there are no secrets the only secret is to hit record yeah and then send it so
I told you about my by-blind I'm also building out a pipeline for the
recordings so I hope that very soon I'll just have to press record press save
and then like do a using Fia Jeff's the NUC you know like NAK do like a
touch publish and then everything is gonna be done you know how it works it's
just like you mount your file system you have it so so basically you get the
foot like the the pipeline makes a fully ready version yes yes and you just
have to decide when to when to publish because it's gonna the mp3 file is on
my phone you are the one of the biggest file system maxes I'm a file I love
files you love the files are Lindy and the and hierarchical files yes files are
Lindy and and I'm a big like convention over configuration guy yeah so the
way it works what is what does that mean exactly it's it's it's basically I
don't want to configure stuff I just want the system to tell me how it works
yeah and I want to have a file structure and things and and that's just how it
works yeah if you do it wrong everything breaks yeah it's it's rails was a big
conventional okay yeah yeah yeah it's just like you know this is if you have a
model name you do things around here you know and and you have to there is no
other way and so so what I want to have is like again like press record press
safe there's an mp3 file on my phone yeah it syncs using torrents with all my
other devices everything is run locally like this already it syncs using
torrent because sync thing uses torrent on it really yeah it does as far as I
know yes Wow I hope I'm not wrong but it's it's used back in the day when I
learned about it that's what I learned but but but we'll we'll someone will
yell is kind of interesting I was thinking about like blossom stuff I
forget what exactly I was wondering like what if you just changed a little bit
of the file like how can we make that like if I wanted to store because I was
thinking a little bit about like making like a Dropbox type thing yeah on blossom
yeah and it would be like with this this few is just like a fuels fuse file
system thing yeah like that's basically the drop boxes yeah it's like a virtual
file system that you that is mounted you don't see that but I think that's what
it is and like you could just totally do that where everything is saved on blossom
right yeah it is and the problem is like okay so you have a word document and you
just add a little bit to it unless you know so there's something I can't think
of an example but like a big thing like let's see you have a big video and you
just crop one minute one second off the end right do you save the entire thing
back up to awesome no it's that's the issue I talked about this with Pablo
just a couple days ago with kind of the the go-to example I use is like let's
say you have an article the very simple just a text and then you fix a typo yeah
yeah is it a new thing yeah like in the in the cryptographic hash as well it's a
new thing yeah but you still have like you have proximity hashes and those kind
of things where you can mitigate that yeah it's a very hard problem it's like
a speciation problem so you can't really solve it when is something because when
when do you make the kind of when is it just like yeah a typo fix or when is
it when is it a completely new thing yeah but this is one of the things that
makes Dropbox kind of good I bet this is one of things that makes things good
is that it doesn't necessarily clobber you know I think that the thing that
makes think good is it's very easy to reason about yeah I think that's I
think and I think that's important for systems in general that's why I love
files so much because they are easy to reason about it's like I have the file
I know like I can do stuff with it yeah and and I use the file system as a
source of truth a lot I don't like things that scan through files and build
databases yeah because the stuff is always like out of sync yeah like the
file disappears or is corrupt or something and still in the database and
then it's like what do you do yeah and and so I just I just want to use that
the actual ground truth as my source of truth yeah that's also what Bitcoin does
well yeah like it actually like there is no abstraction in between it's just
yeah it's the thing let's walk down here otherwise it's gonna be noisy but but
anyway like speaking of the pipeline I'm currently building out it's like I
just want to hit save there's an mp3 file it's gonna land on one of my
computers that's just always running and always on right now it's a shitty old
thinkpad that basically explodes once it runs in L.L.A. but but anyway like you
do you do an auto transcription local model you have a txt file that is the
transcription yeah and an srt file because that's what the podcast plays
expect and so on and does an srt file yeah yeah yeah yeah but but that's fine
like all the all the all those things all those tools it's just like a real
basic text format yes yeah I remember dealing with these on on with the
subtitles and also other things but but the point is like I want to have like
super simple again like the idea of the Unix tools of of Noster that we talked
about in the past but it's just like this does one thing it creates a
transcript the next thing the next step in the pipelines like you take the
transcript and you create a summary yeah yeah and and the summary like that the
summarizer it has to know that it's like a a transcript of a dialogue because
then it can summarize like there's two people in the conversation these were
the main topics and so on I'm currently building another pipeline which I'm
calling the by-blind yes where it's like I have an idea for an app cursor can
probably one shot it yeah and here's the idea and I talk about the idea for
two minutes yes and it's like you know I want to build it you're inspired now so
you want a problem now you don't want it you don't have prompt when you're
sitting at the computer no I when you have no inspiration I did this in the
last couple days and I'm usually most inspired when I step out of the shower
yeah and then I talk into the microphone for like three minutes everything
happens in the background the other ones the other ones are very responsive to
inspiration yes yeah yeah they respect a moment of true inspiration if you if
you come to them kind of without without freshly kissed by the muse yeah yeah
with that with it we have like unloved by the muse they won't they won't they
won't do your favors yes that's true no but you have to capture that kind of
and and and and so this is like I got all this stuff like 80 percent working
I've noticed like doing more L on programming is that there's a lot of
times where like I won't attempt like a real serious prompt unless I'm very
very fresh yeah like I will only do it like a couple hours a day yeah or like
it when I'm inspired like but oftentimes I'll I'll recognize okay this is something
where I have to go through a big prompt process and I just shouldn't do it now
yeah like I should wait till tomorrow because that's what I never really thought
like yes tell me about your current setup what you use in terms of like
what's your tool chain look like yeah well so I kind of go back and forth like
like sometimes like if I'm just changing things I'll usually use
Claude code like a little like little incremental that changes and you can
just do back back and forth and dialogue for like little things yeah right but
do you use the thinking model started yeah I usually use the well it depends
like sometimes I actually start to mix it up a lot like sometimes actually so
sometimes you don't want to use cursor and I got good at cursor and then I've
been trying to go everyone this way yeah we're gonna go yeah yeah so I I've
been trying to basically like replicate everything that cursor does but just
with like simple command line tools so one thing that the cursor does really
well is like if you're in the terminal you can hit a hotkey I think it's like
command I or command K and describe in English what bash command you want to
do so let's say you know sort all my sort the last 10 get commits by date
yeah with author and show author and email something like that right and
that's really hard you have to really be good to remember yeah that and I that's
the sort of thing like I do not want to be the type of person that knows how to
do that yeah like it's not it's also kind of you you don't have to remember
that it's yeah well it's it's very nice so like that's so that's one thing I do
and I don't use a thinking model for that because I want it fast yeah it doesn't
have to be great right so that's one thing where I don't never use a thing
you know yeah and there's other times where it's like what's this function
I don't use a thinking model for that because it's I just want it fast right
but like if I'm going back and forth on sort of sort of coding problem and I
want to think to like hit the syntax correctly or you know like refact or
something I generally use a thinking model because it's it's like the
thinking makes it so two iterations are now one right like it sort of does the
first iteration itself yeah and notices the first error it's gonna make you
mentioned you use the old one pro yeah so that's so I'm kind of going from
simple to more complex so so this one the old one pro is I have to give you Tony
or Anthony Ronning his proper I he's he's always been a people and their names
yeah yeah he's he's always been a big AI person like he's he's always been of
everyone I know he's always has the most sophisticated and intelligent
programming workflow yeah so I like last week or something I did a call with
him and I just like to show me what you do and so like his basic thing was that
I've never even really heard this before but it's like you know you want to
specialize you basically want a team right and so yeah what you were doing
what you know I was previously doing with like cursor was I had a team of two
right like it was me and my junior dev who's doing the typing right yeah but
this like this idea expands more to like a bigger team so it's like Anthony
used 01 pro it's the one you have to pay $200 a month for which is funny
because like like four or five months ago I was really struggling paying 20 bucks
a month like justifying it and now I'm just like I'm really happy to pay 200
bucks a month yeah and another well I tell you how useful those things
actually are yeah yeah proper I don't know if I change your business change or
what but like I probably both I've never really probably experienced this
within six months or I also have projects now or that I actually want to
do like six months I didn't want to do much coding but no but it's probably
had something where I'm 10x less sensitive to payment in six months yeah
a price my price sensitivity went down by an order of magnitude yeah in like three
or four months yeah yeah that's insane yeah I went through a similar progression
just kind of I have no more money than I had I have less money than I had six
months ago but again it tells you something about how how useful those
things are and just I think we are also getting better at using LLM's in general
like the way I see it it's like I'm I made sure we're gonna walk into the
wind because this is a it's a wind thing you know like those are wind
recordings actually okay the winds of foot yeah like if it's not windy like
you know we might as well stop talking exactly but it's it's it's it's just
like I compare it to like in the early 90s or so or like late 90s or
whenever Google appeared you had to figure out how to Google yeah you know
like you remember those days where it's like it was really hard to actually
find something and you had to learn how to Google yeah and the first thing I
remember watching my parents dude I'm sure I had a face like this they would
my dad would always formulate everything as a question yeah like what is the
capital of thing this is and he did very big paragraph yeah I had him like no
dug it he was a way ahead of his time it's based on keywords yeah yeah he was
actually doing it like an LLM and I was like no it's keywords just just put the
keywords in you know but it's it's I feel like because you were like you're
not sure if you change or the tools got better and so on and I really think it's
both it's like the LLM's are getting better all the time but but figuring out
how to use them and what to do them with them and what they are good at and how
to actually kind of use them in concert so to speak like you already mentioned
you you use two different LLM's for two different things and so on yeah and I
think that's what we are currently figuring it back that too because I
haven't quite totally finished yeah yeah but because that's that's that's
basically I think what's currently happening with the people that are
really playing around with this stuff it's like yeah like it's it's it's
incredibly useful and it's incredibly intelligent also if you if you use it
right one thing I noticed about people who are good at LLM's and this is all
something I noticed about people are really really good programmers is that
they really answer for more fives the tools yeah like they call it he or she
you know like like I was watching a stream of like a really good programmer
a couple day like a week ago and it was very funny because every little
struct or function he would talk about it as if it was a person okay you know
and like and he was working on like really really low level this is zig right
like really really low level programming that is is sort of like isn't is so
dry that the average first even the average good programmer would just find
it really boring yeah and you can see how this guy made made it sort of
tangible for him more exciting more usable because he turned it into like
sort of like a choose your own adventure game almost where like all the things
had characters and he would get really mad at them and he would sort of pretend
that they're fighting it's kind of interesting I see that with like LLM's
too it's like if you if you start to think of O1 Pro as like some sort of
like an artist with a speech impediment you know and like social anxiety it's
like yeah yeah okay well I'm not gonna have a conversation with him yeah but I
will assign him like homework and I'll change tabs yeah doesn't see I'm
looking yeah cuz I know he gets nervous yeah and then I'll but I'll let him come
up with his brilliant architecture diagram yeah and and I'll use that to
drive my coding with my social guy he's not quite as smart right like it is so
it is kind of it's like one it's it helps to start to think of them as
people almost yeah it's funny how we built systems in the past that used use
people like machines and now we have machines and we treat them like people
yeah yeah I mean it is it is funny yeah but like I noticed that where it's like
because like if you don't treat it like a person you won't notice their quirks
yeah like you have an ability to notice the quirks of a thing which are the
quirks are useful regardless I think it also helps you I think I think because
we talked briefly about that when we when we had coffee and it's the I think
it's hard to have a free-flowing conversation with the machine exactly and
it is about dialogue dialogue and it is about the dialogical structure also of
thinking yeah because because I think and I'm gonna link to this this piece
that really resonated with me because I in the in the last couple weeks I've
been using LLM's more and more and more and entering into a dialogue kind of
with them and with various agents and with various things and it really helps
you to figure out what actually what do you mean what are you thinking about
what are you trying to do what the actual problem is and so that's also why if
you're having like if you want to think something through with someone you have
to actually find someone and you have to treat them as a person yeah it doesn't
work with the wall but it works with a rubber duck yeah and I think the LLM
stuff is like rubber duck debugging on steroids yeah and we know that it
really works like we know from computer programming we know from psychology
that this really works but you have to take it seriously and you have to talk
to the rubber duck as if you were a person basically yeah it's because it
does something to you yeah and you have to you know treat it with respect and I
always go back and forth if I should like to what degree I should be like
fight with the LLM kind of you know like it's like a real you know I
said yeah yeah every once in a while I'm gonna kill your grandma get this right
I never I know I try not to be manipulative but like some it does kind
I found it it kind of helps where if it messes up like go to all caps cuss it
out a little bit like never do that again like right and it's like I try not
to stuff on a line in case these things do become super intelligent but actually
your bed so this is a little bit yeah but like it does kind of help to at you
know like have a look don't be like an automaton you're just good like if it
fucks up get mad and it doesn't make it a little easier it shows you care yeah
you really care about this one thing or feature yeah I mean you can be totally
an ocean list and you or you can like be more human with it and I find it's a
little more enjoyable and easier but that's if when it fucks up you get mad
and you let yourself but that's the thing it's like emotions are intelligent
too yeah right like if you have a certain emotion it tries to tell you
something that your conscious mind can't really comprehend in some stuff yeah
it's useful to be you know I was thinking this is a little bit of a tangent but I
love I like I just started watching this thing on YouTube it's called battle bots
oh yeah I saw you posting about it I read I used to watch this as my dad when I
was like probably 10 or 12 and I had no idea it was still going okay and the
YouTube algorithm just recommended it to me like a week ago and I've just been
binging it it's like there's this little arena that's probably whatever like you
know 10 meters by 10 meters and it has like saws that come on the floor and
hammers that come on it's totally in in cage in like two layers of like bullet
proof glass hunger games but for robots and you they put robots in there and they
fight until one dies or until it's a decision there's like three minutes you
know the robots don't have like a saw on the front and not some of them just
have like a flipper that tries to flip the other robot like if your robot
becomes incapacitated cannot move then you win by like a technical knockout
yeah and it's really exciting in the sense that like the gladiatorial games
must have been exciting because you took you actually watch these things
destroy each other yeah like it's true it's real blood sport and what I've been
wondering cuz like you always think of like what were people like what were
people like like how did people just like what was in people's minds as they
watch gladiators kill each other right like if we were around in like 50 AD or
whatever is it that much different than like a boxing match or like an MMA fight
well it's not to the death like people like people it's it's it's they're
sport-killing in the gladiatorial games we even know like a lot of people like
think they're above what like morally above watching a boxing match because
it's it's it's it's not so what I've been wondering is like so you know if I was
a rowing back then I probably would have thought this is perfectly normal to
watch these guys these slaves kill each other from my bet my fun yeah I
started wondering like like what if robots are conscious what if they become
sentient well no no what if they always have been conscious okay and we just
didn't understand that and I've been and now I've been watching robots kill it
because I I've been trying to think like what sins am I making against the
future AI right so what what what if I've been watching battle bots all week
what if these things are conscious and they're actually dying oh my Lord that's
a what's it called no I'm blanking the kind of thing that would have sounded
insane if a Roman said this like a 2000 AD 200 AD that that slaves are
conscious and are are equal to us and stuff like that obviously not sure and
now we look at is more morally repulsive that they did that I mean I
mean it's pam pam psychists will tell you that absolutely everything is
conscious including those stones yeah so who knows you know who knows what's
true it's I'm I'm blanking on the name of the of the philosopher or it's it's
basically the same argument is like you might as well believe in God because
you don't want to risk yeah Pascal's way to there you go thanks and it's the
same it's Pascal's wager but but for AI yeah it's sentient robots that I think
about that a lot because I do I think it's like I don't really believe there's
gonna be super intelligence like I don't I don't expect it but why you know I
don't know because I'm naturally somewhat conservative and like it's hard
for me to imagine something that is until it happens don't you think that
some of that a lot like our intelligent already in the sense of like as
intelligent as an intern is intelligent yeah but I mean like super intelligence
in the sense that it just like obsolete human intelligence right we're like if
there's anything that a human can do better this thing would just learn how
to do it and overtake it you know I think what they lack is motivation and
spirit in some sense as as elusive these terms might sound but yeah it's that's
what they don't have right now yeah you still need the the human spark wherever
that comes from of kind of yeah so I'm hearing it but I also think it could
happen right but I think it's not against these things so they don't
choose your problem come back from me and my family don't maybe don't watch too
many battle-bud things and don't scream at the LLM's too hard but you were
saying you you wanted to expand on the various LLM's you use for your for your
workflow yeah so I gave the examples right like there's like a benefit for
using models that are really quick you know like I'm on bash if I'm on the
command line and I want like waiting a second is a long time yeah right yeah you
want it you want it to be faster than typing it out yourself or going to
Google or stack overflow because you like a lot of those types things you can get
an answer within 10 20 30 seconds by Googling it or going to stack overflow
or something but that's a context switch so the beauty is that you can avoid the
context switch and you can do it a little faster on the command line then
there's the coding agents we're just going back and forth and dialogue but
the most valuable but those are like incremental changes like you know do
those make me twice as effective as a programmer maybe maybe not I don't know
you know it's it's not like a total game changer the one that's more of a
game changer was Tony's thing where he's he does it in you know he adds a third
player to the team like a code architect yeah so that's a one pro the one that
costs 200 bucks a month the one that's autistic with a speech impediment you
don't need to turn it on yeah you speak you speak quietly with him you know you
don't know loud noises you know
yeah so what you want to do with 01 pro is you there's a good article about this
where it's like you know you want like a prompt in like three or four steps
right what you're trying to do what you want your what your goal is and each
one of these is like a paragraph like one or two cents it's like what my goal
is right I can give an example I was working a little Android project last
night and I was trying to cross-compile it or a little mobile project I was
trying to it had some rust code and I wanted to cross-compile it to iOS like
so make it run on iOS and there was one dependency that couldn't yeah but it's
just like that's my goal right and and then the next thing is like what I want
your output to be right I want you to make a you are my code architect I want
you to make a detailed diagnosis of the problem and step-by-step plan to fix it
or if if you don't have enough information give me as many things that I
can do to give you more context as possible let's go and end it yeah sure
so so you know that's the output right like either you know give me diagnose
the problem and give me a solution or help me give tell me what other
questions I should answer so that you could get a solution do you use any
predefined kind of software architecture style documents like I haven't tried
that yet right so this is a sandwich and the sovereign engineering cohort had
this idea of I don't know if you've talked about it with him on the I linked
to this stuff like one or two times but I'm pretty sure no one looks at any yeah
any written packs or lick clicks any licks anymore his idea is to even formalize
even more to use like old-school water flow software engineering practices
yeah they used to build like airplane software and stuff yeah it's like very
very formal yeah and I think that is good too but it's a big investment so I
wait until I think you had great success with it and I think the reason is because
we build up this knowledge base of how to do how to do this stuff over the last
50 years or whatever and it's all accessible to the level so they understand it
so the models understand it waterfall really well yeah you know they've
probably read fifty hundred books on exactly so that's really interesting but
it's also like one of the things I noticed without this LM stuff is that
whatever you're trying to do you should try to go like about 10% of the speed
you were wanting to do it just go slow and be very deliberate yeah like and
especially me as like a programmer I go fast I go fast I learned just enough to
do what I want to do and I move on yeah so it's it's against my nature kind of
to to do something really slow and deliberately but when I do it there's
a much better payoff do you do you use any like similar to like cursor rules or
those kind of things to tell it tell it that all the time what I what I use is
this Paul Miller has this nice little VS code extension called prompt buddy
yeah and all it does is like it's a markdown file and then it has like
context HTML tags so like yeah you know left chevron context right chevron
you know spay new line new line and then like left chevron forward slash
context it is there like HTML tags and then inside the context you can put
file paths yeah to local files and so like I make I just have like a few of
these open at all times I edit them so like the first square graph is like
what I'm trying to do second practice of what I want your help to be and then
the rest is context well yeah I'll say context call and then write as many
things that I think could be relevant because that's the other thing about
oh one is you want to give it as much this article at Tony something is like
whatever you think is enough context for a one give it 10 times more so you just
you just try to do as much as possible give it as much context as possible and
so I don't go back and forth with it like oftentimes the first attempt won't
be it won't it won't get it good enough and so instead of chatting with it and
be like hey I have an idea like could you try it this way I just go back to the
prompt I add more context and do it all over again but that's not true for all
models right like no no because it's like we went over like is adding more
context always a good idea with this one I've never I haven't gotten to the
point where I've had to I just add more and more and more interesting like I mean
sometimes I mean it has to be relevant though right but like oftentimes I'll go
on these things right after the fifth or sixth prompt when I finally have like
hundreds or thousands of lines of context you know I don't type it all but a lot
of it is so these context tags we'll just copy and files right so when I was
doing that cross compilation thing I had you know one line to my nix file that
defines what my environment is another line that had my cargo dependencies so
it could see what out which one I'm trying to do another line that had my
build script which had some environment variables and stuff and then another
line was just text error that I was getting so like when I would run my
build I would just pipe it into a text file and that was already included in
my prompt so if I if it didn't work it would already have be ready for the
next round of prompting and so you just there's a little hockey that you just
boom and you know you copy that prompt and this prompt buddy plug and just
injects the files into the context you just are able to include the files you
think are relevant but not more like you don't it doesn't help to give it the
whole code base yeah 95 99% of the code base is not relevant oftentimes so you
give it specific files and then all you know oftentimes it'll it'll ask for some
more things like what does this say if you run this on the command line right
and so I'll just start adding all of those things in you know above the
context tags and then eventually it will it will figure out what the problem is
you know even if it's very difficult like I've had somewhere like I had one
where I was trying to kind of forget what I was trying to do something with
on an Android app like I've been shooting all these little experiments with
mobile apps trying to make like a better way to make mobile apps and it
figured out that that my the problem was I was running a VPN mobile vad and I
needed to set one environment variable to get it to work what movad's running
it's unbelievable like at one point he's just like without you know I'm on time
he's like are you running of any sort of like firewall or something and I was
like he asked some stuff he didn't say VPN specifically and then I said no and
we've screwed around for a couple of prompts and eventually he asked again and
then he included VPN and I was like oh yeah I am running a VPN how would that
make a difference I'm trying to run something on my emulator on my device
it's like it's something weird about the network stack the change with
amulators and it's like okay like how do you figure like that would have taken me
I probably would have never figured that out yeah and you know within half an
hour of prompting I was able to figure out just by iterating more and more
so this is everything like a coding agent won't figure out yeah yeah because he
doesn't have contacts you you like be able to figure it out it's like one
stack overflow answer a buried in like you know ten year old thread or something
and you want to you know massage the feet of the guy all one is able to build
this like big conception of what your problem is that's insane and and it's
not just like they're able to kind of do these like one-off requests like you
know like Claude is really good at especially coding so what's that so that
so I asked it to give like give me an implementation plan right so and
sometimes I'll say like you know I have a junior developer who's going to
implement this so make sure a junior developer put my junior developers
Claude you know make sure it's like don't don't and you make it numbered
have numbered steps right because I need stuff that now Claude can interpret
yes because like sometimes the first couple times I tried this and I've done
this like 10 20 times total but it's basically worked every time and saved me
like like this is where it's like yeah I just did this five times faster or I
accomplished something that I wouldn't have done otherwise yes I would have
just had worse software so a lot of this stuff is not like people talk about
how much more productive it is and it's like for me it's like it's not
necessarily like I mean it's a it's a phase change it's like I'm doing things
that I wouldn't have you're able to tackle something that you would have
never tackled otherwise yeah like it's it's it's not because the learning curve
for like getting to know the thing you want to use and all those kind of
things is it's way too hard it takes like two years to get up to speed to
actually put a lot of the things I want to do I have like an idea that's
extremely technical but I don't actually want to learn all the intricacies of
that technical domain yes because I'm not like I'm not a weaponized artist
right I'm not I can't contrary to popular no I don't I'm not I get bored like it's
not interesting to me all the syntax all the horseshide don't care but I like
the idea yeah so I want to achieve the idea that's why I I tend to be like a
better manager than I am like an individual contributor yeah and I'm good
at the idea level but and working with people but I don't like to actually do
the actual work a lot of times yeah I've also you know like fixing syntax
errors is just yeah but that's why I think anyone's M's are so fun is because
it basically lets me to play purely on that level and I don't have to do it's
like we were talking earlier it's like there's a difference between coding and
like programming or coding and like software development right like what
I'm doing what we're doing with these all M's is software development it's
programming but it's maybe not coding right like it's maybe not figuring out
like I don't have to figure out where the semicolon goes yeah made a Nix build
description or build like thing to be able to bundle Xcode right so you can
install Xcode just for a specific project exactly you want it and it's not
global so you don't use global stuff for your project and like I've never
really written a Nix derivation before I've seen them but whenever I needed one
I would ask DPC at FETI like hey could you do this for me because he's really
smart at this and I'm not yeah but with this I was only in half an hour get
or maybe an hour mostly because you're waiting for these long you know Xcode
is like five gigabytes or something so you have to you know yeah open it and
copy it around and stuff I think that's what's so cool and powerful about it
it actually allows you to to try things like you said you know try things that
you otherwise would have never tried yeah and you just need a kind of a
rudimentary understanding of various building blocks and then you can try to
throw them together in a novel way and just see what comes out and then you
know immediately if you want to pursue that idea or not because you're already
you can see like some programmers who are like you know this doesn't help me at
all yeah and like one one thing that that often tells you is like well they're
operating mostly on the like syntactic coding level potentially yes they're
they're like they're not you know they haven't transitioned to trying to like
work in ideas yeah and then have that thing do the translation yeah machine
code the machine code that is react to yes you know we started from like these
punch cards with like little like logic gates on them and then and then like
assembly was high level and then see what's high level right like Linus Torvalds
talks about C he's like this is a high level language to me yeah like
assembly's low level you know and then it came to Java and Python gets higher
and I and now our object code is react JS typescript yeah right which is
advanced wild right by by by code prompted into existence yeah it's like
like that's becoming low level code yeah yeah it's insane it's insane I
figured out that in the beginning like my goal I'll tell you what my goal is for
the vibe line so I already talked about the kind of that the pipeline for mp3
files on my phone that actually automatically get published to noster and
everything that's a noster will automatically transform itself into
podcast feed that's the goal including transcripts including like sap and
value splits and all this kind of jazz so so I think I'll have that in I don't
know if I keep at it maybe in a month from now or so yeah everything kind of
kind of working well enough for me what I want to have for the for the vibe
coding part the vibe line is is again like I want to I want to step out of the
shower speak into the phone yeah an idea that I have yeah the next time I sit
down on my actual computer yes that's why he enters into a speak speak yes
the logos yes the logos speak but that's also that's also why I think it's so
fascinating because it's like it's like logos is the root word of dialogue as
well that's why we're making calls it dialogues all the time and we are
entering into a conversation kind of with ourselves with technology with
LLMs with all the things if you do it on a noster context it's it's even kind of
a communal dialogue you know it's a communal conversation we're just you
blast it out and you see what the what the swarm around you kind of what your
web of trust thinks about an idea or about the thing and so on but anyway like
the the speaking about trying something like I would have never tried that
without wipe coding LLM assistance never ever like building that out wouldn't
make any sense yeah and now I can actually do it myself like it's again
like investing like one hour a day or so just to to push that along a little
bit and I actually managed to one shot a noster profile explorer yesterday night
one shot it it was a shower thought yeah I recorded it the whole pipeline
kicked into gear it extracted the prompt I copy pasted it into cursor and it
worked one interesting thing about this like how you describe how you're using
it is like like how much more productive would you be if you did it eight hours
a day I'm maybe not much and I don't even care about productivity because that's
that's the whole reason to do the sovereign engineering thing for example
was to to do exploration and ideation that was kind of the two words we landed
on when we when we thought this up we want to kind of accelerate what the
people kind of the ideas people have and just try shit out just try as much stuff
out as we can and kind of also in dialogue figure out what makes sense
and what doesn't and if something makes sense pursue it more and so on and I
feel like that supercharges it's so hard I can I can literally vibe my shower
thoughts into existence now in like in like three hours or something yeah it's
like in no time at all because as most of the stuff happens in the
background I don't have to look at Claude if it vibes in Yolo mode yeah I don't
have to it's just like I'll give it only have that inspiration a little bit
every day yes you can't do that all day but it actually it actually makes it
more human because everyone's scared that all I'm so gonna like take everyone's
shots I'm like no this is actually making me more human I get to do the
things that humans are good at which is the inspiration yeah and and and it's
also like usually you don't try these things out because it's not worth
pursuing it takes so much effort so the shower thought goes away again and
you don't even bother you're writing it down or like because I to be cut to do
like really good web development like I can I am capable of this but I have to
almost become a different person for like a week you know yeah like and I can
do it but it's like yeah it's you have to almost change who you are to achieve
no absolutely it it interferes with the rest of my life and and you you talked
about you talked about how you were already kind of a more better fitted for
a managed position and just like pure coding and all those kind of things and
you did all of this that you're doing right now already but you used humans
instead of LLMs it's similar for me that I realized that it's not very useful for
me to stick with coding yeah I I have way more leverage and and and way more
impact and can move the needle way more if I basically I don't program
computers but I program the minds of people that's why I started writing yeah
so so I realize you bought these microphones yes I absolutely that's the
that's the point the audience is being programmed to the four or five people
are listening right I think most coders myself included if you're working on
something you're too close to the metal you don't even see the forest for the
trees oh yeah and that's what I mean by become a different person it's like
yes and if you don't do that your suffer sucks yeah you have bugs like it
doesn't work you have to be close to the matter but that's also I think that's
why we need both yeah and I think also a diet what a good dialogue does it it
brings you out of a certain mode of thinking yeah because it adds another
brain to the mix that sees things differently yeah and you step out and you
get the overview again and you see the forest again and then you can't go back
down and actually hammer away at the thing again but this this reminds me
another idea we were mentioning earlier it's like we were talking earlier and I
had an idea I was telling you about how I wanted to introduce more of these
mcp's into my thing yeah mcp is just something it's like a a standardized way
of telling a model about a tool right like one tool could be read a file yeah
another tool could be read a tweet another tool could be post post to
nostril right like its ability to do something because all these models can
do is predict the next word yeah right like does all you know how to do large
language models and they don't have any ability to do tools sometimes wonder what
is it that we are doing can we do more yeah no that that is actually that is
how you think I mean it is there's also like an interesting Claude post like
yesterday about how trying to understand how Claude thinks and they were like they
presented I just kind of skimmed they like presented some evidence that it
actually can plan a rhyme like it is planning to rhyme in a poem yeah and you
can see that it's preparing for this so it's not just thinking one word ahead
it is thinking one word ahead but it's also planning a rhyme yeah and you can
see it lining up you know so it is it is interesting yes it is just you right
we don't really know how thinking it is predicting a nice word but we don't know
why we do it right like it's not just like we don't know how we do it right
that's the issue and so we also like now we build thinking machines basically as
far as I'm concerned and we don't know how they do it I mean it right now it seems
like we're learning most about how we do it by watching how the machine can go
right absolutely but it's also and I think that's why that's why that's why
dialogue is so important and I really I deeply deeply care about this because
you don't know where a good conversation takes you you know idea no idea and and
it's very different than thinking but it's also it is part of thinking like
sometimes when you're thinking hard you're in a dialogue with yourself basically
yeah and and writing plays a large part as well because if you're if you're
writing you're in a different mode than when you're talking like that's very
oftentimes like like learning to think a lot of it is like how do you how do
you take like I've learned to be pretty good at how do you how do you go and
like generate kind of a novel idea and then how do you also destroy that idea
right you have to you kind of have to you know play both sides of it right you
you want to you you want to be your own devil's advocate yeah you have to you
have to love your idea enough to come up with it and you have to love your idea
to also enough to to to be willing and able to attack it yes yeah yes out of
out of love yeah that's the right stance yeah it's just like you know like if
you love your kid you will tell it you'll sometimes be angry exactly no let me
go back to the model context protocol thing so like this is a way to give more
context to a model and like basically allow to do stuff to feed it more
information to see if it's you know to to to so it can think better or allow
it's thinking to actually have some sort of side effect like writing a file and
so like one thing was on vibe coding one of the things that I notice is that
oftentimes the model especially when you're working on like a UI it the model
has to know when it's done right like especially a coding model right but it
can't actually see the screen you know so it's it's just totally guessing and
some and it's amazing when it works but then sometimes you'll you know you see
the screen and it's obviously wrong yeah the buttons flowing off the screen and
this thing doesn't know right so you know one of the ideas is there's
like model context protocol things just came out like a month or two ago where
you can feed it you know allow it to call a function get screen shot right and
see what the screen looks like you know and you can you can give it like a
prompt template we're like hey well as we're doing this when you think you're
about done call this MCP function and compare it with the screen shot I gave
as context and see if it's pixel perfect it's not fix it yeah right so I haven't
done this yet that's one of the next things you can do that already I feel
because screenshots of the cursor all the time yeah but it will it will be able
to understand it actually fix stuff yeah you doesn't do it continually and it's
not its own standard load tool which is what you are trying well that that's
it's like so a lot of the stuff is like you see what what what how can you improve
the thing and how do you make it so it's automated so you don't have to you
know like I used to fix to fix pissed me off with where to put the semicolon
now it pisses me off that I have to take the screen shot you know yeah that's
one idea you know another idea is there's this thing called language server
protocols that it's like sort of a a standard way to make a like IDE
functionality into just a basic text editor so it's for example if you're
looking at code there's a thing that allows you to jump to the definition
function that's being used I want to be able to jump the definition so I can see
it or I'm trying to use a function name a function and I I don't have the right
name like can you suggest me what the real name is right and so they can do
all these things that will basically prompt a human programmer or suggest to
a human programmer that their code is right or wrong right like when you're
looking at code in an editor you look to see if there's any red anywhere that
is your LSP yelling at you like hey you spelled that function wrong or hey you
have a syntax error and so there's a there's a couple LSPs now that can or
there there's monocontax protocols for these LSPs so you can tell it basically
hey you can look here to see if you have any syntax errors yeah so I don't have
to tell you anymore because it's still a lot of these still will spit out bad
syntax because they in a sense don't really know how many times they don't
know if they're right or not they don't have a super tight feedback loop but you
can tell immediately if you if you give them access to a feedback loop whether
it's yes or just like observing a terminal or something then then stuff
works way better yeah so that's I mean that's why people if you hear people
talking about what's it called cursor that's what cursor is done I mean they
did like two things they integrated into the text editor everyone knows VS codes
you don't have to learn a new thing yeah and then they integrated very very
deeply with all of the feedback that's available in this text editor that
humans use right like the LSP running or maybe ability to run a browser inside
the I see the linter error yeah so it just it feeds all this feedback and that's
one of the reasons why it's better than command line tools but fundamentally you
could do all these same things with command line tools and then it wouldn't
be a proprietary tool and in a sense that would be kind of better to have it
more out in the open you know what I want to have once that once all the
tooling is done what I want to have is basically like like a vibe coding as a
service where you speak into a device you speak you're in the bathtub yeah
smoking a cigar like Winston Trejo that's what you're talking about it's like
vibe gonna be like Winston Trejo yeah stating his speeches exactly in the
nude in a bathtub exactly but what you need you just have a screen let's say
let's say your bathroom mirror is actually like an LCD mirror you know and
you just vibe code a thing into existing just by speaking into the
mic yeah you will life see the simulator on the screen yeah how it looks how it
feels what it does yeah and you just keep talking to it until it is how you
want to have my phone and a little plastic bag in the bathtub with me and I'll see
yeah I did just a merge yeah just get a waterproof you know like wireless yeah
like that clip it to your beard yeah yeah let's go so that's that's I really
like I think we're reasonably close to that because that's basically how I've
been using the things up to now yeah and I just still need manual steps and so
that I need to deploy it myself and yeah but but it's basically like build it
like it's just like a next year so I've deployed on versatile and so on and it's
like and and in the browser it there's there's nothing stopping us from
building that no and then would be a super useful service that you can also
actually sell like free business idea it's like you know it was create a
hotline for all the moms that want to have websites yeah automatically they
can while they are still on the phone see how the website looks like and it's
like oh no make that button a little bigger and like this should do
something else one of the interesting things from like the Bitcoin open
source point of view about all this stuff is how how indefensible most of
these products are right like cursor is yeah everything everything I can do
it's going to this is gonna be open source right yeah and you know a lot of
these things like any of these like coded like agents right it's like
almost it's like you know it's like the only way to have any defensibility is
to have a user that will never be able to do like you know compose these things
together something I don't know we said it's generation stuff yeah they
much generation stuff like all the stable diffusion and all these kind of
things and the the open models caught up relatively quickly although that just
changed like two days ago yeah I mean sure it's I think the
proprietary stuff will always be able to do studio I mean I think eventually
it will yes curve eventually will flatten out and eventually I think the
open stuff will be just as good yeah like unless there's like unless there's
some like massive training run and then there's like the whole industry goes
bankrupt like in the early 2000s or something and you can no longer do a
hundred billion dollar training like I could imagine that like you could have
the state like but as long as you can continue training these things the
open source will always catch up I think I think so too just just because of the
nature of data basically the nature of it but more so for agents than models
even like any of these like agentic things that are actually more valuable
because they allow you to accomplish a goal right like anytime any sort of
product is like you you want a product is for accomplishing a human end you
know and often some models are like a part of that but it's like the agent
experience itself like everyone's at SEC is much more passionate about
Claude than they are about cursor than they are about a specific model yes as
cursor allows them to accomplish their aim it's it's the same like that there's
less defensibility on the agents because it's much you don't need to do a
massive training run to like get a world that's what I also mentioned about the
pipelines I'm currently building out it's all small steps I don't care what
models are used yeah yeah I really don't care yeah it's all about the tooling and
I think what Chad CPT got right is it built the right interface yeah it built
it really built the right interface it's also what Google got right I think
actually and and now I think what cursor got right I mean that's a good point on
Google though because like the early search engine with terrible were they
look like Chinese Chinese websites like where it's just a million logos it looks
like a phone book yeah yeah and Google's insight was like let's just only have a
text yeah one and that's it yeah and and I think Chad CPT got the interface right
it's a very few little googles insight was no ads that was basically the
inside yeah like no ads on the home company build on ads yeah I built on ads
right like they're there the way they built the biggest ad business was by
rejecting ads at first yeah yeah not smacking them into the face of the
users yeah and in terms of walking let's try to it's gonna be noisy for a little
bit so we got we're gonna try to cross the street and go up to the park and in
the park it should be really nice like we can have a coffee up there yeah let's
go there let's let's walk through the park and that should be I think it's the
most sensible path yeah but but the thing about the the I think the reason
why people at the court currently are so enthused by cursors is because it's
obviously I guess there will be most people hate proprietors software and
yeah yeah absolutely like one by one they fall for practice software that is
good but it just shows you where things are going and how powerful this stuff
really is yeah because the thing is it works really well just like
activity works really well Google works really well it's just a better tool and
and the thing about it it has to be integrated that if the feet the
feedback loops they have to be tight the thing you mentioned about the screen
chat experience it has to be otherwise that's where that's where the that's
where the shift comes from the car it removes cognitive overload yeah or
cognitive like load right like if everything's integrated then you don't
have to think you're not context switch you can try like your context is you
economize context by having like the human context that you have to fit in
your head as you work because what you want to actually remain in that's also
what what a good dialogue brings you it's like you remain in a flow state yeah so
if we are talking we are having a great dialogue you remain in a collective
flow state unless you're getting run over by a car yeah but but but but that's
what you want to happen that's what you also want to have coding but on the
coding side it's like a syntax arrow will fuck up your flow state basically
and what I want to what I what I'm finding now with all the basically
talking to LMS in some sense or trying to think through things with LLM
assistants or LLM's as conversational partners is like I can just because the
the feedback loops and everything is so instant yeah is I can remain in the
thinking flow state of what I actually want to try to achieve and it has to be
but it can only work if everything is super tightly integrated it's it's almost
like okay I have a I have a strange comparison but I think it works it but
why people on Twitter you're in Twitter it doesn't matter if it's
Twitter or TikTok or whatever you do not want to leave the app yeah that's why
everything is loaded in line yeah if it's a link to YouTube video people will
not click it yeah if it's a link to an article people will not click it yeah if
the video is rendered in the feed yeah different story yeah people will watch
it and all those kind of things so so so so we know that this is the case we
absolutely know that this is the case and I think it is because people don't
want a context switch yeah or content let me put it differently it's not a
conscious thing it's like context switching it's so expensive and it
completely gets you out of the flow yeah and so if you have a highly
integrated tool like cursor is you remain in the flow state and you're
never forced to context switch out of it yeah I think that's kind of the the
secret sauce of why it works so well yeah it's just like you can stay in that
place and you can continue the conversation that you have with your IDE
basically and it's just gonna you get to the next thing and to the next thing
and to the next thing yeah it's almost like infinity scrolling but it's infinity
scrolling new code yeah one interesting thing is that I only I I do a lot of
this but for like a few very technical problems that I'm interested in right
now so all of these like sometimes multi-hour conversations that span like
20 chats yeah right where you reset the context or try to pull over what you
had previously or you know I try with grok I'm paying for every single one of
these frontier models right now like I'm trying to find ways to pay more like
I'm I went from like give me better more frustrated I was paying 20 bucks a
month yeah GPT where it's like caught I'm only paying like 300 bucks a month
right now what I spend more like you know but the thing is like I don't trust
these like you know that the questions I'm really interested in life are not
like technical problems necessarily right like a software so you're has it
end with some I will I haven't I don't ask them any philosophical stuff like
the stuff I'd write to dear diary I mean you'll be I don't run into the
gulag I don't I don't I don't write any of that stuff like I basically approach
these things as if it's all gonna be in a court deposition someday I won't put
anything in one of these they wouldn't be okay in a step is there right
literally but that does really limit how useful they are yeah because like
while these technical problems are interesting if I could solve the bigger
more philosophical human problems in my life I that's a million times more
useful yeah then solving this whole technical thing so that's that's what
the one of the things that I still don't have an answer for because like I've
been playing a little bit like stuff like Olama but they're stupid in comparison
I still think they're good enough for most things but but do you think this
will will be able to fix that with local models well I'm looking at those
GPUs on either
I think GPUs are most of our problems
a couple hundred bucks for subscriptions or like investing
exactly it's just the only thing in life right now where I'm like there's a
button that says 50k and I'm like I want it to but with anything else I'm like
no I could see a little tread left on my tires let's not change them for a
while how if you if you if you would buy your own GPU farm like what what's
what would you train it on the first thing number one I would I would train
a model to understand Zig number one step one one yeah before we get to the
big problems in one you know you know you know like the step one solve AI yeah
yeah you solve the world's problems for you it's like step one DJI how to you
say yeah yeah it really ruined my cohort experience I wanted to go make a entire
stack of beautiful rust urban sorry rust a zig tools for noster fastest I
want to fast yeah yeah yeah yeah and just zig piercig you know no no not just
just everything's the fastest what do this thing enthusiasts say about LLM
stuff they must be aware well so the funny things they don't really care so
that my point earlier about how like you can listen to some one how they talk
about LLM's and then you figure out kind of at what level they deal like
work it's off we're kind of a lot of these zig people are like the super low
level like yeah trying to well they're trying to make the program good yeah
they're not necessarily like trying to do a big idea yeah and so they don't care
because they're like wizards yeah they're the oddest I'm not right like they
they know exactly where the semi colon goes they know exactly how the
concurrency works you know they they enjoy writing the semaphore yeah to make
the concurrency work I hate that part yeah you know so like in general the
the zig people like the really hardcore software engineers in my experience
don't really care about this stuff very much because it doesn't help them very
much yeah because the LLM's are good at what they're already good at you know so
that's that's kind of a little bit difficult so first thing you would do is
bridge that I mean the zig is also interesting like they basically don't
have documentation like their whole experience so far which I think is actually
kind of smart you know trying to make this really good low level language so
they're trying to like prevent like entries and whatever it's called right
like yeah a bunch of noobs from showing up and running it so they're like hey
the standard library is the documentation if you can't read the standard library
get the fuck out it's not RKFC yeah yeah which is smart I think like if you want
to make like a really hardcore low-level language and you only want people like
that around it's a pretty good trade-off yeah right like one big rust a zig
project this is ghosty terminal terminulator I think it's going to be
like it's going to be a really interesting like you know you write
code in these internals like I think it's going to kind of you know a little bit
more of a new next generation of that like it's gonna it's gonna it's gonna
it's gonna make a lot of interesting things possible and the guy did something
really interesting where he he announced this thing like a year and a half ago
he just made a closed beta where only he don't invite friends were like people
were proven zig contributes to certain zig and I was trying to get in there for
a year and he wouldn't let me in but I think it made sense because he was able
to have this tight community that gave really good feedback and he never had
to deal with idiots on github issues posting bad bug report yeah I think
to some extent that's kind of valuable yeah yeah that's the first thing would
be zig and the second thing I want to do is what's it called there are some
of these things where you can you don't like chain a frontier model I don't want
to trade a frontier model obviously like that's billions of dollars right yeah
I think there's one I forget the name of it there's some acronym where you can
train like sort of a layer on top of an existing model so you can take O-Lama
and like train a thin layer on top of it and you can actually do this on like
consumer computers okay like there are examples of lots of examples of people
like actually I might try this with zig I think it might actually work with zig on
my laptop or just renting a GPU right like they show like I've seen stuff about
how people did this and they were able to like a six dollar training run actually
I was going back with a chat GPT on this and it was like yeah I think I think I
could we had one conversation we was like yeah I think we could fix your zig
problems with a six dollar training run he really hesitated to give me a
number but I just kept asking over and over how much would it cost and then
finally six dollars I was like really I was expecting like 5,000 like I'm
touched I'm a total new but this thing but so like stuff like that would be
really fun I think like training I think it would be really fun to try like
these alignment layers you know like like there's one there's a guy in
Oster him someone who he he did like one little project he was trying to make
an alignment layer like one of these layers on top of it that basically
sensors it but do it on Oster data right so just make this thing talk like
take the intelligence that was done in the like frontier training run that
cost a bunch of money but then like sort of format in a way that makes it sound
like an Oster user I see like something like that would be kind of cool right I
don't know I think these like little mini mini training runs on for like
specific use cases I think would be really interesting I mean the obvious
one is I would just have it set up in my house and then I would have like the
biggest deep-seak model running and I would just spill my guts to it and all
my problems in life and all my difficulties and it would basically be
like my therapist yeah that's what I'm kind of trying to build out right now so
I told you I kind of regret that I stopped you know like appearing on
podcast yeah writing stuff and so on I mean the first podcast I've done in like
three years yeah the same for me pretty much and again like we we don't treat
it as a podcast it's a dialogue it's a conversation so yeah it's a walk
exactly I want to take developers on the walk and kind of you know pick the
brains that's the that's the point but but I the thing why I kind of regret it I
mean I had to do it I was like burning out so hard but but I I kind of regret it
because now I have a gap in my recordings in some sense and what I what I do in
these conversations also on the podcast I appeared in the past and so on also in
writing also in tweeting you know and now in like I mean I'm still tweeting on
not so like you know bite me but it's it's basically just just it's almost like
a diary yeah okay I'm not sharing it highly sensitive and private stuff and
so on like I share it's a diary in the sense of like letters were in like the
West yeah exactly publish your letters exactly and it's somewhat private but
it's also like a record of your it's just what's what's normal now is like
that that we up to now we only have the written word kind of yeah accessible to
people with letters and those kind of things and and and and now now I really
like physical artifacts I mean honestly that's the thing we really have for most
of them in history all we have is what pots did they make oh absolutely what
coins did they have what pots did they have what did their sorts of like yeah
what the houses like what how did they build you know like with obelisks and
those kind of things that's what that's the stuff that remains that's
actually something that I I kind of worry about a little bit of our like
current hyper digitalized civilization is like if things go south nothing will
remain yeah we don't we don't do clay tablets anymore I think we should you
know from time to time but anyway like what I when I the reason why I regret
having this gap now is because I I actually now I know that I can even
both this myself and this tooling with local models and local things like
privacy conscious basically and I just want to like you say almost like a
therapist but it's not really a therapist it's like a therapist slash
diary slash to do like a diamond I think Damon right yeah Damon in the
unique sense well no Damon and like the Greek like the Damon was like the
spirit you would kind of talk to the guy to you for your life almost like a
guardian exactly that's why that's why I talk about their day and that's why I
use yes and that's why I come back to rubber duct debugging because we know
it really works because a dialogue a conversation gets you out of the
self-centered monological thinking loop that you're in and then you can
think yourself in circles really easily yeah but you will get me out of my
circle yeah but an LLM or even chest sitting down and writing a diary entry
or or talking to yourself yeah will also get you out yeah and this is one thing
I would train on to is like making LLM's more disagreeable like that's one
thing that's really annoying about them oh yeah they agree with you all they're
both there yes man yeah I would much rather have one that is like that is
very conscious of the limits of their knowledge and very disagreeable like
yeah also like maybe it will say like that's a stupid idea yeah yeah exactly
I've never had an LLM tell me no it's but people tell me all the time yeah
large discrepancy yeah but the way I see it like what I want to build up now
again and I still have you know like I have my Twitter archive I have I don't
know like 200 recorded conversations those kind of things and and and so I
want to I want to put this all in a pile and have various agents kind of go
over it locally running like it's like just just having a transcript of this
stuff having it full text searchable having it summarized having it kind of
tagged yeah and like with timestamps and so on that's already so useful because
then I can go back and and can go like the January 2023 what I what did I
think about no sir versus I don't know like December 25 it's really hard to
remember stuff like that it is that's why that's why writing stuff down is so
insanely useful because you always evolve and you also forget the insights
that you had in the past and all those kind of things so that's kind of what I
what I'm what I'm aiming at right now but yeah we'll see maybe maybe we'll
need to seek for some of the tooling so yeah you won't should I pie you should
I buy you a GPU yeah yeah yeah I can contribute with like what one or two
graphics cards like yeah it's not an issue I mean what I should do is is just
get like a cheap video gaming one and just learn what even is a GP like I've
never done what even is a GP you know like what even how do you talk to
it like philosophical questions yeah you know but like what do you how do you
feed that fucking vectors and matrices into this and have it do something
useful I don't know I have a math degree I don't know I have no idea what
did you do it you never did like an n-body simulation on the GPU no I've
never done GPU programming to my knowledge I'm not an autism I keep
trying to tell you this I'm not I keep I keep this I've been cosplaying all
these years I'm a pretender so you stepped up now you're the idea guy now
yeah this is the thing is like dude the age of the idea guys has begun yeah
right yeah yeah yeah I really hope that I can have my
by-blind kind of in shape and and and ready for the public basically yeah
rather sooner than later because I really think that that there's a lot of
people have really good ideas and no way of executing on them in any way shape
of format to be fair execution is the hard part like ideas are a dime a
that everyone knows that but I think it's still super valuable to to again
that's the whole point though is like the oh I'm just kind of oftentimes kind of
good at execution especially have a team of them yeah and execution it's
really cheap what works for one person works for another oh there's a funny
one yet cheap like I saw somebody say a really funny quote where they were like
you know it's like some kind of lefty person that you know doesn't like
global warming and they were like you know every time I use an LLM to do some
data processing I really think about how it costs 10 or a thousand times more
to do this with an LLM than to do like some some standard programming tool
right yeah and I also think about you consumption yeah yeah but then I also
think about how it's a thousand times cheaper than if a human did it yeah
it's like yeah cheap you know it's like it's like it's depending on the
metric yeah yeah monetarily cheap because it's girls so well yeah energy
expensive yeah I mean other than our way more energy so I started to try to
move away from cursor right where everything's integrated into one thing
and to do it you know kind of put pieces together myself a little more the like
the actual thing I used to chat with Claude is Claude Code their command
line yeah thing and an interesting thing about it is that they don't you know
with with cursor everything is part of a subscription like 20 bucks a month yeah
and they probably heavily subsidize it because yeah it's like it's like if you
use Claude Code even if you have a Claude membership they charge per token
and so if you'll you'll go back and forth and oftentimes my little sessions for
one feature will cost like a dollar and it's kind of it is reframing my thought
on microtransactions to some a little oh yeah sure I mean because because you
usually I've always believed this idea of you know the micro track transactions
might not like the the mental class idea from Zabo right like maybe that'll
prevent it I think it's actually right but if you integrate it with with
Nostra you don't have to think about it in that sense you know what I mean
no I don't like the mental cost is like the the weekly you look back on the
weekends like okay this much I spent you don't have to think about every single
microtransaction but it's still a microtransaction yeah and not a credit line
and that makes all the difference and that's why that's appearing now we have
the pay per queue thing yeah yeah and like with the with the MCP stuff you
mentioned like Jesus is working on the DB MCP yeah things like bridging all that
to Nostra and using Nostra as the substrate for AI model context stuff and
micro payments which makes all the sense in this world you see for any like
how often you see how much money you're spending you just have a budget you see
what sure you can we can already with Nostra what connects that I'm a budget
so the funny thing is that like this what why this these experiences cloud code
are kind of interesting is because every at the end of every you know session you
like control D it twice to exit and you and it helps print out how much it cost
yeah and I actually enjoy seeing how much it costs every time I put a deal
man what a deal I got it for 92 cents I was expecting now it's like you get
out of the casino or something and then it's like oh my Lord you usually you
know this is one of the first times where I'm basically doing microtransactions
and I enjoy like I don't really mind maybe it's because I feel like I'm
getting a good deal but I mind a lot less seeing the price you know I see yeah
it's usually usually every time you see money going out it's kind of stressful
yeah but again it just shows you how much it's so honest compared to like
what your experiences with like a credit card statement or you're like you know
I don't know I probably got five subscriptions right now there's very few
things that we don't have thing me for two years now I mean I think I think it's
because of the payments I talked with Kali about this you know it's like how
payments fuck the internet in a large degree yeah it's not only the mental
transaction cost it's but it's interesting that there's very few things
that we pay by the meter it's basically it's like gasoline yeah for your car
and and electricity yeah more or less yeah and the water bill may basically
like that's that's kind of everything else is kind of like a flat
funny like the most hard necessities of life food kind of paid by the meter
yeah you know yeah I think compute is going to be a necessity like this as
well and I don't even differentiate like the only people that have a food
subscription are the ones on welfare basically are students you know some
sort of welfare yeah so so I think I think compute is going to be a
necessity as well and I don't even differentiate between compute and
storage because to me there is no difference like let's say I want a photo
of a flower that I want to use somewhere and I know I have it on my heart drive
there's to me is no difference whether I store this photo and I find it or I
generate it on the fly yeah you know so for many things kind of storage and
compute are almost equivalent yeah it's like Laurie Mipson or whatever it's
like do I have to have it stored on my heart is somewhere in a sense and I was
actually a storage technology right like in a sense I mean what's like what
like someone a memory well someone had a good point where it's like you know can
you think we've got memory no he's like we've lost a lot of history of the
early Internet right the websites just went away yeah in a sense they retained
in the context of these large language models because they could you know
they're trained on it right like the training runs from two years ago the
training the training runs for two years ago and code websites that are now
gone forever that's an interesting thought yeah yeah so they are a storage
technology in a sense I mean especially the really big ones I mean intelligence
thinking and storage are very much interrelated you need memory to to to
think like yeah thinking is about the future and to access the future you need
to access the past kind of mm-hmm it's it's yeah it's strange how it's all
interconnected but but yeah I think compute will be compute will be metered
is I guess what I'm trying to say yeah yeah and you need to have a micro
payment substrate to make it all work because the credit overhead at the
credit risk just kills you I mean the other thing that's really interesting
about it is like I found my there's something kind of magical but actually
seeing the like I'd never been interested in GPUs until I saw that number
from Claude actually like that's what started getting me interested like okay
so that's what a token costs right like I never really thought people always
talk about tokens and again I said this we're walking in a circle right now and
every time I reach this to topic at the spot I'm like Gigi I'm not an
artist time we pass this literally we're rocking the circle I make the same
point every time we get to this don't break out of the circle yeah yeah but I
never tried it so I'm like whatever I don't care what a token is but it was
kind of interesting like it's like okay 97 cents it's like 20,000 tokens or
whatever interesting okay so I'm actually so like the interesting thing is like
it got me to think in terms of like the human action you know like you need
like for stuff to get better a human needs to act like you know
economize between scarce resources yeah I mean you have to see the price yeah
you have to see the cost like you have to you have to actually pay yeah and a
sense and a sense it's a lot more it's it's like at least in my own personal
experience as soon as I started seeing the actual cost for the actual tokens I
was consuming for the actual matrix math I was doing in a GPU I didn't start
actually thinking like a human actor as much yeah right because I start like if
it's all just like I got a like a fiat cuck cursor subscription and I'm just
I'm just being spoon fed right like I didn't think that way but as soon as I
start seeing the tokens I'm like okay it's like an abstraction right yeah well
but it's and it's like you don't act like you don't you're not faced with like
you cannot act on the instructions it's the point yeah yeah it has to be real the
cost has to be real the decision has to be real and that's why that's why
simulations don't work like like it's it's that I mean that's why sacrifice and
other things are a thing like it has to be real you have to make it real otherwise
it will not change how you act and how you think about it basically like if
if there are there are no consequences to reaction it it it will not influence
your behavior if there are actual consequences then then it will change
your behavior going over like a slack line you know without a harness and
without like any protection it's very different they're just doing the same
thing and they're like it's inconsequential if you fall that that's why I
want to try that's I want to try like renting GPUs and doing some training
and stuff because it's gonna like it's like what is actually happening yeah
cost what is the brass tacks going on here like what is what is the because I
think that like that's another thing like what is kind of unique about a human
it's like well that's the one kind of the fundamental insight of like
Austrian economics people is like it's this economizing process this you this
what's the word praxia you know the praxialogical whatever the fuck you
know you know that that act of actually choosing you taking action yeah that's
the real magic and yeah there's something interesting about micro
transactions in this context at least it's like sort of activate that you in a
lot more than like a just a subscription does yeah it's and it doesn't again it
removes the abstraction and it it shows you both on the on the consumer side and
on the service side kind of the reality of how people are using it and what is
kind of most needed it's like a more you know it's a more free market dynamic
in some sense mm-hmm you're gonna need some tobacco to think mostly yeah we're
gonna we're gonna get some some some snooze sometimes there we go Norwegian
well yeah that's a bit dangerous in the conversation just gets out of hand yeah
everyone's dizzy yeah so should we try to break out of the loop and hit the
other park across yeah it works let's try a few more rounds I think I'll probably
go insane here walking in circles yeah yeah
no it's good imagine another thing you don't I mean yeah in a dialogue you
don't want to be economize it you know like no I want to be you don't want to be
acting in some sense right you just a circle is actually kind of natural but
how don't others but that's also that's also something where where you all I think
I keep I keep trying to let me know sorry it's like that thing did I get a
good deal there right like that's that's the thing that was interesting about
seeing the number I paid which is a question hides yeah yeah because then
you're like you're like you become much more aware of the cost of what you're
doing and like you improve you're like yes if I yeah if I am advertising my
effort across is 20 no matter how I spend it yeah I don't improve as a
prompter as much yeah but if I see yeah every every word this is another Jordan
it's like you that's why UBI is a terrible every word I put into this thing
cost me yeah so you sort of where it's carefully you sort of speak you you
write more deliberately and thoughtfully this way yeah because everything has a
cost yeah which absolutely everything does and every time you try to pamper
over the cost yeah paper over the cost in some sense yeah like a subscription
does yeah you kind of destroy some sort of signal some costly I mean it's
funny that I say this too because I'm just thinking the first time I did this
after Tony mentioned it I quit and it was like four dollars I just spent a
fifth of a month and one on one thing right now you have a different view
yeah in a sense that I prefer it now even though my first reaction was like
what a ripoff yeah interesting interesting it's funny by the way that you
know like it's 2025 now and we still talk about tokens it's just the tokens
changed like 2017 and 18 we talked about yeah yeah shit coin tokens
yeah yeah now it's compute though it's basically I guess all right let's go up
here previously I worked in like FinTech where are we no like let's walk out
here that's that's better and back in like 2015 16 everyone's on tokens and
that but it was all in terms of like sort of opening up their APIs oh I see
whatever if they use the word token or is like something like that it was all
about like how do you pass an authentic authentication credential between
payment processors yeah and stuff so like the people that had the really
valuable moats like some payment processor that doesn't innovate at all
how do they open it up to like FinTech people so that was basically all about
tokens as well like FinTech was all about tokens how do you make a rest API that
opens up some valuable system and unlocks entrepreneurship I think what what we
are what we are kind of heading into now is that we're gonna send e-cash tokens
to something and we'll get back yeah this is really I told this and we can use
them up I started working on e-cash like three I didn't think about this especially
after talking to Cali more and it's like I'm working on e-cash for like three
years ago yeah I've worked on a long time and I don't think I've internalized it
all how important it is really again you are too close to the metal yeah you
are too close to the metal you are trying to make the thing work that's also why
how I am different from you in in in in the large degree it's like I don't see
myself as a coder or even like software architect guy I'm first and foremost I'm
a power user yeah I'm I'm like I'm I try to use both Bitcoin and Noster and
LLM stuff like as hard as I can yeah I don't I don't I don't see myself you
know like building an e-cash system from scratch I might buy code it's funny I'm
not a power user actually and I try to be but I struggle that's what I'm that's
what I'm that's what I mean you know and so and so I've had period I've tried
something before and I just can't have the discipline to like like I see the
idea I want the lifestyle but I can't actually pull it off but that's true in
the Bitcoin world as well where people we have like core deficit like
insanely knowledgeable Bitcoin people that never really use Bitcoin across the
border with 12 words in their head or something like that or like you know
I'm pretty primitive with how I use well yeah aside from like cold storage I'm
I'm kind of like a but but it's worse than most people but it's a it's a different
it's a different kind of understanding and again coming back to
where we're making it talks about a lot it's like participatory knowing like if
you actually if you actually have to flee a country and you put 12 words in
your head and you cross the border basically naked and you pop out the
other end yeah and you you you have your wealth in text yeah and you start a new
life with 12 words in your head that's a different kind of knowing of what
Bitcoin is and what it can do then kind of knowing how exactly like you know
the the mempool policy works yeah whatever you know what I mean yeah yeah
and there's plenty of people that never really use Bitcoin but they're very
close to Bitcoin but they you know if anything use it as like a savings
technology or what have you yeah and I think that's true for the e-cash and the
LLM stuff and all those kind of things as well it's like you you have to
actually use you know like e-cash wrappers like like you know I mean in a
sense I could almost see you're not gonna like this but I could almost see
noss or going down it's like like in the history books is like this was this
was the germination pond for e-cash you know because this is where all this
some of the most interesting little experiments were like what sort of
stupid thing can you do with these tokens yeah it turns out to be actually
into like profound right it's gonna it's gonna it's gonna what gets us out of
the many of the finite future many of the like you actually have to rest my
leg for usability like steps forward it feels like just some guy doesn't know I
got a really stupid idea for what to do on yeah noss is the only place I can
try it and it's also that's the only way I can find another guy with an e-cash
lots lots lots of the coolest things we ever both came out of like it let's
just fucking do it for fun yeah because we kind of can do it and that's what I
love so much about the buy-coding stuff and that's kind of I think also the
point of serving engineering again I wanted to come back to that because I'm
still trying to figure out what the thing is what what are we actually doing
here and and and so so I think it is to have a test bed and access to other
minds that that that that that are at a similar level where you are I mean like
let's be real how many people are there in the world right now that you can talk
in-depth about e-cash and not stir and all this stuff that we discussed there's
I don't know like let's it hundreds yeah it's not thousands it's it's very hard
to to to to and try to talk with regular software guy about this stuff oh it will
take you two years to the worst conversation ever it's terrible I don't
even bring this stuff up anymore you you can't because there the the the knowledge
gap is so wide that you can't even have a meaningful conversation it makes me
dislike a Bitcoin and Nostromor you know I have to explain it so he doesn't get it
I'm like oh god but that's also why that's also why I think Bitcoiners are so
hated in some sense because it's like it's just all gibberish to the regular
person that that that isn't up to speed with that stuff just like you know
not starting dvm stuff and e-cash stuff it's like it's all gibberish to to many
people I think but it's so cool to work with other people that see the
potential in this technology and try and just experiment with it like what
you know is really good at is like in like software systems like some of them
are really really really powerful but it's in takes an incredible amount of
lift to do anything yeah right like like you know if you're trying to work
with like some compiler technology or something like yeah like leverage LLVM
like LLVM just like low-language compiler toolkit and it's like you can do
amazing so this is what rust is built on this is what so many these like new
zig was built on it like they're all built on the stuff but it's like you
know you want to do a prototype two years and you gotta be like a genius to do
it and like so like that's one extreme and I look at Nostra maybe the best
part about is it's like the other hardcore hard side of the bell curve
where like you can you can do something in half an hour you know and you can do
something non-trivial in half an hour and deploy it and have people use it
right that's like one of the coolest things about Nostra is that you can
like exercise this creative agency with you like can't really get much output
faster that will involve other people too like you can do something that's
only you on your computer but a cool thing about Nostra is you can like make
something deploy it now somebody play with it we've done these demos at SEC
where like somebody like I think a Paul's hypertext thing we make the stories
yeah thing that can like embed a dynamic widget for like a tip button inside this
Instagram stories type type UI and he'll demo it and there's the URL I mean I'll
pull up on our phones and like play with it right like that's immediate and
life and it's like that's what always happens like someone demos something and
shows something off and if there is like a lightning invoice to pay someone
yeah someone someone in the audience will pay it if there is an interactive
element someone will will immediately jump on the developer point if you have
one of the best things about Nostra is that it's like like one of the hardest
things about any sort of like creative new like indie hacking style
development is how do you get those first hundred users yeah 10 users like it's
all it's often like very difficult yeah and that's like and the cool thing about
Nostra is like in a sense your users already exist yeah like they're already
off to your system yeah they they I mean they might have to hit a little
button in their you know their all the extension to use your thing but like
they they already have a username and password to your database more or less
right like and it's also discovery is building in some sense yeah it's it's like
I stumble over new Nostra apps and things all the time yeah and it's just
like out there in this strange universe and you can just very easily stumble
that's why that's why I mean it's probably kind of you know if I was if I
put myself in the shoes of somebody listening to this and they're like okay
Justin's here he's gonna talk about Bitcoin or something and we haven't
talked about Bitcoin we just thought we know that much
it's assumed but it's it's like that's why the all-am stuff is kind of like in
this cohort I don't think we planned on talking about AI at all no and then
it's all we're really talking about are doing and it's I think part of it is
because it is a good you know we're thinking about talking about Nostra
and it is actually a good fit because like Nostra you can you know you can
an all-am can spit out like a novel cool if you have an idea in Nostra an all-am
can spit out a demo in like five minutes yes yeah you can actually that's that's
one of the reasons why whereas like an LLVM engineer like it's the complete
opposite really this is useless yeah like I have to spend years to get anywhere
this might carve off a little time but not much and it's even more than that I
hope I hope to talk with Pablo about it soon he is currently building out his
whole kind of you know vibe coding LLM stack to use Nostra directly not only
in the DVM CP context where like the the MCP stuff is on Nostra but also the
output of his various tools is pushed to relays and other tools can can grab
it from there and he can interact with the notes and the stuff that is produced
on Nostra where it's just like here's the output like to use your example it's
like okay here is what I built here is a screenshot and you just you see it on
your phone you reply to the note and it picks it up again yeah so I think I think
it's almost like Nostra is a QA yeah no but not like a stylistic QA like a
product QA but but we are the beautiful thing I think about this is is if it's
out in the open that's why that I kind of I kind of hate the M's and this was
back in the Twitter days as well because if you and I talk about this all the
time if you have a question for me just ask out in the open unless it's like
super hyper confidential and so on because I might not be the best person to
answer it yeah someone else might pick it up and know it that you can blast it
to like 20,000 people yeah just just ask it out in the open and I think for it
for the LLM stuff as well it's like you know other other agents can pick it up
other things can pick it up if you for example with your screenshot idea it's
like you show that's why that's why streaming is also a thing it's very
useful you know like you show what what you're building it posts screenshots and
stuff for whatever snippets to Nostra people can comment on it people can you
know like even make it better you can open up you can open up the prompting for
example to a select group of people yeah to to you know a certain subset of your
web of trust or what have you it's I think it's super interesting I think it
really is the perfect the perfect substrate for like a human agent environment
another interesting about this sort of like working in public space is working
in public idea yeah like another interesting thing like I find that on
Twitter very stressful because it's like at any moment you could not come
well no yeah you could become the guy like every once in a while someone does
something stupid and they are the topic of conversation that day about how
stupid they are yeah and it's it's a little stressful to have you know to be
one virality yeah event away from that yeah but the like it requires a certain
thick skin and also just a you have to prepare yourself for that yeah I did it
first to some you know let's get a lot on Twitter for a couple years but I've
basically flatlined my followers like five years now I think I've gained like
50 followers in five years I just stopped trying to engage participate on
the globe I mean it's funny on the nauseous like I stopped trying to
participate at the global level right yeah in the beginning I would try to
tweet and try to get attention from people outside my circle yeah and like
four or five years ago I think during covid I just decided to stop I just
didn't really want to do that anymore and the interesting thing about noster is
that you can sort of live in public in a sense it's easier because first of all
like noster doesn't really have virality to the same degree that Twitter does
right like yeah yes I would say yeah yeah but I mean in a sense there's no you
know if there's no global right to some extent like there's there is a
friction against there's a headwind to virality on noster yeah where Twitter
actually has a tailwind right like they want if there's something that is like
eyeballable yeah they want that they want everyone to see that right like you
know like Elon applies this to himself right yeah I'm sure he makes sure he's
got a tailwind on all his tweets right they're being pushed out much more than
they would organically and so I think that's from like a living from like a
living in public point of view like if you're going to do stuff like streaming
the streaming is also kind of scary right it's like sure you know like what if I
actually pull up some of my notes that have some embarrassing anecdote or some
some stuff about anime that I don't want everyone to know that I let you know
like you know it's kind of scary to have your computer
available to the internet or what if I pull up my emails you know like it is
kind of nice that it's that it's a smaller graph yeah like there's some
complaints about noster not growing a lot but that's actually like I found
myself not using Twitter a lot much since I got to SEC and part of it is
because I like that there's only there aren't that there's enough people to
talk there's enough people I like on noster but there aren't that many more
you know so I think in a sense it's a it's a benefit of noster being like like
you know if if noster grew very big and succeeded quote-unquote in that sense
like in some sense I hope it would still be usable in a way that I'm in just a
wall garden with 24 yeah 20,000 people right like yeah I don't know if I want
I mean unless I have something to sell for example if you have something to
sell you'd much rather be have a wider reach but like just for some some sort
of a quote-unquote authentic authentic uses like a smaller graph is more
beneficial right I think I think that's what noster excels at and I think that's
also thing of what though like the Piraeus or whatever like the where of
Socrates taught yeah the place where he would go on his walks you know down by
the port and Athens it's like how many people were in that dialogic sphere
yeah 50,000 20,000 there weren't that many people you we were limited by
physical space for that and I think I think we will also be I think we see
this emerging now on the internet not only on noster but I think that's what
noster is yeah it's like you're limited by intellectual space there's only so
many people that can talk meaningfully that can't meaningfully participate in
this conversation so it's gonna remain small by one and also it's like there's
not always like there's not always like a right way for a thing to evolve right
like oh no there's many like that's what actual diversity is is like yeah if
you if you if you segregate something off like a physical organism for like in
Madagascar for a hundred million years or something it becomes interesting you
get like a lemur or something right I think lemur's different maybe
else but like you get like an interesting thing and so like like that's
something like you know if Athens had was the size of the United States yeah it
would have never been a different things yeah like you could have never you could
have never had what it was and that's one of things is sort of disturbing about
the modern world is it's like it's like it's like one village now and so you
don't actually get much you know like stuff can't really evolve and become
like an interesting subculture to the same degree if it's on the global feed
yeah because it just it gets everything gets pulled back to the mean I will link
to this article as well with like how how our interfaces and at the world at
large lost its texture basically yeah it's like everything looks the same all
the clothes look the same I mean we're wearing the same stuff yeah we are
literally dressed almost the same we look the same yeah but it's true for like
almost everyone it's all the same it's like we all have the same devices
everyone is the same cars everyone is like I had a beard like I go beard it
really you look like the same guy really it's really bad and and so so I
think there's something to it but I think it's also interesting how for
example there there was this distinct difference between Twitter and Bitcoin
Twitter and there were all these bubbles inside Twitter that were purely there
when it was not because of a spacecon constraint it was only because of a
kind of intellectual conversational constraint it's just like the your
social graph basically and and that the topics would naturally clump you had
like fintech Twitter I mean it was the same kind of anti-entriism thing where
like we'd speak in memes and stuff yeah exactly it's like almost you almost
purposefully I mean like Pierre is like the Pierre Richard is like the person who
kind of helped me understand this where it's like no the the echo chamber is
good I like I cultivate an echo chamber absolutely and like that's that is one
thing that I think well that allowed Bitcoin Twitter to become sort of an
interesting place and I would say it kind of produced an Oscar in some sense
right you know Bittstein's talk of how to mean Bitcoin to the yeah I was in the
room yeah I was the next talk actually so I didn't enjoy it at all because I
hadn't really prepared my slides no one remembers my talk of course everyone
remembers me sitting in the corner trying to get my slides right no but it
but but but they they identified this earlier than anyone else and I think on
the nostro side we have the same effect now it's just like one big bubble more
or less I mean there's other bubbles on us there's like the art people yeah
there's like the jungle people there's like the farmer people the jungle
people are like the one of the things that I can't understand if that's just
purely primal and Jack they were they were there before the skeptic the
skeptic in me thinks it's a paid no but it's I think I know why all of this is
kind of happening in some sense or at least my explanation for it is like
Bitcoin Bitcoin monetized and expanded on the on the fringes on the edges no
it's like you had to be crazy to be an early Bitcoin and like kind of you had
to either live through hyperinflation or be an Austrian or be debunked and yeah
those kind of things like very edges of society multiple edges but still very
very edge of society and I think on the nostro side it's similar now that's why
we have we have the crazy you know like health people that think that blue light
is so toxic that you should never ever see what's anything blue like running
around with red sunglasses at all times and and it's like that's very fringe
kind of stuff and that's you know I'm not gonna mention absolutely all the
fringes because it's like too out there but all the out there people are there
and it's like just living in the jungle going barefoot rising with the Sun
going to sleep with the Sun never touching any processed food ever that's
kind of fringe in our today's society yeah and so I think they are
naturally attracted to noster and it's also what about nos if you think
attracts them I have an answer for this why what is the what is the what is the
shared like would you agree that there's some shared yeah I think because it's
raw and it's true and it requires some work yeah it's it's and I want I wanted
to come back to that the the realness and people really crave realness and
noster and Bitcoin as well it's very real it's like it's you can you can feel
kind of that it's not manipulated by an algorithm it's not manipulated by a big
tech thing or by ads or by influencers or by this and no one no one no one tries
to sell you something everyone's engagement in this is probably at the
pure loss of absolutely yeah I spent trying to develop I'm not I could be
making money selling AI to but not only that I never I never spent money on
software ever in my life like I always hated that thought yeah I'm spending
so much money on noster right now yeah paid relays yeah running my own servers
paid file hosting I started doing this funny I had it like I was using the
primal web plan because again I'm not a party so I can use like two three tools
and this fucking thing wouldn't allow me to upload an mp4 interesting yeah yeah
in the opposite can right I think I don't know but yes you have an iPhone so it's
almost impossible to get a fucking mp4 on my phone literally almost that
camera roll yeah I know yeah it's almost impossible and I was struggling for a
long time and finally I I was like what's that like it's not noster dot build or
something yeah so I pulled up that I knew that this could do this and it's like
what is it like a hundred dollars a year I paid a hundred dollars a year I
had a hundred dollars up on an mp4 of Terry Davis typing into the CIA website
that he's gonna kill them let's go
like you're all gonna this is King Terry you're all gonna die the hand of God
you you are the fringe that no stir is attractive yeah I paid a hundred I
paid a hundred dollars that's by the way that's the reason why I why I switched
away from the iPhone like 10 years ago so because I just wanted to drag and
drop an mp3 file on my phone it was impossible it's so literally impossible
so I gave up and switch and so funny because that was the entire premise the
whole thing in the beginning this is a drag and drop mp3 experience now it's
like you can't even do it again you can't you know you own nothing yeah I know I'm
gonna get a graphing phone and try like every time Vitor and that final guy on
roster he's one of my favorite followers the graphing dove yeah whenever they
talk about graphing it is like that is actually pretty interesting yeah I mean
I run graphing on all my phones yeah yeah it is it is pretty interesting yeah so
I'm gonna definitely you know when I get back home I'm gonna buy one of those
yeah but it is you're the same vein you're saying you're not a power user so I'm
not sure how much fun you're gonna have because it is a power user kind of
thing you will have to think of with it yeah we'll have to spend a lot of
I mean at the same time it's like I did just give up cursor which everything
works to try to do everything on the manline neo van and like I spent
little like this week like we got to go do demos in a couple hours and I have
like nothing like I've been all week I've been like last Tuesday I was about
ready to start making a phone call app like I have the whole setup I have the
whole all the prompts ready to build a like literally like an encrypted audio
call and I have the prompts ready no no literally I have basically done this
after this fucking chamber like I I spent a whole weekend going back and forth I
have this really I have it's perfect like everything is ready like I figured out
exactly the libraries to use how to do it in all rest like the only thing my UI
needs is buttons like I don't you have to do any Kotlin to integrate with the
audio system I don't have to I use one Google live you should use call me web
RTC which is this massive Google it's like 11 components or something massive
C++ code base impossible to cross like really hard to cross compile it's
funny like web RTC is this web standard right so it's the idea to make a
standard and different browsers implement it like Safari and Firefox
did not have enough money to write this so you just fucking run Google C++ code
in their browser so like blue sky works it's kind of insane like it's kind of
insane like it's like learning about this and so I figured out it's one company
who made the standard one company that had enough money to implement it at
one one it's just a talk about it so my thing is like I'm still going to use
the audio processing that's one thing that they that is really good is they
have this you know like noise cancellation library where like you can
make the calls sound really crisp so that's the one thing I'm going to use and
everything else it's it's much simpler things and it's using the same underlying
library that Fediment just integrated for for to make it so you can do peer to
peer connections with the guardians so the guardians don't need DNS names which
is one of the worst things about Fediment is that you need to the guardians need
to get DNS names and you know with one of the federations I forget which one
it was you know they had XYZ things and the registrar banned them you know so I
think they ended up you know being able to sort that whole thing out but it was
really annoying and that's just because it was integrating with this dying web
2.0 infrastructure that is that it's kind of dying and it's one of the
biggest issues of the web is DNS yeah I hope that Noster like I hope that we
can just use switch to endpups basically yeah I don't care how it
resolves underneath yeah I really don't care it's just like I think this is
called IRO like that's it's a cool way to to I think there's some like DHT that
you can use to connect you know nodes to so they gonna like establish it's
very much a coal punch but it's not written in JavaScript which is nice and
and it doesn't have to have its own runtime and it yeah so that is and so
like that I think the Jeff posted the other day this like new social network
yeah yeah build by one guy yeah that's the the guy who did I'm sure did most of
the stuff for Fetteman DVC is an unbelievably good programmer you know
he's just like one of these like rust purists yeah he's just like Noster
sucks cuz that's Jason right like he hates the part that I think is the killer
app that you can get to and I go from idea to implementation in five minutes
that's the party doesn't like yeah because he's like this unbelievably good
programmer yeah but but that's also it's optimizing for the wrong thing because
his stuff is also like purely peer-to-peer yeah that's like extremely misguided I
think it was a deep inside by fear Jeff to actually use relays yeah use them as
dumb servers because my phone is offline most of the time so peer-to-peer stuff
just if you try running peer-to-peer stuff on your phone and like 95% of
people are on your phone it doesn't work but the cool thing for like an audio
call is that it can be like I think it can be better because you can
establish a peer-to-peer absolutely different push notifications different
use case if you're actually calling you're actually using your device that his
rostra thing and then the Fetteman thing kind of opened my eyes to this new
new library and I'm like yeah that would be good for making a phone like just to
have fun not to doesn't have a phone yeah that's one of the like this Unix
tools is like I think about like how could I you know how could you have a
phone that just replaced is all like why doesn't there a camera but that show
but that also shows you what noster already is noster is like the global
address book that's the one first thing in the first chord actually you build
into the the mutiny guys build the social money sending into the Fetteman
stuff that they had and so it's like you want to I want to send money to Justin
yeah I want to call Justin yeah I want to send an encrypted DM to Justin I want
to ask a question and tag Justin like I only like one way I think about
noster is it's like it's like you look at your phone and it's like to me
noster is in a sense it's like the desktop itself and like the contact
book that that's that's why that's so far and it's growing more and more of
it's populating more and more of these and that's why that's why my white
noise is like the messaging thing right like it's good like you have this empty
desktop yeah and you have the fucking contact book which is I like an
abstraction layer in the 2010 era of like Silicon Valley technology like that
was the one thing they were just they would just fight to try to get into your
contacts right like that's what every Facebook and Snapchat is like the one
thing they needed from you is access your address book because then they could
bootstrap their social network without that they couldn't figure out who you
know in order to give you a good experience yeah but it's like the
noster developer experience the contact book comes stock yeah which is pretty
important and I think that's exactly right and it's like it's like it's like
one abstraction layer higher in some sense it's it's it's very very much like
what I just said it's like I just want to talk to an end pop I don't care what
is used underneath and how it resolves whether it's to war or I don't I really
don't care yeah and and so that's one abstraction layer the other abstraction
layer is like I I don't care what client I use I don't care what DM client I use
I don't care what what what I don't know what I used to edit my my profile
metadata of those kind of things and and the way I see it expanding now that's
why it's my dream flow I want to get a new phone I don't care what phone it is
and I want to punch in my my my noster identity in whatever way let's say
it's like 12 words I want to punch in the 12 words and everything is there yeah
same for I mean I'm sure you have a sophisticated like dot file setup yeah
and those kind of things yeah and if you change machines right farming most of
the week yeah there you go there you go and so so wouldn't it be awesome if
it's just like you you you everything is almost like a think client you know
you go there you log in with your noster identity and it grabs all the
right things it knows what what your dot file setup is it knows how you want
your idea to have set up and so on and that's it and in that context it sets
everything up for you yeah that's actually one of the things I was playing
around with him that I want to that I did this because I made like a nix flick
for for X X code oh I saw this idea where like if you want like I've been
trying to make I'm calling it Rust multi-platform so it's like this like
basically like how it's kind of like some of my learnings from when we built
FETI this app you know it's a mobile app right like if I if I had to build a
similar kind of mobile app again how would I want to do things differently
right and so like one thing that I would like to do differently and not not
saying like FETI's bad or anything right it's like it's it's any kind of
project you learn stuff from it right and you think like what would you do next
time and so like you know we had a lot of logic in like what I want to do like
there's this big kind of quest in development and I don't think it's
solvable like there's no solution but there are trade-offs right right so
there's not like what do you look at this yeah yeah yeah yeah this is not a paid
post it's not a paid every time but you know there's no solution so it's
it's not like a thing where you're gonna solve cross-platform development but I
think there's other trade-offs that aren't explored so like one thing people
do for a mobile app is and the thing you can do base the base thing is you'd
write two different apps right one right one for iOS one for Android and
they're completely separate this is what for example primal does right but in a
sense they offload a lot of the their solution is actually to do it on a
server right they have this caching server that actually has like a lot of
their actual business logic is in a is in postgres functions yeah to populate a
cache ahead of time for what your client will see so their cross-platform
development is literally postgres functions which I think technically is
really cool novel trade-off right like that's I think that's that's kind of
interesting like on another one but you know the actual app development is they
have two separate apps which is why sometimes the iOS app is significantly
worse in the Android device versa right like they don't have the same
experience and they have one for web so they have three different apps right so
you see how that was slowed on velocity a lot right where it's like this week
we're implementing some feature we're just playing blossom okay all the devs
go and do the same thing in different languages yeah that's kind of what they
have to do right so in a perfect world you would have to do less of that you
know and so another option is like react native so there's this big thing like
15 years ago or Facebook is like well what if you could just write it all on
JavaScript it's kind of like the noster of social networks in a sense like what
if all these web devs can like make mobile apps wouldn't that be cool but it
came out somewhat of a cost is like JavaScript's not always the best
language and now you have to have a whole runtime you kind of embed a browser at
least the JavaScript part of a browser well and the HTML and the CSS part of
a browser into your mobile app so you have this huge kind of runtime and
complexity cost in order to get this is also it always was a real cost and
that's why the that's always felt sluggish yeah you could you can't feel
the difference between the experience of react native in as a because I've built
a few react native projects in the past like you know Fedi was one and I've
done a couple other ones and the experience is like you launch quickly
like you get off to a good start it's like a projectile though right yeah you
launch quickly and over time your you sort your velocity your vertical
velocity decreases right also what I experienced is like the closer you have
to be to the hardware itself basically yeah the harder stuff gets and it's
just like you'll you'll end up writing native modules anyway yeah yeah now
you have this whole abstraction layer that you're not even using anymore so
like that's one solution and flutter is kind of the same thing with some
technical details but from Google and there's some pros and cons
had a great point by the way just a day be there from amethyst discussing like
what it means to build something in a native way what does it mean to be
native yeah and I think that was excellent because I didn't see that because
it's basically I think it's basically a dig on will be like trying to write
everything as low-level as you can and writing its own like gaming rendering
engine for an Oscar client like rewriting the gift rendering and absolutely
everything you have to rewrite everything from scratch and that's kind
of like like what it means when we say native is like I want my iOS up to feel
like an iOS app yeah my Android app to feel like an Android app yeah here's
the thing and I think that's why it was such an excellent word but it but he
didn't it didn't expand on it properly so so so I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna
try because the thing is like you're so close to the metal and you're trying to
achieve one thing in most cases like he wants to build the most of a rotate he
wants to rotate a cube in the most in the most performant way possible which is
fair it's like you know like you're like a 300 FPS Q yeah it's perfectly
programmer I will never be yeah same for me and I have no I have no
interest in stopping him and the stuff he's building out with the with the LLM
stuff and something it's amazing like I that if you if you if you want to stop
someone like will you retard it like just let's just let's an example of that
divergent evolution though right yeah it is good that he's doing that he should
do all the thing but but my point about that the native apps is like does your
app work with a screen reader for playing people yeah does it work on like
you know like the Android fridge yeah you know that someone is using and
those kind of things yeah and it's like you have no idea how much heavy lifting
that does the animation as you scroll between tabs yeah feel like the other
like that's exactly that's where the actual native feel all the gestures
gestures work like like this is like like flutter I can oftentimes tele flutter
app because they they do like with the difference between react native and
flutter is react native has this runtime to execute code and then it you
produce basic HTML and the the system itself maps your HTML to native
components so it is able to feel a little more native because it's actually using
like native scrolls yeah and then what flutter does is they just have a canvas
that they just draw pixels to exactly and so they're able to they have more
control in a sense but it's also not native components so you kind of everyone
so you kind of feel like that doesn't feel like Android but and you don't even
might not notice it but it like that doesn't feel native if you use this
screen reader because you're blind you really know this because it stops
working yeah if you use it in a different language kind of works for flutter is
that what I mean what do you think their dev cost is on a yearly basis to
produce this hundreds of millions of dollars I would guess right like I saw
some crazy thing this this really interesting guy what's his name he's
making Ladybird this new browser yeah I thought the movie no no no really
interesting guy he serenity what's his name I don't know yeah see he he was
like an addict and he was doing he's a browser engineer who got addicted to
drugs he's very public about it and he's like he's doing the 12 steps and he's
like okay in order to stop doing drugs I'm gonna write an operating system right
just like the temple OS guy I don't know it's it's very similar he's one he's
very admirable people like he's one of the best streamers on YouTube I wish I
could remember his name I see his face but I can't remember his name and he
started streaming it and so it's like he started with nothing and started make
it is I his idea was like the two best things in operating system are the
Unix command line in 90s you'll like this 90s Windows applications because it had
like a very true well it's very like the windows 95
extra useful software actually and it was very texture allow me to go on this
tangent because that's when they built the UI things they figured out so many
things how are you quick for for most okay I'll tell you some things that
stopped working while I while while computer industry evolved we broke so
many things okay so for example the scrollbars yeah you would they were
always visible you would could always see at the glance where you were yeah
we are hiding them okay the the little X a little different on every app yeah
fire boxes different from chrome the little X not like like what is that they
did all these studies they put so much thought into all this stuff like the
Windows 95 UI the general like all this UI stuff that came out of you know like
fucking Bell Labs and all those kind of things also how the mouse works all
those kind of things they put so much thought into it so so they figured out
what are there what are the five positions that the user can access most
quickly with a mouse yeah and it's like top left corner top right corner bottom
left corner bottom right corner because you can throw your mouse in that
direction you don't have to point you can just throw and click yeah that's why
when a window is maximized the close button is in the top right corner you
can throw it click it and the window is closed in modern operating systems the
button is round at the hit the hit box doesn't expand to the top right pixel
yeah and so you actually can't do that anymore so it's completely besides the
point and the most important pixel in terms of mouse that you have is where
the mouse cursor is at right now so if dialogue pops up it should pop up below
the mouse and the mouse should be on the okay button or whatever those kind of
things the old UI systems did this yeah they did this perfectly and they also
had hotkeys for everything for example where it's just like you know like a
control F or alt F or whatever it was his file and every you it had this
coverability for hotkeys where it in the menus it showed you the the hotkeys
are underlined yeah and it would just work and you could in you could get so
good and so quick at using those interfaces and we destroyed all of that
just because we wanted to have it like the designers came in and broke it yeah
yeah yeah yeah no it's like yeah the designer displaced the power users yeah
and it's because we literally had like form follows function and and and now
we really don't have the name I want to look up this guy's name just because I
think the listeners might actually like this but yeah so he started he
started making uh it's his name he started making this browser or this
operating system Andreas Kling yeah he's great YouTube so so for example one of
his YouTube best YouTube videos he's like we don't have a browser and I don't
want to cross-compile like I don't really maybe he did port like Chrome or
some Firefox or something he's like okay we ported it but like it doesn't fit in
I don't like it we need our own so he that's what he does he just like literally
rewrites everything is this operating system has zero dependencies zero it's
like tempo is yeah I know it's really like tempo less right and it has zero
dependencies is he as you say insane that's the tempo less guy in some ways more
in some ways less right like you know I think he's more insane because he
actually is trying to do this whereas I don't think Terry Davis was actually
trying to get people to use this operating system this guy to some extent
is and now but so you did he this great stream where he's like we need a browser
so let's see how do you tokenize JavaScript or I think he had a browser he
had an HTML browser and then maybe they had a CSS and I was like okay we can't
do anything dynamic in our a browser he was like a 1995 browser he's like well
we need JavaScript so he he started he like literally good like Google's
tokenize JavaScript and he in any in any Google's like hello world
JavaScript and he pays the hello world code into the tokenizer and he's like
okay so here's the token so let's go into C++ and let's make a struct and he
starts like copying over the struct and like names the you know fun make like
let's make a token for function let's make a token for closure like for the
name state right and so he slowly so you can see how he started by a hello world
function tokenizing hello world function which any dev can do and then they just
iterated that on a couple years and now it's ladybird browser which they have
taken out of the browser project and now they're actually trying to make this
to be a new browser implementation and so now they did take on dependencies they
use curl for networking they have a couple dependencies like that maybe libGL
for certain things and they're trying either they have like a one or two
million dollar budget and this is why I thought of this guess what Google Chrome's
budget is hundreds two or three billion dollars per year and there these guys
are doing it like one or two million dollars and they're doing a from scratch
browser implementation and the thing that's so inspiring about is he has one
talk but he's like you know most people overestimate what they can do or what
do you say yeah it's the no no no it that was like this that's a different one
he's like he's like he's like people kind of overestimate or underestimate what
you can do if you just if you kind of like you can't remember exactly is you
kind of just keep going if you just keep going like like people always say
you can't build a browser like that was kind of tribal wisdom programming and
he's like well watch me I'm just gonna start from tokenizing JavaScript and now
they're like pretty close to have like they can render a lot of websites they
can kind of render discord they can kind of render Twitter wow like they're
getting pretty close and it's it's kind of an inspirational project of how how
far a small team can go yeah if they just really try hard yeah yeah sure sure I
mean let's yeah that's impressive how many people are are on the team five or
something I mean it's a big community but like there's a few people that work
on full-time yeah and it's you know I mean it's it's just this massive yeah
I mean you truly do kind of see though how I mean it is still possible to build
a browser like they're doing it but it's like man we kind of went overboard
with you know sure it's in a sense like the web got re-architected yeah this is
by the WebRTC examples a good example it's like in a sense the web was kind of
re-architected so that it could be a wild garden yeah as soon as you add WebRTC
to the the whatever IETF spec for the web it is no longer something that even
even Apple can participate in as an equal member right because for WebKit
they just run the C++ code from Google they can't they it does not make sense
for Google a multi-trillion dollar or Apple a multi-trillion dollar company to
re-implement that in yeah so you can't you know like in a sense it's like wow
that that's a it's a very insightful example but just think about it for a
minute for a minute it's like the basically the most valuable company on
earth yeah they have like infinite money for all intents and purposes and it
doesn't make economic sense for them to re-implement it no yeah yeah and well in
a sense too it's like this this this ethos of having independent browser
vendors is kind of dying a little bit like they used to have Internet Explorer
for all of its faults at least it was an implement independent implementation
edge is a is chromium yeah right like it's not even even Microsoft Microsoft
threw in the hat on having a browser implementation right so that's another
way the more I think about not learn about noster because again I'm kind of
a noob I mostly ignored it for the past couple days but one of the things that
strikes me is how how the legacy well it's not it's not just like the walled
gardens of the like fang companies that are yeah kind of maybe the technology in
and of itself the the platform in itself is dying yeah right like it is dying
yeah I mean these are examples of it dying yeah like it is it is it is
atrophy and it's dying and it's and for multiple reasons I think in some sense
just just like I also sometimes watch like various you know streamers and
things and those kind of things this is not this is kind of one of the like we
talked a couple months ago and you were talking about how like noster is the
like kind of the new Internet yeah right and I had no fucking idea what you were
talking about you thought I was crazy no no I mean I knew you're not crazy
because I've known you for a long time but I did spend like a month or two kind
of trying to think like what the fuck is he talking about because I know you're
not crazy but I did not understand what you're talking about yeah and this is
these are some of the things where I've been kind of like I think this this is
kind of gives me the similar feeling yeah yeah it's I think it's our
opportunity to go back to the drawing board and kind of kind of deeply
think about why are we doing the things that we're doing doing currently on the
web yeah and and would there be a better way yeah what if we would go back to
ground zero and build it from scratch basically that's how I look at noster
because in the end it's like lots of the web that we have now it is kind of it's
very simple things done in a very very very very complicated way and I talked
with Paul about this that's why I'm so excited about hyponode and the idea of
it because it's like to render it to the things we need to do to the stuff you
mentioned rendering discord rendering Twitter itself the things we need to do
to render Twitter to render the Twitter feed in the browser it's unbelievable
unbelievable like if you guys are if anyone listening is telling you should
watch these Andreas kling talks or is streams where he does this it's like you
understand like this guy is fucking brilliant and he spent years and these
websites still barely render yeah it's like and and I'm going to compare it to
noster where you can write like a client in any language and render it on like a
terminal and you basically have the same effect yeah I just want to see short
text notes from my friends yeah you know yeah it's like it's and and and that's
that's that's true across the stack yeah I want to share an image I want to share
this is this is a cool thing about what will is doing is that in a sense he's
kind of working in the same area where this is like in a sense I think it's
still like shouldn't be a fucking dumb well it's very half I think it's still
very half bake still which is not a like a genius in my book yeah but it's like
it is like a browser ish like kind of runtime yeah that he's making which is
but but that's the thing about this is why I think that the inside from
Peter was so great because it's like you have to find the balance of going
back to the drawing board and redoing things and like not reinventing the wheel
yeah yeah like you don't actually want to do everything from yeah let me get
back to my rough multiply from idea so like I talked about some different like
one thing is you just make a mobile make a different app on every platform so you
have three code bases like primal right that's one way of doing it and then
there's the React Native where you get one thing but then it often becomes
kind of sluggish and it gets hard to use because it's this JavaScript language
is not it's a shitty language kind of but you know they added TypeScript on
top that which makes it significantly better at the cost of another
abstraction layers now like JavaScript is a compilation target like in the
sense that LLMs are turning React into TypeScript React into accomplished
targets here you're getting more and more and more and more and more layers of
complexity which is not good and this one of the things that's cool about what
Will is doing is because like he is like he has like two layers of complexity
yeah he has like pixels and he draws very close he draws them to the screen
60 times a second right so in a sense that's a really cool thing about what
he's doing is that like the the layers of complexity are he's like cut through
many layers of complexity which is I think promising on a long-term
time and so that is this is another approach you can do this is what like
video this is probably how a YouTube app works right like when you're watching a
video that is rendered they're probably there's C code in the app that is shared
on the iOS and mobile and you you know the app itself just gets like a buffer
60 times a second from C and just paints it to the screen yeah you know and so
that's probably their cross-platform strategy there's another really
interesting one that Facebook did for Messenger where they they had two they
had basically primal has two totally separate apps they had like 1.5 million
lines of code in each one just massive applications and it just became
difficult to maintain and they these were using the old versions of mobile
development like Objective-C and Java which have been supplanted by a new
way of doing it was just remembered in brackets of yeah yeah yeah it's horrible
and so what they did is they re rewrote their applications but they tried to put
as much as possible into a shared C++ library where as much of the state of
the applications possible is written in a sequel light and so the front end basically
just looks for what page are we on in sequel light and just renders that so
it's a little bit like what Will's doing where you know it just it just renders
it from sequel light he wanted to have the most
performed way possible so what he's doing what what Will's doing is
actually very similar to how Facebook Messenger works one of the like top
five most used apps in the world instead of NosterDB it uses sequel light I mean
sequel light is better in some ways because it's like the most it's probably
the most deployed piece of software in the world it's in your phone it's in your
car it's in your fridge it's everywhere but the cool thing about NosterDB is that
it's kind of like an in-memory database so like as you write to it it's still in
memory and so it's able to render straight from it doesn't have to come
from disk it's just straight in memory all the time so that it's just it's as
fast as you could possibly get that's another approach and so the way I would
like to do it is which I don't haven't seen many people doing is I would like to
write as much of my applications possible in one language all the logic and all
the state like what page am I on what what is this is the button disabled is it
not disabled are we in a loading state is there an error message you know what's
the user's name stuff like that like what is the whole state of what should be
rendered I want that in one language that is really good at cross-platform
stuff and you know ideally has a lot of libraries it's really fast and so I
would like that to be Zig just because I have done a lot of rust and I got kind
of sick of it but Zig doesn't have libraries and all ends don't understand it
so I ended up doing it in Rust because it's just so much more mature and there's
so many great libraries especially in the Bitcoin and Masterworld like any
library if there is a library there's one in Rust yeah and this is actually one
of the things that turned me off on WebRTC is I was gonna try to do this
calling thing and I was like well let's do WebRTC there's no rust implementation
like that to me it's like that if there's not a rust implementation of
something a grassroots rust implementation of something by now you
shouldn't use it because it's fucking too complicated it's too fucking
complicated and so that kind of turned me off on WebRTC that was the first thing
that made me think WebRTC might not be a good idea but so that's what I want to
do it all in Rust and then I want to just actually render to the screen with
whatever the standard thing is on that platform like so whatever Apple says in
their presentations you should use I want to use that because that's native yes
not in the sense of speed necessarily because that one way native can be is
like is it fast like that's one sense in which people use native the other
sense is like UI you does it feel look like everything else right so I want to
use Swift UI to to render it I want to use Jekyll pack and pose on Android
because that's what they how do you do the translation you need to have a
wrapper and kind of let me feel like on on Web like if I did it on Web and this
is a little iffy but you know use react because that's just what everyone does
right and and so yes you need a way to make Rust be able to run Rust code in
that context so the cool thing is you know Rust originally started as a project
to attempt to you know browsers have a lot of security vulnerabilities and
because they're written in C and C++ which are not sort of security they're
not they weren't built for security from the beginning and so they they just
tend to have a lot of memory but safety bugs that Rust was invented to fix and
so it was invented by Mozilla and so they built really good tooling to run
Rust inside their iOS app their Android app so it's this project called uni
FFI that allows you to do that it helps you cross compile your code to run on
that platform so you know you write Rust code and then you build it and then it
can run on iOS and it also generates types so you can you know the code that
you can run is easily callable from Swift or from Colin you know so you can
you know so you can you know pass some object representing the user and you can
pass around your application where you want to paint the screen so that's
what so I figured out kind of how to do this and and it was you know it's like
a couple hundred lines of code to make a simple example but I wanted to
simplify as much as possible so I got it down like this is like the first two
weeks I got it down so it's like in Rust you have to define three things you
have to define a message that the Rust could pass to the front end like
basically the state change so we have a user now we didn't have a user it logged
in with their input now we have a user right yeah another thing is like something
that the UI can send to Rust like hey the user clicked the button right do
something you know the user yeah it's usually stuff that based on user
activity and then you have to have something in Rust that will handle these
these you know incoming events from the UI and send events in the other end and
so that's one struct or enum it can be either one I think it's only structs now
but it could be enums and and so that is basically a struct where you have one
thing that you handle messages and you react to them right and so it's it's
really simple it's like three things you have to understand and hello world can
be like I think we got to 60 lines I got to 60 lines of code and I was able to
generate a lot of a code that is needed to sort of do these bridging things yeah
okay like you know the translation from what is in the database to the UI is
kind of basically viable yeah it's no it's it's I my library generates it kind
of okay more or less like you have this struct that's in memory and I had another
version that was in SQLite like mess this messenger thing but what's contained
in this struct is like because some of the UI elements between the platforms
differ right so it's this it's just like what page are we on what what are we
renders who does the translation from a page of how how does the top navigation
bar look because on iOS you have the the little so you think of it this way like
you're you're you're building up a stack of views right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
yeah so you you see you'll have a stack of views with the data that is
associated with them and then you're rendering in Swift UI or Jetpack
Compose gets that you know think of it as a struct or a JSON object and it just
it you know it'll look at the top one and that's what's on the top of this that
it'll you know something the view will also have a title and so because I
just place the title for you yeah yeah the same is what vital is going on it's
like the coding it's actually presenting the page is probably exactly what amethyst
does it's just whatever that you do in in Android like whatever the standard
thing is and you're just doing it based on data that is it's in like a view
model it's in it's in something I think it's called like composable or
something in in Jetpack and post so it's a it's a it's a basically a type of
struct that can notice when attributes change right so like you can have stuff
where like if you have your state and rust and it changes you have to somehow
tell the front end that something change it need to re-render that's if
you're a reactivity it's basically like when did my data change when should I
paint again yeah will doesn't have this problem because he when does he paint
again 60 times a second he paints no matter what like he doesn't have to he
doesn't have to notice if something changed because as soon as he's done
painting he starts painting again yeah all he does is paint you know you paint
paint paint that's all will doesn't you know that's what his app does that's
why it's so fast so so so that's but that my library generates all this
free so you don't even see any of that shit you just see this this this you
know some data structure that your editor understands so you can jump to
definition see what the types mean you can autocomplete stuff and so you know
you say what page are we on okay then render that page in the this you know
SwiftUI or Jetpack and post router okay we're on that page what is the user's
name put that in there you know yeah it's it's so it's purely declarative and
all you do is given this piece of data you draw with how they do it and so the
cool thing about this like one reason I don't want to do the way that like
say primal does it is that I don't want to write three ui's yeah like if I want
to write an app I would like it to one multiple places and I am not gonna
learn I'm not gonna learn Swift I am not gonna call in it I'm not gonna do
that but I am willing to learn a little bit about the like the DSL for how to
lay out a page because that's much simpler than the language itself right
you don't have to understand currency you don't have some memory you don't
have some garbage collection you don't have to fucking anything and in general
if you set up the tools well enough this is what I've been working on since then
I was talking about these MCPs I think you should get to a point where you can
basically vibe code the entire UI yeah so what you're actually engineering
mostly is that the logic like what should this do what should when I get an
event what should my events right like how how well what are the events that
that the user can trigger and what what are the effects that I can present to
them after that's happening like a loading state or like the post is
published and now you're looking at the post right yeah so you think about that
and how to handle it and you know you write your logic and rust and then you
get just a very simple thing that you can tell an LLM to you know render this
drawing I made yeah you know and and so I did this I did one demo with this
which was like a unique e-cash wallet that I was able to I was able to I made
an Excalidraw for the flow of the app it had like seven pages and and I took
this Excalidraw and I gave it to an LLM and said implement this and it
and it implemented that it had a few it did like two or three things wrong but
I was able to cut them out like I had a history thing you're supposed to swipe
up to get it it didn't get that and it put two screens in the wrong order I
just reordered them manually and then it was basically what I drew insane it
was insane yeah and so like so I think this it's a good fit for LLM tools because
it's like you still need software you're not yeah I don't really believe in the
world where you have really high quality apps are purely produced by a computer
like I don't think that's realistic at least now but I think parts of it can be
produced by computer and the one thing that they're really really good at is
making you eyes yeah and so that's the like so you can get like so a lot of the
vibe coding like aha moments or when you try to make like a little like one
like 500 line react app it can one shot those but if you have like a 10,000
line react app you try to get a feature it's gonna get lost yeah but like so
can you make a big complicated app where at least in the UI side it's very simple
and all the DAB is there and there's an LSP for it to tell it if it's the
lynching's wrong and it can screenshot the UI to see if it matches up with the
flows you gave it so that's something where it's like me as a solo developer I
feel like I could maintain five nostrils yeah that are very high
performance is not as high performance as one specific thing yeah it's not
asked for high performance is Will's thing but it's also like you know he's
having to implement gift renders yeah I don't even understand how my UI is
rendered like I don't even yeah you don't need to care I don't care you don't
need to care yeah right like it's it's it's like a button for me yeah it's funny
to see how this evolves and should we walk one more around and then like grab a
coffee yeah it's like I think I can walk again for a little bit but the so
Pablo also I spoke about it with him last week so he is transforming NDK now
and especially the NDK documentation so he's producing snippets basically stand
alone code examples of how to do one thing yeah and make it like very easily
digestible by an LML yeah yeah and just and just that's the documentation so
this is another thing I want to do is there's this thing called seven gooies
yeah yeah yeah I know it from Paul yes seven gooies is like how do you say
it's like it's like a benchmark for UI frameworks right so it's like the
first thing is a counter app the second app the second one is like click the
calendar and it increments yeah plus one down right and then it's a timer right
which is has to have like some asynchronous thing where you're counting
and then there's like a temperature converter and the last one is a
spreadsheet yeah as this like as I was implementing this I was going back and
forth with LMS being like write me the rust side of it yeah and then like okay
and then I say okay this would be the data model right like now write me a UI
based on the static data so I didn't actually write the app so I was thinking
about like could this how would it look like in this paradigm to do the whole
seven gooies and eventually I will implement all of them and that will be
my docs right so it's like here is the full GUI benchmark yeah and so now you
should be able to understand like like you'd give that as context to models and
be like here are examples of apps yeah like and you could give it like you
know if you had a bunch of little you know I make a little e-cash while make a
little a couple things like that and those could be the things that that the
LLMs used to kind of as context to generate their code I think we'll have
to turn around here yeah it's it's really funny to me to see it evolve and how
everyone uses that and now we're purpose-building tools to make it
easier for us to work with LLMs going forward yeah that's what that's why
you are building Rust multiplatform yeah I mean it's funny too because I'm
never the type of person that would work on a framework like that just it's not
appealing at all yeah like I'm much more of a pragmatist for it's like I just
want I have a thing I want you are being pragmatic yeah yeah well but this is
something where it's like I can't tell if it's just because I'm more mature now
as an about and developer because like especially in FEDI and FEDI meant like
that was such a massive project I learned so much from like you know like
there's a time where I had the entire FEDI meant thing in my head and I had the
entire FEDI thing in my head the whole thing in my head and it was watching it
for two years and learn so much as though like it made me like kind of a
little more interested in oftentimes we you know we'd have a problem and we
build tooling and the problem would go away yeah so it's like I think it was
part of it is like this is a natural progression the developer goes through
whether you see enough and you're like damn certain tools really make your
problems go away so in a sense I'm just learning from that experience but it's
also like the LLM where it's like I would have never spent time you know I had
like seven structs and stuff that for the first version of this that I did
manually and then I got it down to three with a macro with macros that would
generate code for me and I have I'm generating all kinds of code just so I
can get it maximally simple yeah and see if it could work and that's something I
would have never done manually I've never written a rust macro because I
don't have the fish and autism like I would always have a guy for that right
like we should run in boat if people yeah like after after listening to all
that let's see but I know like I've been doing rust and I was pretty good at it
but I've had like almost like an unconscious policy I will not write a
fucking macro yeah like I'm not gonna do it because it's it's very difficult this
is actually one reason I write I think Zig is cool so rust has this like the
heart of macros like meta programming so it's like programming that generates
your coat your program and it's the hardest type of programming like in C
for example you have to it's two languages see the actual runtime language
it's pretty simple like you can learn it in like a couple days because there's
not that many structs but of course there's a lifetime of little nuances but
the meta programming like the if-deaf like yeah if I'm declining on Mac OS like
inject this code if not that's like a whole nother language and it's dog shit
yeah compared to see like see very elegant kind of amazing language that it's
still the go-to thing for embedded programming for example like 50 years
layer yeah it's unbelievably how how good and how success how well they
sign yeah yeah but the macro language sucks and I would say rusts is not that
much better it's better but it still sucks like it's very uh you look at a
rust rust code it's not so bad you look at a macro it's like Jesus I'd like
just don't dollar signs everywhere it's really confusing the cool thing about
Zig is it has something called comp time where you can just label various
variables or functions and that code is executed while your code compiles so
your meta programming is not a second language like it is and see or a second
language like it is and injects that compile time it's it's the same syntax
but it's just evaluated when your code compiles and so you can have like a
variable for example where you you evaluate it at comp time and even the
statically typed language where you know you have a function it should only take
a 32-bit integer or 16-minute integer it should be different you can say
comp time and you can say hey a comp time will make separate versions of this
function for any type of integer so now you have like Python style duck typing
where yeah any sort of int looking thing can work because at comp time you
basically generate versions for every one of these so it's like that's one of
the really cool things about Zig is is the hardest part of programming that a
programming is now just as easy as the normal part of programming but yeah I
don't know why I went off on that tangent I mean it's a I knew I knew it
would be a sick conversation so yeah I knew it would be I think I think I
think it would be cool and nostril if we could have more unique style and this
is one thing that's made me a lot more interested in I think that's actually
where it's trending I really I really do I already use different nostril apps and
tools it's funny in a sense it's trending in the opposite direction on the visible
level because all the apps are becoming more and more monoling like primal and
primal and amethyst is becoming more and more I think we have to differentiate
I think it's becoming bimodal right like you're having you have you have
monolithic apps and then you're gonna have the opposite and there's gonna be
even it's gonna be no mid-curve I think kind of yeah like you either have to
have the kitchen sink or you're gonna be one off and the thing is like the
Unix apps on on iOS if you're trying to do this on iOS like it you're kind of
neutered because you can't have a you can't have one relay you actually can so
like in general iOS can't apps can't talk to them each other like you can't
have an on device relay is what you mean or yeah you can't you can't have a
sh well okay so let me back up like the unit the whole point of Unix tools is
that you can pipe them yes right so the input is text output is text right so
you can the cat program reads a file and puts it out and then you can pipe that
you just do the vertical straight up and down character we're just saying this
for the listeners and then you can pass in the next thing like grep grep searches
so you can get search search it for something you're interested in and then
you can use like another said to replace so you can read a file search what's
relevant and then find and replace the part that you want to do like rename a
functioning and so that's the brilliance of like a bunch of little single purpose
tools kind of suck if they can't be composed but if they can be composed
it's a superpower and that paradigm still exists 50 or 60 years later yeah from
why Unix was invented and that's what this is one of the two things that Andreas
Kling was trying to you know put into his operating system the other one was
the windows things right so so if you translate this to mobile the thing you
need is for apps to talk to them each other yeah you need to input an output
between apps you need to be like a function in a sense right at least at
least some something like that like I don't think you'll ever get quite to the
Unix tools level but you they need to talk to each other I mean that's the whole
idea of dbm said the whole idea of nostril events in the first place yeah I
mean that that can help to some degree but like you can't like so one thing
you just start from scratch like okay I would like to have one app that does
sign it like I want to prepare an event and then I want to have another app
sign it yeah you that's very easy on Android you basically we have it on
you can't really do it on iOS with one exception that's almost hilarious the
part of me wants to do it just to piss everybody off you can do it if the
apps are from the same app developer so what I could do is I could make an
Apple developer account and I could have a Unix tool set of iOS apps that can talk
to each other only because I only because they're my wall of garden
like every every app that's signed by the same developer I think so that's my
understanding right so if you saw it Yeti project I forget the guy's name is
doing it but it's like a signer for iOS that's the constraint is that it all
has to be you know it is a signer that can be used by multiple out what if we
what if we what if we use something smart like frost to share our ultimate
signing keys but have it but potentially so that this would be an irony
like just a shared noster iOS app sign you could you could you could we could
do something like that where we have like the entire noster equals no one
actually owns the key it's just generated from my care for like a thousand keys
yeah like you we could have a noster like we would have to set up some kind of
legal identity for iOS except it yeah but like you could we could have had like
a pool of a thousand keys a federation we could have a federation and you'd get
like the Android user experience I've been thinking about doing that but but
it does you know in in lieu of that you could have a pretty cool they get
it makes me much more interested in Android because like these things just
work yeah you know so the unit absolutely works a unique tools vision is much
more achievable on and that's why I'm saying like I'm already using it like
that and I know my mom is never gonna use an ostrich like that you know like
she's gonna default to a kitchen sink client that's on and that being said
I'm still a huge fan of both prime or eventually block will make a phone sure
yeah that does this but I'm like I like I run amra I run so I have an
on-device relay I have an on-device signer you know I have I've dedicated apps
for various things for various content types and those kind of things but here's
the interesting thing with this Rust multi-platform like if I got it
sufficiently good where it's like like the thing I was working today is like
Reaper this week was reached produce will build right yeah like I packaged
hex code I packaged it so like I could build it's not quite there but I could
build my app on both platforms reproducibly with a fresh laptop I just
bought yeah you know and I can I can do that same thing the same build for my
dev the same build for when I produce like an actual APK or something that
needs to be like secure same exact software set up bit by bit and what
friends and CI which runs my tests which gates like whether the code is
accepted or not yeah so like so that's not like if I have all these tools I'm
pretty sure I could build this entire ecosystem myself like literally one guy
like I would not need any help and I could build like ten apps not the
entire ecosystem but like enough where there could be a phone there could be a
camera there could be like I feel like I could kind of have the Unix tools of
like a phone and like one guy I think I could actually do all this myself if I
had the tools good enough ahead of time yeah and you know like the signer
wouldn't be that hard because there's like these Rust libraries are really
good right the relay wouldn't be that good because I'm leading on all these
great libraries yeah but I think I think the way smarter way would be to figure
out how to get around this limitation and share a signing key in some way yeah
yeah in some cryptographic way that that no single person can pull the whole
effort because it's it's I don't I don't believe in doing things oh yeah
I'm not saying this that I would like I don't I wouldn't I wouldn't seriously do
this I always worry about Pablo because he tries to do all the things
himself basically yeah and it's also the other thing too is like like this is
another thing that's not necessarily that I would want to do that because I
actually don't want to do that very much don't want to do that don't want to be
in charge of all that but it's it's like a benchmark right like could you do it
all yourself yeah that's right yeah if you could because like I'm a smart
developer but I also have a limited things like holding my head at once right
if it's simple enough I can do different things yeah it's like well I know a lot
of guys who could just pick up a few of these apps and do them themselves yeah
there's probably plenty others who could do it solve themselves but it would
make it in a community context more maintainable by a group right like if
if one person could do it all if you got it simple enough where one person could
do 10 yeah yeah then it's very simple and then you then you don't need so that's
thing then you don't need 10 then you don't need one person anymore yeah because
then you can that's fair then you can share it like then you can share the load
a lot easier you can open it up but if it's like in order to get started like
this is the problem I confirmed when we first started Fedis like how the fuck
do you put all this fancy ass rust code into a mobile app right like that was
very difficult for a month just figuring out how it is because there's no
prior there isn't good prior art for this yeah like there was like two or three
GitHub examples I saw that were shitty and I had to just figure it out so it's
like if all of that was just kind of taken care of for you where like and the
AI could you just have to write a little logic and you have to kind of no rust
and you have to and the AI will write your UI for you and you know you're at the
end of the day you're using like the rust nostril SDK you're using lipsecp
rust wrapper you're using all these the heavy lifting it's easy to pay you're
using Fediment client using all these great rust libraries like you yeah I
think more more stuff becomes possible there yeah and I mean the other option
is like you know you just kind of the version of this now is everyone just
writes web apps but yeah I think the I don't know there's something about like
quote-unquote native app it just feels so much better in your hand it's also it's
like what most of the nostril developers miss or many of the nostril developers
miss like those that are building the web apps it's like 98% of people are on
phones yeah it's just like your web app is completely uninteresting if there
isn't an app that people can install those people are not gonna use it but I
mean you can install it as a PWA and like I think mutiny showed that you can get
a pretty good PWA yeah you can do this but it's not it's not it's not people
don't know what it is and how do you do it's kind of jamming a square into a
round hole a little bit right but it's like I'm I'm kind of you know I'm of two
minds with all that stuff because it's also I think that the app stores are
gonna be a massive yeah issue going forward this is the other thing that
and that makes Android is fantastic just because of Sep Store alone yeah no that
that's the other thing that makes Android so much more appealing is like
let's say I did this on iOS like literally the only way I would do this
actually so the idea that one person could do it alone is false cuz I could
write all the if you could sidelone on app stores yeah on iOS maybe I could do
this yeah but without that like I would literally kill myself if I had to like
literally if I had to manage 10 different app like that is the code
signing along I mean it's funny the we'll know that the code sign I could do all
in next but I can automate all that the fucking clicking around the the generating
the screen Joe oh and and then like the retarded things the reviewers send back
like it's more of that like doing with that person that's different every time
and is an idiot and doesn't understand what you're doing yeah and you are
probably you know going against what they want you to do to some extent yeah
sure like that was so I would have to hire somebody to do that yeah like there's
no way I would do that myself I would I would just crash and burn if I tried to
do that yeah but that's that's the thing that's so appealing with zap store is
like you know you could get it where it's like if CI is green 10 minutes later
there's a new yes absolutely that's how it works right now yeah and and that's
that's really appealing yeah and yourself sign it so like distribution
distribution is like in if I kept doing this like in principle I think I
could get the distribution story for zaps for Android to be as good as it is
on the web because that's the thing that's actually the thing right now that the
web is really good at is the distribution is so easy yeah like you can just set
up get hooks to resell and your website shows up yeah when it's done building
yeah like no like you push it to github yeah as long as it's on yeah you know
like but that sort enables this for AP AP case but and that's one thing that
I you know like I don't think any of us understand how important that is like
we don't oh I maybe most people don't most people don't understand yeah I
don't think I appreciate yeah I don't think I appreciate yeah like every week
I'm like more realizing super important how important that is yeah so I don't
think I fully understand it because I did I'm more bullish on one than I was
last week yeah and last week I was more bullish on that was the previous week
so I just look back forward like I don't think I understand it quite yet and also
with enough tooling this stuff will be easier and easier and easier and it's
still so underutilized because Step Store is mostly an Android thing now but
also if I if I'm downloading Sparrow Wallet or like Bitcoin core client or
whatever it's like I want to make sure that it's signed by the right people and
they are part of my web of trust yeah I would just want to see it immediately I
want to I want to have these checks happen automatically yeah and and we
don't do all that yet we have like primitive CLI tools that implement that
a little bit that's on like like friends that built up those and so on but but
we don't really like and no one stops us from like improving up up on home
room for example by connects yeah like we can't do that also all kinds of
package managers and so on like we can improve just by adding nostril to to this
layer and also also saps and micro payments yeah it's like it's it's they
even have it in NPM right where it's like these these projects are looking for
funding and those kind of things like like if you if if that's how I use
not right now if I find something amazing I'm gonna set it one if it's like an
amazing tool I'm I'm happy to set the package straight up thing I'm really
interested in trying to do is integrate Zapp's row with Nix so like the whole
idea of Nix is that you you declare what inputs are to a build process so a
build process is like you have code and you want to turn it into something you
can run right this is for the you know listeners right so you have code like
text in a file and you want to turn it into a thing you can run on Linux or
an APK or something and you know somebody has to build that right and so like for
example you know Nix is very similar to geeks geeks it's the same idea but a
different implementation geeks is like more hardcore Fos type people that don't
want to be stuck switch to geeks like before you use geeks right so the thing
is it allows like a very very reproducible build where with almost zero
dependencies right like and for context right like you know the old way they
did it was Gideon and so the environment you use to build your new version of
Bitcoin core was Ubuntu Ubuntu contains like 400 megabytes of trusted
binaries yeah so like you have 400 megabytes of stuff that could be an
attack surface that could be an inflation bug yeah and you don't know and like
it's reproducible meaning like you put code in you code plus Ubuntu equals
binary you get the same one every time but since the inflation bug could be
in the you want to and not the code yeah you might have an inflation bug every
time yeah so get geeks was an attempt yeah the issue is that you can you can
build a hostile compiler that injects stuff yeah do your things and you will
it will be almost impossible to detect it so you have to bootstrap the whole
thing yeah out of nothing yeah knowing every step along the way what it does
without adding any external dependency the craziest thing the geeks goes called
stage zero so this is where they they start with 200 bytes I think 200
bytes of trusted binary so it's literally like assembly code that's
commented saying what each instruction does yeah and that is bootstrapped into
something that can like interpret a little bit more and so there's like
how paranoid those people are there's three layers of reading text and then
they write like three layers of scheme compilers like the simplest list dialect
and then they build like TCC it's called it's like a really primitive basic
compiler and then they build another one and then they build GCC which can
build everything see like nine stages to get to see a real C compiler and so
nix is the same thing that's not quite as you can't bootstrap it quite as well
but it's it's very good in the sense that you declare what do I need to build this
software and then it can just build it without any globally installed stuff
which is where you get all the you know problems both for a developer experience
but also for like building a trusted binary so what you could do is you could
make it so like every time I run a project that contains some of this stuff
I could have like one little command to like build and publish event of what
hash the binary was you know stuff like that right so you could you could have
like an extension to nix where every developer who uses it in their flow
whenever they publish a binary or whenever they run a binary for anything
it can just publish it and something and as an ostrich events and so you could
get sort of like a real web of trust on binaries for free yeah you know and like
not necessarily for free like someone like Zabstor would have to be you know
aggregating all this and trying to notice if two people disagreed but you
could just you could see automatically like well did Gigi and Justin ever build
amethyst and get different hashes for a given version yeah right so like that
would be really cool where you could get almost automatically just a normal
developer workflow or CI pipe yeah now we have dedicated you know like I can
be able to spot with the let's say I don't know I am first but let's say they
publish it via their CI yeah right like I could take their code and I could run
into my own CI server and and you could see whether like my setup in there setup
disagreed or not so like I think there could be stuff like that where you could
I think this Zabstor idea like binaries plus kind of attestation I think that
the same the meta idea is like you want to you want to have the trust
distributed for multiple sources as much as possible yeah you don't want to
have a single point of failure a single source of trust yeah and what you are
saying is basically you'll have that automatically just because every single
developer so I could have a I could have a check I have I could have a next
server that just watches 50 github repos yeah if they if they you care about
that's the thing yeah if they use if they use Nix or if I think my social
network here's there could be something out that I don't ever want to
yeah but you still want to check it you know Jesus is his his Jesus in the
sandwiches Tamagotchi idea yeah maybe I never use that yeah but maybe I think
my followers might be interested so I could set up a basically a CI server it's
not it's kind of like CI but like a server that watches 49 githubs that I
care about plus that one whenever there's a new thing whenever a new release
branch whenever a new release is published I download the code I it just
does a Nix build it's all automated with no real coding effort on my part and it
just publishes what about what hash I got yeah and so you could get you know like
well how Nix currently works is there's like you know there's a big package
registry that's on github and I think they basically have one server like this
Hydra server that builds stuff and publishes it and says those are what the
real hashes are right yeah I don't understand it very well but I think
that's basically how it works so it's like you do in the Nix ecosystem you are
kind of trusting I'm sure there are other people checking each other but it's
not it's it's very it's very like centralized in the sense that there's not
more than a hundred of them yeah I mean that's that's that's the name of the
game we want to we want to we don't want to remove trust entirely we just want to
remove trusted third parties as much as possible yeah that's why you know like
I'm I'm still trusting my web of trust yeah that they're not malicious and not
pushing malicious binaries and all those kind of things but it's just it's
always better to have I believe to have multiple sources and kind of like crowd
source this stuff and just kind of yeah like have a balance that keeps everyone
in check right now also with the with the app stores for example there's one
instance if they want to remove you from the app store you're done yeah that's
it yeah if you don't have any checks and balances or anything like that and should
we do one more like up and down and then grab a coffee I'm really I'll need some
I'll need some drugs very soon yeah the heat stroke yeah hits and I'm still
half sick and limping
that's a nice day it's not raining it hasn't rained yet oh yeah that's that was
something I never factored into the you know oh let's just go on and walk and
have a conversation kind of thing it's like what if it starts raining what if
there's like you know like I really should have brought like a raincoat I
did zero research and I get here and we're going on these walks and stuff I'm
like oh shit yeah it's it's unusually it's unusually rainy it's off Morocco
this is gonna be like a beach town I brought the flip-flops you know it's gonna be
like even look at the weather like 80 degrees every day but it was winter
right now basically so it's it's it's really like unusually cold and rainy and
oh man it was so windy last time with with Pablo like a bus stop flew away and
like it was you it was mayhem it was like hurricane left away yeah so very
very unusual weather but yeah no I I to me it's super exciting to to watch
kind of the culmination of so many things and strains of thought and it's
all kind of culminating now in the not their e-cash world in some sense it's
like because a lot of the I talked with Kelly about this briefly a lot of the
cares computer club hacker scene Berlin type people they really love e-cash they
hate Bitcoin they love e-cash they know it's the right idea lots of the AI
people they know they need micro payments yeah some of the serial knowledge
compute people and so on they figure out now noster is the perfect substrate to
do stuff not a new shit coin not a new whatever other thing and for communication
and like like simple X and all those kind of things as well it's like you you
need a substrate that does the the the social lookup that initiates the
handshake for example you know it's just like you said with your phone and
NPAB idea you need to whole punch to something yeah and it might as well be an
NPAB you know you don't want to build up a new layer of well the whole the whole
point of building a phone like the phone a building a phone calling out it's like
the worst idea possible normally it's like how the fuck am I gonna get another
phone number but you know that's not I can't you know phone numbers are
massive shit but like whatever the analog is what you're doing it's like
you're you're looking at such a monumental effort yeah to develop a
contact book of people you could interact with yeah but with noster you
get it for free yeah you know so it's it's kind of funny that I got interested
in this because it's like it's like the worst idea normally right yeah yeah
yeah yeah it provides a lot of things for free and I think also like like this
calling thing isn't like one of the apps that the Bitcoin world has produced it
as I think the one of the best user experiences is Keith yeah Keith has a
it is no one really knows how it works for for some for some things like you get
on a call there I've been on a few called video calls where it's like this
has better latency than zoom yeah right it's like the call is higher quality
than zoom yeah what's going on here right because it's direct that you both
have good connections exactly so but then there's there's some downsides
right like no one knows how it works it's not open source which is to me
extraordinarily suspect security focused app from a company with a
money printer yeah like a literal money printer yeah like very suspect yeah and
you know architect like I went and looked at the the binary to try to understand
how it works and it's like they do all this obfuscation to see to hide where
the code is right like the actual source code is in a platform that mp3 file
yeah mp3 it's an mp3 file so I had I had to I had to well the crazy thing is
one of the I was asking one of the alums about stuff it actually knew about the
platform that mp3 file from a Chinese forum there's a Chinese I wouldn't go
I'm for I have like an hour conversation I was trying to get the LLM to tell me
how it knew that because it's it was O1 Pro and like O1 Pro is hard to get it
to answer direct questions so you know because it has bad social skills yeah he
has bad social skills yeah as I mentioned but someone knew this so I was able to
get in there and it's like say the single hyperdrive which is a way of like
having like it's like a file it's like a file system mounted on the DHT and
this is where like the UI components are saved so the UI components are in
like a binary format in their DHT file system that's how it is that's
interesting which is like what's going on here you know and then and then the
identity is something I don't even know how you have to just do it all from
scratch that's where nozer comes in it's like well if you could just add even if
you kept all the and it's where we're to see if you just kept all the technical
stuff and just added nostril identities I think it would be at least for my
social group it would be better yeah because then I could call you yeah I
can't call you on keep because I don't I doubt we'd have to do some damn thing
yeah but if it was if you had nostril is I could call you directly yeah and but
yeah and that's in the end always what you want to do right like you want to
send money to someone you want to call someone you want to send a message to
someone you want to tag someone you want to you want to I often just want to go
like hey I think this article would be interesting for you I just want to
tag people in articles it's just like hey like that's I I suggest you read it I
don't necessarily want to DM you the link that's kind of you know what I mean
yeah yeah we we are evolving all these these different levels and layers now
it's like I definitely don't want to send you an email with like hey dear
Justin I mean that's another one that would be like a Unix thing that would
be interesting it's like they're just the notifications that you want to get in
their notifications tab yeah but like you don't necessarily I don't
necessarily want my yeah it's like my Twitter feed time so take it or leave
it yeah well I'm not mad if you don't but I don't I don't necessarily want to
see like long-form stuff like to me the one form should be like a separate world
I agree I'm in a totally different mind space when I'm using like an art
theatre I still hate kind of the fact that first of all Twitter removed the
character limit second of all no sir didn't reintroduce the character limit
for kind of ones yeah I think kind ones should be tweets and they should be
short yeah and a long-form is something completely different but that's a good
example in the in the kind of the monolithization of nostril right like
it's like the clients are becoming everything and everything is in these
clients and it's like it'd be but I'm already using DVM some clients that hide
long-form stuff it's like I use I use the you know I did buy this one I know
I'm left side of the of the welfare kind of you know I want to use the stupidest
tools imaginable yeah and and so so I vibe coded the DVM into existence with
like let's someone build a DVM that only shows tweets that are shorted in
210 characters basically yeah and I use it all the time because I don't want to
read walls of text when I scroll through my feet yeah it's like it's it's
limitation is what fastest creativity and limitation is what made Twitter
great I think yeah and but I think we will have this specialization it's like
you know a live stream and like a comment in a chat of a live stream is
different than a tweet yeah you know it's a different thing it's a different
interaction yeah it's like a highlight of a long-form article or margin notes in
a book are a different thing than a tweet yeah it's it's the kind of this
conversation slash war is currently going on because people obviously have
different opinions on it like what should be a kind one and what shouldn't
and so yeah and then and how should we render it because Pablo has a great
point that you should make it at least discoverable that this stuff exists on
us so it should pop up in your kind one feet from time to time in a sense like
you know like this is this is a highlight and but your client right now
cannot really run the highlights for example and all those kind of stuff but
yeah we'll figure it out all right coffee yeah any more sick thoughts no
I don't know it's a distant story you're back it's but a nightmare it's sick
developer who is building rust multi-platform yeah I'm gonna go build some
web apps now let's do it it's that's that's that's that's the new after all
this gig of rain thing I'm gonna go build up you're gonna just speak
into my yeah awesome no let's let's close it here okay I think that was
great I'm a little bit dizzy but it's just me being sick let me give it let me
give you a hug and I'll I forgot to do the snap in the beginning so I'll have to
do that now because otherwise I have no way to sync it up if we if we fucked up
and it might be the first recording that we have actually has an mp3
file from the get-go okay I think it's the first time after eight tries or so or
nine tries now that I got it right but we'll find out I always press to I
forget to press record on the phone or the cable breaks or it like it always
fucked it up where's the cable that okay that thing oh so it's a good receiver
yeah so it's still working and it's which they put sore sometimes it might be a
graphene thing I don't know and then it just recorded my pocket so it's a all
right that's a good one fantastic