All right, and we're live, not live, but we're recording.
And we're live.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that works.
Perfect. That should all work.
And you can see here the, you know, recording, recording.
It records on device as well.
So there is backups, but I don't want to touch the backups.
I don't want to touch the files.
And yeah, very soon,
hashtree, it's going to be hashtree enabled very soon.
Yeah.
So yeah, Marty, talk to me about hashtree.
Let's start with that.
How did you, like, what made you, what made you build out hashtree?
Personnel annoyances with GitHub.
I wanted decentralized Git when looking into alternatives.
But I wasn't satisfied with anything.
I wanted something really simple that is no-sternative.
So I built something that's compatible with Blossom servers.
And pure Blossom servers weren't enough because they actually are.
You can use it in my hashtree tools.
You can push your Git repository onto your Blossom servers.
But why did you need the hashtree layer, basically?
Why did you need to add that for the Git use case?
Because I understand it when it's really big files.
But for the Git use case, what made you come up with hashtree
and implemented.
So hashtree does basically does directories and file chunking
on top of Blossom.
So I guess for the Git use the directorating would be the what we need.
So basically just upload your working directory with the dot Git folder.
So the hashtree.
That main idea is similar to the inside idea.
Inside had paths.
We can just walk here and just do two or three rounds or something.
Because the issue, of course, I mean,
I gather your big fan of content addressing.
But the issue with content addressing is, of course,
that you lose the file system structure.
So you need additional metadata to figure out the file name and the folder name and everything.
And put it back together.
Let's work here.
That's a longer, nicer path.
No, I do have all that hashtree's like a proper file system.
It's like a light version, most are compatible,
most are native version of IPFS, much simpler though.
Yeah.
But if pure Blossom doesn't have that basically, right?
Like that's what was missing.
Yeah, so I have directories and file chunking and encryption.
Encrypted by default.
You can opt out if you want, but.
I use like content hash key encryption, similar to free net,
which was a system back in the day.
So same file always produces the same software text.
So there's that deduplication.
And it's also very helpful for Blossom server maintainers,
when it takes away the moderation liability.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Because you don't even know and can't know what you're hosting.
Yes, so that's important if you ever want to.
You know, like offer your hard disk as a service basically
and just the new store, just encrypted blobs.
Yeah, and have like if someone comes knocking,
you can, yeah, we've cryptographic assurance to say
that you don't have, you don't know what's hosted on your machine.
Yes, and when you ask stop from your peers,
also they don't see what's your request thing.
In addition to Blossom, I have like a web RTC mesh
that works in browsers and servers alike.
So they can connect to each other actually.
You don't need domain names, or as a cell certificate,
or IP addresses, or servers, or anything, unlike Blossom.
So it complements it pretty nicely.
So when you just ask your peers for data by its hash,
if they don't have it, they can forward the request,
similarly to how free net works with the hopes to live
so it could start with, I think it starts with 15 hopes to live.
But it's kind of probabilistic.
So it's sometimes 15, sometimes 14.
So you can't really tell where the request originates.
So it gives layer of privacy.
Yeah, I see.
And I noticed you use it for your development now, right?
Like the GitHub replacement you built,
you actually use it for Irish development?
Yes, yes, I do.
It's really good for agents.
You don't need to set up GitHub API tokens or anything.
That was, I guess, that was my main annoyance,
and the reason why I wanted decentralized Git now, not tomorrow.
Yeah, I think you're probably like the 15th person now
that I talked to in the last two weeks,
that build a GitHub alternative.
Every one seems to be fed up with GitHub.
And I mean, to be fair, it's only downhill from there,
ever since Microsoft took over.
I mean, they have less than 90% uptime now, I think,
and just everything's terrible.
It's going to get worse.
So it's about time we have a promising and working GitHub alternative.
So all your projects use your system based on Hashtree,
like you have Git remotes that use Hashtree for storage, right?
Yeah.
And you use GitHub just as a backup, right?
Yes, yes.
Yeah, you should go check it out.
Hashtree.cc, you can find the install install instructions there.
So basically, you just help install CUH3 and Git remote H3 helper.
So you can just set up an HDH3 remote for your Git repo
and just push there.
It's really simple.
You should try it out.
And you basically just need a blossom server.
And actually, I'm running one on a cloud flare,
which works really well, and only accepts encrypted content.
Awesome, awesome.
And what's still on the roadmap for the Hashtree and GitHub project?
I think it's pretty much there.
I have the web interface, Git.iris.2.
You can go check it out.
It looks pretty much like GitHub with us.
It supports NIP 34,
the issues and pull requests and stuff.
And you mentioned you're gonna,
there was Justin's main criticism.
We don't have a star.
We don't have the GitHub stars.
It was a like, I have likes.
So you got a feature request to change it.
Don't change it to stars.
That's what we want.
Yeah, awesome.
I mean, we played around with it, of course.
And you can do the board.
Even fork reports really easy in the browser,
like in 10 milliseconds or so.
Yeah, I think I forked the Irish audio of what it was.
Yeah.
Talk to me more about all the Irish projects
that you're going on right now.
You're basically rebuilding Spotify,
you're rebuilding YouTube.
As a one-man machine, which some agents.
It's really easy to spin up these demos,
but it's too much to maintain.
I'm here on Monday, Iraq.
So we're an engineering hoping to plant the seed
and get more people interested in it.
I hope it's a good idea that catches on.
I think it is an excellent idea.
I mean, there's other people trying
to build YouTube replacements and so on.
Obviously, we're fighting massive network impacts,
but I think we can build it out in a way
that it's just kind of very much like,
you know, people self-host all kinds of things.
And you just self-host an instance
where you have your music.
And you know, it's not going to go away.
I think what a lot of people have issue
with the platforms like YouTube is a great example.
I have playlists of YouTube videos that I really liked
and I built them up over like many, many years.
And if I open them now, half the videos are gone.
Yes, true.
And I think, you know, like for music and so on,
that's even more devastating.
It's like if you find an artist on some platform
and you just save it and like three years later,
it's gone for some reason.
And I think just out of that,
people will probably set up,
or hopefully set up their own instances.
And if something is readily available and easy to set up,
and you don't even necessarily need to completely self-host
in terms of running all of the infrastructure yourself,
I think that's one of the nostril killer features
is that you can use someone else's resume,
you can use someone else's blossom server.
Yeah, and still build your own little world, basically.
Yeah, and actually I have something called Irish Browser,
which can load these,
it can basically load websites and applications
from Hashtree URLs in a content-addressed way.
So that's how you bypass the web hosting part.
So yeah, awesome.
The same idea, like inside, right?
Kind of similar, yeah.
So that's why we need content addressing
to keep the stuff online and not have five-year old links
break.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's the super power
that content addressing gives you
that where the content lives physically doesn't matter.
Yes, yes.
And in the best case, it lives in multiple places at once.
Yeah, so in Hashtree, your peers also store some of the data.
And you can store your friends data, your follow list on,
extended social graph.
Talk to me a little bit about the peer-to-peer aspect,
because I heard you talking a while ago
about kind of on the nostracite, we obviously
have relays, but relays have their limits.
And I think you like the idea of other people
like this idea as well.
I think Litor and there's some other people
that really like the peer-to-peer idea on the nostracite,
like not necessarily requiring a relay
to transfer information.
And the reason why I'm asking is because this cohort
is focused on mesh networking and just hardware
and mesh networks basically.
And that's obviously, we have a lot of direct data transfer
between peers.
And you mentioned before already that you
have protocols in place so that direct transfer is possible.
How are you thinking about this?
Yeah.
So in addition to Blossom, I have the WebRTC adapter.
It uses nostracilays to find peers
and to do the WebRTC establishment part.
But when you have some a few WebRTC peers,
also does the signaling without needing
nostracilays anymore.
And the native apps are a bit better with this day.
When you have a few IPs stored, you
can just use them and not need a relay domain name source
or certificates or anything.
And you can even think like local first over Wi-Fi or something.
Do you think that's where it's going?
Or do you hope that's where it's going?
Or will we still have relays for a while?
Or will relays just specialize?
I think we'll continue to have relays.
And personally, I still publish.
Well, I have the GitHub myself and my products
pretty much.
So what you still need to publish to the web browsers
and the legacy structures.
So I use direct CloudFlare publish for that.
Yeah, otherwise you'll just be alone.
Yeah, yeah.
And the sad reality is that in web hosting,
you basically need a CD.
And if you want to host a popular website,
that's why it goes down with DDoS attacks or demand
or something.
But the only solution to that is to move,
to peer-to-peer stuff like the Irish browser
I'm developing.
And I hope this content addressing
and NOS to publish, subscribe, would move closer
to the operating system and then over time.
I mean, the main idea that a lot of people have
is that if you have what's discussed in this cohort
in the first week as well, if you have a home node
or even an on-device relay and all those kind of things,
we'll have lots of caching, so to speak,
that's closer to you.
And you'll just have layers of caches
just by having multiple relays and multiple instances
of the same data closer to you physically, basically.
Do you think that this will be enough to in the long run,
not necessarily replace CloudFlare,
but have similar guarantees, in some sense?
Yes, I think so.
Maybe DNS also works a bit like this,
so you have a, but DNS is hierarchical system,
so we don't want that, but DNS has levels of caching,
which I guess work pretty fine.
Yeah, we'll try to build out no DNS,
so that's kind of a similar idea to DNS,
but without the global view.
Yeah, without the global source of cool.
Yeah, I don't necessarily believe in globally unique names.
I think we could have more like a drop-down menu,
like a search, drop-down search that we have on social media,
where you're just typing something in.
Yeah, absolutely.
It points to some identity in your social graph.
So what you're saying is you can't have all three properties
of Sukus trying to, because I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I've been harping on about this for a long time,
but the idea is then, if you try to look up a name,
my go-to example is always like Pablo,
who is Pablo for me?
There's many Pablo's, and in my web of trust,
I know from my perspective it should be clear
which endpub I'm talking about when I say Pablo.
Yes.
And from someone else, it's a very different Pablo.
And so I think that's the only way how you can solve it, basically.
Which is, of course, you'll never have a precise answer.
And I think a lot of people, especially a lot of computer science people,
they don't like that.
They don't like the messy.
They would like to have an exact solution, an exact deterministic solution.
Yeah, it requires a different way of thinking
of sometimes confuses people when you change these paradigms.
Also it confuses the LLMs, and they try to be always pushed, pushed to GitHub
or use some blockchain, Ethereum solution or something.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think it was you that mentioned yesterday that we have this opportunity now
to, like one of the reasons why you're working on this stuff,
is to steer the LLMs at the future of technology
into a freedom-tech direction, right?
Like we have this window of opportunity where it's like,
if all of us would stop working on that, then kind of, you know,
like stripe and cloud flare and GitHub would win by default, basically,
because that's all the LLMs now.
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's coding is going to be done by AI agents pretty soon,
like in a few years.
I don't think we're going to need too much human involvement.
So now I feel like we have this, yes, not a window of opportunity.
How much do you still code by hand?
How much track coding do you still do?
Basically zero.
Yeah, there you go.
We are already there, like, yeah.
But I still have to guide the process.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think human taste and human judgment
won't go away for a long while.
But I think just developing, I mean, to me,
it seems like the best people, in some sense,
they are leaning into the tools, the hardest,
and know how to use them.
And it's all about kind of moving some levels up in the abstraction layer
and really steering and guiding the process and the project, as you say.
But you're actually not riding code line by line.
No, that's kind of a waste of time by now, in some sense.
Yes.
So what's your current setup?
But when did you, like, talk me through your AI progression over the last,
I guess, like, 18 months or two years or so.
I think maybe even in the early days of Noster, like, 2022,
well, it's for me, it was the early days of Noster when I started.
Even then, I think you're very early.
Chat GPT.
Not only it's a Bitcoin, but also to Noster.
So we used to copy and paste code to the chat GPT prompt.
But did you use tap completion as well?
Yes, co-pilot, yeah.
But I think the major change was last year, 2025, end of November,
when Claude Opus something came out.
And it was felt like the first actually capable agent, according to a tool,
which took the human out of the loop for many kinds of things.
That's when I started working on hash tree.
It's an idea that I've had for a long time, but all in all,
I'm able to make it happen with agenting tools.
Yeah, yeah, Justin mentioned that as well in terms of,
I mean, he moved on from building a browser,
but he talked to the guy who built Ladybird, the alternative browser implementation.
And he mentioned that, like, pre-proper agentic coding,
it wasn't clear whether they were going to make it,
and they would be able to actually succeed with the project.
And now it's like, no question.
Now it's like, Chris, clear, they're going to make it.
And it sounds like for you and your project, that's similar,
where you can build way more easily, way faster with the agentic tools.
Yes, yes, it's like 10 or 100 text, my capabilities.
How do you think this is going to end in some sense?
I mean, the next set of models is just around the corner.
We'll have more tool integration, more harnesses, like OpenClone,
all those kind of things, like, everyone is working on that.
Basically, there's literally trillions of dollars being thrown at the problem.
Yeah, I guess we're going to have more open-cloth features
in the mainstream codex and the cloud stuff,
like memory, memory, and like better, longer-running agentic tools,
and scheduling, and so on.
And what have we?
Are you worried from a kind of big picture,
a macro perspective in terms of AI is going to take everyone's job?
And you know, if you don't have bit kind of something,
then you'll just be wrecked.
Yes, I'm a bit worried.
I used to be really optimistic about everything,
and with, like, a Bitcoin optimist.
You're not anymore.
Bitcoin is hope.
I guess it still is, but AI stuff can be a bit scary.
Where, how do we actually compete against the machine itself?
What economic value can humans provide?
I mean, I used to say a couple of years ago,
Bitcoin is singularity insurance,
because it's the one thing that machines actually can't make more of.
So just hold on to your Bitcoin.
That's a good point, still.
But yeah, I mean, it's, in some sense, money is a thing between humans.
So I'm actually not too worried.
It's just about, like, as long as you're still able to provide value to society
in whatever way, shape, or form, you should be able to make money.
But it's kind of ironic that, you know,
the white-collar people are going to be made obsolete first.
Everyone who went to university, especially if you study computer science,
you know, you're in danger, and if you're a blue-collar plumber or whatever,
you're not as much in danger right now.
And until the robots come.
Exactly.
But that's still a little bit out.
Yeah.
You study computer science as well, right?
Like, you have a computer science background.
Yeah, yeah, I didn't study too much.
I just went to the programming courses, which I found interesting.
I just wanted to get a job as soon as possible,
and that's what I did, basically.
Yeah, you discovered Bitcoin, pre-bidcoin being a thing,
and being able to work on Bitcoin in any meaningful way, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And actually, I made my first last commit to Bitcoin, I think, in early 2010.
That's when, around when I got my first full-time job and had less time, unfortunately.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bitcoin was not done.
Yeah, I heard that you talked to Knud about that.
I'm not going to grill you about the early days, but how come you jumped into
Noster so early as well?
Was it just kind of...
Because I know you wanted to build something like Noster yourself as well, right?
Yeah, I had actually built something on a different stack.
What was the stack?
It was gone.
Gone.js.
And now it's gone?
Doesn't exist anymore, I assume.
I think it does exist as a code library.
Okay.
But my system was very similar, like a social network based on public keys.
So that's...
But I had worked on it for like two, three years by the late 2022.
And I was ready to move on, like, get a real job because it wasn't like...
Yeah, it wasn't an attraction, yeah.
But that's when Noster happened, I guess.
Well, Jack Dorsey joined Noster and it became popular.
And I got excited about it, the community around it and everything.
And then I was able to port Iris onto Noster very quickly because of that.
So Iris was the thing you built, pre-noster, that was the name?
Yes.
It's a rainbow, right?
A variety of few points and a variety of identities.
Yeah, Iris means apparently rainbow in ancient Greek.
And yes, that symbolizes the plurality of voices and
Iris of the eye, it's named after rainbow's colors.
So you understood intuitively kind of pre-noster already that there's not going to be a global.
Not going to be global.
There is no global.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I've had this social graph idea for a long time.
I think it's the only proper solution to fighting spam and other unwanted content because proof of work is not going to make it tinder normal users more than spammers.
Yeah, I think a combination of both is, like there are some things where proof of work is useful, I guess.
But for most regular interactions, I agree, you have to rely on Web of Trust mostly.
Are you happy with kind of the current state of Noster?
No, I'm not happy.
Like...
No, not even a little bit in terms of...
It's actually something that you wanted to have that actually caught on a little bit.
Yeah.
It's a good thing, right?
Let's do one more round and then we'll go down to the sea if that's okay.
Yeah, Noster is still great and we need public key-based identities, not domain-based.
Yes, so it's the right thing to do, but we could always do better.
So what made you say instantly you're unhappy?
What's broken?
Or what could be better?
Or what are people misunderstanding, maybe?
The stuff we build should solve problems for people, and I don't think Noster as a public medium is solving problems to most people.
Most people are fine with posting on X or something.
Like for public discussions, you want to go to the largest network, largest audience.
So I think we might need to think other uses for Noster.
I've been saying private chats, private groups could be something that actually doesn't depend on the network effect.
And that's where Noster can actually solve problems and be much easier to deploy and use than something centralized where you need to register, create accounts and phone numbers and email addresses and all that.
We can be like signal, but better.
Jonathan mentioned something similar yesterday, he mentioned that MLS slash marmor, slash white noise is the most important project on Noster right now.
He thinks, would you agree with that or what's your thoughts on MLS?
Well, definitely, like forward secrecy, message history, secrecy and all that, we need on Noster and we don't tab it properly.
Well, maybe we do. So there's MLS and there's also been developing Noster double ratchet for a while.
Yeah, I'm aware, which is signals algorithm.
What's the status of this project right now?
There was a while ago when you jumped into that, right?
Yeah, so double ratchet's worked really well between two devices for a long time.
Established a session between two devices works really well.
But what when you want multiple devices per user, what if you want to conduct people out of the blue over Noster, how to make that reliable?
Send the message to all their devices.
And then you want to have chat groups.
That's when the complexity grows.
I've been working on this stuff.
It's getting to a point where it might be actually quite usable soon.
We just tested, you could go to chat.iris.to.
We were just testing it yesterday.
I created, I invited everyone in our table by scanning a QR code and it worked perfectly.
You can have groups and secure private messaging on Noster.
How big can the groups get?
That's a good question.
I guess similar limits are signal, I imagine.
So you need to establish sessions with each participant separately and send them your group key.
You can use the same group key to encrypt all of them.
So all your messages in the group will pirate ship.
That's the pirate ship.
You're going to miss that unfortunately.
But it's tradition that after the last demo day at Summer and Engineering, we go on the pirate ship.
So I just wanted you to see it.
That's cool.
That's the ship that discovered Manera.
It's a replica, like original sized replica of the ship.
It's awesome.
It's well worth checking it out.
And you'll see dolphins and whales and people throwing up because it's actually quite rocky.
So theoretically, MLS scales to larger groups and double ratchet.
But as far as I understand, it also requires...
It has much more strict consensus requirements.
So everyone in the group needs to be on the same page.
And that might be a bit difficult on Noster with different relay sets and more decentralization.
So that's something...
I guess that's what's being keeping me on double ratchet, moving to MLS.
I think that's what Jesus landed on as well in his kind of...
He played around with it quite a bit.
And his kind of quote-unquote criticism or one of the issues that we might run into long-term.
Yeah.
But just...
I appreciate their work very much.
Secure messaging on Noster is something we need in one way or another or whatever.
In the end, it also...
It just kind of has to work in practice.
And it probably...
I talked about this with Pablo quite a bit.
Once you have a certain group size,
it doesn't make sense to...
You're not going to have any privacy.
If it's thousands of people, you don't have three spooks in there, at least.
It's just screencast everything to whatever agencies they work for.
Or take screenshots and leak it.
So it's kind of...
I don't know.
Perfect encryption, perfect forward secrecy, all those kinds of things.
It only matters if you can trust that the group participants are honest, basically, in some sense.
Yes, yes.
You want to take a picture?
Yes, sure.
It's a very full money around.
It's very famous.
Flowers on CDs.
For the folks at home.
Yeah, no.
It's an audio-only thing that we're doing by design.
I'm not a fan of video content.
I think I will generate a movie from this.
Yeah, that's the goal.
That's the goal.
I didn't dig into that yet.
And now, for a little bit, it's going to be loud.
But the goal is...
We're going to cross over.
And then we're going to drop down here.
I think that's the easiest one.
And then we can...
Hopefully we'll have a little bit of silence at last car noises.
Directly at the sea.
And then we can walk all the way to the yellow fork.
That's kind of the goal.
So you'll have to scream for a little bit.
Are you sure you're still recording?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Can you ever know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, no, no.
It's so far, no single recording has failed.
All right.
And I think I mentioned it briefly yesterday.
So far, only one conversation has failed.
It was with Justin when we got really, really drunk.
Oh, yeah.
And he was completely unreleasable.
So we got drunk on beer.
And then on cheeshas.
So that's what happened.
That was a really bad idea.
So we're not going to do it again.
But up to now everything, like I don't want to jinx it,
but up to now everything worked perfectly
with the recordings always.
Right.
So yeah, you have like five or six projects cooking now.
Are you still actively working on Irish, the main client right now?
Not super actively.
After a long break, I did some pull requests again.
I guess Irish is kind of nice sometimes.
So it has the social graph, which works pretty well.
I think maybe Snort has those is using my social graph library
or something that Kiran's doing.
I don't know, ZapStream maybe.
So it's pretty nice because sometimes people complain about
this NSFW spam.
But you don't get that basically in Irish.
You might miss new users who are not in the social graph as well.
So it's a trade-off.
But I like it.
I don't need to see everyone's post.
And there's like, oh, absolutely.
I've got users in my default social graph.
I mean, the default that's loaded on Irish.
Yeah.
Could be improved though, but.
Did you look into the other web of trash solutions,
like Relator running on Context VM and Vertex by picked the social graph guy?
No, I haven't looked into it.
I guess Relayside filtering can be fine if you only use those relays.
But then you need to trust the Relay operator.
So that's why I wanted to do it on the client side even in the browser.
Yeah, I see.
But it's good to see all those things popping up.
I think it's the right solution to all that stuff.
So your first contact with Noster was then basically
porting the existing Irish to Noster, is that right?
Yes.
Talk to me a little bit about your Noster development journey.
Actually, we had, I must confess, I have a synth.
I have a shit coin.
I'm aware.
I did my homework.
Yeah.
We did like a social, something called social nouns.
Nouns is the Ethereum DAO.
I don't know, 50 million in their treasury or some very large amount.
So it was like algorithmically generated.
Yeah, the randomly mined avatar, basically, and auctioned them, right?
Yeah, I'm auctioned them.
And every NFT would be a boat.
And you did the finished version of that, right?
Yeah, like finished culture with finished alcohol products, whatever.
That's okay.
Like you can, you know, everyone, everyone, every sinner has a past.
No, how does it go?
Every saint has a past, every sinner, a future.
That was around the time when I was very desperate.
About the quit.
Iris.
This was my last effort to write.
Last hooray?
To try to make it work?
Yeah.
But it didn't really get interaction either.
Maybe we were not scummy enough or something.
We just shot it now when I returned the funds to the buyers.
But when I made Iris most of the client, it still had Ethereum login.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Okay.
People were like, what the fuck is this?
So that was the first friction point to get rid of.
Yeah.
I wasn't actually too active in the Bitcoin scene before Noster for a long while.
I wasn't familiar with the Maxi stuff and all that very much.
So it was an interesting cultural experience.
But in fact, I liked it.
I found that, well, the Bitcoin Maxi is to be in many ways more admirable people than some other.
Groups.
I think they have their reason, right?
I think Jonathan mentioned that as well.
He had, you know, not one gap year, but like seven gap years.
He left the space for seven years.
Yes.
And now returned with FIPs, basically.
Yes.
And I think it's super interesting to have people like you, you know, like very active in the early days.
You manage the forums.
You ran Bitcoin org for a while, right?
Yes.
And just basically running maybe like the third Bitcoin node or something.
Yeah.
And exchange.com.
Yeah.
Where I sold over the 30,000 bitcoins.
Yeah, there you go.
And then for, you know, like life reasons, you just, you know, you moved on to other things.
Yes.
And I think in your guys' absence, you know, lots of Bitcoin maximalists were minted just because the shit-coining was so obscene.
Of the, how should I put it?
The understanding of Bitcoin was so shallow that this counter movement formed of people just like being really extreme about everything.
And I think, but I think it's fair.
It's like once you understand proof of work and once you understand kind of the reality of monetary competition and liquidity competition,
you'll realize it's kind of a winner takes all environment.
And we see this now, like Bitcoin is the only proof of work chain that matters, right?
Like nothing else exists.
And how these all hangs together.
And kind of, if you build a new system, I really appreciate it.
You mentioning that on, on, on Knewt Show, it's, you realized early on, you were in, like pre-noster, you were already interested in building a,
in building a social network thing running on public infrastructure, basically.
And you realized that you don't need a blockchain for that.
Yes.
So you weigh ahead of the curve because all the web, three people and so on.
Like there's lots of people that, that have similar ideas, but they all launched their own shit coin.
Yes.
And that's just, the Bitcoin maximalists will, will tell you that that's completely unnecessary.
Yeah.
I think even if they had some good ideas, the economic structure takes them to the wrong direction immediately.
Oh, absolutely. Like the incentives are completely messed up and you just have a money printer.
And you just, you want to, once you have a money printer, you're going to scam even harder.
That's just how it goes.
I guess what, that's why the Noster crowd has been so much nicer in many ways,
because people are in for the right reasons.
Bit like early Bitcoiners who didn't actually have a monetary incentive.
At the time when Bitcoin didn't even have an exchange rate maybe or was very low worth.
Are you worried about Noster being actually successful and we having an eternal November moment?
No, no, no.
Is it November, September?
Now I'm tripping up.
Eternal September, eternal November?
No.
I don't know, eternal something.
Noster doesn't have the same incentive stuff.
It's just a protocol.
But what I mean is like in the early internet days, it was just a certain group of people that,
you know, there was a certain internet subculture.
Now we definitely have a Noster subculture.
And if we have, I don't know, 10 million people streaming in,
the culture will definitely change, right?
Just like the Bitcoin culture changed.
Yes, but it's okay.
It's okay?
Yes.
We'll find our groups.
Again, no global.
It'll happen.
Little smaller groups.
Outside of your own projects, what are the most exciting Noster projects for you?
We can just continue here.
I guess FIPS, what we've been talking about here a lot,
like the network routing based on Noster public case,
where you don't send to an IP address, but to a Noster public key.
And it will route it to the right place.
So that's very low level.
Are you generally interested in the low level stuff?
Yes.
No high level client that has you excited?
Yes.
Well, what are you excited about in the high level?
I don't know.
I mean, I'm kind of more a generalist and all over the stack in some sense.
I'm really excited about kind of the proliferation and maturation of clients.
Like Wisp, for example, is a great example.
You know, one guy was able to sit down and actually build his dream client in,
I don't know what feels like two weeks, you know.
These micro apps might be a good trend instead of putting everything into a single app.
Like I've done with Iris and I guess many other apps.
I mean, this is the worst offender.
Yeah, I think.
Maybe like it makes sense to have a shell like Noster browser.
Yeah.
Damos is going in the right direction.
They will call.
With note deck, human?
Yeah, note deck which has a very efficient Noster DB,
which I have contributed to social graph stuff.
They will allow some sort of apps within.
Yeah.
Note deck.
And then there's Iris browser, of course.
I'm not doing the whole browser stack.
I'm just using the native web view.
So I don't need to implement the whole browser, just the hash tree loading part.
Yeah.
And peer-to-peer.
And what has your exciting about FIPs?
Why was your immediate answer FIPs kind of the most exciting project?
I guess you need to start from the first principles of 10 times.
And our stack still runs on quite centralized internet.
So DNS and IP before are their worst offenders?
In a sense, maybe DNS is worse than IPV.
Well, IP, internet protocol and IP addresses.
And you think FIPs has legs?
It's kind of proliferate.
I mean, there's already like at least six or seven people building on top of it.
They're all here, right?
No.
Yeah.
Well, I guess reticulum is kind of similar.
But I was asking Jonathan yesterday.
And his answer as I understood was basically it's optimized.
It's hyper optimized for low bandwidth links like Laura or something.
Yeah.
And FIPs can be more universal.
Yeah.
But yes, I think definitely makes it makes sense to have that sense.
To have that separation, like identity as the lowest layer,
publicly, that you talk to instead of IP address.
That brings me to your other project, NosterVPN.
Yes, I have so many.
Because every device has an endpuff, of course.
Yes.
And that's how you create your own virtual private network.
Yes.
Talk to me about that a little bit.
How did you come up with it and what made you build it?
And how does it work now?
Yeah.
That was also that spawned from personal annoyances.
So I went down this whole Mac mini open-close, rabbit hole.
As many of us did.
Yes.
First I was running it on a Hitzner bare metal server.
But I wanted my own computer to do.
Yeah.
So I have the data and everything running on my own hardware at my home.
So then I needed a way to connect past the N80 and that.
And I installed tail scale.
But out of the box, it was asking for some Google or GitHub login details.
So I was really annoyed with that.
I started wiping it.
Triggered you into building an alternative straight up.
Yes.
I was like one or two days.
I was able to have nostril VPN, which did like the connection.
It was using wire guard or cloud flares version of wire guard boring ton underneath.
And it was establishing the link, like negotiating the IP addresses and ports over a nostril realize.
So you don't need user accounts.
You just set the end pops.
You want to connect to you.
And use that basically in production for yourself and have been using it for a while now, right?
Yeah.
Yes.
So what's your setup like?
Talk me through it.
Just Mac mini and MacBook laptops and nostril VPN installed.
And everything tunnels through your Mac mini basically.
And you're in it.
You're in the same VPN just by everything connects to the Mac mini and to each other.
No, no, I can SSH or screen share into the Mac mini.
I'm working on exit node functionality actually.
So I don't personally need it for this setup.
But I think that would be cool.
Some people need it done.
Oh, absolutely.
And later on, I want to have like cashew incentivized exit node market.
Okay.
So you can basically rent out your exit node in some sense.
Like you can just provide exit node service.
Yes.
And you get like a you can get like a residential exit point.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's that's why I think where it necessarily has to go.
Because if you just use a commercial VPN, doesn't matter which one.
It's always just a matter of time until the IP addresses are blacklisted by YouTube and whatever.
It's like just that will just continue.
Like it will just get worse and worse and worse.
There's going to be the fully KYC normie internet.
And if you're behind the VPN, you're not going to be able to access anything.
Yeah.
And there's going to be our whatever mesh.
It muster internet.
Yeah.
Nosternet.
I think if I think many people would actually want to run such a way to get some like every
AI agent out there could learn some sites.
Yeah.
That's the hope kind of for the for the for the larger vision that like Dorsi mentioned
that recently as well.
Kind of the killer feature of both Bitcoin and Noster is that it is permissionless.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you need those kind of services to make the permissionlessness work because like everyone
who ever set up OpenClaw knows that the first thing you need is like 15 different API keys
that you kind of you know you need to KYC for basically.
Yeah.
Not easy to get.
That's actually one of the rare things that I'm optimistic about in the future.
Like I think Noster and Bitcoin have the fundamentals why they're permissionless.
So actually I think agents aren't going to want to use them over any third party service.
They can just recursively develop them into that.
The same part why I'm recording these things by the way to get the propaganda out and feed it
into the agents that they know what's up.
Yes.
And I'm only half kidding.
I think you know Gwern.
He has a, he wrote Bitcoin is worse is better in the very early days.
He has like an awesome blog.
He also wrote about the scaling loss.
He's a kind of, he's not really a researcher.
He's just a guy that you know doesn't has too much time on his hands and is really good at researching stuff and writing.
And he basically mentioned that if you don't put your thoughts out now,
you're going to be made obsolete in the future because everything that doesn't exist kind of on the internet now.
Yeah, you need to get it into the LLAMs basically is his idea.
We're looping back to what we talked, what we talked before.
So any other projects you have on, that you want to work on, any other annoyances, any other,
it's just you want to scratch for yourself.
Or it's like 12 different projects enough for now.
There's so much going on.
That's like I said, that's why I'm here like to push these ideas out there.
Like let's see it maybe.
I'm hoping someone will find some of this interesting and continue developing.
So I don't, I still don't have the bandwidth.
Maybe in a year or so things develop so fast.
I can just have a swarm of agents do all this stuff.
And wave around it.
Just talk about things and they will just create themselves magically basically.
Yeah, we just feed this for the cast into the AI.
That's what I'm doing basically. That's how I'm by coding these days.
I'm just I'm just rambling for a long time and then just feed it into various agents and something will pop out.
But you just mentioned that's why you're here.
What made you come here in the first place? I would be very curious.
I was very surprised when I saw that you were coming.
I guess I wanted to visit this beautiful place for a while.
How come you even know about tower engineering?
Like let's start there.
We're very bad at marketing, you know.
I guess I knew about it somehow, but I have family life.
So it's not I'm not totally free to travel anytime.
So after I published most of VPN, I think Jonathan Corrigan,
message me.
Did you introduce him to me or someone introduced him to me?
He asked me to come to Mother Eros.
I said, why not?
That was awesome.
Yeah, I'm very humble that you're here.
I mean, you know, like it's...
It doesn't get much better than that.
It was like week before.
Yeah.
Week before that I decided to come.
All right, all right, all right.
What did you think about the program so far?
So we're at the end of...
It's the weekend now.
So we participated for one week.
We're after the first week.
What was your impression?
It's awesome.
It's a great filter when people need to spend their time on money
to come participate.
People are here for the right reasons.
They're really enthusiastic about what they're doing.
And they do meaningful stuff.
It's really intense, like from morning to evening,
you work on stuff, code intensely,
and then you socialize the exchange ideas,
listen to presentations to your demos and your lunch talks.
You see all this amazing mesh radios around you.
I think that's the only downside,
that it's almost like two intents.
Every single time I almost burn out,
just kind of my social batteries are drained,
and my brain is overloaded with like a million ideas.
And just everyone is, you know,
like operating on such a high level,
everyone is an expert in their own field, basically.
And it's almost impossible to, you know,
like be caught up and participate in every single conversation,
because it's just like, what do I know about FIPS, you know?
And Jonathan is standing next to me
and explaining all kinds of, you know,
intricacies of network communication.
And I'm just, my brain just melts every single time,
like those kind of things happen.
So that's the one downside of server engineering,
that it's like almost two intents.
I'm not sure how long I could keep up with this.
Normal life is totally the opposite.
And that's the funny contrast that, like,
lots of people are massive introverts
and just, you know, computer scientists and programmers and so on,
and just getting them to participate in such a program
that's so intense and also so collaborative
and like socially draining.
It's an interesting experiment.
But to me, it's amazing that people are actually coming
and enjoying it and so on.
Yeah, I mean, having beautiful Madera helps.
Yeah, but I think of it, it's kind of my childhood or teenage dream
that I'm living here, like, packing away with people
on a beautiful island and doing what I want.
Awesome, awesome.
How did you, like, you had some very interesting ideas early on, right?
Like, that's also why you discovered Bitcoin so early on.
Like, how...
Tell me how you got into the computer stuff in the first place
and how you ended up studying computer science.
I've always been a gamer, I guess.
What did you play?
We had those games, those computers,
where I started with all the retro-dose.
Frogger.
I played, like, Keen.
Oh, Commander Keen, nice.
Yes.
And the sky roads.
Nice.
I remember all those.
I had a conversation, one, and warlords.
Well, many classics.
We had a thriving gaming scene in Finland as well, like,
finished a floppy disk games.
Yeah, I guess I've always been into computers,
this introverted guy, better with computers than humans.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So gaming was your entry drug, same for me, by the way.
Yeah, yeah.
Some sort of fascination computers since childhood.
So did you do kind of early networking games as well,
like building IPX-aspects, token ring networks,
and using serial computer cables to plug computers
to gather those kind of things?
We had LAN parties and stuff like that.
But you already had routers and switches, or no.
When was it?
Do you remember your first LAN party?
We only started doing that really in high school, actually.
Okay.
Right dollar.
Okay, that was already operating system was that
it was already like Windows 2000 and T, something like that.
Yeah, XP.
XP, okay.
Yeah.
So I still remember in the kind of MS-DOS days trying
to do networking and just kind of the hell of that.
Everything is so much easier these days, even with, you know,
Mastering Fips.
Yeah.
I guess I was a rebel since my teenage years when I started growing
my hair long and listening to heavy metal music and wearing black
and playing heavy metal bands.
I want to see pictures one day, you with long hair.
I don't have any good pictures from that period.
What a shame.
But you still play, right?
You're still?
Yes, playing a task.
Happy to play in Satoshi Rokamoto.
Yeah, nice to have a long time.
I have a reason to practice again.
Nice.
That's a nice place, by the way.
That's where the locals go.
It's like a public bath place, more or less.
You want to have the other direction to see how long we can go?
I still have like 20 minutes in me in terms of brain power.
Air B and B is the same way.
That's the same way.
Oh, okay.
You want to just continue?
Or we could continue.
Yeah.
Let's go to your place directionally.
Yeah.
All right, that's fine.
Let's just, I just hope we're the background noise is manageable.
But that's a nice thing about doing the walking conversations in the sun.
It has a natural time limit, because like for me,
at least after 90 minutes, I'm cooked.
Yes.
I can't concentrate anymore.
Yeah.
Like in a Fallout game series, you could choose to play chess against this computer in this
nuclear reactor place, but then you get irradiated.
So you have a time limit.
Same idea, same principle.
So for you, it was gaming computers, computer science.
Yes.
And during your studies, you got in touch with Bitcoin.
Yes.
Also, I was in his part by pirate day, and rebelliousness of it.
And I knew all the founders that are soon dead.
Yeah.
Who I've actually talked to.
And I guess, was it Gottfried or something?
Yeah.
Yeah, he got very disillusioned.
Like there is a keynote of him where he just basically was like fully black-filled,
and it's like, it's over the internet is dead, and we lost.
So what do you think about that, would you?
No, torrents are still running.
But we could do better.
And I think we will, like peer-to-peer ups,
we're unable to compete in user experience against big tech companies.
But no, the tables are turning with LLM agents.
Like software is so cheap to create that you can make amazing decentralized experience.
And like you said before, the Bitcoin and Noster got the basics right.
And I think if we do our job well, then the UX in the end will even be better.
Yes.
Because there will be less friction.
Yes, absolutely.
Yes.
And it will work without the internet in some cases.
I like that you're still disoptimistic after, you know, like so many years.
Yeah.
Most people go crazy, lose their minds, or like, you know.
But we're only like four months into the AI agent craziness.
That's true.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm not sure how this is going to go.
Like the OpenClaw phenomenon is definitely interesting.
I think it's going to be harder to use, in some sense, in a little while.
Like today.
It's for Epic announced that they're going to put the brakes on OpenClaw usage.
You're not allowed to use third-party harnesses anymore.
What if you are a subscription?
I have to pick socks.
I only use codecs.
It's much metric-coder.
What I do want to use local, at some point, local layer.
And you think the models will definitely get there?
Yes.
You can just run everything locally?
Yes, I think so.
I hope sooner.
I'll talk about that later.
What's your guess at an ETA?
Like when can we, when can you run local models on your Mac Mini?
And it will work equally well as it does for you right now, with codecs?
I guess next year, latest.
Next year, latest?
I think so.
All right.
Now you have to lead the way by the way.
I don't know where we go.
Whatever.
We can walk around.
Less is like three minutes coming in.
All right.
Let's see.
This is a nice restaurant.
Yeah, that's very nice.
A little bit of restaurant atmosphere in between.
I've never heard anyone.
So, so I'm, what I'm hearing is that you're very optimistic about certain aspects of
Noster, very optimistic about locally run agents.
Yes.
And very optimistic about freedom tech in general.
Yeah.
Yes.
Is it fair?
Yeah.
There's certain, like, centralization aspect to AI, I guess, with the data centers and stuff.
But then on the, on the other hand, you will be able to compress AI on.
So many edge devices, low power devices.
Like, now we even have the ASICs that are really fast and performant.
But they're hard coded to some certain open source, open weight model, I guess.
Are you still optimistic about Bitcoin as well?
Yeah.
I am.
The fundamental something changed.
Fun fact, by the way, you can, the restaurant we just walked through the exit Bitcoin.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
We went there yesterday.
Yeah.
Awesome.
To me, lots of people that are less optimistic, they actually, I get the feeling they actually don't
use Bitcoin.
They actually kind of are on the sidelines and are sitting on Bitcoin just because whatever,
whatever headline just hit.
Yeah.
But Bitcoin in payments also needs to solve a problem, I think.
And it's not doing a great job at that always.
Like, we need to integrate payments to the existing networks.
Like, like, was it square?
Square, to me?
Yeah, yeah.
It's just integrated.
They just turned it on.
Yeah.
But they need to make it like, you don't either want us separately ask to use Bitcoin.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
Do you still have 15 minutes or so?
Because I would suggest we just go one more ring down there.
Because if we go up, we're just going to be.
Exhausted.
Yeah.
Huffing and puffing and just sweating into the microphone.
But yeah, I mean, the square thing obviously is big.
And yeah, it's amazing how fast they were able to do that in some sense.
Like, I think they beat their own internal timelines.
Yeah.
And I guess that's where it can actually solve a problem when you integrate it.
It actually saves the merchant money in transaction fees.
I think in terms of problem solving, it's the same for Noster as well.
It's, if you have a relatively stable and normal Western life,
you're not kind of the target demographic.
Yeah.
But if you work in a, you know, kind of what people would consider a questionable industry
and you just get the platform, then the bank, then so on all the time,
then it suddenly becomes very appealing.
And I think what we have on the Noster side is,
I think the political climate will only heat up.
Yeah.
I don't think it will normalize anytime soon.
Yeah.
And so depending on kind of the, the powers that be,
you'll just be the platform for different things and opinions.
Yes.
And the platform's ex.
They have no choice.
Yeah.
Yeah, the platforms have their own rules on their own,
like feed algorithms.
You might want to avoid.
Yeah, we see this all the time where new platforms spring up
because they promised they're not going to center.
And there was like, you know, like there was through social
and there was whatever, like, you know, some Christian run platforms
that, you know, free speech, free speech.
And then you post boops and you're banned, you know?
Yeah.
Like it's just a different kind of censorship.
Yeah.
Especially that brings me to another point of mind.
Besides lowering the cost of software development,
AI also, I think it will eat away network effects,
because your AI agent can easily query like that.
Let's go here again.
That's your AI agent can query like 10 different platforms easily.
So it doesn't.
It doesn't.
I see network.
That's a good point, actually, because the interface will be your agent.
And not.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
I never thought about it in that light.
Yeah.
And it will also pose to all these platforms.
Yeah.
And you can eventually just use most.
If you use your agent as the interface,
the interface that comes bundled with the platform is less important.
Yeah.
And that's going to be interesting to have businesses like X
that rely on the precisely on the network.
Yeah.
Also in terms of infrastructure, migrating away from something
is now way easier.
If you use your AI agent as the interface,
the interface that comes bundled with the platform is less important.
And the thing is now way easier if you have a capable agent.
You can just do it in a very short amount of time,
with very little headache.
So yeah, that's a really good point.
Yeah.
It's a kind of a, you know, auroboros effect,
kind of the snake of big tech eating its own tail,
destroying its own network effect in some sense.
Yes.
But I think it will definitely be a fight.
I think right now,
lots of AI users just subsidized, right?
And they will try to box everyone into their own ecosystems.
I mean, that's already happening now,
like I mentioned with Anthropic and so on.
So what have you used any kind of Noster-based AI routing services
like Roucher or something like that, or PPQ?
No.
I'm not comfortable sending my prompts to some random folks.
Actually, I'd rather give them to OpenA,
and it's interesting.
Send my personal agents know what's on your hard drive.
Yeah, yeah, even if you don't.
I don't use my personal,
give it access to my personal stuff.
I have my Mac Mini's for development.
So do you know anything about Maple?
Yes, yes, I know.
No, it's...
My problem is,
it's still trust me, bro, in some way.
Like you still need to trust, maybe, NVIDIA's signatures.
Yeah, okay, I see.
Yeah, I mean, that's the problem with trusting trust.
How paranoid do you want to be?
You're still sending your prompts to someone else.
Yeah, yeah.
So, ideal for you would be just to run everything on your local hardware.
That would be part of the goal, right?
I guess Maple can be better if the quality is sufficient.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, I just wanted to point out the project
because there is, of course, lots of people trying to make this work
and lots of people kind of trying to provide alternatives
to kind of big tech, in some sense.
Yeah.
And yeah, it's just going to take a little while to mature
and also be competitive in terms of price, I think, the most.
Like the biggest issue right now is just like if you use the big services,
like you benefit from the subsidies so much,
it's just so much cheaper.
Yeah, and yeah.
But I guess some sort of erosion of privacy is inevitable in some way
because information gets so much more accessible with all the new technology,
with increasing bandwidth to process it with AI.
So, are you hinting on kind of also the anonymization and those kind of things?
Because I would argue that what we talked about before,
permissionless and frictionless nature of Bitcoin and Oster helps you privacy-wise.
Like, nothing stops you from spinning up a new amp up and just doing things.
Yeah, I hope it can also help.
Yeah, I can also use to increase improve privacy and everything
and develop better privacy protocols and all that.
Just occurred to me, like if you use a local agent as your interface,
they can't even fingerprint your typing,
because it runs through an agent first.
You know what I mean?
Yes.
If you let your agent shit post for you,
then you'll be insulated from text and type fingerprinting.
Yeah.
Someone was demoing as you see traffic analysis.
Oh, yeah, that makes that thing.
Yeah.
So even if the traffic is encrypted, even if you use Tor,
you can identify traffic patterns.
Yeah.
As far as I see using like noise,
like using 100% of your bandwidth for noise and then embedding signal
in there, no one then.
Yeah.
His own solution to that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's, again, it's going to be a long battle kind of
making FreedomTank more widespread than it currently is.
I remain hopeful because it is more widespread than it ever was in some sense.
And just in like very normal, like using a VPN, for example,
is very normal.
Like half the podcasts that listen to they have VPN advertisements and so on.
Like 15 years ago, not knowing really knew what a VPN was.
You know what I mean?
It's like that's kind of that improved massively.
And I hope that kind of just, you know, using VPN is like using a more
private internet in some sense.
It's like, you know, a condom for your router, basically.
And it's a normal thing now.
And I hope that in the future, it will just be normal to use more private money,
for example, you know, or also more private identity.
Yeah.
Like to the nostto point.
How do you think about identity in general?
I would be very curious because that was kind of your first foray, right?
Like the identity question is what got you interested in the whole,
like in the pre-noster day, basically.
I'm asking because you're operating under your clear name and have your face
as your profile picture, those kind of things.
How do you think about online identity or identity in cyberspace?
I know it's a broad question, but I'd be curious.
And let's walk here and that's where we turn around at the lighthouse.
Yeah.
So anonymity online is kind of difficult, especially systems like
nostto where creating new identities is easy.
It's free, basically.
You can just spam new public keys.
So to me, it seems like the only good solution is social graph.
And why are you saying it's difficult?
You can just generate spam as much as you can.
Okay.
It's easy to spam.
It's what you're saying.
Yeah.
There's no phone numbers or emails limiting you or anything.
So rate limiting and spam is obviously an issue for in a cryptographic identity space.
Then you just use social graph, but then you're not anonymous anymore.
But pseudonymous is what you can be.
Yeah, you can be pseudonymous.
Maybe you can have like trusted anonymizers.
Like you trust someone to uniquely like provide only one identity per natural human or something.
Are you like anonymous forums?
I really like a talk about the 4chan founder of all people gave Christopher Paul.
Moot was his name or his his name.
And he talked about how identity is prismatic.
It's kind of that like also in the real world, you know, like you're not the same person when you go to church,
when you go to the nightclub or when you go to a wedding or funeral or to work or to your football club or whatever.
Like do you think on the noster side we have a chance of replicating that prismatic identity in some sense?
Yeah, of course you can generate new profiles.
I mean, that's how it is now.
You have separate endpups for separate things.
I mean, lots of people do that.
I think, you know, like noster power users like seriously be they have like five different endpups.
Yeah.
One only posts about trains and the other one only posts about whatever frogs.
So any thoughts on the identity part?
Because obviously one thing we're still missing is key rotation and identity permanence.
Like if you get compromised or if it's lost, lost.
Yeah, watch out. Don't fall down.
Yeah, so I don't speak into signers.
Well, I do use noster signing extension in the browser.
Okay.
But what do you use on your phone?
Just I use Iris, my own web-based clientless progressive web app on the desktop on the home screen.
And no, no, no signer.
Like there is August on iOS as a signing app.
And there is no, I don't do that.
I think optimally we might want one keeper device.
And then just have the social verification to attach the devices into the same identity.
So the devices can.
So that this key can sign in your name?
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
And systems for like revoking those lost or hacked devices, compromised keys or something.
So master keys are not a solution.
You can always lose your master keys.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It just shifts the problem.
Yeah.
So do you know anything about Anseq Bunker?
Like with certain signing policies, I think Anseq Bunker would enable that already.
The scenario you're sketching out?
I'm not familiar with stuff.
Okay.
I have very few people use it.
And I still think it was one of the biggest mistakes of Pablo to ever work on that.
Because you're building, you're making a coin base for a master possible.
With that, it's basically, you know, like you're abstracting the keys away.
Yeah.
And I guess I was always interested in decentralized market places.
And that's where reputation comes in identity adjacent to them.
Are you working on that on the Irish side as well?
I've done some prototyping with the 11 tools, but I haven't had time for that.
Okay.
Do you know about the existing projects like plebian market and chopster and those kind of things?
No.
People exist, but they are obviously still very, very small.
But they are.
Yeah.
They are existing market places.
People do actually sell stuff on our side.
Like there's the one artist, the Italian artist, is a bellow art or something.
And purely kind of Bitcoin-enominated and only sold on our side.
Yeah.
So there is an existing market already.
Yeah.
And reputation is also maybe not so great with anonymity.
Yeah.
Sure.
You need pseudonymity to build up a reputation, that's for sure.
Yeah.
All right.
Let's make the loop back.
And then I'll drop you off at your place.
Yeah.
You, thanks for indulging me.
But that's your second hike today already.
Yeah.
I'm exhausted.
After an exhausting week.
Yes.
And I put you on the spot right away.
Yeah.
You know, like you'll have to present on this.
And you'll have to run a workshop on Vp and that's on.
Yeah.
You know, like don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness.
Yes.
Kind of thing.
I hope you're going to forgive me too for putting you all through all that.
Yes.
Thanks for all the nice things.
Yeah, to me, it's amazing that it's that people are still coming
and kind of putting yourself through all that.
And I hope that we can just continue and like get the best, most motivated people involved
and actually fix all these issues that we, you know, hinted on and talked about.
You mentioned the pirate bay, by the way.
And I think it's hilarious that to some degree, the Nostocrowde re-build a lot of the mechanisms
that made pirate bay work and makes it still work.
And like, for example, lots of mirrored pages, right?
Like lots of entry points.
Yeah.
And like, inside is that to some degree.
Then, you know, lots of fall tolerance.
I mean, we obviously have relays and so on.
Content addressing and so on with magnet links, all these kind of stuff.
They kind of, in a game of whack-a-mo, came up with all these solutions to eliminate the central part of failures.
I think on the Nostocrowde, it's like kind of the same thing happened.
And yeah, my hope is that it will just continue and get better.
And people, like you said, you know, like they should be in it for the right reasons.
So I kind of hope that it stays smallish in some sense.
Like, how should I put it?
I think what would be kind of bad for Nostocrowde, if something would happen that allows you to earn a lot of money with Nostocrowde.
You know what I mean?
And then lots of grifters and business people come in and they usually destroy stuff.
You know, like they usually take shortcuts and make things worse.
Yeah, but the Nostocrowde is not slow level of stuff.
It's like using HTTP for scams or something.
Yeah, yeah.
I agree.
That's what has made me hopeful as well.
It's a protocol after all.
And yeah, that's, you know, you usually don't make money with protocols unless you're shit money.
Last question from my side.
What would you like to see build in the next like six months from now or so?
Like there's four or five people that are listening to that.
They are all Nostocrowde developers, so just get your ideas out.
You should use hash tree more than the hash tree.
So everyone's repot should default to a hash tree remote.
Yes.
That's your dream?
Yes.
What else?
That's a very easy ask.
I feel like just pushing my own stuff because that's all I've been thinking about.
Just use permissionless freedom tech.
And solve real problems that people have.
Not like theoretically nice to have stuff, but take some.
Myself, I've not always been right at this and tried to be trying to do better.
I feel like Nostro BPN has actually solved a real problem.
It's been interesting to many people.
So that's where you don't need those network effects.
Yeah.
I mean, it solved a real problem for at least one person, which is you.
And I'm a big believer in scratching your own edge.
Like if something is actually broken for you, try to fix it.
So it works for you, but also publish it at the same time so that other people can pick it up.
And learn for it and use it as well.
Yeah, I think that's a good note to end on.
I won't.
Let's go in the shade.
I won't subject you to more heat and more questions.
So we always end on the hug.
Thanks so much for being here and doing this.
Thank you.
And it was a pleasure to have you.
I'm still.
I'm very humbled that you came.
And anytime again, you know, like if it works with the family and your other obligations,
like we want to keep doing that for as long as we can.
And yeah, let's see where we are in, I don't know, six months from now, 18 months from now.
Maybe everyone is using hash tree and everyone is using fips.
And everyone, everyone is using it all in some way.
That would be nice.
Oh, man, you have blisters now.
I feel bad.
Well, I have to stop immediately.
All right, Margie.
Thanks so much.
Thanks.
And I see we're still recording.
So everything worked.
Perfect.