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there we go now we're now we're good a little snap i'll just hand you this i don't know i'm

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just gonna clip it so i don't have to hold it but yeah no walking today so it's gonna be an

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outside sitting and yeah what happened what ended your walking career i i i built my whole

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professional life around walking and i broke my ankle a couple days ago basically so

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no uh change of plans i rock pulled myself walking is still very good for you and healthy but let's

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see if we can get the brain juices flowing even if we're sitting

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so what should we talk about nostr you have an awesome nostr t-shirt by the way oh thank you

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this is the lightning store the no effects ripoff are we just being nostalgic about the old internet

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yeah i've been thinking about that yes i think no i think what we're nostalgic for

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is what we thought where we thought the internet was going what we thought we had yeah what we

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thought we had i've been i've been trying to trace my interest in technology and i used to read the

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tech magazines back the day and i just had this sense of of where things were going and it was

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it was it was very optimistic and uh i was very excited about it i loved desktop uis and things

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like that it's like where did i get all this love for all these things that now are kind of frustrating

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in for me and it's like well i think they just stopped delivering on those promises like when

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you had a good mac os 9 desktop ui you had this whole interface that was very in harmony

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and a similar ui kind of for everything a similar use aesthetic even microsoft outlook on mac os 9

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looked like a mac os 9 out everything drag and dropped onto each other yeah and then we built

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the web browser which is kind of really it's an operating system inside of an operating system

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and everything looks like a like a billboard ad on the side of the road yeah and everything behaves

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kind of differently and then the business model is really for things to not talk to each other

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maybe if you're lucky you can pay to unlock communication across your internet apps

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and and so people who fell in love with the computers when they were this kind of you know

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unified personal thing i think at least for me find you know the current state of things kind of

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kind of frustrating do you think we have a chance of building our way out of the digital gulags

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i think yes i think more than ever i think we just have to we actually just have to build it

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i do think there's it's a mindset shift of uh this is done for me versus it turns out i kind of have

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to do this for myself you know i i've hit this flip with my friends recently where all the best meals i

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have are cooked by my friends like i have several friends who can do a better ribeye than the best

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steakhouse i've been to in austin texas yeah so you know we need to become yeah we need to make

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home-cooked meals of apps out of love for one another and that's i think how we can get better

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software we we landed on this already in in one of those conversations where it's like the the whole

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web switched from an active thing that you have to explore actively and you have to put some work in

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but depending on what kind of work you put in you'll get you'll you'll get results like you'll

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get something out of it and the more work you would put in the more you would get out of it and so on

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to it's completely being flipped now with just like passive stuff with with tiktok being the epitome of

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passivity where it's just like please entertain me you know like put like you're not you don't even

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want to think for yourself anymore it's just like please do everything including the thinking for me

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and just entertain me and it's just like passively scrolling through things and you know feeding the

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slot machines for the next dopamine hit and so on so so it's it's in part like what i enjoy so much

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about nostr is because it's so raw still and still so it requires active involvement um and the same for

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bitcoin as well i mean it's it's like to to actually use bitcoin in a self-serving way you you actually

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actually need to be actively involved and but that also means that you can actively shoot yourself

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in the foot and i think this this i think that's that's something that out of necessity has to be

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true going forward as well it's like you you if you want to empower users like it's there's always the

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same comparisons right like the the if you have a sharp kitchen knife you can cut yourself you can

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stab someone else yes if you if you want to if you teach someone to to defend themselves if you give

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if you teach someone how to use a gun they can harm themselves very easily as well and i think i think

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that's that's kind of what we're up against like but then when you get like a like a knife at a

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restaurant that's like somehow made out of cardboard it folds on the first slice it's like oh i've been

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saved from myself and from harming others but also i can't slice the steak anymore so personally i think

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like paper straws are a great indication of the downfall of western civilization well they're illegal

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now good good good sorry that you still have to suffer under this yeah no but that's it's it's it's

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what i'm trying to say i think is like it's unavoidable if you want to have a powerful tool it's also

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going to be a dangerous tool and you need to learn how to wield it and i think if we if we want to

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build the next iteration of the internet with the next kind of tool sets and so on you need to

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you we need to be okay with people getting wrecked and doing kind of dangerous borderline dangerous

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stuff i feel like the last time society was okay with this was with the car like i feel like if

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somebody introduced the car today it would be completely illegal yeah you can kill people yeah you

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need you need like you need like like a five-year car like a pilot's license basically to drive you

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around yeah because otherwise it's just it's much too dangerous yeah yeah that's a good point i think

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i i hope when that we can kind of you know again like build our way out of it because i think also if

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the if the if the tools exist and are accessible then they will be picked up by those that are brave enough

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to explore the new world yeah yeah bravery and also you know it's personal responsibility i i talk

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about this i do the austin bitcoin design club in austin with with saw hill and um every time i like

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introduce the meetup it's just like bitcoin is something we do it's on us so you know if you're on a

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shit coin a vc is paid for nice ux if you want nice ux and bitcoin you could take responsibility

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on yourself to either make it yourself or just give really good feedback to the people who are building

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and so you know i think nostr you're very much more obviously yeah it's like it's the nostr will

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only be what diehards you know build it to be but i think this will also like already nostr clients

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are way better than they used to be oh wow we're getting rock pulled all the time now it really

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starts to rain we'll have to a canopy somewhere hop hop in somewhere should we should we slowly make

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our way to somewhere where we won't get completely wet so is that a hospital we can get we can go up

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there you could use a it's a it's a hospice or maybe we'll find a tree that that holds the water

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better we'll see we'll figure it out the analogy i always use is uh somebody could give you a really

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good exercise program they could even drive you to the gym but if you don't do the the lat pulldowns

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using your own muscles you're not gonna you're not gonna gain strength so if the problem was that

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somebody else is making the apps for you and they had bad a bad teleology they had bad ends in mind for

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you uh it's not gonna be fixed necessarily by somebody else oh boy no that's really bad

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where do you want to go i don't know is there can we sit just back at the restaurant

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give me a second to think about it

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oh wait wait under there under there there is a

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i might have to stand

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there we go that's better already there was like a 10 second shower

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you and pablo haven't been rained out yet

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nope not yet

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i feel like it's been raining like

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awesome it's the first

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yeah let's go there let's just stand there yeah out there that's good okay

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yeah i mean i keep bringing it back to responsibility a lot as well

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in i mean freedom requires responsibility in the sense that no one can

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completely handhold you through being free like that's the

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the the other side of the freedom coin is responsibility itself

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so oh that really hurt oh my lord

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all right we're gonna make it

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let's stay here for a little while

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but yeah you were saying that you have to do the workout yourself and i i always i always break it down to the essentials it's like i mean

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again we landed on all those memes in the bitcoin world with

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not your keys not your coins which means if you're not in control of the private keys

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it's actually not your money and if push comes to shove

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then you'll feel that like someone else will take your money period

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right and i feel like you can get a lot of the upside

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of bitcoin like sailor right you can get a lot of the upside of bitcoin

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without holding your own keys yeah

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it works until it doesn't but it works still doesn't and also to get

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the whole upside you have to take personal responsibility

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and i think on the nostril side for example it relates a lot to

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to kind of expressiveness in some sense

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where it's like if you want to it's i always try to compare it to

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i mean in in my mind we're talking about

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freedom of speech and freedom of assembly and those kind of things the freedoms that we cherish

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in meat space um where actually in meat space you you can prevent someone

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like just by using sheer force to go somewhere somewhere like you can lock someone in a box and

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so on or you can you know like uh shoot a grenade at an existing assembly and so on and so so the

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freedom has to be granted politically in some sense like if there is a political structure if there

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is other people around they can mess with your freedom of assembly in meat space they can also mess

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with your freedom of speech and those kind of things yeah i never loved the public square analogy like

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that does not seem like this perfect i used to live near union square and there would always be these

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random protests and people giving speeches and stuff like that that was not the that's not the ideal of

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human speech oh i agree i agree i agree but but it's it's the way i see it with um like now moving to

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cyberspace it's cash in meat space cash gives you freedom of transactions in in that sense and it is

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absolutely necessary for a society to work like you if you would need to know everything about absolutely

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everyone you make economic transactions with then the society can scale like i'm convinced that society

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without cash can scale meaningfully basically you need just like you need free speech to figure things

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out and to figure out how to course correct society you need the free flow of money to to figure

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certain things out and so on and um to actually have meaningful price signals emerge and and so on

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and so forth like it's it plays a big part in distributed cognition in in cyberspace up until very recently i feel

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like we had no way of guaranteeing those freedoms like you you uh in in the sense of like we had no

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cash in cyberspace pre-bitcoin it just didn't exist at all and and in terms of freedom of assembly i i

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think we we were able to do certain things now it's just i feel like it's it's it's it's going to be

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easier and it's going to be more streamlined going forward where you just want to you know like even

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temporarily open up a speaker's corner and invite people in uh and have something to say then you can't

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just do that and it's not politically but cryptographically enforced i do think we lost

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something the early internet people made their own websites and so there was like obviously there

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weren't that many of them maybe in the millions but people were self-expressing to like a certain

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extent and understand they were the publisher and then these platforms came along that did so much of

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the work for you and even people like myself i probably published a lot more on twitter than

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on my personal website i still even know how to make a personal website so i feel like we we actually

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never lost the ability to self-publish now the the net the distribution and the network effects of

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these social networks that's something we didn't have early on but at least the ability to self-publish we

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really never lost we just were too lazy to keep at it or the i guess the rewards were somewhat minimal

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yeah yeah yeah i guess the cost benefits didn't make sense you self-published yeah right yeah your

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your your blog posts your when you counted to the number 21 right yeah you self-published and you found

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distribution for that yeah but my main distribution channel was twitter i guess like i i don't think

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anyone would have stumbled upon my stuff without already an existing twitter kind of space and by

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that i don't mean twitter spaces i mean just uh

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i had something that i could plug in to and it was just the existing bitcoin twitter community which i was

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like deeply embedded in and i i had a very very small following in the beginning like when i was

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even like when i started writing already but there was still like i immediately had a couple hundred

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people that would read whatever anyone writes about bitcoin period because that's like back in the day

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that was like maybe you know like no one wrote about bitcoin basically and so i i think i think that's

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what the early internet there in my mind the early internet lacked it it it desperately lacked identity

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and they lacked distribution and i think that's what you get now for free and i hope that we can

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take all the good parts of the old internet so to speak and revive them in in in some sense of

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re-explore them i think it's still very under explored and it relates to to the expression that i i

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wanted to bring up it's like your your self-expression online is so limited in some sense because you are

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currently bound to all the platforms and it's just like you know like it has to be exactly this form

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every every fucking page looks the same and so there's very few exceptions there's very few

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platforms that allow any kind of meaningful personalization and those kind of things and so

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i i i mean i kind of i hope that we can bring some of that back i still you know remember the days of

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geocities and myspace and winem skins that's that's kind of the examples i always bring up because it

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was just fucking cool to to have like it's yeah and i wonder how much we if if people have the tools right

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now like it's always going to be a small percentage that are the creators like anybody can upload to

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youtube how many people actually upload to youtube it's it's definitely going to be a small percentage

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but the you you see a lot more creativity on youtube than you saw on the broad broadcast television yeah

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yeah that's fair yeah i mean that's uh the the medium is very unconstrained in that sense you're not

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bound to like 10 minutes outbites that the the uh the the actual transmission bandwidth so to speak

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is not scarce anymore it's like you can you can upload like 20 hour long youtube videos every single

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day and and if no one watches them no one watches them the the thing that's cars nowadays of course is

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attention so so distribution and attention which is kind of you know like uh uh has its own problems

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i mean i i worry about that with

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no i go on x a lot for design inspo and to see other uh like technical people like what are people

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what are people vibe coding today what are people um what are solo entrepreneurs like making 50k a month

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with that i could have done and just in a weekend but they did it instead and so i i there's a lot

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there's a lot there and i feel like a lot of times i spend a lot of my time on the internet gathering

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and i'm even i try to make better tools for i mostly use obsidian to store knowledge that i think i'm

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going to use later but i'm mostly just storing yeah and i really that attention thing like i'm really i

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almost want to like and i'm always prompting ai's i also want to like prompt myself when i log into the

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computer yeah like what are you going to try to get done because you're like i'm sitting down you know

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so like it's bad for my body and you know i'm like i'm getting all this blue light you know i'm taking on

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a lot of risks health wise and mental health wise to be at a computer so what am i going to try to get out of

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it uh i almost i almost kind of wish i had like a in info calories like you've consumed 3000 info

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calories so you should write an essay you need to burn off these info calories like build something

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write something be creative i mean a lot of people like me who like to create these personal knowledge

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systems it's just end up with just the personal it's just like it's just it's just end up with all

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this data and they're not using it for anything uh so i think ultimately yeah wait ultimately i want

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you're talking about that kind of brain off thing like there's there's this ux design book called don't

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make me think so it's very much the ux

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uh so i'm always wary when people say bitcoin needs better ux because what do you mean by that

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because the normie ux developer has a business model in mind so they have it ends in mind they

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know what they want the users of their app to be doing yeah so they have a plan for you

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do you have what is your plan yeah and are you using maybe maybe that's kind of part of the problem

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right like the whole don't make me think design philosophy and the whole principle you know maybe

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we want to build things that actually makes people think yeah yeah i've been thinking about this in

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terms of you know one of the problems we had with mutiny was we made a pretty easy ux like your first

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receive yeah would actually open a lightning channel yeah we just kind of call it fees network

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fees or something like that right well a lightning channel can close and that can cost you money too

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yeah and so we made it so easy to end up with a lightning channel that a lot of people ended up

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with lightning channels that didn't know what that was yeah so they didn't know what they had signed up

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for um and i'm sure obviously i'm sure there's a million examples in the normie world of like we've

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done things that we didn't really know the implications of you know people are always

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scandalized finding out what their personal data is used for so yeah that i i'm kind of thinking even

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in terms of bitcoin ux like i think the next if i made something like mutiny again i would want to make

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the part where you end up with a lightning channel if i decide that that's what you want

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i decide to offer that as an option i'd want to make that weird like jarring somehow so that you

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don't flow through it you know we we there are a lot of ux patterns that we're used to like if i keep

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on pushing the button on the bottom right of the screen and it's not red i think it'll let me go on

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with my day yeah and and so yeah i i want to like think more about like user interfaces that that um

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jar people because they uh i think this is something that they should be mindful

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during i think games some games are great at that where you just like you you uh especially some of

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the older games where like it's actually mistakes are actually costly and you actually die and you have to

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start from scratch again and replay the last 20 minutes right those kind of things where where

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mistakes are actually costly you know that'd be great yeah like uh you know what's what's the one

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you know you're scrolling or eula and it makes you scroll all the way to the bottom before you can

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click the okay button you like time how fast they scroll and if they scroll faster than humans can read

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you take them back to the total start of the flow just like you you lost the life better not mess up

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yeah forcing the user to be careful i mean again like all this is yeah me kind of trying to decide

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what the user should accomplish and how the user should be i think ultimately the goal for software

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i mean you know the early you know some of the earliest software distribution is is you'd print a

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magazine that had a basic program in it and be like one or two pages and so a kid would sit there

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and patiently type in a program and now they would have some very minimal game and then they could just

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start modifying it and that's you know i listened to like software developer podcasts and that's

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very common either they were like hacking their uh texas instrument calculator or they were like you

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yeah writing like basic um you know at least the old timers and so the idea that you that was like

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what personal computing was originally there was very little distributed software this was a platform

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for you to write programs into and i i if i think i think ai could really um potentially unlock that for

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people where if you sat down at the computer and you knew what you wanted to do you actually thought

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about what am i trying to accomplish you might be able to prompt an ai to build that tool for you to

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do exactly what you wanted and so now you define the teleology you define the purpose of this tool and so

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you can keep it aligned to what you want and you can't it's very hard to rug pull you wrote it yourself

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you have the code right there you're running it on your own data and it's a total reversal of how

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most of us use computers right now but i think we're like weirdly incredibly close to that being

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yeah i agree i mean i you you showed me just last week like how far along all the vibe coding stuff

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is and and i i really feel like putting cursor ai into autopilot really changed my mind on a lot of

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those things because i was actually able to produce something meaning meaningful in like 20 minutes

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and something that i you know always wanted to have built for the last 10 months or so and no one ever

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sat down and built it and now i can just prompt it myself like into existence but i think it's you you

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you actually have to know the hard part now it seems to me is to actually figure out what you want

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yeah and also kind of collectively speaking so so to speak it's like what do we actually want

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as a like how should the next iteration of the internet look like what what do we want to get out

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of nostr how should you know the bitcoin wallets of the future actually operate and look like like how

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easy should things be how and again like to to towards the the the kind of uh the reason why

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we're standing here and talking to each other is like there are no perfect solutions so you have to

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find the right trade-offs you have to be okay with people shooting themselves in the foot for example

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it's like either you babysit people like almost completely or they are powerful enough

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to shoot themselves in the foot and also like shoot others in the foot potentially like

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depending on what we're talking about no but it's an unsolvable problem it's like with with like for

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example um the it came up today with like policing content on nostr and those kind of things and it's

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like where do you draw the line who can do the policing and what is kind of okay content and what

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isn't it it it largely depends on your worldview what is okay and what isn't and also where do you

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where do you draw the line when it comes to policing like do you police all text content all image content

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all video content all audio content do you police do you police the namespace itself you know i mean

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there's plenty of offensive twitter handles for example right which i mean you've been talking uh i

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listened to this podcast uh and you've been talking a lot about like there is no global

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but that's even there is no global is kind of a a globalist it's an absolutist it's an absolutist

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it's well it's like um i mean think about that policing like i i think i find nostr is the best i want

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to start using nostr for instance for like personal knowledge management tools right yeah so that's

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obviously something i'm very interested in i could spin up a relay i could start blasting events to it

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storing things that i find interesting storing my notes on there i have a blossom server store my memes

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and media and things like that on there that's solving something for me and it's not i'm not i'm not

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me and by not intending it to be global it can be global enough for me it can i can make it highly

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available yeah yeah yeah no but that's not what we mean i know it's but like i think something's

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there's something similar when you start to try to start thinking about like content policing very

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subjectively oh my god it it doesn't uh it doesn't only solve the problem for you it solves the problem

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for you and future you and that's a big that's a big thing because you're actually like everyone who

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ever wrote code knows like you're not one person you're two people you're there's you and there's like

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the guy who wrote the code two weeks ago and you have no idea what you did and how it works and

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like and good luck figuring it out it's a different guy and so that's what i what i like i i jumped

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through like 15 different kind of note-taking and knowledge systems already and the the they they

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all worked for me at the time but they never worked for future me and and the reason why i like

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nostril so much is because it is is future proof just like bitcoin is future proof i know bitcoin will

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be there for me period right like it will be there for future me and so so by building that in a in a

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like local first way that it it works for you on your local relay for your machine but that also means

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it works for your machines and for like whatever will come next like you'll be able to export the

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data and you'll be able to have it interoperable and those kind of things right like one of the things

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that nostril as it just the network explores the possibility space has iterated on amazingly is

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the relay technology so yeah it's more efficient people are making these relays to handle you know

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thousands of users with millions of notes and so i love i always love that in technology when i could

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take a something off the shelf that has just been hardened by incredible amounts of like sqlite

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it's just been hardened by abuse over the years and i could just use it in the happiest of happy

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paths for a solo user i love i love how i i think that's another reason why i'm bullish on this like

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solo prompted software for solo use is that you your software doesn't have to be nearly as complex when

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it's trying to serve i would say very specific use i i wouldn't say that's necessarily necessarily so

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let's try to sit down again because my my my foot is swelling and i there's only so much pain i can

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take it's like you know i i i only run one lightning no it's not like three anymore because there's only

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so much pain i can take no but i think we'll have this the way i see it evolving now i mean again like

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we have the you know kitchen sink uh nostril clients like amethyst that try to do everything and

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it's on it that's perfectly fine as well like don't get me wrong i'm a fan but i i still think

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we'll have very specialized tools just like in a unix world where like there's one tool and it has

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existed for like 25 years and it does one thing and it does it better than any other tool and so you

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just use that i i do that already on the nostril site for example to update my metadata and so on

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um i'll go to metadata to the metadata client then i just set all the fields and do all the things

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i don't use a regular client i love that yeah yeah the smaller and paulo was talking about this

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sec you know when we think of nostril uh proposals when the more atomic they are you know the much

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more tractable and in in the more uh composable they end up being i know you're a big like files maxi

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yeah so i think of like the files abstraction has lasted so long i i think it you know in some

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sense it underserves the modern world kids these days don't know what files are anymore no no they

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don't the tick tock generation has no idea but but like meanwhile like every you know the web is all

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about apis um and so you have bespoke weird data formats or probably several per company and then you

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communicate if you're lucky you get to communicate with it with an api and so the yeah i'm so hopeful

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that in nostril can slowly just be like a bit of a type system like here is a standardized way

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um to publish something there's so so so much upside to that and it's a chicken and egg thing

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like you know a lot more people will find nostril useful if there's a lot of stuff on it and a lot

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more you know there'll be a lot more stuff on it if a lot of people are using it but i'm i'm very

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i i you know i'm old enough that i've been through like several cycles with you know i've i've been

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rug pulled by multiple note-taking solutions uh like you know amazon just shut off the ability or

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i think they're going to the shut off the ability to download the uh file version of a oh the cable

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so you can't jailbreak yeah uh you can't strip the drm yeah you can't you can't use the thing that

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you theoretically possess as you wish to use it that's that's what it means and i uh there's a

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i have readwise yeah which can amazon doesn't make an api for my book highlights

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so but readwise has a browser extension and it loads up a website on amazon that is a list of my

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highlights it scrapes them and turns them into a their own version of highlights a version of

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highlights and then i can access the api so i feel like i'm like exfiltrate i feel like i'm like a

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super hacker trying to get out my own data and i just painstakingly generated over years and years

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and years and years that's kind of that's why i mentioned the digital gulags you know like you

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are oh yes you're you're total an iphone user i'm i mean so many nested digital gulags

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gulag within gulags the russian nested dolls of gulags you're in the center yeah it's weird

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readwise is great by the way in in the the way it it's it's a really good reader it's a really

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good reader app like it does highlights really well uh hint hint pablo fix highlighter and it it

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does the text to speech really well and it does also does this cool something i wanted to make

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myself is like a spaced repetition for my highlights yeah oh i want again talking about how do i actually

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make value out of all these things i'm collecting you know it also it integrates nicely with with uh it

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it has auto summarization and this ghost reader the like gpt system that you can

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ask questions on your stuff and also on the stuff you read and so but as great as all that is that

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should have been like two prompts probably two different apps that i prompted yeah that should

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have been you know if i had my highlights as my own notes i can make the space repetition

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yeah like a prompt and yeah that's uh so like i'm like i and i feel like i just rolled the dice

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and i happen to end up with readwise yeah yeah i'm lucky that somebody did it right yeah and they

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have an api i'm lucky but for most things in my life i i don't i don't i'm there i'm getting snake

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eyes but but they still have the same problem like everyone else because they are in charge they have

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to host all the data they need to be in business they can go out of business and if they go out of

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business everything is gone it does and so that's it's just that i can't it's not it's not tenable

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especially the older i get yeah more of these cycles i've been through yeah the more more times

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i've been rugged by the exactly exactly exactly it's like the the rug pulls must continue until

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morale improves yeah but that's why i always bring up the you know crazy computer science professors that

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have the same static html page for the last 35 years that runs on a toaster somewhere because they they

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it's like one html file it's self-contained it never goes down you can put it somewhere else and

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it's it's there again like they know what they're doing uh like just by by experience and understanding

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this stuff and and so on and and i feel like the that that's why i became a file maxi like my whole

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compute setup is built around the file systems and i just synchronize everything using sync thing

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and like my books and my audio books and my music and absolutely everything like my my downloads my memes

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my photos everything is synced with my swarm and i just have certain folders that are the root folders

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for for like whatever like my my audio books that are and and i always have i have like a three-tiered

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system i have the deep big archive that holds everything that's like terabytes of raid servers

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and so on i have the working memory so to speak that's large enough to be on laptops and good phones and

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then i have like the you know just mobile like where i drag and i'll drag and drop in like three

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audio books that i'm gonna listen to for the next month or whatever and or the books i just want to

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read that i have like the mobile folders and everything is set up that way it works beautifully because the

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files are actually self-contained and i i try to use apps that um basically like my my audio book app

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for example the audio book player that i use it will store every single note and bookmark that i

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make in in separate files and it will have a position file like position dot that which means

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like there's gonna be no conflict between the things and it just updates across the swarm and if

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i use a different phone to continue to listen to the audiobook it's just everything is already there

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it's very nostr style yeah would you do you even need to nostrify what would the upside be if this

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was on nostr so what i would love to have is plug nostr into existing things like that already especially

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for uh app configuration and those kind of things when i get a new phone i have to set up most of the

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things from scratch i just want to log log in with my nostr identity basically and then it knows what to

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do that's kind of it would be the best case i mean we we have this across you know like again like

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if you if you're in the apple ecosystem you get a new iphone you log in and it's the same as the

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old iphone just upgraded hardware if you're if you use a modern browser like you usually use browser

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sync and so on and so all your extensions are synchronized all your bookmarks are synchronized

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all those kind of things and and those are but those are all like they're their own siloed systems

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and and and that's i think where where nostr can be very beneficial where it's like you can do the

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same thing but in a non-siloed way i guess that's kind of how i feel with the the files a little bit

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like they they somehow end up like i want to like kind of link things up a bit somehow make these cross

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references between things like you know the audio book highlight i want that to be highlighted in the

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kindle version and vice versa you know or i'd like to be able to make notes that like reference a

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specific scene in a movie i feel like there's a lot of i feel like there's a lot of things that we

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would have as personal knowledge tools if all of our things weren't built so siloed and drm'd and

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stuff i feel like there's so much to explore there and maybe this is just me just loving

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the idea of collecting data more than maybe i would actually use this very little but i think there is

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an obvious need for that there's a reason why clips took off so massively for example both for podcasts

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and also for just everything you know it's just all the platforms kind of had to build

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clipping into their systems because the people they they wanted to they did this anyway you know

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one thing about so in the olden days it was very common as a reader to keep a commonplace book you would

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read a book and you'd have a book next to the book where you would write your thoughts on the book

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as it happened um jonathan edwards has this like bible that's like think of a one page of the bible

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as the top left corner so like one quarter of the page and then three blank pages yeah where he could

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put notes so for every page of the bible he could write just tons and tons of notes and he also had an

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indexing system for his like he had a notebook about like observations of nature and just like a

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miscellaneous one and like a sermon notes so he had the kind of interlinking system but i just think

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you know if if part of the problem you said what do we want to do what are we trying to get out of this

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and i think with the personal knowledge stuff it's like i'm i'm taking in information to reflect on it on

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how i can better act in the world and to better understand the world so even if i'm watching like

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netflix slop with like lindsey lohan in it if i had a an important thing if i did some noticing and some

386
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:08,020
important uh insight i i want to pause it clip it like maybe voice prompt a very short essay about

387
00:42:08,020 --> 00:42:11,620
or something and then i could resume you know like sometimes like if you're watching something

388
00:42:11,620 --> 00:42:15,940
with a friend or something like maybe pause the movie like oh yeah let me explain this part to you

389
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:22,340
um i do that by the way i do that i have like uh my current workflow it evolved over the last 10

390
00:42:22,340 --> 00:42:29,380
years massively but but again coming back to the note taking knowledge graph apps and so on so i use

391
00:42:29,380 --> 00:42:34,260
standard notes a lot i i use it so much that it has trouble syncing because i have so much stuff in

392
00:42:34,260 --> 00:42:40,260
there um so um it works reasonably well still but i'll i think i'll have to file a bug report soon

393
00:42:41,380 --> 00:42:50,020
but i i start my day with a blank notes of the day note every day no matter what and it's just like a

394
00:42:50,020 --> 00:42:56,020
bullet point list that is check box formed so it i'll put some to do's there i'll put random thoughts

395
00:42:56,020 --> 00:43:01,700
there and i i have ways to annotate it and so on and i have ways to categorize it and and and but if i

396
00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:07,700
have an inside reading something i'll note it down and i always have some device with me that's linked

397
00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:12,580
up to standard notes to to this file and that's also why i like standard notes because you can you

398
00:43:12,580 --> 00:43:17,860
can automatically like it syncs to the file system like every single note is like a you know whatever

399
00:43:17,860 --> 00:43:23,780
markdown file and so on but uh so i'm not trapped in standard notes forever i know that

400
00:43:23,780 --> 00:43:31,460
i'm already not but but it's it's it's so so i have the same need and i'll do this also when i

401
00:43:31,460 --> 00:43:35,860
watch the movie you know i'll i'll note the name of the movie and i'll i'll note the inside and maybe

402
00:43:35,860 --> 00:43:42,500
later i'll come back to it and make something out of it like you know wait and it's maybe this is such

403
00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:48,660
a small quality life improvement but like why yeah why don't my digital devices know i'm watching this

404
00:43:48,660 --> 00:43:55,460
movie i'm at this spot in the movie here's a frame grab from it and so what i like to take a quick

405
00:43:55,460 --> 00:44:02,820
note i have the context of like whatever else i was doing packaged along and i feel like that should

406
00:44:02,820 --> 00:44:10,900
be just so easy to do now and you you alluded to it when you were talking about um you know like the

407
00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:15,460
old mac systems where everything kind of looked the same everything was integrated and so on

408
00:44:15,460 --> 00:44:21,220
and so so what what you are describing i'm already doing but i'm doing i'm doing lots of things

409
00:44:21,220 --> 00:44:29,220
manually like i posted a bunch of movie screens i just i just use vlc or whatever to go exactly to

410
00:44:29,220 --> 00:44:35,060
where i was like i have my ways to do this rather quickly and then i'll just i'll just i'll just put it

411
00:44:35,060 --> 00:44:41,140
in my file system and then i'll take my phone or whatever and it syncs you know with my with my

412
00:44:41,140 --> 00:44:46,660
folder where i put my things and i'll post it out on noster but but we could do this in a way more

413
00:44:46,660 --> 00:44:51,940
beautiful way where you just have a and always on working space you know like a very intelligent

414
00:44:51,940 --> 00:44:57,780
dropbox where you can just put stuff in and and just if you want blast it out and that was kind of

415
00:44:57,780 --> 00:45:02,900
the idea for highlighter as well for example like you know like it's and again coming back to readwise

416
00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:11,060
reader you you have potentially so much stuff in there that's that's not it's not necessarily like

417
00:45:11,060 --> 00:45:16,180
super private like highlights are not necessarily super private margin notes might be and so on but

418
00:45:16,180 --> 00:45:20,580
if you want to publish it you could decide to publish it it might be useful to other people

419
00:45:20,580 --> 00:45:24,740
and then you have suddenly uh uh you know like what i call swarm highlights where you can just

420
00:45:24,740 --> 00:45:33,460
what does my my network think about this passage of the book what are the margin notes that people

421
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:38,580
publish those kind of things one one of the things that i i one of the apps i've always wanted to make

422
00:45:38,580 --> 00:45:46,660
is called family bible and you make a tiny little social network with your family centered around the

423
00:45:46,660 --> 00:45:53,300
bible so my family is all over the country and uh we all attend different churches so that means we're

424
00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:59,940
having a different passage explained to us on any given sunday right i take a lot of notes at church

425
00:45:59,940 --> 00:46:05,460
so i have and you know the pastor's always jumping around through verses so i have references a

426
00:46:05,460 --> 00:46:10,500
commentary basically on tons of stuff and then all of us if we have a personal devotional time are

427
00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:16,020
reading the bible separately and highlighting it separately and having thoughts about it and it's

428
00:46:16,020 --> 00:46:20,980
not something you'd really want to publish broadly yeah but it's something you'd love to be able to

429
00:46:20,980 --> 00:46:26,900
because it's a way of you'd love to share yeah and you're increasing serendipity among each other

430
00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:36,100
yeah uh i i love that and it's like yeah because you know why do we do these social things ideal

431
00:46:36,660 --> 00:46:40,900
ideally it's so that we can feel more present with each other when we're not physically present

432
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:47,220
you know if you if you go online and that makes you feel isolated and shitty

433
00:46:47,220 --> 00:46:55,700
uh then something's wrong yeah and so but if you can go online and it like you spot a reminder of

434
00:46:55,700 --> 00:47:01,060
why you should call that person or it makes you just you know remember them fondly or think of them

435
00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:08,020
uh you know that's that's a win that's something that uh technology also another thing i thought

436
00:47:08,020 --> 00:47:14,500
about earlier this is a bit of a tangent but i feel like you know you're talking about the manual process

437
00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:19,460
you could already do this but it has a manual process i think one of the best indicators of when

438
00:47:19,460 --> 00:47:26,660
we're using a computer well is that we're getting computers to do computer work for us yeah it's like of

439
00:47:26,660 --> 00:47:32,980
all the things that it would be nice if a computer did it would be nice if it did some of my computer work

440
00:47:32,980 --> 00:47:40,180
for me yeah because that is almost always a pure win i'm sure that there are trade-offs i'm sure but

441
00:47:40,180 --> 00:47:48,660
uh if if something can be automated it should be automated basically yes yes and uh and ultimately

442
00:47:48,660 --> 00:47:56,660
because ultimately the goal the end is not being on the computer yes i have an end in mind and if i can

443
00:47:56,660 --> 00:48:02,740
get it done with less time on the computer that's just yes that's that's that's also i think that's

444
00:48:02,740 --> 00:48:08,900
it's it's very interesting observing that in the in the wider noster culture basically there's lots

445
00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:14,260
of people that are like trying to be outside as much as they can trying to make the apps and the

446
00:48:14,260 --> 00:48:22,580
things that they build as like least addictive as they can be those kind of things um i i think

447
00:48:23,940 --> 00:48:28,980
i think we've kind of lost the plot when it comes to technology or by we i mean like you know the

448
00:48:28,980 --> 00:48:33,940
current iteration of silicon valley and and the the whole tech crowd where it's just like the name

449
00:48:33,940 --> 00:48:40,500
of the game is making everyone as addicted as possible and it relates to the attention piece

450
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:47,780
that we talked about because if you have to you know use attention as your monetization proxy then

451
00:48:47,780 --> 00:48:54,100
you need to maximize addiction to drive profits that's what you need to do so technology actually

452
00:48:54,900 --> 00:49:00,660
doesn't serve us anymore like the the modern silicon valley technology most of the time doesn't serve

453
00:49:00,660 --> 00:49:06,340
it's users it's it's the users are working for the platforms to maximize the profits and so on so

454
00:49:06,340 --> 00:49:12,820
it's all kind of you know like lopsided but but um i i i i like where it's going with the with

455
00:49:12,820 --> 00:49:20,500
the nostra crowd where it's you know like people um uh you know like actually touching grass and uh

456
00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:26,100
being in the water and actually being outside that's also why i you know like i i wanted to

457
00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:31,220
have these conversations not centered around screens and not sitting together and staring

458
00:49:31,220 --> 00:49:39,060
into laptops and and sitting in in like a closed room like i i just i think we also to think about

459
00:49:39,060 --> 00:49:45,060
things properly you have to be outside and like yeah find inspiration from nature and the other things

460
00:49:45,060 --> 00:49:54,580
to figure out how we could how we could steer this into a more sensible also more human-centered

461
00:49:54,580 --> 00:49:56,900
direction yeah i think we really go

462
00:49:59,220 --> 00:50:02,180
astray when we're doing something that we have a hard time

463
00:50:02,820 --> 00:50:10,020
analogizing to the real world like uh it's potentially a sign of but but there is also

464
00:50:10,020 --> 00:50:14,100
there's also novel things that are kind of that we don't have in the real world and and you you

465
00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:19,220
mentioned previously like you want to share it with your family for example the family bible idea

466
00:50:19,220 --> 00:50:25,140
and so it's not necessarily public but it's also not like super private uh in it like not only for

467
00:50:25,140 --> 00:50:34,660
you and and i think we like the whole internet evolved in that direction um where um like

468
00:50:35,860 --> 00:50:42,740
group chats are the biggest thing on the internet basically right now i love group chats so so like i

469
00:50:42,740 --> 00:50:46,660
don't know what the estimates are so i'm gonna pull a number out my ass but it's like 80 of the

470
00:50:46,660 --> 00:50:51,860
the internet is like happening in group chats basically when compared to more open things like

471
00:50:51,860 --> 00:50:58,420
you know twitter and and facebook public pages and so on so most people are hiding in like whatsapp

472
00:50:58,420 --> 00:51:03,540
signal telegram private chats basically hiding quote unquote like they're not actually hiding it's just

473
00:51:03,540 --> 00:51:09,060
like i want to share this but i only share with my i only want to share with my group of people

474
00:51:09,060 --> 00:51:14,500
that's i think why why bitcoin twitter and now also nostor feels so nice because it's yes you're

475
00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:19,300
publishing it globally but you also know it will only be seen by those people like no one else is

476
00:51:19,300 --> 00:51:25,540
gonna care so it kind of is like a group chat a little bit it also isn't like for for for from

477
00:51:25,540 --> 00:51:31,220
from a pure like technical privacy standpoint and so on but still like the the group chat issue is

478
00:51:31,220 --> 00:51:35,460
always how private is a group chat if there's like more than five people in it you'll always have

479
00:51:35,460 --> 00:51:40,020
a mole you know like someone is going to take a screenshot and just send it into a bigger group or

480
00:51:40,020 --> 00:51:44,980
whatever so so so so you don't have any strong privacy assumptions in group chats in the first

481
00:51:44,980 --> 00:51:52,340
place and so so so but we don't have that the reason why i bring this up is we we kind of have that

482
00:51:52,340 --> 00:51:56,980
it's like if you're sitting at a bar and you're having a conversation or like right here we're sitting

483
00:51:56,980 --> 00:52:02,260
in the park we're having a conversation we it it looks and feels as if we are alone but there might

484
00:52:02,260 --> 00:52:05,780
be a guy like behind the bush listening to everything we say and in the bar the same thing

485
00:52:05,780 --> 00:52:15,140
i'll join too but but in in a bar like that's why my my go-to joke for bitcoin twitter was always

486
00:52:15,140 --> 00:52:19,940
like because people people got always so butthurt about like whatever drama and so on and they don't

487
00:52:19,940 --> 00:52:26,100
realize that it's like okay this is it's not only like a meeting room or like a sports club where

488
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:31,940
people hang out and it's also a bar you know where it's also a playground like some people might be like

489
00:52:31,940 --> 00:52:37,620
drunk right now you're arguing with them on twitter and getting upset and the guy might be out of his

490
00:52:37,620 --> 00:52:45,140
mind high you know or he might be 14 like you don't know you know and and so so we don't i don't think we

491
00:52:45,140 --> 00:52:53,620
have we have some things that we can compare with some meatspace things like again bars and and parks and

492
00:52:53,620 --> 00:52:59,780
so on that we that where we can draw comparisons but it's still strictly novel and i think the main issue

493
00:52:59,780 --> 00:53:06,100
with online discourse is that we unless you grew up on the internet we we lack good

494
00:53:07,540 --> 00:53:12,180
instincts and heuristics of how to deal with people and let's just one one one more thing

495
00:53:12,180 --> 00:53:16,660
then i'll stop the rant but there's people like jordan peterson who is completely butthurt about

496
00:53:16,660 --> 00:53:22,260
online anonymity i think he's very misguided about this and and there's people that are better with

497
00:53:22,900 --> 00:53:28,740
dealing with online trolls and toxicity for example like call it whatever you want but it's like

498
00:53:28,740 --> 00:53:34,660
in real life we're really good with that because if the town drunk comes up to you and tells you

499
00:53:34,660 --> 00:53:41,060
that you're an asshole or whatever or a liar you're you're not going to be upset it's the town drunk

500
00:53:41,620 --> 00:53:45,300
the the difference with twitter is or with online environments is there might be a hundred town

501
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:50,100
drunks coming to you and just saying whatever outrageous stuff yeah i don't i don't quite know what

502
00:53:50,100 --> 00:53:57,540
i think about the public timelines i i feel like something i've noticed about myself is that i'm way

503
00:53:57,540 --> 00:54:07,140
better at loving people in the abstract than loving gg loving a person you know like um and so i think

504
00:54:07,140 --> 00:54:14,500
there's something how do you mean that you'll have to explain it the concept of people i'd be much more

505
00:54:14,500 --> 00:54:22,260
likely to do something for civilization rather than like if my brother asked me to go run an errand for

506
00:54:22,260 --> 00:54:29,540
him i'd be like right like oh really okay interesting and i you know i i don't know if it's it there's

507
00:54:29,540 --> 00:54:35,940
something about maybe it's just kind of this tech mindset that i've been in of kind of thinking of

508
00:54:35,940 --> 00:54:43,300
people as kind of like just kind of the abstract people just the term people i i remember somebody

509
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:49,940
pointing this out about and you can you could hear it um when obama would say the word folks

510
00:54:51,540 --> 00:54:57,780
you'd hear it in his speeches like he had he always had two terms for people there's like a big bucket of

511
00:54:57,780 --> 00:55:02,500
undifferentiated people that i i may be able to pretend to care about but i don't necessarily really

512
00:55:02,500 --> 00:55:09,700
care about and then there's like you know your wife your kids your family or somebody you know even if

513
00:55:09,700 --> 00:55:16,500
they're a stranger that you have a actual personal moment with and you help them or you talk to them

514
00:55:16,980 --> 00:55:24,340
or and those are two different things and i feel like when the group chat says small i'm dealing with

515
00:55:24,340 --> 00:55:34,260
like i know these guys i'm talking to them specifically with their in mind that like uh we were talking

516
00:55:34,260 --> 00:55:40,100
earlier uh before the pod about like theory of mind like i have a theory of mind how all these guys

517
00:55:40,100 --> 00:55:44,900
are going to react i'm i'm trying to make all of them laugh or all of them think i'm racist or whatever

518
00:55:45,460 --> 00:55:50,260
i'm trying to do in this group chat if it's small enough and when you get to a certain size

519
00:55:50,820 --> 00:55:57,860
you're talking about your you have to compress it into an abstraction but but then also like it's very

520
00:55:57,860 --> 00:56:03,380
uh you'll have high coherence in small groups and the coherence dissipates the larger the group gets

521
00:56:03,380 --> 00:56:10,900
automatically uh so sort of stuff uh like like the the the the theory of mind that you have

522
00:56:11,460 --> 00:56:18,900
of the group like the the the you don't have a literal group think anymore you can't like once

523
00:56:18,900 --> 00:56:25,220
there's a couple hundred people have you seen that that that graph that shows like the liberals um

524
00:56:25,220 --> 00:56:34,980
think more about like the plight of the like the remote person oh there's a it's really there's a

525
00:56:34,980 --> 00:56:40,820
oh shoot i wish i could think of the proper nouns for this but but yeah so it's like basically the

526
00:56:40,820 --> 00:56:46,340
conservative tendency is to think a lot more about your family and immediate friends and stuff like

527
00:56:46,340 --> 00:56:53,140
that and you'll see it's you see it clustered in this chart right around the center people closest to

528
00:56:53,140 --> 00:56:59,140
me are the people i think most about yeah and i care most about whereas the liberal

529
00:57:01,300 --> 00:57:08,900
on this chart thinks the most and cares the most about like animal welfare yeah yeah in africa yeah

530
00:57:09,700 --> 00:57:16,420
people far away from them i think that's kind of this idea and i think i personally just have actually

531
00:57:16,420 --> 00:57:23,860
have that tendency okay so you you you care more about society or like the state of the internet

532
00:57:23,860 --> 00:57:29,860
than abstract person rather than the person right next to me that actually okay interesting and so i

533
00:57:29,860 --> 00:57:37,860
feel like that's something that i struggle with online of yeah the socializing online is um

534
00:57:37,860 --> 00:57:45,700
kind of colored by that yeah yeah yeah i i still i mean a lot of the things that we we just went

535
00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:53,780
through i think i feel like it's all related to web of trust but we don't have a good understanding yet

536
00:57:53,780 --> 00:58:01,220
how a web of trust actually works in some sense because i mean some of the things that the people that

537
00:58:01,220 --> 00:58:06,260
are working on this already ran into is like it's very hard to put it into one score for example it's

538
00:58:06,260 --> 00:58:12,740
it's like it's like a it's like a it's multiple vectors basically you know it's like a it's because

539
00:58:12,740 --> 00:58:20,180
lucky it's yeah yeah if we're lucky but it's like because it's also and i think pablo and i we talked

540
00:58:20,180 --> 00:58:29,140
about this this this briefly but it's like it's you know like you have this uh i i keep i i always feel

541
00:58:29,140 --> 00:58:31,780
bad when i repeat exactly the same things but i just i i

542
00:58:31,780 --> 00:58:41,620
to make it through the rain and everything else but it's it's you are not one person and you're

543
00:58:41,620 --> 00:58:46,900
kind of in in the middle of the overlap of multiple groups so your identity is not self-assigned first

544
00:58:46,900 --> 00:58:51,300
and foremost it's like other people will tell you who you are that's why you also lose your identity

545
00:58:51,300 --> 00:58:54,980
when you're in social isolation you go completely insane and everything else but it's like let's say

546
00:58:54,980 --> 00:59:00,900
i'm a bitcoiner i'm also you know a skateboarder i'm also an austrian i'm also you know like a guy

547
00:59:00,900 --> 00:59:08,180
who is on australia and so on and and so if i like i trust my group of bitcoin friends for example

548
00:59:08,740 --> 00:59:13,700
with various things but especially on the bitcoin side or bitcoin adjacent things you know like i don't

549
00:59:13,700 --> 00:59:19,300
trust them with on absolutely everything and that's just how it works that's how every web of trust

550
00:59:19,300 --> 00:59:25,380
works and we don't have great ways to model this in in in cyberspace in meat space that becomes natural

551
00:59:25,380 --> 00:59:32,340
it's like if you need help with i don't know like your gun you go to your gun nut friend you know

552
00:59:32,340 --> 00:59:37,140
and you'll whatever he says what is wrong with your gun you'll trust him if you need help how to prepare

553
00:59:37,140 --> 00:59:42,260
meat you'll go to your butcher or to whatever butcher friend or to your to your friend who is an awesome

554
00:59:42,260 --> 00:59:46,820
cook or chef or whatever and so on if you need help with a computer and you need trustworthy input in

555
00:59:46,820 --> 00:59:53,380
that department you'll go to someone who knows there like even if you disagree with him about like

556
00:59:53,380 --> 00:59:59,540
almost everything else and so on and and so so that's i think it relates to the to the to the

557
00:59:59,540 --> 01:00:03,780
group chat dynamic that's why for example you're you're and i'm sure that's true for everyone but

558
01:00:03,780 --> 01:00:09,620
you're in multiple groups with the same people and it happens all the time and it's like we we're not

559
01:00:09,620 --> 01:00:14,180
going to bring up sports or whatever in this group it's about this thing yeah this group is about this

560
01:00:14,180 --> 01:00:19,140
thing with these people and there's a big overlap with with the people in it and so on yeah also you

561
01:00:19,140 --> 01:00:23,700
said yeah you're not the same person with different people also you're not the same person over time

562
01:00:23,700 --> 01:00:32,740
not at all i know that's also another like social insecurity of mine is tend to take the absolute

563
01:00:32,740 --> 01:00:40,740
last the tail the tail last five minutes of interaction oh i think i i saw the hint of a frown

564
01:00:42,020 --> 01:00:46,660
in the last five minutes this person clearly wants to write me out of their life they're just trying to

565
01:00:46,660 --> 01:00:52,660
find a good opportunity to escape doesn't the bible uh talk about forgiveness uh yes well that you

566
01:00:52,660 --> 01:00:58,660
know i i wrote a bunch of uh not nearly as successful as your writing but i wrote a bunch of essays on

567
01:00:58,660 --> 01:01:06,820
trust and uh one of them was this idea of repeat games so you you could design a trust system where as

568
01:01:06,820 --> 01:01:13,220
soon as somebody makes a mistake you just like write them off they're dead to you yeah it doesn't work

569
01:01:13,220 --> 01:01:20,340
long but you there's not yeah you get the best if you have some yeah tit for tat that's actually the

570
01:01:20,340 --> 01:01:25,460
best some a little bit of forgiveness yeah you're like hey i'm gonna assume that was a mistake yeah

571
01:01:25,460 --> 01:01:33,780
um and and they actually i feel like they more capable like the bigger forgiveness budget that you can

572
01:01:33,780 --> 01:01:40,900
muster yourself yeah you actually there's so much upside to it yeah uh no i think they ran actually like

573
01:01:40,900 --> 01:01:44,660
they ran simulations and studies and all kinds of things on that and it's like turns out tit for

574
01:01:44,660 --> 01:01:49,620
that tit for tat is actually the best strategy and for repeat interaction it's like it's it's literally

575
01:01:49,620 --> 01:01:55,140
like what society has been saying all the time it's like three strikes and you're out basically if you

576
01:01:55,140 --> 01:02:00,980
if you repeat the game with known participants and so on if you fool me three times then it's like

577
01:02:00,980 --> 01:02:05,140
you're then you're off the table like there's it's going to be very hard to recover from that but but

578
01:02:05,140 --> 01:02:10,580
just if you if you if you move to a new city for example it's like the best strategy is tit for that i'm

579
01:02:10,580 --> 01:02:16,580
gonna trust you i'm gonna be open-minded and if you if you fuck me i'm gonna retaliate but then i'm

580
01:02:16,580 --> 01:02:21,380
gonna be open-minded again basically i'm gonna be forgiving again this whole kind of a tangent but

581
01:02:21,380 --> 01:02:27,140
the mission moving to new city i feel like something that we could maybe try to learn from nature is you

582
01:02:27,140 --> 01:02:35,300
know it was much more common historically for people to be born in one town live in that town and die in

583
01:02:35,300 --> 01:02:42,340
that town yeah and uh especially i think maybe before my generation but especially my generation

584
01:02:42,340 --> 01:02:48,420
has moved all over the us and my family specifically we've come all moved away from where our parents

585
01:02:48,420 --> 01:02:54,020
and i my brother's doing some genealogy i kind of have like a history of that like you know like

586
01:02:54,820 --> 01:02:58,980
you know not too many generations ago a lot of my ancestors were in europe and then they like for

587
01:02:58,980 --> 01:03:03,620
whatever original religious persecution moved to a different country in europe and then like this

588
01:03:03,620 --> 01:03:09,780
isn't working out so they come to the u.s and then they moved around in the u.s and so i'm sure i'm

589
01:03:09,780 --> 01:03:17,220
you know like bitadels bitcoiners talk about citadels and i do think there's something there's a yearning

590
01:03:17,220 --> 01:03:26,500
for what if we were truly established and what would that mean to have a good enough space that my kids not

591
01:03:26,500 --> 01:03:31,620
only want to stay here because they have a free house or whatever but they want to stay here because

592
01:03:31,620 --> 01:03:37,540
this is where they think they'll thrive and create something like a multi-generational because i think

593
01:03:37,540 --> 01:03:46,260
a lot of the the idea of yourself as an atomic individual bopping around and just completely

594
01:03:46,260 --> 01:03:56,100
unmoored is not very human and we kind of represent ourselves and act like that online a lot but i don't

595
01:03:56,100 --> 01:04:03,060
think that's actually very in line with who we're actually designed to be and i know i'm discovering

596
01:04:03,060 --> 01:04:08,820
that more of that yearning myself in the meat space of wanting like what would it take for me to find a

597
01:04:08,820 --> 01:04:14,340
place that i thought i would thrive and i thought my kids would thrive and we're going to build we're

598
01:04:14,340 --> 01:04:21,060
going to build a town called millersville or whatever it is uh i i i i find that yearning

599
01:04:21,860 --> 01:04:30,260
um and and this idea that it's so common for young people to think that they kind of have to invent

600
01:04:30,260 --> 01:04:38,820
their purpose it's a tall order especially at the age of 18 yeah and um i think some people are

601
01:04:38,820 --> 01:04:44,900
going to have weird ideas and need to go invent their purpose but i don't think that hasn't been

602
01:04:45,460 --> 01:04:53,540
the norm for all it also usually doesn't work right it's like you you it's um just like you can't you

603
01:04:53,540 --> 01:05:00,900
know self-identify and just make anything up you can't really you you don't define your purpose you you

604
01:05:00,900 --> 01:05:08,180
if you're lucky you find your purpose but it's it's it's always something that finds you and that pulls you

605
01:05:08,180 --> 01:05:13,300
and that you find really interesting for some reason you can't you can't choose what you find

606
01:05:13,300 --> 01:05:19,220
interesting you you really can't you can you can the the only thing you can do is like if you really

607
01:05:19,220 --> 01:05:24,020
want to pick something up if you want to learn how to i don't know like play the violin or play

608
01:05:24,020 --> 01:05:28,100
chess or whatever you can maneuver yourself in situations where you're surrounded by people that

609
01:05:28,100 --> 01:05:32,180
do that all the time but where does the impulse come from like where why why are you interested

610
01:05:32,180 --> 01:05:37,460
in doing that in the first place you know it's like it's it's because and i i say this out of

611
01:05:37,460 --> 01:05:44,020
personal experience like i didn't choose to burn down my old life and my my my existing career to

612
01:05:44,020 --> 01:05:50,020
go like all into bitcoin and go full-time into the insanity of that all like it really really really

613
01:05:50,020 --> 01:05:55,620
pulled me and and similar to to to the last stuff now it's like it's it's it really pulls me because

614
01:05:55,620 --> 01:06:03,220
i see so much potential in it i can't help but be interested in it it's it's it's it's and uh you know

615
01:06:03,220 --> 01:06:07,460
i i disagree with parker heavily i don't think it's a distraction i think it's essential to have

616
01:06:07,460 --> 01:06:11,540
like an identity layer that is actually permissionless on the internet to have

617
01:06:12,340 --> 01:06:17,540
self-sovereign self-sovereignty in cyberspace to have something that allows for maximum agency it's

618
01:06:17,540 --> 01:06:21,140
like because the alternative is like you'll you'll choose your gulag is the alternative

619
01:06:22,740 --> 01:06:27,700
which is not a great alternative and and i i really like what you what you what you said about the

620
01:06:27,700 --> 01:06:33,700
the the time aspect that the multi-generational aspect that's on i feel like as a society we lost

621
01:06:33,700 --> 01:06:39,060
all of that like we we had you know like the indigenous people had like they based their

622
01:06:39,060 --> 01:06:47,700
decisions on in part like how will this affect our family seven generations down the line we don't do

623
01:06:47,700 --> 01:06:52,980
anything like that but i think especially in cyberspace with the stuff that we're building now i feel like

624
01:06:52,980 --> 01:06:58,500
we should you know like it's i i feel like we kind of do like bitcoin is very low time preference

625
01:06:59,220 --> 01:07:05,300
also from an engineering perspective you know emission stops in the year 2140 so that tells you

626
01:07:05,300 --> 01:07:09,620
something about the time preference of the whole system already and so whatever you build but i think

627
01:07:09,620 --> 01:07:15,380
also on the industrial side like whatever it whatever you build like will my grandkids be able to use that

628
01:07:15,380 --> 01:07:21,860
just as just as we design it just as we architect it right now because the fucking unix tools for

629
01:07:21,860 --> 01:07:27,540
example to come back to that yeah they build it that way i still use you know grapple whatever that

630
01:07:27,540 --> 01:07:34,020
like some guy is cooked programming language yeah i i think that's something beautiful and i think that's

631
01:07:34,020 --> 01:07:41,540
part of it it's like by building tools with your grandchildren in mind that is potentially something

632
01:07:41,540 --> 01:07:49,860
that they can stick around for it's like if you are an atomic economic unit and the things that you make

633
01:07:49,860 --> 01:07:57,940
are just in service of a one specific company what what part of that company are you passing on to

634
01:07:57,940 --> 01:08:03,460
your kids unless you have like stock options but even then like what is what is it for them to do what

635
01:08:03,460 --> 01:08:11,780
is it for them to carry on like what part of the job um is it is is it is the is there to work on

636
01:08:11,780 --> 01:08:16,340
because we're not going to finish it we're just trying to go in the right direction like we're we're

637
01:08:16,340 --> 01:08:21,940
trying to lay a foundation of a cathedral and i'm hoping my grandchild is really great at stained

638
01:08:21,940 --> 01:08:32,100
glass when the time when the time comes yeah i think i i i you you you touched on it uh briefly but i

639
01:08:32,100 --> 01:08:40,100
think the i mean we we cite the sovereign individual thesis a lot because i think the book got a lot of

640
01:08:40,100 --> 01:08:47,300
things right when it comes to the inversion of power that cryptography brings with it uh like i i

641
01:08:47,300 --> 01:08:52,500
mentioned it briefly today i think where it's like the the the superpower that cryptography

642
01:08:54,260 --> 01:09:01,780
gives you is that you have a shield that force cannot break like if you encrypt something and you

643
01:09:01,780 --> 01:09:09,700
know what you're doing like even if the us and china and russia would collude to try to brute force your

644
01:09:09,700 --> 01:09:15,620
thing they can't like that's very very powerful the second thing is that there is no barrier to

645
01:09:15,620 --> 01:09:21,220
entry anyone can use it it's just math basically so i always bring up the the thought experiment which

646
01:09:21,220 --> 01:09:26,580
is way more than a thought experiment like i i know people that actually did it and for some of my keys

647
01:09:26,580 --> 01:09:34,020
i did this myself where you actually you can you can lock yourself in the bathroom where you where you

648
01:09:34,020 --> 01:09:41,700
have high assurances of privacy flip a coin a couple times and you come out with a working bitcoin

649
01:09:41,700 --> 01:09:46,340
private key which means a working way to receive bitcoin like you basically you come out with a

650
01:09:46,340 --> 01:09:52,500
bitcoin wallet so to speak you know and so so so those two things the permission less nature of it just

651
01:09:52,500 --> 01:10:00,340
being math and the force inversion basically that that like you you basically have a thing that no

652
01:10:00,340 --> 01:10:07,700
amount of violence in the world can break open that's what that's what affords you all the you know

653
01:10:08,900 --> 01:10:13,220
all the it affords yourself sovereignty in cyberspace but i think where a lot of

654
01:10:14,420 --> 01:10:20,980
a lot of uh think boys turned the wrong way it's like that doesn't mean that you're you're gonna be

655
01:10:20,980 --> 01:10:26,740
the the so the sovereign individual thesis doesn't mean that you're completely self-sufficient about

656
01:10:26,740 --> 01:10:33,860
absolutely everything you're not an atomized thing bumping around in the void you will always be

657
01:10:33,860 --> 01:10:42,100
embedded in a social fabric to get anything done like or to stay sane even to have an identity even and

658
01:10:42,100 --> 01:10:47,780
you'll always be dependent on outside factors even if it's just the environment you know it's and you

659
01:10:47,780 --> 01:10:52,740
you hope also that people would be dependent on you yes you want to be of service right like in

660
01:10:52,740 --> 01:10:57,620
the best case it's like you you want to do something useful with your life everyone who ever tried to

661
01:10:57,620 --> 01:11:02,340
retire probably knows this it's like you you're hanging out on the beach and sipping margaritas for

662
01:11:02,340 --> 01:11:07,620
two weeks and it's like what are you gonna do it's like you'll be depressed instantly but but

663
01:11:07,620 --> 01:11:13,780
the reason why i bring all this up is because you even in a sovereign individual environment so to

664
01:11:13,780 --> 01:11:19,220
speak it's like you're still gonna need social connection you're still gonna need reputation

665
01:11:19,220 --> 01:11:23,620
all those kind of things all the all the things that that we're working on on the nostra side

666
01:11:23,620 --> 01:11:32,180
because you need a functioning social structure to make anything work really like i mean the austrians

667
01:11:32,180 --> 01:11:38,100
know this is like you know i pencil what do you need to create a pencil from scratch the no single

668
01:11:38,100 --> 01:11:42,580
person can ever create a pencil from scratch and and and i think what we are kind of

669
01:11:44,180 --> 01:11:49,700
hoping to do with the next iteration of the internet is like break open that silos and let

670
01:11:49,700 --> 01:11:56,980
the whole thing self-organize as opposed to like you know like three gigantic platforms dictate how

671
01:11:56,980 --> 01:12:01,940
the whole thing works i think that's kind of the underlying ethos and i think it's not it's not a self

672
01:12:01,940 --> 01:12:08,820
organization like a borg consciousness no it's more like a jungle self-organizing yeah yeah i think

673
01:12:08,820 --> 01:12:15,540
there's a like a i think there's a real low role for leadership that i think i think bitcoiners are

674
01:12:15,540 --> 01:12:23,060
naturally contrarian and anti-authoritarian and a lot of them have been burned by specific bad leaders

675
01:12:23,780 --> 01:12:30,020
but if you think of like why do we have the good things that we have it's mostly because one

676
01:12:30,020 --> 01:12:36,500
one individual thought really hard about something worked really hard on something pushed really

677
01:12:36,500 --> 01:12:42,100
hard and then you know sometimes you could just push it off the shore and it works you know sometimes

678
01:12:42,100 --> 01:12:51,140
you have to sometimes you need a captain on the ship you know i i think i think humans naturally crave

679
01:12:53,780 --> 01:12:58,340
leadership and authority and it doesn't that doesn't mean by decree it's different than

680
01:12:59,140 --> 01:13:05,460
because i said so like fiat i love when jimmy song says like fiat is latin for because yeah yeah

681
01:13:06,180 --> 01:13:11,220
it's different than because i said it looks let there be light there's an earned form of leadership

682
01:13:11,220 --> 01:13:19,300
where you defer to someone who's put in the work and it has risked something and is pushing hard for

683
01:13:19,300 --> 01:13:25,300
something and we don't always have to defer to everybody all the time but i think we should be on the

684
01:13:25,300 --> 01:13:32,100
lookout for uh for leaders and interesting it's interesting that you say that i'm not sure if i

685
01:13:32,100 --> 01:13:40,820
agree it's in the in the sense of i know that the human like all humans like leaders and especially

686
01:13:41,620 --> 01:13:48,100
charismatic leaders and so on like everyone kind of tries to find someone to to lead the way and and

687
01:13:48,100 --> 01:13:53,780
kind of you know steer the ship and those kind of things but i when i when i wanna when i hope

688
01:13:57,380 --> 01:14:03,300
i and it's it's it's it's fascinating to me that you're saying this because what what christianity

689
01:14:03,300 --> 01:14:09,060
shows like as a christian you're saying this it's like i i'm in some sense yes christians are following

690
01:14:09,060 --> 01:14:16,900
jesus yes but in in my mind and maybe i'm very wrong about it but it's it's like it's the right story

691
01:14:16,900 --> 01:14:21,700
it's the right story to tell it's like it's it's not even yes it's the right person to follow but

692
01:14:21,700 --> 01:14:26,820
it's it's it's in in my in my mind it's even bigger than that it's like it's like what what is the

693
01:14:26,820 --> 01:14:32,900
vision you know like what is the vision what is the what is something that is worth aiming at and

694
01:14:33,940 --> 01:14:38,660
that's what i want to figure out for i think that's the that's the peterson

695
01:14:38,660 --> 01:14:48,260
heresy fair enough fair enough oh we found an archetype fair enough where jesus says i am

696
01:14:48,260 --> 01:14:54,020
the way yeah yeah i am the truth i am the life but that's the but that's you said you just said i

697
01:14:54,020 --> 01:14:59,940
don't and and i mean everyone who who who uh you know knows a little bit about this stuff knows this

698
01:14:59,940 --> 01:15:06,180
but it's the early followers of of jesus of nazareth were uh um the followers of the way

699
01:15:06,180 --> 01:15:12,820
and he said he was the way and the embodiment of the way so to speak and and and so so in the taoist

700
01:15:12,820 --> 01:15:18,820
tradition that there is only the way you know there is like the uh and and i i feel like that

701
01:15:18,820 --> 01:15:23,140
bringing it back to cyberspace and to the current iteration of the internet i feel like we lost the way

702
01:15:23,940 --> 01:15:29,780
massively and i'm not sure if a person can bring it back i don't think elon is gonna save us i don't

703
01:15:29,780 --> 01:15:35,780
think doge is gonna save us i don't think trump is gonna save us i think what we we have to ask ourselves

704
01:15:35,780 --> 01:15:41,780
the really hard questions is like what should the internet be i i well yes we should ask ourselves

705
01:15:41,780 --> 01:15:48,100
that question we should discuss amongst ourselves i think the thing is you know that this podcast is

706
01:15:48,100 --> 01:15:52,820
no solutions only trade us right we're humans we're not none of us so if we don't have a person

707
01:15:52,820 --> 01:15:59,380
none of us is going to be the jesus of the internet i hope not but what you i'm sure you've been involved

708
01:15:59,380 --> 01:16:07,620
in things that are a design by committee versus designed by an individual a sahil

709
01:16:08,980 --> 01:16:15,780
big one designer talks about this is the throat to choke you don't end up with an inspired design that

710
01:16:16,420 --> 01:16:25,380
considers trade-offs when you when you are designed by committee you're settling for something that

711
01:16:25,380 --> 01:16:34,340
doesn't piss anybody off yeah leader is able to to push for something that is going to make 20 of

712
01:16:34,340 --> 01:16:41,140
the people really sad no great art was ever done by a committee yes yeah yes and i think we need a

713
01:16:41,140 --> 01:16:49,140
little bit more of that art i see i see i see yeah that kind of makes sense now i i definitely agree that

714
01:16:49,140 --> 01:16:55,460
um i don't know that's another balance to strike i feel like there are some systems that really

715
01:16:56,660 --> 01:17:06,340
thrive on not putting too much weight on a single individual um again like i i pablo mentioned this

716
01:17:06,340 --> 01:17:10,820
briefly like i'm i'm a huge believer in distributed cognition that's why i think like having these

717
01:17:10,820 --> 01:17:15,940
conversations is super important having the having the the constant dialogue about this stuff is super

718
01:17:15,940 --> 01:17:21,060
important because no single person is going to figure everything out it's just like there's going

719
01:17:21,060 --> 01:17:26,660
to be a little nugget of insight here a little nugget of of insight there and like uh uh again

720
01:17:26,660 --> 01:17:32,100
we're coining new terms and phrases as we move along because we're trying to think through those things and

721
01:17:32,100 --> 01:17:37,460
we are i'm still convinced like we're missing most of the vocabulary to meaningfully talk about

722
01:17:37,460 --> 01:17:44,180
this stuff and like uh like pablo and i we we already talked about like the the the um the data being

723
01:17:44,180 --> 01:17:49,380
bearer and it's like uh um we landed on a different term just like yesterday which was uh

724
01:17:50,660 --> 01:17:54,660
self-sufficient data or something like that now i'm blanking on the term again self-verifying

725
01:17:54,660 --> 01:17:59,940
self-verifying where where it's just like if you have the data you have everything you need

726
01:17:59,940 --> 01:18:04,900
where it comes from there there is no authority yeah it removes the authority from the equation

727
01:18:04,900 --> 01:18:10,660
and then when i talked with with kelly like we landed on on a blinded custodian you know like it's

728
01:18:10,660 --> 01:18:14,340
there's a difference between a custodian a regular custodian and the blinded custodian

729
01:18:14,340 --> 01:18:19,300
there's a big difference and so we're figuring out all these all these terms and and we're doing

730
01:18:19,300 --> 01:18:25,060
it by you know like participating in this distributed cognition i think saps is a great example for

731
01:18:25,060 --> 01:18:30,260
example as well saps are not payments they can be payments but they are not exclusively payments

732
01:18:30,260 --> 01:18:36,900
saps are also not tips i think and i think it was fantastic of will to not call them tips like i i you

733
01:18:36,900 --> 01:18:40,420
uh you know i had a little bit of a say in that because i was like if you call them tips you're

734
01:18:40,420 --> 01:18:44,820
only gonna get tips and it's just gonna be like you're exhibiting some leadership yeah no no

735
01:18:47,700 --> 01:18:52,500
you know the thing with cheeses is that he ends up on the cross that's uh that's uh no no

736
01:18:52,500 --> 01:18:59,620
fuck that not at all and and um like i i didn't come up with saps i didn't uh you know like not at

737
01:18:59,620 --> 01:19:04,420
all i know the leader doesn't come up with everything no no but don't try to bully me into becoming a

738
01:19:04,420 --> 01:19:11,140
leader of anything i i try to remove myself the the goal of this experiment by the way is to to to

739
01:19:11,140 --> 01:19:18,900
to end it and potentially i think what we can do in uh these leaderless maloos is find people that we

740
01:19:18,900 --> 01:19:25,540
tend to agree who have been have great track records like in bitcoin i love uh like uh bitstein

741
01:19:25,540 --> 01:19:32,100
and piero shark oh fantastic what a track fantastic they started talking again uh by the way as well

742
01:19:32,100 --> 01:19:38,020
like broadcasting yes that's great yes that's great to hear yeah yeah but reorg so many early

743
01:19:38,020 --> 01:19:43,140
called shots yeah and i you know i love that so like people who have a long track record of being

744
01:19:43,140 --> 01:19:52,260
right yeah um that you like have a good vibe about uh and that are speaking you know since i think are

745
01:19:52,260 --> 01:19:59,140
are people that you you can like because yes one person can't make all the decisions but also as an

746
01:19:59,140 --> 01:20:06,420
individual i am under indexed on all the knowledge i need to make the right decision for myself a lot

747
01:20:06,420 --> 01:20:15,300
of times so i i'm hopefully looking to people that i view as wise as quality yes yes yes yes and i was

748
01:20:15,300 --> 01:20:24,820
just about to say i feel like we have way too many leaders and way too few wise people and i i i so not

749
01:20:24,820 --> 01:20:31,540
want to want to be a leader i can see myself smoking a pipe on the porch having a gray beard and trying

750
01:20:31,540 --> 01:20:39,780
to you know just uh you know talk to the youngsters of of what they might not have considered you know

751
01:20:39,780 --> 01:20:45,780
like we we have very few old people with experience that have seen that know

752
01:20:45,780 --> 01:20:52,100
shit and and they're they're completely excluded from these conversations where and and verveke

753
01:20:52,100 --> 01:20:58,100
always always asks us like where do you go for wisdom in today's day and age because people where

754
01:20:58,100 --> 01:21:01,620
do you go for information where do you go for knowledge and where do you go for wisdom the

755
01:21:01,620 --> 01:21:05,620
information is easy it's like you go to google chat computer whatever where do you go for knowledge

756
01:21:05,620 --> 01:21:10,020
like it used to be the library all those kind of things and so where do you go for wisdom everyone

757
01:21:10,020 --> 01:21:16,180
draws a blank there is no place to go for wisdom so i i don't think we need need leaders necessarily

758
01:21:16,180 --> 01:21:21,860
like in the sense of oh we're gonna dictate like how this needs to be done but but i i i i think we

759
01:21:21,860 --> 01:21:27,220
need i wise people i think when you even when you said that i it's uh the weather disagrees it starts

760
01:21:27,220 --> 01:21:33,860
raining again so so god is angry with my me not stepping up oh yeah thanks

761
01:21:33,860 --> 01:21:44,900
should we should we try to make the same move sure let's try you up to it let's try i'll see i can i

762
01:21:44,900 --> 01:21:50,580
can walk again a little bit maybe with crutches and everything up easier than the stairs yeah let's

763
01:21:50,580 --> 01:21:58,260
take the stairs but yeah no i think i just you know bitcoin as a leaderless system i think it's just

764
01:21:58,260 --> 01:22:06,580
allergic to i don't think so at all i think bitcoin had a leader you know satoshi nakamoto and then he

765
01:22:06,580 --> 01:22:13,140
left and then when i showed up to bitcoin uh it had a technically it had a a peter willa

766
01:22:15,140 --> 01:22:21,940
that's an awesome peter willa meme it's like rough consensus like it's a scooby-doo meme where it's like

767
01:22:22,500 --> 01:22:28,100
rips off the face that the bad guy is hiding under and it's like now we'll finally know

768
01:22:28,100 --> 01:22:37,380
who we are consensus yeah i guess you have a point so you i think that's the thing is is there

769
01:22:38,980 --> 01:22:42,740
that's my current belief is that there isn't such a thing as a leaderless system

770
01:22:43,620 --> 01:22:51,140
people might not know uh exactly who it's like you know we all knew that uh joe biden wasn't

771
01:22:51,140 --> 01:22:56,900
president we didn't necessarily knew know who was but i don't think anybody really thought that

772
01:22:56,900 --> 01:23:04,820
there was some sort of like rough consensus going on at the white house yeah fair enough i mean it's

773
01:23:04,820 --> 01:23:11,140
i don't know i again like i don't i don't i don't have the answers my best i can do right now is to

774
01:23:11,140 --> 01:23:18,500
talk about stuff and i think i think i hope that we'll just figure it out along the way and my again

775
01:23:18,500 --> 01:23:21,780
my main worry is that we're just going to repeat the mistakes of the past

776
01:23:21,780 --> 01:23:28,420
and that's kind of like also what i mean by that's usually what the old wise guy is for you know

777
01:23:28,420 --> 01:23:32,980
he's been around and he saw the things and he had the wisdom passed down from you know his granddad and

778
01:23:32,980 --> 01:23:38,820
so on and so he knows what not to do he doesn't know what to do right but he at least knows what not

779
01:23:38,820 --> 01:23:49,300
to do and i find in my life that i usually don't listen to the guy who tells me what not to do

780
01:23:50,260 --> 01:23:58,980
and i do it but then i realize he was right yeah and so i recover from that mistake a lot quicker

781
01:23:58,980 --> 01:24:06,500
with a lot sharper understanding of what just happened because my new mistake that i otherwise

782
01:24:06,500 --> 01:24:11,300
you'd be lost probably yeah yeah so i mean i know that for you know i've been a christian my

783
01:24:11,300 --> 01:24:19,060
whole life i read the bible i've got a million sermons you know i have so much wisdom from god

784
01:24:21,780 --> 01:24:25,140
buried several layers deep under like a folder of tiktoks

785
01:24:26,740 --> 01:24:32,100
in my brain and so when i make a mistake and i feel the pain of that mistake

786
01:24:32,100 --> 01:24:39,060
i can it kind of reinforces the wisdom that i receive from the bible and also kind of like

787
01:24:39,060 --> 01:24:44,820
prompts me okay let's go back what was the bible say what was the specifics of that passage what else

788
01:24:44,820 --> 01:24:49,620
could we like really lock in this learning that is one of the most frustrating things getting older

789
01:24:50,260 --> 01:24:55,540
making the same mistake over and over it's bad enough to do it one time but making the same mistake

790
01:24:55,540 --> 01:25:00,740
a bunch of times that's really that's really yeah i like the saying let's make new mistakes you know

791
01:25:00,740 --> 01:25:08,420
like that's that's way better do you prompt the bible at all uh i um i kind of use it first i'll

792
01:25:08,420 --> 01:25:14,260
use a ai for search of the bible okay what was the passage all right what's diverse that mentions this

793
01:25:14,260 --> 01:25:18,500
and that okay if i'm like i can't remember the exact text because i as far as i'm aware people

794
01:25:18,500 --> 01:25:24,020
build systems where you actually can talk to the bible basically in some sense and respond in some way

795
01:25:24,020 --> 01:25:39,620
i mean i just there is so the they um there's a a thinking in christianity of of being what's called a

796
01:25:39,620 --> 01:25:47,460
confessional church which is a church that is modeling its theology on like the old confessions of

797
01:25:47,460 --> 01:25:53,940
faith like i believe in god the father son you know like the those kind of uh the idea that there

798
01:25:53,940 --> 01:26:02,740
has been a corpus of um theological truths that have been derived from scripture over the history

799
01:26:02,740 --> 01:26:11,140
and that i build on those and so i don't just uh go to the bible without any context or help so i have

800
01:26:11,140 --> 01:26:18,180
i have like two thousands of two thousand years of historical good teaching on the layers build up

801
01:26:18,180 --> 01:26:28,900
on that yeah yeah and so uh i wouldn't trust the ai to like mix those carefully chosen words written

802
01:26:28,900 --> 01:26:36,500
like hundreds or thousands of years ago into like a new sentence no i wouldn't trust the precision

803
01:26:36,500 --> 01:26:41,860
all right so be careful with bible flop yeah don't be careful with javascript

804
01:26:41,860 --> 01:26:48,580
slop no it's not as dangerous there's no confessional javascript yet

805
01:26:55,060 --> 01:27:00,420
no i just i just i just i i was assuming that you would because i i see you prompting

806
01:27:00,980 --> 01:27:06,340
you know almost everything now uh you're a prompt expert in my book you showed me the ways

807
01:27:06,340 --> 01:27:14,260
of cursor and all that stuff so i love the i love the sensation of moving quickly and i think

808
01:27:14,260 --> 01:27:21,860
a lot of it is this based on like what am i really bringing to the table here it's the intent like the

809
01:27:21,860 --> 01:27:28,660
why and the how or not the how the why and the what yeah i'm deciding what should happen and why it

810
01:27:28,660 --> 01:27:35,780
should be happening i was never the world's greatest coder yeah it's always shipping some bugs so now i

811
01:27:35,780 --> 01:27:44,100
can ship the ai's bugs and i can move like 10 times faster so i love it for that um but you know

812
01:27:44,100 --> 01:27:49,140
it's interesting you know you know that thing with like when you see an article in the newspaper on a

813
01:27:49,140 --> 01:27:54,180
topic that you actually know a lot about and you see how many mistakes it makes and we forget that then

814
01:27:54,180 --> 01:28:00,340
you turn the page yeah all of the articles are probably that mistakey i know for instance with like

815
01:28:00,340 --> 01:28:06,900
creative writing because i used to you know write uh professionally like write essays and stuff like

816
01:28:06,900 --> 01:28:17,620
that ai can't come close to uh what i would like out of an essay it is so far from inspired in that

817
01:28:17,620 --> 01:28:24,980
sense yeah yeah i actually think i think code ends up being ai is really good at code because it's such a

818
01:28:24,980 --> 01:28:32,100
small subset of language yeah it's actually it's it's impressive how good it is at language but it's

819
01:28:32,100 --> 01:28:40,340
so far from the level we use language at yeah we'll see how all that evolves like i keep being impressed

820
01:28:40,340 --> 01:28:47,140
um and like i mentioned like i i i read all the ai books back in the day and was a big like

821
01:28:47,140 --> 01:28:53,140
you know part of the singularity crowd basically and just like we're gonna hit the knee of the curve

822
01:28:53,140 --> 01:28:57,540
anytime now i feel like we're all we're very close to the knee of the curve now with just um

823
01:28:58,660 --> 01:29:04,820
the way that the llms work and still improve and there is no tapering off in terms of improvements

824
01:29:04,820 --> 01:29:14,900
really again like verveki has great arguments about why ai won't reach like sagi status anytime soon

825
01:29:14,900 --> 01:29:23,620
unless we decide to embody it and like actually give actually put uh the llms into robots and let them

826
01:29:23,620 --> 01:29:28,980
learn by experience as an embodied thing in the real world and all those kind of things like he has long

827
01:29:28,980 --> 01:29:33,700
long chains of arguments around it but it's still it's still very impressive to me what the

828
01:29:34,260 --> 01:29:40,900
things can do and it's especially impressive on the coding side because you can single prompt your

829
01:29:40,900 --> 01:29:46,020
way to glory into something that like basically works and i agree on the writing side like when

830
01:29:46,020 --> 01:29:51,460
it comes to creative writing they're not great and you can most of the time spot still spot when

831
01:29:51,460 --> 01:29:58,580
if something is generated or not like it always has kind of the same feel to it in some way and uh i mean

832
01:29:58,580 --> 01:30:04,020
you know like they are not truly agentic yet because they're not self-motivated and thus they are not

833
01:30:04,020 --> 01:30:10,820
inspiring to use your words you know like they can't inspire they they can't even inspire themselves

834
01:30:11,380 --> 01:30:17,380
yeah well there's a lot of there's a lot of thinking on like where where new information comes

835
01:30:17,380 --> 01:30:25,780
from and i kind of have a theory that like if you you could think of if you think of the universe as a

836
01:30:25,780 --> 01:30:33,700
closed system humans are accessing a lot of the universe and therefore are discovering more about it

837
01:30:33,700 --> 01:30:41,460
and then we learn new information that is at least new to our corpus of texts and discoveries

838
01:30:41,460 --> 01:30:46,420
and stuff like that and then that's what we feed into the ai so it's possible that the embodied ai

839
01:30:46,980 --> 01:30:53,780
will have access to to such a broad something more like you know the actual universe so therefore

840
01:30:54,580 --> 01:31:02,100
so much more information but i don't think that a closed system can invent new

841
01:31:02,980 --> 01:31:10,500
information well well i think we'll find out well uh someone is gonna you know some crazy chinese or

842
01:31:10,500 --> 01:31:17,380
russian guy is gonna is gonna try and put these things into a dog robot i have to admit i've been

843
01:31:17,380 --> 01:31:25,860
very underestimating the the reach of ai as much as i love it right now uh i mean ai has been

844
01:31:26,580 --> 01:31:32,820
the wildest shift in technology i've experienced in my life and i was paying very much attention

845
01:31:33,700 --> 01:31:45,860
when we went online and when uh the um the web 2.0 era and the iphone era i was paying very close

846
01:31:45,860 --> 01:31:51,860
attention for several a couple of those i was a technology journalist and i've never felt something

847
01:31:51,860 --> 01:31:57,060
that especially probably because my profession is coding and it's that's the profession most impacted

848
01:31:57,060 --> 01:32:05,220
by this it's wild that like a year ago i was handwriting code yeah it's like it's like a year ago

849
01:32:06,020 --> 01:32:13,460
i was a like it was a different era as a shovel digger yeah and now there exists like you know bulldozers

850
01:32:13,460 --> 01:32:17,300
yeah sandwich said it well today where it's like if you know what you're doing you basically have

851
01:32:17,300 --> 01:32:24,820
200 like very capable coding peons under you you know that just can like if you divvy up the tasks

852
01:32:24,820 --> 01:32:32,180
correctly and if you know what you want to do and build the right kind of um system for the agents

853
01:32:32,980 --> 01:32:37,940
they will just build all the things and what would have taken you a team of 20 people in six months you

854
01:32:37,940 --> 01:32:44,020
can do solo in like an hour and what i love about this is a part of it is exposing what are humans

855
01:32:44,020 --> 01:32:50,260
actually for yeah i feel like we're in a constant discovery process like turns out you know the

856
01:32:50,260 --> 01:32:55,860
there's a famous do you know the john john henry story no this is like an old american folk tale of

857
01:32:55,860 --> 01:33:04,420
john henry he's like basically the world's greatest um steel driving man so he's hammering rail ties

858
01:33:05,620 --> 01:33:12,020
and then they came out with a machine that could hammer rail ties so they put in the machine

859
01:33:12,020 --> 01:33:17,620
against john henry and john henry went as fast as he could and he beat the machine but then he dies

860
01:33:20,020 --> 01:33:23,620
and so it's like it's like the swan song of the steel driving man

861
01:33:24,580 --> 01:33:28,340
and so it's like we you know we put our identity in the one

862
01:33:29,300 --> 01:33:32,660
it's the it's the german fairy tale version of a happy ending you know

863
01:33:33,620 --> 01:33:36,820
he beats the machine then he burns alive or something like that

864
01:33:36,820 --> 01:33:42,580
yeah so that's the you know we're always you know i i think i feel the same

865
01:33:43,540 --> 01:33:50,100
i strongly disagree about with tucker that we shouldn't let the ai take over like truck driving

866
01:33:50,100 --> 01:34:00,180
for instance because the truck driver that is not who that guy is that guy that guy has an incredible

867
01:34:00,180 --> 01:34:05,300
that guy is responsible for carrying millions of dollars worth of goods around he can wake up in

868
01:34:05,300 --> 01:34:11,860
the morning he's he could be upstanding pillar of a society but he's gone on the road all the time

869
01:34:11,860 --> 01:34:18,740
and so um you know if somebody finds all you know absolutely just loves being in a truck all the time

870
01:34:18,740 --> 01:34:24,020
i'm sure we you know they could find i mean we saw that with horses right it's like everyone had to

871
01:34:24,020 --> 01:34:28,340
ride horses for transportation and now it's like if you really want to ride horses and it's your thing

872
01:34:28,340 --> 01:34:35,140
yeah you can i think we'll still need good training data of what good try driving actually looks like

873
01:34:35,140 --> 01:34:42,180
yeah i think i think we'll you know i'd say with code we need we need luddites who hate ai

874
01:34:43,220 --> 01:34:49,940
to write really great code in new programming languages so that we can trade ai yeah we need a

875
01:34:49,940 --> 01:34:55,780
trading set of of carefully thought through information yeah we'll see i think i'll link

876
01:34:55,780 --> 01:35:00,260
to i'll have to send it to you um again very can makes a great argument about

877
01:35:03,300 --> 01:35:08,820
like he has a theory of mind i would say where

878
01:35:10,980 --> 01:35:18,740
he may he makes a great argument like what would be missing like why why why is ai not wise right now

879
01:35:18,740 --> 01:35:25,860
like if we if we could have silicon sages then he would be in favor of having them like if we could

880
01:35:25,860 --> 01:35:34,900
build ai that is as wise as as jesus or as laute or like pick your you know as buddha you know um

881
01:35:34,900 --> 01:35:39,860
then that would be fantastic like you have your own personal jesus in your pocket basically that that

882
01:35:39,860 --> 01:35:46,820
will never mislead you and will always have right have will always point you into into the right

883
01:35:46,820 --> 01:35:52,500
direction you'll have a wise sage at your side but he has great arguments of like why we can't

884
01:35:52,500 --> 01:35:58,020
have that yet and what is still missing until we reach that point and kind of we have to make a

885
01:35:59,380 --> 01:36:03,940
decision as a society if we would want to have that for example because it's it's not going to be

886
01:36:03,940 --> 01:36:06,820
all sunshines and sunshine and rainbows think of two

887
01:36:06,820 --> 01:36:20,100
counterfactuals for why that could exist i think of the conscience and uh the um the muse i think we

888
01:36:20,100 --> 01:36:28,100
have reference to two things that are you know you do not build up a conscience by like going through

889
01:36:28,100 --> 01:36:32,900
like the utilitarian arguments until you derive morality like conscience i think is something that's

890
01:36:32,900 --> 01:36:42,340
built into a human i think it's god given and then the muse you creative people have been visited by

891
01:36:42,900 --> 01:36:52,740
yeah something yeah over the ages that leads them to do something new and i don't i don't think it's

892
01:36:52,740 --> 01:36:57,940
just derived from their collection of experiences necessarily i think that's something there's something

893
01:36:57,940 --> 01:37:04,740
more to it yeah yeah i don't have an answer to that at all like i'm not sure if the muse will

894
01:37:05,940 --> 01:37:09,460
visit you know claude sonnet hasn't yet

895
01:37:13,300 --> 01:37:19,060
but we'll see we'll find it out all right i think i'll need to lie down now okay my foot is swollen

896
01:37:19,780 --> 01:37:26,500
my brain is fried we it was a walking thing after all because we got rained on and we had to walk twice

897
01:37:26,500 --> 01:37:35,940
at least 40 steps into this conversation and yeah no i i i feel like we we we there were like

898
01:37:35,940 --> 01:37:41,860
five things that i wanted to hit on with you and we we kind of didn't it's maybe maybe let's end on

899
01:37:41,860 --> 01:37:48,100
that i i i want to i want to i want to pick your brain a little bit like purely on the current

900
01:37:48,100 --> 01:37:59,620
nostril development side so um you've been you've been working on hypernode for a little while now it

901
01:37:59,620 --> 01:38:04,180
was an experiment of the of the first cohort and came out of that and i was super excited about it

902
01:38:04,180 --> 01:38:08,660
because i was like okay we're gonna we're gonna bring back the good parts of the old internet in

903
01:38:08,660 --> 01:38:16,660
some way um what are your current thoughts about it and i i think it evolved like the last time you

904
01:38:16,660 --> 01:38:24,020
showed it off just just last week uh there was lots of new thought in there so what's your let's

905
01:38:24,020 --> 01:38:32,980
end on the intention what's your intention for for the project is it's it's it's really twofold it's

906
01:38:32,980 --> 01:38:42,820
it's it's geo cities the just the pure personal expression and then it's micro app development

907
01:38:43,940 --> 01:38:51,620
so you know before we had the web there was hyper card and that was a very easy to use

908
01:38:51,620 --> 01:38:58,580
gooey drag and drop way to make like an app for the mac like mist was originally written as a hyper card

909
01:38:58,580 --> 01:39:08,820
so you can make these interactive applications with very minimal scripting and so you know right now

910
01:39:08,820 --> 01:39:16,820
the way we make software for the web is we're piling a ton of shit on top of each other to to make it

911
01:39:16,820 --> 01:39:23,060
happen and everything's kind of written from scratch right like in some sense it's like the way i i read

912
01:39:23,060 --> 01:39:28,500
it what you were saying is like you'll have the vision for hyper node would be to have predefined

913
01:39:28,500 --> 01:39:34,100
elements that work out of the box just like html forms for example or those those elements right

914
01:39:34,100 --> 01:39:44,580
or hyperlinks yeah um and but that are like highly composable and also customizable and styleable

915
01:39:44,580 --> 01:39:50,820
right did i get this right somehow in some sense yeah yeah i think i think so so yeah it's like it's

916
01:39:50,820 --> 01:40:02,340
basically if you have um it's a good example if you have the intent to make an app uh and you have

917
01:40:02,340 --> 01:40:08,500
you already we already have a win we already gave you a back in for free yeah so you have nostr as your

918
01:40:08,500 --> 01:40:14,980
back end so now what do you want to do with the app well you you have to decide what should the app do

919
01:40:14,980 --> 01:40:22,500
and you also have a user database uh a social graph login everything built in you have these dvms

920
01:40:22,500 --> 01:40:30,420
you can have all these compute built in yeah so what i think we could have is kind of a standardized set

921
01:40:30,420 --> 01:40:38,020
of elements just like you know the the web got you links to link to other hypertext documents

922
01:40:38,020 --> 01:40:47,060
and forms with buttons to post yeah information to a server yeah that was basically what the web and

923
01:40:47,060 --> 01:40:54,820
you could express ebay and google yeah and yahoo and like basically most of the web 1.0 that we know

924
01:40:54,820 --> 01:41:02,340
was you know fairly javascript free and you could express really great apps so if you had elements

925
01:41:02,340 --> 01:41:10,340
that represented like here's a profile here's a zap button you know the things that we already use

926
01:41:10,340 --> 01:41:18,980
nostr for let's make a hypermedia representation of them that you can import into your app so yeah i think

927
01:41:18,980 --> 01:41:26,260
of it as kind of like an easy way to make a nostr app um also and hopefully and this is where it gets

928
01:41:26,260 --> 01:41:33,300
harder and why i think it's going to take some iteration hopefully a way to express an interface

929
01:41:33,940 --> 01:41:41,380
for a novel nip so i have a new thing that i want to add to nostr but there's no clients that support

930
01:41:41,380 --> 01:41:48,020
it yet and so i can express the interface for that as a hypernote and publish that hypernote and now

931
01:41:48,020 --> 01:41:54,260
clients that support hypernote have at least a placeholder ui for it before they want to integrate

932
01:41:54,260 --> 01:42:02,180
it themselves or maybe they never need to or want to um and so in the long run i mean you know i

933
01:42:02,180 --> 01:42:08,500
really want to make an operating system so if this becomes a good way to define applications and i and

934
01:42:08,500 --> 01:42:14,820
the operating system is built around like a personal relay you know then you're making little apps you

935
01:42:14,820 --> 01:42:19,300
know you sit down on your computer you decide what you want to do you pray about it and you build a

936
01:42:19,300 --> 01:42:27,220
little app that does the thing and that's a that would be a good day um you know what we have now

937
01:42:27,780 --> 01:42:36,180
we have so many layers of legacy i mean literally the easiest way to make an app for your phone

938
01:42:36,180 --> 01:42:44,260
is to use this thing called react native yeah which is like a using react which is an abstraction upon

939
01:42:44,260 --> 01:42:50,020
top of javascript and this thing called jsx which is a version it's kind of like the dom but it's not

940
01:42:50,020 --> 01:42:56,100
the dom and then you run a javascript runtime and then that's orchestrating swift ui components

941
01:42:56,100 --> 01:43:01,300
which is all pretty still kind of based on objective c and then the actual operating system is written

942
01:43:01,300 --> 01:43:07,220
in c you know there we have so much so many layers of complexity in our current tech stack and a lot of

943
01:43:07,220 --> 01:43:14,340
that is incidental to it being written by like trillion dollar companies and when when we need

944
01:43:14,340 --> 01:43:20,340
to work in the small we actually can't afford to have that much complexity we can't maintain that much

945
01:43:20,340 --> 01:43:27,940
complexity so i hope that we can find simpler more direct ways to do things and i hope hypernote

946
01:43:27,940 --> 01:43:35,060
could be a part a part of that and also maybe it will just be like a resurrection of adobe flash

947
01:43:37,140 --> 01:43:43,300
oh my lord i remember these days let's let's maybe not bring everything back let's be selective

948
01:43:46,020 --> 01:43:51,700
but yeah no i'm i'm super excited about it i i like where where stuff is going just in general i i feel

949
01:43:51,700 --> 01:43:57,700
a lot of the things are currently converging i think the building blocks that we already have are

950
01:43:57,700 --> 01:44:03,700
are being understood by more and more people so that has me uh quite optimistic as well and i mean

951
01:44:03,700 --> 01:44:10,820
the the um you know the llms in particular like it's what's so amazing to me is that you can actually

952
01:44:11,780 --> 01:44:16,980
you know like today like i i did nothing else for the last couple days now it's just like you can just

953
01:44:18,180 --> 01:44:26,660
prompt the thing to hey use pablo's ndk use like the new vertex dvm that came out last like last week to

954
01:44:26,660 --> 01:44:32,580
calculate a web of trust core and so on and it will grab all the info from github and docs and

955
01:44:32,580 --> 01:44:39,060
whatever and it will throw it together and it will work so that sure as hell is gonna accelerate things

956
01:44:39,060 --> 01:44:46,340
as well like accelerate um you know things on our side for building freedom tech for sure as well and

957
01:44:46,340 --> 01:44:51,780
i appreciate this podcast this that this attempt to share some of this wisdom and so that we don't

958
01:44:51,780 --> 01:44:57,220
have to make the same mistakes we'll have to land on wisdom first uh sure that would be nice but

959
01:44:57,780 --> 01:44:59,220
vendors can be choosers

960
01:45:03,540 --> 01:45:10,820
no but it's like that that's why like i i really appreciate the conversation because i i knew that

961
01:45:10,820 --> 01:45:17,780
you were going through the early days of the internet very very closely like you were very close to all of

962
01:45:17,780 --> 01:45:24,420
that it's very apparent by just you know like the listening to you speak and and watching what you

963
01:45:24,420 --> 01:45:31,860
put out and so on and i i feel like our kind of um generation and the people like even older than us

964
01:45:31,860 --> 01:45:39,060
we're we aren't dead old yet but i think we learned a lot by living through the early iterations of the

965
01:45:39,060 --> 01:45:44,500
internet yeah and and sawing the platforms rise and fall and and and again like everyone everyone has the

966
01:45:44,500 --> 01:45:48,740
same story like it's it's it's it's not the first knowledge system that you use you know like it's

967
01:45:48,740 --> 01:45:57,540
probably the tenth and yeah and so i hope that we can explain this properly and like pass this on to

968
01:45:58,260 --> 01:46:03,460
the young guns the early 20 somethings that are building this stuff if i could be so bold as to

969
01:46:04,020 --> 01:46:09,380
give some assigned reading for something i wrote back when i was at the verge you know google glass came

970
01:46:09,380 --> 01:46:15,460
out it really creeped people yeah they called them the glass holes the glass holes yeah and so i

971
01:46:16,580 --> 01:46:21,860
always loved the idea of wearable computing because i grew up reading wired magazine which would profile

972
01:46:21,860 --> 01:46:29,140
like the mit wearable compute lab and stuff and so i ended up writing a piece for the verge about um

973
01:46:29,140 --> 01:46:33,300
wearable computing and the history of wearable computing and it was this idea of

974
01:46:33,300 --> 01:46:43,860
hyper personal compute that we really lost track of and we can't we're we we at least are smart enough

975
01:46:43,860 --> 01:46:50,820
that we don't trust facebook and google with things so we actually can't allow computers to reach this

976
01:46:50,820 --> 01:46:58,020
like level of to even enter up basically yeah we can't use computers how they were used in the personal

977
01:46:58,020 --> 01:47:06,580
computer era because we're so dependent on these really scary foreign aggressive antagonistic

978
01:47:06,900 --> 01:47:12,660
forces yeah we'll fix that too blinded compute will fix that like serial knowledge compute will fix that

979
01:47:12,660 --> 01:47:16,980
i talked with kelly about this that's that's gonna that's gonna be a thing as well and like

980
01:47:17,540 --> 01:47:23,780
that already like it already works not even like in theory it really already works and and so you can do any compute

981
01:47:23,780 --> 01:47:29,780
in a blinded manner where you then then you don't have to trust facebook or google there's nothing they

982
01:47:29,780 --> 01:47:36,820
can gleam from it so it's gonna lead to i think very pure marketplaces of compute and also of storage

983
01:47:36,820 --> 01:47:40,580
and so on and well i think we'll see this integrated in nostril with dbms and all the other things but

984
01:47:40,580 --> 01:47:46,660
it's like it's still a little bit of prompting to do prompting and praying prompting and praying

985
01:47:46,660 --> 01:47:52,420
what we'll have to do to bring all that about absolutely all right that was lovely i'll give

986
01:47:52,420 --> 01:48:00,100
you a hug and then we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna see if we can make it out alive out of this

987
01:48:00,100 --> 01:48:08,260
park all right thanks so much for that that was fantastic so i'll do one more snap before we turn

988
01:48:08,260 --> 01:48:13,860
it off just to make sure in case i i don't know i want to cut something in the middle that's still

989
01:48:13,860 --> 01:48:17,620
beeping okay let's turn it off