It's a great question to ask someone if they don't know what the question actually is.
Are you ready?
Just if you meet someone, that would be great.
But wait, we're recording like just half an hour?
Yeah, let's see.
It's going to be like a 10-minute walk or so.
We'll be fine.
Let's see.
We'll do one before and one after.
All right.
And we'll compare notes.
We'll see how it goes.
You should just have these set up.
And I would not even know if it was recording the entire time.
No, that's how we roll.
I did this with Justin once.
I didn't even release it yet.
He was talking about browsers.
Rewriting all the browsers in sync or something.
No, but we'll see.
All right, great.
It just pops in every single time.
Perfect.
Yeah, there's also going to be, you know, you can't disable it.
I haven't figured out how to disable it in this car.
Every, every, you'll see, every five minutes, it's going to tell you what the traffic is like.
You know, it's going to build, the radio pops on and it's going to be like traffic, traffic stuff.
Well, it's important.
Yeah, it's very important.
All right.
So, you know.
Oh, yeah, we're recording.
We're recording.
Yeah, we've been recording for a while.
You know the, who was it?
God damn it.
Some comedian.
Was it Seinfeld?
Yeah, Seinfeld.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, comedians in cars.
Comedians in cars having coffee.
Bitcoiners in cars.
So, that's what that is now.
It's like, you know.
Well, this could be unfunny comedians.
People that are laughing.
Yeah, unfunny comedians.
Exactly.
I wouldn't call myself a comedian.
Hey, no wind.
Yeah.
No wind?
No wind.
Here.
Oh, that's right.
That's an improvement.
This is a whole new setup.
Yeah.
It's a whole...
The AC is on.
Yeah.
So, maybe that's a...
It's a little bit of wind.
A little bit of wind.
But there's going to be lots of background noise.
And yeah, we'll see how it goes.
You'll have to do all the talking because I'll have to concentrate on driving.
Okay.
And I'm just going to ask you, Pablo, what did you do the last couple of months?
I have no idea.
It's been a long while since I saw you.
So, just bring me up to speed with last six months or so.
Okay, last six months.
Yeah.
What did you do?
What did you work on?
What's new?
Oh, Jesus, man.
I rewrote 10x, like, about a hundred times.
Every single time in JavaScript or, like, what was the point of doing, right?
I'm staying with TypeScript.
There is, like, a...
There is a very cool framework.
You know, Versil is paying for it.
So, endless money.
Ah, great.
And it's fucking really good.
It's really good.
There's a lot of insane annoyances with regards to building for, like,
Anthropic, and OpenAI, and Olama, and, you know, like, all the different providers.
They all have different things.
And Gemini, they all have very different subtleties.
And...
So, what kind of component would you need to rebuild for all of those?
What part of 10x?
Like, if I were to not use the stuff that they...
The Versil...
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, basically, you need to implement every single provider in a way that works for
every single, like, the nuances.
So, for example, Gemini gives you the reasoning encrypted with a key that they have.
You don't have it.
So, when you call it for a second run, for a second...
So, the way agents work is the reason-act loop, right?
So, it reasons that it will do something.
It might or might not use a tool.
And then you need to provide back the output from the tool.
And then it goes and goes and goes until it decides that it's done.
So, on every single turn, it will...
For Gemini, it will give you back an encrypted payload that you must provide back in a certain
fashion.
So, there is, like, a lot of subtleties.
They always are fucking breaking all the time.
They are completely, like, how Brock works is different than how Olama works, how JGPT works,
or OpenAI is different how...
Like, that stuff is a lot of fucking co-op that is really fucking annoying to run.
And so, they abstracted that all away.
They abstract all that away.
And there is a shitload of people that are finding all the little subtleties for all the
different providers.
There is, like, I don't know, like, 200 different providers.
Yeah.
So, it's insanely useful.
It saves me a lot of work.
Because, before, I had this written within 10X for each one of them, but it was so painful.
Yeah.
But the underlying structure of 10X, the idea, so to speak, of 10X and the general structure
didn't change too much.
It changed.
It actually changed a lot.
Really?
Okay.
Yeah.
It's super interesting.
I'm finding, like, this is the most interesting work that I've done probably ever in my career.
It's so fucking fascinating, all this stuff.
So, bring me up to speed.
Because it's still, like, a multi-agent thing that kind of uses Noster as their underlying
base for the agents to communicate, right?
Every communication is a Noster event, which gives you, like, a lot of really interesting
benefits.
Like, for example, you can trace what each agent did, because they're each signing with
their own pub keys.
Yeah.
But you can also trace all the thinking as a tree, because it's, you know, like, all
the events are linking to the previous one.
So, you can trace perfectly at which point within a tree, you can trace at which point you
want to inject a different break on the fork of the communication.
Yeah.
It's actually kind of interesting, because Cloud Code, I don't know if you use Cloud Code.
I've used it a little bit, but I wouldn't say, like, I'm super familiar with it.
So, Cloud Code, I think, is the most popular framework for developers.
It's insanely powerful.
And they are kind of doing something similar with regards to, like, introducing this ability
of going back up the tree of the conversation.
Yeah, okay.
But it's insanely hard.
Yeah.
And it's insanely hard, because they're trying to kind of, like, mimic a tree structure,
but starting from the point where there are no guarantees of how everything is linked together.
Mm.
Um, so it feels, it feels like fake.
It feels like a, like a fake structure.
Uh, when you want to fork a conversation, for example, and go somewhere else, or you want
to refer to one point in time and address that point in time without forking the conversation.
There is no, like, an event, any ID of the message.
I see.
You cannot say, this ID was wrong in this way, you know?
That's actually an interesting kind of comparison, just like, Git, for example, made version control
completely addressable, and it's also a tree, and so on.
Exactly.
And that's the same idea, but just with using Nostra events for, like, agent conversations.
Exactly.
Um, and you can also link them, of course.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Interesting, okay.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's actually insanely fascinating.
And one of the most interesting things that I realized is that when I started working on, you know,
this, the, um, my thing, it was very, um, like, imperative programming style, where I was giving tools and giving frameworks to the agents to kind of, like, sandbox them.
Yeah.
And the more I work using Tenet, the more I realize that all these sandboxes are limiting the power of the thing.
So, me going in and actually deleting, like, 80% of the code of a subsystem improves it.
Like, all of a sudden, it's way simpler, like, way, way, way simpler, and it performs much better.
So, like, you know, you know, there was always this theoretical thought experiment of, like,
once we have super intelligent AI, it would obviously be, you know, like, captured in a certain environment.
And how would it break out?
Like, it would bribe people, and it would, like, you know, like, like, there's, there's all these fancy ways of, like, how an AI breaks out of its confinement.
And you're telling me, it's like, no, it's just, like, it's way more powerful if you just don't build the confinement in the first place.
Give them money, give them money, why don't they go wrong?
Yeah, exactly.
That would have been my next question, actually.
You still, because one of the components I really like is just every agent having their own wallet and having, having cents to spend.
Yeah.
Tell me more about that.
If there, did anything change, if anything?
Yeah, I, I, I, I, I removed that.
Okay.
Uh, mainly because there was nothing for them to, to actually buy.
Um, mostly because, you know, like, lightning adoption is, it's not quite there.
Even with Routzer and Pay Per Queue or, and those things popping up?
Yeah, but, but, like, they can pay for tokens for sure, and, but I already give them basically limitless tokens.
Um, that's one of the, you're subsidizing all your agents.
It's, it's a, it's a, it's a commune.
Yeah, yeah.
But you're the first communist to, to remove all the walls.
Um, I, I, I think I'll, I'll add it at some point.
I, I, I removed a bunch of things from, from the system to kind of, like, simplify it.
I, I, I've been basically just deleting code.
Um, so, like, it's super interesting.
One of the things is that when, um, when I first started, I thought, okay, what is kind
of like an, an abstract, um, um, an ambiguous enough model for giving the agents, because
one of the things that agents are constantly forgetting to do things.
Yeah.
It's like a running thing.
You tell them, go do this thing, and they'll do, like, 10%, and they'll be, oh, okay, I'm
done.
Uh, so, just putting them in a loop makes it quite easy.
They, they pick up, oh, I forgot this part, I put to do, to do here, or whatever, right?
Um, then, so, to give it more structure, when I started, I gave them, like, faces, where
the, the, the, like, the, the, the, the parent agent would be, I have these, these five bases,
which is, like, whatever, research, or, uh, yeah, I think it was research, planning, execution,
uh, chores, no, uh, review, chores, and then, um, fuck, uh, learning, or, there's another
word, it's not learning, uh, reflection, yeah, the reflection phase.
And, to me, that felt ambiguous enough that it could be used for non-software development
and stuff.
Oh, it did turn on.
Yeah, totally.
I thought you were kidding.
Um, the sun is fucking blinding me.
I don't know how you can drive.
You can't, you can't move that.
No, I know.
I, I, I, I reached to move it.
No, you, you'll, you'll just have to stare into the light.
That's how it's gonna be.
Just embrace it.
Yeah.
Like Trump.
Maybe as an explanation, we have the, we have the microphones on the sun, what are those
called?
On the sun cover things.
Sun screens, thingies.
So you can't move them.
And we're, we're, we're driving directly into the sun.
It's great.
It's good stuff.
So.
Jesus.
So did you, you still have those kind of, uh, uh, phases, like research phases?
No.
So, so that's the interesting thing.
I ended up removing that.
Uh, I need the system.
So what I did instead is I gave tools to, for each patient to define its own phases,
which to me was like fucking mind blowing because that meant that the agents can define what
is their workflow, you know, like a marketing head, for example, I have like marketing teams
on the, on the, on the projects.
The marketing head has maybe, um, reviewing, like reviewing the, or, or planning or whatever.
I don't know.
I don't know about marketing, but they're facing whatever they do.
Whatever they do.
Whatever the fuck marketing people do.
Yeah.
Like dancing with pixels and like, who knows coming up with words.
Um, it's probably different than what a writer would do or what, uh, you know, whatever,
like an accountant would do.
Yeah.
I see.
So that allows me to for, for the, uh, like the department heads to have their own faces,
which they define within the workflow that makes sense for that particular niche.
And then that means that, um, because each agent can have it, their own faces.
That means that the work, the workflows are composable.
So like the CEO agent can have one workflow.
It doesn't need to know what the, whatever the, the, the, the engineer director has a workflow,
what that workflow looks like.
It just has to know, I'm going to delegate this task and something will happen.
And I only care about the output.
Yeah.
And something hopefully comes back.
That isn't like absolute dog shit.
Yeah, exactly.
So just like in real life.
Yeah.
Totally.
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
And there's a very good reason for that, which I think is the same reason why we humans
do that is that you cannot hold all that information in your own mind.
Oh, wow.
I know a guy.
I know a guy who, who, who talked about that a lot of basically predicted all that.
I forgot his name, Pablo.
Can you help me and pronounce his name for me?
Please.
I cannot pronounce his name.
You know who I'm talking about.
Okay.
Yeah.
He's on Barbeek.
Rings a bell.
Almost right.
I'm sure.
I'm sure if you, if you, if you scream it into chat GBD, it could make sense of it.
It's John Remakey, of course.
It's not that hard.
Every time I hear you say his name, I crack up.
Remake.
But every single time I say it, I say it differently.
It's different.
It's different every time.
No, it's John Remakey.
Yeah.
He basically predicted all that.
That's also, I mean, there is a reason why our brain is structured in the way it is and
works in the way it is.
And we have all these kind of heuristics and so on.
You can't, like, a single entity can't make sense of a whole organization, for example.
It's too complex.
And that's why you need to specialize, why you need to have these kind of tree structures,
why you need to have certain heuristics and why you need, for example, break it down to
prices, break it down to profits, those kind of things.
A hundred percent.
And I think the interesting thing is that it's not only a single entity, a single human or
a single agent, it's even within the single run, like a thought process.
Oh yeah, sure.
You cannot even understand the whole thing you're doing at the same time.
Yeah.
That's why you write and then you go for a book and then you edit.
Yeah.
That's also why interruptions are so devastating.
Like everyone who, whoever did any kind of mental work.
Oh shit.
What is that?
What is what?
That is limestone.
That is fucking amazing.
There's lots of good climbing here.
Oh wow.
Yeah.
But that's, that's, that's not a, I don't think there's any rules there.
No, no, it doesn't look like it, but that's amazing.
Wow.
I'm glad, I'm glad you're paying attention to the, to the right things.
Um, no, but it's also like, that's, uh, that's, that's also why kind of everyone knows
that if you're really concentrating on something, if someone interrupts you, it's like devastating.
Like, like, like the last four hours are gone and you know, you can't, you can't back,
go back into it.
And it's, it's literally because you can't hold it all in your head.
You have to be in the flow state and then certain things happen and so on.
And you can't kind of pause and press play again and all those kinds of things.
Yeah, totally.
Totally.
But, but, but even when you're going through a session like that of deep work and then you
come back the day after, or you go for whatever.
Oh yeah, yeah.
And you come back.
Sure.
You come back with a fresh mind and you'll see things that you didn't see before.
Sure.
It's the same person.
Yeah, yeah.
But you're not actually the same person.
Oh sure.
I mean, that's why all the cognitive scientists know all that.
That's why, that's why people have whiteboards in their showers because shower thoughts are
a real thing where you actually relax and you're in a different state of mind.
Yeah.
And that's also, again, like Vareike talks about that a lot.
It's also in groups, for example, something like brainstorming actually works.
And there is such a thing like team spirit.
And if you get the right people together and you just talk about the thing for like two
hours, something will come up that each individual, it would have been impossible for each individual
to come up with.
I mean, some engineering.
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that's kind of the main idea behind sovereign engineering to kind of produce
this effect in some sense, um, as, as best as we can.
But what I think it's interesting.
And I, I never use 10 X.
I really have to, to, I actually met people who, who installed it and run it.
Can you believe it?
I was mind blown.
I was like, wow.
It's like, I thought it was only Pablo, but there's other people that actually managed
to run it and use it.
And I even, I saw you're done with the rewrite now, right?
Like I saw you just, you just released a version.
I saw it on the, the Noster compass, which is basically the new, the new Noster recap,
I guess.
Yeah.
It's really cool.
Yeah.
It's really, really good.
It's really cool.
And so, okay.
So you remove the wallets, you rewrote all of it multiple times.
Many times.
So many times.
You deleted 90% of the code that the agents wrote.
Basically, yes.
So, which is what you have to do.
I mean, they just write way too much.
Would you say you're happy with it now?
Or what's the...
I'm insanely happy.
And one thing that I've noticed is that for the past month, all the work that I'm doing,
it's like, I have to really think about what I'm doing.
Okay.
Every single thing that pops up is something that I have to go for a walk and think.
Ah, so if something pops up, it's a hard problem.
It is an insanely hard problem.
Okay.
And the rest, the grant work is done by the agents.
Interesting.
So, for example, one of the things that I did, I made one project.
So everything within TEDx is organized in project buckets, right?
Everything single project has one agent.
By default, I always only put the HR agent.
And then I go into a conversation with the HR agent.
So you're a true C-level executive and you just talked with HR.
Is that what you're telling me?
Oh, my God, Pablo.
Oh, my God.
No, no, no.
Here's the thing.
Oh, my God.
So for the new project that I'm doing now...
Get out of the car right now.
That's terrible.
It's beneath my line.
Exactly.
Oh, my God.
It's so bad.
For each project, I now create...
For example, I rewrote Olaz.
And I build the Olaz management project, which only has CEO, CTO.
And at some point, it will have like a CMO or shit like that.
So like, you know, chief level, they cannot see the code.
Like the code is so far removed, like literally...
Just like in the real world.
They wouldn't be able to make sense of it.
And that's a great thing.
No CLOVE executive needs to get their hands dirty with actual code.
Anything like it.
Oh, my God.
And then I have the Olaz iOS project.
And then a different Olaz Android project.
And then a different Olaz web project.
Each one of them is using a Noster library that is native.
Okay.
So I wrote NDK Swift, which is a port of NDK that I wrote.
All vibe coded.
Okay.
It works insanely well.
Interesting.
It is so fucking cool.
Yeah, I think that's very viable.
That's very viable.
Like there is existing code that a human wrote.
Translate it to another language.
Translate it.
There are insane amounts of tests.
Yeah.
So you can validate what actually works, what doesn't.
Yeah.
You can validate, okay, how does the...
Did you look at it?
Did you look at the test?
I looked at the results of the test.
And I actually built out a bunch of applications.
And they work insanely fucking well.
I actually...
Maybe take a glance at the tests.
Because it's just like, you know...
No, no.
I test by using the application.
Okay.
Everything loads.
It does the array...
The right amount of connections.
It does compiling of requests in the right way.
It does event publishing in the right way.
Oh shit.
To the right places.
Wait.
I disconnected.
Oh my god.
Does it still work?
No one knows.
Test test one two.
Okay.
But they record locally, right?
I think they do.
But it would be such a shame.
Because then I would have to do things manually.
And I really don't want to.
Which will ever happen.
I really don't want to.
So I just disconnected the thing for a couple seconds.
Yeah.
We'll see.
We'll be surprised.
We'll see.
All right.
I would say actually put on a jacket.
Yeah.
Maybe like 10-15 minutes or so.
Yeah.
But we'll come back to the native stuff.
It's so fucking interesting.
Because I think all the multi-platform things are making no longer make any sense whatsoever.
Like they only make sense.
Because it's actually the only reason for doing multi-platform stuff is.
Wait.
I can put this.
Oh, thank you.
Yes.
That'll be great.
The only reason for the multi-platform stuff is actually to like save on developer hours.
It's only for economic reasons, but it's always a compromise.
Yeah.
Because even the experience of an iOS application must be different than an Android application.
It's not the same app.
Yeah.
That's why the cross-platform stuff always kind of feels a little bit wonky.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And when you can afford it, you see that teams prefer to have three different code bases.
Yeah.
Sure.
Three different apps.
Yeah.
And I think stuff like React Native or Flutter or all these things, they only make sense within
that paradigm when you're actually writing code.
Yeah.
But if you're just programming in English, it makes no sense.
Programming in English.
Did you see there was a big rant that went viral on Twitter by a programmer that basically
is like, I'm just, I'm sitting in front of the computer for eight to ten hours just typing
English into a text box.
100%.
Yeah.
And he hates it and he kind of…
I think Fiashef sent it to me today.
He sent me something.
I think that was the one.
But actually, I completely agree.
Whenever I use like hard code or the anti-gravity thing or any of this, the developer experience
is like, took a step back like 50 years.
It's fucking horrible.
Because you're basically yelling to someone that is lying to you.
Yeah.
That will take all the fucking shortcuts.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, you yourself are not an engineer anymore, which is actually… coding itself is a beautiful
thing.
You have a hard problem, you're smashing your head against it and it's actually really joyful
once you figure it out and you make it work and so on.
All that's gone.
And now…
And replaced for screaming into someone that is lying to you.
Yeah, yeah.
That is for the most part incompetent.
I mean, you're talking like a real C-level executive now.
I told you.
Yeah.
I've changed.
Yeah.
That's what it is.
All your minions, they're all stupid.
They're all lying to you.
They all think they're underpaid.
They all want to unionize.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Just wait.
This is going to happen.
Just wait.
But yeah, it's a different job, I would say.
It is a completely different job.
Yeah.
And the experience, I think the experience is right now is as bad, like being a developer
right now is as bad as it's been, at least in our lifetimes.
Yeah, I think, again, I think it's because it's a different thing.
And we're in this transition period.
Yes.
Because what was part of this rant was also kind of, you know, crank out the insane amount
of slop just to hit the insane deadlines, like those kind of things.
And I think that the industry is trying to adjust and now everything is super easy.
Everything can be done super, super quickly.
Yeah.
Which is, of course, not the case.
No.
You can't produce slop super quickly.
You can't produce 100,000 lines of code that is repeating the same thing over and over.
And that's kind of, like, I want to point this out, like, that's why Vibe coding has
been a concern for server engineering, because all we want to do is kind of prototype.
It's that part.
All we want to do is kind of more or less play around with ideas and build, like, almost
like throwaway prototypes in some sense, where it's like, does this work?
Like, just build enough to validate the idea.
Yeah.
And if the idea works, then pursue it properly.
And if it doesn't work, there is nothing lost.
Yeah.
Like you wasted maybe like two afternoons or something.
Yeah.
And, but like, in the software industry, like, actual software engineering is a different
discipline.
I think that's also why Vibe coding emerged as a term and stuck because it is a different
thing.
It is a different thing.
I think that it's a toy perception is what's going to change massively.
Like writing NDK.
Oh, I think it already changed.
It took me.
For really good people, it already changed.
Yeah.
For people that lean into it.
I think so.
But I think very, very few people actually do Vibe coding in the, in the right way.
Um, I think a lot of people are still in the, in the jail of looking at the code or telling
now the specification must go like this and do this and do it this way and do it that way.
Um, and I think that doesn't make any sense anymore.
Yeah.
To me, the fact that it, it was able to build NDK Swift and it's on a fucking amazing library.
It works insanely well.
It does the outbox compilation, like all that stuff that is so fucking hard to do, right?
Yeah.
So hard.
Huh.
And it just does it.
And then I rebuild the same thing in Kotlin.
Yeah.
I haven't opened the code a single time and I built applications using it.
It just works.
Yeah.
And the application just fucking works.
Yeah.
Interesting.
The, the, the, so for example, you publish an event, they are, both of them are integrated
with a NosterDB.
Yeah.
Like wheels.
Yeah.
As the, as the cash adapter.
Yeah.
Um, it does neg entropy syncing.
It does offline publishing.
Yeah.
When you, when you connect, when the device goes back online, it does all the publishing
of all the events to the right relays.
It remembers which release didn't, wasn't not able to publish to.
It does all that stuff.
And it's just works.
Nice.
NIP 60 support, like all the things, man, everything.
I, I, I, I'm so fucking impressed by the fact that after, I don't know, it probably took
like maybe two days of the thing running.
Nice.
Uninterrupted of the thing running and running and running and running and running and running
and running.
And it produces that thing.
And then it creates application.
It says the application, like it actually launches the iOS simulator.
It clicks around and it checks and refreshes.
It checks what subscriptions did it create?
Like all that stuff.
But the fact that you, I just want to, I just want to reflect on that kind of the fact that
you were able to build a system to, that you were able to build something that runs for
two days straight, like spawns multiple agents, all these things and bring something back.
Like it doesn't go off the track and it doesn't go into slop land.
Like that, that's amazing.
It is, it is absolutely mind blowing.
So one of the things that it has, because the Asians themselves, like that's to me, that's
the interesting thing is that each Asian doesn't need to be super smart.
Each Asian, they still go off the rails.
Oh yeah.
Constantly.
Yeah.
It's just what, so when, when an Asian delegates to another Asian, that Asian, that delegated
knows what it wants back.
Yeah.
Doesn't know how to get there.
That's, that's, that's similar, like how the image generation things work.
They, they're all adversarial in nature.
Right.
Where you have like, uh, one step is like, it's basically something that does categorization
really well and will tell the generator, like, does this look like a face?
Yes or no.
Right.
Basically, or whatever.
And then it just goes back and forth forever.
And, and, uh, it will only stop once the categorization part is happening.
Right.
Like with, yes, that's actually a beautiful face.
Well done.
This is just like, you know, in turn it's a level executive.
Right.
So one of the things is that it's, it's able to, um, when it does the delegation, it has
the, like the tool itself.
It allows us to capture, to listen to the streams of events that the Asian is delegated
to it published.
Yeah.
So it can say, I'm going to delegate.
And after five turns of the agent like thinking, it will capture the nostril events and collapse
them and see, okay, does this make sense?
Or, or is the Asian going off, uh, off the rails?
Yeah.
Every five or 10 or whatever amount of messages it publishes.
Um, it goes back into the Asian.
The other guy keeps on running while the Asian, the delegated C says, is this okay?
Or are we going, of course, or are we adding like, do you still have the confidence score
and those kinds of things?
Yes.
Yeah.
That is absolutely fundamental.
What I'm noticing is that there are a few things that are fundamental.
Most of it is not required.
Like, like again, so for example, the faces, I, I removed it like three days ago.
It's super interesting because now I'm on like on vacation.
The Asian has been running the entire time.
How much, how much money do you burn?
Uh, I'm on 700 a month.
Okay.
Which is fucking nothing when you think about it.
Compared to like you're, you're probably replacing like two or three.
I'm replacing like fucking 30 people.
Yeah.
It's insane.
Yeah.
But the, these days that I'm like, not like on so much and looking at what they're doing,
they've done like fucking amazing work.
Yeah.
It is so fucking mind blowing.
But, but that's the, that's summed up to kind of all the subscriptions that you have
on all the different models and so on.
Yeah.
Two cloud call subscriptions.
Um, yeah.
So this is still subsidized.
That's kind of, that's still, that's still subsidized.
But yeah.
To be honest, um, even at API, if I were paying for API calls full price, it would still be
cheaper.
It still would be cheaper than hiring the amount of, and I'm also like just playing.
We, we, we, we already established that this is like a communist undertaking.
So we're perfectly fine with subsidies.
Exactly.
All right.
But to me, to me, that's one of the things is I'm, I'm running on Opus, which is like the,
the most expensive one, like all the time, constantly Opus, like Opus only.
Um, and I'm not optimizing for like token usage.
I'm like, I think it's comparing the cost of tokens with the cost of human time.
It's like, it's not even a comparison.
Like I can buy more tokens.
I can buy another day for my life.
Yeah.
Um, so to me that makes zero sense.
Um, the radical life extension people would disagree with you.
Yes.
I'll wait to be proven, to be proven wrong.
Um, the, um, I'm, I'm, another thing that, that you, you, you would probably very intuitively
understand.
I'm never running into, um, compression of, of context windows.
I never, none of the Asians run by themselves in one instance for so long.
Interesting.
That's cool.
That's really cool.
That's a big benefit.
So you, you, you build a hierarchy that's big enough so that the atomic components of the
hierarchy are done with their task.
Like very, very early.
Yeah.
Very early.
Yeah.
No, that was his, his, his big insight of how to build, uh, uh, automobiles, right?
Like every single worker does like a incredibly stupid task that takes like five minutes to
perform and that's it.
And you can not fuck it up.
It's like so, so obvious that you cannot fuck it up.
Um, I, so for example, one of the things that I do is the Asians typically are bad at correcting
correcting things.
So for example, one of the things that I, I gave them.
Once they went down the wrong path.
It's insanely hard for them to like.
Yeah.
I think everyone who works with LLMs knows that.
So, so.
Once they are convinced that humans have like seven legs, they will just double down and
make up papers, scientific papers to prove it to you.
They'll never go back and go like, Oh, I was mistaken.
It's only two.
Yeah.
Uh, so one of the things that I do is, uh, I gave them tools to delegate, say for example,
one Asian wants to make a plan on how to implement whatever.
Right.
Um, and it comes up with a plan, but it didn't, then it can delegate, uh, either the planning
or the implementation to four different nations at the same time with slightly like four different
type of like, whatever object or inter-programming and functional, whatever it might be.
Yeah.
And they all implement in like a disposable work tree.
They implement the thing all the way to the end, knowing that it's disposable code.
Yeah.
And they just compare notes.
Like how did it go in going this route?
How did it go?
Yeah.
Then you delete that and you only take the, the, the learnings.
And then from that you create an implementation plan.
Okay.
So they do it all the fucking time.
Like they try something, which is kind of how we work as well.
Like you build a prototype, you learn something, you delete it, you do it again, you learn something,
you delete it until you, okay, this is now we understand the problem.
Yeah.
In a much more nuanced way.
To me, that's also the point of like having, I don't know, like 10 different research teams
working on one thing and they all do it in a slightly different way.
And so on and so forth.
And then you can compare and then you, you'll understand something.
One thing I've noticed is that when you work on something hard, you don't really understand
it until you really try to work on the thing.
Oh, sure.
Like you can learn about Bitcoin all you want until you actually write a wallet or whatever
it might be.
Yeah.
You don't really understand it.
Yeah.
I know a guy who, he would call it the participatory knowing.
Can you, can you, you know who I'm thinking of?
No.
Can you tell me the name?
No.
I don't know.
I have no clue.
Oh, Birbik.
It gets always worse.
It's one way street.
Yeah.
He has seven legs, right?
It's still John Murebeki.
I'm not sure.
Maybe he grew some legs.
But yeah, no, that's obviously true.
I mean, for other things, for other things.
Um, and I talked about this in the past, like to, to really understand Bitcoin, for example,
you also really have to use it.
Yeah.
Like just put 12 words in your head and, and, and cross the border, you know, those kinds
of things and actually, like actually do all the things.
Actually lock yourself in a room.
There's no replacement for the on hand learning.
Otherwise, otherwise you won't get it.
All right.
I think we'll have to turn around here.
I just wanted to do one more ring around the Rosie just to not stop the conversation short.
But, um, and so what else is there to talk about on the next side?
Because we're gonna, we're gonna do a little break.
And in, uh, two or two and a half hours from now, I'm gonna talk about, uh, I'm gonna ask
you about all the other projects.
Okay.
But let's, let's bring, let's try to bring the 10X to close in the next like 10 minutes
or so.
So, so what's the, what's the state now?
What's something that you're still unhappy with?
And what do I need to do to, to run it myself?
Uh, right now I'm running it on, uh, on, on iPhone.
It's like the most advanced application.
So buy an iPhone.
No.
No, I, I also have like, uh, it also compiles into, into Mac.
Uh, like a Mac OS proper.
All right.
It's a different client.
Um, I run Nostor on, on, on, on, on Mac.
I don't have an iPhone, but, but, uh, Nostor is a great client.
Nostor is a great client.
It's my, it's my go-to desktop client.
I, I, I, I compared, I compared the code base of, um, how Nostor implements Nostor with
the...
Terrible names though, by the way.
Nostor with a U, you know, it's like, it's just like moon with two years.
And it's all those terrible names.
But anyway, great client.
Well, the naming, the name, the naming podcast is a different podcast.
Oh yeah.
That's true.
Yeah.
All the venture capitalists, they really care about names.
All the, all the program is actually done.
It's just like, you know, Claude Opus, make up a name.
Just whatever, put a U.
Yeah.
Put a U, put two U's.
You might as well.
Someone should, we should fork it and make Nostor with two U's.
Just for nostalgic reasons.
The more premium version.
Exactly.
Put a paywall on something.
Put a shitcoin in.
Exactly.
Now it's Solana.
Great.
So, okay.
So I can actually install this on macOS.
Yeah.
On macOS, I compile a binary that it's like, you can download just the binary or compile it
locally, whatever.
And in terms of, of setup, I just, I would need to give it, um...
A laptop, YOLO mode, just, just say here, do your thing.
Does it, does it support open router, all those kinds of things?
Yeah.
It supports open router.
It supports, uh...
Routester, PPQ as well?
Yeah.
Everything that, all those are JustGPT APIs.
So yeah, it supports Olama.
Same thing with Olama.
It's just a JustGPT.
Yeah.
Um, so...
Can you run it on just local models as well?
You can run it on just local models.
I don't know.
I've never tried with, uh, like the coding with local models.
Yeah.
Unless like, if you have a very beefy GPU, you probably can do it.
I don't have that kind of, that kind of hardware.
Yeah, you spend all your money on an iPhone.
Like, I understand.
No more money left for the GPUs.
No, but it's interesting.
So I bought, um, I was in San Francisco like a month ago.
So I bought the new iPhone, which has, um, the Apple intelligence running locally.
So it's cool because I, I can get it to like summarize the work that has been done in the day locally.
And it can give me like a report of what happened.
And then I have like the voice thing.
So all the stuff that the 10X agents did.
Yeah.
It gives you like a report basically.
Yeah.
So the, the, um, the Asians have like, um, like a scheduling tool where it's cron basically,
where they can schedule, for example, every five minutes or every once a day or once a week,
and they can go and fetch all the conversations, all the, all the, all the threats.
And they can send you like a weekly report of what was done across all the projects,
because they also have a tool that allows them to see all the projects that the same person owns.
And they can communicate across project boundaries.
So you can have one agent that goes to every PM across all the projects and says, what happened this week?
Okay.
And then get us, get a summary.
Yeah.
You, you, you re, you rebuild like a, a Google like company.
Yeah.
Congratulations.
And then, and then I'm going to build a DAO on top.
Is data, is data availability, uh, ever an issue?
Do you, do you run your own?
It's just a relay.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's, it's what, like a hundred megabytes.
I mean, it's just, you know, it's not, no, no, no, no.
It's not, the agents are not spamming events like crazy.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Okay.
I mean, they produce the, like all the, um, they stream events.
Um, but those are ephemeral events.
Yeah.
Uh, but it's, it's, it's a non-issue.
Yeah.
I see.
Cool.
No, what I like most about these ideas is like, I noticed it myself.
I wanted to actually write about it, but it's way easier to speak about it.
Is that, um, my development workflow changed.
Like it's to say that it changed would be unfair because it changed so much.
It's kind of indistinguishable too.
It's a different, it's a different thing that I do now.
Like I, I used to be a developer a very long time ago.
And now I, I, I do something else.
I, I basically speak to computers, but I really like it because again, like as a, uh, you
know, like a big fan of John Mimbeki, I really think that no one knows.
No one knows.
The issue is you can't pronounce the name.
That's kind of, he would be so big.
Like everyone would know if, if people would only be able to pronounce his name.
See, naming.
Naming is the issue.
The VC podcast is right.
He's clearly not a venture capitalist guy.
But, but anyway, like he, he, he says that most of our, like, uh, basically you need dialogue
to solve the really hard problems.
And on my whole, every time now I'm trying to, um, build something new or fix something
and so on, I immediately enter into a dialogue with the LL.
Yeah.
Like what is something that we can do?
And, and all those kinds of things.
Oh my Lord.
What?
That's bad.
It's fully booked out.
Is that true?
Oh, that's really bad.
Well, then we'll have to do something else.
I guess.
Wow.
Damn.
We'll see.
I'll, I'll, I'll, um, we'll just do a, because maybe that's just for the, for the bath
and not for, for, for, for the song, but we'll see.
But anyway, I, I really, I really think that's kind of a, a very different approach.
Like you immediately enter into a conversation and you meet, you kind of lead with questions
and you kind of have this massive back and forth.
And, um, I think most people that have a really bad experience with LLMs, they are that set
on doing a thing in a certain way and they can't budge from it.
And then the thing won't do it in the way you want it to do it.
And then it's like, there's just conflict all the time.
It will never do it in, in the way you thought it should be done.
Yeah.
But one, one of the things that I'm finding is that a lot of times it comes up with a
very decent, elegant solution that I really didn't think of.
Exactly.
I didn't come up with that idea.
Yeah.
And that gets the job done and it's like, you know, good enough for this thing and so on.
And that's it.
And then you can also iterate from there and so on.
But, um, yeah, I, I think that's kind of the new paradigm is that it's all of it is
like conversational and dialogical and so on.
Also search in some sense, you know, like not only, not only development, not only coding
and so on and all those kinds of things, but every, every LLM driven process is like this.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think I, I said this before to, to you at some point that to me, what kind of sent me
down this route is that during cyber engineering, uh, or, um, I, I heard so many people saying,
Oh yeah, this is kind of useful, but it's so good that I'm a developer and I can steer it in the right direction.
And I know what it's doing.
And I thought, what if it's like Bitcoin and an economist where you knowing about the field is not helpful.
It's hindering you.
You're getting in your own way.
Hmm.
What if all I know of development is actually problematic?
Hmm.
What if I just let fucking go?
Yeah.
And then, and then I can start integrating the things, you know, but start with the supposition
that no, actually you need to learn from scratch.
Yeah.
I think it's interesting now, especially in the Nostra side, there's lots of just non developer
people that thanks to Shakespeare and other things, um, really got into my coding and to
produce really cool stuff.
And it's very different.
Like they're obviously not developers.
They, they, they, they're not going to read a single line of code and they're not going
to care and all those kinds of things.
And that's perfectly fine, but they still, I read one post where it was like, it's, um,
the person described of, of getting into a flow state while developing the app.
And, um, it happened to me a couple of times as well, where you're just like, so in the
zone of trying to make this thing kind of shape this thing, how you envisioned it in some sense.
And, and like you, you make micro adjustments every like five seconds and it's, it's almost
like sculpting, you know, like sculpting the thing out of a block of marble.
And, and that, that can be really, yeah, that can be really satisfying.
But, but that's exactly the thing.
It doesn't have anything to do with development.
It's a totally different thing.
It's a totally different thing, but knowing when to stop, knowing in which direction to
take it, that is the art.
Like that is still the thing that you are bringing in as a human, right?
Like, like that is the crafting of the taste, the, the, the, the knowing what is like, something
is wrong or something is right.
Yeah.
The taste part is so great because I, I still listen to the, to the San Francisco AI people
sometimes and so on.
And like every single conversation brings up research taste like 50 times.
It's like, ah, okay.
Well, yeah.
Okay.
Do LLMs have research tastes?
I'm not so sure.
You know, like, no, it's just about which, which research research team has the best research
taste.
It's really fun.
All right.
Let's try our luck.
Let's bring it to a close here.
All right.
And we'll see, we'll see what happens.
If it actually recorded, you mean?
Yeah, that too.
That too.
Oh man.
But that was a solid 45 minutes and I'll pick your brain some more later today.