1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,340 It's a great question to ask someone if they don't know what the question actually is. 2 00:00:04,340 --> 00:00:04,940 Are you ready? 3 00:00:04,940 --> 00:00:07,840 Just if you meet someone, that would be great. 4 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:13,040 But wait, we're recording like just half an hour? 5 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:14,140 Yeah, let's see. 6 00:00:14,140 --> 00:00:17,200 It's going to be like a 10-minute walk or so. 7 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:17,940 We'll be fine. 8 00:00:17,940 --> 00:00:19,300 We'll be fine. 9 00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:19,560 Let's see. 10 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:20,960 We'll do one before and one after. 11 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:21,380 All right. 12 00:00:21,380 --> 00:00:23,180 And we'll compare notes. 13 00:00:23,180 --> 00:00:25,720 We'll see how it goes. 14 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,060 You should just have these set up. 15 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,520 And I would not even know if it was recording the entire time. 16 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,560 No, that's how we roll. 17 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,540 I did this with Justin once. 18 00:00:39,540 --> 00:00:40,720 I didn't even release it yet. 19 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,460 He was talking about browsers. 20 00:00:44,460 --> 00:00:46,800 Rewriting all the browsers in sync or something. 21 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:48,600 No, but we'll see. 22 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,220 All right, great. 23 00:00:51,220 --> 00:00:53,420 It just pops in every single time. 24 00:00:53,420 --> 00:00:54,760 Perfect. 25 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,340 Yeah, there's also going to be, you know, you can't disable it. 26 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,300 I haven't figured out how to disable it in this car. 27 00:01:01,300 --> 00:01:06,860 Every, every, you'll see, every five minutes, it's going to tell you what the traffic is like. 28 00:01:06,860 --> 00:01:11,460 You know, it's going to build, the radio pops on and it's going to be like traffic, traffic stuff. 29 00:01:11,460 --> 00:01:12,300 Well, it's important. 30 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:13,420 Yeah, it's very important. 31 00:01:13,420 --> 00:01:15,160 All right. 32 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:16,220 So, you know. 33 00:01:16,220 --> 00:01:17,160 Oh, yeah, we're recording. 34 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:17,860 We're recording. 35 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:19,320 Yeah, we've been recording for a while. 36 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:23,000 You know the, who was it? 37 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,140 God damn it. 38 00:01:24,140 --> 00:01:25,040 Some comedian. 39 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:25,960 Was it Seinfeld? 40 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:26,720 Yeah, Seinfeld. 41 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:27,020 Yeah, yeah. 42 00:01:27,020 --> 00:01:28,200 Yeah, comedians in cars. 43 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:29,780 Comedians in cars having coffee. 44 00:01:29,780 --> 00:01:31,140 Bitcoiners in cars. 45 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:32,620 So, that's what that is now. 46 00:01:32,620 --> 00:01:34,560 It's like, you know. 47 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,840 Well, this could be unfunny comedians. 48 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:38,880 People that are laughing. 49 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,040 Yeah, unfunny comedians. 50 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:40,520 Exactly. 51 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,080 I wouldn't call myself a comedian. 52 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:42,640 Hey, no wind. 53 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:43,040 Yeah. 54 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:44,520 No wind? 55 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:45,080 No wind. 56 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:45,320 Here. 57 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:46,400 Oh, that's right. 58 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:47,200 That's an improvement. 59 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,180 This is a whole new setup. 60 00:01:49,180 --> 00:01:49,420 Yeah. 61 00:01:49,420 --> 00:01:50,860 It's a whole... 62 00:01:50,860 --> 00:01:51,980 The AC is on. 63 00:01:51,980 --> 00:01:52,640 Yeah. 64 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:53,780 So, maybe that's a... 65 00:01:53,780 --> 00:01:55,320 It's a little bit of wind. 66 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:56,220 A little bit of wind. 67 00:01:56,220 --> 00:01:58,480 But there's going to be lots of background noise. 68 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,240 And yeah, we'll see how it goes. 69 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,780 You'll have to do all the talking because I'll have to concentrate on driving. 70 00:02:05,780 --> 00:02:06,380 Okay. 71 00:02:06,380 --> 00:02:12,060 And I'm just going to ask you, Pablo, what did you do the last couple of months? 72 00:02:12,060 --> 00:02:12,980 I have no idea. 73 00:02:12,980 --> 00:02:14,700 It's been a long while since I saw you. 74 00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:17,820 So, just bring me up to speed with last six months or so. 75 00:02:17,820 --> 00:02:19,300 Okay, last six months. 76 00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:19,540 Yeah. 77 00:02:19,540 --> 00:02:20,280 What did you do? 78 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:20,980 What did you work on? 79 00:02:20,980 --> 00:02:21,460 What's new? 80 00:02:21,460 --> 00:02:22,480 Oh, Jesus, man. 81 00:02:23,060 --> 00:02:26,240 I rewrote 10x, like, about a hundred times. 82 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,700 Every single time in JavaScript or, like, what was the point of doing, right? 83 00:02:30,700 --> 00:02:32,640 I'm staying with TypeScript. 84 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:34,680 There is, like, a... 85 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,880 There is a very cool framework. 86 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,000 You know, Versil is paying for it. 87 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,540 So, endless money. 88 00:02:40,540 --> 00:02:41,180 Ah, great. 89 00:02:41,180 --> 00:02:43,380 And it's fucking really good. 90 00:02:43,380 --> 00:02:44,100 It's really good. 91 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:49,920 There's a lot of insane annoyances with regards to building for, like, 92 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:54,960 Anthropic, and OpenAI, and Olama, and, you know, like, all the different providers. 93 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,400 They all have different things. 94 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,060 And Gemini, they all have very different subtleties. 95 00:02:59,060 --> 00:02:59,560 And... 96 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,300 So, what kind of component would you need to rebuild for all of those? 97 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:05,360 What part of 10x? 98 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:09,280 Like, if I were to not use the stuff that they... 99 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:09,900 The Versil... 100 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:10,280 Yeah. 101 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:18,400 Yeah, I mean, basically, you need to implement every single provider in a way that works for 102 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,300 every single, like, the nuances. 103 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:28,180 So, for example, Gemini gives you the reasoning encrypted with a key that they have. 104 00:03:28,180 --> 00:03:29,260 You don't have it. 105 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,640 So, when you call it for a second run, for a second... 106 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:36,120 So, the way agents work is the reason-act loop, right? 107 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,880 So, it reasons that it will do something. 108 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,140 It might or might not use a tool. 109 00:03:41,140 --> 00:03:44,840 And then you need to provide back the output from the tool. 110 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:49,060 And then it goes and goes and goes until it decides that it's done. 111 00:03:49,700 --> 00:03:55,000 So, on every single turn, it will... 112 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:00,200 For Gemini, it will give you back an encrypted payload that you must provide back in a certain 113 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:00,700 fashion. 114 00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:03,560 So, there is, like, a lot of subtleties. 115 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,000 They always are fucking breaking all the time. 116 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:12,600 They are completely, like, how Brock works is different than how Olama works, how JGPT works, 117 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,780 or OpenAI is different how... 118 00:04:14,780 --> 00:04:20,940 Like, that stuff is a lot of fucking co-op that is really fucking annoying to run. 119 00:04:20,940 --> 00:04:24,080 And so, they abstracted that all away. 120 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:25,780 They abstract all that away. 121 00:04:25,780 --> 00:04:32,180 And there is a shitload of people that are finding all the little subtleties for all the 122 00:04:32,180 --> 00:04:32,760 different providers. 123 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,300 There is, like, I don't know, like, 200 different providers. 124 00:04:35,300 --> 00:04:35,520 Yeah. 125 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,520 So, it's insanely useful. 126 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:38,840 It saves me a lot of work. 127 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:44,740 Because, before, I had this written within 10X for each one of them, but it was so painful. 128 00:04:44,740 --> 00:04:45,260 Yeah. 129 00:04:45,260 --> 00:04:50,540 But the underlying structure of 10X, the idea, so to speak, of 10X and the general structure 130 00:04:50,540 --> 00:04:52,140 didn't change too much. 131 00:04:52,140 --> 00:04:52,360 It changed. 132 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:53,560 It actually changed a lot. 133 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:53,860 Really? 134 00:04:53,860 --> 00:04:54,160 Okay. 135 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:54,360 Yeah. 136 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:55,460 It's super interesting. 137 00:04:55,460 --> 00:05:01,780 I'm finding, like, this is the most interesting work that I've done probably ever in my career. 138 00:05:02,220 --> 00:05:04,460 It's so fucking fascinating, all this stuff. 139 00:05:04,460 --> 00:05:07,900 So, bring me up to speed. 140 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:14,060 Because it's still, like, a multi-agent thing that kind of uses Noster as their underlying 141 00:05:14,060 --> 00:05:16,020 base for the agents to communicate, right? 142 00:05:16,020 --> 00:05:21,280 Every communication is a Noster event, which gives you, like, a lot of really interesting 143 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:21,840 benefits. 144 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:26,840 Like, for example, you can trace what each agent did, because they're each signing with 145 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:27,560 their own pub keys. 146 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:27,900 Yeah. 147 00:05:28,220 --> 00:05:33,280 But you can also trace all the thinking as a tree, because it's, you know, like, all 148 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:34,960 the events are linking to the previous one. 149 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,680 So, you can trace perfectly at which point within a tree, you can trace at which point you 150 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,520 want to inject a different break on the fork of the communication. 151 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:45,060 Yeah. 152 00:05:45,060 --> 00:05:48,760 It's actually kind of interesting, because Cloud Code, I don't know if you use Cloud Code. 153 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,560 I've used it a little bit, but I wouldn't say, like, I'm super familiar with it. 154 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:59,140 So, Cloud Code, I think, is the most popular framework for developers. 155 00:05:59,140 --> 00:06:01,700 It's insanely powerful. 156 00:06:01,700 --> 00:06:08,940 And they are kind of doing something similar with regards to, like, introducing this ability 157 00:06:08,940 --> 00:06:11,020 of going back up the tree of the conversation. 158 00:06:11,020 --> 00:06:11,780 Yeah, okay. 159 00:06:12,020 --> 00:06:13,200 But it's insanely hard. 160 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:13,560 Yeah. 161 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,080 And it's insanely hard, because they're trying to kind of, like, mimic a tree structure, 162 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:23,320 but starting from the point where there are no guarantees of how everything is linked together. 163 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:23,820 Mm. 164 00:06:23,820 --> 00:06:27,560 Um, so it feels, it feels like fake. 165 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,680 It feels like a, like a fake structure. 166 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,800 Uh, when you want to fork a conversation, for example, and go somewhere else, or you want 167 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:39,580 to refer to one point in time and address that point in time without forking the conversation. 168 00:06:39,580 --> 00:06:43,000 There is no, like, an event, any ID of the message. 169 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:43,260 I see. 170 00:06:43,260 --> 00:06:47,180 You cannot say, this ID was wrong in this way, you know? 171 00:06:47,180 --> 00:06:52,800 That's actually an interesting kind of comparison, just like, Git, for example, made version control 172 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,920 completely addressable, and it's also a tree, and so on. 173 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:55,660 Exactly. 174 00:06:55,660 --> 00:07:00,360 And that's the same idea, but just with using Nostra events for, like, agent conversations. 175 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:00,840 Exactly. 176 00:07:01,060 --> 00:07:04,620 Um, and you can also link them, of course. 177 00:07:04,620 --> 00:07:06,240 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 178 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:07,240 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 179 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:08,240 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 180 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:08,620 Interesting, okay. 181 00:07:08,620 --> 00:07:11,400 Yeah, it's, it's, it's actually insanely fascinating. 182 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:17,580 And one of the most interesting things that I realized is that when I started working on, you know, 183 00:07:17,580 --> 00:07:29,480 this, the, um, my thing, it was very, um, like, imperative programming style, where I was giving tools and giving frameworks to the agents to kind of, like, sandbox them. 184 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:29,920 Yeah. 185 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:39,960 And the more I work using Tenet, the more I realize that all these sandboxes are limiting the power of the thing. 186 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:45,900 So, me going in and actually deleting, like, 80% of the code of a subsystem improves it. 187 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:52,120 Like, all of a sudden, it's way simpler, like, way, way, way simpler, and it performs much better. 188 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:59,080 So, like, you know, you know, there was always this theoretical thought experiment of, like, 189 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:05,860 once we have super intelligent AI, it would obviously be, you know, like, captured in a certain environment. 190 00:08:05,860 --> 00:08:07,120 And how would it break out? 191 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:15,260 Like, it would bribe people, and it would, like, you know, like, like, there's, there's all these fancy ways of, like, how an AI breaks out of its confinement. 192 00:08:15,260 --> 00:08:21,140 And you're telling me, it's like, no, it's just, like, it's way more powerful if you just don't build the confinement in the first place. 193 00:08:21,140 --> 00:08:23,480 Give them money, give them money, why don't they go wrong? 194 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:24,600 Yeah, exactly. 195 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,140 That would have been my next question, actually. 196 00:08:27,140 --> 00:08:34,740 You still, because one of the components I really like is just every agent having their own wallet and having, having cents to spend. 197 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:35,120 Yeah. 198 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:36,680 Tell me more about that. 199 00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:39,840 If there, did anything change, if anything? 200 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,080 Yeah, I, I, I, I, I removed that. 201 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:42,480 Okay. 202 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,380 Uh, mainly because there was nothing for them to, to actually buy. 203 00:08:46,380 --> 00:08:54,100 Um, mostly because, you know, like, lightning adoption is, it's not quite there. 204 00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:58,080 Even with Routzer and Pay Per Queue or, and those things popping up? 205 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:05,500 Yeah, but, but, like, they can pay for tokens for sure, and, but I already give them basically limitless tokens. 206 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:09,140 Um, that's one of the, you're subsidizing all your agents. 207 00:09:09,140 --> 00:09:11,980 It's, it's a, it's a, it's a commune. 208 00:09:11,980 --> 00:09:12,920 Yeah, yeah. 209 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:19,520 But you're the first communist to, to remove all the walls. 210 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:25,740 Um, I, I, I think I'll, I'll add it at some point. 211 00:09:25,740 --> 00:09:31,000 I, I, I removed a bunch of things from, from the system to kind of, like, simplify it. 212 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,040 I, I, I've been basically just deleting code. 213 00:09:33,540 --> 00:09:35,800 Um, so, like, it's super interesting. 214 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:42,220 One of the things is that when, um, when I first started, I thought, okay, what is kind 215 00:09:42,220 --> 00:09:49,320 of like an, an abstract, um, um, an ambiguous enough model for giving the agents, because 216 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,860 one of the things that agents are constantly forgetting to do things. 217 00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:53,380 Yeah. 218 00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:54,140 It's like a running thing. 219 00:09:54,140 --> 00:09:59,200 You tell them, go do this thing, and they'll do, like, 10%, and they'll be, oh, okay, I'm 220 00:09:59,200 --> 00:09:59,340 done. 221 00:09:59,340 --> 00:10:03,840 Uh, so, just putting them in a loop makes it quite easy. 222 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,820 They, they pick up, oh, I forgot this part, I put to do, to do here, or whatever, right? 223 00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:18,100 Um, then, so, to give it more structure, when I started, I gave them, like, faces, where 224 00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:24,300 the, the, the, like, the, the, the, the parent agent would be, I have these, these five bases, 225 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:29,820 which is, like, whatever, research, or, uh, yeah, I think it was research, planning, execution, 226 00:10:29,820 --> 00:10:39,860 uh, chores, no, uh, review, chores, and then, um, fuck, uh, learning, or, there's another 227 00:10:39,860 --> 00:10:43,520 word, it's not learning, uh, reflection, yeah, the reflection phase. 228 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:49,960 And, to me, that felt ambiguous enough that it could be used for non-software development 229 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:50,960 and stuff. 230 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:52,960 Oh, it did turn on. 231 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:53,960 Yeah, totally. 232 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,960 I thought you were kidding. 233 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,960 Um, the sun is fucking blinding me. 234 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:01,960 I don't know how you can drive. 235 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,960 You can't, you can't move that. 236 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:04,960 No, I know. 237 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,960 I, I, I, I reached to move it. 238 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,960 No, you, you'll, you'll just have to stare into the light. 239 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:11,960 That's how it's gonna be. 240 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:12,960 Just embrace it. 241 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:13,960 Yeah. 242 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:14,960 Like Trump. 243 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,960 Maybe as an explanation, we have the, we have the microphones on the sun, what are those 244 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:20,960 called? 245 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:21,960 On the sun cover things. 246 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:22,960 Sun screens, thingies. 247 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:23,960 So you can't move them. 248 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,960 And we're, we're, we're driving directly into the sun. 249 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:27,960 It's great. 250 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:28,960 It's good stuff. 251 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:29,960 So. 252 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:30,960 Jesus. 253 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,960 So did you, you still have those kind of, uh, uh, phases, like research phases? 254 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:36,960 No. 255 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:37,960 So, so that's the interesting thing. 256 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,960 I ended up removing that. 257 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:41,960 Uh, I need the system. 258 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:48,960 So what I did instead is I gave tools to, for each patient to define its own phases, 259 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:56,120 which to me was like fucking mind blowing because that meant that the agents can define what 260 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:01,120 is their workflow, you know, like a marketing head, for example, I have like marketing teams 261 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:02,880 on the, on the, on the projects. 262 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:10,680 The marketing head has maybe, um, reviewing, like reviewing the, or, or planning or whatever. 263 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:11,680 I don't know. 264 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:13,680 I don't know about marketing, but they're facing whatever they do. 265 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:14,680 Whatever they do. 266 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:15,680 Whatever the fuck marketing people do. 267 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:16,680 Yeah. 268 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:22,680 Like dancing with pixels and like, who knows coming up with words. 269 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:28,680 Um, it's probably different than what a writer would do or what, uh, you know, whatever, 270 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:29,680 like an accountant would do. 271 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:30,680 Yeah. 272 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:31,680 Yeah. 273 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:32,680 I see. 274 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:37,680 So that allows me to for, for the, uh, like the department heads to have their own faces, 275 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:42,680 which they define within the workflow that makes sense for that particular niche. 276 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:48,680 And then that means that, um, because each agent can have it, their own faces. 277 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:51,680 That means that the work, the workflows are composable. 278 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:55,680 So like the CEO agent can have one workflow. 279 00:12:55,680 --> 00:13:01,680 It doesn't need to know what the, whatever the, the, the, the engineer director has a workflow, 280 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:03,680 what that workflow looks like. 281 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:07,680 It just has to know, I'm going to delegate this task and something will happen. 282 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:09,680 And I only care about the output. 283 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:10,680 Yeah. 284 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:11,680 And something hopefully comes back. 285 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:13,680 That isn't like absolute dog shit. 286 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:14,680 Yeah, exactly. 287 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:15,680 So just like in real life. 288 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:16,680 Yeah. 289 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:17,680 Yeah. 290 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:18,680 Totally. 291 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:19,680 Yeah. 292 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:20,680 A hundred percent. 293 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:21,680 A hundred percent. 294 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:23,680 And there's a very good reason for that, which I think is the same reason why we humans 295 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:27,680 do that is that you cannot hold all that information in your own mind. 296 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:28,680 Oh, wow. 297 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:29,680 I know a guy. 298 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:33,680 I know a guy who, who, who talked about that a lot of basically predicted all that. 299 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:34,680 I forgot his name, Pablo. 300 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:36,680 Can you help me and pronounce his name for me? 301 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:37,680 Please. 302 00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:38,680 I cannot pronounce his name. 303 00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:39,680 You know who I'm talking about. 304 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:40,680 Okay. 305 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:41,680 Yeah. 306 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:42,680 He's on Barbeek. 307 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:48,680 Rings a bell. 308 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:49,680 Rings a bell. 309 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:50,680 Almost right. 310 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:51,680 Almost right. 311 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:52,680 I'm sure. 312 00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:56,680 I'm sure if you, if you, if you scream it into chat GBD, it could make sense of it. 313 00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:58,680 It's John Remakey, of course. 314 00:13:58,680 --> 00:13:59,680 It's not that hard. 315 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:02,680 Every time I hear you say his name, I crack up. 316 00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:03,680 Remake. 317 00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:05,680 But every single time I say it, I say it differently. 318 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:06,680 It's different. 319 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:07,680 It's different every time. 320 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:08,680 No, it's John Remakey. 321 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:09,680 Yeah. 322 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:10,680 He basically predicted all that. 323 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:14,680 That's also, I mean, there is a reason why our brain is structured in the way it is and 324 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:15,680 works in the way it is. 325 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:18,680 And we have all these kind of heuristics and so on. 326 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:24,680 You can't, like, a single entity can't make sense of a whole organization, for example. 327 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:25,680 It's too complex. 328 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,680 And that's why you need to specialize, why you need to have these kind of tree structures, 329 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:33,680 why you need to have certain heuristics and why you need, for example, break it down to 330 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,680 prices, break it down to profits, those kind of things. 331 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:36,680 A hundred percent. 332 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:37,680 A hundred percent. 333 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,680 And I think the interesting thing is that it's not only a single entity, a single human or 334 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:46,680 a single agent, it's even within the single run, like a thought process. 335 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:47,680 Oh yeah, sure. 336 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,680 You cannot even understand the whole thing you're doing at the same time. 337 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:51,680 Yeah. 338 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,680 That's why you write and then you go for a book and then you edit. 339 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:55,680 Yeah. 340 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,680 That's also why interruptions are so devastating. 341 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,680 Like everyone who, whoever did any kind of mental work. 342 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:01,680 Oh shit. 343 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:02,680 What is that? 344 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:03,680 What is what? 345 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:04,680 That is limestone. 346 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:05,680 That is fucking amazing. 347 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:06,680 There's lots of good climbing here. 348 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:07,680 Oh wow. 349 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:08,680 Yeah. 350 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,680 But that's, that's, that's not a, I don't think there's any rules there. 351 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,680 No, no, it doesn't look like it, but that's amazing. 352 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:14,680 Wow. 353 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,680 I'm glad, I'm glad you're paying attention to the, to the right things. 354 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:26,680 Um, no, but it's also like, that's, uh, that's, that's also why kind of everyone knows 355 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,680 that if you're really concentrating on something, if someone interrupts you, it's like devastating. 356 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:35,680 Like, like, like the last four hours are gone and you know, you can't, you can't back, 357 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:36,680 go back into it. 358 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,680 And it's, it's literally because you can't hold it all in your head. 359 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,680 You have to be in the flow state and then certain things happen and so on. 360 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,680 And you can't kind of pause and press play again and all those kinds of things. 361 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:47,680 Yeah, totally. 362 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:48,680 Totally. 363 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,680 But, but, but even when you're going through a session like that of deep work and then you 364 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,680 come back the day after, or you go for whatever. 365 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:57,680 Oh yeah, yeah. 366 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:58,680 And you come back. 367 00:15:58,680 --> 00:15:59,680 Sure. 368 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,680 You come back with a fresh mind and you'll see things that you didn't see before. 369 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:02,680 Sure. 370 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:03,680 It's the same person. 371 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:04,680 Yeah, yeah. 372 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:05,680 But you're not actually the same person. 373 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:06,680 Oh sure. 374 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:07,680 I mean, that's why all the cognitive scientists know all that. 375 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,680 That's why, that's why people have whiteboards in their showers because shower thoughts are 376 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,680 a real thing where you actually relax and you're in a different state of mind. 377 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:14,680 Yeah. 378 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,680 And that's also, again, like Vareike talks about that a lot. 379 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,680 It's also in groups, for example, something like brainstorming actually works. 380 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,680 And there is such a thing like team spirit. 381 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,680 And if you get the right people together and you just talk about the thing for like two 382 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:34,680 hours, something will come up that each individual, it would have been impossible for each individual 383 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:35,680 to come up with. 384 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:36,680 I mean, some engineering. 385 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:37,680 Yeah. 386 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:38,680 Yeah. 387 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,680 I mean, that's, that's kind of the main idea behind sovereign engineering to kind of produce 388 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,680 this effect in some sense, um, as, as best as we can. 389 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,680 But what I think it's interesting. 390 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,680 And I, I never use 10 X. 391 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,680 I really have to, to, I actually met people who, who installed it and run it. 392 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:52,680 Can you believe it? 393 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:53,680 I was mind blown. 394 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:54,680 I was like, wow. 395 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,680 It's like, I thought it was only Pablo, but there's other people that actually managed 396 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:58,680 to run it and use it. 397 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,680 And I even, I saw you're done with the rewrite now, right? 398 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,680 Like I saw you just, you just released a version. 399 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,680 I saw it on the, the Noster compass, which is basically the new, the new Noster recap, 400 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:09,680 I guess. 401 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:10,680 Yeah. 402 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:11,680 It's really cool. 403 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:12,680 Yeah. 404 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:13,680 It's really, really good. 405 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:14,680 It's really cool. 406 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:15,680 And so, okay. 407 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,680 So you remove the wallets, you rewrote all of it multiple times. 408 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:20,680 Many times. 409 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:21,680 So many times. 410 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,680 You deleted 90% of the code that the agents wrote. 411 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:24,680 Basically, yes. 412 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:25,680 So, which is what you have to do. 413 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,680 I mean, they just write way too much. 414 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,680 Would you say you're happy with it now? 415 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:31,680 Or what's the... 416 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:32,680 I'm insanely happy. 417 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:37,680 And one thing that I've noticed is that for the past month, all the work that I'm doing, 418 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,680 it's like, I have to really think about what I'm doing. 419 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:42,680 Okay. 420 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:47,680 Every single thing that pops up is something that I have to go for a walk and think. 421 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,680 Ah, so if something pops up, it's a hard problem. 422 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:51,680 It is an insanely hard problem. 423 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:52,680 Okay. 424 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,680 And the rest, the grant work is done by the agents. 425 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:58,680 Interesting. 426 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,680 So, for example, one of the things that I did, I made one project. 427 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,680 So everything within TEDx is organized in project buckets, right? 428 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,680 Everything single project has one agent. 429 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,680 By default, I always only put the HR agent. 430 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,680 And then I go into a conversation with the HR agent. 431 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,680 So you're a true C-level executive and you just talked with HR. 432 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:20,680 Is that what you're telling me? 433 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:21,680 Oh, my God, Pablo. 434 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:22,680 Oh, my God. 435 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:23,680 No, no, no. 436 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:24,680 Here's the thing. 437 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:25,680 Oh, my God. 438 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,680 So for the new project that I'm doing now... 439 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,680 Get out of the car right now. 440 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:30,680 That's terrible. 441 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,680 It's beneath my line. 442 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:33,680 Exactly. 443 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:34,680 Exactly. 444 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:35,680 Oh, my God. 445 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:40,680 It's so bad. 446 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,680 For each project, I now create... 447 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,680 For example, I rewrote Olaz. 448 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:53,680 And I build the Olaz management project, which only has CEO, CTO. 449 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,680 And at some point, it will have like a CMO or shit like that. 450 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,680 So like, you know, chief level, they cannot see the code. 451 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,680 Like the code is so far removed, like literally... 452 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,680 Just like in the real world. 453 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:06,680 Just like in the real world. 454 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,680 They wouldn't be able to make sense of it. 455 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,680 And that's a great thing. 456 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:17,680 No CLOVE executive needs to get their hands dirty with actual code. 457 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,680 Anything like it. 458 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:20,680 Oh, my God. 459 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,680 And then I have the Olaz iOS project. 460 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,680 And then a different Olaz Android project. 461 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,680 And then a different Olaz web project. 462 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,680 Each one of them is using a Noster library that is native. 463 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:33,680 Okay. 464 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,680 So I wrote NDK Swift, which is a port of NDK that I wrote. 465 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:39,680 All vibe coded. 466 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:40,680 Okay. 467 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,680 It works insanely well. 468 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:43,680 Interesting. 469 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:44,680 It is so fucking cool. 470 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:45,680 Yeah, I think that's very viable. 471 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:46,680 That's very viable. 472 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,680 Like there is existing code that a human wrote. 473 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:49,680 Translate it to another language. 474 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:50,680 Translate it. 475 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:51,680 There are insane amounts of tests. 476 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:52,680 Yeah. 477 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,680 So you can validate what actually works, what doesn't. 478 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:56,680 Yeah. 479 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:57,680 You can validate, okay, how does the... 480 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:58,680 Did you look at it? 481 00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:59,680 Did you look at the test? 482 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,680 I looked at the results of the test. 483 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,680 And I actually built out a bunch of applications. 484 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,680 And they work insanely fucking well. 485 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:07,680 I actually... 486 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,680 Maybe take a glance at the tests. 487 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:10,680 Because it's just like, you know... 488 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:11,680 No, no. 489 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,680 I test by using the application. 490 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:14,680 Okay. 491 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:15,680 Everything loads. 492 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:16,680 It does the array... 493 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,680 The right amount of connections. 494 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,680 It does compiling of requests in the right way. 495 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,680 It does event publishing in the right way. 496 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:25,680 Oh shit. 497 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:26,680 To the right places. 498 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:27,680 Wait. 499 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:28,680 I disconnected. 500 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:29,680 Oh my god. 501 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:30,680 Does it still work? 502 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:31,680 No one knows. 503 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,680 Test test one two. 504 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:35,680 Test test one two. 505 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:36,680 Okay. 506 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,680 But they record locally, right? 507 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:40,680 I think they do. 508 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:41,680 But it would be such a shame. 509 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,680 Because then I would have to do things manually. 510 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:44,680 And I really don't want to. 511 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:45,680 Which will ever happen. 512 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:46,680 I really don't want to. 513 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,680 So I just disconnected the thing for a couple seconds. 514 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:50,680 Yeah. 515 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:51,680 We'll see. 516 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:52,680 We'll see. 517 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:53,680 We'll see. 518 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,680 We'll see. 519 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:55,680 We'll be surprised. 520 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:56,680 We'll see. 521 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,680 All right. 522 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,680 I would say actually put on a jacket. 523 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:05,680 Yeah. 524 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:06,680 Maybe like 10-15 minutes or so. 525 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,680 Yeah. 526 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:08,680 Yeah. 527 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:09,680 Yeah. 528 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:10,680 Yeah. 529 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,680 But we'll come back to the native stuff. 530 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,680 It's so fucking interesting. 531 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:22,680 Because I think all the multi-platform things are making no longer make any sense whatsoever. 532 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:23,680 Like they only make sense. 533 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,680 Because it's actually the only reason for doing multi-platform stuff is. 534 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:29,680 Wait. 535 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:30,680 I can put this. 536 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:31,680 Oh, thank you. 537 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:32,680 Yes. 538 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:33,680 That'll be great. 539 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,680 The only reason for the multi-platform stuff is actually to like save on developer hours. 540 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,680 It's only for economic reasons, but it's always a compromise. 541 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:42,680 Yeah. 542 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,680 Because even the experience of an iOS application must be different than an Android application. 543 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:48,680 It's not the same app. 544 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:49,680 Yeah. 545 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,680 That's why the cross-platform stuff always kind of feels a little bit wonky. 546 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:52,680 Yeah. 547 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:53,680 Exactly. 548 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:54,680 Exactly. 549 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,680 And when you can afford it, you see that teams prefer to have three different code bases. 550 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:00,680 Yeah. 551 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:01,680 Sure. 552 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:02,680 Three different apps. 553 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:03,680 Yeah. 554 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,680 And I think stuff like React Native or Flutter or all these things, they only make sense within 555 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,680 that paradigm when you're actually writing code. 556 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:10,680 Yeah. 557 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,680 But if you're just programming in English, it makes no sense. 558 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:14,680 Programming in English. 559 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:20,680 Did you see there was a big rant that went viral on Twitter by a programmer that basically 560 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,680 is like, I'm just, I'm sitting in front of the computer for eight to ten hours just typing 561 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:25,680 English into a text box. 562 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:26,680 100%. 563 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:27,680 Yeah. 564 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,680 And he hates it and he kind of… 565 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,680 I think Fiashef sent it to me today. 566 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,680 He sent me something. 567 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,680 I think that was the one. 568 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,680 But actually, I completely agree. 569 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:48,680 Whenever I use like hard code or the anti-gravity thing or any of this, the developer experience 570 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,680 is like, took a step back like 50 years. 571 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:52,680 It's fucking horrible. 572 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,680 Because you're basically yelling to someone that is lying to you. 573 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:56,680 Yeah. 574 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,680 That will take all the fucking shortcuts. 575 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:58,680 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 576 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,680 So, you yourself are not an engineer anymore, which is actually… coding itself is a beautiful 577 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:04,680 thing. 578 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,680 You have a hard problem, you're smashing your head against it and it's actually really joyful 579 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,680 once you figure it out and you make it work and so on. 580 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:12,680 All that's gone. 581 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:13,680 All that's gone. 582 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:14,680 All that's gone. 583 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:15,680 And now… 584 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,680 And replaced for screaming into someone that is lying to you. 585 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:19,680 Yeah, yeah. 586 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,680 That is for the most part incompetent. 587 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,680 I mean, you're talking like a real C-level executive now. 588 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,680 I told you. 589 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:26,680 Yeah. 590 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:27,680 I've changed. 591 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:28,680 Yeah. 592 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:29,680 That's what it is. 593 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:30,680 That's what it is. 594 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:31,680 All your minions, they're all stupid. 595 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:32,680 They're all lying to you. 596 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:33,680 They all think they're underpaid. 597 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,680 They all want to unionize. 598 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,680 Yeah, exactly. 599 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:37,680 Exactly. 600 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,680 Just wait. 601 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:39,680 This is going to happen. 602 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:40,680 Just wait. 603 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,680 But yeah, it's a different job, I would say. 604 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,680 It is a completely different job. 605 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:48,680 Yeah. 606 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,680 And the experience, I think the experience is right now is as bad, like being a developer 607 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,680 right now is as bad as it's been, at least in our lifetimes. 608 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,680 Yeah, I think, again, I think it's because it's a different thing. 609 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,680 And we're in this transition period. 610 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:04,680 Yes. 611 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:10,680 Because what was part of this rant was also kind of, you know, crank out the insane amount 612 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,680 of slop just to hit the insane deadlines, like those kind of things. 613 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,680 And I think that the industry is trying to adjust and now everything is super easy. 614 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,680 Everything can be done super, super quickly. 615 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:21,680 Yeah. 616 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:22,680 Which is, of course, not the case. 617 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:23,680 No. 618 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,680 You can't produce slop super quickly. 619 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:30,680 You can't produce 100,000 lines of code that is repeating the same thing over and over. 620 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:36,680 And that's kind of, like, I want to point this out, like, that's why Vibe coding has 621 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,680 been a concern for server engineering, because all we want to do is kind of prototype. 622 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:41,680 It's that part. 623 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:47,680 All we want to do is kind of more or less play around with ideas and build, like, almost 624 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,680 like throwaway prototypes in some sense, where it's like, does this work? 625 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,680 Like, just build enough to validate the idea. 626 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:53,680 Yeah. 627 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,680 And if the idea works, then pursue it properly. 628 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,680 And if it doesn't work, there is nothing lost. 629 00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:59,680 Yeah. 630 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,680 Like you wasted maybe like two afternoons or something. 631 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:02,680 Yeah. 632 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:09,680 And, but like, in the software industry, like, actual software engineering is a different 633 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:10,680 discipline. 634 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,680 I think that's also why Vibe coding emerged as a term and stuck because it is a different 635 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,680 thing. 636 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:17,680 It is a different thing. 637 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:18,680 It is a different thing. 638 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:25,680 I think that it's a toy perception is what's going to change massively. 639 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:26,680 Like writing NDK. 640 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,680 Oh, I think it already changed. 641 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:29,680 It took me. 642 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:30,680 For really good people, it already changed. 643 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:31,680 Yeah. 644 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:32,680 Yeah. 645 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:33,680 For people that lean into it. 646 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:34,680 I think so. 647 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:41,680 But I think very, very few people actually do Vibe coding in the, in the right way. 648 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:49,680 Um, I think a lot of people are still in the, in the jail of looking at the code or telling 649 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,680 now the specification must go like this and do this and do it this way and do it that way. 650 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,680 Um, and I think that doesn't make any sense anymore. 651 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:58,680 Yeah. 652 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:06,680 To me, the fact that it, it was able to build NDK Swift and it's on a fucking amazing library. 653 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,680 It works insanely well. 654 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,680 It does the outbox compilation, like all that stuff that is so fucking hard to do, right? 655 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:14,680 Yeah. 656 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:15,680 So hard. 657 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:16,680 Huh. 658 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:17,680 And it just does it. 659 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,680 And then I rebuild the same thing in Kotlin. 660 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:21,680 Yeah. 661 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:27,680 I haven't opened the code a single time and I built applications using it. 662 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:28,680 It just works. 663 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:29,680 Yeah. 664 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:30,680 And the application just fucking works. 665 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:31,680 Yeah. 666 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:32,680 Interesting. 667 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,680 The, the, the, so for example, you publish an event, they are, both of them are integrated 668 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:35,680 with a NosterDB. 669 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:36,680 Yeah. 670 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:37,680 Like wheels. 671 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:38,680 Yeah. 672 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:39,680 As the, as the cash adapter. 673 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:40,680 Yeah. 674 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,680 Um, it does neg entropy syncing. 675 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,680 It does offline publishing. 676 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,680 Yeah. 677 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,680 When you, when you connect, when the device goes back online, it does all the publishing 678 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,680 of all the events to the right relays. 679 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,680 It remembers which release didn't, wasn't not able to publish to. 680 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:56,680 It does all that stuff. 681 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:57,680 And it's just works. 682 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:58,680 Nice. 683 00:26:58,680 --> 00:26:59,680 Nice. 684 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,680 NIP 60 support, like all the things, man, everything. 685 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,680 I, I, I, I'm so fucking impressed by the fact that after, I don't know, it probably took 686 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,680 like maybe two days of the thing running. 687 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:10,680 Nice. 688 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,680 Uninterrupted of the thing running and running and running and running and running and running 689 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:15,680 and running. 690 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:16,680 And it produces that thing. 691 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:17,680 And then it creates application. 692 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,680 It says the application, like it actually launches the iOS simulator. 693 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,680 It clicks around and it checks and refreshes. 694 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,680 It checks what subscriptions did it create? 695 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:28,680 Like all that stuff. 696 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,680 But the fact that you, I just want to, I just want to reflect on that kind of the fact that 697 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,680 you were able to build a system to, that you were able to build something that runs for 698 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,680 two days straight, like spawns multiple agents, all these things and bring something back. 699 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,680 Like it doesn't go off the track and it doesn't go into slop land. 700 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:47,680 Like that, that's amazing. 701 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,680 It is, it is absolutely mind blowing. 702 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,680 So one of the things that it has, because the Asians themselves, like that's to me, that's 703 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,680 the interesting thing is that each Asian doesn't need to be super smart. 704 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,680 Each Asian, they still go off the rails. 705 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:01,680 Oh yeah. 706 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:02,680 Constantly. 707 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:03,680 Yeah. 708 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,680 It's just what, so when, when an Asian delegates to another Asian, that Asian, that delegated 709 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:09,680 knows what it wants back. 710 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:10,680 Yeah. 711 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:11,680 Doesn't know how to get there. 712 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,680 That's, that's, that's similar, like how the image generation things work. 713 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,680 They, they're all adversarial in nature. 714 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:17,680 Right. 715 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,680 Where you have like, uh, one step is like, it's basically something that does categorization 716 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,680 really well and will tell the generator, like, does this look like a face? 717 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:27,680 Yes or no. 718 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:28,680 Right. 719 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:29,680 Basically, or whatever. 720 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,680 And then it just goes back and forth forever. 721 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,680 And, and, uh, it will only stop once the categorization part is happening. 722 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:38,680 Right. 723 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:39,680 Right. 724 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,680 Like with, yes, that's actually a beautiful face. 725 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:42,680 Well done. 726 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,680 This is just like, you know, in turn it's a level executive. 727 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:45,680 Right. 728 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:52,680 So one of the things is that it's, it's able to, um, when it does the delegation, it has 729 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,680 the, like the tool itself. 730 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,680 It allows us to capture, to listen to the streams of events that the Asian is delegated 731 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:00,680 to it published. 732 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:01,680 Yeah. 733 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:02,680 So it can say, I'm going to delegate. 734 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:09,680 And after five turns of the agent like thinking, it will capture the nostril events and collapse 735 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,680 them and see, okay, does this make sense? 736 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,680 Or, or is the Asian going off, uh, off the rails? 737 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:15,680 Yeah. 738 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,680 Every five or 10 or whatever amount of messages it publishes. 739 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,680 Um, it goes back into the Asian. 740 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,680 The other guy keeps on running while the Asian, the delegated C says, is this okay? 741 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,680 Or are we going, of course, or are we adding like, do you still have the confidence score 742 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:32,680 and those kinds of things? 743 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:33,680 Yes. 744 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:34,680 Yes. 745 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:35,680 Yeah. 746 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:36,680 That is absolutely fundamental. 747 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,680 What I'm noticing is that there are a few things that are fundamental. 748 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,680 Most of it is not required. 749 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:47,680 Like, like again, so for example, the faces, I, I removed it like three days ago. 750 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,680 It's super interesting because now I'm on like on vacation. 751 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,680 The Asian has been running the entire time. 752 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,680 How much, how much money do you burn? 753 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,680 Uh, I'm on 700 a month. 754 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:00,680 Okay. 755 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,680 Which is fucking nothing when you think about it. 756 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,680 Compared to like you're, you're probably replacing like two or three. 757 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,680 I'm replacing like fucking 30 people. 758 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:09,680 Yeah. 759 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:10,680 It's insane. 760 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:11,680 Yeah. 761 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,680 But the, these days that I'm like, not like on so much and looking at what they're doing, 762 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,680 they've done like fucking amazing work. 763 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:20,680 Yeah. 764 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:21,680 It is so fucking mind blowing. 765 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,680 But, but that's the, that's summed up to kind of all the subscriptions that you have 766 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,680 on all the different models and so on. 767 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:29,680 Yeah. 768 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:30,680 Yeah. 769 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,680 Two cloud call subscriptions. 770 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:33,680 Um, yeah. 771 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:34,680 So this is still subsidized. 772 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,680 That's kind of, that's still, that's still subsidized. 773 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:37,680 But yeah. 774 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:45,680 To be honest, um, even at API, if I were paying for API calls full price, it would still be 775 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:46,680 cheaper. 776 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,680 It still would be cheaper than hiring the amount of, and I'm also like just playing. 777 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,680 We, we, we, we already established that this is like a communist undertaking. 778 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:54,680 So we're perfectly fine with subsidies. 779 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:55,680 Exactly. 780 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:56,680 All right. 781 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:06,680 But to me, to me, that's one of the things is I'm, I'm running on Opus, which is like the, 782 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,680 the most expensive one, like all the time, constantly Opus, like Opus only. 783 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:19,680 Um, and I'm not optimizing for like token usage. 784 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:25,680 I'm like, I think it's comparing the cost of tokens with the cost of human time. 785 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,680 It's like, it's not even a comparison. 786 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:29,680 Like I can buy more tokens. 787 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,680 I can buy another day for my life. 788 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:32,680 Yeah. 789 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,680 Um, so to me that makes zero sense. 790 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,680 Um, the radical life extension people would disagree with you. 791 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:38,680 Yes. 792 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,680 I'll wait to be proven, to be proven wrong. 793 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:53,680 Um, the, um, I'm, I'm, another thing that, that you, you, you would probably very intuitively 794 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:54,680 understand. 795 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,680 I'm never running into, um, compression of, of context windows. 796 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,680 I never, none of the Asians run by themselves in one instance for so long. 797 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:05,680 Interesting. 798 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:06,680 That's cool. 799 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:07,680 That's really cool. 800 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:08,680 That's a big benefit. 801 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,680 So you, you, you build a hierarchy that's big enough so that the atomic components of the 802 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,680 hierarchy are done with their task. 803 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,680 Like very, very early. 804 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:19,680 Yeah. 805 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:20,680 Yeah. 806 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:21,680 Very early. 807 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:22,680 Yeah. 808 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,680 No, that was his, his, his big insight of how to build, uh, uh, automobiles, right? 809 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,680 Like every single worker does like a incredibly stupid task that takes like five minutes to 810 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:33,680 perform and that's it. 811 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,680 And you can not fuck it up. 812 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,680 It's like so, so obvious that you cannot fuck it up. 813 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:45,680 Um, I, so for example, one of the things that I do is the Asians typically are bad at correcting 814 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:46,680 correcting things. 815 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,680 So for example, one of the things that I, I gave them. 816 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,680 Once they went down the wrong path. 817 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,680 It's insanely hard for them to like. 818 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:53,680 Yeah. 819 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,680 I think everyone who works with LLMs knows that. 820 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:56,680 So, so. 821 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,680 Once they are convinced that humans have like seven legs, they will just double down and 822 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,680 make up papers, scientific papers to prove it to you. 823 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,680 They'll never go back and go like, Oh, I was mistaken. 824 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:08,680 It's only two. 825 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:09,680 Yeah. 826 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:16,680 Uh, so one of the things that I do is, uh, I gave them tools to delegate, say for example, 827 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,680 one Asian wants to make a plan on how to implement whatever. 828 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:20,680 Right. 829 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:27,680 Um, and it comes up with a plan, but it didn't, then it can delegate, uh, either the planning 830 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:33,680 or the implementation to four different nations at the same time with slightly like four different 831 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,680 type of like, whatever object or inter-programming and functional, whatever it might be. 832 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:38,680 Yeah. 833 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,680 And they all implement in like a disposable work tree. 834 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,680 They implement the thing all the way to the end, knowing that it's disposable code. 835 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:46,680 Yeah. 836 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:47,680 And they just compare notes. 837 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,680 Like how did it go in going this route? 838 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:50,680 How did it go? 839 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:51,680 Yeah. 840 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,680 Then you delete that and you only take the, the, the learnings. 841 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,680 And then from that you create an implementation plan. 842 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:57,680 Okay. 843 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:58,680 Okay. 844 00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,680 So they do it all the fucking time. 845 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,680 Like they try something, which is kind of how we work as well. 846 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:08,680 Like you build a prototype, you learn something, you delete it, you do it again, you learn something, 847 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,680 you delete it until you, okay, this is now we understand the problem. 848 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:13,680 Yeah. 849 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:14,680 In a much more nuanced way. 850 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,680 To me, that's also the point of like having, I don't know, like 10 different research teams 851 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,680 working on one thing and they all do it in a slightly different way. 852 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:23,680 And so on and so forth. 853 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,680 And then you can compare and then you, you'll understand something. 854 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,680 One thing I've noticed is that when you work on something hard, you don't really understand 855 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,680 it until you really try to work on the thing. 856 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:34,680 Oh, sure. 857 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,680 Like you can learn about Bitcoin all you want until you actually write a wallet or whatever 858 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:39,680 it might be. 859 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:40,680 Yeah. 860 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:41,680 You don't really understand it. 861 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:42,680 Yeah. 862 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:43,680 Yeah. 863 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:44,680 Yeah. 864 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,680 I know a guy who, he would call it the participatory knowing. 865 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,680 Can you, can you, you know who I'm thinking of? 866 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:50,680 No. 867 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:51,680 Can you tell me the name? 868 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:52,680 No. 869 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:53,680 I don't know. 870 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:54,680 I don't know. 871 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:55,680 I have no clue. 872 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:56,680 Oh, Birbik. 873 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:57,680 It gets always worse. 874 00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:58,680 It's one way street. 875 00:34:58,680 --> 00:34:59,680 Yeah. 876 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:00,680 He has seven legs, right? 877 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:01,680 It's still John Murebeki. 878 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:02,680 I'm not sure. 879 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:03,680 Maybe he grew some legs. 880 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:18,680 But yeah, no, that's obviously true. 881 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,680 I mean, for other things, for other things. 882 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,680 Um, and I talked about this in the past, like to, to really understand Bitcoin, for example, 883 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,680 you also really have to use it. 884 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:27,680 Yeah. 885 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,680 Like just put 12 words in your head and, and, and cross the border, you know, those kinds 886 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,680 of things and actually, like actually do all the things. 887 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,680 Actually lock yourself in a room. 888 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,680 There's no replacement for the on hand learning. 889 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,680 Otherwise, otherwise you won't get it. 890 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:45,680 All right. 891 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:46,680 I think we'll have to turn around here. 892 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,680 I just wanted to do one more ring around the Rosie just to not stop the conversation short. 893 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,680 But, um, and so what else is there to talk about on the next side? 894 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,680 Because we're gonna, we're gonna do a little break. 895 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,680 And in, uh, two or two and a half hours from now, I'm gonna talk about, uh, I'm gonna ask 896 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,680 you about all the other projects. 897 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:06,680 Okay. 898 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,680 But let's, let's bring, let's try to bring the 10X to close in the next like 10 minutes 899 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:10,680 or so. 900 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,680 So, so what's the, what's the state now? 901 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,680 What's something that you're still unhappy with? 902 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,680 And what do I need to do to, to run it myself? 903 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,680 Uh, right now I'm running it on, uh, on, on iPhone. 904 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,680 It's like the most advanced application. 905 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,680 So buy an iPhone. 906 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:28,680 No. 907 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,680 No, I, I also have like, uh, it also compiles into, into Mac. 908 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,680 Uh, like a Mac OS proper. 909 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:36,680 All right. 910 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,680 It's a different client. 911 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,680 Um, I run Nostor on, on, on, on, on Mac. 912 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,680 I don't have an iPhone, but, but, uh, Nostor is a great client. 913 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:45,680 Nostor is a great client. 914 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,680 It's my, it's my go-to desktop client. 915 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,680 I, I, I, I compared, I compared the code base of, um, how Nostor implements Nostor with 916 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:53,680 the... 917 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,680 Terrible names though, by the way. 918 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,680 Nostor with a U, you know, it's like, it's just like moon with two years. 919 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,680 And it's all those terrible names. 920 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:02,680 But anyway, great client. 921 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,680 Well, the naming, the name, the naming podcast is a different podcast. 922 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:06,680 Oh yeah. 923 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:07,680 That's true. 924 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:08,680 That's true. 925 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:09,680 Yeah. 926 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,680 All the venture capitalists, they really care about names. 927 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,680 All the, all the program is actually done. 928 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,680 It's just like, you know, Claude Opus, make up a name. 929 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:18,680 Just whatever, put a U. 930 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:19,680 Yeah. 931 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:20,680 Put a U, put two U's. 932 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:21,680 You might as well. 933 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,680 Someone should, we should fork it and make Nostor with two U's. 934 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,680 Just for nostalgic reasons. 935 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,680 The more premium version. 936 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:30,680 Exactly. 937 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:31,680 Put a paywall on something. 938 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:32,680 Put a shitcoin in. 939 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:33,680 Exactly. 940 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,680 Now it's Solana. 941 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:36,680 Great. 942 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,680 So, okay. 943 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,680 So I can actually install this on macOS. 944 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:45,680 Yeah. 945 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,680 On macOS, I compile a binary that it's like, you can download just the binary or compile it 946 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:51,680 locally, whatever. 947 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,680 And in terms of, of setup, I just, I would need to give it, um... 948 00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:02,680 A laptop, YOLO mode, just, just say here, do your thing. 949 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,680 Does it, does it support open router, all those kinds of things? 950 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:07,680 Yeah. 951 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:08,680 It supports open router. 952 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:09,680 It supports, uh... 953 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:10,680 Routester, PPQ as well? 954 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:11,680 Yeah. 955 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,680 Everything that, all those are JustGPT APIs. 956 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,680 So yeah, it supports Olama. 957 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:16,680 Same thing with Olama. 958 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:17,680 It's just a JustGPT. 959 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,680 Yeah. 960 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:19,680 Um, so... 961 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,680 Can you run it on just local models as well? 962 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:22,680 You can run it on just local models. 963 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:23,680 I don't know. 964 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,680 I've never tried with, uh, like the coding with local models. 965 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:27,680 Yeah. 966 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,680 Unless like, if you have a very beefy GPU, you probably can do it. 967 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,680 I don't have that kind of, that kind of hardware. 968 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,680 Yeah, you spend all your money on an iPhone. 969 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:36,680 Like, I understand. 970 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,680 No more money left for the GPUs. 971 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,680 No, but it's interesting. 972 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,680 So I bought, um, I was in San Francisco like a month ago. 973 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:51,680 So I bought the new iPhone, which has, um, the Apple intelligence running locally. 974 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:57,680 So it's cool because I, I can get it to like summarize the work that has been done in the day locally. 975 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,680 And it can give me like a report of what happened. 976 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,680 And then I have like the voice thing. 977 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,680 So all the stuff that the 10X agents did. 978 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:05,680 Yeah. 979 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,680 It gives you like a report basically. 980 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:08,680 Yeah. 981 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:09,680 Yeah. 982 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:15,680 So the, the, um, the Asians have like, um, like a scheduling tool where it's cron basically, 983 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,680 where they can schedule, for example, every five minutes or every once a day or once a week, 984 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,680 and they can go and fetch all the conversations, all the, all the, all the threats. 985 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:30,680 And they can send you like a weekly report of what was done across all the projects, 986 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,680 because they also have a tool that allows them to see all the projects that the same person owns. 987 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,680 And they can communicate across project boundaries. 988 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:44,680 So you can have one agent that goes to every PM across all the projects and says, what happened this week? 989 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:45,680 Okay. 990 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:46,680 And then get us, get a summary. 991 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:47,680 Yeah. 992 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,680 You, you, you re, you rebuild like a, a Google like company. 993 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:52,680 Yeah. 994 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:53,680 Congratulations. 995 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,680 And then, and then I'm going to build a DAO on top. 996 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,680 Is data, is data availability, uh, ever an issue? 997 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,680 Do you, do you run your own? 998 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:02,680 It's just a relay. 999 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:03,680 Yeah. 1000 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,680 I mean, it's, it's, it's what, like a hundred megabytes. 1001 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,680 I mean, it's just, you know, it's not, no, no, no, no. 1002 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,680 It's not, the agents are not spamming events like crazy. 1003 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,680 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 1004 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:15,680 Okay. 1005 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,680 I mean, they produce the, like all the, um, they stream events. 1006 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,680 Um, but those are ephemeral events. 1007 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:22,680 Yeah. 1008 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,680 Uh, but it's, it's, it's a non-issue. 1009 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:25,680 Yeah. 1010 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:26,680 Yeah. 1011 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:27,680 I see. 1012 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:28,680 I see. 1013 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:29,680 Cool. 1014 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:30,680 No, what I like most about these ideas is like, I noticed it myself. 1015 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,680 I wanted to actually write about it, but it's way easier to speak about it. 1016 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:39,680 Is that, um, my development workflow changed. 1017 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,680 Like it's to say that it changed would be unfair because it changed so much. 1018 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,680 It's kind of indistinguishable too. 1019 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,680 It's a different, it's a different thing that I do now. 1020 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,680 Like I, I used to be a developer a very long time ago. 1021 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,680 And now I, I, I do something else. 1022 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:57,680 I, I basically speak to computers, but I really like it because again, like as a, uh, you 1023 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,680 know, like a big fan of John Mimbeki, I really think that no one knows. 1024 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:03,680 No one knows. 1025 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:04,680 The issue is you can't pronounce the name. 1026 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,680 That's kind of, he would be so big. 1027 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,680 Like everyone would know if, if people would only be able to pronounce his name. 1028 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:12,680 See, naming. 1029 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:13,680 Naming is the issue. 1030 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:14,680 The VC podcast is right. 1031 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,680 He's clearly not a venture capitalist guy. 1032 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:26,680 But, but anyway, like he, he, he says that most of our, like, uh, basically you need dialogue 1033 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:27,680 to solve the really hard problems. 1034 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:35,680 And on my whole, every time now I'm trying to, um, build something new or fix something 1035 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,680 and so on, I immediately enter into a dialogue with the LL. 1036 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:39,680 Yeah. 1037 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:40,680 Like what is something that we can do? 1038 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:41,680 And, and all those kinds of things. 1039 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:42,680 Oh my Lord. 1040 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:43,680 What? 1041 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:44,680 That's bad. 1042 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,680 It's fully booked out. 1043 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:47,680 Is that true? 1044 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,680 Oh, that's really bad. 1045 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,680 Well, then we'll have to do something else. 1046 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:52,680 I guess. 1047 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,680 Wow. 1048 00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:58,680 Damn. 1049 00:41:58,680 --> 00:41:59,680 We'll see. 1050 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:00,680 We'll see. 1051 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:01,680 We'll see. 1052 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:06,680 I'll, I'll, I'll, um, we'll just do a, because maybe that's just for the, for the bath 1053 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,680 and not for, for, for, for the song, but we'll see. 1054 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:14,680 But anyway, I, I really, I really think that's kind of a, a very different approach. 1055 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:19,680 Like you immediately enter into a conversation and you meet, you kind of lead with questions 1056 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,680 and you kind of have this massive back and forth. 1057 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:28,680 And, um, I think most people that have a really bad experience with LLMs, they are that set 1058 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,680 on doing a thing in a certain way and they can't budge from it. 1059 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,680 And then the thing won't do it in the way you want it to do it. 1060 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,680 And then it's like, there's just conflict all the time. 1061 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,680 It will never do it in, in the way you thought it should be done. 1062 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:40,680 Yeah. 1063 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,680 But one, one of the things that I'm finding is that a lot of times it comes up with a 1064 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,680 very decent, elegant solution that I really didn't think of. 1065 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:48,680 Exactly. 1066 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:49,680 I didn't come up with that idea. 1067 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:50,680 Yeah. 1068 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,680 And that gets the job done and it's like, you know, good enough for this thing and so on. 1069 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:54,680 And that's it. 1070 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,680 And then you can also iterate from there and so on. 1071 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:02,680 But, um, yeah, I, I think that's kind of the new paradigm is that it's all of it is 1072 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,680 like conversational and dialogical and so on. 1073 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,680 Also search in some sense, you know, like not only, not only development, not only coding 1074 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,680 and so on and all those kinds of things, but every, every LLM driven process is like this. 1075 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:14,680 Yeah, absolutely. 1076 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:21,680 I think I, I said this before to, to you at some point that to me, what kind of sent me 1077 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:29,680 down this route is that during cyber engineering, uh, or, um, I, I heard so many people saying, 1078 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:36,680 Oh yeah, this is kind of useful, but it's so good that I'm a developer and I can steer it in the right direction. 1079 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:37,680 And I know what it's doing. 1080 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:45,680 And I thought, what if it's like Bitcoin and an economist where you knowing about the field is not helpful. 1081 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:46,680 It's hindering you. 1082 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,680 You're getting in your own way. 1083 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:49,680 Hmm. 1084 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,680 What if all I know of development is actually problematic? 1085 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:54,680 Hmm. 1086 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:55,680 What if I just let fucking go? 1087 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:56,680 Yeah. 1088 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,680 And then, and then I can start integrating the things, you know, but start with the supposition 1089 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,680 that no, actually you need to learn from scratch. 1090 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:03,680 Yeah. 1091 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:04,680 Yeah. 1092 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,680 I think it's interesting now, especially in the Nostra side, there's lots of just non developer 1093 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:14,680 people that thanks to Shakespeare and other things, um, really got into my coding and to 1094 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:15,680 produce really cool stuff. 1095 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,680 And it's very different. 1096 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:18,680 Like they're obviously not developers. 1097 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,680 They, they, they, they're not going to read a single line of code and they're not going 1098 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,680 to care and all those kinds of things. 1099 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,680 And that's perfectly fine, but they still, I read one post where it was like, it's, um, 1100 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:35,680 the person described of, of getting into a flow state while developing the app. 1101 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:40,680 And, um, it happened to me a couple of times as well, where you're just like, so in the 1102 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:49,680 zone of trying to make this thing kind of shape this thing, how you envisioned it in some sense. 1103 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:55,680 And, and like you, you make micro adjustments every like five seconds and it's, it's almost 1104 00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:01,680 like sculpting, you know, like sculpting the thing out of a block of marble. 1105 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,680 And, and that, that can be really, yeah, that can be really satisfying. 1106 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,680 But, but that's exactly the thing. 1107 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,680 It doesn't have anything to do with development. 1108 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:11,680 It's a totally different thing. 1109 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,680 It's a totally different thing, but knowing when to stop, knowing in which direction to 1110 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:17,680 take it, that is the art. 1111 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,680 Like that is still the thing that you are bringing in as a human, right? 1112 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:27,680 Like, like that is the crafting of the taste, the, the, the, the knowing what is like, something 1113 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:28,680 is wrong or something is right. 1114 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:29,680 Yeah. 1115 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:35,680 The taste part is so great because I, I still listen to the, to the San Francisco AI people 1116 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:36,680 sometimes and so on. 1117 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:41,680 And like every single conversation brings up research taste like 50 times. 1118 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:43,680 It's like, ah, okay. 1119 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:44,680 Well, yeah. 1120 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:45,680 Okay. 1121 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:47,680 Do LLMs have research tastes? 1122 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:48,680 I'm not so sure. 1123 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:53,680 You know, like, no, it's just about which, which research research team has the best research 1124 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:54,680 taste. 1125 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:55,680 It's really fun. 1126 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:56,680 All right. 1127 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:57,680 Let's try our luck. 1128 00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:58,680 Let's bring it to a close here. 1129 00:45:58,680 --> 00:45:59,680 All right. 1130 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:00,680 And we'll see, we'll see what happens. 1131 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,680 If it actually recorded, you mean? 1132 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:03,680 Yeah, that too. 1133 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:04,680 That too. 1134 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:05,680 Oh man. 1135 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,680 But that was a solid 45 minutes and I'll pick your brain some more later today.