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all right just keep keep keep throwing it in all right we're live okay let's

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just don't be surprised don't say anything that could be used against you oh now I

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need to find my way without navigation because my phone is occupied but I'll

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manage let's see an adventure I don't have Wi-Fi credit so I don't have if you

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miss your flight that's on me so we'll we'll manage probably I hope

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it's just gonna be a different kind of noisy yeah yeah but I I refuse to care

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yeah I got so much shit for the no caring podcast how bad everything is but you

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know I have a busy life complicated I can't afford a podcast low quality have

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focuses the mind of the listener right but if it was totally produced they would

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probably tune it out but here you have to really really you have to stand

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point you have to buy the good headphones yeah yeah like there is no there's no

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other way you have to be in a noise cancelling podcast studio to listen to this

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podcast this is not a this is not these are not recordings for poor people you

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need like no you need proper headphones yeah you need proper headphones it's just

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all right I just got this with hazard actually yesterday briefly that the

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benefit of doing it while walking is first of all it really focuses you yeah like

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you you're just in a different thinking mode when you're walking yeah but also it

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automatically stops after like 90 minutes yeah like walking outside in the

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sun after after 90 minutes you're not much gas you have this will be very

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different but again you're gonna miss your flight so we have like a third a nice quick 30-minute

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rip like Matt would say yeah it's gonna be a good one but I just I would be you know like I

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don't have you around all the time yeah so I just wanted to pick your brain and see what did

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you get out of the last six weeks and kind of what I don't know what surprised you the more what

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are you excited about yeah you're in the business building browsers now yeah yeah yeah taking on

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Mozilla and stuff yeah no I mean I think honestly last I've I I was out of events some time

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ago and I was explained to them that I'm kind of like a heater when it comes to technology like

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like with Bitcoin I just you know like stood around and made fun of it for like five six years

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and so I finally got it as did I yeah and and the same thing with lightning and then you know I was

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like okay that fine like I said he meant I was like okay that's some of my work you know a

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lightning self-study lighting so obviously you're never gonna work that was my position probably

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still my position and and Nostra's been kind of the same way or it's like I was I've been there

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for I mean I my first note was like two or four years ago so I've been there watching since the

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very early days they're hating yeah I'm not not like the guy in the meme you know like I don't

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know blah blah blah but you just hating yeah no so that's what I like to do I'm not an early

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adopter I've come to know this about myself I'm that second wave you know an adoption curve like I'm

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the whatever the early majority they call it yeah you know or whatever so yeah yeah no no no

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the ascending left curve I'm the ascending all right I'm not the flat left curve

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uh but uh yeah I even saw you know I never really built anything on Nostra even in the last cohort

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I didn't actually build anything on Nostra the entire time you weren't just preaching about

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saying I was preaching about zig and I built a a framework for making mobile apps and the

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couple I just scratched my own itches yeah at the very end I was trying to build an audio calling

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app but I just kept postponing it and kept procrastinating because I didn't actually want to do it

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built on Nostra using Nostra dandies but that this time around I've actually hating yeah so it's

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still hating but this time around I actually built that among other things um tell me how it works

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yeah so I built three versions of that I think uh the first one was uh that you would use a

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Nostra as a signaling layer to basically share an iro identity iro is like a peer-to-peer

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so you just use Nostra as the lookup and for the initial kind of hands yeah for N and for

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identity so I can call an n-pub right that's what I want I don't want to do an audio call over

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Jason right that's not right I feel like some people in Nostra end up basically doing audio

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calls over Jason many such cases but uh so that that was interesting it was a CLI and it worked

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and so I could call it leader demo like I you know I introduced my demo and I walked out of the room

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and then I you know on my CLI I called Paul Miller his phone his his his his things starts ringing

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and you know we're then we start talking right so that was cool yeah uh and then I think there

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was an intermediate one I did and uh but the the last one I did was uh oh yeah we made this thing

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in pub in pub dot br cell dot app so this is like a little game where you kind of are dropped

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into like a 2d six level this is this is this is like secret alpha because there wasn't demo

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yet right that's like in the next Friday this is going to be demo no it was demo two weeks ago

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okay but you know it hasn't really been announced although we did but we did post it to the internet

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and we did have a couple of people off Nostra in our room thought we were talking about let's go

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so get 2d pixel art uh level like a video game level I love it I obviously love it because

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it's your idea I I always wanted to have it the the one silver lining of covid was that

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udi vertheimer of all people started to organize VR chat meetups yeah for Bitcoin yeah they were

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basically and the the awesome thing about it I'm not a VR chat person and so on but the awesome

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thing about it was the positional audio that you can actually you have a big room like a hall where

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you know someone can present something and after that's over people would naturally assemble in

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groups and go into one corner and discuss something and so on and because the audio fades in and

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out with depending on where you are yeah like that's a killer feature because the the twitter

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spaces and all those kind of things um what was the other thing called before twitter spaces came

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clubhouse yeah exactly that that's just like one big room and everyone everyone has the same

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it's like 50 people yeah it encourages like a certain type of like attention seeking yeah and

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and because because if you're the loudest person in the room you're gonna talk yeah and

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but if you have positional audio that's very different because the people that are still in the

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same room yeah can kind of you know hide away in the corner a little bit you can still hear the

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other person but very stupid yeah and you can just have a separate conversation yeah and I love

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that I didn't know that that to me that was the killer feature of VR chat that's like that's

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that's so fantastic fuck all that you know very so I can press up as a dragon and so I mean

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you know that has it's that has its use as well for many people but it's not for the rough for the

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rest people yeah all right but but it's uninteresting to me and but the positional audio is really

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interesting because I want to have a place to hang out it used to be a big gamer and we had

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our mobile servers and so on and the way it's traditionally solved is just with multiple rooms

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but it's all the same audio level and so I know the input thing doesn't have the positional audio

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yet but I will I will personally wipe code that if I have to I'll send a PR so I'm super excited

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about it yeah so the yeah so if you haven't gone to the audience to the listeners at home as

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Norma donald would say you go there and explain it yeah let me explain that after the audience at

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home can you tell can you explain to the audience what what audio is yeah do you know what a room is

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explain to the people what a room is yeah so yeah so it's like it's like a game like a little

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game level you get dropped in if you're in the same there's two rooms if you're in the same room

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you can hear other people right and it's just bird's eye view it's indeed yeah too and the

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cool thing about it is that it's usually used like WebRTC for this and like I kind of the

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maybe it's the end we'll get why I started building a browser but like you know one of my

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concerns is the like building apps has become too hard and the web you know I also kind of feel like

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the web is dying like you know like the last time Google Chrome like blocked ad blockers I just

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didn't bother installing one I just don't go to the websites really anymore so I just like I

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really feel that the web is dead yeah I mean that dead internet dead web like the web itself is dead

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I mean people here where people hang out you're definitely right and for me as well I mean I

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spend most of my own time yeah all Noster in my Noster period yeah let me let me finish this

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though so like so like I I've been sort of exploring this like WebRTC is this crazy thing I probably

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complained about this last time it's like Google Meet Google built Google Meet right and they

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basically shipped their app as a web standard and it's so complicated that Safari and Firefox

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couldn't even implement it they just shipped Google's code yeah it's just it's so insane

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that that happened I have no idea I need to like research how this even happened

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but it's like this big thing there's no there's no configurability to it it's just like you get

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Google Meet or you don't or you you don't use it and so we found this thing called mock MLQ

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media over quick which is kind of like a new web standard that's very very simple you can do

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anything from like live streaming to audio calls to all kinds of stuff and so that's what we'd

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use the this one instead of Iroh which is a peer-to-peer thing this one was through these

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mock servers which are basically hubs of relays for binary data so you can send some data really

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fast across these relays and they're designed to be like a CDN style mesh right so the the current

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incarnation of it it's like it's a web standard becoming a web standard the current incarnation assumes

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that like all the meshes are run by the same company basically but I would I'm really curious

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about what if we could kind of have a mesh kind of like Noster style where that you have to pay

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each other to get data cross you know it has to be you know that we we fight abuse that way

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yeah and the current ones have like you know JWT's with a central authority in the middle so there's

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one busy one server that supervises the entire network like what if we used the Noster based authentication

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right so that's kind of what we use for in pub and then I ended up making uh uh yeah I think you

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can see it at justinmoon.com slash s slash ava or slash ava one of the two uh I made like a

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a audio calling app a group audio calling app using white noise so these white noise for NN

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encryption I compiled white noise two wasm run it they're not what what now it's called marmin run it

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in the browser and so you could have like a audio chat that's like NN encryption with the forward

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and backward secrecy um in the browser which is kind of crazy and I for that one I sent everything

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over mock too so that's kind of a complaint I have about uh marmin is that I mean I love it it's

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awesome thing that Jeff Jeff in the their team is built but it's like why are we doing a chat

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server all these things unrealized like can we do something fast I want I want that's one of my

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things is also it's like let's use existing technology that's like like let's the web is the

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web is dead and let's make the Noster fast those are been kind of my two interests uh so yeah

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those were the kind of incarnations of that particular idea awesome awesome so how did you end up

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building the browser then yeah so that's been another kind of so one genesis well like learning

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about this like WebRTC and just like starting to think about all these stupid web standards uh

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is one of the things brewing the background I've been a fan of Andreas Kling I mentioned him on

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the last podcast yeah he's this crazy guy used to be a safari uh like a webkit it's the lady browser

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engineer yeah and he he he he he went into like a 12 step program because he had drug addiction

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and then it was part of that he started building an operating system to self-medicate the things

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people yeah man will do anything and so exactly yeah I mean it's probably a good decision

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it fixed him so he he uh he did build a uh an operating system but you know it's a hobby

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operating system but they built a browser and the browser actually started to become good so

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they've like I've been watching his live stream it's like three or four years and you know he

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had this thing where it's like you know it's it's been this canonical knowledge that you can't build

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a new browser it's like that that ship has sailed and he's like no what I'm gonna do it you know

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yolo and so I've been watching him do it and he's actually done it from scratch uh and the other

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thing is like there's all these tools that you can go into a browser there's this project blitz

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which which uh basically is a CSS and HTML renderer that's intended to be kind of a

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UI layer for this uh UI framework called dioxis right so they're basically trying to replace

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react native it's a rust it's all rust uh so they're trying to basically replace react native

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as a nice way to make mobile apps and so this renderer you know it takes like the rendering

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engine that Firefox built in rust that I don't think they use yet um it takes a whole bunch of

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things from this like rust ecosystem um and it's very good to rendering HTML CSS it doesn't have

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any JavaScript though which is kind of interesting so I've been watching this for a year and uh

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so I've been no I've not this would kind of bring it back on my head but then at this cohort like

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it basically hazarded a few other who just keep complaining about the stuff they can't do in

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the browser right like no SQLite in the browser why can't I run tight script in the browser

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you know like why do I have to have a domain name for my service right like all the DNS like

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all the central authorities the certificate authorities all the stuff you have to do in the browser

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you know there's a trying to get rid of DNS has been a theme and I've never been interested in that

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but like every week there's one or two demos about getting rid of DNS and I'm like this would

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just be so much like you know they're they're running their own DNS server to route around the

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fact that the browser has to demand you know DNS name for TLS right it's like so that's what I

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kind of uh last Friday I kind of was just like let's just build a browser and so in the last three

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days I vibe coded a browser that can run a reactious counter out that's insane yeah it's insane

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that you can actually do it three days yeah three days I mean this would have taken me months

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yeah I think if I did it myself I don't even know if I'd be able to figure it out yeah

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so I just combined that blitz thing with a really simple JavaScript engine called quick js

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and yeah I somehow I don't even know how it works do you do no no I don't even want to know

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yeah I just I just wanted it to work but yeah I mean it's it's one of those ones where it's like

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you know I think it took a lot of the you know like the sovereign engineering was cool especially

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this vibe edition because it's like we just got so many reps at vibe coding like yeah the last

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thing we were discussing how many projects we started and I think for me it was probably 20 to 30

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yeah you know it's like I would say a whole year of actual projects yeah like I I got

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there's this thing mosaic it's like a replacement for an author master to point out right yeah and I

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got nursing by it and like two days I implemented it in Zic and then I just thought it decided it

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wasn't a good idea and there were so many times like that I just you know in two days

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yeah I don't think starting from scratch and that's trying to trying to make another protocol

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up no I mean I don't even know if that's the creator's intention it's it's it's an interesting

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it's I think it's all exercised harshly it's not what what what what what

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what the master did get some of the things wrong and what they did wrong what could we improve

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for this is this is how I got interested in mock looks I knew about that previously and I was

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looking at his thing it was like man it would be cool of an author like a binary transport

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yeah because like in his version we could be doing audio calls over the master relays

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yeah because it would be fast enough but I think yeah but you also don't have to I

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I think what not what must have got right philosophically it's like it's good enough yeah it works

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well enough and for the things you're describing as well like just use a master as the identity

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layer and for the lookups and so on and do the rest so yeah in some ways it's good that it's

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that the master isn't like so blazingly fast because like then people would have used the relays

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like it's it's kind of nice where it's like hey this already started it's kind of a speed limit

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people started uploading blobs to relays as like encoded Jason that's why why something like

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blossom had to happen yeah it's just like let's not do that you know like let's do something more

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sensible and so but you just you just spoke about the getting rid of DNS there was a big theme

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like with no DNS every week every week there was like one or two I mean what do you think about it

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like what's what's what's what there's two approaches I see materializing right now you have any

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thoughts on it like I I to be honest and most these relate these things in the first like three

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weeks I kind of turn my brain off because I don't I'm not interested you're still hating yeah yeah

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yeah this is how I do it I have to hate on it for all right I'll ask you again you'll fix no

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but then at the last one so so honestly I don't even understand the other people's approaches I

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only became interested in it while I was building this browser okay previously I was not interested

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but during that I I became interested and so what I did is like you know if you have an app you

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can broadcast an austro event basically claiming a name right so any string I don't have any

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limits on it all but like it could be dir gg right you just claim the name dir gg no dot com no

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and so if you enter that in the browser what it goes it goes looks on the

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austro for anybody who has claimed that name anyone can claim yeah there's no uniqueness of names

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yeah sure and yeah and you'll run into conflicts and the conflicts will have to be resolved

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yeah a web of trust kind of or or or or authorities yeah I want a canonical yeah absolutely

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I mean I I brought this up yesterday briefly where it's like you're else at that anyway

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the all we have is social handles if you look at graffiti artists or people that are collecting

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donations or whatever it never says says you know HTTP colon slash slash you know double double

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we went on it it just says like at whatever the name of the graffiti artist you know like at graffiti

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2000 yeah and and you you will just buy the context know what kind of social media network yeah

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to look him up or people people do it in a way that they they figure out unique handles and

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they use the handles everywhere yeah and and and so so in my mind practically speaking your

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else are already dead in that sense and what you what you're describing just puts that into

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a protocol in some sense which is like you put in the name and you circumvent the the DNS stuff

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the cool thing is I I have and I have no idea if this scheme is secure or not a cloud says it is

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lots is everything secure

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but I put TLS keys in this announcement optionally yeah so if you claim to your Gigi and

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you don't put TLS keys I can only look you up or like HTTP if you put TLS keys in there I can

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actually do HGPS with you with a self-signed certificate your self-signed certificate because I trust

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you because you sign a message with these keys with Noster right just like keys giving users keys

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all so many problems yeah you know it creates new problems especially for the users but we don't

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care about it yeah what doesn't have to be something for everything everyone right like that's

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I think an important thing to realize about Noster it's like yeah it doesn't have to be something

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everyone uses you know yeah no absolutely and I think I think also we should we

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ah right now I think we shouldn't we shouldn't build for for the mass market we should go for the

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nerds and the Paul uses I want to just build apps for myself I want Noster to be the perfect thing

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just for me build crafts for Maddo Del basically exactly we should be enough for these for the

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types of people who are on their constantly just make it better for them yeah exactly and we're

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getting there we're getting there I'm very optimistic like the stuff I'm I'm seeing right now it's

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all kind of coming together and we're gonna make the DNS part and all those kind of things work and

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we'll have our own beautiful browser yeah yeah yeah we're all out of time okay I told you there was

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a quick one that was a quick one yeah no you you are gonna miss your flight I mean that's

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always implied that's always implied yeah technology evil you said you should you should you

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should build a shed in the wood the woods are alive the web is there yeah yeah yeah yeah go build

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the shed and write the manifesto yeah yeah yeah yeah but no well we'll figure out the rest

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the longer way I'm I'm really happy that's just stuff is working and I'm I'm excited about the

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context we have stuff as well we're we're in the like this started happening kind of last cohort

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and now now it's really an overdrive all the all the good ideas are crystallizing and people people

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start to call us around the ideas yeah and some people are trying to to make mesh networking

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working the bad away some people are trying to fix or get rid of DNS some people are trying to

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make master better realize better I'm trying currently to make search better for example and

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and and all these kind of building blocks I'm gonna I'm gonna talk a lot about local relays

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as well because I think that has a role to play to put every browser exactly where the relays in

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the browser no but but seriously you can do that and and and it will make everything

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on spatter and that's kind of it's it's beautiful to work in kind of a synergistic ecosystem so

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that's how I see it but yeah I'll throw you out now so I'm because I couldn't live with myself if

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you actually missed your flight yeah I think that's that's there I think I could probably just stand

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here and talk for another 30 minutes you'll you know like there's probably gonna be an issue with

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the baggage there's probably gonna be something it's yeah I'll uh break some European water bottle

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lid standard and yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but yeah no that was a blast as always yeah until

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I see you next time let's leave it at that for now and with that yeah good morning and GM GM GM

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see you the next time that's a microphone and oh shit my my I'll have to my my my stop recording

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button is somewhere else okay bye bye Pia