for your keys for example and those kind of things so so it's not it's not 911 01:30:30,300 --> 01:30:35,420 it's not like super super easy but it's still it increases your agency and i think that's why it 912 01:30:35,420 --> 01:30:38,860 will happen on the edges like people that will get the platform people that will get the banked 913 01:30:38,860 --> 01:30:45,020 and so on they will discover those things early on earlier than most but anyway i hope that we can 914 01:30:45,020 --> 01:30:52,140 so the move that i see is from a global view and we see this like in in society at large where you 915 01:30:52,140 --> 01:30:56,700 you know like uh think global act local those kind of things that people going back to their local 916 01:30:56,700 --> 01:31:00,780 farmers and those kind of things and i hope that we'll have we'll have the same thing in cyberspace 917 01:31:00,780 --> 01:31:08,700 in some in some sense um so so what i hope to see is the stuff that you really care about personally 918 01:31:09,740 --> 01:31:16,460 you can archive it in a i hate this word i'm gonna use it anyway in a decentralized way 919 01:31:16,460 --> 01:31:21,100 you can archive it on your home relay or on your like phone relay even or what have you 920 01:31:21,100 --> 01:31:26,780 and that we have just kind of like there's a swarm of people just like we talked with with 921 01:31:26,780 --> 01:31:32,460 airbnb and this kind of things like if you want to invite people into your house you can and you can 922 01:31:32,460 --> 01:31:40,140 get paid if you want to invite websites and youtube videos and uh and songs into your local relay or 923 01:31:40,140 --> 01:31:46,940 into your local blossom server or what have you you can and i think i think that's a way way smarter way of 924 01:31:46,940 --> 01:31:52,220 of building an internet archive where you have local archives that can if they want to talk to 925 01:31:52,220 --> 01:31:57,580 each other and that way i think we we we just kind of re-decentralize the internet in some way because 926 01:31:57,580 --> 01:32:02,700 i the reason why i work on all this stuff is like i just like you i really care about the internet 927 01:32:02,700 --> 01:32:08,700 i'm still i i grew up with the utopic vision of the internet i i grew up with all that stuff and i 928 01:32:08,700 --> 01:32:14,940 really think again i don't believe in utopia anymore i'm i'm too old for that but but i i still 929 01:32:14,940 --> 01:32:20,140 think the internet is amazing and i i hate to see it go to shit and i think that what i see with 930 01:32:20,140 --> 01:32:27,580 nostr is kind of like a a rebirth where where it aims for amazing again and to me like nostr feels 931 01:32:27,580 --> 01:32:34,700 looks and feels amazing and and i i hope that like with the right ideas basically and with the right 932 01:32:34,700 --> 01:32:39,980 principles and morals embedded in the whole thing i really think we can get one step closer to the 933 01:32:39,980 --> 01:32:44,300 vision that the early internet people had it's again it's not going to be utopia again it's like and 934 01:32:44,300 --> 01:32:48,780 there's going to be like terrible side effects and other things as well like i know that much 935 01:32:48,780 --> 01:32:53,420 we learned so much i know that i know that stuff was going to be shit as well but still i i think i 936 01:32:53,420 --> 01:32:59,740 think trying to to rebuild an internet archive for example would be would be an awesome next step 937 01:32:59,740 --> 01:33:04,460 and then we can take things from there because everything shares the same architecture in some 938 01:33:04,460 --> 01:33:09,100 sense like the the architecture is universal the principles are universal and it applies to so many 939 01:33:09,100 --> 01:33:14,620 things and and also we see it now with journalism and and writing and so on i i one last tangent 940 01:33:14,620 --> 01:33:20,220 and it's tangent after tangent but it's like the reason my books are so great is because books are 941 01:33:20,220 --> 01:33:25,820 inherently decentralized it's like e-readers and so on are great too but but if you just pull your 942 01:33:25,820 --> 01:33:30,380 stuff from amazon then it sucks because then it's just like one finger snip and and the book is gone 943 01:33:30,380 --> 01:33:35,980 books are so great try to get rid of of books try to get rid of one single edition of a book if 944 01:33:35,980 --> 01:33:40,380 there's like 10 000 copies and they're all over the world well good luck and it's crazy that we 945 01:33:40,380 --> 01:33:44,940 have not achieved this in the digital realm yet it's it's insane right and you know we don't have 946 01:33:44,940 --> 01:33:49,100 it inside space and there's anna's archive now yeah we have it with torrents and with some of the 947 01:33:49,100 --> 01:33:53,980 single projects and like the cedars you can look at the statistics it's like one to two sources we 948 01:33:53,980 --> 01:33:58,940 have the biggest sources of information that the world has ever produced we have this marvelous 949 01:33:58,940 --> 01:34:03,820 technology of the internet that connects us all all our hardware all our resources yeah but we're 950 01:34:03,820 --> 01:34:10,940 still at a point where like a single server basically can burn and we lose massive amounts 951 01:34:10,940 --> 01:34:17,100 of information that humanity has produced until now we can still have alexandria moments we can 952 01:34:17,100 --> 01:34:21,020 still have alexandria that's what we've been building we've been building libraries of alexandria for 953 01:34:21,020 --> 01:34:26,300 everything yes and i really hope that we can get out of silos yeah and and so so that's why i'm a huge 954 01:34:26,300 --> 01:34:31,100 fan of local copies and because because and there are these communities of people that know this you 955 01:34:31,100 --> 01:34:35,580 know like there there are the people that build anna's archive and those kind of things there is 956 01:34:35,580 --> 01:34:40,860 a group of people that knows this and they will store their files on their own hard disks and and 957 01:34:40,860 --> 01:34:45,180 and periodically will make backups and put the hard disks in the bunkers that they have and so on you 958 01:34:45,180 --> 01:34:50,540 know and so we i feel like we need to tap into those people and make this this style of dealing with 959 01:34:50,540 --> 01:34:55,340 data way easier and it's the noster native way of doing things that's why i think the marriage of 960 01:34:55,340 --> 01:34:59,740 noster and those kind of things is is so awesome because because in the end like i'll i mean i've 961 01:34:59,740 --> 01:35:05,180 spoke about this a million times basically but i i feel like i'm a broken record but but the way 962 01:35:05,180 --> 01:35:10,700 that youtube works youtube doesn't have one server if you if you're in germany and you fetch a youtube 963 01:35:10,700 --> 01:35:15,500 video it will come from a german youtube server so so so so just to be efficient you have to build things 964 01:35:16,460 --> 01:35:21,260 everyone knows that you have to build content delivery networks and and it has to be replicated and so on 965 01:35:21,260 --> 01:35:27,900 and so noster does this by default yes and so so so you get so much for free in the noster world 966 01:35:27,900 --> 01:35:32,460 where it's like you you maybe have a relay on your phone you maybe have a relay on your home server 967 01:35:32,460 --> 01:35:37,660 maybe like a synology or start nine or what have you and depending on the context and depending on 968 01:35:37,660 --> 01:35:42,220 what you care about stuff will be stored in this relay and i think what ecash brings to the table 969 01:35:42,220 --> 01:35:46,380 what i'm so excited about is like okay let's build all up all these archives and we're like 970 01:35:46,380 --> 01:35:50,540 beyond early with all this stuff we don't even have the archives really yet but make it easy to build 971 01:35:50,540 --> 01:35:55,500 up local archives and if you share the underlying substrate and if things can talk to each other 972 01:35:55,500 --> 01:35:58,940 which which they can by default if again if you build it right if you build it on noster and all 973 01:35:58,940 --> 01:36:04,940 those kind of things you can by marrying it with ecash open it up and create a marketplace you can for 974 01:36:04,940 --> 01:36:09,500 example create a marketplace for hashes you know you want this book you know you want this pdf you know 975 01:36:09,500 --> 01:36:15,500 you want this meme whatever and and and who can give it to me fastest i'm willing to pay sets for it 976 01:36:15,500 --> 01:36:20,860 all those kind of things you know and so so i really hope that we can we can we can you know 977 01:36:20,860 --> 01:36:25,340 like learn from the mistakes of the past and stop building libraries of alexander it's so beautiful 978 01:36:25,340 --> 01:36:33,420 like we we converge on this is the early values are still the most important values it's the distribution 979 01:36:33,420 --> 01:36:41,100 of information it's the commerce between peer-to-peer commerce between people and making it's the knowledge 980 01:36:41,100 --> 01:36:44,780 which that is embedded in the market and it's also net neutrality because zero knowledge compute 981 01:36:45,500 --> 01:36:50,780 it is it is natural net neutrality in the same sense blinded custodians and blinded compute and 982 01:36:50,780 --> 01:36:57,260 all those kind of things it it leads to neutrality neutrality of money yeah yes yeah that's a nice 983 01:36:57,260 --> 01:37:02,540 that's a nice way to end it right yes it's a beautiful way to end it awesome let's let's build it out 984 01:37:02,540 --> 01:37:08,380 man i appreciate you really i appreciate you too like i i i i hope that we can make it happen i'm 985 01:37:08,380 --> 01:37:13,660 becoming all emotional thank you for this conversation yeah that was great let's see 986 01:37:13,660 --> 01:37:18,460 let's see let's see if we if we if we managed or if we fucked it up maybe it was just between us too 987 01:37:18,460 --> 01:37:19,820 that would be it would be nice too