1
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 All right, Franco, long time no see.

2
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 Long time no see.

3
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 What have you been up to?

4
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 Hard to summarize, two years.

5
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 Maybe let's start at the beginning.

6
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 So, when did we first meet?

7
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 We met, well, as I was saying, two years ago

8
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 in the island of Madeira

9
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 with a crazy experiment that you guys were running.

10
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 First cohort.

11
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 First cohort of the sovereign engineering.

12
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 And actually, I think it was...

13
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 It was kind of the worst one, by the way.

14
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 Like, people almost drowned.

15
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 People collapsed on hikes.

16
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 Like, we were still figuring a shit out.

17
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 We saved people's lives.

18
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 Yeah, we did.

19
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 We won't name names, but...

20
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 We won't name names, no.

21
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 I think it was probably the last one to join, I believe.

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 Because I sent the application a bit late.

23
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 Yeah.

24
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 And I had an interview with Martin.

25
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 I think the group was already kind of close

26
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 because you were aiming for 21 people.

27
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 Yeah, we made an exception.

28
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 You made an exception?

29
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 I'm glad we did.

30
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 I was so excited.

31
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 Because at the time, I was working on another project.

32
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 It's called Zap Clads.

33
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 Yeah, I know.

34
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 I know it.

35
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 I know it.

36
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 Yeah.

37
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 Because my perfectionist side was...

38
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 First of all, hitting Disqus.

39
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 Do you remember the commenting?

40
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 Yeah, yeah, Disqus.

41
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 Yeah.

42
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 Disqus.

43
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 Yeah.

44
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 Yeah.

45
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 So, the idea is basically, you add a little widget at the end of your website or if your blog posts.

46
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 Exactly.

47
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 And anyone can comment.

48
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 And, like, the Web 2.0 version of this is discussed with a queue, right?

49
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 Yeah.

50
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 And Zap Threads was the same idea, but you use your Nostar identity to log in and comment.

51
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 Yeah, absolutely.

52
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 So, PHF had built something similar.

53
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 Yeah.

54
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 For some reason, I don't like it.

55
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 This should be this way.

56
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 This should be this other way.

57
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 That's how I think.

58
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 I mean, PHF writes very opinionated software, so there's no surprise.

59
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 And I think me too, but that's why, like, it has good and bad sides to be, like, very opinionated.

60
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 I wanted to see things in a certain way.

61
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 Yeah.

62
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 And so, that's why, you know, that's my take.

63
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 And I was super lucky to come across Abla the News.

64
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 Yeah, Abla the News.

65
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 Yeah, yeah.

66
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 First long post client, basically.

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 Or one of the first ones.

68
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 Exactly.

69
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 Yeah.

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 I started working on that and they integrated Zap Threads.

71
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 I was super happy.

72
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 I was wanting to get into freedom tech in some way.

73
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 I was kind of seeing the light of how, you know, I could get in.

74
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 Yeah.

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 Because I had, I was planning to leave the fiat mines somehow.

76
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 And then, all of a sudden, I got frustrated with the App Store situation because I've been working on mobile for a while.

77
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 And this idea had on me.

78
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 What if, you know, Noster, manifest files.

79
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 So, let me give some context.

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 Downloading software.

81
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 Downloading software.

82
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 I remember, I remember in the first cohort, I think the stuff we also talked about was basically like virus scanners and malware scanners from Noster.

83
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 Which is the opposite idea of Zap Store.

84
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 Do you remember that?

85
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 Where it's like you have the binaries and all the things, and if something's really bad, you can publish an event about it.

86
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 Yeah.

87
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 And sign-in is like, okay, this thing infected my system, and so you have a malware scanner in that way.

88
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 Yeah.

89
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 Because I remember there were all of these discussions, and at least to me, in my mind, like, Zap Store came out of that.

90
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 Oh, wow, that's a sound effect that you don't get all day.

91
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 It's a reverberation, big time.

92
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 But before you maybe jump into that, what made you sign up?

93
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 What made you hear about software engineering in the first place?

94
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 Did you just saw it on Noster, or do you remember?

95
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 I saw it on Noster.

96
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 All right.

97
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,000
 Yeah.

98
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,000
 Yeah.

99
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 So, guerrilla marketing campaign was.

100
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 Yeah.

101
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 So, yeah, I was telling you, I had this interview with Martin.

102
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 And, yeah, somehow I made it there.

103
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 But I brought up Zap Store because it was, before getting into the whole development, just the spark, the initial spark, the idea, just came around those months.

104
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 And I was still working on this Zap Store thing.

105
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 And not only software engineering, but from the OpenSats side, like, you're really adamant on, please apply.

106
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 Please apply.

107
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 So, every single podcast was, like, send your ideas.

108
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 We need people.

109
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 We need developers.

110
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 Yeah.

111
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 That's how...

112
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 People are way too shy.

113
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 Yeah, yeah.

114
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 Things have changed, but, you know, for the good.

115
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 Because now, yeah, there's, like, way more interest.

116
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 But at the time, it was like, hey, this sounds perfect.

117
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 Yeah.

118
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 And anyway, all of that stuff happened, like, in the last of about four months, I'd say.

119
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 Yeah.

120
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 You know?

121
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 And at the point, at that, at that point, Zap Store was just, yeah, basically an idea.

122
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 So, it turned out perfectly to arrive, beginning of 2024, to Madeira, with some running code and with an idea.

123
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 Yeah.

124
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 And in the island, one of the first walk and talks, I think that was your concept.

125
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 Yeah.

126
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 Of, yeah.

127
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 That's what we're doing now.

128
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 Yeah.

129
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 Yeah.

130
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 Yeah.

131
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 I remember talking to you and to many other people and just kind of connecting dots, like,

132
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 my neurons were firing like crazy.

133
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 Yeah.

134
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 Putting all these things, all these concepts together, and I said, this could actually work.

135
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 And it's true what you, what you mentioned about the malware, but also I remember you writing

136
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 earlier, maybe on an Oster post, about Ninite, is it called?

137
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 Yeah, exactly.

138
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 Ninite.

139
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 If you set up a new Windows system.

140
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 Yeah, exactly.

141
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 And it's, you, you basically download this one exit file and it does all the other work

142
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 for you.

143
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 Like it has these, these, like if you're actually a power user and it has all the things that

144
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 you want kind of pre-selected and you just select them all and click download and install

145
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 and you don't have to do anything anymore.

146
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 Yeah, exactly.

147
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 It's a trust-based system, of course, but lots of people use it.

148
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 Yeah.

149
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 And that, that was an inspiration for app stacks.

150
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 Essentially, it's just a collection of apps.

151
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 Yeah.

152
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 And that also made sense.

153
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 So it was about security because we have cryptographic primitives.

154
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 It was about discovery.

155
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 It was obviously about monetization.

156
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 Yeah.

157
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 Because we had, we had these apps.

158
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 And yeah, well, that's, that's kind of how it started.

159
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 And sovereign engineering, engineering cohort was basically fuel on the fire.

160
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 Yeah.

161
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 Yeah.

162
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 And I can't believe I'm still doing that.

163
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 Yeah.

164
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 Tell me a little bit about your journey.

165
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 Like, like what, what did you run into?

166
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 Or what did you learn in going through the various iterations and versions?

167
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 What version are we on now?

168
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 It's like everything.

169
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 To me, it's like amazing.

170
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 Before, before I get, get, get, like, before you answer, let me just say for probably over

171
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 a year now, ZapStore has been my only app store that I use on Android.

172
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 And I have like three phones.

173
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 One just shit the bat today.

174
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 So I have two phones now.

175
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 But I, basically, I got a phone.

176
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 I install Graphene.

177
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 I install ZapStore and that's basically it.

178
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 That's basically it.

179
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 So what we discussed on the, one of the first hikes we went on, on the first walks we went

180
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 on is now reality, like only two years later.

181
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 So I, I just want to say that's amazing.

182
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 You know, like I know because you are very, like you're deep in the woods.

183
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 You're very close to all the issues and the problems.

184
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 And you know, like the 300 different things that might not be perfect yet and so on.

185
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 But I just want to mention that, that I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, you know,

186
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 like there's plenty of people that just, okay, you have a new phone.

187
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 You install ZapStore.

188
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 Everything's there.

189
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 All your stuff is there.

190
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 And like, it's, it's just amazing that it works.

191
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 So thanks for building it and sticking with it.

192
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 But yeah.

193
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 Tell me, what did you learn and how did your kind of view of the general idea change over

194
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 the years?

195
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:42,000
 Well, first of all, thank you for saying that because I only see the things that are missing.

196
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 Yeah, sure.

197
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 Um, you only know how the bridge can break down and like the 50 ways how it can collapse.

198
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 Oh man.

199
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 You don't see the people that use the bridge every day and walk over it and they're happy.

200
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,000
 Yeah.

201
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,000
 It's how it works.

202
00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,000
 Especially when you hear people like, not only online, but in real life.

203
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:06,000
 I was, I was overhearing conversation and someone said, yeah, of course you just,

204
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 now you finished this and you, you put it on ZapStore and like, what the fuck, man.

205
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,000
 Yeah, yeah.

206
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 That's awesome.

207
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,000
 That's awesome.

208
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,000
 Maybe let's start with that because that's, that's kind of one of the last, uh, big pieces

209
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 you build, I think making really easy to publish to, to ZapStore for developers.

210
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 And I actually mentioned this yesterday, but there's people right now that don't have an Android

211
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 phone, don't have an emulator, nothing.

212
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,000
 They just have agents and they build Android apps and publish it to ZapStore and other people

213
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,000
 download them like little games and like stupid apps and so on.

214
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,000
 Yeah.

215
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,000
 That's insane that all that works.

216
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:42,000
 To me when, when American HODL, uh, Viper, he was one of them that did it, right?

217
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:49,000
 I thought if, you know, if that happened, then as far as I know, he has like zero programming,

218
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,000
 uh, background, right?

219
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,000
 Zero.

220
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,000
 Uh, and it was just, just for fun.

221
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,000
 He didn't even test it, you know?

222
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,000
 No.

223
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,000
 He was just like telling his agent, build all this and publish it to ZapStore.

224
00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,000
 He probably never even, no, he has, he's an iPhone guy as far as I know.

225
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,000
 He doesn't have an Android phone.

226
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,000
 I'm pretty sure.

227
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,000
 That's great.

228
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,000
 Well, we're going to get into, into curation filtering and all that.

229
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:13,000
 Uh, because obviously being able to Vibe code and just publish anything is great.

230
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,000
 It also has a downside.

231
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,000
 Yeah.

232
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,000
 I just probably don't want to see.

233
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,000
 It's great responsibility.

234
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,000
 Yeah.

235
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,000
 Uh.

236
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,000
 Build this virus and publish it to ZapStore.

237
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,000
 Okay.

238
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,000
 We opened like a million threads.

239
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,000
 I don't know where.

240
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,000
 I'll shut up.

241
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,000
 I'll shut up.

242
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000
 You talk.

243
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,000
 Uh, which version are we on?

244
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,000
 I don't know, man.

245
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:38,000
 To be honest, like if there's something I have a lot of experience with now is, um,

246
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:43,000
 sort of getting, um, understanding of how developers version things.

247
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:48,000
 And if you remember what I told you about noise, you, you clip on my crew.

248
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,000
 You clip on my crew phones and noise will magically appear.

249
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,000
 I've, I've never seen a skateboarder in Oslo ever.

250
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,000
 Right.

251
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,000
 Yeah.

252
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,000
 Yeah.

253
00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,000
 Yeah.

254
00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,000
 That's, that's just how things go in life.

255
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,000
 Sorry.

256
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,000
 Demos fail.

257
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,000
 Exactly.

258
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:13,000
 Um, yeah, but versioning, like developers just use whatever random things to version.

259
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,000
 Are you telling me that not everyone uses semantic versioning?

260
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,000
 Is that it?

261
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,000
 So verse like, yeah, maybe about 10% of the user.

262
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,000
 Uh, so nothing makes sense.

263
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,000
 Not even my own versioning.

264
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,000
 So I think we're at one zero six.

265
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,000
 Now.

266
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,000
 Uh, I was courageous enough to call that a V one.

267
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:37,000
 Um, cause there was a big, a big revamp from what the, the app, essentially the, the,

268
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:43,000
 the, the first code base that I launched may, 20, 24, uh, which did work.

269
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,000
 It was a bit ugly, but worked.

270
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,000
 And there was a huge refactor.

271
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,000
 It was basically a new app.

272
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,000
 It was basically a new app.

273
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:50,000
 So that's what we call V one.

274
00:11:50,000 --> 00:12:03,000
 And that brought a lot of changes in terms of, let's say community or, uh, first commenting.

275
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:08,000
 Zapping was also possible, but, uh, it's going like much more social, especially the ability

276
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:14,000
 to like not only bookmark, but I create these app stacks and have all the people discover them.

277
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,000
 Yeah.

278
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,000
 So those were kind of the latest direction where we're going.

279
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:25,000
 Um, what else?

280
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:33,000
 I would say that something I also learned with time is that this whole thing about web of

281
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:41,000
 trust, I will probably was one of the first ones to, to actually try to use it, to implement

282
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:46,700
 it in a significant way, because we're talking about not just shit posts, but we're talking

283
00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:51,700
 about apps, you know, so you get your money stolen or you could get your identity robbed.

284
00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:57,900
 So it's, I guess, uh, one of the things, one of the most important things where you want

285
00:12:57,900 --> 00:13:02,700
 to make sure that you trust what you're, what you're doing is it's a, it's a, it's a tool.

286
00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:07,700
 So back then we didn't have much tooling around web of trust.

287
00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:15,700
 I remember building a little, uh, back in service to compute.

288
00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:16,700
 Uh, yeah.

289
00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:17,700
 Yeah.

290
00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:18,700
 We'll trust.

291
00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:23,700
 Um, that was one of the criticisms that people voiced, right?

292
00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:28,700
 Should we maybe just go back again and, um, and then maybe do one more round?

293
00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:31,700
 Because I think we'll just get into traffic otherwise.

294
00:13:31,700 --> 00:13:32,700
 That was really nice.

295
00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:33,700
 Absolutely fine.

296
00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:34,700
 Yeah.

297
00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:35,700
 Yeah.

298
00:13:35,700 --> 00:13:36,700
 Yeah.

299
00:13:36,700 --> 00:13:38,700
 We can just go up and down here until, until we're done.

300
00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:43,700
 So the, the web of trust computation, maybe talk a little bit more about that in, in terms

301
00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:44,700
 of why it is so difficult.

302
00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:46,700
 Like, why can't you just do it on device?

303
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:49,700
 Why do you need a back, backend service in the first place?

304
00:13:49,700 --> 00:13:53,700
 Oh, well, that's kind of controversial because, you know, there are so many opinions about

305
00:13:53,700 --> 00:13:54,700
 it.

306
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:59,700
 And some people would argue that it's, it, it's good enough to do it in device.

307
00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:00,700
 Yeah.

308
00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:05,700
 I thought like also that Nasser would be like much, much bigger.

309
00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:11,700
 And then like you thinking about three hops, you know, in your, in your social graph, but

310
00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:13,700
 maybe just two, two hops was enough.

311
00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:16,700
 And it could have been done in the, on the device itself.

312
00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:21,700
 But that, you know, open a whole kind of worms, uh, that maybe I didn't want to really get

313
00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:23,700
 into because I had all the stuff to do.

314
00:14:23,700 --> 00:14:24,700
 Yeah.

315
00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:31,700
 Um, then yeah, about a year later we started, uh, the vertex experiment with Pip.

316
00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:32,700
 Yeah.

317
00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:35,700
 And other people, other approaches to our trust and so on.

318
00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:39,700
 Uh, I don't think anything is like really, really defined even right now.

319
00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:40,700
 Yeah.

320
00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:41,700
 But absolutely.

321
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:44,700
 I think, um, that's one of the things I really want to do.

322
00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:47,700
 Uh, it's somewhere in some issue there.

323
00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:48,700
 Yeah.

324
00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:49,700
 Of course.

325
00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:50,700
 Uh, yeah.

326
00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:56,700
 Just do a very basic, uh, local web of trust, you know, that you don't need necessarily to

327
00:14:56,700 --> 00:15:00,700
 have a backend service, but if you want more accurate up-to-date information.

328
00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:01,700
 I see.

329
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:02,700
 Yeah.

330
00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:03,700
 That kind of makes sense.

331
00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:07,700
 Almost like, uh, almost like a caching thing where it's like, okay, here's how, what

332
00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:08,700
 you can compute easily.

333
00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:13,700
 And if you want to get the, the, the, the freshest web of trust data with like a,

334
00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:15,700
 a wider, casting a wider net.

335
00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:16,700
 Yeah.

336
00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:17,700
 With scores and so on.

337
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:18,700
 Yeah.

338
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:21,700
 Then, then you'll have to hit something that, because it's just, the, the issue is right.

339
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:27,700
 It's, it's, it's computationally expensive because you very quickly have to compute the

340
00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:28,700
 whole graph.

341
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:29,700
 That's, that's the issue.

342
00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:30,700
 Yeah.

343
00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:32,700
 So you have to look at everyone who is a Noster basically.

344
00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:37,700
 Um, but I mentioned that because my, my thinking has changed around that.

345
00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:51,700
 And again, my first vision around it was it's you, the user against the world, because it's

346
00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:56,700
 an open permissionist protocol where anyone can publish.

347
00:15:56,700 --> 00:16:01,700
 And it's up to the user to determine what to trust.

348
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:05,700
 You don't need a corporation in Silicon Valley telling you what you should trust.

349
00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:06,700
 Yeah.

350
00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:07,700
 Right.

351
00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:17,700
 Um, however, in practice, it just kind of didn't work out exactly that way because there's,

352
00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:26,700
 um, there's like a huge weight, um, on, on the user to be like establishing trust for every

353
00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:28,700
 single application they want to install.

354
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:29,700
 Yeah.

355
00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:31,700
 And they're lacking a lot of information as well.

356
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:32,700
 Just like imagine.

357
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:34,700
 Uh, that also works like that in society.

358
00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:35,700
 You just delegate trust.

359
00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:36,700
 You have different layers of trust.

360
00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:41,700
 And if you live in a city and every shop you go, you need to like do a background check

361
00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:44,700
 on the guy who's selling his stuff or you leave your clothes.

362
00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:45,700
 Yeah.

363
00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:46,700
 You use other social cues.

364
00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:47,700
 In the cleaner, right?

365
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:48,700
 You use other social cues.

366
00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:52,700
 You're not going to make a huge investigation about it because that's so inefficient and

367
00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:53,700
 annoying.

368
00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:55,700
 If the place looks legit, then it's probably good enough.

369
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:56,700
 Exactly.

370
00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:57,700
 Exactly.

371
00:16:57,700 --> 00:16:58,700
 That's how it works.

372
00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:00,700
 You just look at other who is coming here, right?

373
00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:01,700
 Exactly.

374
00:17:01,700 --> 00:17:02,700
 Exactly.

375
00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:03,700
 Yeah.

376
00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:08,700
 And I think in, in the kind of downloading apps kind of way, uh, if you, if you go outside

377
00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:14,700
 of app stores on like, I don't know, GitHub releases or like any package manager in the,

378
00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:17,700
 in the Linux world, um, it's very similar, right?

379
00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:24,700
 Like, or homebrew or what have you, you know, where it's like, okay, you, you, as a similar

380
00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:27,700
 indicator, you have like how many stars does this GitHub repo have or something like that.

381
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:28,700
 Yeah.

382
00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:29,700
 Absolutely.

383
00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:32,700
 And, and, and if the release is signed that like all the, all the little ticks are green,

384
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:33,700
 then that's good enough.

385
00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:36,700
 There's a couple of thousand stars and everything looks green.

386
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:37,700
 You're probably fine.

387
00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:38,700
 Yeah.

388
00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:43,700
 You maybe have a look at the author and GitHub and see, you know, do they, do they have followers?

389
00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:44,700
 Is there some activity here?

390
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:45,700
 Yeah.

391
00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:46,700
 Yeah.

392
00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:49,700
 So it's all these heuristics to, you know, roughly determine.

393
00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:51,700
 It also really depends on the app.

394
00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:53,700
 If it's a calculator that has no internet access.

395
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:54,700
 Yeah.

396
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:55,700
 Okay.

397
00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:56,700
 Whatever.

398
00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:57,700
 Right?

399
00:17:57,700 --> 00:18:07,700
 So, yeah, going back to, to that concept, long story short, ended up being that we're

400
00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:13,700
 kind of landing on a, on a different approach also because by the way, it got caught a long

401
00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:16,700
 time to, to have like relay management for some reason.

402
00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:17,700
 Yeah.

403
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:19,700
 I know you hate me for that.

404
00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:20,700
 No, I don't.

405
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:24,700
 It was just the main criticism that everyone, that everyone voiced.

406
00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:31,700
 I was like, I really want it, but anyway, it's been there for, for, for a while.

407
00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:37,700
 But then like the ecosystem evolved and we have other things as well.

408
00:18:37,700 --> 00:18:39,700
 Like, you know, blossom servers, for example.

409
00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:40,700
 Yeah.

410
00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:41,700
 Eventually, who knows?

411
00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:43,700
 Cashmins or web of trust providers and so on.

412
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:45,700
 So there's like a bunch of things you want to parameter.

413
00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:48,700
 Parameter, parameterize or however you say that.

414
00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:54,700
 And anyway, that was another reason why we're kind of landing at the moment.

415
00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:57,700
 It's a, this a huge effort to land, to go towards communities.

416
00:18:57,700 --> 00:18:59,700
 What does that mean?

417
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:04,700
 Is this place where you just trust?

418
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:05,700
 Yeah.

419
00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:06,700
 A community, right?

420
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:10,700
 Or a group or someone who established the thing we're going to use these relays.

421
00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:11,700
 These are our blossom servers.

422
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:12,700
 This is a web of trust provider.

423
00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:13,700
 You don't like it.

424
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:14,700
 You don't like it.

425
00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:16,700
 You can just use another community.

426
00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:17,700
 Right?

427
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:23,700
 And then, you know, the implementation doesn't matter.

428
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:25,700
 That's a detail for another time.

429
00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:34,700
 But that, that's just kind of gives the user, I guess, more peace of mind.

430
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:43,700
 That once you, once you approved a community, which is basically a catalog of apps in this case.

431
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:44,700
 Yeah.

432
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:45,700
 And then you can just relax.

433
00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:46,700
 Right?

434
00:19:46,700 --> 00:19:49,700
 Because you know that someone is checking for things.

435
00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:53,700
 It's not, it's not the user against the world as you previously phrased it.

436
00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:56,700
 It's like the user joins the community and the community does a lot of the heavy lifting.

437
00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:57,700
 And it's the community against the world.

438
00:19:57,700 --> 00:19:58,700
 Yeah.

439
00:19:58,700 --> 00:19:59,700
 Yeah.

440
00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:00,700
 Yeah.

441
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:05,700
 And one of the most important concepts for me, and I have been having discussions about

442
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:13,700
 that here, with a lot of smart people, it's the idea of credible exit.

443
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:14,700
 Yeah.

444
00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:22,700
 I like it very much because, you know, there's a lot of shades of gray in terms of decentralization.

445
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:27,700
 We all want everything to be super decentralized and have a fantastic UX and fantastic security.

446
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:29,700
 But in life there are trade-offs.

447
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:30,700
 No solutions.

448
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:31,700
 Only trade-offs.

449
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:33,700
 That's how it goes.

450
00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:34,700
 Yeah.

451
00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:42,700
 So the idea of credible exit to me means maybe we just like dial down the decentralization.

452
00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:56,700
 Uh, to improve, uh, I guess UX, because UX means, in my opinion, like it's so important

453
00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:59,700
 because it means whether people stick or they leave.

454
00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:02,700
 And if they leave, it doesn't matter how decentralized you are.

455
00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:03,700
 You just don't have the people.

456
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:04,700
 You just don't have the impact.

457
00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:05,700
 Yeah.

458
00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:08,700
 And, but what's the sweet spot?

459
00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:09,700
 Yeah.

460
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:14,700
 I think, and I, I'll give you, I'll give you my answer to that.

461
00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:17,700
 I think there is a time component to UX.

462
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:24,700
 And the way I mean that is like my go-to example is always the university professor that has a

463
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:29,700
 static HTML page and never created a Facebook page, never created a Twitter profile, never

464
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:31,700
 created a LinkedIn profile, nothing.

465
00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:32,700
 There's a new publication.

466
00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:34,700
 It's one new line of HTML.

467
00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:38,700
 He hosts the damn thing on his toaster and it will never go down.

468
00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:41,700
 Amazing UX for him and for the visitors.

469
00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:42,700
 You know what I mean?

470
00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:43,700
 Yeah.

471
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:49,700
 And, and it, it's like you, you, you can tell a call all day long that, um, you know, Facebook

472
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:51,700
 has amazing UX and all those kinds of things.

473
00:21:51,700 --> 00:21:56,700
 But let's say you're, you're, you're a university professor in a university in Russia or something.

474
00:21:56,700 --> 00:22:00,700
 And then suddenly your Facebook page is gone and you, and all those kinds of things.

475
00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:04,700
 So I, uh, that would be my answer to like, yes.

476
00:22:04,700 --> 00:22:09,700
 And because when people, when, when design people, for example, you are UX designers talk

477
00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:15,700
 about your amazing UX, it is about the Silicon Valley understanding of UX of how can we attract

478
00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:19,700
 a billion users until next quarter.

479
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:23,700
 And if all of them leave two years from now, no one cares.

480
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:24,700
 Oh yeah.

481
00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:27,700
 You know, if all of them get rug pulled in like five years from now, no one cares.

482
00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:28,700
 Like no one cares.

483
00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:29,700
 That's not the metric.

484
00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:30,700
 Yeah.

485
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:33,700
 And so there's levels to UX because it's, it's also like, have you ever tried to send,

486
00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:37,700
 it doesn't matter which country, it doesn't matter which banking system and international wire.

487
00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:40,700
 It's isn't amazing UX.

488
00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:42,700
 It's like you're sending a Bitcoin transaction.

489
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:43,700
 It's like a hundred X easier.

490
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:44,700
 Absolutely.

491
00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:45,700
 Yeah.

492
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:46,700
 Like the UX is so much better.

493
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:53,700
 And so, so, you know, there's layers to UX and what people understand by UX because the banking

494
00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:55,700
 app looks shiny and everything is great and so on.

495
00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:58,700
 And, but you know, like it takes forever.

496
00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:00,700
 You need to, you know, like you need to KYC.

497
00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:06,700
 You need to, um, do like two factor identification, like seven different times.

498
00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:10,700
 And, and, and then you're not even sure if it goes through and you're not even sure.

499
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:14,700
 And all those kinds of things, you know, like it, it literally takes people weeks or months

500
00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:16,700
 sometimes to send money around.

501
00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:17,700
 You, you're absolutely right.

502
00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:18,700
 Yeah.

503
00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:24,700
 Like that's, I mean, I definitely know about, uh, sending internet wire transfers and trying

504
00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:25,700
 to pay with the card.

505
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:27,700
 And you, the money's there.

506
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:30,700
 Um, and you, it just fails.

507
00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:34,700
 And it's, please contact your bank at this number and Monday to Friday.

508
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:35,700
 Yeah.

509
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:41,700
 I just, you call the bank and it's another case of great UX because maybe it's the weekend

510
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:44,700
 and you know, you have to wait three days until some robot maybe talks to you.

511
00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:45,700
 It's just insane.

512
00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:46,700
 And that's probably the worst UX.

513
00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:49,700
 So yeah, it's, we have things going for us for sure.

514
00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:50,700
 Yeah.

515
00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:53,700
 I think, I think, I think UX needs a little bit of a reframing because also on the app store

516
00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:58,700
 side, for example, as a developer, the worst UX is, and everyone knows this who builds up

517
00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:02,700
 and tries to put them in the app store, getting into the app stores is like the worst UX ever.

518
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:03,700
 Absolutely.

519
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:04,700
 You have to wait forever.

520
00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:05,700
 Like you have to jump through so many hoops.

521
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:06,700
 Yeah.

522
00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:10,700
 And if your, if your thing is actually interesting enough, you might not even be able to get onto

523
00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:12,700
 the app store or you're getting pulled for other reasons.

524
00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:17,700
 You know, like if, if you have actual enemies, if you're going up against some serious big

525
00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:24,700
 players, for example, and then, you know, like again, is that amazing UX?

526
00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:30,700
 Yeah, no, no, it's, it's, you're right, but still, because now, for example, you're talking

527
00:24:30,700 --> 00:24:31,700
 about developers.

528
00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:32,700
 Yeah.

529
00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:33,700
 Here we're talking about marketplace.

530
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:34,700
 Yeah.

531
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:35,700
 It's a two sided marketplace.

532
00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:36,700
 Yeah.

533
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:41,700
 Where it's, it's basically connecting in a decentralized way, users and developers.

534
00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:42,700
 Yeah.

535
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:44,700
 I'm mostly talking about users.

536
00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:45,700
 Yeah.

537
00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:47,700
 I know already for developers is amazing.

538
00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:48,700
 Yeah.

539
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:49,700
 Yeah.

540
00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:50,700
 Yes.

541
00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:51,700
 App store is unbeatable from the developer experience.

542
00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:52,700
 I think you don't need an account.

543
00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:54,700
 You don't need anything.

544
00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:57,700
 You're, you're it's, it's, it's so agent friendly also too.

545
00:24:57,700 --> 00:24:58,700
 Exactly.

546
00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:04,700
 I think I even designed this thing to, um, the command line tool for publishing, uh, which

547
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:07,700
 I eventually hope to, to make available on the web.

548
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:12,700
 Uh, the fact that is, it can output Jason and like, it's so all, all of the help of the

549
00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:15,700
 actual, um, program is, is there.

550
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:16,700
 Yeah.

551
00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:17,700
 It's, it's contained in the executable.

552
00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:18,700
 That's app store CLI, right?

553
00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:19,700
 Like if you want to check it out.

554
00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:20,700
 It's, uh, it's, uh, yeah.

555
00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:21,700
 It's called ZSP now.

556
00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:22,700
 ZSP.

557
00:25:22,700 --> 00:25:23,700
 Okay.

558
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:26,700
 Uh, it's like a complete rewrite and it's just, just way better.

559
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:28,700
 And what does it stand for?

560
00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:29,700
 App store publishing?

561
00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:30,700
 App store publisher.

562
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:31,700
 All right.

563
00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:34,700
 Uh, not a great name, but it's good.

564
00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:35,700
 No, no, no.

565
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:38,700
 It's your, your, your, your target demographic is developers.

566
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:39,700
 Yes.

567
00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:40,700
 CSP is perfect.

568
00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:41,700
 Exactly.

569
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:42,700
 So.

570
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:46,700
 Yeah, I think, I think, uh, you can just throw it at your, at your agent and it will figure

571
00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:47,700
 out.

572
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:53,700
 Uh, so definitely everything can be improved, but on that side, I'm, I'm, I'm quite happy.

573
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:58,700
 And, uh, I think it's proof because a lot of people are just like people who know it are,

574
00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:00,700
 are uploading apps, but let's go to the user site.

575
00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:06,700
 Because that's why when I was talking about UX is that, um, the truth is that people already,

576
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:09,700
 I mean, part of the whole experience is that people are used to things.

577
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:12,700
 So people are used to, you know, the, what the back.

578
00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:15,700
 See, that's the microphone effect.

579
00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:18,700
 Just at the exact point.

580
00:26:18,700 --> 00:26:23,700
 Getting mauled, getting mauled in public.

581
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:25,700
 At least we're not.

582
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:26,700
 Yeah.

583
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:32,700
 But you're talking about kind of like how something should make more or less look and feel.

584
00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:33,700
 It's expectation of the user.

585
00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:41,700
 And that's probably like, that leads us also to your decision of, um, um, pre-selecting apps,

586
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:43,700
 like science by SAP store, right?

587
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:45,700
 Like populating the app store from the get go.

588
00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:46,700
 Yeah.

589
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:47,700
 Yeah.

590
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:48,700
 Yeah.

591
00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:49,700
 Hold on.

592
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:50,700
 Just want to like round that idea.

593
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:53,700
 Sorry for, for messing up your train of thought.

594
00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:54,700
 Yeah.

595
00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:55,700
 We'll have to turn around again.

596
00:26:55,700 --> 00:26:58,700
 Otherwise we'll, we'll just be a noise again.

597
00:26:58,700 --> 00:26:59,700
 Hey, there's Rubble.

598
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:03,700
 We'll, we'll let him pass.

599
00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:04,700
 We'll let him pass.

600
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:07,700
 He's also, he's also making noise.

601
00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:10,700
 We'll, we'll have to let all the noisy people pass.

602
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:11,700
 Okay.

603
00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:12,700
 All right.

604
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:16,700
 I guess we'll just go back and forth like crazy people.

605
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:17,700
 Yeah.

606
00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:18,700
 That's fine.

607
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:19,700
 That's fine.

608
00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:24,700
 Uh, what I was saying.

609
00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:25,700
 Yeah.

610
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:26,700
 Oh yeah.

611
00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:27,700
 I just want to finish my idea.

612
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:28,700
 Yeah.

613
00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:29,700
 Yeah.

614
00:27:29,700 --> 00:27:32,700
 On the user side, what the users are expecting, what the users are expecting, what something

615
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:33,700
 should look and feel like.

616
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:36,700
 All these things are, are new.

617
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:43,700
 Uh, even like, for example, because the, the, the perennial challenge, it's like signing

618
00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:46,700
 with Noster and I go, what are you even talking about?

619
00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:47,700
 Yeah.

620
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:48,700
 So that, that's what I'm talking about UX.

621
00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:53,700
 And software in its way is, is better.

622
00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:59,700
 I think because it does not necessarily require, um, an account to use.

623
00:27:59,700 --> 00:28:00,700
 Yeah.

624
00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:01,700
 So that helps a lot.

625
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:06,700
 I think just by the time you want to, you don't need to share something anywhere.

626
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:07,700
 You just click.

627
00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:08,700
 Exactly.

628
00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:13,700
 So yeah, it's important if you want to like, again, establish a trust and all that stuff,

629
00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:18,700
 but it's not like, you mean like a social media client where you kind of immediately need to

630
00:28:18,700 --> 00:28:19,700
 sign in.

631
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:20,700
 Yeah.

632
00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:21,700
 Yeah.

633
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:22,700
 You need to go upfront through a mini KYC usually, right?

634
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:23,700
 Like email at least.

635
00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:24,700
 And like a phone number at least.

636
00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:25,700
 Yeah.

637
00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:26,700
 You need to, they need to know something a little bit.

638
00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:33,700
 They need to like, if you're gonna, if you go to primal or whichever client they're gonna,

639
00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:38,700
 you kind of need to know upfront, you know, Hey, we need to generate your NSEC because like,

640
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:40,700
 that's the way you interact with the whole thing.

641
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:41,700
 Yeah.

642
00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:42,700
 But on ZapStore it's like, you can defer that.

643
00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:43,700
 Okay.

644
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:44,700
 I see.

645
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:45,700
 That's my point.

646
00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:46,700
 Okay.

647
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:47,700
 Okay.

648
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:51,700
 So let's go to your question about, yeah.

649
00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:53,700
 But say a little more about that.

650
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:55,700
 What do you mean by you can defer that?

651
00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:56,700
 You just generate.

652
00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:02,700
 Just by the fact that you can download the app and immediately get started without any accounts.

653
00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:05,700
 So, so, so most of the users are pure lurkers.

654
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:06,700
 They don't need to even lurkers.

655
00:29:06,700 --> 00:29:07,700
 Exactly.

656
00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:08,700
 Yeah.

657
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:09,700
 Yeah.

658
00:29:09,700 --> 00:29:10,700
 Yeah.

659
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:11,700
 I see.

660
00:29:11,700 --> 00:29:12,700
 That makes a lot of sense.

661
00:29:12,700 --> 00:29:13,700
 I mean, obviously in social clients.

662
00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:14,700
 Yeah.

663
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:15,700
 Like kind ones, you can also do that.

664
00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:16,700
 But for some reason, right.

665
00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:20,700
 When you're, when I'm just thinking of UX, when you first get there is a probably there's

666
00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:25,700
 a sign in button and the experience is much better when you have your own identity.

667
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:26,700
 Yeah.

668
00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:27,700
 Yeah.

669
00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:28,700
 Yeah.

670
00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:29,700
 Yeah.

671
00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:30,700
 Yeah.

672
00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:32,700
 That's, that was what I meant with deferring.

673
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:37,700
 You can, you could just use it for months and then at some point you want to share

674
00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:39,700
 your own app stack.

675
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:40,700
 Yeah.

676
00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:46,700
 Or you want to use bookmarks, whatever, which we're going to even change that.

677
00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:47,700
 Soon.

678
00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:51,700
 Like you don't even need for, for, for your personal preferences.

679
00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:56,700
 For example, excluding certain apps from updates, which is, I'm doing that and developing

680
00:29:56,700 --> 00:29:57,700
 that right now.

681
00:29:57,700 --> 00:29:59,700
 A lot of people ask for that.

682
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:02,700
 You just don't want certain apps to be checked for updates because they weren't installed

683
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:04,700
 by other stores or whatever.

684
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:10,700
 And then your personal bookmarks, your preferences, all that stuff that is basically encrypted.

685
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:11,700
 Yeah.

686
00:30:11,700 --> 00:30:12,700
 Has a device key.

687
00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:13,700
 Yeah.

688
00:30:13,700 --> 00:30:14,700
 I see.

689
00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:15,700
 Okay.

690
00:30:15,700 --> 00:30:16,700
 So you don't even need to put, you even need to sign in as GG.

691
00:30:16,700 --> 00:30:17,700
 Yeah.

692
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:19,700
 As long as you're on the same device, the settings will come back.

693
00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:22,700
 Then you can back up that and so you can back it up with your own.

694
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:23,700
 Yeah.

695
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:24,700
 Right.

696
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:25,700
 I heard that concept around here as well.

697
00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:26,700
 Yeah.

698
00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:27,700
 I think it's super interesting.

699
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:29,700
 So that differs it even further.

700
00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:30,700
 Yeah.

701
00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:35,700
 It's only when you want to share social signal, let's say.

702
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:36,700
 Yeah.

703
00:30:36,700 --> 00:30:37,700
 That you need to sign in.

704
00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:38,700
 Yeah.

705
00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:39,700
 Or look at web of trust from your perspective.

706
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:40,700
 Exactly.

707
00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:41,700
 Yeah.

708
00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:45,700
 But that, again, is deferred by the fact that if you're just trusting a community.

709
00:30:45,700 --> 00:30:46,700
 Yeah.

710
00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:49,700
 Because you can just see that GG trusted that community.

711
00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:50,700
 Yeah.

712
00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:52,700
 Like, again, you don't even need to sign in.

713
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:59,700
 So, yeah, that's, that's, that will help a lot.

714
00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:02,700
 But we're still doing, now doing a lot of work on onboarding.

715
00:31:02,700 --> 00:31:07,700
 For, you know, for the time where also someone wants to comment.

716
00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:11,700
 Because that, I think that's what will push more people is you want to put a comment on an app.

717
00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:12,700
 Yeah.

718
00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:13,700
 And at that point, yes, you need to.

719
00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:14,700
 Yeah.

720
00:31:14,700 --> 00:31:15,700
 Or zap, I guess.

721
00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:16,700
 Same.

722
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:17,700
 Yeah.

723
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:18,700
 Yeah.

724
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:19,700
 Even though you could just send an anonymous payment.

725
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:20,700
 Yeah.

726
00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:21,700
 That works too.

727
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:22,700
 I mean, you could also comment anonymously, right?

728
00:31:22,700 --> 00:31:24,700
 But then you'll have to do some other.

729
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:28,700
 Like Amethyst, for example, has the option to leave a comment as well.

730
00:31:28,700 --> 00:31:30,700
 Leave a comment as a, as a name.

731
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:35,700
 But it's not very useful because then you, you have to like, because you're missing web of trust.

732
00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:39,700
 You would probably have to add the proof of work just to mitigate spam.

733
00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:40,700
 All those kinds of things.

734
00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:41,700
 Yeah.

735
00:31:41,700 --> 00:31:43,700
 We, we, we are adding proof of work as well.

736
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:44,700
 Okay.

737
00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:45,700
 Yeah.

738
00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:46,700
 Yeah.

739
00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:47,700
 Yeah.

740
00:31:47,700 --> 00:31:52,700
 On the, on the website, the ZapStore web, that changed a lot.

741
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:53,700
 It didn't use to exist even.

742
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:54,700
 Yeah.

743
00:31:54,700 --> 00:31:59,700
 And it's really cool now that you can also, you have very nice links for every single app.

744
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:05,700
 Like if I want to share whatever, Wisp or, or with someone, I can just send them the ZapStore link.

745
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:06,700
 Yeah.

746
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:08,700
 So it looks nice and has a nice URL.

747
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:09,700
 Yeah, exactly.

748
00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:11,700
 And, and there you can also comment.

749
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:12,700
 Yeah.

750
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:19,700
 So, uh, comments app and even just explore and discover other apps.

751
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:22,700
 And we're trying to use that as, as landing pages.

752
00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:23,700
 Yeah.

753
00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:27,700
 So when people, and to try to work on, on SEO even, uh, such that when people are searched

754
00:32:27,700 --> 00:32:28,700
 for an app.

755
00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:29,700
 Okay.

756
00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:30,700
 They land on the ZapStore page.

757
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:31,700
 Yeah.

758
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:32,700
 Now you have a download button.

759
00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:33,700
 Yeah.

760
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:34,700
 That offers you two things.

761
00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:37,700
 You just download the APK directly, which a lot of people love.

762
00:32:37,700 --> 00:32:42,700
 Or it's like, if you want to keep updates, then you just download ZapStore and you get

763
00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:44,700
 a QR code that you basically open the app.

764
00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:49,700
 Once you install ZapStore, it opens the app and then now you're on ZapStore.

765
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:50,700
 Yeah.

766
00:32:50,700 --> 00:32:54,700
 I mean, you got, you got what you wanted, but you also get the updates and then you can

767
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:55,700
 discover other apps.

768
00:32:55,700 --> 00:32:59,700
 So that's like, uh, this other onboarding process.

769
00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:05,700
 Um, and what else do we have on the, on the site?

770
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:06,700
 Yeah.

771
00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:14,700
 We, we, we have some more developer tools like analytics, which is really, it's a bit rough,

772
00:33:14,700 --> 00:33:19,700
 but it just kind of shows that the amount of downloads and impressions for, for a certain

773
00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:22,700
 app, which a lot of developers were, uh, wanted, wanted to see.

774
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:23,700
 Yeah.

775
00:33:23,700 --> 00:33:26,700
 It's another, it's another kind of, uh, UX expectation, right?

776
00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:28,700
 Like it's another thing that people just expect.

777
00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:29,700
 Yeah.

778
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:33,700
 Because if you like, uh, all the other app stores and all the other things have that.

779
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:34,700
 Yeah, exactly.

780
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:35,700
 Yeah, exactly.

781
00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:46,700
 So it's, um, it's something also is difficult to, um, not difficult, but we need, we need

782
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:55,700
 to take into account the fact that privacy is really valued by myself, but also by, by users

783
00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:57,700
 and, and, and developers as well.

784
00:33:57,700 --> 00:33:58,700
 Right.

785
00:33:58,700 --> 00:33:59,700
 Like depending on the apps.

786
00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:00,700
 Yeah.

787
00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:04,700
 So it was no go to, to make any changes to the client itself.

788
00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:08,700
 So we're just running stuff where we, what we learn, like obviously zero, we don't have

789
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:10,700
 any personal information anyway.

790
00:34:10,700 --> 00:34:11,700
 Yeah.

791
00:34:11,700 --> 00:34:17,700
 Um, but just, um, deriving from the stats we get on the server.

792
00:34:17,700 --> 00:34:18,700
 Yeah.

793
00:34:18,700 --> 00:34:19,700
 I'm just using that.

794
00:34:19,700 --> 00:34:20,700
 Yeah.

795
00:34:20,700 --> 00:34:21,700
 Yeah.

796
00:34:21,700 --> 00:34:22,700
 I see.

797
00:34:22,700 --> 00:34:23,700
 I see.

798
00:34:23,700 --> 00:34:24,700
 Yeah.

799
00:34:24,700 --> 00:34:26,700
 On the analytics side, you mean there's, it's all, uh, anonymized by default, basically

800
00:34:26,700 --> 00:34:27,700
 more or less by default.

801
00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:28,700
 Yeah.

802
00:34:28,700 --> 00:34:33,700
 And then obviously there's tons of ideas, you know, tour and, uh, uh, some magic cryptography

803
00:34:33,700 --> 00:34:38,700
 to like, not even know, uh, which updates you requested.

804
00:34:38,700 --> 00:34:39,700
 Yeah.

805
00:34:39,700 --> 00:34:42,700
 Is that, in my, that's like, uh, I'd say like a thorn.

806
00:34:42,700 --> 00:34:43,700
 Yeah.

807
00:34:43,700 --> 00:34:46,700
 It would be like a honeypot almost, you know, like where it's just like, if you, if you could

808
00:34:46,700 --> 00:34:47,700
 figure that out.

809
00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:48,700
 With intelligence.

810
00:34:48,700 --> 00:34:55,700
 Like if, if, if, if you would apply like, uh, running on, on, you know, you could so easily

811
00:34:55,700 --> 00:34:56,700
 correlate.

812
00:34:56,700 --> 00:35:00,700
 If, if you look at my phone and see the apps that I have installed, you know, and those

813
00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:04,700
 kind of things that, that tells you a lot about me and what I do and who I am and so

814
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:05,700
 on.

815
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:07,700
 So, so you can profile people just by, by that basically.

816
00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:08,700
 Yeah.

817
00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:11,700
 And, and put them on the list.

818
00:35:11,700 --> 00:35:12,700
 100%.

819
00:35:12,700 --> 00:35:13,700
 100%.

820
00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:14,700
 That's what usually happens.

821
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:15,700
 Yeah.

822
00:35:15,700 --> 00:35:18,700
 I want to come back to one of the, the things we touched on before.

823
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:20,700
 Uh, namely the, the pre-population.

824
00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:21,700
 How are we doing on time?

825
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:22,700
 You're the time master.

826
00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:23,700
 Ah, good.

827
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:24,700
 We still have 25 minutes.

828
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:25,700
 Yeah.

829
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:30,700
 Um, the pre-population of SAP store, which I personally really liked.

830
00:35:30,700 --> 00:35:36,700
 Uh, I know it wasn't universally liked, but it was really cool to just, um, go to SAP

831
00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:40,700
 store and see basically all the apps we as a community more or less care about.

832
00:35:40,700 --> 00:35:47,700
 I mean, you selected them, I guess, talk me, talk me through like, what made you do that?

833
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:50,700
 And how did you decide and where did you source?

834
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:51,700
 Like all the awesome apps?

835
00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:52,700
 Because those are awesome apps.

836
00:35:52,700 --> 00:35:57,700
 Like I, sometimes when I, you know, other people just do Netflix and chill.

837
00:35:57,700 --> 00:35:59,700
 I did like browse SAP store and chill.

838
00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:02,700
 I was just on the couch and going through SAP store and like, what are some awesome open

839
00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:04,700
 source apps that I don't know about?

840
00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:07,700
 And actually the voice recorder we're using right now.

841
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:08,700
 That's how I discovered it.

842
00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:09,700
 Oh, wow.

843
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:10,700
 Yeah.

844
00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:11,700
 It's amazing.

845
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:12,700
 Yeah.

846
00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:13,700
 Yeah.

847
00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:14,700
 That's a Fossify voice recorder.

848
00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:15,700
 I fell in love with the Fossify tools.

849
00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:16,700
 Yeah.

850
00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:17,700
 I love those tools.

851
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:18,700
 There's a really simple.

852
00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:19,700
 Super, super simple.

853
00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:20,700
 Yeah.

854
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:21,700
 Yeah.

855
00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:22,700
 It's so good.

856
00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:24,700
 So, so tell me how, like what, first of all, what made you land on this decision?

857
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:25,700
 Yeah.

858
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:29,700
 And, and the process of kind of like doing all that, because you, you signed as SAP

859
00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:33,700
 store, you signed and published, I don't know how many apps you have to tell me, but hundreds.

860
00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:35,700
 Uh, this over 3000.

861
00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:36,700
 Yeah.

862
00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:37,700
 There you go.

863
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:38,700
 Yeah.

864
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:39,700
 Yeah.

865
00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:40,700
 Uh, so what does this pipeline look like and all this stuff?

866
00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:41,700
 Like that's quite involved.

867
00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:44,700
 You didn't do it by hand, I guess.

868
00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:45,700
 I started by hand.

869
00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:46,700
 Yeah.

870
00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:47,700
 Okay.

871
00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:48,700
 As you, as you do.

872
00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:57,700
 Uh, it's funny because back at, uh, the first cohort, uh, in Madeira, uh, some of my

873
00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:02,700
 buddies from back then were like telling me what their, their thoughts were about me at the

874
00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:04,700
 moment, because I was the guy who's not building anything.

875
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:09,700
 I was just talking and doing presentations, right?

876
00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:14,700
 We outlawed presentations now, by the way.

877
00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:15,700
 Oh, really?

878
00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:16,700
 Yeah.

879
00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:17,700
 Hard rule.

880
00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:18,700
 Hard rule.

881
00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:19,700
 We shot on site.

882
00:37:19,700 --> 00:37:21,700
 Uh, huge discovery of how do you design this thing?

883
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:22,700
 What's the potential?

884
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:32,700
 And I guess how you, how you approach building a marketplace, which is, I knew from before,

885
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:34,700
 it's super hard to build a marketplace.

886
00:37:34,700 --> 00:37:35,700
 Yeah.

887
00:37:35,700 --> 00:37:37,700
 Like two side, even one sided, right?

888
00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:40,700
 Like, uh, let's say like white noise where you have like all the users are the same.

889
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:41,700
 You don't have the two types of users.

890
00:37:41,700 --> 00:37:42,700
 Yeah.

891
00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:46,700
 Uh, but super hard because it's, it's a chicken and egg problem.

892
00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:47,700
 Yeah.

893
00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:52,700
 And so what I figured is that you have demand and supply.

894
00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:59,700
 And in this case, demand is like the users who come to look for apps and supplies the, the,

895
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:01,700
 the developers that put stuff on there.

896
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:02,700
 Yeah.

897
00:38:02,700 --> 00:38:08,700
 But we like, there was a way to like break that cycle of the chicken and egg, which was, uh,

898
00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:11,700
 kind of let's say quote unquote growth hacking.

899
00:38:11,700 --> 00:38:12,700
 The thing is like hacking the supply.

900
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:13,700
 Yeah.

901
00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:15,700
 It's like you can offer a lot of supply.

902
00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:21,700
 So even though it's not like the ideal way, because the ideal thing would be like each developer

903
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:22,700
 is signing their own apps.

904
00:38:22,700 --> 00:38:23,700
 Yeah.

905
00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:24,700
 But that doesn't happen.

906
00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:29,700
 We get kind of like, you say, okay, it's a proxy or it's a, you know, selection by this

907
00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:32,700
 other pub key, which is like what it's only this absolute puppy.

908
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:33,700
 Yeah.

909
00:38:33,700 --> 00:38:34,700
 Do that.

910
00:38:34,700 --> 00:38:38,700
 And in this, in this way, we're attracting, not only we attract the users because there,

911
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:39,700
 there are apps.

912
00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:42,700
 And once there are, there are more users now developers are interested because there are

913
00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:43,700
 more eyeballs.

914
00:38:43,700 --> 00:38:46,700
 And also most of the users are probably developers in some way.

915
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:47,700
 Yeah.

916
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:48,700
 Like a large part of them.

917
00:38:48,700 --> 00:38:49,700
 That's, that's true as well.

918
00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:55,700
 So for me, it was super important to get adoption of, of the project.

919
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:59,700
 And, um, I think, yeah, it would have been a very different story.

920
00:38:59,700 --> 00:39:04,700
 If we just did like, just basically any other, or not your client.

921
00:39:04,700 --> 00:39:09,700
 It's like, you know, I give you the tool and I don't know, you just figure it out.

922
00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:12,700
 Like whoever posts here, you, that's the content you will see.

923
00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:13,700
 Yeah.

924
00:39:13,700 --> 00:39:19,700
 Uh, uh, actually it was a lot of work, man, because a lot, there are a lot of issues around

925
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:20,700
 that.

926
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:21,700
 Things break all the time.

927
00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:24,700
 Uh, cause there's like all the edge cases, right?

928
00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:27,700
 It's like, when you, when you look at it, it's like, Oh, it looks easy.

929
00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:28,700
 Yeah.

930
00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:34,700
 But then you got all the, you know, you got, you get the forks, you get like people, um,

931
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:37,700
 uh, all of a sudden, for example, publishing, they were publishing a release and all of a

932
00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:38,700
 sudden they changed to a pre-release.

933
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:39,700
 Yeah.

934
00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:40,700
 So now should you index pre-releases or not?

935
00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:41,700
 Yeah.

936
00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:44,700
 Because sometimes the previous will just screw everything up.

937
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:45,700
 Yeah.

938
00:39:45,700 --> 00:39:49,700
 As it happened with a term term, uh, to a lot of people.

939
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:53,700
 Well, you're not supposed to use it because pre-release means that you need to be careful,

940
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:58,700
 but now signal started pushing pre-releases for actual reasons.

941
00:39:58,700 --> 00:40:01,700
 So they don't show up and then people complain because it's not there.

942
00:40:01,700 --> 00:40:02,700
 Yeah.

943
00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:03,700
 Yeah.

944
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:04,700
 Yeah.

945
00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:05,700
 Yeah.

946
00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:09,700
 And, um, I see you're still, you're still traumatized by the experience.

947
00:40:09,700 --> 00:40:10,700
 It's kind of traumatic.

948
00:40:10,700 --> 00:40:11,700
 It's a full-time job, man.

949
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:15,700
 Um, so, but, but I'm, I don't, I don't, but where are some other edge cases?

950
00:40:15,700 --> 00:40:21,700
 Like what if, what if, what if, uh, um, did you, well, uh, check the signing as well?

951
00:40:21,700 --> 00:40:26,700
 And like, did people rotate the keys, stuff like that or change where they publish their

952
00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:28,700
 things like if someone moves from GitHub to GitLab or something?

953
00:40:28,700 --> 00:40:29,700
 Yeah.

954
00:40:29,700 --> 00:40:30,700
 That too.

955
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:31,700
 Yeah.

956
00:40:31,700 --> 00:40:35,700
 Migrations, uh, key rotations as well, because then you're going to get a certificate mismatch.

957
00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:38,700
 And so that's, um, then you get an actual error.

958
00:40:38,700 --> 00:40:39,700
 That's a red error.

959
00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:42,700
 And people are, it's like, Hey, this is malware.

960
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:45,700
 Not going to the developer because they did the key rotation.

961
00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:46,700
 They come to me.

962
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:47,700
 Yeah.

963
00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:48,700
 Yeah, of course.

964
00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:54,700
 And honestly, a lot of the, um, the, a lot of the time is, it's just, uh, doing user

965
00:40:54,700 --> 00:40:58,700
 support because people ask things and I'm glad because the people are using it.

966
00:40:58,700 --> 00:41:02,700
 But it's also tiring because there's a lot of questions and what happened here?

967
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:03,700
 And this guy, this doesn't work.

968
00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:06,700
 So it was a good signal.

969
00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:09,700
 It was a good signal that people are actually using it.

970
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:10,700
 Yeah.

971
00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:12,700
 You know, customer support is obviously hell.

972
00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:13,700
 Yeah.

973
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:17,700
 So it would be way easier if there were like 50 apps or actually right now, I think there

974
00:41:17,700 --> 00:41:18,700
 are about, what?

975
00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:20,700
 150 Nostra signed apps.

976
00:41:20,700 --> 00:41:21,700
 Awesome.

977
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:22,700
 Awesome.

978
00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:23,700
 That would have been one of my questions.

979
00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:25,700
 What's the kind of the ratio now?

980
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:31,700
 And because I, I noticed that myself that, um, like, I think Vitor from Amethyst was one

981
00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:36,700
 of the first people starting to, uh, publish on SAP store.

982
00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:38,700
 There were a couple of first movers, right?

983
00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:44,700
 And, and, um, now a lot of the apps that I use are signed by the actual developers.

984
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:48,700
 So there was, for me, I saw this as a user that, oh, wow.

985
00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:51,700
 Suddenly like that doesn't actually say signed by SAP store.

986
00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:53,700
 It's actually signed by the guy who built it and so on.

987
00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:54,700
 And so that's really cool.

988
00:41:54,700 --> 00:42:01,700
 So, so what's the, what's your feeling in terms of adoption and did this coincide with

989
00:42:01,700 --> 00:42:05,700
 the tools you pushed out like, um, CSP and so on?

990
00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:06,700
 Yeah.

991
00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:11,700
 I think, I think that made it even easier, um, to, you know, the point we were talking

992
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:14,700
 about earlier, uh, that, that it's just ways.

993
00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:16,700
 And also the, the tools to build apps are easier.

994
00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:20,700
 So then this one, the, the, the bar has lowered for, for doing that.

995
00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:21,700
 Yeah.

996
00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:23,700
 Now people just instruct their agents basically.

997
00:42:23,700 --> 00:42:24,700
 Yeah.

998
00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:28,700
 And so there's like, honestly, I've been surprised for the kind of quality apps.

999
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:32,700
 Obviously there's a bit of everything, but, uh, there's some apps that are really nice.

1000
00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:38,700
 And actually some people that were not on Nostar that came, you know, they, they, they open

1001
00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:43,700
 their, their, they, they generate the keys and they're more active on socials.

1002
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:45,700
 They have their, their profile, their Nostar profile.

1003
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:46,700
 And then they publish an app.

1004
00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:47,700
 Yeah.

1005
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:51,700
 So that's really nice to see that they were coming from other places and because they wanted

1006
00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:52,700
 to be on SAP store.

1007
00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:53,700
 So people from outside our bubble.

1008
00:42:53,700 --> 00:42:54,700
 Absolutely.

1009
00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:57,700
 They figured out how to get into SAP store and that's how they landed on Nostar basically.

1010
00:42:57,700 --> 00:42:58,700
 Yeah.

1011
00:42:58,700 --> 00:43:00,700
 And that was always like my hope as well.

1012
00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:01,700
 Yeah.

1013
00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:08,700
 I think, and since you don't need necessarily to know about Nostar to use it, that, that brings

1014
00:43:08,700 --> 00:43:10,700
 people from, from outside more easily.

1015
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:11,700
 Yeah.

1016
00:43:11,700 --> 00:43:12,700
 Yeah.

1017
00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:16,700
 Um, and obviously that I always thought about it as a bit of a little Trojan horse.

1018
00:43:16,700 --> 00:43:17,700
 Yeah.

1019
00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:22,700
 Again, a theme that was talking about, like, don't, you know, don't push Nostar and Bitcoin.

1020
00:43:22,700 --> 00:43:23,700
 Yeah.

1021
00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:24,700
 Yeah.

1022
00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:25,700
 I mean, the Bitcoins and all this, right?

1023
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:26,700
 Yeah.

1024
00:43:26,700 --> 00:43:27,700
 The B word.

1025
00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:28,700
 Talk about Bitcoin without talking about Bitcoin.

1026
00:43:28,700 --> 00:43:29,700
 Money.

1027
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:30,700
 Just money.

1028
00:43:30,700 --> 00:43:35,700
 And then I think on Nostar, everyone's learning the same thing is like, basically no one cares.

1029
00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:39,700
 And the good thing that Nostar is going for it is like, it doesn't have a negative connotation

1030
00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:40,700
 like Bitcoin does.

1031
00:43:40,700 --> 00:43:41,700
 Hmm.

1032
00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:46,700
 Like you don't immediately think about, I don't know, you know, like dark markets or, you

1033
00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:49,700
 know, like rich tech bros, uh, when you hear Nostar.

1034
00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:50,700
 Yeah.

1035
00:43:50,700 --> 00:43:52,700
 Um, for Bitcoin, that's very much the case.

1036
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:53,700
 Exactly.

1037
00:43:53,700 --> 00:43:54,700
 No, no, absolutely.

1038
00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:59,700
 But I think, I think it's a good strategy to just basically, I mean, it's salesman one-on-one,

1039
00:43:59,700 --> 00:44:00,700
 right?

1040
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:03,700
 Like it's the, no one cares.

1041
00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:05,700
 No one cares about what this thing can do.

1042
00:44:05,700 --> 00:44:08,700
 It, everyone cares like what it enables to do.

1043
00:44:08,700 --> 00:44:13,700
 Like there's, I think there, uh, there used to be one poster where like, how did all the

1044
00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:15,700
 MP3 players market themselves?

1045
00:44:15,700 --> 00:44:20,700
 And it was like, you know, 200 gigabytes, blah, here and there, 512 megabytes, whatever it

1046
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:21,700
 was back in the day.

1047
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:21,700
 Yeah.

1048
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:28,700
 And, um, I think the iPad came around and it was just like, you know, uh, 2,000 songs in

1049
00:44:28,700 --> 00:44:29,700
 your pocket or something like that.

1050
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:30,700
 You know?

1051
00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:31,700
 Yeah.

1052
00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:32,700
 Like something else entirely.

1053
00:44:32,700 --> 00:44:33,700
 Like no technical specs, nothing.

1054
00:44:33,700 --> 00:44:34,700
 Yeah.

1055
00:44:34,700 --> 00:44:35,700
 But something that people actually care about.

1056
00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:36,700
 Yeah.

1057
00:44:36,700 --> 00:44:37,700
 Oh, I can have 2,000 songs in my pocket.

1058
00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:39,700
 Like I'm going to buy the thing.

1059
00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:43,700
 And I think that's what a lot of the NOSTA people are discovering now that, that, that

1060
00:44:43,700 --> 00:44:47,700
 technicalities of, you know, you're in control of your keys and you know, like you can run

1061
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:53,700
 your own relay and so on, are less important than what it actually enables you to do.

1062
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:58,700
 And I think you mentioned some of the things like as a user, you can just download an app

1063
00:44:58,700 --> 00:45:04,700
 and be relatively sure that it's what you want to have and that it isn't problematic.

1064
00:45:04,700 --> 00:45:09,700
 And as a developer without going through any KYC hoops and sign up hoops and without, you

1065
00:45:09,700 --> 00:45:13,700
 know, like, I mean, for Apple, for example, you have to get a developer account and actually

1066
00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:14,700
 pay money and all those kinds of things.

1067
00:45:14,700 --> 00:45:15,700
 Yeah.

1068
00:45:15,700 --> 00:45:16,700
 You can just publish an app.

1069
00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:17,700
 Yeah.

1070
00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:18,700
 Yeah.

1071
00:45:18,700 --> 00:45:19,700
 So publish without friction, basically.

1072
00:45:19,700 --> 00:45:20,700
 Yeah.

1073
00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:21,700
 Yeah.

1074
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:22,700
 On the developer side.

1075
00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:27,700
 And now it's, it's getting, it's going to get a bit strange in the Android world because

1076
00:45:27,700 --> 00:45:33,700
 maybe you're aware that Google now, yeah, was tightening, tightening the screws.

1077
00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:34,700
 Right?

1078
00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:38,700
 Well, maybe that's why, because when you're on graphene, it's like, okay, life is great here.

1079
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:48,700
 So, but when you have users that are on stock Android, then Google is going to enforce registration

1080
00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:51,700
 for, for developers, which, which basically includes KYC.

1081
00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:52,700
 Yeah.

1082
00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:56,700
 And probably a fee too.

1083
00:45:56,700 --> 00:45:58,700
 Uh, just to be able to even sideload.

1084
00:45:58,700 --> 00:45:59,700
 That's the way they say.

1085
00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:00,700
 That's the technical term they use.

1086
00:46:00,700 --> 00:46:01,700
 Yeah.

1087
00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:06,700
 To, um, to install apps from like just other sources than the play store.

1088
00:46:06,700 --> 00:46:07,700
 Yeah.

1089
00:46:07,700 --> 00:46:11,700
 And that's, that's going to require you to, to go through that, which a lot of developers

1090
00:46:11,700 --> 00:46:16,700
 obviously don't want to, don't want to do for many reasons and also friction.

1091
00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:17,700
 And I don't know.

1092
00:46:17,700 --> 00:46:22,700
 That's going to be a bit of a challenge for, for Zapsar adoption, to be honest.

1093
00:46:22,700 --> 00:46:26,700
 Uh, some, some apps will just like go, will install just straight.

1094
00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:30,700
 Others maybe will get, you know, get refused by the operating system.

1095
00:46:30,700 --> 00:46:32,700
 What's your take on the whole situation?

1096
00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:36,700
 And what do you think will actually happen in the next, I don't know, year or two or how

1097
00:46:36,700 --> 00:46:38,700
 far out is all this?

1098
00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:39,700
 Yes.

1099
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:44,700
 And what's your, like the, the one headline I read is the Motorola graphene partnership,

1100
00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:45,700
 right?

1101
00:46:45,700 --> 00:46:46,700
 Mm-hmm.

1102
00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:49,700
 So talk me through that kind of from your perspective.

1103
00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:56,700
 What do you think is likely to happen and what might be a way out of the Google KYC mess?

1104
00:46:56,700 --> 00:46:59,700
 Oh man, it's, uh, it's going to be hard.

1105
00:46:59,700 --> 00:47:02,700
 Uh, but I see, I see galvanization.

1106
00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:09,700
 Like there's a point in what, in which the grays are, are, are ending and it's like kind

1107
00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:10,700
 of black or white.

1108
00:47:10,700 --> 00:47:11,700
 All right.

1109
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:12,700
 You kind of go to the gulag.

1110
00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:13,700
 No.

1111
00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:14,700
 Yeah.

1112
00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:15,700
 No more gray area.

1113
00:47:15,700 --> 00:47:16,700
 I see.

1114
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:17,700
 No more.

1115
00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:18,700
 Yeah.

1116
00:47:18,700 --> 00:47:21,700
 It's like, oh yeah, well I just stock Android and use app store on it and it's just fine.

1117
00:47:21,700 --> 00:47:25,700
 You're, you're, you're either fully KYC the user or developer or you're a terrorist.

1118
00:47:25,700 --> 00:47:26,700
 Uh, exactly.

1119
00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:27,700
 That's basically what we're looking at.

1120
00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:29,700
 That's basically what they're pushing us to.

1121
00:47:29,700 --> 00:47:30,700
 Yeah.

1122
00:47:30,700 --> 00:47:35,700
 So I don't know, man, like it's, uh, I think usage will, so this will, as I was saying,

1123
00:47:35,700 --> 00:47:43,700
 this will galvanize people and this will make more users seek a graphene OS and alternative

1124
00:47:43,700 --> 00:47:44,700
 stores.

1125
00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:49,700
 Uh, the ability of like freedom of expression and freedom of reach for tools.

1126
00:47:49,700 --> 00:47:50,700
 Yeah.

1127
00:47:50,700 --> 00:47:51,700
 Right.

1128
00:47:51,700 --> 00:47:54,700
 Because that's kind of a prerequisite to be able to communicate.

1129
00:47:54,700 --> 00:47:55,700
 Yeah.

1130
00:47:55,700 --> 00:47:57,700
 You need the tools to be able to do that.

1131
00:47:57,700 --> 00:47:58,700
 Yeah.

1132
00:47:58,700 --> 00:47:59,700
 Yeah.

1133
00:47:59,700 --> 00:48:03,700
 It doesn't matter if we are all hyped about bit chat and, and champion it and all those

1134
00:48:03,700 --> 00:48:04,700
 kind of things.

1135
00:48:04,700 --> 00:48:05,700
 If you can't even install it on your device.

1136
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:06,700
 Yeah.

1137
00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:07,700
 Yeah.

1138
00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:08,700
 Yeah.

1139
00:48:08,700 --> 00:48:12,700
 So there, uh, certain features even that I'd love to have, but it's just all about like

1140
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:16,700
 trying to manage, uh, priorities and managing resources.

1141
00:48:16,700 --> 00:48:23,700
 Um, for example, uh, the idea that was introduced by, by bitch at, I think I'm not wrong that

1142
00:48:23,700 --> 00:48:26,700
 you can send a copy of bitch at over Bluetooth or something.

1143
00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:27,700
 Right.

1144
00:48:27,700 --> 00:48:32,700
 So that doesn't seem to be an urgency at the moment, but we had the ability to do it and we,

1145
00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:33,700
 it should be possible.

1146
00:48:33,700 --> 00:48:34,700
 It should be possible.

1147
00:48:34,700 --> 00:48:36,700
 So I think this is really cool.

1148
00:48:36,700 --> 00:48:41,700
 Like, I mean, not only send the, that's, that's kind of industrial idea, right?

1149
00:48:41,700 --> 00:48:45,700
 Like the source shouldn't matter which server you downloaded from shouldn't matter.

1150
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:46,700
 Yeah.

1151
00:48:46,700 --> 00:48:47,700
 It's just the signature matters.

1152
00:48:47,700 --> 00:48:51,700
 And so you can sign the app and, and just send it around with how you get it, whether

1153
00:48:51,700 --> 00:48:54,700
 it's USB stick or carry a pigeon or Bluetooth or whatever.

1154
00:48:54,700 --> 00:48:57,700
 So we shouldn't have the R in Nostra then.

1155
00:48:57,700 --> 00:48:58,700
 Yeah.

1156
00:48:58,700 --> 00:49:00,700
 I mean, lots of people share this opinion.

1157
00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:05,700
 There's lots of people that want to do peer to peer, pure peer to peer stuff on Nostra.

1158
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:06,700
 Yeah.

1159
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:09,700
 Um, but you know, like that has its own issues.

1160
00:49:09,700 --> 00:49:10,700
 Would you look at that?

1161
00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:11,700
 That's so cute.

1162
00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:12,700
 Yeah.

1163
00:49:12,700 --> 00:49:14,700
 That's a, that's an interesting blockade.

1164
00:49:14,700 --> 00:49:17,700
 Like let's not get attacked by wild animals.

1165
00:49:17,700 --> 00:49:18,700
 Yeah.

1166
00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:23,700
 It's a, this is a, this is a bathroom area essentially.

1167
00:49:23,700 --> 00:49:25,700
 Everyone is stopped in their tracks.

1168
00:49:25,700 --> 00:49:29,700
 They're just putting mines on the road.

1169
00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:34,700
 Very, very cute.

1170
00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:35,700
 Very cute and fluffy.

1171
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:36,700
 We're just looking at cute ducks.

1172
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:37,700
 Yeah.

1173
00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:38,700
 Yeah.

1174
00:49:38,700 --> 00:49:40,700
 A bunch of ducklings blocking the street.

1175
00:49:40,700 --> 00:49:44,700
 So.

1176
00:49:44,700 --> 00:49:48,700
 So you think things have to get worse before they get better, kind of?

1177
00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:50,700
 Like remove the gray area?

1178
00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:52,700
 Things will get that way.

1179
00:49:52,700 --> 00:49:54,700
 It's not that short or whatever.

1180
00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:55,700
 Like they will get that way.

1181
00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:56,700
 Yeah.

1182
00:49:56,700 --> 00:50:03,700
 No, but I mean, I think people are still fine with using the fully permissioned systems,

1183
00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:04,700
 developers and users.

1184
00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:05,700
 Right.

1185
00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:13,700
 And, and I think any, any kind of move that makes the permissioned ecosystem harder to use

1186
00:50:13,700 --> 00:50:18,700
 or more, more cumbersome to use is eventually good for the permissionless system.

1187
00:50:18,700 --> 00:50:19,700
 Yeah.

1188
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:20,700
 Yeah.

1189
00:50:20,700 --> 00:50:22,700
 Let me make, let me make a completely different example out of left field.

1190
00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:26,700
 It's like Netflix was great when there was just Netflix.

1191
00:50:26,700 --> 00:50:27,700
 Yeah.

1192
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:28,700
 Like, like Netflix killed Pirate Bay, right?

1193
00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:29,700
 Basically.

1194
00:50:29,700 --> 00:50:30,700
 Yeah.

1195
00:50:30,700 --> 00:50:34,700
 And then it got everything like fast forward 10 years, everything got more cumbersome because

1196
00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:36,700
 you want to watch a movie or a TV series.

1197
00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:38,700
 We've all these exclusives now.

1198
00:50:38,700 --> 00:50:44,700
 And so you basically need not one Netflix subscription, but you need Netflix and Hulu and Disney Plus and like 17 others.

1199
00:50:44,700 --> 00:50:45,700
 We're back at square one.

1200
00:50:45,700 --> 00:50:49,700
 And now people like, Pirate Bay usage is up again, you know, like that's kind of my point.

1201
00:50:49,700 --> 00:50:53,700
 Like people go back to the, to the permissionless frictionless system.

1202
00:50:53,700 --> 00:50:54,700
 Yeah.

1203
00:50:54,700 --> 00:50:55,700
 Yeah.

1204
00:50:55,700 --> 00:51:01,700
 And I think it's a similar dynamic at play here where, um, where kind of the more cumbersome

1205
00:51:01,700 --> 00:51:06,700
 it gets to, as a developer, for example, publish, get your app in the app stores.

1206
00:51:06,700 --> 00:51:09,700
 The more people will discover SAP store and find ways around.

1207
00:51:09,700 --> 00:51:10,700
 Yeah.

1208
00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:14,700
 Again, it all, it all has to do with, with the people using it.

1209
00:51:14,700 --> 00:51:19,700
 That's what's so important to have a lot of people using it is because that is what it will attract developers.

1210
00:51:19,700 --> 00:51:25,700
 If you know that sure, it's super easy to publish, but five people are looking at it.

1211
00:51:25,700 --> 00:51:26,700
 Yeah.

1212
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:27,700
 Like why even bother?

1213
00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:28,700
 Yeah.

1214
00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:31,700
 And that, that just disincentivize developers.

1215
00:51:31,700 --> 00:51:39,700
 Uh, so that's why I'm so obsessed with, with that part, you know, of we need, we need users, a lot of them.

1216
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:40,700
 Yeah.

1217
00:51:40,700 --> 00:51:45,700
 Is there, uh, that might, I already regret asking the question.

1218
00:51:45,700 --> 00:51:46,700
 Oh dear.

1219
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:47,700
 But what about iOS?

1220
00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:48,700
 Oh man.

1221
00:51:48,700 --> 00:51:49,700
 Oh really?

1222
00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:50,700
 There's no chance in hell to make anything like it on iOS work.

1223
00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:51,700
 So, okay.

1224
00:51:51,700 --> 00:51:52,700
 I did explore the, the idea.

1225
00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:53,700
 There's a few angles.

1226
00:51:53,700 --> 00:51:53,700
 Um, I don't know if you're aware of alt store on iOS.

1227
00:51:53,700 --> 00:51:53,700
 I know the, yeah.

1228
00:51:53,700 --> 00:51:54,700
 I know the stores that exist.

1229
00:51:54,700 --> 00:51:55,700
 Yeah.

1230
00:51:55,700 --> 00:51:56,700
 Kind of.

1231
00:51:56,700 --> 00:51:57,700
 It's, it's actually really interesting because, uh, they, we kind of, they predate sub store

1232
00:51:57,700 --> 00:51:58,700
 by, by quite a lot.

1233
00:51:58,700 --> 00:51:59,700
 Yeah.

1234
00:51:59,700 --> 00:52:00,700
 Yeah.

1235
00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:01,700
 I'm not sure they're aware of us.

1236
00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:02,700
 And when I came up with this whole thing, I was not really aware of alt store.

1237
00:52:02,700 --> 00:52:03,700
 So we have these two parts.

1238
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:04,700
 Yeah.

1239
00:52:04,700 --> 00:52:05,700
 Yeah.

1240
00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:06,700
 Yeah.

1241
00:52:06,700 --> 00:52:07,700
 Yeah.

1242
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:08,700
 Yeah.

1243
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:09,700
 Yeah.

1244
00:52:09,700 --> 00:52:10,700
 Yeah.

1245
00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:11,700
 And when I came up with this whole thing, I was not really aware of alt store.

1246
00:52:11,700 --> 00:52:12,700
 So we have these two parallel paths basically.

1247
00:52:12,700 --> 00:52:13,700
 Yeah.

1248
00:52:13,700 --> 00:52:14,700
 Yeah.

1249
00:52:14,700 --> 00:52:15,700
 Yeah.

1250
00:52:15,700 --> 00:52:16,700
 Yeah.

1251
00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:31,700
 And when I came up with this whole thing, I was not really aware of alt store.

1252
00:52:31,700 --> 00:52:35,700
 So we have these two parallel paths basically.

1253
00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:40,700
 And now I listened recently to a podcast because they, you know, they want like the VC route

1254
00:52:40,700 --> 00:52:49,700
 and raise money and also, um, are really into a social things, but they're like Fediverse,

1255
00:52:49,700 --> 00:52:50,700
 right?

1256
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:51,700
 There's like the Fediverse people.

1257
00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:57,700
 And, um, for money, I don't know, I guess it's just Fiat, uh, PayPal.

1258
00:52:57,700 --> 00:52:58,700
 Yeah.

1259
00:52:58,700 --> 00:53:01,700
 So it's PayPal, Fediverse and iOS basically.

1260
00:53:01,700 --> 00:53:04,700
 Uh, and we're like more Android, Bitcoin and Oster, right?

1261
00:53:04,700 --> 00:53:05,700
 Yeah.

1262
00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:09,700
 But that said, it's like a similar, a very similar concept.

1263
00:53:09,700 --> 00:53:20,700
 And, uh, they started out by building a kind of hacky way to load apps on an iPhone by self-signing.

1264
00:53:20,700 --> 00:53:21,700
 Mm-hmm.

1265
00:53:21,700 --> 00:53:29,700
 So you just, once you get the IPA, which is like the, the package format of an iPhone app, like equivalent to the APK.

1266
00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:34,700
 You could just pretend it was you who developed it and you're just testing it on your device.

1267
00:53:34,700 --> 00:53:35,700
 Yeah.

1268
00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:37,700
 And that's how it basically, uh, was working.

1269
00:53:37,700 --> 00:53:42,700
 That said, there are a lot of issues on the way because you need an Apple account.

1270
00:53:42,700 --> 00:53:43,700
 Yeah.

1271
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:44,700
 I don't think, I don't think.

1272
00:53:44,700 --> 00:53:45,700
 You need Xcode, right?

1273
00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:46,700
 I don't think, uh, yeah.

1274
00:53:46,700 --> 00:53:47,700
 Or the Xcode developer tools.

1275
00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:48,700
 You need the developer tools.

1276
00:53:48,700 --> 00:53:51,700
 I think for that, there's like two tiers, let's say.

1277
00:53:51,700 --> 00:53:56,700
 For that one, you don't need, uh, an Apple developer account, I think.

1278
00:53:56,700 --> 00:53:57,700
 Mm-hmm.

1279
00:53:57,700 --> 00:53:59,700
 Which is like, uh, 99 USD a year.

1280
00:53:59,700 --> 00:54:00,700
 Yeah.

1281
00:54:00,700 --> 00:54:04,700
 But for the second tier, uh, yes, you need a developer account.

1282
00:54:04,700 --> 00:54:06,700
 However, you can install any amount of apps.

1283
00:54:06,700 --> 00:54:07,700
 Mm-hmm.

1284
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:09,700
 Whereas with the first one, I think it's about six.

1285
00:54:09,700 --> 00:54:10,700
 Okay.

1286
00:54:10,700 --> 00:54:11,700
 And you need to refresh every three days.

1287
00:54:11,700 --> 00:54:15,700
 Because how many, how many things can you develop and test?

1288
00:54:15,700 --> 00:54:16,700
 Yeah.

1289
00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:18,700
 That's, uh, that's, uh, rationale for that limit.

1290
00:54:18,700 --> 00:54:19,700
 Yeah.

1291
00:54:19,700 --> 00:54:20,700
 Yeah.

1292
00:54:20,700 --> 00:54:21,700
 If you have like, let's say you have a 200 agents running.

1293
00:54:21,700 --> 00:54:22,700
 Yeah.

1294
00:54:22,700 --> 00:54:23,700
 Uh, producing apps.

1295
00:54:23,700 --> 00:54:27,700
 Like that, that limit, that limit was created before in a different time.

1296
00:54:27,700 --> 00:54:29,700
 It's super cake, even the whole process.

1297
00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:32,700
 Like you can develop an app in an hour.

1298
00:54:32,700 --> 00:54:33,700
 Yeah.

1299
00:54:33,700 --> 00:54:34,700
 Sorry.

1300
00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:35,700
 How are we doing on time?

1301
00:54:35,700 --> 00:54:36,700
 Five minutes.

1302
00:54:36,700 --> 00:54:39,700
 We'll do, we'll do, we'll do one more, one more bridge.

1303
00:54:39,700 --> 00:54:43,700
 Oh man.

1304
00:54:43,700 --> 00:54:44,700
 Yeah.

1305
00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:45,700
 So there would be a way to do it.

1306
00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:46,700
 There would be a way to do it on the iOS.

1307
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:49,700
 It's essentially, that's what I was trying to, to go after.

1308
00:54:49,700 --> 00:54:58,700
 Like, can we, by requiring a developer account, being able to, because you got like kind of unlimited

1309
00:54:58,700 --> 00:55:01,700
 apps and also it requires a refresh every year, I believe.

1310
00:55:01,700 --> 00:55:02,700
 Okay.

1311
00:55:02,700 --> 00:55:03,700
 So that's much more usable.

1312
00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:07,700
 And like, like if that prerequisite, like if people agree with that prerequisite, like,

1313
00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:16,700
 uh, have a developer account and somehow, don't ask me how, trusted us with the credentials

1314
00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:19,700
 that we can maybe place on a secure enclave or something like that.

1315
00:55:19,700 --> 00:55:25,700
 Uh, we could be signing apps and delivering over the wire, over the air, uh, updates.

1316
00:55:25,700 --> 00:55:26,700
 Yeah.

1317
00:55:26,700 --> 00:55:27,700
 On the apps.

1318
00:55:27,700 --> 00:55:28,700
 So that would work.

1319
00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:32,700
 And that's like more the technical approach, but then you could have the more like legal,

1320
00:55:32,700 --> 00:55:38,700
 let's say, for example, in the EU, you could have legally an alternative marketplace, uh,

1321
00:55:38,700 --> 00:55:41,700
 uh, on Apple, which is also what ad store is doing that right now.

1322
00:55:41,700 --> 00:55:43,700
 So honestly, it's very tricky.

1323
00:55:43,700 --> 00:55:49,700
 Uh, it will require having probably a, a bunch of extra devs on, on Zapster to do that.

1324
00:55:49,700 --> 00:55:50,700
 Yeah.

1325
00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:51,700
 Yeah.

1326
00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:54,700
 But yeah, I don't want to kill myself in the process.

1327
00:55:54,700 --> 00:55:55,700
 No, no, no, no, no.

1328
00:55:55,700 --> 00:55:59,700
 I'm, I'm, I'm glad you're still alive by the way, because I know that building it, building

1329
00:55:59,700 --> 00:56:01,700
 such a thing out is anything but easy.

1330
00:56:01,700 --> 00:56:02,700
 Yeah.

1331
00:56:02,700 --> 00:56:08,700
 But yeah, I mean, if we're talking mass adoption and so on, then I, I, I'm kind of, I'm a little

1332
00:56:08,700 --> 00:56:13,700
 bit allergic, getting more allergic by the, by the minute, uh, when it comes to the mass

1333
00:56:13,700 --> 00:56:15,700
 adoption idea, I have to say.

1334
00:56:15,700 --> 00:56:16,700
 Yeah.

1335
00:56:16,700 --> 00:56:21,700
 Because I, I do think that both Bitcoin and Noster are, it's mostly for people at the end.

1336
00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:22,700
 Yeah.

1337
00:56:22,700 --> 00:56:27,700
 Like people that got the bank, people that lived through hyperinflation, then like, I don't

1338
00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:29,700
 need to explain Bitcoin to you.

1339
00:56:29,700 --> 00:56:34,700
 And on like on the Zap store side, for example, like if, if, if, if your app is controversial

1340
00:56:34,700 --> 00:56:42,700
 enough and you have trouble getting into app stores or also like if you are from a region

1341
00:56:42,700 --> 00:56:48,700
 where it's really hard to get a credit card and stuff like that, then those things are a

1342
00:56:48,700 --> 00:56:52,700
 godsend and you don't have to go through the official routes that don't let you through

1343
00:56:52,700 --> 00:56:55,700
 because you don't have a passport or you don't, can't get a credit card and those kinds of

1344
00:56:55,700 --> 00:56:56,700
 things.

1345
00:56:56,700 --> 00:56:57,700
 Yeah.

1346
00:56:57,700 --> 00:57:01,700
 And so I think by the, by definition, this stuff is kind of like built for people on the edges

1347
00:57:01,700 --> 00:57:02,700
 in some sense.

1348
00:57:02,700 --> 00:57:07,700
 Uh, I don't want to discourage you to bring as many users as possible.

1349
00:57:07,700 --> 00:57:10,700
 It's just kind of like my, my general take right now.

1350
00:57:10,700 --> 00:57:11,700
 Yeah.

1351
00:57:11,700 --> 00:57:12,700
 Yeah.

1352
00:57:12,700 --> 00:57:17,700
 It's, it's, it's actually like when we say these words, they don't really like, um, users,

1353
00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:20,700
 a lot, a lot of users, what does that even mean?

1354
00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:22,700
 Do you want to talk about numbers?

1355
00:57:22,700 --> 00:57:27,700
 Because I could say a lot of users could be, I don't know, like 20,000.

1356
00:57:27,700 --> 00:57:28,700
 Yeah.

1357
00:57:28,700 --> 00:57:29,700
 30,000.

1358
00:57:29,700 --> 00:57:30,700
 Yeah.

1359
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:33,700
 Which if you compare with the amount of, uh, Android users in the world.

1360
00:57:33,700 --> 00:57:34,700
 Yeah.

1361
00:57:34,700 --> 00:57:38,700
 Which by the way are way more than I was using 4 billion.

1362
00:57:38,700 --> 00:57:39,700
 Yeah.

1363
00:57:39,700 --> 00:57:40,700
 Right.

1364
00:57:40,700 --> 00:57:41,700
 Yeah.

1365
00:57:41,700 --> 00:57:42,700
 Yeah.

1366
00:57:42,700 --> 00:57:48,700
 Half of the world uses, has, it has, uses Android, let's say daily or something.

1367
00:57:48,700 --> 00:57:49,700
 That's nothing.

1368
00:57:49,700 --> 00:57:50,700
 Yeah.

1369
00:57:50,700 --> 00:57:51,700
 Sure.

1370
00:57:51,700 --> 00:57:53,700
 So that's not mass adoption as you would put it.

1371
00:57:53,700 --> 00:57:54,700
 Yeah.

1372
00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:57,700
 It's like the, as the, as the, as the VCs or, or, or no, no.

1373
00:57:57,700 --> 00:57:58,700
 That's not what I mean.

1374
00:57:58,700 --> 00:57:59,700
 Yeah.

1375
00:57:59,700 --> 00:58:00,700
 Yeah.

1376
00:58:00,700 --> 00:58:01,700
 But yes.

1377
00:58:01,700 --> 00:58:02,700
 Yes.

1378
00:58:02,700 --> 00:58:03,700
 I mean, I don't want to have a hundred users.

1379
00:58:03,700 --> 00:58:04,700
 Yeah.

1380
00:58:04,700 --> 00:58:06,700
 Like that doesn't incentivize people to actually, you know, use it.

1381
00:58:06,700 --> 00:58:07,700
 Yeah.

1382
00:58:07,700 --> 00:58:08,700
 And come and publish there.

1383
00:58:08,700 --> 00:58:09,700
 Yeah.

1384
00:58:09,700 --> 00:58:10,700
 Yeah.

1385
00:58:10,700 --> 00:58:13,700
 And I don't mean this in a, in a, like, I don't know that don't get me wrong.

1386
00:58:13,700 --> 00:58:19,700
 I, I, I like for as many users to use Bitcoin and also properly.

1387
00:58:19,700 --> 00:58:22,700
 It's just getting people to use those things properly.

1388
00:58:22,700 --> 00:58:23,700
 Yeah.

1389
00:58:23,700 --> 00:58:24,700
 Has traditionally been very, very hard.

1390
00:58:24,700 --> 00:58:26,700
 Like, uh, I, I made this joke before.

1391
00:58:26,700 --> 00:58:29,700
 It's like, I'm, I'm the biggest believer in wrecked education.

1392
00:58:29,700 --> 00:58:31,700
 I don't think there is another way.

1393
00:58:31,700 --> 00:58:33,700
 It's like people have to get wrecked and then they'll learn.

1394
00:58:33,700 --> 00:58:38,700
 There is no, like as someone who did Bitcoin education for over a decade, that's my conclusion.

1395
00:58:38,700 --> 00:58:44,700
 You know, I used to say 2% of people are curious enough to like dig deeper and actually learn

1396
00:58:44,700 --> 00:58:45,700
 it.

1397
00:58:45,700 --> 00:58:46,700
 Yeah.

1398
00:58:46,700 --> 00:58:47,700
 But I think it's closer to 0.2%.

1399
00:58:47,700 --> 00:58:49,700
 And I think what do you want to get?

1400
00:58:49,700 --> 00:58:51,700
 Linux is actually a great example.

1401
00:58:51,700 --> 00:58:53,700
 Like who got attracted by Linux?

1402
00:58:53,700 --> 00:58:55,700
 Like Linux conquered the world, right?

1403
00:58:55,700 --> 00:58:59,700
 But they didn't conquer the world by trying to appeal to the masses.

1404
00:58:59,700 --> 00:59:05,700
 They appeal to the neckbeards and one over time, but slowly, slowly, you know, and, and I think

1405
00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:12,700
 that's, I'd rather, I'd rather go down that road than kind of cater to, uh, the confused

1406
00:59:12,700 --> 00:59:18,700
 mob basically, you know, and, and just ruin the thing in the process, which is what would

1407
00:59:18,700 --> 00:59:20,700
 have happened to, to Linux.

1408
00:59:20,700 --> 00:59:21,700
 Absolutely.

1409
00:59:21,700 --> 00:59:26,700
 Like, you know, you, if you, if you just build out the things that everyone wants to see just

1410
00:59:26,700 --> 00:59:28,700
 because it's trendy right now, like you ruin the thing.

1411
00:59:28,700 --> 00:59:30,700
 It took a, it's ready for Linux.

1412
00:59:30,700 --> 00:59:31,700
 It took such a long time.

1413
00:59:31,700 --> 00:59:32,700
 Right.

1414
00:59:32,700 --> 00:59:34,700
 And now you have very, very usable distributions.

1415
00:59:34,700 --> 00:59:35,700
 Yeah.

1416
00:59:35,700 --> 00:59:37,700
 Uh, that just like regular people like to use.

1417
00:59:37,700 --> 00:59:38,700
 And also everything else around it.

1418
00:59:38,700 --> 00:59:40,700
 And they'd be popularized by YouTubers and so on.

1419
00:59:40,700 --> 00:59:41,700
 Yeah.

1420
00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:43,700
 And, and everything else around it implodes.

1421
00:59:43,700 --> 00:59:46,700
 I mean, PewDiePie is a Linux guy now.

1422
00:59:46,700 --> 00:59:47,700
 Exactly.

1423
00:59:47,700 --> 00:59:49,700
 Because just, just Windows shit the bat so hard.

1424
00:59:49,700 --> 00:59:50,700
 Even like DHH, right?

1425
00:59:50,700 --> 00:59:51,700
 Yeah, absolutely.

1426
00:59:51,700 --> 00:59:52,700
 Yeah.

1427
00:59:52,700 --> 00:59:53,700
 He hated on, on, on Linux all the time.

1428
00:59:53,700 --> 00:59:55,700
 He was the Mac power user number one.

1429
00:59:55,700 --> 00:59:57,700
 And now he built his own distro, you know?

1430
00:59:57,700 --> 00:59:59,700
 So in a way that makes me bullish, right?

1431
00:59:59,700 --> 01:00:01,700
 I agree with what you're saying.

1432
01:00:01,700 --> 01:00:04,700
 The fact that things are getting crazier.

1433
01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:05,700
 Yeah.

1434
01:00:05,700 --> 01:00:06,700
 Yeah.

1435
01:00:06,700 --> 01:00:10,700
 We were talking about Android specifically, but with age verification, that's coming to.

1436
01:00:10,700 --> 01:00:11,700
 Oh yeah.

1437
01:00:11,700 --> 01:00:14,700
 I mean, you have to scan a passport to display Minecraft.

1438
01:00:14,700 --> 01:00:15,700
 Yeah.

1439
01:00:15,700 --> 01:00:19,700
 Right now the same by voluntarily, I guess, sharing your age.

1440
01:00:19,700 --> 01:00:20,700
 Yeah.

1441
01:00:20,700 --> 01:00:21,700
 Yeah, yeah.

1442
01:00:21,700 --> 01:00:24,700
 But that's, there's some Linux distros that already said, we're not doing this.

1443
01:00:24,700 --> 01:00:27,700
 Or you, you know, it doesn't apply to us, whatever.

1444
01:00:27,700 --> 01:00:29,700
 Uh, that's also going to get galvanized.

1445
01:00:29,700 --> 01:00:32,700
 You have the Linux distros that are going to be KYC and all that stuff.

1446
01:00:32,700 --> 01:00:33,700
 Yeah.

1447
01:00:33,700 --> 01:00:34,700
 And you'll have to decide then.

1448
01:00:34,700 --> 01:00:35,700
 Sure.

1449
01:00:35,700 --> 01:00:36,700
 Yeah.

1450
01:00:36,700 --> 01:00:37,700
 Yeah.

1451
01:00:37,700 --> 01:00:38,700
 No, that's, that's how it's going to go.

1452
01:00:38,700 --> 01:00:42,700
 It's like, I remain bullish because it's also on the Bitcoin side, for example.

1453
01:00:42,700 --> 01:00:47,700
 Um, a while ago, there was a lot of talk about outlawing, you know, mining, outlawing, running

1454
01:00:47,700 --> 01:00:48,700
 notes, outlawing Bitcoin.

1455
01:00:48,700 --> 01:00:49,700
 I was always like, let's go.

1456
01:00:49,700 --> 01:00:50,700
 Like, especially in Germany or so.

1457
01:00:50,700 --> 01:00:53,700
 Like, you know, outlaw running notes, please do it.

1458
01:00:53,700 --> 01:00:57,700
 Let's push everything underground because then like everything will be tore by default.

1459
01:00:57,700 --> 01:00:59,700
 You know, everything like people will not stop running notes.

1460
01:00:59,700 --> 01:01:04,700
 You know, it's, it's just, it's just, uh, that will harden the whole ecosystem.

1461
01:01:04,700 --> 01:01:08,700
 So I think, I think there is a, there's something to be said about that.

1462
01:01:08,700 --> 01:01:14,700
 But yeah, I mean, for me, it feels like definitely on the user side, but, but I actually, I care

1463
01:01:14,700 --> 01:01:17,700
 more about the developers and the developer side of things.

1464
01:01:17,700 --> 01:01:19,700
 People are not radicalized enough yet.

1465
01:01:19,700 --> 01:01:25,700
 And so I hope more people will be radicalized by all the stupidity that's currently happening

1466
01:01:25,700 --> 01:01:27,700
 because that will actually bring real solutions.

1467
01:01:27,700 --> 01:01:29,700
 And I mean radical in a good way.

1468
01:01:29,700 --> 01:01:33,700
 I mean, you know, uh, like Richard Stallman is a radical, you know?

1469
01:01:33,700 --> 01:01:34,700
 Yeah.

1470
01:01:34,700 --> 01:01:35,700
 Linus Torvald is a radical.

1471
01:01:35,700 --> 01:01:38,700
 Like those are radical people, like uncompromising people.

1472
01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:40,700
 And there was a thing that radicalized them.

1473
01:01:40,700 --> 01:01:45,700
 And I hope that we'll, we'll have, you know, like, again, with all the stupidity coming

1474
01:01:45,700 --> 01:01:49,700
 down the line with, um, you know, you're not allowed to sideload apps, which means you're

1475
01:01:49,700 --> 01:01:52,700
 not allowed to install software that you wrote yourself.

1476
01:01:52,700 --> 01:01:55,700
 You're not allowed to install software that a friend of yours wrote.

1477
01:01:55,700 --> 01:01:57,700
 It's like, you don't even own the device and so on.

1478
01:01:57,700 --> 01:02:01,700
 And with all the age verification laws and all those kinds of things like that's, that's just

1479
01:02:01,700 --> 01:02:02,700
 pick your stupidity, you know?

1480
01:02:02,700 --> 01:02:05,700
 Like there's a whole bag of stupidity and it's being thrown at us.

1481
01:02:05,700 --> 01:02:07,700
 And I hope that it will radicalize some people.

1482
01:02:07,700 --> 01:02:11,700
 So that's my, my silver lining of the whole situation.

1483
01:02:11,700 --> 01:02:13,700
 You'll learn nothing and be happy.

1484
01:02:13,700 --> 01:02:15,700
 Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's going to be the goal.

1485
01:02:15,700 --> 01:02:17,700
 That's going to be the goal, unfortunately.

1486
01:02:17,700 --> 01:02:23,700
 But, um, yeah, I mean, I remain optimistic to me again, like to, to, to maybe end on a

1487
01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:24,700
 positive note.

1488
01:02:24,700 --> 01:02:26,700
 To me, it's amazing that something like snap store exists.

1489
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:31,700
 And again, like it, it, for over a year now, it has been my only app store.

1490
01:02:31,700 --> 01:02:34,700
 It's like, I, I flash graphene, I install snap store.

1491
01:02:34,700 --> 01:02:35,700
 I'm done.

1492
01:02:35,700 --> 01:02:36,700
 I don't need anything else.

1493
01:02:36,700 --> 01:02:38,700
 I'm, of course I'm a special case.

1494
01:02:38,700 --> 01:02:46,700
 I realize that I'm, I'm a, you know, like I'm, I don't want to compare myself to whatever

1495
01:02:46,700 --> 01:02:51,700
 my mom or even my wife or whatever to, to like, I use these things in a very peculiar

1496
01:02:51,700 --> 01:02:52,700
 way, but it works for me.

1497
01:02:52,700 --> 01:02:53,700
 And that's amazing.

1498
01:02:53,700 --> 01:02:55,700
 And it's, it's like, I love it.

1499
01:02:55,700 --> 01:02:58,700
 So, so we've come a long way already.

1500
01:02:58,700 --> 01:03:04,700
 And, um, yeah, I hope that anything that won't kill us will make us stronger kind of thing,

1501
01:03:04,700 --> 01:03:07,700
 you know, like with, with all the changes that are coming.

1502
01:03:07,700 --> 01:03:08,700
 Yeah.

1503
01:03:08,700 --> 01:03:13,700
 But to, to your point, you're maybe not for your wife, for your mom, but like, if things

1504
01:03:13,700 --> 01:03:15,700
 get really bad, eventually you'll be able to teach them.

1505
01:03:15,700 --> 01:03:17,700
 It will be obvious to them that that's.

1506
01:03:17,700 --> 01:03:18,700
 Yeah.

1507
01:03:18,700 --> 01:03:20,700
 I mean, I'm trying my, my wife's laptop is running Arch Linux.

1508
01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:21,700
 She hates it.

1509
01:03:21,700 --> 01:03:22,700
 It's not her choice.

1510
01:03:22,700 --> 01:03:27,700
 But you know, it's like, it works well enough.

1511
01:03:27,700 --> 01:03:30,700
 It works well enough for the little things that she needs to do.

1512
01:03:30,700 --> 01:03:31,700
 Yeah.

1513
01:03:31,700 --> 01:03:36,700
 And that's just, you know, the, the good thing about, I think graphene and zap store combo

1514
01:03:36,700 --> 01:03:39,700
 is it's not disgusting.

1515
01:03:39,700 --> 01:03:41,700
 It's like pretty good, actually.

1516
01:03:41,700 --> 01:03:42,700
 It is very, very good.

1517
01:03:42,700 --> 01:03:44,700
 And it's, it's getting better all the time.

1518
01:03:44,700 --> 01:03:46,700
 So maybe last, last two minutes.

1519
01:03:46,700 --> 01:03:48,700
 What, uh, what's, what's coming down the pipeline?

1520
01:03:48,700 --> 01:03:50,700
 What are we working on right now?

1521
01:03:50,700 --> 01:03:51,700
 Next couple of weeks, next couple of months.

1522
01:03:51,700 --> 01:03:52,700
 Yeah.

1523
01:03:52,700 --> 01:03:57,700
 So a lot of around, um, like finally doing the separation to communities.

1524
01:03:57,700 --> 01:04:01,700
 And like the idea will be, uh, offering by default two communities.

1525
01:04:01,700 --> 01:04:02,700
 Yeah.

1526
01:04:02,700 --> 01:04:09,700
 One will be, um, the zap store community, which is where devs, uh, self publish.

1527
01:04:09,700 --> 01:04:10,700
 Yeah.

1528
01:04:10,700 --> 01:04:16,700
 And then there will be like the, whatever indexer community, which is the apps we bring from elsewhere.

1529
01:04:16,700 --> 01:04:19,700
 So people who don't like that part can just switch it off immediately.

1530
01:04:19,700 --> 01:04:20,700
 Okay.

1531
01:04:20,700 --> 01:04:23,700
 And then we want to encourage people to, to run their own communities of apps.

1532
01:04:23,700 --> 01:04:24,700
 Which can be.

1533
01:04:24,700 --> 01:04:25,700
 Run their own indexers basically.

1534
01:04:25,700 --> 01:04:26,700
 Not only indexers.

1535
01:04:26,700 --> 01:04:33,700
 It could be, but, uh, you could have your own, like, I don't, community, community for kids.

1536
01:04:33,700 --> 01:04:34,700
 Let's say.

1537
01:04:34,700 --> 01:04:35,700
 Yeah.

1538
01:04:35,700 --> 01:04:36,700
 Yeah.

1539
01:04:36,700 --> 01:04:37,700
 Yeah.

1540
01:04:37,700 --> 01:04:38,700
 Yeah.

1541
01:04:38,700 --> 01:04:39,700
 Yeah.

1542
01:04:39,700 --> 01:04:42,700
 That's for, that's an easier way to group apps or have a collection of apps.

1543
01:04:42,700 --> 01:04:43,700
 Yeah.

1544
01:04:43,700 --> 01:04:45,700
 But if you want, let's say, uh, give the device to your, to your kid.

1545
01:04:45,700 --> 01:04:46,700
 Yeah.

1546
01:04:46,700 --> 01:04:50,700
 Well, then a community, um, where all apps are, are kid safe.

1547
01:04:50,700 --> 01:04:51,700
 Yeah.

1548
01:04:51,700 --> 01:04:52,700
 Right.

1549
01:04:52,700 --> 01:04:57,700
 So whether that's paid or not, whatever, like it's something that you could use on a device for, for a minor, let's say.

1550
01:04:57,700 --> 01:05:12,700
 Uh, so that, that kind of things also, uh, yeah, exploring the, the, the part of adding, I think this is super important, uh, is adding like malware, malware checks.

1551
01:05:12,700 --> 01:05:13,700
 Yeah.

1552
01:05:13,700 --> 01:05:16,700
 And, uh, privacy analysis.

1553
01:05:16,700 --> 01:05:17,700
 Yeah.

1554
01:05:17,700 --> 01:05:18,700
 Things like that.

1555
01:05:18,700 --> 01:05:19,700
 Reproducibility.

1556
01:05:19,700 --> 01:05:20,700
 Reproducibility.

1557
01:05:20,700 --> 01:05:22,700
 So I'd love to have all that.

1558
01:05:22,700 --> 01:05:23,700
 Okay.

1559
01:05:23,700 --> 01:05:24,700
 Okay.

1560
01:05:24,700 --> 01:05:25,700
 Okay.

1561
01:05:25,700 --> 01:05:26,700
 I see.

1562
01:05:26,700 --> 01:05:27,700
 Roughly that's the direction.

1563
01:05:27,700 --> 01:05:29,700
 How can, how can people help your project best?

1564
01:05:29,700 --> 01:05:30,700
 Someone listens to this.

1565
01:05:30,700 --> 01:05:31,700
 How can they help ZapStore?

1566
01:05:31,700 --> 01:05:35,700
 Uh, first, obviously become downloaded and become a user.

1567
01:05:35,700 --> 01:05:37,700
 ZapStore.dev, download.

1568
01:05:37,700 --> 01:05:38,700
 That's it.

1569
01:05:38,700 --> 01:05:41,700
 You, your option, you can verify, you know, uh, that the agent works.

1570
01:05:41,700 --> 01:05:43,700
 Uh, that the APK is, uh, signed by us.

1571
01:05:43,700 --> 01:05:44,700
 That's right here.

1572
01:05:44,700 --> 01:05:45,700
 Maybe.

1573
01:05:45,700 --> 01:05:46,700
 Otherwise we'll run it.

1574
01:05:46,700 --> 01:05:51,700
 Best way would be go to the, to ZapStore Noster page and just check that, you know, people

1575
01:05:51,700 --> 01:05:52,700
 that you trust are, are following it.

1576
01:05:52,700 --> 01:05:55,700
 And then the, on the bio, uh, there's the description.

1577
01:05:55,700 --> 01:05:59,700
 There's the links to download and to, if you want to verify it.

1578
01:05:59,700 --> 01:06:00,700
 Uh, but just do that.

1579
01:06:00,700 --> 01:06:06,700
 And then if you want to send a fat zaps, uh, super encouraged, uh, even on chain.

1580
01:06:06,700 --> 01:06:08,700
 How dare you?

1581
01:06:08,700 --> 01:06:09,700
 How dare you?

1582
01:06:09,700 --> 01:06:12,700
 I'll cut that part out.

1583
01:06:12,700 --> 01:06:14,700
 The only part of the whole part.

1584
01:06:14,700 --> 01:06:19,700
 And on the developer side.

1585
01:06:19,700 --> 01:06:21,700
 Uh, yeah, just get signing.

1586
01:06:21,700 --> 01:06:26,700
 And by the way, I'll end with a, with a, with something that we will be developing.

1587
01:06:26,700 --> 01:06:27,700
 It would be super important.

1588
01:06:27,700 --> 01:06:29,700
 It's, uh, I'm very challenging.

1589
01:06:29,700 --> 01:06:34,700
 It's the migration from, let's say we have Phoenix wallet that we index.

1590
01:06:34,700 --> 01:06:38,700
 What happens if Phoenix wallet shows up tomorrow and wants to self publish?

1591
01:06:38,700 --> 01:06:41,700
 Ah, that is quite, that's kind of a key rotation issue.

1592
01:06:41,700 --> 01:06:42,700
 Yeah.

1593
01:06:42,700 --> 01:06:50,700
 Um, not in the sense of the Android because that will work, but, um, yes, in terms of how, you know, the indexing needs to stop.

1594
01:06:50,700 --> 01:06:51,700
 Yeah.

1595
01:06:51,700 --> 01:06:52,700
 Checking that.

1596
01:06:52,700 --> 01:06:54,700
 But what happens if the developer stops publishing?

1597
01:06:54,700 --> 01:06:55,700
 Yeah.

1598
01:06:55,700 --> 01:06:59,700
 Then we need to, uh, like carry on ourselves.

1599
01:06:59,700 --> 01:07:00,700
 Yeah.

1600
01:07:00,700 --> 01:07:01,700
 Pick it up again.

1601
01:07:01,700 --> 01:07:02,700
 Pick it up again.

1602
01:07:02,700 --> 01:07:05,700
 That's very, very challenging.

1603
01:07:05,700 --> 01:07:06,700
 Awesome.

1604
01:07:06,700 --> 01:07:07,700
 Yeah.

1605
01:07:07,700 --> 01:07:08,700
 I know I said last question before.

1606
01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:09,700
 I have another one.

1607
01:07:09,700 --> 01:07:12,700
 Uh, if you know what you know now, would you do it again?

1608
01:07:12,700 --> 01:07:13,700
 No.

1609
01:07:13,700 --> 01:07:17,700
 Great answer.

1610
01:07:17,700 --> 01:07:18,700
 That was very quick.

1611
01:07:18,700 --> 01:07:19,700
 All right.

1612
01:07:19,700 --> 01:07:20,700
 We'll always end on a hug.

1613
01:07:20,700 --> 01:07:21,700
 Thanks so much.

1614
01:07:21,700 --> 01:07:22,700
 Thanks for indulging me.

1615
01:07:22,700 --> 01:07:24,700
 I, I completely sprang that on you.

1616
01:07:24,700 --> 01:07:25,700
 Yeah.

1617
01:07:25,700 --> 01:07:28,700
 Basically five minutes before we, before we started recording.

1618
01:07:28,700 --> 01:07:30,700
 An alien landed.

1619
01:07:30,700 --> 01:07:32,700
 And yeah, I, um, no, I think that was great.

1620
01:07:32,700 --> 01:07:39,700
 And I, I, yeah, I wish you all the success in the world and hope that everyone's going to just use this stuff and we'll get through it.

1621
01:07:39,700 --> 01:07:40,700
 And we'll be all labeled terrorists.

1622
01:07:40,700 --> 01:07:41,700
 This is how it's going to be.

1623
01:07:41,700 --> 01:07:43,700
 This is a brave new world.

1624
01:07:43,700 --> 01:07:45,700
 I appreciate it, man.

1625
01:07:45,700 --> 01:07:46,700
 All right.

1626
01:07:46,700 --> 01:07:47,700
 All right.