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All right, and we're live, not live, but we're recording.

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And we're live.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, that works.

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Perfect. That should all work.

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And you can see here the, you know, recording, recording.

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It records on device as well.

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So there is backups, but I don't want to touch the backups.

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I don't want to touch the files.

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And yeah, very soon,

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hashtree, it's going to be hashtree enabled very soon.

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Yeah.

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So yeah, Marty, talk to me about hashtree.

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Let's start with that.

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How did you, like, what made you, what made you build out hashtree?

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Personnel annoyances with GitHub.

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I wanted decentralized Git when looking into alternatives.

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But I wasn't satisfied with anything.

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I wanted something really simple that is no-sternative.

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So I built something that's compatible with Blossom servers.

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And pure Blossom servers weren't enough because they actually are.

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You can use it in my hashtree tools.

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You can push your Git repository onto your Blossom servers.

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But why did you need the hashtree layer, basically?

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Why did you need to add that for the Git use case?

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Because I understand it when it's really big files.

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But for the Git use case, what made you come up with hashtree

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and implemented.

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So hashtree does basically does directories and file chunking

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on top of Blossom.

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So I guess for the Git use the directorating would be the what we need.

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So basically just upload your working directory with the dot Git folder.

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So the hashtree.

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That main idea is similar to the inside idea.

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Inside had paths.

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We can just walk here and just do two or three rounds or something.

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Because the issue, of course, I mean,

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I gather your big fan of content addressing.

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But the issue with content addressing is, of course,

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that you lose the file system structure.

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So you need additional metadata to figure out the file name and the folder name and everything.

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And put it back together.

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Let's work here.

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That's a longer, nicer path.

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No, I do have all that hashtree's like a proper file system.

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It's like a light version, most are compatible,

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most are native version of IPFS, much simpler though.

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Yeah.

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But if pure Blossom doesn't have that basically, right?

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Like that's what was missing.

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Yeah, so I have directories and file chunking and encryption.

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Encrypted by default.

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You can opt out if you want, but.

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I use like content hash key encryption, similar to free net,

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which was a system back in the day.

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So same file always produces the same software text.

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So there's that deduplication.

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And it's also very helpful for Blossom server maintainers,

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when it takes away the moderation liability.

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Oh, yeah, yeah.

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Because you don't even know and can't know what you're hosting.

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Yes, so that's important if you ever want to.

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You know, like offer your hard disk as a service basically

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and just the new store, just encrypted blobs.

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Yeah, and have like if someone comes knocking,

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you can, yeah, we've cryptographic assurance to say

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that you don't have, you don't know what's hosted on your machine.

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Yes, and when you ask stop from your peers,

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also they don't see what's your request thing.

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In addition to Blossom, I have like a web RTC mesh

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that works in browsers and servers alike.

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So they can connect to each other actually.

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You don't need domain names, or as a cell certificate,

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or IP addresses, or servers, or anything, unlike Blossom.

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So it complements it pretty nicely.

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So when you just ask your peers for data by its hash,

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if they don't have it, they can forward the request,

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similarly to how free net works with the hopes to live

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so it could start with, I think it starts with 15 hopes to live.

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But it's kind of probabilistic.

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So it's sometimes 15, sometimes 14.

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So you can't really tell where the request originates.

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So it gives layer of privacy.

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Yeah, I see.

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And I noticed you use it for your development now, right?

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Like the GitHub replacement you built,

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you actually use it for Irish development?

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Yes, yes, I do.

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It's really good for agents.

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You don't need to set up GitHub API tokens or anything.

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That was, I guess, that was my main annoyance,

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and the reason why I wanted decentralized Git now, not tomorrow.

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Yeah, I think you're probably like the 15th person now

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that I talked to in the last two weeks,

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that build a GitHub alternative.

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Every one seems to be fed up with GitHub.

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And I mean, to be fair, it's only downhill from there,

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ever since Microsoft took over.

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I mean, they have less than 90% uptime now, I think,

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and just everything's terrible.

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It's going to get worse.

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So it's about time we have a promising and working GitHub alternative.

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So all your projects use your system based on Hashtree,

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like you have Git remotes that use Hashtree for storage, right?

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Yeah.

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And you use GitHub just as a backup, right?

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Yes, yes.

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Yeah, you should go check it out.

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Hashtree.cc, you can find the install install instructions there.

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So basically, you just help install CUH3 and Git remote H3 helper.

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So you can just set up an HDH3 remote for your Git repo

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and just push there.

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It's really simple.

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You should try it out.

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And you basically just need a blossom server.

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And actually, I'm running one on a cloud flare,

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which works really well, and only accepts encrypted content.

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Awesome, awesome.

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And what's still on the roadmap for the Hashtree and GitHub project?

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I think it's pretty much there.

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I have the web interface, Git.iris.2.

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You can go check it out.

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It looks pretty much like GitHub with us.

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It supports NIP 34,

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the issues and pull requests and stuff.

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And you mentioned you're gonna,

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there was Justin's main criticism.

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We don't have a star.

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We don't have the GitHub stars.

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It was a like, I have likes.

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So you got a feature request to change it.

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Don't change it to stars.

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That's what we want.

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Yeah, awesome.

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I mean, we played around with it, of course.

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And you can do the board.

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Even fork reports really easy in the browser,

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like in 10 milliseconds or so.

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Yeah, I think I forked the Irish audio of what it was.

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Yeah.

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Talk to me more about all the Irish projects

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that you're going on right now.

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You're basically rebuilding Spotify,

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you're rebuilding YouTube.

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As a one-man machine, which some agents.

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It's really easy to spin up these demos,

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but it's too much to maintain.

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I'm here on Monday, Iraq.

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So we're an engineering hoping to plant the seed

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and get more people interested in it.

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I hope it's a good idea that catches on.

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I think it is an excellent idea.

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I mean, there's other people trying

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to build YouTube replacements and so on.

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Obviously, we're fighting massive network impacts,

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but I think we can build it out in a way

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that it's just kind of very much like,

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you know, people self-host all kinds of things.

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And you just self-host an instance

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where you have your music.

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And you know, it's not going to go away.

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I think what a lot of people have issue

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with the platforms like YouTube is a great example.

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I have playlists of YouTube videos that I really liked

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and I built them up over like many, many years.

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And if I open them now, half the videos are gone.

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Yes, true.

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And I think, you know, like for music and so on,

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that's even more devastating.

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It's like if you find an artist on some platform

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and you just save it and like three years later,

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it's gone for some reason.

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And I think just out of that,

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people will probably set up,

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or hopefully set up their own instances.

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And if something is readily available and easy to set up,

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and you don't even necessarily need to completely self-host

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in terms of running all of the infrastructure yourself,

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I think that's one of the nostril killer features

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is that you can use someone else's resume,

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you can use someone else's blossom server.

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Yeah, and still build your own little world, basically.

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Yeah, and actually I have something called Irish Browser,

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which can load these,

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it can basically load websites and applications

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from Hashtree URLs in a content-addressed way.

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So that's how you bypass the web hosting part.

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So yeah, awesome.

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The same idea, like inside, right?

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Kind of similar, yeah.

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So that's why we need content addressing

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to keep the stuff online and not have five-year old links

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break.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I mean, that's the super power

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that content addressing gives you

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that where the content lives physically doesn't matter.

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Yes, yes.

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And in the best case, it lives in multiple places at once.

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Yeah, so in Hashtree, your peers also store some of the data.

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And you can store your friends data, your follow list on,

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extended social graph.

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Talk to me a little bit about the peer-to-peer aspect,

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because I heard you talking a while ago

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about kind of on the nostracite, we obviously

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have relays, but relays have their limits.

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And I think you like the idea of other people

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like this idea as well.

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I think Litor and there's some other people

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that really like the peer-to-peer idea on the nostracite,

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like not necessarily requiring a relay

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to transfer information.

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And the reason why I'm asking is because this cohort

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is focused on mesh networking and just hardware

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and mesh networks basically.

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And that's obviously, we have a lot of direct data transfer

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between peers.

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And you mentioned before already that you

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have protocols in place so that direct transfer is possible.

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How are you thinking about this?

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Yeah.

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So in addition to Blossom, I have the WebRTC adapter.

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It uses nostracilays to find peers

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and to do the WebRTC establishment part.

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But when you have some a few WebRTC peers,

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also does the signaling without needing

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nostracilays anymore.

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And the native apps are a bit better with this day.

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When you have a few IPs stored, you

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can just use them and not need a relay domain name source

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or certificates or anything.

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And you can even think like local first over Wi-Fi or something.

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Do you think that's where it's going?

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Or do you hope that's where it's going?

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Or will we still have relays for a while?

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Or will relays just specialize?

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I think we'll continue to have relays.

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And personally, I still publish.

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Well, I have the GitHub myself and my products

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pretty much.

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00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,680
So what you still need to publish to the web browsers

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and the legacy structures.

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So I use direct CloudFlare publish for that.

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Yeah, otherwise you'll just be alone.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And the sad reality is that in web hosting,

246
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you basically need a CD.

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And if you want to host a popular website,

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that's why it goes down with DDoS attacks or demand

249
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or something.

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But the only solution to that is to move,

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to peer-to-peer stuff like the Irish browser

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I'm developing.

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And I hope this content addressing

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and NOS to publish, subscribe, would move closer

255
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to the operating system and then over time.

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I mean, the main idea that a lot of people have

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is that if you have what's discussed in this cohort

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in the first week as well, if you have a home node

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or even an on-device relay and all those kind of things,

260
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,160
we'll have lots of caching, so to speak,

261
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,920
that's closer to you.

262
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,480
And you'll just have layers of caches

263
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,160
just by having multiple relays and multiple instances

264
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,360
of the same data closer to you physically, basically.

265
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:11,760
Do you think that this will be enough to in the long run,

266
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:13,720
not necessarily replace CloudFlare,

267
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:20,080
but have similar guarantees, in some sense?

268
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,120
Yes, I think so.

269
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,040
Maybe DNS also works a bit like this,

270
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,400
so you have a, but DNS is hierarchical system,

271
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,480
so we don't want that, but DNS has levels of caching,

272
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,600
which I guess work pretty fine.

273
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,000
Yeah, we'll try to build out no DNS,

274
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,040
so that's kind of a similar idea to DNS,

275
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,480
but without the global view.

276
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,120
Yeah, without the global source of cool.

277
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,120
Yeah, I don't necessarily believe in globally unique names.

278
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,680
I think we could have more like a drop-down menu,

279
00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:03,200
like a search, drop-down search that we have on social media,

280
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:04,440
where you're just typing something in.

281
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,440
Yeah, absolutely.

282
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,040
It points to some identity in your social graph.

283
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,480
So what you're saying is you can't have all three properties

284
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,040
of Sukus trying to, because I'm with you.

285
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:19,160
I'm with you.

286
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,520
I've been harping on about this for a long time,

287
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,200
but the idea is then, if you try to look up a name,

288
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,200
my go-to example is always like Pablo,

289
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:28,000
who is Pablo for me?

290
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,000
There's many Pablo's, and in my web of trust,

291
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,280
I know from my perspective it should be clear

292
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,920
which endpub I'm talking about when I say Pablo.

293
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:38,760
Yes.

294
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,600
And from someone else, it's a very different Pablo.

295
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,680
And so I think that's the only way how you can solve it, basically.

296
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,960
Which is, of course, you'll never have a precise answer.

297
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,600
And I think a lot of people, especially a lot of computer science people,

298
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:56,520
they don't like that.

299
00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,440
They don't like the messy.

300
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,440
They would like to have an exact solution, an exact deterministic solution.

301
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,320
Yeah, it requires a different way of thinking

302
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:12,320
of sometimes confuses people when you change these paradigms.

303
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:17,440
Also it confuses the LLMs, and they try to be always pushed, pushed to GitHub

304
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,840
or use some blockchain, Ethereum solution or something.

305
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,080
Yes.

306
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:23,920
Yeah.

307
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,200
I think it was you that mentioned yesterday that we have this opportunity now

308
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,160
to, like one of the reasons why you're working on this stuff,

309
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:37,080
is to steer the LLMs at the future of technology

310
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,880
into a freedom-tech direction, right?

311
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,640
Like we have this window of opportunity where it's like,

312
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:47,000
if all of us would stop working on that, then kind of, you know,

313
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,280
like stripe and cloud flare and GitHub would win by default, basically,

314
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:51,720
because that's all the LLMs now.

315
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:52,640
Yeah, yeah.

316
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,640
I think it's coding is going to be done by AI agents pretty soon,

317
00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:58,760
like in a few years.

318
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,040
I don't think we're going to need too much human involvement.

319
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:08,400
So now I feel like we have this, yes, not a window of opportunity.

320
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,000
How much do you still code by hand?

321
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,080
How much track coding do you still do?

322
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:12,920
Basically zero.

323
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:13,440
Yeah, there you go.

324
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,800
We are already there, like, yeah.

325
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,840
But I still have to guide the process.

326
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:19,160
Yeah, absolutely.

327
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,080
I mean, I think human taste and human judgment

328
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,520
won't go away for a long while.

329
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,800
But I think just developing, I mean, to me,

330
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,600
it seems like the best people, in some sense,

331
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,720
they are leaning into the tools, the hardest,

332
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,480
and know how to use them.

333
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:43,360
And it's all about kind of moving some levels up in the abstraction layer

334
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,320
and really steering and guiding the process and the project, as you say.

335
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,560
But you're actually not riding code line by line.

336
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,240
No, that's kind of a waste of time by now, in some sense.

337
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:53,760
Yes.

338
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,760
So what's your current setup?

339
00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:02,360
But when did you, like, talk me through your AI progression over the last,

340
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,520
I guess, like, 18 months or two years or so.

341
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:10,480
I think maybe even in the early days of Noster, like, 2022,

342
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,320
well, it's for me, it was the early days of Noster when I started.

343
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,720
Even then, I think you're very early.

344
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,480
Chat GPT.

345
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,280
Not only it's a Bitcoin, but also to Noster.

346
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,720
So we used to copy and paste code to the chat GPT prompt.

347
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,080
But did you use tap completion as well?

348
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:31,960
Yes, co-pilot, yeah.

349
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:37,920
But I think the major change was last year, 2025, end of November,

350
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,440
when Claude Opus something came out.

351
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:46,560
And it was felt like the first actually capable agent, according to a tool,

352
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:52,960
which took the human out of the loop for many kinds of things.

353
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,120
That's when I started working on hash tree.

354
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:59,080
It's an idea that I've had for a long time, but all in all,

355
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,440
I'm able to make it happen with agenting tools.

356
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,120
Yeah, yeah, Justin mentioned that as well in terms of,

357
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,000
I mean, he moved on from building a browser,

358
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:14,680
but he talked to the guy who built Ladybird, the alternative browser implementation.

359
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:21,720
And he mentioned that, like, pre-proper agentic coding,

360
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,520
it wasn't clear whether they were going to make it,

361
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,840
and they would be able to actually succeed with the project.

362
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,440
And now it's like, no question.

363
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,480
Now it's like, Chris, clear, they're going to make it.

364
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,360
And it sounds like for you and your project, that's similar,

365
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:43,560
where you can build way more easily, way faster with the agentic tools.

366
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:49,400
Yes, yes, it's like 10 or 100 text, my capabilities.

367
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,760
How do you think this is going to end in some sense?

368
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,640
I mean, the next set of models is just around the corner.

369
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,320
We'll have more tool integration, more harnesses, like OpenClone,

370
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,560
all those kind of things, like, everyone is working on that.

371
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:06,560
Basically, there's literally trillions of dollars being thrown at the problem.

372
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,280
Yeah, I guess we're going to have more open-cloth features

373
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:14,360
in the mainstream codex and the cloud stuff,

374
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:19,200
like memory, memory, and like better, longer-running agentic tools,

375
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,560
and scheduling, and so on.

376
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,120
And what have we?

377
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,000
Are you worried from a kind of big picture,

378
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,880
a macro perspective in terms of AI is going to take everyone's job?

379
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,480
And you know, if you don't have bit kind of something,

380
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:34,720
then you'll just be wrecked.

381
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:35,880
Yes, I'm a bit worried.

382
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,240
I used to be really optimistic about everything,

383
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,240
and with, like, a Bitcoin optimist.

384
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:44,080
You're not anymore.

385
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,040
Bitcoin is hope.

386
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:50,600
I guess it still is, but AI stuff can be a bit scary.

387
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:55,960
Where, how do we actually compete against the machine itself?

388
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,120
What economic value can humans provide?

389
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,800
I mean, I used to say a couple of years ago,

390
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,240
Bitcoin is singularity insurance,

391
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,520
because it's the one thing that machines actually can't make more of.

392
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,720
So just hold on to your Bitcoin.

393
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,120
That's a good point, still.

394
00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:16,600
But yeah, I mean, it's, in some sense, money is a thing between humans.

395
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,360
So I'm actually not too worried.

396
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:25,800
It's just about, like, as long as you're still able to provide value to society

397
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,000
in whatever way, shape, or form, you should be able to make money.

398
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:34,880
But it's kind of ironic that, you know,

399
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:41,000
the white-collar people are going to be made obsolete first.

400
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,640
Everyone who went to university, especially if you study computer science,

401
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,080
you know, you're in danger, and if you're a blue-collar plumber or whatever,

402
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,920
you're not as much in danger right now.

403
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,160
And until the robots come.

404
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,560
Exactly.

405
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,280
But that's still a little bit out.

406
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:57,320
Yeah.

407
00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,120
You study computer science as well, right?

408
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:01,200
Like, you have a computer science background.

409
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,560
Yeah, yeah, I didn't study too much.

410
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,880
I just went to the programming courses, which I found interesting.

411
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,000
I just wanted to get a job as soon as possible,

412
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,800
and that's what I did, basically.

413
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,680
Yeah, you discovered Bitcoin, pre-bidcoin being a thing,

414
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,160
and being able to work on Bitcoin in any meaningful way, right?

415
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:20,000
Yeah, yeah.

416
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:25,120
And actually, I made my first last commit to Bitcoin, I think, in early 2010.

417
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:29,760
That's when, around when I got my first full-time job and had less time, unfortunately.

418
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:30,560
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

419
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,160
Bitcoin was not done.

420
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,120
Yeah, I heard that you talked to Knud about that.

421
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:39,200
I'm not going to grill you about the early days, but how come you jumped into

422
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:40,800
Noster so early as well?

423
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,320
Was it just kind of...

424
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:48,000
Because I know you wanted to build something like Noster yourself as well, right?

425
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,880
Yeah, I had actually built something on a different stack.

426
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:53,920
What was the stack?

427
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,040
It was gone.

428
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:55,960
Gone.js.

429
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,520
Gone.js.

430
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:58,360
And now it's gone?

431
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,040
Doesn't exist anymore, I assume.

432
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,040
I think it does exist as a code library.

433
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,040
Okay.

434
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:15,880
But my system was very similar, like a social network based on public keys.

435
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,280
So that's...

436
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:23,000
But I had worked on it for like two, three years by the late 2022.

437
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:28,400
And I was ready to move on, like, get a real job because it wasn't like...

438
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,360
Yeah, it wasn't an attraction, yeah.

439
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:32,480
But that's when Noster happened, I guess.

440
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,480
Well, Jack Dorsey joined Noster and it became popular.

441
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:43,280
And I got excited about it, the community around it and everything.

442
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:48,880
And then I was able to port Iris onto Noster very quickly because of that.

443
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,600
So Iris was the thing you built, pre-noster, that was the name?

444
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:53,600
Yes.

445
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,120
It's a rainbow, right?

446
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,480
A variety of few points and a variety of identities.

447
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,800
Yeah, Iris means apparently rainbow in ancient Greek.

448
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:09,160
And yes, that symbolizes the plurality of voices and

449
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,800
Iris of the eye, it's named after rainbow's colors.

450
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:21,280
So you understood intuitively kind of pre-noster already that there's not going to be a global.

451
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:22,480
Not going to be global.

452
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:23,600
There is no global.

453
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,800
Yeah, that's true.

454
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,200
Yeah, I've had this social graph idea for a long time.

455
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:44,200
I think it's the only proper solution to fighting spam and other unwanted content because proof of work is not going to make it tinder normal users more than spammers.

456
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:50,520
Yeah, I think a combination of both is, like there are some things where proof of work is useful, I guess.

457
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:56,000
But for most regular interactions, I agree, you have to rely on Web of Trust mostly.

458
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,600
Are you happy with kind of the current state of Noster?

459
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,600
No, I'm not happy.

460
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:03,600
Like...

461
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,000
No, not even a little bit in terms of...

462
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,800
It's actually something that you wanted to have that actually caught on a little bit.

463
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:13,800
Yeah.

464
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,200
It's a good thing, right?

465
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,800
Let's do one more round and then we'll go down to the sea if that's okay.

466
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:28,800
Yeah, Noster is still great and we need public key-based identities, not domain-based.

467
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,800
Yes, so it's the right thing to do, but we could always do better.

468
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,800
So what made you say instantly you're unhappy?

469
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,800
What's broken?

470
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,800
Or what could be better?

471
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,800
Or what are people misunderstanding, maybe?

472
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:53,800
The stuff we build should solve problems for people, and I don't think Noster as a public medium is solving problems to most people.

473
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,800
Most people are fine with posting on X or something.

474
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:07,800
Like for public discussions, you want to go to the largest network, largest audience.

475
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,800
So I think we might need to think other uses for Noster.

476
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:21,800
I've been saying private chats, private groups could be something that actually doesn't depend on the network effect.

477
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:34,800
And that's where Noster can actually solve problems and be much easier to deploy and use than something centralized where you need to register, create accounts and phone numbers and email addresses and all that.

478
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,800
We can be like signal, but better.

479
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:48,800
Jonathan mentioned something similar yesterday, he mentioned that MLS slash marmor, slash white noise is the most important project on Noster right now.

480
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,800
He thinks, would you agree with that or what's your thoughts on MLS?

481
00:25:53,800 --> 00:26:02,800
Well, definitely, like forward secrecy, message history, secrecy and all that, we need on Noster and we don't tab it properly.

482
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:10,800
Well, maybe we do. So there's MLS and there's also been developing Noster double ratchet for a while.

483
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:17,800
Yeah, I'm aware, which is signals algorithm.

484
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,800
What's the status of this project right now?

485
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,800
There was a while ago when you jumped into that, right?

486
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:29,800
Yeah, so double ratchet's worked really well between two devices for a long time.

487
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:34,800
Established a session between two devices works really well.

488
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:44,800
But what when you want multiple devices per user, what if you want to conduct people out of the blue over Noster, how to make that reliable?

489
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,800
Send the message to all their devices.

490
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,800
And then you want to have chat groups.

491
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,800
That's when the complexity grows.

492
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,800
I've been working on this stuff.

493
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,800
It's getting to a point where it might be actually quite usable soon.

494
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,800
We just tested, you could go to chat.iris.to.

495
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,800
We were just testing it yesterday.

496
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:15,800
I created, I invited everyone in our table by scanning a QR code and it worked perfectly.

497
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,800
You can have groups and secure private messaging on Noster.

498
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,800
How big can the groups get?

499
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,800
That's a good question.

500
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,800
I guess similar limits are signal, I imagine.

501
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:35,800
So you need to establish sessions with each participant separately and send them your group key.

502
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,800
You can use the same group key to encrypt all of them.

503
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,800
So all your messages in the group will pirate ship.

504
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:42,800
That's the pirate ship.

505
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,800
You're going to miss that unfortunately.

506
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:50,800
But it's tradition that after the last demo day at Summer and Engineering, we go on the pirate ship.

507
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,800
So I just wanted you to see it.

508
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:53,800
That's cool.

509
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,800
That's the ship that discovered Manera.

510
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,800
It's a replica, like original sized replica of the ship.

511
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,800
It's awesome.

512
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,800
It's well worth checking it out.

513
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,800
And you'll see dolphins and whales and people throwing up because it's actually quite rocky.

514
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:16,800
So theoretically, MLS scales to larger groups and double ratchet.

515
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,800
But as far as I understand, it also requires...

516
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,800
It has much more strict consensus requirements.

517
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,800
So everyone in the group needs to be on the same page.

518
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:35,800
And that might be a bit difficult on Noster with different relay sets and more decentralization.

519
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,800
So that's something...

520
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,800
I guess that's what's being keeping me on double ratchet, moving to MLS.

521
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,800
I think that's what Jesus landed on as well in his kind of...

522
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,800
He played around with it quite a bit.

523
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,800
And his kind of quote-unquote criticism or one of the issues that we might run into long-term.

524
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:54,800
Yeah.

525
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,800
But just...

526
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,800
I appreciate their work very much.

527
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,800
Secure messaging on Noster is something we need in one way or another or whatever.

528
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:03,800
In the end, it also...

529
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,800
It just kind of has to work in practice.

530
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,800
And it probably...

531
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,800
I talked about this with Pablo quite a bit.

532
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,800
Once you have a certain group size,

533
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,800
it doesn't make sense to...

534
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,800
You're not going to have any privacy.

535
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,800
If it's thousands of people, you don't have three spooks in there, at least.

536
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,800
It's just screencast everything to whatever agencies they work for.

537
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,800
Or take screenshots and leak it.

538
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,800
So it's kind of...

539
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,800
I don't know.

540
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,800
Perfect encryption, perfect forward secrecy, all those kinds of things.

541
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:46,800
It only matters if you can trust that the group participants are honest, basically, in some sense.

542
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:47,800
Yes, yes.

543
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,800
You want to take a picture?

544
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:50,800
Yes, sure.

545
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:51,800
It's a very full money around.

546
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:52,800
It's very famous.

547
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:53,800
Flowers on CDs.

548
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:56,800
For the folks at home.

549
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:57,800
Yeah, no.

550
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,800
It's an audio-only thing that we're doing by design.

551
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,800
I'm not a fan of video content.

552
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,800
I think I will generate a movie from this.

553
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:09,800
Yeah, that's the goal.

554
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,800
That's the goal.

555
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,800
I didn't dig into that yet.

556
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,800
And now, for a little bit, it's going to be loud.

557
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:16,800
But the goal is...

558
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,800
We're going to cross over.

559
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,800
And then we're going to drop down here.

560
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,800
I think that's the easiest one.

561
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:24,800
And then we can...

562
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,800
Hopefully we'll have a little bit of silence at last car noises.

563
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:29,800
Directly at the sea.

564
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,800
And then we can walk all the way to the yellow fork.

565
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,800
That's kind of the goal.

566
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,800
So you'll have to scream for a little bit.

567
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,800
Are you sure you're still recording?

568
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:40,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

569
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:41,800
Can you ever know?

570
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:42,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

571
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:43,800
No, no, no.

572
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,800
It's so far, no single recording has failed.

573
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:46,800
All right.

574
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,800
And I think I mentioned it briefly yesterday.

575
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,800
So far, only one conversation has failed.

576
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,800
It was with Justin when we got really, really drunk.

577
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:58,800
Oh, yeah.

578
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,800
And he was completely unreleasable.

579
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,800
So we got drunk on beer.

580
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,800
And then on cheeshas.

581
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,800
So that's what happened.

582
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:10,800
That was a really bad idea.

583
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,800
So we're not going to do it again.

584
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,800
But up to now everything, like I don't want to jinx it,

585
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,800
but up to now everything worked perfectly

586
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,800
with the recordings always.

587
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:20,800
Right.

588
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,800
So yeah, you have like five or six projects cooking now.

589
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,800
Are you still actively working on Irish, the main client right now?

590
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,800
Not super actively.

591
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,800
After a long break, I did some pull requests again.

592
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,800
I guess Irish is kind of nice sometimes.

593
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,800
So it has the social graph, which works pretty well.

594
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,800
I think maybe Snort has those is using my social graph library

595
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,800
or something that Kiran's doing.

596
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,800
I don't know, ZapStream maybe.

597
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,800
So it's pretty nice because sometimes people complain about

598
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,800
this NSFW spam.

599
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,800
But you don't get that basically in Irish.

600
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,800
You might miss new users who are not in the social graph as well.

601
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:08,800
So it's a trade-off.

602
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:09,800
But I like it.

603
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,800
I don't need to see everyone's post.

604
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,800
And there's like, oh, absolutely.

605
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,800
I've got users in my default social graph.

606
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,800
I mean, the default that's loaded on Irish.

607
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:19,800
Yeah.

608
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:20,800
Could be improved though, but.

609
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,800
Did you look into the other web of trash solutions,

610
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:31,800
like Relator running on Context VM and Vertex by picked the social graph guy?

611
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,800
No, I haven't looked into it.

612
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,800
I guess Relayside filtering can be fine if you only use those relays.

613
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,800
But then you need to trust the Relay operator.

614
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,800
So that's why I wanted to do it on the client side even in the browser.

615
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:46,800
Yeah, I see.

616
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,800
But it's good to see all those things popping up.

617
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,800
I think it's the right solution to all that stuff.

618
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,800
So your first contact with Noster was then basically

619
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,800
porting the existing Irish to Noster, is that right?

620
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:01,800
Yes.

621
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:07,800
Talk to me a little bit about your Noster development journey.

622
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,800
Actually, we had, I must confess, I have a synth.

623
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,800
I have a shit coin.

624
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:13,800
I'm aware.

625
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:14,800
I'm aware.

626
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:15,800
I did my homework.

627
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:16,800
Yeah.

628
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,800
We did like a social, something called social nouns.

629
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,800
Nouns is the Ethereum DAO.

630
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,800
I don't know, 50 million in their treasury or some very large amount.

631
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,800
So it was like algorithmically generated.

632
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,800
Yeah, the randomly mined avatar, basically, and auctioned them, right?

633
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:34,800
Yeah, I'm auctioned them.

634
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,800
And every NFT would be a boat.

635
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,800
And you did the finished version of that, right?

636
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,800
Yeah, like finished culture with finished alcohol products, whatever.

637
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:43,800
That's okay.

638
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,800
Like you can, you know, everyone, everyone, every sinner has a past.

639
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,800
No, how does it go?

640
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,800
Every saint has a past, every sinner, a future.

641
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,800
That was around the time when I was very desperate.

642
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,800
About the quit.

643
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:58,800
Iris.

644
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,800
This was my last effort to write.

645
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:01,800
Last hooray?

646
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:02,800
To try to make it work?

647
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:03,800
Yeah.

648
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:04,800
Yeah.

649
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,800
But it didn't really get interaction either.

650
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,800
Maybe we were not scummy enough or something.

651
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,800
We just shot it now when I returned the funds to the buyers.

652
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,800
But when I made Iris most of the client, it still had Ethereum login.

653
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,800
Oh, I didn't know that.

654
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:21,800
Okay.

655
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,800
People were like, what the fuck is this?

656
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,800
So that was the first friction point to get rid of.

657
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:29,800
Yeah.

658
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,800
I wasn't actually too active in the Bitcoin scene before Noster for a long while.

659
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,800
I wasn't familiar with the Maxi stuff and all that very much.

660
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,800
So it was an interesting cultural experience.

661
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,800
But in fact, I liked it.

662
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:53,800
I found that, well, the Bitcoin Maxi is to be in many ways more admirable people than some other.

663
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:55,800
Groups.

664
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,800
I think they have their reason, right?

665
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,800
I think Jonathan mentioned that as well.

666
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,800
He had, you know, not one gap year, but like seven gap years.

667
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,800
He left the space for seven years.

668
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:08,800
Yes.

669
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,800
And now returned with FIPs, basically.

670
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:11,800
Yes.

671
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:18,800
And I think it's super interesting to have people like you, you know, like very active in the early days.

672
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,800
You manage the forums.

673
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,800
You ran Bitcoin org for a while, right?

674
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:23,800
Yes.

675
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,800
And just basically running maybe like the third Bitcoin node or something.

676
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:27,800
Yeah.

677
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:28,800
And exchange.com.

678
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:29,800
Yeah.

679
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,800
Where I sold over the 30,000 bitcoins.

680
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:32,800
Yeah, there you go.

681
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:40,800
And then for, you know, like life reasons, you just, you know, you moved on to other things.

682
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,800
Yes.

683
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:51,800
And I think in your guys' absence, you know, lots of Bitcoin maximalists were minted just because the shit-coining was so obscene.

684
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,800
Of the, how should I put it?

685
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:02,800
The understanding of Bitcoin was so shallow that this counter movement formed of people just like being really extreme about everything.

686
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,800
And I think, but I think it's fair.

687
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:11,800
It's like once you understand proof of work and once you understand kind of the reality of monetary competition and liquidity competition,

688
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,800
you'll realize it's kind of a winner takes all environment.

689
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,800
And we see this now, like Bitcoin is the only proof of work chain that matters, right?

690
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,800
Like nothing else exists.

691
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,800
And how these all hangs together.

692
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,800
And kind of, if you build a new system, I really appreciate it.

693
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:33,800
You mentioning that on, on, on Knewt Show, it's, you realized early on, you were in, like pre-noster, you were already interested in building a,

694
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,800
in building a social network thing running on public infrastructure, basically.

695
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,800
And you realized that you don't need a blockchain for that.

696
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:41,800
Yes.

697
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,800
So you weigh ahead of the curve because all the web, three people and so on.

698
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,800
Like there's lots of people that, that have similar ideas, but they all launched their own shit coin.

699
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:50,800
Yes.

700
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,800
And that's just, the Bitcoin maximalists will, will tell you that that's completely unnecessary.

701
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:56,800
Yeah.

702
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:02,800
I think even if they had some good ideas, the economic structure takes them to the wrong direction immediately.

703
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,800
Oh, absolutely. Like the incentives are completely messed up and you just have a money printer.

704
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,800
And you just, you want to, once you have a money printer, you're going to scam even harder.

705
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:11,800
That's just how it goes.

706
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,800
I guess what, that's why the Noster crowd has been so much nicer in many ways,

707
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,800
because people are in for the right reasons.

708
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,800
Bit like early Bitcoiners who didn't actually have a monetary incentive.

709
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,800
At the time when Bitcoin didn't even have an exchange rate maybe or was very low worth.

710
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:34,800
Are you worried about Noster being actually successful and we having an eternal November moment?

711
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:35,800
No, no, no.

712
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:36,800
Is it November, September?

713
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,800
Now I'm tripping up.

714
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:40,800
Eternal September, eternal November?

715
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:41,800
No.

716
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:42,800
I don't know, eternal something.

717
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,800
Noster doesn't have the same incentive stuff.

718
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,800
It's just a protocol.

719
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,800
But what I mean is like in the early internet days, it was just a certain group of people that,

720
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,800
you know, there was a certain internet subculture.

721
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:56,800
Now we definitely have a Noster subculture.

722
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,800
And if we have, I don't know, 10 million people streaming in,

723
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,800
the culture will definitely change, right?

724
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,800
Just like the Bitcoin culture changed.

725
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,800
Yes, but it's okay.

726
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:06,800
It's okay?

727
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:07,800
Yes.

728
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,800
We'll find our groups.

729
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,800
Again, no global.

730
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:13,800
It'll happen.

731
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,800
Little smaller groups.

732
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,800
Outside of your own projects, what are the most exciting Noster projects for you?

733
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,800
We can just continue here.

734
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,800
I guess FIPS, what we've been talking about here a lot,

735
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,800
like the network routing based on Noster public case,

736
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,800
where you don't send to an IP address, but to a Noster public key.

737
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,800
And it will route it to the right place.

738
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:44,800
So that's very low level.

739
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,800
Are you generally interested in the low level stuff?

740
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:48,800
Yes.

741
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,800
No high level client that has you excited?

742
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:51,800
Yes.

743
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:58,800
Well, what are you excited about in the high level?

744
00:38:58,800 --> 00:38:59,800
I don't know.

745
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,800
I mean, I'm kind of more a generalist and all over the stack in some sense.

746
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:11,800
I'm really excited about kind of the proliferation and maturation of clients.

747
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,800
Like Wisp, for example, is a great example.

748
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,800
You know, one guy was able to sit down and actually build his dream client in,

749
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,800
I don't know what feels like two weeks, you know.

750
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:30,800
These micro apps might be a good trend instead of putting everything into a single app.

751
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,800
Like I've done with Iris and I guess many other apps.

752
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,800
I mean, this is the worst offender.

753
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:36,800
Yeah, I think.

754
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,800
Maybe like it makes sense to have a shell like Noster browser.

755
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:41,800
Yeah.

756
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,800
Damos is going in the right direction.

757
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:44,800
They will call.

758
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:45,800
With note deck, human?

759
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,800
Yeah, note deck which has a very efficient Noster DB,

760
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:54,800
which I have contributed to social graph stuff.

761
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,800
They will allow some sort of apps within.

762
00:39:58,800 --> 00:39:59,800
Yeah.

763
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:01,800
Note deck.

764
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,800
And then there's Iris browser, of course.

765
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,800
I'm not doing the whole browser stack.

766
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,800
I'm just using the native web view.

767
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,800
So I don't need to implement the whole browser, just the hash tree loading part.

768
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:15,800
Yeah.

769
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:16,800
And peer-to-peer.

770
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,800
And what has your exciting about FIPs?

771
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,800
Why was your immediate answer FIPs kind of the most exciting project?

772
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,800
I guess you need to start from the first principles of 10 times.

773
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,800
And our stack still runs on quite centralized internet.

774
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:38,800
So DNS and IP before are their worst offenders?

775
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,800
In a sense, maybe DNS is worse than IPV.

776
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,800
Well, IP, internet protocol and IP addresses.

777
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,800
And you think FIPs has legs?

778
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,800
It's kind of proliferate.

779
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,800
I mean, there's already like at least six or seven people building on top of it.

780
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:57,800
They're all here, right?

781
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:58,800
No.

782
00:40:58,800 --> 00:40:59,800
Yeah.

783
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,800
Well, I guess reticulum is kind of similar.

784
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,800
But I was asking Jonathan yesterday.

785
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,800
And his answer as I understood was basically it's optimized.

786
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,800
It's hyper optimized for low bandwidth links like Laura or something.

787
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:16,800
Yeah.

788
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,800
And FIPs can be more universal.

789
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:19,800
Yeah.

790
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:25,800
But yes, I think definitely makes it makes sense to have that sense.

791
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,800
To have that separation, like identity as the lowest layer,

792
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,800
publicly, that you talk to instead of IP address.

793
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,800
That brings me to your other project, NosterVPN.

794
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,800
Yes, I have so many.

795
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,800
Because every device has an endpuff, of course.

796
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:44,800
Yes.

797
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,800
And that's how you create your own virtual private network.

798
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:49,800
Yes.

799
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:50,800
Talk to me about that a little bit.

800
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,800
How did you come up with it and what made you build it?

801
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:53,800
And how does it work now?

802
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:54,800
Yeah.

803
00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:00,800
That was also that spawned from personal annoyances.

804
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:07,800
So I went down this whole Mac mini open-close, rabbit hole.

805
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,800
As many of us did.

806
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:10,800
Yes.

807
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,800
First I was running it on a Hitzner bare metal server.

808
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,800
But I wanted my own computer to do.

809
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:18,800
Yeah.

810
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,800
So I have the data and everything running on my own hardware at my home.

811
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:28,800
So then I needed a way to connect past the N80 and that.

812
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,800
And I installed tail scale.

813
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:38,800
But out of the box, it was asking for some Google or GitHub login details.

814
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,800
So I was really annoyed with that.

815
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:42,800
I started wiping it.

816
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,800
Triggered you into building an alternative straight up.

817
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:47,800
Yes.

818
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,800
I was like one or two days.

819
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:56,800
I was able to have nostril VPN, which did like the connection.

820
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:03,800
It was using wire guard or cloud flares version of wire guard boring ton underneath.

821
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:10,800
And it was establishing the link, like negotiating the IP addresses and ports over a nostril realize.

822
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,800
So you don't need user accounts.

823
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,800
You just set the end pops.

824
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,800
You want to connect to you.

825
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,800
And use that basically in production for yourself and have been using it for a while now, right?

826
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:21,800
Yeah.

827
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:22,800
Yes.

828
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:23,800
So what's your setup like?

829
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,800
Talk me through it.

830
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,800
Just Mac mini and MacBook laptops and nostril VPN installed.

831
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,800
And everything tunnels through your Mac mini basically.

832
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:35,800
And you're in it.

833
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,800
You're in the same VPN just by everything connects to the Mac mini and to each other.

834
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,800
No, no, I can SSH or screen share into the Mac mini.

835
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,800
I'm working on exit node functionality actually.

836
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,800
So I don't personally need it for this setup.

837
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,800
But I think that would be cool.

838
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:54,800
Some people need it done.

839
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:55,800
Oh, absolutely.

840
00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:02,800
And later on, I want to have like cashew incentivized exit node market.

841
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:03,800
Okay.

842
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,800
So you can basically rent out your exit node in some sense.

843
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:09,800
Like you can just provide exit node service.

844
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:10,800
Yes.

845
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,800
And you get like a you can get like a residential exit point.

846
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:14,800
Yeah.

847
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:15,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

848
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,800
I mean, that's that's why I think where it necessarily has to go.

849
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,800
Because if you just use a commercial VPN, doesn't matter which one.

850
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,800
It's always just a matter of time until the IP addresses are blacklisted by YouTube and whatever.

851
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,800
It's like just that will just continue.

852
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:30,800
Like it will just get worse and worse and worse.

853
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,800
There's going to be the fully KYC normie internet.

854
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,800
And if you're behind the VPN, you're not going to be able to access anything.

855
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:37,800
Yeah.

856
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,800
And there's going to be our whatever mesh.

857
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:40,800
It muster internet.

858
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:41,800
Yeah.

859
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:42,800
Nosternet.

860
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:49,800
I think if I think many people would actually want to run such a way to get some like every

861
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,800
AI agent out there could learn some sites.

862
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:53,800
Yeah.

863
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:54,800
Yeah.

864
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:55,800
Yeah.

865
00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:00,800
That's the hope kind of for the for the for the larger vision that like Dorsi mentioned

866
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:01,800
that recently as well.

867
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,800
Kind of the killer feature of both Bitcoin and Noster is that it is permissionless.

868
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:06,800
Yeah, absolutely.

869
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:13,800
And you need those kind of services to make the permissionlessness work because like everyone

870
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,800
who ever set up OpenClaw knows that the first thing you need is like 15 different API keys

871
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,800
that you kind of you know you need to KYC for basically.

872
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:22,800
Yeah.

873
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:23,800
Not easy to get.

874
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:28,800
That's actually one of the rare things that I'm optimistic about in the future.

875
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,800
Like I think Noster and Bitcoin have the fundamentals why they're permissionless.

876
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:39,800
So actually I think agents aren't going to want to use them over any third party service.

877
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:45,800
They can just recursively develop them into that.

878
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,800
The same part why I'm recording these things by the way to get the propaganda out and feed it

879
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,800
into the agents that they know what's up.

880
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:54,800
Yes.

881
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,800
And I'm only half kidding.

882
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,800
I think you know Gwern.

883
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:05,800
He has a, he wrote Bitcoin is worse is better in the very early days.

884
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,800
He has like an awesome blog.

885
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,800
He also wrote about the scaling loss.

886
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,800
He's a kind of, he's not really a researcher.

887
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:19,800
He's just a guy that you know doesn't has too much time on his hands and is really good at researching stuff and writing.

888
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:25,800
And he basically mentioned that if you don't put your thoughts out now,

889
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:32,800
you're going to be made obsolete in the future because everything that doesn't exist kind of on the internet now.

890
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,800
Yeah, you need to get it into the LLAMs basically is his idea.

891
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,800
We're looping back to what we talked, what we talked before.

892
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:47,800
So any other projects you have on, that you want to work on, any other annoyances, any other,

893
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,800
it's just you want to scratch for yourself.

894
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,800
Or it's like 12 different projects enough for now.

895
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,800
There's so much going on.

896
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:02,800
That's like I said, that's why I'm here like to push these ideas out there.

897
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,800
Like let's see it maybe.

898
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:11,800
I'm hoping someone will find some of this interesting and continue developing.

899
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,800
So I don't, I still don't have the bandwidth.

900
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,800
Maybe in a year or so things develop so fast.

901
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,800
I can just have a swarm of agents do all this stuff.

902
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,800
And wave around it.

903
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,800
Just talk about things and they will just create themselves magically basically.

904
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,800
Yeah, we just feed this for the cast into the AI.

905
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,800
That's what I'm doing basically. That's how I'm by coding these days.

906
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:40,800
I'm just I'm just rambling for a long time and then just feed it into various agents and something will pop out.

907
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,800
But you just mentioned that's why you're here.

908
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,800
What made you come here in the first place? I would be very curious.

909
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,800
I was very surprised when I saw that you were coming.

910
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,800
I guess I wanted to visit this beautiful place for a while.

911
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,800
How come you even know about tower engineering?

912
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,800
Like let's start there.

913
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,800
We're very bad at marketing, you know.

914
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:08,800
I guess I knew about it somehow, but I have family life.

915
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,800
So it's not I'm not totally free to travel anytime.

916
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:21,800
So after I published most of VPN, I think Jonathan Corrigan,

917
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,800
message me.

918
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:29,800
Did you introduce him to me or someone introduced him to me?

919
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,800
He asked me to come to Mother Eros.

920
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:33,800
I said, why not?

921
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:34,800
That was awesome.

922
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,800
Yeah, I'm very humble that you're here.

923
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,800
I mean, you know, like it's...

924
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:42,800
It doesn't get much better than that.

925
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:43,800
It was like week before.

926
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:44,800
Yeah.

927
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,800
Week before that I decided to come.

928
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,800
All right, all right, all right.

929
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,800
What did you think about the program so far?

930
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,800
So we're at the end of...

931
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,800
It's the weekend now.

932
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:58,800
So we participated for one week.

933
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:00,800
We're after the first week.

934
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,800
What was your impression?

935
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:03,800
It's awesome.

936
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,800
It's a great filter when people need to spend their time on money

937
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,800
to come participate.

938
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,800
People are here for the right reasons.

939
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,800
They're really enthusiastic about what they're doing.

940
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,800
And they do meaningful stuff.

941
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:26,800
It's really intense, like from morning to evening,

942
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,800
you work on stuff, code intensely,

943
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,800
and then you socialize the exchange ideas,

944
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,800
listen to presentations to your demos and your lunch talks.

945
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,800
You see all this amazing mesh radios around you.

946
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,800
I think that's the only downside,

947
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,800
that it's almost like two intents.

948
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,800
Every single time I almost burn out,

949
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,800
just kind of my social batteries are drained,

950
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,800
and my brain is overloaded with like a million ideas.

951
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,800
And just everyone is, you know,

952
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,800
like operating on such a high level,

953
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,800
everyone is an expert in their own field, basically.

954
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,800
And it's almost impossible to, you know,

955
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,800
like be caught up and participate in every single conversation,

956
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,800
because it's just like, what do I know about FIPS, you know?

957
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,800
And Jonathan is standing next to me

958
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,800
and explaining all kinds of, you know,

959
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:20,800
intricacies of network communication.

960
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,800
And I'm just, my brain just melts every single time,

961
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,800
like those kind of things happen.

962
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,800
So that's the one downside of server engineering,

963
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,800
that it's like almost two intents.

964
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,800
I'm not sure how long I could keep up with this.

965
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,800
Normal life is totally the opposite.

966
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:42,800
And that's the funny contrast that, like,

967
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:44,800
lots of people are massive introverts

968
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,800
and just, you know, computer scientists and programmers and so on,

969
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,800
and just getting them to participate in such a program

970
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:52,800
that's so intense and also so collaborative

971
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,800
and like socially draining.

972
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,800
It's an interesting experiment.

973
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,800
But to me, it's amazing that people are actually coming

974
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:01,800
and enjoying it and so on.

975
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,800
Yeah, I mean, having beautiful Madera helps.

976
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:08,800
Yeah, but I think of it, it's kind of my childhood or teenage dream

977
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,800
that I'm living here, like, packing away with people

978
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,800
on a beautiful island and doing what I want.

979
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,800
Awesome, awesome.

980
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:22,800
How did you, like, you had some very interesting ideas early on, right?

981
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,800
Like, that's also why you discovered Bitcoin so early on.

982
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,800
Like, how...

983
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,800
Tell me how you got into the computer stuff in the first place

984
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,800
and how you ended up studying computer science.

985
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,800
I've always been a gamer, I guess.

986
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:39,800
What did you play?

987
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,800
We had those games, those computers,

988
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,800
where I started with all the retro-dose.

989
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:47,800
Frogger.

990
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:48,800
I played, like, Keen.

991
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:50,800
Oh, Commander Keen, nice.

992
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:51,800
Yes.

993
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,800
And the sky roads.

994
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:54,800
Nice.

995
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:55,800
I remember all those.

996
00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:00,800
I had a conversation, one, and warlords.

997
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,800
Well, many classics.

998
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,800
We had a thriving gaming scene in Finland as well, like,

999
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,800
finished a floppy disk games.

1000
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,800
Yeah, I guess I've always been into computers,

1001
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,800
this introverted guy, better with computers than humans.

1002
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:18,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1003
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,800
So gaming was your entry drug, same for me, by the way.

1004
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:22,800
Yeah, yeah.

1005
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:27,800
Some sort of fascination computers since childhood.

1006
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,800
So did you do kind of early networking games as well,

1007
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,800
like building IPX-aspects, token ring networks,

1008
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,800
and using serial computer cables to plug computers

1009
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,800
to gather those kind of things?

1010
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:40,800
We had LAN parties and stuff like that.

1011
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,800
But you already had routers and switches, or no.

1012
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:44,800
When was it?

1013
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,800
Do you remember your first LAN party?

1014
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,800
We only started doing that really in high school, actually.

1015
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:51,800
Okay.

1016
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:52,800
Right dollar.

1017
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,800
Okay, that was already operating system was that

1018
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,800
it was already like Windows 2000 and T, something like that.

1019
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:00,800
Yeah, XP.

1020
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:01,800
XP, okay.

1021
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:02,800
Yeah.

1022
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:07,800
So I still remember in the kind of MS-DOS days trying

1023
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,800
to do networking and just kind of the hell of that.

1024
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,800
Everything is so much easier these days, even with, you know,

1025
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:16,800
Mastering Fips.

1026
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:17,800
Yeah.

1027
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:24,800
I guess I was a rebel since my teenage years when I started growing

1028
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,800
my hair long and listening to heavy metal music and wearing black

1029
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,800
and playing heavy metal bands.

1030
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,800
I want to see pictures one day, you with long hair.

1031
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,800
I don't have any good pictures from that period.

1032
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:37,800
What a shame.

1033
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,800
But you still play, right?

1034
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:40,800
You're still?

1035
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:41,800
Yes, playing a task.

1036
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:43,800
Happy to play in Satoshi Rokamoto.

1037
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,800
Yeah, nice to have a long time.

1038
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:46,800
I have a reason to practice again.

1039
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:47,800
Nice.

1040
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,800
That's a nice place, by the way.

1041
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:50,800
That's where the locals go.

1042
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,800
It's like a public bath place, more or less.

1043
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,800
You want to have the other direction to see how long we can go?

1044
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,800
I still have like 20 minutes in me in terms of brain power.

1045
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:03,800
Air B and B is the same way.

1046
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:04,800
That's the same way.

1047
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:05,800
Oh, okay.

1048
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:06,800
You want to just continue?

1049
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:07,800
Or we could continue.

1050
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:08,800
Yeah.

1051
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:09,800
Let's go to your place directionally.

1052
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:10,800
Yeah.

1053
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:11,800
All right, that's fine.

1054
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:17,800
Let's just, I just hope we're the background noise is manageable.

1055
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:22,800
But that's a nice thing about doing the walking conversations in the sun.

1056
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,800
It has a natural time limit, because like for me,

1057
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,800
at least after 90 minutes, I'm cooked.

1058
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:28,800
Yes.

1059
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,800
I can't concentrate anymore.

1060
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:32,800
Yeah.

1061
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:37,800
Like in a Fallout game series, you could choose to play chess against this computer in this

1062
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:42,800
nuclear reactor place, but then you get irradiated.

1063
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,800
So you have a time limit.

1064
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,800
Same idea, same principle.

1065
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,800
So for you, it was gaming computers, computer science.

1066
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:52,800
Yes.

1067
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:54,800
And during your studies, you got in touch with Bitcoin.

1068
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:55,800
Yes.

1069
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,800
Also, I was in his part by pirate day, and rebelliousness of it.

1070
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,800
And I knew all the founders that are soon dead.

1071
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:03,800
Yeah.

1072
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:05,800
Who I've actually talked to.

1073
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,800
And I guess, was it Gottfried or something?

1074
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:10,800
Yeah.

1075
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:11,800
Yeah, he got very disillusioned.

1076
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,800
Like there is a keynote of him where he just basically was like fully black-filled,

1077
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,800
and it's like, it's over the internet is dead, and we lost.

1078
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,800
So what do you think about that, would you?

1079
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,800
No, torrents are still running.

1080
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,800
But we could do better.

1081
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:31,800
And I think we will, like peer-to-peer ups,

1082
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,800
we're unable to compete in user experience against big tech companies.

1083
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:41,800
But no, the tables are turning with LLM agents.

1084
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:48,800
Like software is so cheap to create that you can make amazing decentralized experience.

1085
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,800
And like you said before, the Bitcoin and Noster got the basics right.

1086
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,800
And I think if we do our job well, then the UX in the end will even be better.

1087
00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:58,800
Yes.

1088
00:55:58,800 --> 00:55:59,800
Because there will be less friction.

1089
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:00,800
Yes, absolutely.

1090
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:01,800
Yes.

1091
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,800
And it will work without the internet in some cases.

1092
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:10,800
I like that you're still disoptimistic after, you know, like so many years.

1093
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:11,800
Yeah.

1094
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,800
Most people go crazy, lose their minds, or like, you know.

1095
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:20,800
But we're only like four months into the AI agent craziness.

1096
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:21,800
That's true.

1097
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:23,800
That's true.

1098
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,800
Yeah.

1099
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:28,800
Yeah, I'm not sure how this is going to go.

1100
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:32,800
Like the OpenClaw phenomenon is definitely interesting.

1101
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:37,800
I think it's going to be harder to use, in some sense, in a little while.

1102
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:39,800
Like today.

1103
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:44,800
It's for Epic announced that they're going to put the brakes on OpenClaw usage.

1104
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,800
You're not allowed to use third-party harnesses anymore.

1105
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:48,800
What if you are a subscription?

1106
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,800
I have to pick socks.

1107
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:53,800
I only use codecs.

1108
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:55,800
It's much metric-coder.

1109
00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:00,800
What I do want to use local, at some point, local layer.

1110
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,800
And you think the models will definitely get there?

1111
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:04,800
Yes.

1112
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:05,800
You can just run everything locally?

1113
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:06,800
Yes, I think so.

1114
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:07,800
I hope sooner.

1115
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:08,800
I'll talk about that later.

1116
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,800
What's your guess at an ETA?

1117
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,800
Like when can we, when can you run local models on your Mac Mini?

1118
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,800
And it will work equally well as it does for you right now, with codecs?

1119
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:20,800
I guess next year, latest.

1120
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:21,800
Next year, latest?

1121
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:22,800
I think so.

1122
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:23,800
All right.

1123
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:25,800
Now you have to lead the way by the way.

1124
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:26,800
I don't know where we go.

1125
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:27,800
Whatever.

1126
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:28,800
We can walk around.

1127
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,800
Less is like three minutes coming in.

1128
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:32,800
All right.

1129
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:33,800
Let's see.

1130
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:37,800
This is a nice restaurant.

1131
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:39,800
Yeah, that's very nice.

1132
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:51,800
A little bit of restaurant atmosphere in between.

1133
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:53,800
I've never heard anyone.

1134
00:57:53,800 --> 00:58:00,800
So, so I'm, what I'm hearing is that you're very optimistic about certain aspects of

1135
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,800
Noster, very optimistic about locally run agents.

1136
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:04,800
Yes.

1137
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,800
And very optimistic about freedom tech in general.

1138
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:08,800
Yeah.

1139
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:09,800
Yes.

1140
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:10,800
Is it fair?

1141
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:11,800
Yeah.

1142
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:16,800
There's certain, like, centralization aspect to AI, I guess, with the data centers and stuff.

1143
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,800
But then on the, on the other hand, you will be able to compress AI on.

1144
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,800
So many edge devices, low power devices.

1145
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:29,800
Like, now we even have the ASICs that are really fast and performant.

1146
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:34,800
But they're hard coded to some certain open source, open weight model, I guess.

1147
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,800
Are you still optimistic about Bitcoin as well?

1148
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,800
Yeah.

1149
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:40,800
I am.

1150
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,800
The fundamental something changed.

1151
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,800
Fun fact, by the way, you can, the restaurant we just walked through the exit Bitcoin.

1152
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:48,800
Oh, yeah.

1153
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:49,800
Yeah.

1154
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:50,800
We went there yesterday.

1155
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:51,800
Yeah.

1156
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:52,800
Awesome.

1157
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:57,800
To me, lots of people that are less optimistic, they actually, I get the feeling they actually don't

1158
00:58:57,800 --> 00:58:58,800
use Bitcoin.

1159
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:03,800
They actually kind of are on the sidelines and are sitting on Bitcoin just because whatever,

1160
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,800
whatever headline just hit.

1161
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:06,800
Yeah.

1162
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,800
But Bitcoin in payments also needs to solve a problem, I think.

1163
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,800
And it's not doing a great job at that always.

1164
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,800
Like, we need to integrate payments to the existing networks.

1165
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,800
Like, like, was it square?

1166
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:21,800
Square, to me?

1167
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:22,800
Yeah, yeah.

1168
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:23,800
It's just integrated.

1169
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:24,800
They just turned it on.

1170
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:25,800
Yeah.

1171
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:31,800
But they need to make it like, you don't either want us separately ask to use Bitcoin.

1172
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:32,800
Yeah.

1173
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:33,800
Yeah.

1174
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:34,800
Yeah, yeah.

1175
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:35,800
Exactly.

1176
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:36,800
Do you still have 15 minutes or so?

1177
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:38,800
Because I would suggest we just go one more ring down there.

1178
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:40,800
Because if we go up, we're just going to be.

1179
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:41,800
Exhausted.

1180
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:42,800
Yeah.

1181
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,800
Huffing and puffing and just sweating into the microphone.

1182
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:50,800
But yeah, I mean, the square thing obviously is big.

1183
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:55,800
And yeah, it's amazing how fast they were able to do that in some sense.

1184
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:57,800
Like, I think they beat their own internal timelines.

1185
00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:58,800
Yeah.

1186
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,800
And I guess that's where it can actually solve a problem when you integrate it.

1187
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:09,800
It actually saves the merchant money in transaction fees.

1188
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,800
I think in terms of problem solving, it's the same for Noster as well.

1189
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:20,800
It's, if you have a relatively stable and normal Western life,

1190
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,800
you're not kind of the target demographic.

1191
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:24,800
Yeah.

1192
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:31,800
But if you work in a, you know, kind of what people would consider a questionable industry

1193
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,800
and you just get the platform, then the bank, then so on all the time,

1194
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,800
then it suddenly becomes very appealing.

1195
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:41,800
And I think what we have on the Noster side is,

1196
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:44,800
I think the political climate will only heat up.

1197
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:45,800
Yeah.

1198
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:47,800
I don't think it will normalize anytime soon.

1199
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:48,800
Yeah.

1200
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,800
And so depending on kind of the, the powers that be,

1201
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,800
you'll just be the platform for different things and opinions.

1202
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:56,800
Yes.

1203
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:57,800
Yes.

1204
01:00:57,800 --> 01:00:59,800
And the platform's ex.

1205
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:00,800
They have no choice.

1206
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:01,800
Yeah.

1207
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,800
Yeah, the platforms have their own rules on their own,

1208
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:06,800
like feed algorithms.

1209
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:08,800
You might want to avoid.

1210
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,800
Yeah, we see this all the time where new platforms spring up

1211
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,800
because they promised they're not going to center.

1212
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:18,800
And there was like, you know, like there was through social

1213
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:23,800
and there was whatever, like, you know, some Christian run platforms

1214
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:25,800
that, you know, free speech, free speech.

1215
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:27,800
And then you post boops and you're banned, you know?

1216
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:28,800
Yeah.

1217
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:30,800
Like it's just a different kind of censorship.

1218
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:31,800
Yeah.

1219
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,800
Especially that brings me to another point of mind.

1220
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,800
Besides lowering the cost of software development,

1221
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:42,800
AI also, I think it will eat away network effects,

1222
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,800
because your AI agent can easily query like that.

1223
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:46,800
Let's go here again.

1224
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:51,800
That's your AI agent can query like 10 different platforms easily.

1225
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:52,800
So it doesn't.

1226
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:53,800
It doesn't.

1227
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:55,800
I see network.

1228
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,800
That's a good point, actually, because the interface will be your agent.

1229
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:00,800
And not.

1230
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:01,800
Yeah.

1231
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:02,800
Yeah.

1232
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:03,800
That's a good point.

1233
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:04,800
I never thought about it in that light.

1234
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:05,800
Yeah.

1235
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:07,800
And it will also pose to all these platforms.

1236
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:08,800
Yeah.

1237
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,800
And you can eventually just use most.

1238
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:12,800
If you use your agent as the interface,

1239
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,800
the interface that comes bundled with the platform is less important.

1240
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:16,800
Yeah.

1241
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,800
And that's going to be interesting to have businesses like X

1242
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:21,800
that rely on the precisely on the network.

1243
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:22,800
Yeah.

1244
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:24,800
Also in terms of infrastructure, migrating away from something

1245
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:25,800
is now way easier.

1246
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:27,800
If you use your AI agent as the interface,

1247
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,800
the interface that comes bundled with the platform is less important.

1248
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,800
And the thing is now way easier if you have a capable agent.

1249
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,800
You can just do it in a very short amount of time,

1250
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:38,800
with very little headache.

1251
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:40,800
So yeah, that's a really good point.

1252
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:41,800
Yeah.

1253
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,800
It's a kind of a, you know, auroboros effect,

1254
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,800
kind of the snake of big tech eating its own tail,

1255
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:50,800
destroying its own network effect in some sense.

1256
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:51,800
Yes.

1257
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:53,800
But I think it will definitely be a fight.

1258
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:55,800
I think right now,

1259
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:57,800
lots of AI users just subsidized, right?

1260
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:03,800
And they will try to box everyone into their own ecosystems.

1261
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:05,800
I mean, that's already happening now,

1262
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:10,800
like I mentioned with Anthropic and so on.

1263
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:15,800
So what have you used any kind of Noster-based AI routing services

1264
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,800
like Roucher or something like that, or PPQ?

1265
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:19,800
No.

1266
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,800
I'm not comfortable sending my prompts to some random folks.

1267
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,800
Actually, I'd rather give them to OpenA,

1268
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:27,800
and it's interesting.

1269
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:33,800
Send my personal agents know what's on your hard drive.

1270
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:35,800
Yeah, yeah, even if you don't.

1271
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:37,800
I don't use my personal,

1272
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:39,800
give it access to my personal stuff.

1273
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,800
I have my Mac Mini's for development.

1274
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,800
So do you know anything about Maple?

1275
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,800
Yes, yes, I know.

1276
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,800
No, it's...

1277
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,800
My problem is,

1278
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,800
it's still trust me, bro, in some way.

1279
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:02,800
Like you still need to trust, maybe, NVIDIA's signatures.

1280
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:03,800
Yeah, okay, I see.

1281
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:05,800
Yeah, I mean, that's the problem with trusting trust.

1282
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:07,800
How paranoid do you want to be?

1283
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:09,800
You're still sending your prompts to someone else.

1284
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:10,800
Yeah, yeah.

1285
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:15,800
So, ideal for you would be just to run everything on your local hardware.

1286
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:17,800
That would be part of the goal, right?

1287
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:22,800
I guess Maple can be better if the quality is sufficient.

1288
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:23,800
Yeah, yeah.

1289
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:25,800
Yeah, no, I just wanted to point out the project

1290
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,800
because there is, of course, lots of people trying to make this work

1291
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,800
and lots of people kind of trying to provide alternatives

1292
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:34,800
to kind of big tech, in some sense.

1293
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:35,800
Yeah.

1294
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:37,800
And yeah, it's just going to take a little while to mature

1295
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,800
and also be competitive in terms of price, I think, the most.

1296
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,800
Like the biggest issue right now is just like if you use the big services,

1297
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:46,800
like you benefit from the subsidies so much,

1298
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:48,800
it's just so much cheaper.

1299
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:50,800
Yeah, and yeah.

1300
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:54,800
But I guess some sort of erosion of privacy is inevitable in some way

1301
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:59,800
because information gets so much more accessible with all the new technology,

1302
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:04,800
with increasing bandwidth to process it with AI.

1303
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:09,800
So, are you hinting on kind of also the anonymization and those kind of things?

1304
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:13,800
Because I would argue that what we talked about before,

1305
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:19,800
permissionless and frictionless nature of Bitcoin and Oster helps you privacy-wise.

1306
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:23,800
Like, nothing stops you from spinning up a new amp up and just doing things.

1307
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:25,800
Yeah, I hope it can also help.

1308
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:30,800
Yeah, I can also use to increase improve privacy and everything

1309
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:36,800
and develop better privacy protocols and all that.

1310
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:41,800
Just occurred to me, like if you use a local agent as your interface,

1311
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,800
they can't even fingerprint your typing,

1312
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:46,800
because it runs through an agent first.

1313
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:47,800
You know what I mean?

1314
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:48,800
Yes.

1315
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:50,800
If you let your agent shit post for you,

1316
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:56,800
then you'll be insulated from text and type fingerprinting.

1317
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:57,800
Yeah.

1318
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:04,800
Someone was demoing as you see traffic analysis.

1319
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:06,800
Oh, yeah, that makes that thing.

1320
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:07,800
Yeah.

1321
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:10,800
So even if the traffic is encrypted, even if you use Tor,

1322
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,800
you can identify traffic patterns.

1323
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:14,800
Yeah.

1324
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:19,800
As far as I see using like noise,

1325
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:25,800
like using 100% of your bandwidth for noise and then embedding signal

1326
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:26,800
in there, no one then.

1327
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:27,800
Yeah.

1328
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:28,800
His own solution to that.

1329
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:30,800
Yeah.

1330
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:35,800
Yeah, I mean, it's, again, it's going to be a long battle kind of

1331
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:41,800
making FreedomTank more widespread than it currently is.

1332
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:45,800
I remain hopeful because it is more widespread than it ever was in some sense.

1333
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:51,800
And just in like very normal, like using a VPN, for example,

1334
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:52,800
is very normal.

1335
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:55,800
Like half the podcasts that listen to they have VPN advertisements and so on.

1336
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,800
Like 15 years ago, not knowing really knew what a VPN was.

1337
01:06:58,800 --> 01:06:59,800
You know what I mean?

1338
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:03,800
It's like that's kind of that improved massively.

1339
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:08,800
And I hope that kind of just, you know, using VPN is like using a more

1340
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:09,800
private internet in some sense.

1341
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:12,800
It's like, you know, a condom for your router, basically.

1342
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:14,800
And it's a normal thing now.

1343
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:18,800
And I hope that in the future, it will just be normal to use more private money,

1344
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,800
for example, you know, or also more private identity.

1345
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:22,800
Yeah.

1346
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:24,800
Like to the nostto point.

1347
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:29,800
How do you think about identity in general?

1348
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,800
I would be very curious because that was kind of your first foray, right?

1349
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:37,800
Like the identity question is what got you interested in the whole,

1350
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:41,800
like in the pre-noster day, basically.

1351
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:48,800
I'm asking because you're operating under your clear name and have your face

1352
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:50,800
as your profile picture, those kind of things.

1353
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:54,800
How do you think about online identity or identity in cyberspace?

1354
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:57,800
I know it's a broad question, but I'd be curious.

1355
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:01,800
And let's walk here and that's where we turn around at the lighthouse.

1356
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:02,800
Yeah.

1357
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:03,800
Yeah.

1358
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:09,800
So anonymity online is kind of difficult, especially systems like

1359
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:14,800
nostto where creating new identities is easy.

1360
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:16,800
It's free, basically.

1361
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,800
You can just spam new public keys.

1362
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:26,800
So to me, it seems like the only good solution is social graph.

1363
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:30,800
And why are you saying it's difficult?

1364
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:34,800
You can just generate spam as much as you can.

1365
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:35,800
Okay.

1366
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:36,800
It's easy to spam.

1367
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:37,800
It's what you're saying.

1368
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:38,800
Yeah.

1369
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:43,800
There's no phone numbers or emails limiting you or anything.

1370
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:49,800
So rate limiting and spam is obviously an issue for in a cryptographic identity space.

1371
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:54,800
Then you just use social graph, but then you're not anonymous anymore.

1372
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:57,800
But pseudonymous is what you can be.

1373
01:08:57,800 --> 01:08:59,800
Yeah, you can be pseudonymous.

1374
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:06,800
Maybe you can have like trusted anonymizers.

1375
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:15,800
Like you trust someone to uniquely like provide only one identity per natural human or something.

1376
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,800
Are you like anonymous forums?

1377
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:30,800
I really like a talk about the 4chan founder of all people gave Christopher Paul.

1378
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:32,800
Moot was his name or his his name.

1379
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:37,800
And he talked about how identity is prismatic.

1380
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:42,800
It's kind of that like also in the real world, you know, like you're not the same person when you go to church,

1381
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:48,800
when you go to the nightclub or when you go to a wedding or funeral or to work or to your football club or whatever.

1382
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:54,800
Like do you think on the noster side we have a chance of replicating that prismatic identity in some sense?

1383
01:09:54,800 --> 01:10:01,800
Yeah, of course you can generate new profiles.

1384
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:03,800
I mean, that's how it is now.

1385
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:06,800
You have separate endpups for separate things.

1386
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:08,800
I mean, lots of people do that.

1387
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:13,800
I think, you know, like noster power users like seriously be they have like five different endpups.

1388
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:14,800
Yeah.

1389
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:21,800
One only posts about trains and the other one only posts about whatever frogs.

1390
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:24,800
So any thoughts on the identity part?

1391
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,800
Because obviously one thing we're still missing is key rotation and identity permanence.

1392
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:32,800
Like if you get compromised or if it's lost, lost.

1393
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:36,800
Yeah, watch out. Don't fall down.

1394
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:41,800
Yeah, so I don't speak into signers.

1395
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,800
Well, I do use noster signing extension in the browser.

1396
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:46,800
Okay.

1397
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:50,800
But what do you use on your phone?

1398
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:59,800
Just I use Iris, my own web-based clientless progressive web app on the desktop on the home screen.

1399
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,800
And no, no, no signer.

1400
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:07,800
Like there is August on iOS as a signing app.

1401
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:12,800
And there is no, I don't do that.

1402
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:18,800
I think optimally we might want one keeper device.

1403
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:26,800
And then just have the social verification to attach the devices into the same identity.

1404
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:27,800
So the devices can.

1405
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:29,800
So that this key can sign in your name?

1406
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:30,800
Yes.

1407
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:31,800
Okay.

1408
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:32,800
Yeah.

1409
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:40,800
And systems for like revoking those lost or hacked devices, compromised keys or something.

1410
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,800
So master keys are not a solution.

1411
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:45,800
You can always lose your master keys.

1412
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:46,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1413
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:48,800
It just shifts the problem.

1414
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:49,800
Yeah.

1415
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:52,800
So do you know anything about Anseq Bunker?

1416
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:58,800
Like with certain signing policies, I think Anseq Bunker would enable that already.

1417
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:00,800
The scenario you're sketching out?

1418
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:02,800
I'm not familiar with stuff.

1419
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:03,800
Okay.

1420
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:04,800
I have very few people use it.

1421
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:08,800
And I still think it was one of the biggest mistakes of Pablo to ever work on that.

1422
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:12,800
Because you're building, you're making a coin base for a master possible.

1423
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:16,800
With that, it's basically, you know, like you're abstracting the keys away.

1424
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:17,800
Yeah.

1425
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:21,800
And I guess I was always interested in decentralized market places.

1426
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:27,800
And that's where reputation comes in identity adjacent to them.

1427
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:30,800
Are you working on that on the Irish side as well?

1428
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:36,800
I've done some prototyping with the 11 tools, but I haven't had time for that.

1429
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:37,800
Okay.

1430
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:42,800
Do you know about the existing projects like plebian market and chopster and those kind of things?

1431
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:43,800
No.

1432
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:46,800
People exist, but they are obviously still very, very small.

1433
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:47,800
But they are.

1434
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:48,800
Yeah.

1435
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:49,800
They are existing market places.

1436
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:51,800
People do actually sell stuff on our side.

1437
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:57,800
Like there's the one artist, the Italian artist, is a bellow art or something.

1438
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:04,800
And purely kind of Bitcoin-enominated and only sold on our side.

1439
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:05,800
Yeah.

1440
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:07,800
So there is an existing market already.

1441
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:08,800
Yeah.

1442
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:11,800
And reputation is also maybe not so great with anonymity.

1443
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:12,800
Yeah.

1444
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:13,800
Sure.

1445
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:16,800
You need pseudonymity to build up a reputation, that's for sure.

1446
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:17,800
Yeah.

1447
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:18,800
All right.

1448
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:19,800
Let's make the loop back.

1449
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:21,800
And then I'll drop you off at your place.

1450
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:22,800
Yeah.

1451
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:23,800
You, thanks for indulging me.

1452
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:25,800
But that's your second hike today already.

1453
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:26,800
Yeah.

1454
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:27,800
I'm exhausted.

1455
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:29,800
After an exhausting week.

1456
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:30,800
Yes.

1457
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:31,800
And I put you on the spot right away.

1458
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:32,800
Yeah.

1459
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:33,800
You know, like you'll have to present on this.

1460
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:36,800
And you'll have to run a workshop on Vp and that's on.

1461
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:37,800
Yeah.

1462
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:41,800
You know, like don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness.

1463
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:42,800
Yes.

1464
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:43,800
Kind of thing.

1465
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,800
I hope you're going to forgive me too for putting you all through all that.

1466
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:47,800
Yes.

1467
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:49,800
Thanks for all the nice things.

1468
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,800
Yeah, to me, it's amazing that it's that people are still coming

1469
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:55,800
and kind of putting yourself through all that.

1470
01:13:55,800 --> 01:14:01,800
And I hope that we can just continue and like get the best, most motivated people involved

1471
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:06,800
and actually fix all these issues that we, you know, hinted on and talked about.

1472
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:09,800
You mentioned the pirate bay, by the way.

1473
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:16,800
And I think it's hilarious that to some degree, the Nostocrowde re-build a lot of the mechanisms

1474
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:20,800
that made pirate bay work and makes it still work.

1475
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:23,800
And like, for example, lots of mirrored pages, right?

1476
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:24,800
Like lots of entry points.

1477
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:25,800
Yeah.

1478
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:27,800
And like, inside is that to some degree.

1479
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:30,800
Then, you know, lots of fall tolerance.

1480
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:32,800
I mean, we obviously have relays and so on.

1481
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:35,800
Content addressing and so on with magnet links, all these kind of stuff.

1482
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:44,800
They kind of, in a game of whack-a-mo, came up with all these solutions to eliminate the central part of failures.

1483
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:48,800
I think on the Nostocrowde, it's like kind of the same thing happened.

1484
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:53,800
And yeah, my hope is that it will just continue and get better.

1485
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:57,800
And people, like you said, you know, like they should be in it for the right reasons.

1486
01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:03,800
So I kind of hope that it stays smallish in some sense.

1487
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:06,800
Like, how should I put it?

1488
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:12,800
I think what would be kind of bad for Nostocrowde, if something would happen that allows you to earn a lot of money with Nostocrowde.

1489
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:13,800
You know what I mean?

1490
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:17,800
And then lots of grifters and business people come in and they usually destroy stuff.

1491
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,800
You know, like they usually take shortcuts and make things worse.

1492
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:24,800
Yeah, but the Nostocrowde is not slow level of stuff.

1493
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:27,800
It's like using HTTP for scams or something.

1494
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:28,800
Yeah, yeah.

1495
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:29,800
I agree.

1496
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:30,800
I agree.

1497
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:32,800
That's what has made me hopeful as well.

1498
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:35,800
It's a protocol after all.

1499
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:43,800
And yeah, that's, you know, you usually don't make money with protocols unless you're shit money.

1500
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:47,800
Last question from my side.

1501
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:53,800
What would you like to see build in the next like six months from now or so?

1502
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:56,800
Like there's four or five people that are listening to that.

1503
01:15:56,800 --> 01:15:59,800
They are all Nostocrowde developers, so just get your ideas out.

1504
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:03,800
You should use hash tree more than the hash tree.

1505
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:07,800
So everyone's repot should default to a hash tree remote.

1506
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:08,800
Yes.

1507
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:09,800
That's your dream?

1508
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:10,800
Yes.

1509
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:11,800
What else?

1510
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:13,800
That's a very easy ask.

1511
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:19,800
I feel like just pushing my own stuff because that's all I've been thinking about.

1512
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:23,800
Just use permissionless freedom tech.

1513
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,800
And solve real problems that people have.

1514
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:31,800
Not like theoretically nice to have stuff, but take some.

1515
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:36,800
Myself, I've not always been right at this and tried to be trying to do better.

1516
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:40,800
I feel like Nostro BPN has actually solved a real problem.

1517
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:42,800
It's been interesting to many people.

1518
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:46,800
So that's where you don't need those network effects.

1519
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:47,800
Yeah.

1520
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:51,800
I mean, it solved a real problem for at least one person, which is you.

1521
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:53,800
And I'm a big believer in scratching your own edge.

1522
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:57,800
Like if something is actually broken for you, try to fix it.

1523
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:02,800
So it works for you, but also publish it at the same time so that other people can pick it up.

1524
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:05,800
And learn for it and use it as well.

1525
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:08,800
Yeah, I think that's a good note to end on.

1526
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:09,800
I won't.

1527
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:10,800
I won't.

1528
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:11,800
Let's go in the shade.

1529
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:15,800
I won't subject you to more heat and more questions.

1530
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:17,800
So we always end on the hug.

1531
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:19,800
Thanks so much for being here and doing this.

1532
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:20,800
Thank you.

1533
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:22,800
And it was a pleasure to have you.

1534
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:23,800
I'm still.

1535
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:25,800
I'm very humbled that you came.

1536
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:31,800
And anytime again, you know, like if it works with the family and your other obligations,

1537
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:34,800
like we want to keep doing that for as long as we can.

1538
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:39,800
And yeah, let's see where we are in, I don't know, six months from now, 18 months from now.

1539
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:42,800
Maybe everyone is using hash tree and everyone is using fips.

1540
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:45,800
And everyone, everyone is using it all in some way.

1541
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:46,800
That would be nice.

1542
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:48,800
Oh, man, you have blisters now.

1543
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:49,800
I feel bad.

1544
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:52,800
Well, I have to stop immediately.

1545
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:53,800
All right, Margie.

1546
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:54,800
Thanks so much.

1547
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:55,800
Thanks.

1548
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:56,800
And I see we're still recording.

1549
01:17:56,800 --> 01:17:57,800
So everything worked.

1550
01:17:57,800 --> 01:17:58,800
Perfect.