all right just keep keep keep throwing it in all right we're live okay let's
just don't be surprised don't say anything that could be used against you oh now I
need to find my way without navigation because my phone is occupied but I'll
manage let's see an adventure I don't have Wi-Fi credit so I don't have if you
miss your flight that's on me so we'll we'll manage probably I hope
it's just gonna be a different kind of noisy yeah yeah but I I refuse to care
yeah I got so much shit for the no caring podcast how bad everything is but you
know I have a busy life complicated I can't afford a podcast low quality have
focuses the mind of the listener right but if it was totally produced they would
probably tune it out but here you have to really really you have to stand
point you have to buy the good headphones yeah yeah like there is no there's no
other way you have to be in a noise cancelling podcast studio to listen to this
podcast this is not a this is not these are not recordings for poor people you
need like no you need proper headphones yeah you need proper headphones it's just
all right I just got this with hazard actually yesterday briefly that the
benefit of doing it while walking is first of all it really focuses you yeah like
you you're just in a different thinking mode when you're walking yeah but also it
automatically stops after like 90 minutes yeah like walking outside in the
sun after after 90 minutes you're not much gas you have this will be very
different but again you're gonna miss your flight so we have like a third a nice quick 30-minute
rip like Matt would say yeah it's gonna be a good one but I just I would be you know like I
don't have you around all the time yeah so I just wanted to pick your brain and see what did
you get out of the last six weeks and kind of what I don't know what surprised you the more what
are you excited about yeah you're in the business building browsers now yeah yeah yeah taking on
Mozilla and stuff yeah no I mean I think honestly last I've I I was out of events some time
ago and I was explained to them that I'm kind of like a heater when it comes to technology like
like with Bitcoin I just you know like stood around and made fun of it for like five six years
and so I finally got it as did I yeah and and the same thing with lightning and then you know I was
like okay that fine like I said he meant I was like okay that's some of my work you know a
lightning self-study lighting so obviously you're never gonna work that was my position probably
still my position and and Nostra's been kind of the same way or it's like I was I've been there
for I mean I my first note was like two or four years ago so I've been there watching since the
very early days they're hating yeah I'm not not like the guy in the meme you know like I don't
know blah blah blah but you just hating yeah no so that's what I like to do I'm not an early
adopter I've come to know this about myself I'm that second wave you know an adoption curve like I'm
the whatever the early majority they call it yeah you know or whatever so yeah yeah no no no
the ascending left curve I'm the ascending all right I'm not the flat left curve
uh but uh yeah I even saw you know I never really built anything on Nostra even in the last cohort
I didn't actually build anything on Nostra the entire time you weren't just preaching about
saying I was preaching about zig and I built a a framework for making mobile apps and the
couple I just scratched my own itches yeah at the very end I was trying to build an audio calling
app but I just kept postponing it and kept procrastinating because I didn't actually want to do it
built on Nostra using Nostra dandies but that this time around I've actually hating yeah so it's
still hating but this time around I actually built that among other things um tell me how it works
yeah so I built three versions of that I think uh the first one was uh that you would use a
Nostra as a signaling layer to basically share an iro identity iro is like a peer-to-peer
so you just use Nostra as the lookup and for the initial kind of hands yeah for N and for
identity so I can call an n-pub right that's what I want I don't want to do an audio call over
Jason right that's not right I feel like some people in Nostra end up basically doing audio
calls over Jason many such cases but uh so that that was interesting it was a CLI and it worked
and so I could call it leader demo like I you know I introduced my demo and I walked out of the room
and then I you know on my CLI I called Paul Miller his phone his his his his things starts ringing
and you know we're then we start talking right so that was cool yeah uh and then I think there
was an intermediate one I did and uh but the the last one I did was uh oh yeah we made this thing
in pub in pub dot br cell dot app so this is like a little game where you kind of are dropped
into like a 2d six level this is this is this is like secret alpha because there wasn't demo
yet right that's like in the next Friday this is going to be demo no it was demo two weeks ago
okay but you know it hasn't really been announced although we did but we did post it to the internet
and we did have a couple of people off Nostra in our room thought we were talking about let's go
so get 2d pixel art uh level like a video game level I love it I obviously love it because
it's your idea I I always wanted to have it the the one silver lining of covid was that
udi vertheimer of all people started to organize VR chat meetups yeah for Bitcoin yeah they were
basically and the the awesome thing about it I'm not a VR chat person and so on but the awesome
thing about it was the positional audio that you can actually you have a big room like a hall where
you know someone can present something and after that's over people would naturally assemble in
groups and go into one corner and discuss something and so on and because the audio fades in and
out with depending on where you are yeah like that's a killer feature because the the twitter
spaces and all those kind of things um what was the other thing called before twitter spaces came
clubhouse yeah exactly that that's just like one big room and everyone everyone has the same
it's like 50 people yeah it encourages like a certain type of like attention seeking yeah and
and because because if you're the loudest person in the room you're gonna talk yeah and
but if you have positional audio that's very different because the people that are still in the
same room yeah can kind of you know hide away in the corner a little bit you can still hear the
other person but very stupid yeah and you can just have a separate conversation yeah and I love
that I didn't know that that to me that was the killer feature of VR chat that's like that's
that's so fantastic fuck all that you know very so I can press up as a dragon and so I mean
you know that has it's that has its use as well for many people but it's not for the rough for the
rest people yeah all right but but it's uninteresting to me and but the positional audio is really
interesting because I want to have a place to hang out it used to be a big gamer and we had
our mobile servers and so on and the way it's traditionally solved is just with multiple rooms
but it's all the same audio level and so I know the input thing doesn't have the positional audio
yet but I will I will personally wipe code that if I have to I'll send a PR so I'm super excited
about it yeah so the yeah so if you haven't gone to the audience to the listeners at home as
Norma donald would say you go there and explain it yeah let me explain that after the audience at
home can you tell can you explain to the audience what what audio is yeah do you know what a room is
explain to the people what a room is yeah so yeah so it's like it's like a game like a little
game level you get dropped in if you're in the same there's two rooms if you're in the same room
you can hear other people right and it's just bird's eye view it's indeed yeah too and the
cool thing about it is that it's usually used like WebRTC for this and like I kind of the
maybe it's the end we'll get why I started building a browser but like you know one of my
concerns is the like building apps has become too hard and the web you know I also kind of feel like
the web is dying like you know like the last time Google Chrome like blocked ad blockers I just
didn't bother installing one I just don't go to the websites really anymore so I just like I
really feel that the web is dead yeah I mean that dead internet dead web like the web itself is dead
I mean people here where people hang out you're definitely right and for me as well I mean I
spend most of my own time yeah all Noster in my Noster period yeah let me let me finish this
though so like so like I I've been sort of exploring this like WebRTC is this crazy thing I probably
complained about this last time it's like Google Meet Google built Google Meet right and they
basically shipped their app as a web standard and it's so complicated that Safari and Firefox
couldn't even implement it they just shipped Google's code yeah it's just it's so insane
that that happened I have no idea I need to like research how this even happened
but it's like this big thing there's no there's no configurability to it it's just like you get
Google Meet or you don't or you you don't use it and so we found this thing called mock MLQ
media over quick which is kind of like a new web standard that's very very simple you can do
anything from like live streaming to audio calls to all kinds of stuff and so that's what we'd
use the this one instead of Iroh which is a peer-to-peer thing this one was through these
mock servers which are basically hubs of relays for binary data so you can send some data really
fast across these relays and they're designed to be like a CDN style mesh right so the the current
incarnation of it it's like it's a web standard becoming a web standard the current incarnation assumes
that like all the meshes are run by the same company basically but I would I'm really curious
about what if we could kind of have a mesh kind of like Noster style where that you have to pay
each other to get data cross you know it has to be you know that we we fight abuse that way
yeah and the current ones have like you know JWT's with a central authority in the middle so there's
one busy one server that supervises the entire network like what if we used the Noster based authentication
right so that's kind of what we use for in pub and then I ended up making uh uh yeah I think you
can see it at justinmoon.com slash s slash ava or slash ava one of the two uh I made like a
a audio calling app a group audio calling app using white noise so these white noise for NN
encryption I compiled white noise two wasm run it they're not what what now it's called marmin run it
in the browser and so you could have like a audio chat that's like NN encryption with the forward
and backward secrecy um in the browser which is kind of crazy and I for that one I sent everything
over mock too so that's kind of a complaint I have about uh marmin is that I mean I love it it's
awesome thing that Jeff Jeff in the their team is built but it's like why are we doing a chat
server all these things unrealized like can we do something fast I want I want that's one of my
things is also it's like let's use existing technology that's like like let's the web is the
web is dead and let's make the Noster fast those are been kind of my two interests uh so yeah
those were the kind of incarnations of that particular idea awesome awesome so how did you end up
building the browser then yeah so that's been another kind of so one genesis well like learning
about this like WebRTC and just like starting to think about all these stupid web standards uh
is one of the things brewing the background I've been a fan of Andreas Kling I mentioned him on
the last podcast yeah he's this crazy guy used to be a safari uh like a webkit it's the lady browser
engineer yeah and he he he he he went into like a 12 step program because he had drug addiction
and then it was part of that he started building an operating system to self-medicate the things
people yeah man will do anything and so exactly yeah I mean it's probably a good decision
it fixed him so he he uh he did build a uh an operating system but you know it's a hobby
operating system but they built a browser and the browser actually started to become good so
they've like I've been watching his live stream it's like three or four years and you know he
had this thing where it's like you know it's it's been this canonical knowledge that you can't build
a new browser it's like that that ship has sailed and he's like no what I'm gonna do it you know
yolo and so I've been watching him do it and he's actually done it from scratch uh and the other
thing is like there's all these tools that you can go into a browser there's this project blitz
which which uh basically is a CSS and HTML renderer that's intended to be kind of a
UI layer for this uh UI framework called dioxis right so they're basically trying to replace
react native it's a rust it's all rust uh so they're trying to basically replace react native
as a nice way to make mobile apps and so this renderer you know it takes like the rendering
engine that Firefox built in rust that I don't think they use yet um it takes a whole bunch of
things from this like rust ecosystem um and it's very good to rendering HTML CSS it doesn't have
any JavaScript though which is kind of interesting so I've been watching this for a year and uh
so I've been no I've not this would kind of bring it back on my head but then at this cohort like
it basically hazarded a few other who just keep complaining about the stuff they can't do in
the browser right like no SQLite in the browser why can't I run tight script in the browser
you know like why do I have to have a domain name for my service right like all the DNS like
all the central authorities the certificate authorities all the stuff you have to do in the browser
you know there's a trying to get rid of DNS has been a theme and I've never been interested in that
but like every week there's one or two demos about getting rid of DNS and I'm like this would
just be so much like you know they're they're running their own DNS server to route around the
fact that the browser has to demand you know DNS name for TLS right it's like so that's what I
kind of uh last Friday I kind of was just like let's just build a browser and so in the last three
days I vibe coded a browser that can run a reactious counter out that's insane yeah it's insane
that you can actually do it three days yeah three days I mean this would have taken me months
yeah I think if I did it myself I don't even know if I'd be able to figure it out yeah
so I just combined that blitz thing with a really simple JavaScript engine called quick js
and yeah I somehow I don't even know how it works do you do no no I don't even want to know
yeah I just I just wanted it to work but yeah I mean it's it's one of those ones where it's like
you know I think it took a lot of the you know like the sovereign engineering was cool especially
this vibe edition because it's like we just got so many reps at vibe coding like yeah the last
thing we were discussing how many projects we started and I think for me it was probably 20 to 30
yeah you know it's like I would say a whole year of actual projects yeah like I I got
there's this thing mosaic it's like a replacement for an author master to point out right yeah and I
got nursing by it and like two days I implemented it in Zic and then I just thought it decided it
wasn't a good idea and there were so many times like that I just you know in two days
yeah I don't think starting from scratch and that's trying to trying to make another protocol
up no I mean I don't even know if that's the creator's intention it's it's it's an interesting
it's I think it's all exercised harshly it's not what what what what what
what the master did get some of the things wrong and what they did wrong what could we improve
for this is this is how I got interested in mock looks I knew about that previously and I was
looking at his thing it was like man it would be cool of an author like a binary transport
yeah because like in his version we could be doing audio calls over the master relays
yeah because it would be fast enough but I think yeah but you also don't have to I
I think what not what must have got right philosophically it's like it's good enough yeah it works
well enough and for the things you're describing as well like just use a master as the identity
layer and for the lookups and so on and do the rest so yeah in some ways it's good that it's
that the master isn't like so blazingly fast because like then people would have used the relays
like it's it's kind of nice where it's like hey this already started it's kind of a speed limit
people started uploading blobs to relays as like encoded Jason that's why why something like
blossom had to happen yeah it's just like let's not do that you know like let's do something more
sensible and so but you just you just spoke about the getting rid of DNS there was a big theme
like with no DNS every week every week there was like one or two I mean what do you think about it
like what's what's what's what there's two approaches I see materializing right now you have any
thoughts on it like I I to be honest and most these relate these things in the first like three
weeks I kind of turn my brain off because I don't I'm not interested you're still hating yeah yeah
yeah this is how I do it I have to hate on it for all right I'll ask you again you'll fix no
but then at the last one so so honestly I don't even understand the other people's approaches I
only became interested in it while I was building this browser okay previously I was not interested
but during that I I became interested and so what I did is like you know if you have an app you
can broadcast an austro event basically claiming a name right so any string I don't have any
limits on it all but like it could be dir gg right you just claim the name dir gg no dot com no
and so if you enter that in the browser what it goes it goes looks on the
austro for anybody who has claimed that name anyone can claim yeah there's no uniqueness of names
yeah sure and yeah and you'll run into conflicts and the conflicts will have to be resolved
yeah a web of trust kind of or or or or authorities yeah I want a canonical yeah absolutely
I mean I I brought this up yesterday briefly where it's like you're else at that anyway
the all we have is social handles if you look at graffiti artists or people that are collecting
donations or whatever it never says says you know HTTP colon slash slash you know double double
we went on it it just says like at whatever the name of the graffiti artist you know like at graffiti
2000 yeah and and you you will just buy the context know what kind of social media network yeah
to look him up or people people do it in a way that they they figure out unique handles and
they use the handles everywhere yeah and and and so so in my mind practically speaking your
else are already dead in that sense and what you what you're describing just puts that into
a protocol in some sense which is like you put in the name and you circumvent the the DNS stuff
the cool thing is I I have and I have no idea if this scheme is secure or not a cloud says it is
lots is everything secure
but I put TLS keys in this announcement optionally yeah so if you claim to your Gigi and
you don't put TLS keys I can only look you up or like HTTP if you put TLS keys in there I can
actually do HGPS with you with a self-signed certificate your self-signed certificate because I trust
you because you sign a message with these keys with Noster right just like keys giving users keys
all so many problems yeah you know it creates new problems especially for the users but we don't
care about it yeah what doesn't have to be something for everything everyone right like that's
I think an important thing to realize about Noster it's like yeah it doesn't have to be something
everyone uses you know yeah no absolutely and I think I think also we should we
ah right now I think we shouldn't we shouldn't build for for the mass market we should go for the
nerds and the Paul uses I want to just build apps for myself I want Noster to be the perfect thing
just for me build crafts for Maddo Del basically exactly we should be enough for these for the
types of people who are on their constantly just make it better for them yeah exactly and we're
getting there we're getting there I'm very optimistic like the stuff I'm I'm seeing right now it's
all kind of coming together and we're gonna make the DNS part and all those kind of things work and
we'll have our own beautiful browser yeah yeah yeah we're all out of time okay I told you there was
a quick one that was a quick one yeah no you you are gonna miss your flight I mean that's
always implied that's always implied yeah technology evil you said you should you should you
should build a shed in the wood the woods are alive the web is there yeah yeah yeah yeah go build
the shed and write the manifesto yeah yeah yeah yeah but no well we'll figure out the rest
the longer way I'm I'm really happy that's just stuff is working and I'm I'm excited about the
context we have stuff as well we're we're in the like this started happening kind of last cohort
and now now it's really an overdrive all the all the good ideas are crystallizing and people people
start to call us around the ideas yeah and some people are trying to to make mesh networking
working the bad away some people are trying to fix or get rid of DNS some people are trying to
make master better realize better I'm trying currently to make search better for example and
and and all these kind of building blocks I'm gonna I'm gonna talk a lot about local relays
as well because I think that has a role to play to put every browser exactly where the relays in
the browser no but but seriously you can do that and and and it will make everything
on spatter and that's kind of it's it's beautiful to work in kind of a synergistic ecosystem so
that's how I see it but yeah I'll throw you out now so I'm because I couldn't live with myself if
you actually missed your flight yeah I think that's that's there I think I could probably just stand
here and talk for another 30 minutes you'll you know like there's probably gonna be an issue with
the baggage there's probably gonna be something it's yeah I'll uh break some European water bottle
lid standard and yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but yeah no that was a blast as always yeah until
I see you next time let's leave it at that for now and with that yeah good morning and GM GM GM
see you the next time that's a microphone and oh shit my my I'll have to my my my stop recording
button is somewhere else okay bye bye Pia