We should start with that actually. Android, you were just shitting on
Android, so how come you're you're now in the business of building an Android
operating system? Yeah I mean I shit on Android mostly as a joke like I do I do
like it and I think I use iOS mostly just out of habit and for simplicity you
know I use the Mac computers so but like I don't know I get FOMO, I shit on
Android because I get FOMO about you guys with your you know. The control you
have over your phone is like really irritates me you know. Not everyone is
ass cucked. Yeah no no no no yeah yeah yeah yeah so I yeah I got a pixel and set
it up with graphene and everything and I've been slowly learning about it but uh
yeah I don't know my my approach to the vibe one of the ways I've been sort of
navigating the whole vibe coding thing and I'm not I don't know if it's a success
or not is uh I try to like really simplify things like like remove layers of
abstraction between me and whatever I'm trying to do and uh and so yeah. Going
down to the bare metal basically. Yeah I mean so yeah going down to the bare metal that's
like one of my heuristics so like I've had a lot of these projects like I for my you
know I've sort of moved myself off github onto my own little thing I'm on my own
little CI system I'm on my own little cloud where I can spawn VMs and this hasn't
really been a productive thing to do yet because I'm wasting a lot of time and yeah
it is AI psychotic of me to do these things but uh it's nice to get close to the
bare metal and have just a few tools that you can really leverage well and and then to
also to have a system that you can understand you know and so like Android
and iOS for example I mean at least Android is open source but it's like I
think there's like a hundred million lines of code you know I tried to build it
once and the build process took like six hours
it's just like such a complex thing so for me it's like an engineer
vibe coder I'm like uh yeah we need a new word I think
yeah I mean agentic engineering is the closest thing but it sounds so pretentious
as an agentic engineer you know it's it's not but yeah so like uh I don't know I I uh well
there's two two things like I remember like five years ago uh when I first it was me six years
ago when I first got like a spiral grant I was trying to convince Steve Lee that a
block should make a phone actually regarding your spiral grant I just read through that all
of it uh recently and you're listed as Justin's son which made me crack up yeah yeah they they always
talk to me as mentioned me as Justin's son for some reason I was just far to that yeah I won't go
there but uh yeah I can't speak too earnestly here Justin Moon Justin Sun for a second I thought we
were having a conversation not uh the entire 10 people the entire 10 people that like and and zap my
GM and GN posts we we have at least five listeners yeah like I I made everyone say like who actually
listens to no solutions that like five people put their hands up so yeah given given that we don't
actually listen to these back ourselves it stays with five probably for the foreseeable future yeah
so uh but yeah so I I uh so that's one thing I remember trying to get Steve Lee to make uh
like an android phone that like put a lightning note at the operating system level
like I thought that would have been cool back in the day you you you tried to put the note in the
phone before it was cool yeah I think you know and we still are struggling with this right like
everyone you know every you know you have lightning apps and in a sense like your phone or ideally
like you have like one server somewhere yeah that like everyone has way more lightning waltz than
they wish they had like I have oh absolutely so many and so it's still a non-self problem and having
one that runs in your phone or something would be kind of neat and then it makes it much easier for
other apps to integrate right like you know that's one theme of sovereign engineering demos is like
you know okay now this app has a cashew wallet which makes it kind of unusable because now you have
to load tokens into it yeah yeah sure you know so it's like it's like everything not only do you
have to have bitcoin but you have to get this type of bitcoin in yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean cashew I
still think cashew is fantastic but it has a different set of well trade-offs and ux hurdles
I'm complimenting cashew because it's the easiest to integrate right so it's like on that front it's
funny but it's also you know it's it would be nice to make the problem what you're describing is
basically what greenlight did but in the phone put it on the phone like like have a have a have a light
node and every wallet plugs into the node that's directly on the phone and every app becomes a
wallet right like look at how much like one of the things that primal did really well is that they
built the phone the wallet into the into the app and yeah made it really clean and look at how much
yeah yeah they're still working on this right oh absolutely now they're just pulling away their
custodial system and to be fair it's all kind of trending in that direction also with nostal wallet
connect and those kind of things where you can just connect things together and it doesn't really
matter yeah where the wallet runs in some sense yeah but even me it's like i'm i'm i'm not a power user we
talked about this before so with many of these things i don't i just refuse to
set it up like i'm just not gonna do it but yeah so that was one one to your point i am a power user
yeah this is one of our yeah okay yeah so that's that's one angles like i've had this idea for a
long time i mean that's also you know it's like it would just be so cool if if if every like this
is so yeah the other angle is like i think our first one of these we did i was talking about this
idea of like these unix you know the unix tools of nostra right like a bunch of these little apps
and i pursued that and i made this like nice platform where to write the code wouldn't have
been too hard but to maintain like to actually ship it it's like so it was rust multi-platform
right which i have now shipped or i've kind of shipped it and there's like six or seven people
building on this right now um everyone loves it like there's not a single person who's tried it
hasn't liked it uh and so like code wise more people are building on on uh rust multi-platform
that are listening to no solutions probably probably yeah yeah yeah exactly uh better looking people
more popular also more rich more rich better quads
more sculpted quads we're sculpting we're sculpting right now everything yeah yeah yeah everything you'd
really want in a person i was gonna say in a man just assuming that there's no women here but
there may be a female we've got one we've got one yeah we kind of we 2x our women participation
with this core yeah yeah exactly yeah it's a lot of big things are happening but uh but yeah so i was
so so i built this thing where i thought i could have like the little unix tools and i could at the
code level but just like i don't know the maintenance and distribution of it and having to deal with
ios and play store and all this stuff just made it not i just didn't want to do it you know like
it's not i just hate that um yeah to tag on to that i think that's the that's the biggest pain
point is the the permissioned parts of the system yeah right and it's not like it's too much work
it's just like i just i i just don't want to live that life you know like and it's also a lot of
work like getting through the ios review process is hell and google play is much better i was building
this at peak and i was super excited about it and i was trying to set up and i it's like i've been
for a month i've been trying to get this play store i had to set up an llc yeah that cost money
all the stuff and finally i had to get a duns number all stuff and i'm still now i'm
like they can't send me a text message it takes a month or two yeah and i'm still there and i'm
like so that was uh so i don't know so i've had this dream of i'm like you know one way of doing
it is just distributing it all through zap store um which i played around with some and i think that's
a really great yeah step in that direction but uh but yeah so that's kind of where another of the
so yeah for the listeners who haven't given up by now i started building like a little android
like uh i started building like a mobile operating system and and you didn't call it moon os to no
no no not yet i just called it shadow like for my vibe coding projects what i do is when it comes
time to name and i just look around the room and there's something i see it so i saw a shadow
all right so i know you got inspired all right yeah and so see i started doing this and uh part of it
is like i don't know uh i'm just scratching my own curiosity so like in the second cohort last year
we built a browser yeah yeah so that was like one of the things
excuse me that was one of the things that was like the final thing i did
and you were kind enough to release the recording on that one six months later six months later yeah
yeah um you need to keep people on the tip of their toes yeah yeah yeah yeah now they think browsers
are relevant but browsers are very irrelevant right now no mobile operating systems are relevant no so
yeah so that it was kind of a step in that direction it's like okay how could we have a way of building
an app that is you can distribute it with less permission and i was experimenting with some of the
ideas in that cohort about like you know not needing a dns name to load it because that's the one thing
that's permissioned about the web is you have to go buy this stupid name from some central
yeah authority and it's just kind of dumb and so i had a way where i could like load you know any
number of people could claim a different name and if there was conflicts you'd just see a little
picker like hey here are the people that claim the name here's who you don't resolve it perfectly you
resolve it in a web of trust yeah exactly so and so i had that and that was kind of cool
and uh and then so after i left the cohort i'm like i've been experimenting with just like how
how far can i raise my sights you know like how can i like these two we have these new superpowers
right so we shouldn't we should set our sights really high i think right we should try to like
really what's the biggest project push the needle yeah exactly so that was like one of the themes of
my when i was the captain last week is like how can we slay some dragons like let's try to slay
dragons that's why phips is cool it's like it's trying to slay dragons yeah uh and so yeah i've been
trying to think very deeply about this like what's and i'll you know also i vibe code stuff and i just
don't really want to maintain it right so it's like where can i find a project that i do want to
maintain for like five years yeah yeah okay where what's big enough that you so that you don't lose
interest after like three months well and all yeah not just interest but it's like rationally i'm like
yeah this is going to move the needle right like yeah i still feel like you know i've done a lot of
stuff in this bitcoin freedom tech stuff and i don't know if it ever really moves the needle
it's very frustrating to work really hard on something and not really know you know it's like
i think your impact is way bigger than you think i know but i i want to not have
i don't want to have the doubt right like you're changing the life of like five people right now
i know four i'm pretty sure one just dropped off
because i keep sidetracking you so people just quit
okay let's make it three that's so amazing you changed you changed the lives of three people
three people two now it's down to two
no but seriously i think i think i talked with eric case and actually about this once
and i i just told him uh because lots of people read his stuff because it's way out there and you
immediately agree and he doesn't feel that way and i told him like you're probably blowing someone's
mind right now and yeah and he just was like he never considered that yeah it really changed his
perspective and i think for for your stuff it's very similar you know like yeah but it's like i i don't
know i i feel like it could i can imagine it being like a hundred or a thousand times more
like yeah fair enough okay and so i don't know it's like that's possible you're not raising trillions
of dollars like oh may i does right but i don't know like that's not i don't know if that's
how you really make a difference either but you know like i don't know if i could do more it would
be nice to do more i actually want to loop back to what you said before like you've just been
wasting your time i don't agree by the way because you never know in the final analysis
what is actually a waste of time and what isn't yeah so that's so this is one another one of my
things is like usually i just get really results oriented i just like want to like accomplish
something yeah and so like after leaving fetti and doing these sovereign engineerings i've just been
more like playing playing around with stuff and playing and playing and playing to be in like and i
kind of tried to ship something yeah like a month ago pika and then i hit like some little
difficulties and i just immediately gave up and i gave myself permission to do that and like
whatever and now i'm playing again but so so yeah like the the mobile thing is interesting because
it's the computer interface we all use right like that's how we interact with the thing and that
was one of my questions in my captain week is like well is this going to stay the case right
if it remains mobile phones and chat interfaces with ai it's like pika and shadow the mobile os are
good bets yeah because these are attempts to make good nostril versions of that but if it ends up
being voice like you kind of interact with your ais more with voice it's like then now maybe
these are these are less good ideas maybe i still think you need like okay we're still gonna need
servers we're still gonna need proper compute machines like lots of people are getting mac minis now so
this is another one we're still gonna we're still gonna need phones as because you're gonna need a
visual interface for certain things but but to tag on to what you just said i think like i'm i'm gonna
get the the pebble watch ring you know like the pebble ring yeah because all it has is like it takes
your vitals and it has a microphone yeah and it's for whatever reason i don't know why but it's like
okay it's it's awesome to take voice notes like they build it for that and my whole agentic system
builds upon voice notes so that's gonna i think that's gonna be my main computer input system and i think
what's what has happened over the last decades is like everyone had a big desktop computer right
yeah and and i think everyone knows the video where just and everyone had a globe and everyone
had maps and everyone had those those kind of things and it all went into the internet and dematerialized
and i think we're in the process now of the computer itself dematerializing yeah and we just have
certain input systems and certain output systems and certain kind of like your brain is going to be
your mac mini or whatever at home you know or somewhere in the cloud or what have you and i think
like i think i think you're onto something in terms of for every single layer of compute yeah you need
to have a permissionless alternative yeah otherwise you're just going to be yeah and we have that with
linux desktop right like exactly the story on linux desktop is much better than on mobile yeah
absolutely i mean you can you can install whatever you can and you can really customize how it feels
and how it looks and like especially with vibe coding now you can build oh i mean the rising is a whole
yeah thing yeah just you rice your yeah and i've done that before and like i really enjoyed it at
times and then i end up back on a mac and i'll go back to it i'll go back to it again someday right
like i think it's really i don't know i think that's i think it's really cool um and even on a mac you
have you have more control over it than you do on an iphone for example yeah but you can install a
custom window manager like you buy yeah things like there's there you have a lot more control
you can install homebrew you can install all kinds of little snitch all these things right
so even on desktop across the board yeah i mean and and on windows you can install wsl right like
yeah why do you think that is why do you think the phones got into the like let's fully call the
that's a really good question um i mean one one is security right they're more secure
supposedly i'm not sure if that's true yeah um if you're a power i mean
that's the thing about security it's like if you if you i made this i made this comparison in the past
i kind of hate to make it but i can't think of a better one but a weapon uh you know like a gun
yeah like it can only be so secure otherwise you'll nerf it to the point so that it has no use anymore
yeah same for a car or what have you you know like a car needs to be powerful enough so that you can
run over things basically yeah and if it if it won't let you do that then it's not a useful tool
anymore basically so so so i kind of disagree with the security angle because
you know guns are secure as well if you know how to use them cars as well yeah some sense and it's
also i think it's also okay for powerful tools to well be able to do damage i agree with that i mean
it's just like i mean they're more sandbox it's also it's like it's simpler right like they i think
with mobile phones they sort of like like i was trying to figure out how to like find a file on my
iphone the other day you just gave up yeah like i downloaded an account a summary from river and i
really couldn't figure out like if i actually succeeded in the download or not like really hard
to tell so you know they hide so much from you so that's i don't know that's one thing one thing
is it's harder to rice a phone what do you do on your little thing oh like now that's the ios
user speaking on android you have custom launchers and everything like it's sure it's you can do a
okay what's your answer then fucking smart ass like what no i don't have an answer like that's
why i asked you like i i don't know why but it's unequivocally true like yeah i don't i don't know
why we still have so many freedoms on the desktop side and so little freedoms on the mobile side
mm-hmm i don't know i'm not sure if there's a grand conspiracy there usually isn't yeah it usually
is just okay things happened and it evolved that way i mean one one is that uh desktop is more
server-like because like most of the like where linux one and openbsd one was servers yeah and so in a
sense desktop is a little more server-like so maybe that i don't know it's we kind of inherit that a
little bit yeah and so what you want to do now with shadow is to kind of start from scratch and
rethink how an operating system works to some degree yeah so i'm starting from so the idea is like i so
yeah after the last cohort i went on a big long road trip and as i was going along i was having
chad gpt teach me about these things because i got interested so i just do voice mode in the car
yeah yeah and so i would i would in pro i would leave it a voice big long voice memo and then
like 10 minutes later i get an answer and i just play yeah that's awesome right hit play right
yeah and so i was you know i went across like south to north i went from texas to
color uh whatever what was it called canada
colorado close enough
yeah canada um and uh and so yeah i started learning a lot about like how a mobile phone
works like how how does pixel you know what are the drivers like you know what does how do you draw
to the screen how do you yeah all these things and then when that was done i tried to vibe code
this and i was like five months ago and it was really hard work like
i was having to engineer it and i had you know the lms for some level of autocomplete but they
couldn't really do it on their own uh and so the idea was like two two folds attack from two angles
one is try to figure out how to boot an android phone without any with as little android stuff as
possible yeah right so like no jvm for example jvm is the java is how the whole user space
exists but you know there's stuff in the kernel like i'm going to build on top of linux i'm not
going to try to reimplement linux i'm i'm not like that's to me a black box that i can't
i can't probably reinvent intelligently but uh so i'm not going to try and then like for example
device drivers i do not want to spend time trying to figure out how to write a device driver
i think you can solo right like yeah it's yeah i mean it's kind of too big of a task there's too many
and there's too little upside right so it's okay well i'll take those for granted
and then how could i boot a phone with just those things yeah and so i would i started you know i
would set it up so like my code my rust code at the time it was zig i was a younger
less practical man less experienced agentic engineer yes yes yes um yeah less experienced agentic
engineer oh we're fucked here so but yeah so now it's rust and so the idea is like okay i would my
code would be the first program in user space like pid1 yeah and then i would intercept that
i'd log something and just punt it back to the android one and then so i i i started doing
more and more like could i mount a drive could i you know could i could i paint to the screen
like i would paint the screen one color and then wait five seconds and then continue the boot
i saw i saw you upgrading to painting triangles last week i was painting all kinds of shapes yeah i mean
you should see what it is now oh shit now i have that i missed like six days or something yeah big
things happened last week last when you last saw it took 13 seconds to click a button yes i know i
remember that we all thought we all thought that demo failed but yeah it was just a little laggy no no no
no no no yeah yeah we had humble origins humble origins but yeah so uh where the hell was i um
painting screens yeah yeah so so that was one angle to attack it from trying to boot it
the problem is like it's kind of a boring thing to work on you know at a certain point so then the
other thing i started to do which i kind of had more luck with was i booted in android and then i wait
for it to actually boot right so like everything turns on and i'm watching and i have a rooted android
phone and then once everything's on i start turning stuff off right uh so i turn off the compositor
that's like the thing that draws to the screen yeah uh i turn off the sound driver i turn off
i don't turn off wi-fi yet i i so currently i leave wi-fi on and i i can when i try to make like an
internet request it just uses the jvm's wi-fi i see that's one of the next things so component by
component you you want to replace that you want to turn them on and replace them with your own stuff
but on a booted phone that works yeah and so it's more fun like i can make an app so so yeah that's
what i had uh um that's kind of where i got to last friday when you left is like i was able to boot
the phone and i had a counter demo that took 13 seconds to yeah to click to add like at plus one
yeah uh and then so i have two environments i can run these in one of them is like on a pixel 4a
which chat gpt said is the easiest device to do this stuff on because it's just like very well known
a lot of you know okay people have been doing this for a long time and they're cheap to get so i have
like i got like four of these and uh and then the other one is i have a keemu emulator uh so just like a
linux vm that can run on my mac that i think it's basically the same thing as an android emulator
if you use an android emulator same thing i think they're both keemu uh and so that's really nice
to iterate on uh it's just faster than having to deal with a device and i can write automated tests
with that a little easier talk to me about the the apps uh you've built so far exactly how you're
thinking about an app's ecosystem yeah so so that's where i was last week and so this or when you left
so over the last week i spent a little time trying to make an app model so um i wanted to make it as
easy i wanted to make it very easy to make an app and i want to be something that llms would be very
good at and so the obvious choice is like javascript or typescript even better because that's just what
it's like by far the most popular language yeah um and so yeah that's i decided to make the apps
oh jesus christ it's really hard to navigate
i'm gonna go i'm gonna you take the left path i take the right path yeah yeah and let's see if one
of us ends up in the mud well you see the state of my shoes already um it's it's definitely the most
interesting recording and environment we had so far yeah so it's uh you know one day i'm gonna strap a
gopro to my ankle or something so just the people can see what we're going through literally
yeah so uh all right typescript and very viable so the goal is that the apps that are in the store
are incredibly easily yeah so i want it to be basically i don't want there to almost be a store
i want it to be so like viral sure it's almost like a dm yeah the apps are like a dm yeah and on
any app you can press and hold yeah and like voice vibe it like change the color change the layout like
yeah pablo had the same idea like a year ago or something where you're just every app comes with
a chat box but the problem you can you can change it on demand yeah so like the problem though is like
okay you can do that locally but you can do that with a web app yeah but even with the web app it's
like okay you need to vibe the source code yeah and then you need a build step yeah and so you need
a server now yeah and so now like that's another thing it's like i think i mean this is what another
one like i built this whole little cloud platform where i could like spawn vms on these bare metal
hedger machines yeah and like i use it to run ci and i use it to run like a couple open claws
and like i think i could run this for like 10k users and just just i could really undercut amazon
on price like it wouldn't have as many nines of reliability but it would be way way cheaper
and dimmy for example this guy who at the cohort who's running trying to run vps's or try to run
like simple cloud infrastructure attached to mining mining uh facilities it's doing the same thing
but he actually has control the hardware so i think this is like a really interesting primitive that
if we added like if if you could assume that like any user in in their daily course of their using
stuff made a couple payments to like rent vps's for various amounts of time if it became much much
easier to like almost like ephemeral things because you just need to run one test pipeline
as a matter of course yeah right as a matter of course you could spawn
like servers or docker containers or processes yeah or all this stuff and if the average user did
throughout the day and they spent a couple dollars on this a month or something yeah that would be a
fundamentally different nostril i mean in a fully vibed world that's where things are going anyway in
some sense right because people are fine with paying yeah on demand for and if you if you explain
this if like if you say like hey this money is going to self-hosting most people are like fuck that you
know this is too complicated i don't understand it i don't want to do that me included to some degree
yeah but if you're like hey this is feeding your agent your agent needs to eat like yeah yeah i see
a lot of people will feed their agent yeah all kinds of things yeah that they wouldn't consume or
purchase solo so that's kind of how i think about it it's like if we can get agents to be the thing is
the thing with self-hosting is it comes with lots of maintenance yeah and the i think that what makes
the gentix stuff so powerful is because if it works exactly there's zero maintenance basically the agent
figures everything out on their own i think that's why people are willing to throw so much money at it
because it literally is like a mini employee um that figures stuff out on on his own yeah just get
out of jail free cards yeah and just you just throw money at it and and and you know things will be
figured out yeah so that's but that's one so i was saying like how yeah of vibe coding uh apps
is hard because like okay you can't distribute the actual infrastructure to build the you need
infrastructure to build the apps and so that's a good nice thing about like if you i mean it's still
true with my phone but like so the way it works is like you just distribute typescript files yeah and
like i have dino running on this like dino runs the app so the the apps are just .tsx files or .ts
files and uh so you can have like one so all my apps are about 500 lines i have a cash wallet an
officer client a photos app uh these oh wow you really you really transcend the triangles i have a podcast
app that plays one podcast holy these are half your users i've been producing it can play no solutions
podcasts actually right now that doesn't work but it was working at a cafe and it was really loud
and i couldn't turn it off so i just had to turn the phone off but they were yeah i did disrupt one
cafe um what do you mean disrupt you mean enlighten yeah enlighten excuse me excuse me yeah everyone
was staring at me i do a lot of things just subtly to offend the european sensibilities like
we were we did this hike and there's this group of like germans and there was one american with
them and she goes like oh you're america too where are you from are you from massachusetts
which is like the worst place to be thought of as being from like massachusetts are the worst
they're the worst of us they're the true fucking assholes uh they're the worst thing about america
worse than california and so even her american her views the american view of americans is bad
yeah so imagine the european view yeah so i yeah i just i i don't know what are we talking about
oh yeah i was in the cafe offending people with the podcast app yeah and i think i have one more app
or counter app and so i in the last week now it's instant because i'm i now i'm i i took over the gpu
all right i can write to the gpu don't ask me how but i can and it went from like 13 second button
clicks to like instant uh so yeah i'm slowly crawling down the stack what's still missing
um you think in terms of primitives you mentioned wi-fi wi-fi so networking is still missing in some
sense yeah wi-fi cellular um buttons i don't think i can do the volume buttons okay so certain hardware
buttons yeah certain i assume nfc bluetooth all those kind of things yeah those things but i think
these are all relatively doable like there's drivers and then there's like a language agnostic way called
the hall hardware hardware extraction abstraction layer well actually so most of the apis you know
there's only one so you have linux apis and then you have android apis and so for touch i'm actually
and drawing i'm actually using the pure linux apis i always try to do the linux apis if i can
even if it's a little more complicated because because it's closer to the bare metal it's closer to the
bare metal and it's simpler and it's like there's just fewer layers so i've been able to succeed
everywhere there except for the camera for the camera for some reason it really wanted to use it
was very funny i had to really fight the agents on this like they all kept trying to get me to use
the java code like i'd point them at a lower level and they always steer like this is one where i really
felt the bias of the training data like very few people had attempted this yeah and it kept trying
to steer me away from it and finally i'm like you know like laying down the law on a new a new agent
session we are going to do it this way i've been i've been waiting for them to try to figure out
some java version for the camera just so we could have a proof of concept and then go bare lower
bare metal and so it wasn't working and i finally i created a new session like i am we are going to
do it this way and we're going to succeed or fail and there are no other options like burn the boats
yeah and we were done in like an hour yeah so it's very interesting like the that was one area where
like the that was one area where i could really feel like the agent or yeah they always try to drag
you to the middle of the bell curve they didn't yeah exactly like i could really feel the pull of the
middle of the bell curve there uh even though i and and so but there we use the android c++ code
um hal's uh hardware extraction abstraction layers and so the the the next lower one is that there are
like linux drivers for this too and i might try to go to at that level too uh but yeah so for
everything that's the only one that the camera is the only one where i'm actually using the android
c++ code so so yeah like i don't know what else is there on a phone um i don't know flashlight i
probably can't control the flashlight accelerometer but a lot of these things it's like you know like
i'm trying to i'm trying to basically have something that is like an alternative to pwas on nostre yeah
and like i want the developer experience to be about the same but i want you to not have to write
like i want you to have like one wallet one nostre like one one connection per relay across the whole
device right explain if you have 10 if you have 10 apps all talking to domus relay
that should be one web okay okay okay i see and you should only ever get any okay that's the same
idea as having one lightning thing on your exactly and you should have one cashew wallet you should be
able to have one spark wallet like and it should be implemented once in rust in a disciplined manner
with a lot of testing and you shouldn't vibe that like i want to build the things that you shouldn't
vibe and i want users to be able to just vibe code the shit out of everything just plug into
those yeah yeah and of course natively running you have the services so to speak you have the freedom
yeah the platform apis you have the freedom to ignore the platform apis and do it yourself
but it's probably going to be less efficient and it's probably you probably don't need to right
and so you know like phips i'm going to have phips running in uh at the at that level i'll probably
have some sort of like tail scale type you know like maybe not for vpn like any all these cool
things that we have all these nice little primitives i want to have that like this all available to
any app at the operating system level with like simple apis that you can vibe code and experience
on top of so that's the goal and uh in theory if someone of the like three people that two people
let's be generous if the one guy that's still listening is interested can he flash it on his
pixel 4a yeah i mean if you go to justinmoon slash shadow and you install nix uh because this is a man
real man a real man's operating system a real man is listening here so these are no children listening
at this point um surely already nix is the only nix is the only nix installed yeah surely uh or else he
wouldn't be listening exactly right so nix nix is so i couldn't do every one of my projects uses nix
nix is like uh it's like a it's like a uh a way of defining a software behave uh environment in like
a declarative way so it and and uh so you can you can describe inputs and outputs to like a software
build see it's very easy to define one package this way to the entire uh dependencies for a whole
project or you can define a whole operating system and it's really really good for build environments
so like i have a nix environment where i can totally determine what goes on to the rom on this phone
you know and it's trivial to get new new to cross compile my rust code and all of its dependencies
to this android phone it's like solves all that for me so that's why if you want to clone this you need
nix because nix is what the entire build system is built on and so you could run i think just run
if you have a pixel plugged in pixel 4a plugged in and you root it i think this i think my script roots
it uses like magisk or whatever uh yeah you know enable developer debugging and all that stuff
and you run just run and then the the serial number that you see in adb devices it should flash it and
run it all right awesome uh so yeah yeah in the nix environment so yeah if someone does it let us know
tag us on roster and if you don't you can also do just run vm and that will run the kumu vm
so that that should basically one that should be more reliable because you don't have to prepare
a device in any way and again i'm the only i we did have one guy uh coasty got it to run on
linux and autumn also got it to run oh wow okay so we have had three people do it coasty made some
some prs but yeah i'm at this point i'm it's mostly a solo like i'm still trailblazing sure but if
somebody is like uniquely interested in this if somebody really wants to like this is a project
that could justify 10 or 20 developers yeah like we could like if this is something where if we did
really go for it it could make a big impact yeah which is why i'm interested yeah you know but i
think it's still a little early to attempt that yeah yeah yeah i see i see here's the wind's back
the wind is back the microphones are usually really really good at filtering it out but the cows are
here as well so i just took a picture i'll actually add them to the show notes if i manage yeah like
the people don't know like what kind of recording studio we have yeah it's awesome i'll have to take
another one it's like it's super misty and like bulls all around and all those kind of things
yeah all right so in terms of trailblazing what do you think is still left to do oh oh yeah so so one
other thing typescript so the the difference with this is
jeez the difference with this is like so i don't like i think the browser environment's not a very
great developer environment for example that you can't write a file very easily there's all kinds
of limits on writing to like local sure the browser is its own sandbox yeah like
it sucks in a lot of ways uh and again there's another one for security yeah yeah yeah that's
that's fine that's fair i think that's understandable you don't you don't want random code from the
internet executing on your bare metal all the time and so on yeah you want some guardrails well
actually i do want this right now sure right right now i want this i want full yolo like yeah i want
like no fucking guardrails yeah you trust that end pub yeah it's remote code execution from that end
pub and i completely agree that we should have that and do that and that looping back to the
comparison with guns or cars it's like i want something that just like if i use it wrong i shoot
myself in the foot i want a 3d i want a 3d printed gun of phones
and and then that's someone's gonna clip that you'll land on some sort of list just for that
sentence alone this is why i hate going on podcasts if i ever start speaking honestly i'm like yeah i
want a 3d printed gun of phones every it's just like yeah the most unhinged shit yeah yeah no but
you you want to have a powerful tool i want to max it out on that and then and then on every just to
to close the thought for real like on every level it should be permissionless yes you should not
be asking for permission to do whatever you want on your hardware and i want i want no solutions listener
to run it that's the only person and sec you know and maybe a couple people in austin these are the
only people i care about running it but i think yeah what's interesting about austin it's like what do we
have to work with right like there's a lot of people who've built linux phones and they've all
failed mozilla tried it everyone tried it yeah yeah i had them all they were all horrible they're
all horrible they failed for i think they fall fail for kind of two reasons i mean one of them is
like they don't really have this like um really really uh ideologically motivated and like technically
confident i think in part i think in part shut up shut up god damn it god damn it he finishes my
thoughts for me he interrupts me no the people that were building it they are not phone users yeah
they're server users yeah like that was obvious like when you got one of those phones they didn't
they didn't they didn't use it themselves yeah so that's one thing and but we have like power users
and we have like tinkerers like that's one thing nostr has like there was a so the guy who made
wisp i forget what his name is but he you take so yeah so he had an interesting uh poll the other day
where he asked what phone people use and it was a third ios a third android and a third graph yeah
that's awesome that's an unusual yeah it's a very unusual thing yeah uh that a third of the people
would flash their own phones yeah and so i think that's like a primitive we have to work with in
terms of like building projects and communities around nostr that's very exciting yeah yeah we have
all the insane people yeah people will do this right and so and the other thing is like so what
what what were they trying to install on these linux phones like an email client yeah like they had no
ideas for apps yeah like they had no idea they had no reason to like like oh you can write your app
right like you you had the ubuntu phone that like ran just ubuntu and then you have ubuntu apps on
your phone yeah don't work on the touch screen at all yeah it was all terrible i feel like none of
them actually had a vision for like what a phone could be or should be yeah and so i had some from
nostr like that i thought of this a year ago where you could like have kind of like these
really small understandable unix tools and it would be very easy to uh share them or write them
back then like write them by hand and i thought that was somewhat exciting but it wasn't exciting
enough i think ai sort of makes brings it to the next level where like anybody could participate in
that right yeah like you don't have to you know the last two courts we've had people that weren't
programmers before come yeah and give good demos so it's like a dude like that's something we've seen
at sec yeah yeah we've we've hit the threshold now because in the first two cohorts that didn't work
at all and ever ever since last fall last winter that started to work that project managers and
designers can produce something really good yeah so so yeah so that's another thing it's like
now you you as the software developer or the os creator don't have to like actually
figure out what the app should be yes right like you just users can and and you don't need app
developers like that was what ios did is like they're they figured out how to create an app developer
ecosystem yeah and that was a new thing and they still get fucking 30 percent you know um and so like
maybe what is the next thing is like what if it's the user ecosystem and it's i don't know
like myspace is an inspiration to me or it's like a lot of the actual vibe was from the users tumblr
or something like these things like i don't know that that is something that platform stepping back
and then so so yeah we have so that's an appeal like why i have a new phone well so that the user
can actually fully like own anything about how the the uh apps work or the operating system like hey
if you want to vibe code how your cellular driver interactions work yeah fucking go for it here's uh
you know one one dollar a minute i'll i'll rent you a thousand core machine and you know whatever right
like but that's something i want to be able to do it's like okay uh like so the other type of app would
be like a bare metal app like written in rust or zig or something that like draws 60 frames a second it's
like it's like note deck right yeah you could do that but it's like you can't really vibe that on your
phone but hey rent me a build rent a build server from me and i will i will build it for you and it
will be relatively quick i mean hopefully if that stuff works well enough an ecosystem around this
will spring up you won't be the only yeah like wipe this but i feel like i have to with a lot of
you have to kick start it you have to kick start you have to show people what's possible
and so so yeah i don't know like that so so yeah but but yeah and i i think the other thing is
like i've already kind of said this but i think we actually have ideas of what should be on an
operating system that is different right like we want the money on there we want the how to
communicate with relays you know mock clients like be able to do audio calls video calls we want
like some way of doing push notifications that you don't have to bend over and get on your
fucking knees you know from apple like that's one of the things that's so frustrating it's like
yeah it's insane it's so frustrating it's like i can't my my i pay a thousand dollars for this phone
even on android it's not great right like uh i don't know like pokey does are these good like
there's a few of them for yeah pokey is but pokey is purely like it's purely for noster basically
yeah it's just one one app that does all noster notifications for all your if you if you're a
power it works well okay if you are a power user and you have multiple noster accounts yeah like and
you just want to get spent with notifications pokey is the way to go for sure but i feel like we could
you know yeah we could it would be cool if like the platform itself had a solution here and it worked
out of the box and apps could integrate and be a little smarter with how it works and just uh so
there's so many of these things that i think we could we could do in a different way yeah and uh so
yeah that's kind of the vision and the crazy thing is like i know how to do it and i think i can
accomplish it all by myself on the pixel 4a like i can make you buy a hundred dollar fifty dollar
whatever 75 pixel 4a and you can boot this thing and it it can do everything you can do on other
noster apps maybe there's a calendar maybe i make a little email client like i think i could get this
thing where it's like it could replace your phone uh the security properties are not going to be great
at the beginning i think the most important thing to kickstart is replace it for yourself yeah and
whatever use you have because people use phones in all kinds of different ways obviously but if you're
if you're able to basically get it to a point where you can more or less use it as a daily driver
yeah that would be awesome and like i don't know i don't really like my relationship with my phone
to be honest like i feel like my my phone kind of it's like a whatever like a siren like sure yeah
it is yeah i mean it's designed to be it yeah way and so that's another thing like yeah i don't know
i'd like to be i don't know i'd like i'd like it if like people tried to text message me and it's
like justin is not texting over the next 12 hours but you can call him you know or like justin is not
accepting calls right now but if you give him 50 dollars in sats he will refund it if this is a
valid call not if you're just being a bitch he won't refund it you know like i'd like to be able
to play around with these things to make like uh you know make it and it's like hey if you want to
play around with it on the operating system level everyone at href if you want me to give input on
your google doc you gotta go through just you need to download it you need to you know there's an
order of operations you know alex like you gotta flash it get a fix of 4a and justin will do his
work you know i think that's what's awesome about those kind of things once you once you let people
actually experiment and build stuff like once you actually move into the permissionless realm yeah
then all kinds of things surprising things will happen exactly and i think that's that's why
you know like lots of people here are so excited around um you know going permissionless across the
stack because then you can actually you you you i think lots of people are holding back in some
sense right now or just in general because it's just okay you're gonna build it out and you have
no chance of getting into the app stores yeah for example yeah no this is this is exactly that my
feeling is like i just i kind of gave up on that and i'm like i'm just gonna build my own parallel
thing here yeah and i'm gonna do it for at least right this is the first thing i've been working
on since like fetty where i was like i might just trudge away on this one for a few years
yeah fuck it go really hard on it just yeah why not i mean you're definitely not alone i know i know
personally of like many many dozens of people that are in this position where it's like
what's the point of going hard on it because it's you're just going to be deplatformed anyway i know
you know so yeah that's i want something where i can go hard on yeah and this one it's like i can
i can really go to town yeah you know um so yeah and i mean you know it's not i don't you know i
think like graphene is an amazing option and this is like a different thing though yeah like graphene
is optimizing for security yes and they're trying to they're you know you want to optimize for shooting
yourself in the foot yeah i want to optimize for hackability and like customization and and you know
and i think we could get over time we could get the the the security to be pretty good you know
because it's like all the code all the apps run in v8 right now which is so it's essentially a browser
sandbox you know and like i'll have to do more stuff they can do file io so we'll need to like
be smarter i wouldn't be surprised if one app can write into another apps or read from another app
right now right like i'm sure stuff like that's possible but i think we could lock all that down
and uh i think we could get security to be you know if we do the newest pixels it's like we do the
secure boot and some of the stuff that they that they pioneer like i think we could maybe some of
that like port some of that to rust and run it here or i just run the jvm code whatever uh you know
like i think over time that could be possible but it's like it's a different trade-off it's a
different set of trade-offs and goals than graphene and so it's not like uh i think that's a great
problem i don't want to throw any shade at that yeah no not at all graphene is fantastic obviously
i mean very much needed right now yeah like to be clear shadow is like in like pre-alpha
i mean as i said 13 second button clicks last friday yeah yeah yeah yeah but we we transcended that so
yeah yeah so uh but yeah so that's so i don't know i think i think i think it could be very
very fun and uh yeah start with the pixel 4as and then maybe try to do like a more flagship one like
you know nine or ten uh once that works one step at a time yeah talk to me about the network stack a
little bit i mean the cohort was dominated by phips so yeah one of one of the permission layers of
course is dns and just ipv4 addresses in general yeah and how are you thinking about that right now
after the last like two and a half weeks and just kind of in in in light of building a new mobile
operating system yeah um or maybe before that like in terms of app distribution for example how are you
thinking about that like you said um it's all typescript files it's all tsx files and in the
end it should just be like receiving a dm and you you have the app so what are you using right now and
i assume certain other kinds or or how how do you distribute so far it's one mono repo and everything
gets installed at once okay uh so i haven't attempted distribution yet i think it would be something
like you know an app kind and uh signed that contains a signed hash of a blossom or hash tree
like you know uh thing that actually contains the source code same as app store works right now
basically exactly same principle yeah i mean it's absolutely yeah the reason why i i hang those
two questions together by the way because that's obviously the our kill our kill is heel of app
distribution and so on like if you have an app repository that runs on a domain or just a centralized
server somewhere if it's spicy enough it will just get shut down sure so yeah i mean the other interesting
thing is just like having the option to just distribute the source code right and so like
i can you know dino can run i mean it has to do like a build step it has to download dependencies
uh but it only takes like a couple seconds yeah you know just being able to just distribute the source
code makes it much smaller right yeah also much more censorship resistant because you can literally send
a guy a book yeah so so yeah like that that is you know you're talking about like kilobytes instead of
megabytes yeah and uh but yeah so i want it to be very i don't i'm not gonna have like an app uh any
sort of like a store or like a central thing i don't know think about how to monetize app developers
will be kind of interesting you know um it would be cool if if you know i mean i one of my complaints
about nostril is like nobody's good at getting money out of the users yeah you know and so i want to
uh i might try that uh uh a lot more it's like it would be cool if you know if the app developers
were actually making money like if if you like if somebody made a popular app that they could they
could get a cut you know um so that's going to be an interesting thing to play with uh but i think my
feeling there is like the way to do it is going to be lots of tools for agents right yeah like you're
going to have an agent and uh the phone is a part of the picture yeah i think i think it's like in
cyberspace it's very hard to figure out what to charge for and the obvious thing is compute yeah
it's the only thing that's actually scarce yeah and so that makes a lot of sense i like the current
like we we've come a long way already amethyst for example has the on every app update sap the
developers quite prominent yeah and people do yeah and sets are flowing to the developers it's like a
massive massive sap split yeah to everyone who contributed yeah um so i actually wouldn't focus
on that too hard in some sense because i think something will like that will be figured out yeah
alongside of you building a new os like you're not going to fix all the issues at once yeah i mean
i don't know i kind of disagree in the sense that like i want to really play with that a lot from
the very beginning okay like find good ways to get an economy going you know like the problem with uh
you know economy in cyberspace is that like a jpeg isn't scarce you know what i mean yeah and an app
is also not scarce well and that's kind of what the app stores actually do is they enforce and that's
and that's why it's so permissioned right and that's why you take a 30 cut it's like it's it all hangs
together that's why i'll make an app store and take 30 cut sounds nice now that you bring it up
now that you really put it into context what are we maybe like i think i'm gonna do 45 minutes in
and you're already on the dark side i'm gonna do that i think yeah take 30 yeah yeah 29 i'll call up tsmc
get in that next two nanometer batch yeah yeah and i'm apple basically but i think the the compute
angle or the agentic angle is really really good because people are willing to pay for useful
services period and that might be like in the pre-agentic world it was kind of service quality
and uptime and just data guarantees and those kind of things and now it's just straight up compute in
some sense yeah and the a lot of the old services i mean it's interesting so with hrf we use some
trainings where we like bring a couple activists in and we teach them how to vibe code teach them how
to uh play with a claw you know set up a claw yeah and you know what the risks are hatch a lobster
as they say yeah hatch a lobster yeah and what the what the risks are what what you should how to think
about it how to succeed we try to get them a win or two you know where they have some idea they've always
wanted to do and now they actually do it and uh and the hardest thing about this is creating accounts
it's like half the obviously most of these um trainings we do like one of the lobsters gets banned
on github yeah or one of the lobsters gets you know we got couldn't log into chat gpt or you know
to for for codex on one of them and like every time there's some really really bad authentication issue
so yeah um so this is where an ostrich could like really shine is if you could have
you know a set of tools so that's another kind of little
are we lost are we lost no but we don't know where everyone went left to right left or right
okay all good that would have been fun just getting lost in the woods yeah completely where
were we no exits podcast yeah exactly oh yeah um uh the friction of permission systems and getting
accounts banned and so that's that's um i don't know that's it's a bigger problem for agents than it is
for humans i think and also agents are like a little less long lived also you know new password
managers and stuff are going to come popping up like stripe also right now all the services hate
agents basically they want to ban them and just they're all overwhelming they're all you know like
if you look at the github repo creation it's gone just absolutely exponential the last year yeah
absolutely it is understandable but it's also it's it's it's also a new reality yeah and so yeah i don't
know like that's another interesting thing like this is some this is what i one of my other projects
like i've kind of have all these ideas now and now i just need to start like violently shipping
uh so violently shipping that's like yeah there's a there's a diarrhea joke exactly
we're not gonna make the joke of course not at all we'll laugh hope the listener is laughing
it's like half a listen though it's just like the dolphins you know switching switching off half
the brain yeah exactly yeah i won't say it uh yeah so that's one thing i want i was making is like uh
you know so i don't like a bare metal machine and i could spawn a vm on it and like what i want is
like my like i did i have this a little bit i have an open claw that has it's got root on a
what 64 gig ram you know like 16 thread hetzner machine and it can do whatever the it wants there
yeah as an xconfig i can tell it's like set up electrum server it sets up an electrum server
everything gets committed to get to get um the the back of the data the there's like a separate it
doesn't have access to everything so like the backup there's a backup service that's written by another
user that it can't up it can up the paths to some extent like so i need a little bit better system
to make sure that like this one agent user like if it creates data it does actually get
backed up yeah like what i want is like give it full control over the user space you can do whatever
it wants if it needs a place to hit set up a git repo install git to you just vibe code your own who
cares yeah whatever do whatever you want you know yeah and uh so kind of like that idea is like
like give the agent a whole computer and and like nix is another good tool here because
it doesn't make i mean one thing agents love to do is make mutations and then leave them
yeah and forget right there these things are really good at forgetting what they've done i mean that's
yeah they they are memory is the main problem right now yeah and uh and in a sense i think it always
will be because it's or maybe not always but yeah they don't have like a sense of experience and like
you know that like oh it's starting to get messy here like they haven't demonstrated that yet
uh so yeah like if you could if you could have it all live on like all the configuration live
and a git repo and then all the data be just synced at all times uh that would be cool and it can just
like sort of install everything it needs and so you know as long as it doesn't have to do permission
systems like email or something it can just set everything up it needs so i think that could be
kind of cool um so this is kind of like what i would want to uh i want to make like a little service for
people to like set up an agent in this environment and then you know this little thing i set up it's
like you know if somebody wants to you know do a rust build i could like sell them more compute just
right then like it's cached on that machine right and uh you know if you need a little more disc like
just these are all just like you know i think that's where it's heading anyway i mean dimmy the
the guy you mentioned just before he that's how he is operating as well just giving the agents more or
less full access to certain parts of the system yeah and for my setup as well like i i have multiple
machines uh with multiple claws on them multiple lobsters on them and i have one like god-like
machine that just can ssh into everything and just fix stuff where it's similar to your backup idea
where it's just like if the thing destroys itself yeah i go one level higher and and say like okay this
one's down just fix it yeah and it so far it has always worked so it's like the uh yeah it's like
god's uh god's angels like his uh hierarchy of angels exactly exactly yeah yeah an angel falls and then
an archangel blows a little kiss exactly he stands back up
yeah so that's that's i don't know that's another thing where uh the reason why you went into all that
is in part because of the monetization yeah i mean i think i think the best way to monetize stuff is
like people will pay for their tamagotchi their intelligent tamagotchi that's what an agent is
oh absolutely yeah the verbs people use like hatch and grow yeah uh betrays more of a more interest
than in a normal computer right and so oh absolutely from a sales point of view we should leverage that
like this is something that people are going to pay money for this will just we're going to be able to
sell them what we've always wanted to sell them yeah but they'll be willing to the the memory part
will be solved eventually that's that's i think in part why open claw became so successful because
because it allows to shoot yourself in the foot and it provides memory yeah yeah as rudimentary as it
is yeah and then you just the thing learned and it's yours now and it's useful for you but and yeah
yeah i'm still a bit of a like i've had open claws since like december but i've never really like gotten
into it partially because like i'm like just a hardcore vibe coder like like
that's not something you see every day i'll have to i'll just
yeah we just went to walk by some acrobats what is it is it like that's that's acro yoga right i
don't know uh strange um yeah so i keep side like i haven't sidetracked you this hard ever
i keep sidetracking you with everything yeah it's okay it's just who you are you can't help it
you're past you're past the age where you can change that's very true but in my defense i hatched
two new ones you know and they'll be different yeah oh so i was saying like i'm i'm a little bit
of a boomer on this still because i don't really i mean in a sense i try to you know design my whole
life so i don't have to do a bunch of tasks yeah you know and like open claws are really good at task
completion like just doing tasks and you don't have any tasks free calendar always well i'm
the ones that i do have i'm procrastinating so heavily that i forget they're there
no uh i want to i want to get i want to set up a hermes uh or you know try a few of these a little
more seriously um yeah i need to like i need to like have more tasks i was going to try to create
more content and like if i was doing that there's all kinds of things i could have the open claw be
in charge of you know um so i have to like engineer a bit of an excuse to need an open claw yeah
what what i landed on now and i'm sure it will kind of evolve again but one agent per project yeah
and it just learns everything about the project and it also runs its own nostr account and so i just dm
the project yeah and so i'm just constantly in conversations your vibe they're vibe coding for you
yeah i'm just in conversations with my projects basically um very simple setup it's it's kind of like
let's say you're elon musk and you have like 20 different companies you just talk to the ceo so
you're talking to hr2 now yeah it's i don't have an abstraction hierarchy below that yeah so it's just
one one one open claw yeah it can spawn its own up sub agents and it will but it's just very simple because
then i you know like that sounds nice especially because like i go like i really like having the
fine-grained control of like actually using the like the codex itself yeah for something like shadow
like you can't you can't communicate high level requirements and not look at the session and not look at the code on that
yeah but for a lot of other things like that i would like i think that is good enough you know yeah for
no solutions for example that's how i do it yeah and just everything it needs in terms of memory is
either in in github or in the chat history yeah or in the in the raw files themselves in the you know
transcripts and yeah show notes and what have you and yeah it's just like most of the stuff is
almost fully automated and then i just follow up with some chat messages or voice notes voice memos
and that's that's where i landed on right now for having like 10 15 different little projects that i just
that's my that's my you know like waste of time yeah playing mode i just want to play around with the
things to learn how it behaves learn kind of what various models are good at what like when is it
actually kind of sucking you in and leading you to ai psychosis and you're just like fully wasting your
time and going insane yeah and when is it actually helpful yeah and replaces for me like for no solutions
for example it it replaces a a production team yeah to some degree i mean not that there is a lot of
production but it's just continue your speech continue your speech no but it's just kind of you know like
all that's it's it's just busy work and like you said before open again open claw open claw is very
good at task completion which is kind of doing busy work yeah and just you know like linking stuff and
doing transcripts and doing like a cover image and just uploading things and blah and updating the feed
it's just i don't have to do that anymore it's just like here is the mp3 file do everything and that's
it like i don't do more than that and yep and that that can obviously be automated because i have
file watches and if an mp3 file lands in that folder then it just does things and yeah that's it
so i'm trying to think of your last question your last question is about networks
yes that's how we yes you hijacked no i was i was trying to pick your brain on on fips because this
cohort like as you know like i don't really follow the rules very well uh so of course this the first
even as captain of week two you were just like everything yeah uh my my week was really good
we had really good demos i haven't made the captain's notes yet but uh how dare you justin how dare
you but uh give me the markdown file i need to feed my lobsters i haven't really uh complete i haven't
really dived into fips as much as i wanted yet but i have a few like high level thoughts and like one
of them is that you know i think it will be really neat i mean the basic the pitch is basically that
like um everything becomes like bit chat in a sense where like like all internet like every network
device can have those sorts of functionality right so it's like i could basically build
bit chat into my operating system but it's like kind of a more standard protocol that was written
protocol first from somebody who has like 50 years or 40 years of experience doing this type of stuff
you know like jonathan was like he's told us a few times i don't think i'm telling tales out of
school where he's like you know uh he's kind of ready to retire and uh and then he came to this little
meetup in costa rica yeah he's like you know i've only felt there's like 30 of us in a room
sponsored by primal and nvk and he's like you know i've only felt a room like this twice in my life
one of them was the early 90s with the cypherpunks like the true like the original people which he
knew because he was there and then early 2010s with uh for the early you know early years of bitcoin
and he's like that's the only other time i felt this kind of a vibe and uh i just had to get back
into it right i couldn't i just couldn't watch yeah phipps brought him out of retirement yeah exactly so uh
uh but yeah so it's like you know so it's it's very good that you know like he it's someone like him
creating it and it's kind of protocol first whereas bitchat was more like you know starting
a ct a ceo of a beloved ceo of a fortune 500 company took a weekend to make a ux yeah and they've
been sort of going from ux to protocol yeah and this is kind of going in the in the opposite
opposite direction right we still don't even have a decent ux for it yet yeah you know um but it'll get
there and i think the two will kind of meet in the middle and so that's kind of the idea is that you
can have any of these little little mini networks uh running over any transport you like you know
we've been trying to fly you know point antennas at things yeah i think the high level idea is like
we talked about this before with dns and ip addresses being permissioned yeah and the reason is because
they are identities in some sense identity systems yeah that don't operate in cryptographic space which means
they have to be permissioned it's like dns is the clearest example of this but the ip addresses
because there is so few of them yeah um have the same issue like it's exactly the same issue and so
you need a consortium of people that comes together and there's like 12 people in the room that you
know have like ceremonies that yeah will tell the world who is it actually that is in control of google.com
and all those kind of things and and what fibs does it is it completely removes all that it moves fully
into the cryptographic space yeah so you're just talking to npubs basically everyone everyone
every addressable point is in cryptographic space and whether you use
like the nice thing is that it's both a fundamental protocol right and it can also act as an overlay
so you can go i can say hey connect me to whatever justin's machines and pub yeah and it can still go
over dna dns and ip addresses um which i think is what makes it it gives it a shot at actually yeah makes
it actually useful in some sense like otherwise every other attempt um or many other attempts that
i've seen so far it's just like okay you have to mesh networkify the world instantly otherwise it just
won't work yeah and this is a very nice kind of yeah meet in the middle approach attacking it from both
angles you know like that was another one marty uh malmy you know a legend uh was was here yeah he
was showing off nostril vpn and i played with it i set it up uh and so like that's another thing that
is appealing is like hey if i just could have like a little phips overlay just for my own machines my
own little tail scale yeah absolutely yeah like this would be awesome right and so it's like i don't
know if i if we could have something like this just like me and my friends in austin doing something
right like like you know you can you can you can deploy these things in like a small scale and if
the grid goes down you don't care that much it's similar to the solar and being you know like
self-sufficient in that way it's self-sufficient networking right that's that's what it should be and i think
you could always build more centralized things on top of them you know that could maybe get to web
scale or whatever uh you know but that's kind of a longer term thing and and until then we have our
own little cottage industry internet that we can play yeah and for certain communities i think it can
be super helpful like if you're living off grade already in a bigger community yeah um like you know
cobra door the toll gate guy that's walking in front of us there um you know he he has access to
these communities and they would that's actually a a big internet yeah i mean i mean i don't know what
they're doing now but uh this is one of their goals as well yeah to tap internet set these things all
over up all over africa stuff yeah fatty obviously is on the on the kind of app uh yeah level layer and
but a lot of times a lot of places where they want to work is like the internet is actually the limiting
factor yeah so it's like if you could set up a starlink and have like you know their own little network that
works inside the walls of the village yeah that would be an unlock yeah i mean again back to e-cash being
offline that's kind of a killer feature for for the yeah the offline offline mostly communities you
know mostly offline communities and then someday if we're successful enough we can join them and be
offline mostly and not have to deal with this health care we call the internet ai all these things we
fucking hate i mean we're pretty offline right now yeah yeah there isn't cell signal here i think yeah
deep in the woods yeah you wait to see how offline i am when the shadow starts booting on its own
levels of offline even if the message gets through the fonts won't render
i mean in some sense you're riding a certain wave and lots of things will play in your favor i think
the the permissioned internet and the permissioned ecosystems will just get worse and worse and worse
yeah the models will just get better and better and better yeah vibe coding sorry agentic engineering
will just get better and better and better and um so yeah with the new sets of models
right around the corner basically and all all those kind of things wrapping up
who knows who knows what you can build out in the next 18 months yeah
yeah we'll see we'll see should we leave it at that sure now we're walking uphill they're huffing and
puffing at downhill i mean when we're walking perpendicular to where everyone else is walking
oh yeah that's true we're losing the group yeah but yeah no i mean i'm i feel very blessed that i can
just you know tap into your brain from time to time yeah and that you're actually you know uh well i feel
blessed that i could come to sec it really kind of rejuvenated me the last time the first time i came
and this is i want to no i want to tell the one guy uh half a guy the half a guy who's left uh we'll
round up you know it's uh it kind of rejuvenated me got me interested again and gave me a bunch of
different perspectives brought you back from retirement a little bit yeah i mean all the
things that i've been doing like at this cohort like it's starting to come together like in pika we
didn't talk about pika um like trying to fix the trying to figure out a good a good actual user usable
way of doing messaging on nostr still doesn't exist um uh there were all things that i kind of started
playing around with at the first cohort continued at the second one and so it's been like a very
linear yeah growth trajectory the whole time yeah uh so a lot of the ideas actually started here uh so
yeah yeah i'm glad we i'm glad we brought you back not only will i'll be back but i'm probably
going to try to scam you guys into somehow doing one in the in the u.s or let's go or canada or
something on some off the grid ranch yeah yeah yeah yeah i know we were talking about ranches we're
talking about maybe doing one where we like rent a couple rvs moving moving cohort yeah yeah and
like this is like meet up in the middle of nowhere get some starlinks yeah build some tents yeah we'll
probably have to call burning man start something else for legal reasons sovereign rving
but no one will come to that that's the problem no but i'm i'm really glad that you came and and
stayed and i think we told that this before but you moved your flight like four times or something
and now you're back again and uh yeah we'll definitely continue and i i love that just bringing
some like bringing all the insane people together and locking them into a room for
a couple weeks actually produces stuff it actually produces novel stuff and that's that's kind of the
goal yeah i know it uh it it uh i don't know it's funny like the i mean the fifth like the for arian
and cobrador i mean the first time i heard i was joking about this like the first time i heard them
talking about this stuff i'm like these guys are retarded absolutely hundred percent routers and
balloons and yeah i mean no thanks for confidentially cobrador still living yeah yeah yeah yeah we all
agree we all agree but yeah like i mean with a lot of them it's like the ideas the first time i hear
them are like i don't know about that and then it grows on you a little bit it's like you need to uh
yeah i don't know it's like uh because then i will talk to some of my normie friends about these things and
it's like if i in the rare instances i don't heavily self-censor myself they'll be like what
the are you talking about yeah yeah you know yeah it's just too much and too too out there but but
that's kind of what you know i've always wondered was like what was it like to be involved in the
internet in the 80s or the 90s and like complete insane ideas yeah it's like that's so i think it's
kind of good i mean that's kind of the balance is how do you engage with these kind of insane ideas
well not going insane yourself yeah which is always feels like i'm always a little close
like i could psychosis doesn't help i i could i i could go insane i know that about myself oh same
same yeah yeah so um so that's kind of the thing is like how do you but that also makes me good at
these sorts of things the the way i see it is like we are like the whole sovereign engineering process
is basically throwing shit at the wall and and kind of you have to step away and there's just a pile of
shit forms yeah at the bottom of the wall yeah and then like if you let enough time pass a little
flower might go out of it and then focus really on the flower yeah yeah yeah you know like we had
on the flower yeah exactly exactly exactly but we had like uh we're in in cohort number seven now
and like 21 participants each yeah um and like about 100 demos each cohort like it's 700 demos that's
700 new ideas and crazy things that people showed and out of those there's maybe like let's be generous
10 20 good ones something like that yeah and three four five really shine you know and and that's fips
again like i think everyone agrees that's that's a great one yeah blossom obviously you know insight
yeah those kind of things um you know sap store came out of first first chord as well and and just
most of the crazy ideas obviously don't make it but that's just how it goes and we just want to
encourage people to actually come and actually lock themselves into a room and actually try the crazy
things it's not a vc thing obviously but it does have the same kind of mechanics where you have to
just spread a million bets out yeah and it's a numbers game yeah but just and the one thing i observe
is like i i i don't think i could make it six weeks this time because uh like i'm already overwhelmed on
week two like i you know yeah this one was like it's like this one felt like like like i'm uh like i'm
what do you call it free base like injecting it right into the veins or whatever right like it's
it uh yeah i don't know i mean it's it's a shorter one but it's almost after two weeks i'm almost almost
brain dead just brain dead yeah yeah i mean and and also i mean my my situation is a little different
where i was kind of pregnant with two projects when i came here and now i'm like severely pregnant i need to
ship these uh i actually spent most of the week trying to figure out how to ship pika last week
because i'm like i shouldn't just start a new big project i need to ship the pika what's holding
i gave i gave it to my captain's talk was like i was talking about how kind of i have a icicles i'm
doing all these things and i'm like trying to figure out what direction is up and i'm trying to be really
ambitious and how do you manage shipping i'm like you know what after the thing is like i had something
really interesting with pika i had two power users my mom and gg and it's like this is what i've always wanted
and then i got distracted and we didn't even talk to each other no you were you were just power using
it and so i don't know i mean uh i need to return to that i think uh i think i don't know if marmot is
the way um like it's unclear like it's i uh i don't what makes you say that a few things like one is like
i don't i don't know if for a private encrypted messenger i don't know if we should be uploading
stuff to public infrastructure this is jesus one of jesus's points yeah you know it's like you're you're
it's it's it's easily queryable yeah right like i could query every single message you posted from
marmot marmot app on these nostril relays and it's like so you do leak more metadata in that sense than
normal the big benefit to me is like as an app developer you don't have to stand up a any sort of
infrastructure but i don't know like why not just have a centralized chat server that's easily deployable
um that can be per group and can be easily swapped out and uh and just use nostril identities or why
not have a server just for signaling um setting up groups and ordering messages have you looked into
zero zero zero x chat at all uh no what is that i've heard of it yeah that's a that's a um
basically goes down that path and doesn't have persistent identities at all so every no every
every kind of chat session you initiate you get a new key pair okay basically yeah um and as far as i
know they they they provide their own infrastructure as well but they make it very easy to run your own
and it's kind of uh also relay based and onion routing based so yeah um if you if you kind of want to
move away from armor that's something i would definitely look into because we can easily over overlay
identity on it yeah in some sense yeah if you want to i mean the founder doesn't want to have any
persistent identity in the system itself which i respect in some sense looking looking forward i think
hosting services is going to get easier like i do agree i have an infrastructure agent it's literally
like one one phone call away so i think i think we're gonna like the way we use nostr you know like
if my agent wants to do something one option is to figure out how to do the kinds and everything on
nostril it could also just like write a little http server and deploy it yeah right like so i think
that the the days of like nostril as firebase where it's like oh this is the only place my backend can live
is going to slowly go away maybe um and uh yeah so the other thing with the problem with marmot is like
so mls is like this you know this uh really complicated but really has you know nice properties
uh specification for how to do encrypted messaging and so it's designed with two central services in
you know in mind an authentication service and like a uh coordinator or ordering service uh and so we
already have the authentication service it's just not uh you know the cryptography of of of nostril or
keys but we don't have the ordering service and so uh this is like ordering the the the messages and
the commits and you know people getting added to a group removed to a group rotating the keys all that
stuff like if you're ever in a marmot chat and it just kind of dies that's what's happened is like
they're trying to do this they're trying to do this ordering stuff client side when the protocol was
designed for a server and you know in the spec they say it's possible but extremely extremely difficult
and you know so they they you know marmot is forging ahead with lots of features you know like
they're figuring how to do multi-device and push notifications all these other things they still
haven't figured out how to have the chats not fall apart um and they don't have very paranoid testing
of any of this you know like in the last cohort i i understand that they tried to set up a big chat
with everyone in in the group with one of the official implementations and it just it fell over when
i had like 15 people and that's not good because the entire point of marmot of mls is that it scales
better than double ratchet so like you can have a 2 000 person group with mls you can't with double ratchet
which is what signal uses yeah uh and so that's another uh direction is like marty malmy and
his team are trying to make a double reaction right uh and so it doesn't have as good of like
theoretical properties but i think you know right now it may be the case that the double ratchet
scales better than mls because the mls falls apart for coordinate coordination reasons i keep coming
back to the same point like an encrypted group chat with 2 000 people is nonsensical anyway it's just you
you have to make it work for small groups it has to work in practice yeah because like it's a 2 000
people group chat is public by default yeah like someone someone is screencasting the whole thing i
think it's it's always a spectrum though like yeah it is you know you can say stuff on discord you know
there's a lot of stuff that gets said on discord that people don't lose their jobs over that they
would lose their jobs over if they said it on twitter yeah fair enough yeah that's that is a good
point a lot of people have lost a lot of stuff yeah i'm saying stuff on no no that that's that is a very
good point that's why everyone is in yeah yeah but but but it's still you know kind of you know like
people say it depends on the people because it's just like screenshots and and sure but does your
employer find out about that yeah no i i fully agree with that it's a spectrum um it's a spectrum
assessment like i i i fully did it 30 seconds ago no no i do fully like i i but it's it is still a spectrum
you know i get you to reverse back you know i'm not an llm i don't go down the path and never go
back no you just you're absolutely right no i agree with the i i i think we we i agree with your
point too i'll just interrupt you here because i haven't you i want to give you a little bit of your
own medicine yeah uh i agree that what we need is groups that can work for five or ten people i
mean we really need something that works really well for a clanker and has backwards compatibility and
doesn't because that was the other issue with mine i don't think we need to theory craft over like
five thousand people group chats and have it theoretically be perfect but it doesn't work in
practice for five people yeah one it's also like why do we need to like why do we need to send the
messages over nostrilay it's like yeah you ended up like that's another thing about phips is like
phips is like no it's the key that the key is the more important thing than the relay like the relay was
like maybe it's not you know maybe that goes away by the way that's what makes snip 17 for me like
unreliable to a degree because it just needs to you need to connect to all the relays to get all the
messages to get all the order ordering to get all the you know like dm inbox yeah relays connections up
and so on yeah and it's just it's kind of a mess like for for my clients i need to initiate a chat
session load the profile manually half the time that connects to all the relays and then i can
start chatting after like 30 seconds or whatever yeah and there's lots of stuff that that still
doesn't work right yeah so that's what i what i want to do is is is relax a little bit of the
maybe the decentralization that marmot strives for in addition to taking a 30 cut you want to
relax the decentralization minimum that's the that's the os cut the app cut oh wow oh we were i've been
here a few times i've never actually seen the water i always thought we were higher up i'm a little
disappointed to be honest it's it's sometimes it's like uh crystal clear blue and then it's just
breathtaking that would be amazing but right right now we're in the clouds a bit um but relaxing the
decentralization requirement in the sense of you initiate a chat session and you just go over there's one
server yeah central server uh and you know i think that's fine for a while uh i want something that's
really reliable and i mean to some degree that's what chat relays are supposed to be for you just
run your own and what are chat relays it's basically special purpose relays that are only four dms and
you just yeah you announce which ones you use and then it routes over this kind of central point where
i'm torn here is like okay so now we're just building a chat server so like why do we patch it on
top of nostril yeah i do agree like that's well i don't know if i agree or not but it's just like
um to me nostril is a broadcasting system and we shouldn't we shouldn't like you know monkey patch
and we should so you broadcast you're like hey this is how to find me on this this is the relay i'm on
this is the chat server i use right so use it for those types of things if you're doing an audio call
like yeah look there for you we're not going to do audio and video calls over relays right like we're
gonna use we're gonna use mock obviously i have a half implementation of that too you have lots of
half implemented things yeah so that's why i gotta get the hell out of here i gotta get the hell out of
software engineering i have to ship all right you know all right violent yeah violent you have to ship
violent violent shipping like uh yeah there's gonna be blood everywhere no that's oh my god oh my god
shooting yourself in the foot shipping violently that's not only new new os coming i'm still
disappointed that it isn't called moon os i'm probably i could call it moon os but that's kind
of a pretentious shadow shadow it is no well these are all provisional i was calling it fundroid for a
while but that sounded not serious no that's not that's not good no shadow is fine and how does how
is how is sovereign engineering from your point of view now i'm glad that i don't have to do absolutely
everything myself anymore yeah that's good because that literally killed me yeah i was kind of like
in the fetal position crying on the floor most days what was hard about it just too much just running
open sets and sovereign engineering at the same time it just killed me um yeah and uh how it is for me i
i'm glad it's still working i'm glad it's still working in the sense that uh people are actually
fired up and excited that was kind of the goal from from the get-go and turning that excitement into
actually shipped software violently shipped software um that's the the whole point of the thing yeah and i'm
i'm i was in the same boat as you like you mentioned you know um having the opinion that all the ideas
are super crazy that's never going to work there was my opinion i was the first user i think of tollgate
like they demoed it and i was the first guy that actually
managed to send e-cash and actually got a connection and so on and i was like this is awesome
but it's also very retarded no one's going to use it yeah and just that the project is still alive and
from that came phips yeah that that makes me insanely bullish on sovereign engineering yeah like that's
i think that's where it's like you want to i mean the the retard max idea you know it's like you want
to yeah yeah like it's it's oftentimes so like i don't know sovereign engineering is retired where
the good where the good ideas come from yeah where do you get your ideas no no no exactly this is actually
a profound point though it's like it's like how do i'm trying to think of like examples uh
like you know i don't know like airbnb for example was like you know there's oh wow like some of these
things that have become very popular or uber right like you had to be kind of in a crazy weird position
to think that's a good idea right yeah like the people who were there were like you know it also
it came up at the time where the go-to wisdom was like don't go into strangers cars yeah exactly
like these were crazy you know you had to like be out on the frontier being in a very different
situation to to to ever have that idea and so that's what i think what's interesting because
like tollgate was the other one where i'm i mean i'm still basically like this like no one's ever
going to use this but last friday they were fucking showing me how they do their ci how they build
the releases and i'm like oh you guys this is you can do so much better and so by the end of the
night drinking beers i i'd figured out how to flash one of the routers with rust code and nix and like
so you're a tollgate contributor i'm i'm i'm gonna write the next version of it i think
i don't even think it's a good idea
yet but also to be fair i mean um uh we mentioned copper door a couple of times already he comes from a
very strange community of people right like no one basically has his background yeah of coming from a
you know like free state hippie community in india yeah that gets basically bulldozed by the government
right now yeah and and just like 2 000 people growing up in a commune that's completely off the grid
similar to the amish right yeah the same idea yeah and it's like obviously he comes up more hippie-ish
and more yeah and they are technologically savvy yeah and they are they are not and like hindu
spirituality like exactly like all like very like in that context the project makes much more sense
yeah he also he has people that that are begging to get something like that so that they can use it
and deploy it in their communities you know one in some sense like i kind of hope to see
the world become a little more like this right like i do really like it's coming i really like
the amish and i really hate the uh i really hate living like feeling like we live in like a shopping
mall like in america i feel like a lot of times i like live in a fucking shop i've been trying to
rent an apartment the last couple weeks and like for two weeks they have not accepted any proof of income
i have because i don't have like a w like an actual formal employer but like i you know have a few
income streams that is plenty for this apartment yeah they won't acknowledge any of them uh i've been
trying to i have like a little bit quite enough bitcoin on an exchange that would like be like this
is enough proof that i think they won't take self-custody bitcoin obviously like it's just a screenshot
and like like but they wouldn't on the exchange they wouldn't take the screenshot
you know yeah it's like or not screenshot the the uh the the statements yeah the statements wouldn't
they they they wouldn't upload to their system yeah according to them you have no money according
to them i have no money yeah uh and like i can't literally like i can't figure out how to rent an
apartment right now it's like i just want to kill myself like i want to be amish i i i know a commune
in india yeah i know so like i don't know and some i mean then that's the fips thing right like
fips is probably never going to be the you're not going to have one mesh on the entire internet like
it's probably not going to be fast enough or this or that who knows maybe maybe maybe not but like
i don't know like this more you know going a little little bit away from the having one one market
system that you plug into yeah absolutely uh towards something that's more like amish or yeah i mean
that's what's already happening and if you know lots of bitcoiners then you know like people just buying
properties and houses with bitcoin outright circumventing the whole system yeah you know
yeah it's it's we're at the point now where you can do that and it's basically you're living in a
parallel economic system and i think the fips you live just in a parallel internet system yeah in a
parallel communication layer in some sense and i i definitely see where that's going and it's it's
funny that you brought up the the amish and and kind of like uh um you know our friend bitstein he
has this mission as well yeah he wants to orange pull the amish yeah and his head is in a similar
place yeah and i talked with shadrach as well and yeah he actually moved he's doing it yeah he moved
to amish country to orange build the amish no it was interesting i was talking to him and it was like
i was like so i always had the sense that they were against technology and no they're not against
technology per se they're against dependence exactly yeah dependence is the issue yeah so like um yeah
rack pull is already issue they won't buy a car because it's unclear yeah you can't really maintain
it yeah in the way that you can maintain a buggy yeah you can always repair that buggy right yeah
they won't build the buggy with purely imported leather because you may not be able to import the
leather in the future right and so now they have like leather works and i don't know like i did a road
trip a couple years ago across the u.s and like the most charming place in the entire country was the amish
country for me because like every little you know turn of the road every little gate you could tell
that there was like care in all these things in a way that there is in like japan or parts of europe
right there's just there's you can tell there's care put into the little things yeah and there's a pride
across the community you know there's a communal pride not just like on an individual or family basis
like most of it is in the u.s and that's the close you know the best the closest thing we have to
that is amish country or maybe uh some of the like mormon places in utah or something although yeah
amish country is just so pretty uh it's interesting that you start from basically religious ideas
fundamentally and that's the end result right i think you have to by the by the fruits uh you
shall know that where you get your ideas from yeah but that's uh looping it back hey jesus where do you
get your ideas from exactly i'll record with jesus and i'll ask him yeah yeah yeah but to to the point
of being um resistant to rug pulls i think we are still at a point technologically where people have
just no idea how stuff works because it's just it's it's very easy to understand okay here is your horse and
your buggy yeah and you can repair the wagon at any point in time with just very simple tools because
everything is so simple but to me that's what bitcoin is as well bitcoin is very complex but but
breaking it down it's just like once you understand cryptography and once you understand proof of work
yeah there is no dependency on anything yeah and i think that's what phipps and nostr and all those
that's what nostr is yeah that's what nostr is that's what i like about nostr it's it's just it's
all so very simple you can run it yourself forever yeah and that's just the yeah again i mean
that's why people want to orange pull the amish because it's the same idea right like you
of course you're not going to produce a mining machine yourself like you're not going to produce
a fab yourself and so on but once you have a computing device you can keep the things intact
like almost indefinitely yeah the that's what's so appealing to me it's is that's why i moved
fully to nostr like i don't know how long ago actually like three and a half years ago or something
like i i nuked all my other stuff quite instantly and just went yeah all in nostr when are you going to
nuke dns i'm getting there i'm getting there i'm getting there i am running phipps already but i
haven't moved everything yeah yeah and we'll allow it i think that's the i think that's the point right
like you you want to you don't want to build on quicksand you want to build on a rock yeah and in like
bitcoin and nostr allows you to do that yeah of course you have to run your own infrastructure you
have to be like fun now that like that's the one of the biggest things with agents is like
i've always hated devops yeah i just really don't like it uh and over the last year now it's like
one of my favorite things i love it when i get to set up a new service and like you know connect things
and you know it's fun like you get a real sense i don't know it's like fun now you think we can do
all that with uh purely local models local compute soon i think so um because that's still a heavy
dependence we have right now as agentic i mean this is one of the reasons why i don't uh well i'm an i'm
an agentic engineer i don't know about you okay i heard i heard i heard i'm not there yet i heard that
you set up a separate open claw for every one of your projects and inside i laughed a little inside
i did laugh i mean i'm not setting it up my main agent is setting it up okay yeah if that if that's
your point of criticism yeah yeah you're like a agentic manager or you're uh fair enough yeah
an agentic middle manager but that's that's kind of what what what what i'm eyeing now the the next
like i don't know 18 months or so yeah i want to go fully like my own hardware no i i do too and
like this is one of the reasons so i have some ideas for how i would like to use open claws and
you know i have a lot of information that i've collected over the course of my life that i'm not
going to put into anthropic yeah you know and i tried a little bit with uh maple and stuff like that
but it's just not quite there you know yeah it's getting there right like these some of these newer
ones are getting close for probably what i want but i feel like over the you know in the next six
months we'll be able to have stuff that you know a you know a a reasonably successful person from the
western world can do everything that the people have been doing on their open claws on their own
but on their own hardware you know using anthropic and chate but on their own hardware and i think
that's coming in like next 12 months for sure maybe the next six months and it's going to take a big
upfront like a decent upfront payment you know you're gonna have to basically like a new car you know
yeah yeah yeah but i think that's it's gonna be worth it yeah sure yeah i mean like if you do the
the application adjusted uh like what a mac why do people buy a car because it brings you freedom
the initial macintoshes were like 10k yeah 7k in today's money and that's if you price it in gold i
think it was like yeah it's like five or six k fiat but like in gold it's like more like 10 20k yeah
like it was really expensive uh at the time for like the apple 2. so i don't know they look at it
like that and yeah the hard thing is me is i just really don't know what to buy yeah like i need to
i need to find somebody to make these decisions for me yeah kind of same i mean you know i i asked my
agents what to buy yeah but i mean we're gonna try to grant some of these people who are who do these
explorations and so that they can help make recommendations across different budgets and
and goals yeah stuff like that we said half an hour ago or longer than that that we're gonna stop
recording but we didn't are you coming to the barbecue um i'll try to i'll have to figure that out now
but let's leave it at that for real we always end on a hug a pleasure to have you as always and we'll
see where shadow is and everything else soon i'll ship violently that's a promise awesome wait a second