1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,800 all right that looks good exactly one more three two one go okay that looks 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:12,300 good all right don't touch anything and if we run out of battery we run out of 3 00:00:12,300 --> 00:00:19,880 battery we'll see how it goes it really is a nice day that's that's we're gonna be 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:26,000 you have water right some okay good let's go that way I think let's go this 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:32,640 direction we're gonna hit the tunnel straight up all right we actually we 6 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,200 actually fixed blossom on the pirate ship I think this time I think I managed to 7 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:43,920 convince hazard to transform blossom into more into a protocol I just want to 8 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:49,440 have the same the same exactly the same like it's no stir is genius because it's 9 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,160 it's literally like any bends and then profound sense on it's it's just the 10 00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:59,840 ID and just as no stir colon and the ID and so the identifier is independent 11 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:04,360 from where the thing is like it's basically content addressing in some sense 12 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,160 and blossom is the same idea and and I don't know why I think because fear 13 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:13,120 Jeff hated it we never went the because it's it's it's it's it's clients don't 14 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,200 implement it just looks weird but it's true for no stir clients as well you know 15 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,840 what I mean they sometimes say if you link to a different profile in your 16 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,760 profile description some clients don't resolve it and it looks weird you know 17 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:30,280 and so so but what what we what we kind of need on the blossom side is you 18 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,280 want to have self-healing links and the only way to do it is to go this route 19 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,880 otherwise it's gonna be very client-heavy and so on and I think I convinced 20 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:43,000 hazard to go ahead and we found a way to stepwise do it so that it's not 21 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,440 terrible let's see I'll probably lose most of the pictures that are posted so 22 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,720 far no no no because we're also we'll also build we'll also build a health 23 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:57,200 monitor thing like a pacemaker a master pacemaker that goes over all your 24 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,240 notes and all your blocks and everything and just spread it every it's a 25 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:05,680 similar idea to actually what the mutiny guys build in the beginning with the 26 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:12,480 blaster relay similar idea just just more tactful where it's just like my 27 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,720 relay set changes over time I want to re-broadcast it over time my blossom 28 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,640 servers change over time I want to have like a little tool that monitor 29 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:25,080 stuff and re-upload it and so on keeps things alive for me have it local yeah 30 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:31,760 exactly local voice also a big topic just local relays local blossom 31 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,880 servers using local relays is local cash that's those kind of things local 32 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,800 first yeah it's it's frustrating to me a little bit that not all apps but if 33 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,520 you you know you get on airplane you go offline not sure it should work oh 34 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:54,040 yeah just wait until you see my demo even though I have a yes nice and even 35 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,480 though I have a local relay only my own messages end up in there with most 36 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:03,160 clients like they post to your local relay but yeah gobble up everything and 37 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:08,160 just put it there yeah yeah and I got like 128 gigs to spare yeah I mean the 38 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,000 phones are powerful and things are probably let me let me do one little thing 39 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,200 because just to I still get shit for the I still get shit for the audio 40 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,920 quality so I think if we do it like this yeah and you just turn to me always 41 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:26,800 then we'll we'll we'll be better maybe okay yeah I don't know maybe I made 42 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,480 it worse I probably made it worse there's a constant case of Foschlinbesson 43 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:39,640 yeah it's the perfect German word it's like you try to make something better 44 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,760 but you actually make it worse yeah yeah so the the act of improve worsening okay 45 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:53,560 yeah yeah no but I mean I I feel like we we we should reclaim local host yeah 46 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:58,480 yeah that should be one of the goals hopefully then just like you say all the 47 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,320 Noster apps and even most of the functionality should just work in in airplane 48 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,260 mode we should work when you're offline yeah because even if you send 49 00:04:06,260 --> 00:04:09,500 saps and those kind of things if it's not saps you can still send them you can 50 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:13,580 still like depending on how you do things you can also you know again like 51 00:04:13,580 --> 00:04:18,980 there there's various ways to do this so that it still works and you build up a 52 00:04:18,980 --> 00:04:22,180 queue of actions and once you're online again it just gets all broadcasted and 53 00:04:22,180 --> 00:04:27,420 everything happens yeah and I think no matter what the all the apps should just 54 00:04:27,420 --> 00:04:31,300 stream everything to your local relay and then the relay will filter and like 55 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:34,100 dump everything after 48 hours or something 56 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:40,220 Citrine has it on the road map so Citrine the Android on the on phone relay the 57 00:04:40,220 --> 00:04:43,780 local Android relay yeah it's one of the next things I hope that they're 58 00:04:43,780 --> 00:04:49,060 gonna build out where automatically rebroadcast local events once you're 59 00:04:49,060 --> 00:04:53,460 online again perfect so once we have that then we have everything kind of for 60 00:04:53,460 --> 00:04:57,820 free in some sense we just need to lean into the local relay stuff more yeah 61 00:04:57,820 --> 00:05:02,020 that's that's really exciting for me because that for me was the vision of 62 00:05:02,020 --> 00:05:05,980 Noster yeah in the first place like stuff which should just work offline as 63 00:05:05,980 --> 00:05:10,660 well in some sense yeah like or on a on a on a on a local area network like on a 64 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:14,260 LAN it should just work all the same yeah kind of the toll gate idea right where 65 00:05:14,260 --> 00:05:19,740 it's just you don't need to be bridged to the wider internet necessarily you 66 00:05:19,740 --> 00:05:23,180 shouldn't be yeah you shouldn't even be aware that you're calling code offline 67 00:05:23,180 --> 00:05:27,700 exactly if if as long as you have a relay you can talk to it doesn't matter if it's 68 00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:32,020 online or not you should be good yeah yeah but tell me more about toll gate 69 00:05:32,020 --> 00:05:36,540 at the current state I'm a bit out of the loop yeah so well just a couple 70 00:05:36,540 --> 00:05:43,220 days ago during btc++ we released v0.2.0 right which is the version that we've 71 00:05:43,220 --> 00:05:48,420 been working on for way too long on getting router to router payments in all 72 00:05:48,420 --> 00:05:52,740 right so we finally so toll gates paying for other toll gates yes very 73 00:05:52,740 --> 00:05:56,860 experimental we have like two modes the default is like you're just connecting to 74 00:05:56,860 --> 00:06:00,900 one gateway and that's it and if it if it is a toll gate you start paying that 75 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:07,060 and if you're the fiat gateway like the you know connect to your ISP that's 76 00:06:07,060 --> 00:06:11,620 then it just works and the experimental one is where it searches for other 77 00:06:11,620 --> 00:06:15,100 toll gates around and we'll start paying for those connecting all right all 78 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:22,300 right nice nice how much btc++ for you good yeah I I come from the 79 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:28,780 master side I definitely feel like I know nothing about Bitcoin you come 80 00:06:28,780 --> 00:06:31,380 from the left side of the balker yeah and you're at the right side of the 81 00:06:31,380 --> 00:06:40,060 balker yes the lighting desks okay but how was the response to toll gate and 82 00:06:40,060 --> 00:06:44,220 the stuff that you guys have been working on in general good yeah most people 83 00:06:44,220 --> 00:06:48,780 all seem to have heard about it by now it's like a huge I think as a huge 84 00:06:48,780 --> 00:06:56,220 complement like we've been to the conferences this summer and yeah yeah what 85 00:06:56,220 --> 00:07:02,980 was what was the main criticism if any some people just hate you cash well 86 00:07:02,980 --> 00:07:08,820 those people can't be helped now I think yeah why not why no lightning 87 00:07:08,820 --> 00:07:13,860 payments in there I think we have some valid reasons because you have to be 88 00:07:13,860 --> 00:07:19,300 offline online always yeah but of course we can support it and like 89 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:22,820 minting e cash on the fly if you're on your phone and that's that's all coming 90 00:07:22,820 --> 00:07:28,620 yeah but that's optimizing for a captive portal experience which I don't want 91 00:07:28,620 --> 00:07:33,540 to be doing long-term because captive portals are really shitty shitty tech 92 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:38,020 in general so we just need everything to happen to the background and no one 93 00:07:38,020 --> 00:07:47,260 should ever see that it's yeah I see I see yeah what what else did you see the 94 00:07:47,260 --> 00:07:52,480 kind of excited you if anything I mean if it's mostly lighting the 95 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:58,940 developments and it's probably it's probably you know like technical protocol 96 00:07:58,940 --> 00:08:03,620 level stuff that flies over everyone's head but anything that stood out well 97 00:08:03,620 --> 00:08:09,920 surprise still how how much talk there was about cashew all right good and a 98 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:14,660 bunch of the cashew guys were there and they're working on some really 99 00:08:14,660 --> 00:08:22,520 exciting stuff like CDK yeah making it easy also for us to you know to use 100 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:30,860 cashew yeah without having to manage wallets yeah like I do now because for 101 00:08:30,860 --> 00:08:37,240 token implementation we we used go length yeah and there was a library but it 102 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,700 didn't support offline payments because when the software starts it reaches out 103 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:45,420 to the mint immediately yeah so I had a very hacky version yeah yeah make it 104 00:08:45,420 --> 00:08:53,060 work offline tell me more about the little wallet like walley yes tell me more 105 00:08:53,060 --> 00:08:57,100 about that I managed to compile it I managed to run it I didn't start building 106 00:08:57,100 --> 00:09:01,460 on top of it yet because I was trying to find a specification that there was 107 00:09:01,460 --> 00:09:07,420 none and so my agents got confused very quickly but tell me more about it 108 00:09:07,420 --> 00:09:12,460 specification is coming yeah so walley came out last week from a conversation 109 00:09:12,460 --> 00:09:18,820 ongoing conversation from last week's with Paul and we were talking about it so 110 00:09:18,820 --> 00:09:26,380 difficult to get started with as a dev and as a user to use any app that 111 00:09:26,380 --> 00:09:31,500 uses e-cache because you need to from the dev perspective you need to build a 112 00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:36,620 wallets yeah receiving and sending capabilities yeah while all you want is 113 00:09:36,620 --> 00:09:41,300 just send a payment yeah so we wanted something that would potentially solve 114 00:09:41,300 --> 00:09:46,540 for that yeah and from the user perspective as well so you don't want to have 115 00:09:46,540 --> 00:09:49,820 to deposit money everywhere it should just take it from wherever you're right 116 00:09:49,820 --> 00:09:53,860 yeah I mean Pablo trying to do that with nip 60 nip 61 right and building right 117 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:57,780 into NDK so that every every app that uses NDK can do that and you just get 118 00:09:57,780 --> 00:10:05,060 your e-cache balance from the cloud that was kind of the first try it and your 119 00:10:05,060 --> 00:10:10,020 approach now is basically to do the same if I understood it correctly please 120 00:10:10,020 --> 00:10:13,740 correct me if I'm wrong but do this but do it in a similar way how not 121 00:10:13,740 --> 00:10:18,740 the wallet connectors it but for e-cache like for cash you yeah and have like 122 00:10:18,740 --> 00:10:23,900 cash you wallet connect exactly and then have the wallet run local instead of 123 00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:27,140 you know like you have it the lightning node you need to run it somewhere in 124 00:10:27,140 --> 00:10:33,300 a server which you still can do but the idea is it all works local so I will hit 125 00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:37,180 a button in my whatever web app I happen to have opens yeah and if you have 126 00:10:37,180 --> 00:10:41,900 many bits running on your device or something the wallet yeah or Wally in your 127 00:10:41,900 --> 00:10:46,700 case yeah so Wally will pop open for connection so there's some logic and like 128 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:53,140 doing it with a connecting with local host yeah and then there's just not very 129 00:10:53,140 --> 00:10:57,540 little user friction on just making a page to an app for awesome awesome no I 130 00:10:57,540 --> 00:10:59,980 think that's definitely the way to go I mean that's where everything is 131 00:10:59,980 --> 00:11:05,740 gravitating to as well we mentioned citrine before like a local signer yeah oh no 132 00:11:05,740 --> 00:11:09,340 we did we mentioned something else what did I mention I mentioned the what's 133 00:11:09,340 --> 00:11:13,540 it citrine was it amber I'm I'm mixing things up amber amber amber is the 134 00:11:13,540 --> 00:11:17,140 signer citrine is the local relay yeah everything is there's too much stuff 135 00:11:17,140 --> 00:11:20,860 there's too too many things and too much stuff in my head yeah but anyway that's 136 00:11:20,860 --> 00:11:26,500 in both cases that's how it should work like with zero configuration basically 137 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:30,420 you should just like if there is a local relay use my local relay yeah that's 138 00:11:30,420 --> 00:11:34,540 what we want to do and and at the same with with the signer if there is a local 139 00:11:34,540 --> 00:11:38,100 signer use the local signer if I have a signer installed use that if not like 140 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:43,260 do the you know answer bunker thing whatever like those kind of things and and 141 00:11:43,260 --> 00:11:46,740 you just want to have these little components that that are special purpose 142 00:11:46,740 --> 00:11:50,580 that do one thing and do it really well and make it super easy like frictionless 143 00:11:50,580 --> 00:11:55,300 to connect them yeah that's the idea right yeah and it's you know what Wally the 144 00:11:55,300 --> 00:12:00,580 start of it was I created a basically proof of concept to autopay for 145 00:12:00,580 --> 00:12:05,540 tovates on Android right literally repurposed the same app to become Wally 146 00:12:05,540 --> 00:12:09,220 and it's desktop first now but it's perfect does compile for Android I think 147 00:12:09,220 --> 00:12:14,700 well law tells me it compiles for Android yeah of course it compiles for Android 148 00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:19,340 I mean all the primitives are there and we can we can do it and it kind of grows 149 00:12:19,340 --> 00:12:22,660 into okay let's make it a wallet first and then the autopay for tovates I can 150 00:12:22,660 --> 00:12:33,060 nice add on and then there's the guy behind OTRTA he put it in to pay for LLM 151 00:12:33,060 --> 00:12:39,180 nice nice using using the casual connect and we can add other basic stuff 152 00:12:39,180 --> 00:12:43,100 like a very simple relay very simple blossom server and maybe a simple 153 00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:47,620 signer that is very bare bones and then if you want anything more specialized 154 00:12:47,620 --> 00:12:51,860 you can like swap it out for whatever you have awesome but I think it would be 155 00:12:51,860 --> 00:12:55,140 nice to at least have one app was like if you install Wally you're good to go 156 00:12:55,140 --> 00:12:59,220 with everything Noster and have interesting that's the vision okay I have a 157 00:12:59,220 --> 00:13:02,580 similar vision but for you know start nine umbrella those kind of things just 158 00:13:02,580 --> 00:13:07,620 yeah just a one click install I want to have a relay I want to have a blossom 159 00:13:07,620 --> 00:13:12,620 server I want to have a mint I want to have like the the health pacemaker thing 160 00:13:12,620 --> 00:13:16,860 that we we talked about that that takes care of my notes and rebroadcasts them 161 00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:21,220 as appropriate and takes care of my blobs and make sure there applies to most 162 00:13:21,220 --> 00:13:27,540 more to developers than end users power users I would say I don't see myself as 163 00:13:27,540 --> 00:13:33,740 a developer I see myself as a power user basically yeah but I think it's 164 00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:38,720 probably still to yeah I have an aim but but I we have a bunch of people that 165 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,340 would actually install that and run that on their start nights and on their 166 00:13:42,340 --> 00:13:45,900 umbrella so like there's there's lots of old runners and there's lots of lots 167 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:49,700 of claps that have those little misch Dedicated machines and do stuff and you 168 00:13:49,700 --> 00:13:53,260 actually have like those are capable machines like lots of storage those kind of 169 00:13:53,260 --> 00:13:57,260 things but what you want to have is a similar thing on the phone so you want to 170 00:13:57,260 --> 00:14:02,100 provide a wallet you want to provide like everything you just listed like a 171 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:06,300 signer and everything local on device yeah and not they don't have to be very 172 00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:11,660 good now if you want a better relay you should be able to disable and just 173 00:14:11,660 --> 00:14:16,540 proxy it to sit down and then for every web app there is a default port on the 174 00:14:16,540 --> 00:14:23,020 computer that you can reach to talk to this thing yeah to connect to casual 175 00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:28,780 connect yeah which is our we brand of not sure while it connects for for the 176 00:14:28,780 --> 00:14:33,780 casual it's yeah awesome no I like it I like it it's all coming together slowly 177 00:14:33,780 --> 00:14:38,740 but surely it's all coming together yeah I'm excited about the e-cash stuff I 178 00:14:38,740 --> 00:14:43,580 didn't I didn't do too much with e-cash yet like I one of my next projects is 179 00:14:43,580 --> 00:14:48,700 gonna be an e-cash thing not sure what form it will take but I we're still 180 00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:55,220 under utilizing yeah most of the things we have we're still under utilizing and 181 00:14:55,220 --> 00:15:02,020 so I'm trying to play catch up now and just build all the things that were in 182 00:15:02,020 --> 00:15:05,660 the back of my mind the last couple years and kind of scratch my own it just 183 00:15:05,660 --> 00:15:09,760 and one of them is for example I mean one of the demos I love the most is 184 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:19,340 in pub yes yes so yeah I always wanted to have that like positional audio to 185 00:15:19,340 --> 00:15:22,580 the world birds I view where you can just hang out or walk around that's on 186 00:15:22,620 --> 00:15:25,740 because once you have positional audio it's so awesome like I tell you what 187 00:15:25,740 --> 00:15:29,180 what what I want to do next for in pub because I actually I run my own 188 00:15:29,180 --> 00:15:34,860 instance yeah in pub their ggcom so okay so and a bunch of people joined and hung 189 00:15:34,860 --> 00:15:38,300 out already was really fun like it's really cool I'm gonna make this I'm gonna 190 00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:43,060 make this my hangout place and even if I have to buy code every single feature 191 00:15:43,060 --> 00:15:46,340 into it that I want I'm gonna do it I'm just gonna it's too much fun and so what 192 00:15:46,340 --> 00:15:52,100 what I want to have in there is a jukebox in one of the rooms yeah and anyone the 193 00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:57,140 jukebox has an end pub and to play something you just sap the jukebox and in 194 00:15:57,140 --> 00:16:01,220 the in the sap you just put the whatever the YouTube link or the name of the 195 00:16:01,220 --> 00:16:04,260 song or whatever yeah and it's just gonna play it and it's gonna be like I don't 196 00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:07,780 know like 200 sets to play something or whatever and it's just gonna play in the 197 00:16:07,780 --> 00:16:11,980 world you know and it's gonna announce it on us that you know that it's gonna 198 00:16:11,980 --> 00:16:16,780 play it and so on like it's you can make this a thing and it's literally the 199 00:16:16,780 --> 00:16:20,380 original idea of a jukebox like it's you have to put in a coin to play a song 200 00:16:20,380 --> 00:16:25,500 yeah and the nice thing about the the way that that in pub is built is that not 201 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:29,580 only have you to put multiple rooms and positional audio you can you can like 202 00:16:29,580 --> 00:16:32,540 the jukebox will be in one corner and you actually have to walk up to the 203 00:16:32,540 --> 00:16:37,660 jukebox to yeah you know like it's like in the real world and and so there's 204 00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:41,220 all these little things that's a very stupid example I mean the more obvious 205 00:16:41,220 --> 00:16:46,260 examples are what paper queue are doing and what the routes are guys are doing 206 00:16:46,420 --> 00:16:50,740 where it's just we want to move away from subscription hell where you need to 207 00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:53,940 have a monthly subscription subscription for everything and the way to do it is 208 00:16:53,940 --> 00:16:59,940 to attach e-cash to your requests and to pay just with e-cash directly like if I 209 00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:03,780 want to have a bottle of water at the corner store there in front I don't need 210 00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:08,900 a monthly subscription I just go I give them you know a couple bucks well many 211 00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:12,660 people are trying to build it out to build gates and others you know like monthly 212 00:17:12,660 --> 00:17:18,180 subscription for everything but anyway so what what are you excited to to build 213 00:17:18,180 --> 00:17:22,020 with with with with with e-cash what do you have I just told you my jukebox 214 00:17:22,020 --> 00:17:27,060 idea I really want to build that you have something like that as well well 215 00:17:27,060 --> 00:17:33,780 to get is my jukebox pay to keep playing fair enough I really want yeah I really 216 00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:40,660 want the auto payments for for to get to go and also to get have its own 217 00:17:40,660 --> 00:17:44,500 networks yeah where you can just connect all your normal devices and it pays on 218 00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:50,100 your behalf to yeah any upstream anything in general the networking stuff I 219 00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:56,100 think is is very interesting yeah talk to me more about that like no DNS was a 220 00:17:56,100 --> 00:18:02,260 recurring theme this cohort like basically trying to get rid of DNS trying to 221 00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:06,100 fix the one point off the internet that's still terribly centralized in 222 00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:11,940 broke in some sense yeah yeah I think the last last year already 223 00:18:11,940 --> 00:18:18,260 set three worked on like a nip proposal it's like let's what if someone self 224 00:18:18,260 --> 00:18:24,020 announces on Austria what their IP is connected to their endpub basically yeah 225 00:18:24,020 --> 00:18:31,060 but the the problem with that was like I included the like now retrospect 226 00:18:31,060 --> 00:18:36,580 you know in retrospect as I included the protocol and all kinds of other stuff 227 00:18:36,580 --> 00:18:44,980 that was not needed well there were some posts I read on someone DNS for 228 00:18:44,980 --> 00:18:51,060 sats he posted about the doing SSL certificates over 229 00:18:51,060 --> 00:18:55,940 in Austria okay and he used a similar approach and then it suddenly clicked as 230 00:18:55,940 --> 00:19:00,100 like oh we need just the traditional DNS records there's nothing wrong with 231 00:19:00,100 --> 00:19:06,020 those on austere and then you can just do backwards compatible in a 232 00:19:06,020 --> 00:19:10,980 backwards compatible way you can still use everything that's good about DNS 233 00:19:10,980 --> 00:19:17,300 without the centralizing the centralized authority you just don't need to be 234 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:23,540 part of the cabal that runs the root key ceremonies and all those kind of 235 00:19:23,540 --> 00:19:28,580 things yeah just kind of run your own DNS server and just do all those things 236 00:19:28,580 --> 00:19:33,940 without asking for permission yeah and the trick is like domain name resolution is 237 00:19:34,740 --> 00:19:39,220 quite simple you go out to a web server so some web server on a random IP 238 00:19:39,220 --> 00:19:43,620 like cloud player google you ask like what's this website and gives you back an IP 239 00:19:43,620 --> 00:19:47,300 yeah well you can do that on your own computer too and it's quite easy to configure 240 00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:52,420 actually yeah and I mean that's why that's why stuff like pie hole works and 241 00:19:52,420 --> 00:19:56,740 those kind of things and blocking on a DNS level right you have your own DNS server 242 00:19:56,820 --> 00:20:03,060 in your local network and if something tries to connect to a known 243 00:20:03,060 --> 00:20:09,380 ad network it's just kind of yeah respond with like this IP doesn't exist exactly and 244 00:20:09,380 --> 00:20:13,620 so a pie hole would be perfectly fine running no DNS to resolve mpubs 245 00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:20,180 and since you resolve it yourself it doesn't matter which extension you use we just picked 246 00:20:20,180 --> 00:20:26,260 .master but it could be anyone of them great extension yeah so we stick with that for now 247 00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:34,580 but the more tricky thing is the certificates because that's baked into the application layer a lot 248 00:20:34,580 --> 00:20:41,300 yeah yeah the browsers are really anal about certificates and their authenticity 249 00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:46,820 exactly so it's it's often not even enough to trust it on the system level the browser will 250 00:20:46,820 --> 00:20:52,740 still reject it yeah because it looks at the you know the higher powers that decide what is 251 00:20:52,740 --> 00:21:00,340 secure and what is not yeah even though a self-scientific it is perfectly secure yeah but you need to 252 00:21:00,340 --> 00:21:05,220 share it in a way I mean have up until now in the browser's defense the browser tries to 253 00:21:06,340 --> 00:21:12,820 protect you and tries to you know like but we want to go the opposite route we want to allow 254 00:21:12,820 --> 00:21:20,740 users to shoot themselves in the foot if they want to yes but also there is if you're if you're 255 00:21:20,740 --> 00:21:26,580 group if you if you're a social network if you're trusted people are so bad that they try to scam 256 00:21:26,580 --> 00:21:31,300 you with you know like then you should be allowed to yeah that's my point yeah yeah if you decide 257 00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:37,140 to hang out with this npub you you trust this npub and send you a certificate and yeah and then 258 00:21:37,220 --> 00:21:43,860 malware opens on your computer yeah yeah but for the certificates of course you need some 259 00:21:43,860 --> 00:21:50,100 extra checks whether someone's not like self-signing google.com exactly yeah and I get to your 260 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:54,660 certificate store my my my general point is just the browsers aren't necessarily super evil there's 261 00:21:54,660 --> 00:22:01,380 a reason why all this stuff is in place yes it's just like for our use cases we want to do things 262 00:22:01,380 --> 00:22:06,180 differently distribution was a problem yeah you needed someone to look at to to find the thing 263 00:22:07,140 --> 00:22:11,860 and to be efficient as well not only that trust in general is a big problem like who do you trust 264 00:22:11,860 --> 00:22:18,740 and like you know my mom has no idea like who to trust to resolve the name or whatever 265 00:22:18,740 --> 00:22:24,660 and and so so it is it is a big problem and and the the easy solution is always to refer to a 266 00:22:24,660 --> 00:22:30,980 central authority which is exactly what DNS does or ask around that's what we're doing yeah 267 00:22:30,980 --> 00:22:37,540 that's what we're doing you the very human and natural approach is you you walk around in 268 00:22:37,540 --> 00:22:41,140 your group of friends and you ask multiple people and you make up your own mind that's the that's 269 00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:47,220 a very human social approach but the government the slash authoritarian approach is you have one 270 00:22:47,220 --> 00:22:50,980 central authority and that's the source of truth yeah and that's kind of the difference between 271 00:22:50,980 --> 00:22:57,700 DNS and ODNS yeah fair summary yeah all right good I think I got it what 272 00:22:58,660 --> 00:23:03,860 how is it working now like I saw some demos that already worked yeah like tell me the current state 273 00:23:03,860 --> 00:23:12,420 of no DNS well it's still the same as in the demo there's there's a CLI and I saw someone working 274 00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:17,300 on a web front end to publish the DNS records nice so basically whatever you would do in Cloudflare 275 00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:23,460 you can soon do in a in a web interface for your endpub nice and just configure and accept and 276 00:23:23,860 --> 00:23:27,860 the difference will be the DNS record is not going to be pushed to Cloudflare the DNS record is 277 00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:34,340 going to be published in Austria exactly and the resolvers will when you ask for like the whole 278 00:23:34,980 --> 00:23:39,700 all the records it will also give you back a text records with the signature and the timestamp 279 00:23:40,260 --> 00:23:46,020 of the original message meaning and its same order a meaning they can you can reconstruct the 280 00:23:46,020 --> 00:23:51,860 entire Noster events nice nice just from a DNS response nice and you can verify that it's 281 00:23:51,860 --> 00:23:57,220 actually true do you nipple three the things right now nipple three open timestamps 282 00:23:57,780 --> 00:24:03,540 no no because right now if you don't then the timestamps can be faked and so to actually do this you 283 00:24:03,540 --> 00:24:08,660 would have to you do but you just need the timestamp to verify the signature to rebuild the message 284 00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:14,260 and verify the signature so if anyone if the DNS server lies you cannot reconstruct the check 285 00:24:14,260 --> 00:24:21,940 the signature it's basically a different format the DNS response is basically a different format 286 00:24:21,940 --> 00:24:31,620 of returning the entire Noster events okay but the usually the problem with this is like I can 287 00:24:31,620 --> 00:24:36,020 publish an event that has a timestamp in the future yeah far in the future and that will 288 00:24:36,020 --> 00:24:41,140 perpetually override events that come after me you know what I mean yeah okay but that's 289 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:47,220 yeah fair that's kind of the problem of the person publishing that that is an issue and 290 00:24:47,220 --> 00:24:53,380 and and that's why that's why there is no archaeology on data yeah pre Bitcoin doing archaeology on 291 00:24:53,380 --> 00:25:00,020 data was impossible yeah because data stands on its own you never know how old data is yeah you can't 292 00:25:00,020 --> 00:25:04,180 know but Bitcoin fixes this of course Bitcoin fixes this because we have the time chain and what 293 00:25:04,180 --> 00:25:11,540 nipple nipple 3 does is it it provides a very easy very cheap way to to have a proof of publication 294 00:25:11,540 --> 00:25:17,940 a proof of existence yeah and for what you described to me looks like a natural fit like if you 295 00:25:17,940 --> 00:25:22,580 if you what you described is like a chain of events basically that updates a certain record that 296 00:25:22,580 --> 00:25:28,180 describes a certain that once one he has all the records so what do you mean there's all the records 297 00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:33,460 yeah you just update the whole thing we're back on lists again it's like a following list secretly list 298 00:25:34,740 --> 00:25:40,500 um yeah it's just a record tags you heard my rant on lists right yes there's a reason why all the 299 00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:45,220 clients that do the list wrong new will nuke your following list yeah yeah so if one DNS client 300 00:25:45,220 --> 00:25:51,300 does this list wrong it will nuke the whole thing yes that's but it's I would reconsider that 301 00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:56,020 design choice well I think you get into speed issues see I've got that wrong if you introduce many 302 00:25:56,020 --> 00:26:02,500 events okay because DNS lookups need to be fast because otherwise everything slows down by a lot 303 00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:10,740 well I'll let you guys figure it out I said my piece okay but something something to consider 304 00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:14,580 yeah like that's one thing that's that we have and had for a long time or open time 305 00:26:14,580 --> 00:26:20,980 sometimes on nipple 3 we had for a long long time and still insanely underutilized like I think 306 00:26:20,980 --> 00:26:26,820 we should we should use it for way more stuff because what it allows you is to build up 307 00:26:26,820 --> 00:26:32,500 indisputable history over time and for example for like profile realness like are you a real 308 00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:38,580 n pop on noster we don't use it yet and you could just like periodically once a day nipple 3 309 00:26:38,580 --> 00:26:44,500 something and then you have indisputable proof that's like impossible to fake yeah that this profile 310 00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:48,900 existed at least for like three years yeah because timestamps can always be faked but this stuff 311 00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:53,780 cannot be faked true and so that's that's that's kind of my overall point like let's let's use 312 00:26:53,780 --> 00:27:00,580 nipple 3 more I'm with constant constant is a big nipple 3 shell I'm too so open timestamps is great 313 00:27:00,580 --> 00:27:05,140 does it make sense for a DNS record so it changes all the time now you just need a new 314 00:27:05,140 --> 00:27:11,620 store correct you you just need the news it might be interesting for dispute resolution you might 315 00:27:11,620 --> 00:27:16,900 it might be useful to see what was it in the past if you get conflicting responses and you don't 316 00:27:16,900 --> 00:27:23,540 know who lies yeah so that's that's that would be one use but but you guys will figure it out 317 00:27:23,540 --> 00:27:32,820 like I know I'm I'm not worried yeah how does how does your approach differ from Tim 318 00:27:32,820 --> 00:27:40,820 Balma's approach he also did a DNS thing yeah inspired by no DNS right yeah I think his would be 319 00:27:40,820 --> 00:27:47,940 more of like an intermediate that can be resolved by traditional browsers like brave everyone 320 00:27:48,020 --> 00:27:54,020 who like uses a let me actually drop my shoes sorry use everyone who uses the normal DNS resolvers 321 00:27:54,020 --> 00:28:00,820 and certificates because he still uses let's encrypt and DNS servers he just does it on your 322 00:28:00,820 --> 00:28:07,380 behalf on a sub domain okay okay so you can have like you whatever n pub okay now I got it so he's 323 00:28:07,380 --> 00:28:14,420 building would we build for insight he's building the np.pro version yeah you know the difference 324 00:28:14,420 --> 00:28:21,140 between inside the np.pro np.pro just puts everything on the one domain basically and inside 325 00:28:21,140 --> 00:28:27,460 is just you have to find your gateway yeah yeah so similar difference okay he's just like a DNS 326 00:28:27,460 --> 00:28:34,820 gateway yeah he will just add records on your behalf I see I see okay okay I got it all right so it 327 00:28:34,820 --> 00:28:39,700 doesn't remove the trust relations yeah yeah no he's really excited about it he he keeps hammering 328 00:28:39,780 --> 00:28:46,420 on it and and he just because he just yeah he just posted something where it's like he wish he 329 00:28:46,420 --> 00:28:56,100 he could be part of demo day and like someone please run this command all right yeah let's see 330 00:28:56,100 --> 00:29:04,900 how all this goes like it would be awesome to rely on DNS less yeah like right now if someone really 331 00:29:05,060 --> 00:29:10,900 like if we see it all the time in authoritarian regimes and so on like the first thing if they 332 00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:17,380 want to mess with the internet is like you know let's shut down DNS and then like most people are 333 00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:23,620 just out of connection connectivity and this kind of hopefully help fix that in the long run so 334 00:29:23,620 --> 00:29:29,700 that's that's that's division right yeah and I think that was part of my captain week talk is 335 00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:37,700 that you know nostrils organic organic tech yeah in the sense that I think the way data will flow 336 00:29:38,340 --> 00:29:43,700 through nostril you know the means of nostril blossom is that it will flow more naturally instead 337 00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:47,940 of like the going out and fetch going out and coming back going out and coming back like we do 338 00:29:47,940 --> 00:29:52,820 now yeah if you visit amazon.com you might be doing a round trip to from Europe to the US like 339 00:29:52,820 --> 00:29:58,580 20 times yeah that doesn't make sense and since we have the signed data you can just pull it 340 00:29:58,580 --> 00:30:03,620 once local and everyone around you should be able to use that yeah and I think this is like one 341 00:30:03,620 --> 00:30:10,260 of the things needed to to make that work because the more of these solutions you have the less you 342 00:30:10,260 --> 00:30:18,020 need to do that going out to fetch and getting stuff and so if we have DNS solved then you would have 343 00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:24,580 to work on IP addresses to you know be able to get everything local and then it doesn't matter if 344 00:30:24,580 --> 00:30:29,060 your connection gets severed you can still reach everything yeah so like from a resiliency perspective 345 00:30:30,020 --> 00:30:35,220 that's that's incredibly important yeah I talked with hazard a bunch about this and and 346 00:30:39,540 --> 00:30:45,540 it's really strange that the internet evolved in that way and we're now back to basically having 347 00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:50,580 mainframes and thin clients yeah we don't even have personal computers anymore it's basically like 348 00:30:50,580 --> 00:30:55,540 you have a browser for all intents and purposes and everything is on the server yeah and if you're 349 00:30:55,540 --> 00:31:00,580 offline you're offline nothing works yeah and it doesn't matter if you use a native app or whatever 350 00:31:00,580 --> 00:31:04,820 it's true for absolutely everything that people use like it's true for Instagram it's true for 351 00:31:04,820 --> 00:31:10,100 Facebook it's true for Google it's true for everything yeah and kind of the the vision we 352 00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:14,180 discussed and how it should work on the nostril side is like you use nostril all the time for all 353 00:31:14,180 --> 00:31:19,060 the things yeah like just your regular nostril line let's say you use amethyst or what have you 354 00:31:19,060 --> 00:31:23,060 and and and to be fair like we're not the only people talking about this and building this out 355 00:31:23,060 --> 00:31:27,460 that's also the vision that will have for nostril DB and note that can't so on where it's just like 356 00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:31,140 everything is a nostril DB and you just use everything and if you're in flight mode it doesn't 357 00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:36,340 matter you just can still query the local DB yeah so the same idea basically just what what we 358 00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:40,020 what we want to build out is just like have everything be realized and speak the same language and 359 00:31:40,020 --> 00:31:46,580 there shouldn't be a difference like there shouldn't be a there shouldn't be a like if offline then DB if 360 00:31:46,580 --> 00:31:54,020 yeah if online then relays it's just like it should all be relays yeah and and so so hasn't a 361 00:31:54,020 --> 00:31:59,060 nice talk about this a lot let's just maybe wait a little bit yeah and because it should be the 362 00:31:59,060 --> 00:32:03,140 same across the stack it should be the same for relays it should be the same for for blossom service 363 00:32:03,140 --> 00:32:07,780 it should be the same for all this stuff yeah and just the the the neat side effect of all of that 364 00:32:07,780 --> 00:32:13,700 is just by your pattern of usage the right data will accumulate in the right places the right 365 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:18,660 data will accumulate because here usually like most of the time you're going to pull out your phone 366 00:32:18,660 --> 00:32:23,540 and you want to look at something that you already looked at or or show someone you know like a 367 00:32:23,540 --> 00:32:30,820 little thing that you saw no but but you got what I mean it's like if you're literally in flight mode 368 00:32:30,820 --> 00:32:36,900 if you're literally entering a plane yeah and you use nostril like the couple hours before I didn't 369 00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:42,740 see my whole timeline I didn't you know like I just want to pull it up and want to maybe 370 00:32:42,740 --> 00:32:47,860 interact with some things maybe read some things reply to some things yeah like some things 371 00:32:47,860 --> 00:32:52,340 accept some things and so on yeah you know read a long form make some highlights make some notes 372 00:32:52,340 --> 00:32:56,740 make some comments those kind of things and it shouldn't even matter if you're in airplane mode 373 00:32:56,740 --> 00:33:00,660 or not it shouldn't even matter if you're offline or not yeah like it really really shouldn't matter 374 00:33:00,660 --> 00:33:06,100 we have the technology already that it works I'll show you today you don't even get some secret 375 00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:12,260 alpha today and and it's it's such a shame that we didn't build this out yet it's it's it's it's 376 00:33:12,260 --> 00:33:16,500 such a shame that it doesn't exist yet because it's kind of a killer feature like make every 377 00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:21,540 nostril at work offline it it is a it is a big thing I think part of it is also because 378 00:33:22,980 --> 00:33:27,780 and now I talk about like the things I'm interested in but it's a binary I think it's a binary 379 00:33:27,780 --> 00:33:35,700 because the the local and off like offline online is such a binary now even though you have you 380 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:40,660 know local IP address etc if you you know want to get something from around you you need to like 381 00:33:40,660 --> 00:33:48,100 know the network I think if we solve that you get a gradient from offline to online instead of 382 00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:53,780 just this binary so now you need to design for this binary and I think that's what makes it harder 383 00:33:53,780 --> 00:34:02,260 so if you if we have a system um it's hinting at like n-pub you know n-pub based uh routing is 384 00:34:03,060 --> 00:34:07,780 then it becomes a gradients like you might be able to reach some nodes around you 385 00:34:07,780 --> 00:34:13,380 yeah without needing to know about netting and like having to reach public IP addresses 386 00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:19,380 yeah yeah yeah you're you're you're on the network stack now you can't reach anything other than 387 00:34:19,380 --> 00:34:25,300 for sure your local device yeah or the internet like or far away outside of your country basically 388 00:34:26,420 --> 00:34:31,700 that's the true choice that you have no realistically yeah yeah sure for on on the high level 389 00:34:31,700 --> 00:34:35,300 not so perspective it shouldn't even matter because also like that was always true for a 390 00:34:35,300 --> 00:34:40,100 master on the relay side if a relay goes offline it shouldn't matter yeah and we we saw that 391 00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:44,100 actually practically that's true and and I always bring up this example because it's such such a 392 00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:49,220 great example the diamond's relay is one of the biggest relays and we'll wipe it multiple times 393 00:34:49,220 --> 00:34:54,500 in the last one and a half years alone you know yeah no one cares it doesn't matter and so relays can 394 00:34:54,500 --> 00:34:59,860 go in and out of existence just like Bitcoin Bitcoin nodes can go in and out of existence and from an 395 00:34:59,860 --> 00:35:03,860 overall systems perspective nothing should that should matter nothing should happen users shouldn't 396 00:35:03,860 --> 00:35:08,020 even feel the difference basically and that's true we know that it's true because we have multiple 397 00:35:08,020 --> 00:35:16,180 data points where big relays went offline and got wiped and so yeah and so so from a very like 398 00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:21,540 going like five levels higher than than what you discussed on on the network stack 399 00:35:21,860 --> 00:35:27,460 just adding local relays to the mix or even like quasi local relays like relays in the same Wi-Fi 400 00:35:28,020 --> 00:35:33,700 like community relays it doesn't even matter if you're connected to the wider world if you can 401 00:35:33,700 --> 00:35:38,180 reach the relay it's just all the same and those that can also go in and out of existence right 402 00:35:38,180 --> 00:35:44,180 it's like when I'm in my like and and and to be fair many things that we have already 403 00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:51,220 from the from the legacy internet stack work like this already you're you're your google photos 404 00:35:51,220 --> 00:35:58,020 uploads or your apple cloud uploads most of the time the setting defaults to if you are in specific 405 00:35:58,020 --> 00:36:02,900 Wi-Fi so if you're in a wife in an unmetered Wi-Fi yeah then upload all the heavy stuff yeah exactly 406 00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:07,540 you know what I mean it's the same idea where it's just like if if you're in the home network you 407 00:36:07,540 --> 00:36:13,460 will be able to connect to your home relay to your LAN relay and then just sync all the things 408 00:36:13,460 --> 00:36:19,060 there like push all the stuff there re-broadcast it to those relays and so on exactly and and I think 409 00:36:19,060 --> 00:36:24,820 it should be relatively easy in the sense that we have most of the puzzle pieces already yeah 410 00:36:24,820 --> 00:36:29,060 and I'm not I'm specifically not talking about no DNS at the low level networks that can so 411 00:36:29,060 --> 00:36:32,660 no you can know a lot of it already I know I know that's that's that's a different conversation 412 00:36:32,660 --> 00:36:37,140 and more tricky and so on but but but just just I really want to make it push for 413 00:36:38,660 --> 00:36:44,500 for local relays and like home run relays that's why I really also I I I I imagine the same things 414 00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:48,900 every time I'm gonna match it again build the things not to relay tray for example it's great 415 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:54,180 not to relay trays fantastic if you want to run a relay on your machine pack catch it nicely 416 00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:59,140 let me run it on umbrella let me run it on start nine let me one click install it on all the things 417 00:37:00,420 --> 00:37:07,380 same for all the other relay things and the blossom things and the mince and who is gonna run the mince 418 00:37:07,380 --> 00:37:13,620 everyone have their own mince yeah why not make it super easy for people to run mince 419 00:37:13,620 --> 00:37:18,500 yeah I make it super easy for people to earn some sets they're gonna run it yeah 420 00:37:19,700 --> 00:37:23,860 there's there's always some crazy russian guy that's gonna run the biggest mince and just earn like 421 00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:32,500 you know five cents a day yeah I think now yeah especially if if I look at how much money 422 00:37:33,780 --> 00:37:39,940 real sets we lose in e-cash all the time you cycle you cycle the keys there's money there's 423 00:37:39,940 --> 00:37:44,100 money to be made here people yes someone can if it's your mint you can scoop up the sats 424 00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:48,180 potentially yeah don't think about please just think about all the change people drop everywhere 425 00:37:48,180 --> 00:37:58,260 exactly yeah like several euros at once multiple times so many bits is gonna be happy when they 426 00:37:58,260 --> 00:38:05,700 cycle but I I don't want to be the you know old man the angry at at clouds or or or telling kids 427 00:38:05,700 --> 00:38:10,580 to get off my lawn it's actually we're in a great spot and all this stuff is actually being built out 428 00:38:10,580 --> 00:38:14,740 and coming together quite nicely yeah like just the amount of development that happened on the 429 00:38:14,740 --> 00:38:21,220 e-cash front is like amazing just just cash you alone what what was shipped there just in the 430 00:38:21,220 --> 00:38:25,940 last one and a half two years it's like it's insane and I feel like it's accelerating now that people 431 00:38:26,580 --> 00:38:31,380 yeah like you you can you can know you can pay your LLM models with e-cash and build more e-cash on 432 00:38:31,380 --> 00:38:37,380 top of that with and with that you can buy code more stuff and make it easier for everyone try 433 00:38:37,380 --> 00:38:44,420 doing all that shit with databases and username passwords and like poor security on on those with 434 00:38:44,420 --> 00:38:49,060 yeah not saying you can't do poor security with with keys but it's it's a lot easier to make a 435 00:38:49,060 --> 00:38:55,540 secure app yeah absolutely tell me about your current bike coding setup and what you learned 436 00:38:55,540 --> 00:39:02,660 discord last six weeks intense bike coding sessions all day every day what changed for you 437 00:39:02,660 --> 00:39:07,060 in terms of your setup what are what are some things that you learned what are some things that you 438 00:39:07,060 --> 00:39:12,500 maybe tweaked a little bit I put some effort into using some more mcp's 439 00:39:14,580 --> 00:39:18,340 pointing it being getting better at pointing at a documentation like the 440 00:39:19,140 --> 00:39:24,740 that's getting getting the right getting the right context yeah pretty much what did you use for 441 00:39:24,740 --> 00:39:30,580 the mcp servers and mcp tools the code snippets like I think that's that's a big one 442 00:39:31,220 --> 00:39:37,220 because hazard with applesauce publishes the code snippets and that just makes it a hundred 443 00:39:37,220 --> 00:39:43,620 times better to develop he should publish more though I already I have bullied him because the 444 00:39:43,620 --> 00:39:48,260 thing I'm gonna demo today I build on applesauce as well yeah and now that I have to search I can 445 00:39:48,260 --> 00:39:53,540 just do like is code by hazard and I will get all the snippets and I can just feed everything in 446 00:39:53,540 --> 00:39:58,020 there's not that many snippets and I've lost up publishing snippets as well I'm not sure what 447 00:39:58,020 --> 00:40:04,020 happened but but in general yeah that's also something we have and we should utilize more but how 448 00:40:04,020 --> 00:40:10,180 how is your setup looking are you using root code or yeah use root code mostly with cloud yeah 449 00:40:10,180 --> 00:40:17,620 I'm spending spending too much money yeah yeah it's a all three I treat as a cheap employee yeah you 450 00:40:17,620 --> 00:40:22,260 use like 4.5 came out I don't know when it was a week or two ago or something yeah just switch to it 451 00:40:22,260 --> 00:40:28,420 yesterday yeah yeah yeah it's very agreeable actually it's I feel like I feel like they made it 452 00:40:28,420 --> 00:40:33,620 more agreeable where I you know I would say something I could rile it up and get started revolution 453 00:40:33,620 --> 00:40:39,300 together yeah let's go yeah that's an experience that I did that's like claiming module oh I saw 454 00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:43,780 I saw the I saw the the screenshot I was like a fuck I piece we don't want that piece I'm like yeah 455 00:40:43,860 --> 00:40:48,580 that's right fuck I piece yeah and then it even added like in all the logging like skull emojis yeah 456 00:40:48,580 --> 00:40:56,980 fuck I think let's go yeah and so so you have a what do you use to pull in the code snippets 457 00:40:59,060 --> 00:41:05,380 I first had not sure which one I'm using now I first had Pablo's 10x tools yeah one and then 458 00:41:05,380 --> 00:41:10,180 hazard code yeah I'm amazed that someone set it up it's like I'm still I always I was convinced 459 00:41:10,180 --> 00:41:17,140 only Pablo is using 10x no it was it was possible yeah yeah all right and uh because Jesus 460 00:41:17,140 --> 00:41:22,900 also built a lot of fancy piece stuff you use something of his tool set not yet I need to put 461 00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:29,940 more put more time in it I did do an experiment like okay how does this work just made a LLM 462 00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:37,540 agent myself in one of the first weeks yeah it's actually surprisingly simple how the agents work 463 00:41:37,540 --> 00:41:42,580 it's just like a loop and they call tools and the tool can be another agent that's really what 464 00:41:42,580 --> 00:41:47,780 Ruco does yeah yeah I just thought it was way more complex than it actually turned out to be yeah 465 00:41:47,780 --> 00:41:54,660 that's what that's what uh that's what Justin showed off where like build your own build your own 466 00:41:54,660 --> 00:42:00,740 coding agent yeah that's how simple it how simple it actually is yeah so yeah if anything 467 00:42:00,740 --> 00:42:07,300 people should not be intimidated by LLM into like making their own kind of agent loops and 468 00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:13,220 experimenting with that the coding agents are one thing but I can imagine there's a dozen other 469 00:42:13,220 --> 00:42:22,020 things that would be need their own like kind of loop or orchestration that are you know geared 470 00:42:22,020 --> 00:42:27,780 towards another task just coding how far along are you in your vibe coding journey are you still 471 00:42:27,780 --> 00:42:31,860 looking at code are you still manually editing stuff sometimes or how is it looking are you still 472 00:42:31,860 --> 00:42:44,660 writing tests no I still sometimes I feel like I do look at like the methods and like which 473 00:42:44,660 --> 00:42:51,860 methods and which arguments it's using because that's usually I still feel like I'm the the 474 00:42:51,860 --> 00:42:56,900 engineering charge but it's mostly like when you first set up a project and you can kind of let 475 00:42:56,900 --> 00:43:02,820 it go mostly and then monitor it monitor it if it goes of course do you start building straight up 476 00:43:02,820 --> 00:43:08,820 or go do you go through a agent and human planning phase before planning phase yeah definitely I 477 00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:15,540 done several where I would like get everything get a bunch of markdown documents then go outside and 478 00:43:15,540 --> 00:43:21,940 just read them for a while and make like basically make notes on them okay then put it through it 479 00:43:21,940 --> 00:43:26,980 another time fine it that's the photo you posted where you were on on the beach with like a 480 00:43:26,980 --> 00:43:32,180 kind of like device is it the daylight computer yeah yeah yeah reading through through markdown 481 00:43:32,740 --> 00:43:38,260 plans exactly that's that's that's the way I want to be planning is just sitting in the sun nice 482 00:43:38,260 --> 00:43:44,180 very soon very soon you will be able to do that in a purposeful master client doing you know 483 00:43:44,180 --> 00:43:48,580 nuster native highlights and annotations there works offline hopefully so we're gonna 484 00:43:48,580 --> 00:43:58,900 improve the beach the beach UX drastically I hope beach compatible apps exactly no that's awesome 485 00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:06,020 I learned a lot like my my my stuff changed quite a bit I still have to explore some of the more 486 00:44:06,020 --> 00:44:14,980 I'm still a very naive vibe coder I don't use multi agent flows yet for example like having 487 00:44:14,980 --> 00:44:21,300 concurrent agents Justin does it and Pablo of course does it and so on and yeah I have lots of 488 00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:29,220 macros and I again I learned a lot do you feel like you're missing something still I would say yes 489 00:44:29,300 --> 00:44:39,060 in the sense of my dream would be yeah my dream would be to use wingman basically what 490 00:44:40,740 --> 00:44:48,260 what Pete built out yeah which the idea is is basically you just have your phone and you have a 491 00:44:48,260 --> 00:44:52,100 computer somewhere else that is running all the things and your your phone is the interface 492 00:44:52,180 --> 00:45:00,180 and my dream would be to not even texting just speaking yeah and just be out and about because I 493 00:45:00,180 --> 00:45:05,060 already do that but now I record voice memos for the pipeline yeah it's one directional yeah it's 494 00:45:05,060 --> 00:45:10,340 one directional and I want to the best case wingman really works really well and it's by directional 495 00:45:10,340 --> 00:45:18,660 and I just want to I just want to because right now I'm vibe coding on the side yeah so I take 496 00:45:18,660 --> 00:45:24,500 care of the kids I do work I do chores I do whatever I go shopping and I just you know a prompt 497 00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:28,020 here and there and then I let it run for five minutes and I come back and do another prompt and so 498 00:45:28,020 --> 00:45:34,900 on it's very multitasking asynchronous my workflow right now and the only downside is that I have to 499 00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:41,780 I need to have my computer with me somewhere yes and so hopefully in the future I want to have 500 00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:47,620 Paul also built something great or Paul and Justin I don't know who it was but basically 501 00:45:49,140 --> 00:45:56,260 a vibe check agent that constantly runs on your project and just make sure that you're coding 502 00:45:56,260 --> 00:46:00,980 style and all the project rules are followed like make sure that the files are not longer than 503 00:46:00,980 --> 00:46:04,820 150 lines or whatever all the lint checks pass all the tests pass all those kind of things 504 00:46:05,380 --> 00:46:11,540 and just not auto fix it exactly exactly and so that's what I want to have and again my interface 505 00:46:11,540 --> 00:46:16,900 should be I'm just wherever everything is deployed so everything is live so I can look on it 506 00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:23,300 edit on my phone and then I just speak a voice memo into the phone fix that button make it work 507 00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:27,300 in the other way like at this feature I've been thinking about I don't know like doing this and 508 00:46:27,300 --> 00:46:33,220 that and so on and just hit send 20 minutes later I look at my phone again and it's different 509 00:46:33,220 --> 00:46:37,540 but that would be my dream flow and we're very close to it we're very close to it 510 00:46:38,420 --> 00:46:42,660 yeah there's a couple more tools that need to be integrated for this to work 511 00:46:42,660 --> 00:46:46,260 Pablo's 10x can already do it because his basis is kind of or used to be the 512 00:46:46,260 --> 00:46:52,580 vieline yeah and if you I mean if I would build two or three more plugins I could probably do it 513 00:46:52,580 --> 00:46:56,820 myself as well just using the vieline yeah because all I would need to do is kick off 514 00:46:56,820 --> 00:47:00,900 root code automatically and then auto commit auto deploy which is very easy it's just auto commit 515 00:47:00,900 --> 00:47:06,900 and yeah and auto get push so we're we're we're we're almost there and but that would be kind of my 516 00:47:06,900 --> 00:47:13,860 my dream scenario which is of course very peculiar to how my life is structured yeah 517 00:47:14,660 --> 00:47:19,380 most people probably wouldn't like it I think the screen screenless part is 518 00:47:21,700 --> 00:47:27,940 something that's underutilized yeah elements I see them they do more but I see them as a 519 00:47:28,660 --> 00:47:35,140 different user interface yeah yeah even though you can do like a lot of backend stuff with it of course 520 00:47:35,700 --> 00:47:40,740 I mean Pete showed this clearly with their WhatsApp thing he built with beacon and just the 521 00:47:40,740 --> 00:47:45,220 the alarm's already interface and that's why you can add it to any chatbot like you can add you can 522 00:47:45,220 --> 00:47:50,580 implement it into any chat system as a chatbot yeah because the interface is just natural language 523 00:47:50,580 --> 00:47:54,980 and that's why the only limitation probably still to have like the conversational one is just 524 00:47:54,980 --> 00:48:02,260 processing speed to do that like output natural language I don't even need it to be that responsive 525 00:48:02,260 --> 00:48:07,460 like in the sense of it doesn't have to be that quick yeah it's similar to like there is there's 526 00:48:07,460 --> 00:48:13,060 various modes of conversations that we could have as well like in the best case we have a free 527 00:48:13,060 --> 00:48:18,660 flowing instant conversation like we're having now yeah and a degradation of that is if we 528 00:48:18,660 --> 00:48:22,740 send each other voice memos yeah which people do all the time which is just like a phone call 529 00:48:22,740 --> 00:48:27,940 but there is a cronus right yeah and then the other one would be text which is most alarm interfaces 530 00:48:27,940 --> 00:48:32,340 are text chats now I think what I would want is basically Siri that works 531 00:48:33,380 --> 00:48:38,020 yeah yeah yeah yeah who wouldn't want that yeah but it's a very specific 532 00:48:38,020 --> 00:48:42,820 no I think we're very very close to that yeah and that's where I think probably no 533 00:48:43,380 --> 00:48:50,660 couple more months and they're fast enough to do that do you use any like especially trained models 534 00:48:50,660 --> 00:48:55,860 to your liking like for your I don't know like vocabulary or for your past work incorporating 535 00:48:55,860 --> 00:49:01,220 those kind of things um I haven't strung them together enough yet that's what I've tried to do 536 00:49:01,220 --> 00:49:07,220 with the book of sand demo where you know I didn't see that unfortunately I got basically automating 537 00:49:07,220 --> 00:49:13,860 that what you talked about with the the daylight computer to leave notes as just text or voice 538 00:49:13,860 --> 00:49:19,620 memos actually on the document in city and yeah and then the LLM picking that up like hitting 539 00:49:19,620 --> 00:49:24,420 button picking that up going to work for but then more freeform then the pipeline is yeah and I don't 540 00:49:24,420 --> 00:49:29,460 know if it will still because it's too maybe too flexible yeah it's the right idea I do that now 541 00:49:30,340 --> 00:49:34,340 as you do like manually more or less like I I I will have certain ideas and so on and I've 542 00:49:34,340 --> 00:49:39,380 write the prompts down yeah or I speak them and then I just I I have to go back and like copy and 543 00:49:39,380 --> 00:49:46,100 paste them manually and I just fill up the queue yeah and what I did is like add the uh basically 544 00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:52,260 a system from the agents define them in markdown inside the vault as well so you can add agents on the 545 00:49:52,260 --> 00:49:58,100 fly oh have a triage agent just selects the best one to do the task nice and experiment is like 546 00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:04,500 okay how how effective would that be to manage a project or shopping lists and yeah yeah but it 547 00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:09,380 did veer off a little bit too much and I don't really have a good environment to host it okay okay 548 00:50:09,380 --> 00:50:14,340 so I I need to get back to that yeah I see I see I see that's what I like about the 549 00:50:14,340 --> 00:50:19,140 pipeline so much you don't need an environment to host it just runs on your machine yeah well my 550 00:50:19,140 --> 00:50:23,460 issue is like I have my laptop with me when I'm on the beach reviewing my documents yeah yeah that's 551 00:50:23,460 --> 00:50:31,780 an issue it's very it's very peculiar for my my life setup because I I have my laptop you know like 552 00:50:31,780 --> 00:50:38,900 standing somewhere sitting in the office and it's just always online and so or like the yeah that's 553 00:50:39,860 --> 00:50:46,020 again like you know you have to but that's the nice thing about all the tools we have now 554 00:50:46,020 --> 00:50:52,100 and the vibe coding capabilities that we have you can actually purpose build the things exactly how 555 00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:58,180 you want to have them and exactly how they how they how you how you need them and how you would 556 00:50:58,180 --> 00:51:03,860 build it out yeah and if you see something nice from from someone else you can just like you know 557 00:51:03,860 --> 00:51:09,300 drag come the thing drag it into reference folder and say do that plus this exactly and then you 558 00:51:09,300 --> 00:51:16,820 know now kiss yeah that's that's how ants came to be how the search came about I basically took 559 00:51:17,380 --> 00:51:25,860 n pub dot world plus noster dot band yeah that that was it that was the main idea how software is 560 00:51:25,860 --> 00:51:32,740 gonna evolve into the future it's crossbreed yeah basically evolution yeah I don't think I don't 561 00:51:32,740 --> 00:51:39,620 think merging back into an original repo is going to be commonplace interesting interesting idea yeah 562 00:51:40,900 --> 00:51:46,260 I do agree for certain things like for for for not everything like some you know primitives 563 00:51:47,780 --> 00:51:53,300 you'll probably have humans involved all the time but for for these kind of apps I think it's just 564 00:51:53,300 --> 00:51:58,740 like yeah it's to combine especially on the noster side the way I see it every client should be 565 00:51:58,740 --> 00:52:05,540 like a lens on the nosterverse yeah I'm not even sure if that term was coined before probably 566 00:52:05,540 --> 00:52:10,580 but I'm just going to use it a bunch now because I kind of I had this shower thought like how I should 567 00:52:10,580 --> 00:52:16,500 name a certain button yeah and then it came to me it should be called like you want to explore 568 00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:21,460 the whole nosterverse because global isn't true yeah right yeah it's like it's like whatever relays 569 00:52:21,460 --> 00:52:25,140 you're going to end it's on its part like there's no global always always that will always 570 00:52:25,140 --> 00:52:31,300 be throwing noster there is no global but there is a nosterverse yes and so so time run at different 571 00:52:31,300 --> 00:52:40,660 speeds too well again back to time stamps can it can be faked so so yes I guess but every client 572 00:52:40,660 --> 00:52:46,980 should be a different lens on the nosterverse so so there might you might have a client that's 573 00:52:47,700 --> 00:52:51,220 you know like Twitter like and then you know how it's going to look like you might have a client 574 00:52:51,220 --> 00:52:55,540 that's like IMDB like and it's just for movie reviews and that's how it's going to look like 575 00:52:55,540 --> 00:53:00,820 you might have a client that's just for long form which we I mean we have all that obviously already 576 00:53:00,820 --> 00:53:05,380 I think I think anything that comes like if you talk about you know the dream of the metaverse 577 00:53:06,740 --> 00:53:11,540 that people have had forever I think noster probably the thing that comes closest to it yeah 578 00:53:11,540 --> 00:53:17,700 because you can make input in pub and probably anyone can latch onto it yeah you can very easily pull 579 00:53:17,700 --> 00:53:23,780 in certain data types right like we have this we have this this massive wealth of signed data 580 00:53:23,780 --> 00:53:29,140 in noster now and more is produced like every second of every day yeah and it's it's right now it's 581 00:53:29,140 --> 00:53:36,980 just like mostly you know tweets so to speak and but but this will increase as more more clients 582 00:53:36,980 --> 00:53:42,580 the more use cases are being built out we're still in the phone book on the internet phase yeah 583 00:53:42,660 --> 00:53:48,100 yeah yeah pretty much pretty much and what I think is so nice is that all these little clients 584 00:53:48,100 --> 00:53:56,260 because we we like I love for example that your app settings are stored on noster and you just 585 00:53:56,260 --> 00:54:01,860 log in and the app looks exactly like you have it set up yeah that's so awesome it's like the 586 00:54:02,660 --> 00:54:06,500 the Chromebook had this idea as well right you like you throw away your computer you get a new 587 00:54:06,500 --> 00:54:11,460 one you log in and everything is exactly how you want it to to to be and so we have the same now 588 00:54:12,180 --> 00:54:21,700 just on like without the you know omniscient omnipresent hell 9000 like overlord that is Google 589 00:54:21,700 --> 00:54:28,660 so the skin less faces exactly exactly so so that's awesome we're like you know like we're more 590 00:54:28,660 --> 00:54:34,260 than halfway there so I'm very bullish on all that it's just like I keep coming back to the 591 00:54:34,260 --> 00:54:39,140 same mantra that the future is already here basically we just have a lot of building to do 592 00:54:39,140 --> 00:54:43,060 which is it's first of all it's not evenly distributed of course like most people don't know about 593 00:54:43,060 --> 00:54:48,100 the stuff most people don't use the stuff and second of all it's still very imperfect and we're 594 00:54:48,100 --> 00:54:53,780 gonna build it out kind of you know scratching one itch at the time and there is no other way like 595 00:54:53,780 --> 00:54:59,300 you can't you can't dictate how it's gonna go you just need to bring more people in explain it 596 00:54:59,300 --> 00:55:04,100 right to them and then they will have an itch that they want to scratch and they are gonna build 597 00:55:04,100 --> 00:55:08,740 a little thing for noster and then we have the little thing and we can use it all the things that 598 00:55:08,820 --> 00:55:14,580 also are not economically viable I think you've mentioned it several times in the cohorts like 599 00:55:14,580 --> 00:55:20,020 little converter tools that you use like once every once in a while yeah it's like you you look 600 00:55:20,020 --> 00:55:25,540 up a QR generator online and it wants to sell you a QR generator you have to you have to 601 00:55:25,540 --> 00:55:32,020 watch a 50 second ad like a two-minute ad to generate a fucking car or whatever or to convert a 602 00:55:32,020 --> 00:55:36,660 JPEG into a PNG or whatever yeah I don't always have like image magic on my device 603 00:55:37,620 --> 00:55:42,260 but often I feel it's just let me pay you exactly let me pay you once I'll take your 604 00:55:42,260 --> 00:55:47,380 service and coming back coming back to the e-cache thing that's like I mean it's a chicken 605 00:55:47,380 --> 00:55:50,660 act problem like most people don't have e-cache at most people don't have well it's most people 606 00:55:50,660 --> 00:55:55,140 don't even have Bitcoin yet you know like it's like insane but but just for us I would build this 607 00:55:55,140 --> 00:56:02,420 for myself yeah and I would charge myself 21 sets for every fucking image I want to convert 608 00:56:02,420 --> 00:56:08,180 or the thing the little things I need to do all the time and and like we're gonna get there 609 00:56:08,180 --> 00:56:13,300 and in the best case those things are like basically noster bots or whatever you know like very 610 00:56:13,300 --> 00:56:19,380 very easy to use very easy interfaces all those kind of things and you just you shouldn't even 611 00:56:19,380 --> 00:56:25,220 manually have to pay them or accept them it's just gonna be I have I have spending money in my 612 00:56:26,260 --> 00:56:30,340 either in my nostal wallet connector in my cashier wallet connector in my nip 60 wallet or 613 00:56:30,340 --> 00:56:36,020 wherever I money somewhere yeah and just pay the thing and there here is your allowance for 614 00:56:36,020 --> 00:56:41,060 stupid little tools it's like five bucks a day I don't care yeah and just just go and we're gonna 615 00:56:41,060 --> 00:56:46,900 get there like it's it's gonna take a little should we walk up it's gonna be probably horrible horrible 616 00:56:46,900 --> 00:56:53,780 for audio quality because we're gonna have fun tough no no it's like but but it's a very nice view 617 00:56:53,780 --> 00:57:00,100 on top so okay I hope my microphone's not bouncing too much yeah that's a no one that's not the 618 00:57:00,100 --> 00:57:06,100 issue the the waves and the sirens and the you know leafflowers are the issue actually 619 00:57:07,620 --> 00:57:13,940 I haven't heard too much too much of it so far you'd be surprised yeah you'd be surprised how 620 00:57:13,940 --> 00:57:21,380 bad the audio is I think you mentioned in the last episode that leafflowers you filtered them out 621 00:57:22,020 --> 00:57:29,780 I don't know the wind gets filtered out by the microphones nicely but there's 622 00:57:29,780 --> 00:57:35,860 many other sounds that the microphones pick up like pick up more than your ears and brains 623 00:57:35,860 --> 00:57:41,860 pick up the sounds and so there there's a big difference of how it how it feels in real life and 624 00:57:41,860 --> 00:57:46,260 how it is on the recording or someone listening is very good at filtering out the voice it's just 625 00:57:46,260 --> 00:57:54,500 I mentioned this when I think I talked to Justin it's not a you have to get high quality headphones 626 00:57:54,500 --> 00:58:00,660 to listen to no solutions yeah so it's not the poor man's podcast you have to you know the 627 00:58:00,660 --> 00:58:04,820 Bitcoin rich get the nice Bose headphones or something and then you're gonna have a good time 628 00:58:04,820 --> 00:58:11,700 yeah but just listening in the car it's harder I bet there's probably things that do some good 629 00:58:11,700 --> 00:58:16,500 noise canceling if you're like a third microphone scrapped on the behind your backpack to filter out 630 00:58:16,500 --> 00:58:21,380 background noises yeah potentially potentially no but usually it's actually not that bad it's just 631 00:58:21,380 --> 00:58:26,900 time it's literally the only the only hate mail we got is about the odd quality so 632 00:58:30,580 --> 00:58:36,260 all right it's almost there it's such a nice day yeah 633 00:58:39,300 --> 00:58:45,460 so how was the whole experience for you I mean you kept in the week you are a repeat 634 00:58:46,100 --> 00:58:53,540 repeat participant repeat repeat captain him and like how was it different than the other cohorts 635 00:58:53,540 --> 00:59:00,340 and kind of what's your what's your take on sovereign engineering in general um 636 00:59:01,780 --> 00:59:06,260 I feel like the tools that have been built in the previous cohorts are coming together more 637 00:59:07,220 --> 00:59:12,500 like in coherent coherence solutions and they're being understood more as well also yeah 638 00:59:13,220 --> 00:59:21,460 you know ikash ikash and bosom are kind of de facto standards to use and well one thing I 639 00:59:21,460 --> 00:59:27,300 thought was really interesting is the mapping stuff oh yeah because all the open source map stuff 640 00:59:27,300 --> 00:59:34,900 is like it kind of sucks yeah and I really feel like it's starting to to pick up where 641 00:59:35,860 --> 00:59:42,420 um people are now starting to make maps on nostru that actually seem they look pretty nice 642 00:59:43,300 --> 00:59:49,620 and it solves the problem of any mapping app not having the data yeah of course you still need to 643 00:59:49,620 --> 00:59:55,700 build the data sets but at least you only have to do that once yeah and there is pre-existing 644 00:59:55,700 --> 01:00:00,420 data sets from open street maps and so on and the task is just to port it port it 645 01:00:01,060 --> 01:00:06,340 creates nostru events and put the tiles on blossom servers yeah because the the thing 646 01:00:07,060 --> 01:00:12,180 it makes me come back to google maps is can you hear the huffing and the puffing? 647 01:00:14,580 --> 01:00:20,660 you get from sitting behind a laughter percentage despite being on the island with mountains 648 01:00:23,060 --> 01:00:29,460 sorry I start out like what gets you back to google maps um it's the the community it's just 649 01:00:29,460 --> 01:00:34,580 the community part it is the traffic life traffic data if you want to navigate somewhere road 650 01:00:34,580 --> 01:00:41,940 closures all that yeah and um for businesses it's like the pictures show some pictures from the inside 651 01:00:41,940 --> 01:00:47,700 what does it look like what's the menu yeah very basic stuff reviews reviews me maybe not even too much 652 01:00:48,660 --> 01:00:54,260 but if you have those on nostru yeah interesting so what you're saying is the social part is what makes 653 01:00:54,260 --> 01:00:58,980 google maps yes way more useful than its alternatives yeah like open street maps open 654 01:00:58,980 --> 01:01:04,340 heavy yeah it's not like the other maps are not missing roads yeah or street numbers or 655 01:01:04,340 --> 01:01:09,940 yeah even satellite imagery all of that is there and so nostru can provide it easily yeah yeah 656 01:01:10,820 --> 01:01:16,420 yeah that's a great point maybe someone can scrape all of google maps for us and put it on us 657 01:01:17,460 --> 01:01:22,260 we just have to you know we start from sketch make them earn sets for every data package and they'll 658 01:01:22,260 --> 01:01:26,660 they'll do it yeah look the parachyp yay how a logo yes 659 01:01:30,500 --> 01:01:34,420 oh that's nice so the 21st cohort will be on the ship 660 01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:39,780 we we were talking about doing it on the crew on the cruise ship actually on the big one 661 01:01:40,340 --> 01:01:48,260 and just um develops some things on the on the you know on the open seas outside of an 662 01:01:48,260 --> 01:01:53,140 injure section i'm not even sure if that's it would work that way but just as a as a meme kind of 663 01:01:53,140 --> 01:01:59,220 that would be fun um but yeah who knows i mean that was the fifth court last day last day we 664 01:01:59,220 --> 01:02:04,020 have to we'll have to final demo day and you have a you have the time yeah i'm afraid to pull out my 665 01:02:04,020 --> 01:02:08,980 phone because otherwise the recording will stop uh two hours all right last demo day in two hours 666 01:02:08,980 --> 01:02:15,060 there about yeah so and then that's gonna be it yeah yeah fifth one in the bag so 667 01:02:15,540 --> 01:02:26,020 yeah i think i think again i have the feeling that we are on on the cusp of all the things more 668 01:02:26,020 --> 01:02:31,300 less just working and coming together i for many things we're already there like i talked about it 669 01:02:31,300 --> 01:02:39,460 i think on the on the boat actually um that if i want to check whether my phone is online or not 670 01:02:39,540 --> 01:02:45,140 i just refresh my lost client yeah and because there's so much activity going on in my feed because 671 01:02:45,140 --> 01:02:51,780 i follow like a thousand people um that like every every second something you will pop up and so 672 01:02:51,780 --> 01:02:56,500 it's the quickest way for me to check whether i'm online or not and that tells you something i 673 01:02:56,500 --> 01:02:59,940 i don't do anything else anymore like if that doesn't work if nothing new pops up i'm probably off 674 01:02:59,940 --> 01:03:05,460 line yeah and and it feels so good to not log into legacy tech anymore exactly no no two factor 675 01:03:06,100 --> 01:03:12,660 apps in the way yeah no i i i pretty much accident the the system in my daily life i don't need any 676 01:03:12,660 --> 01:03:19,220 kind of other stuff anymore nostril replaced my online life almost completely i'm still on github a lot 677 01:03:19,220 --> 01:03:24,020 but we are getting that fixed as well like it works up and other things it's getting there like 678 01:03:24,020 --> 01:03:30,660 fija frequently ported all his stuff to to nostril base git yeah since since uh you know you 679 01:03:30,740 --> 01:03:36,740 huge props to to Dan for for the grass servers which is sovereign engineering alumni yeah yeah 680 01:03:37,860 --> 01:03:42,180 no way you know the initial version still leaned on like traditional git servers and then you get 681 01:03:42,180 --> 01:03:47,620 into the identity problem and now it's full on nostril and and it works quite well yeah yeah i still 682 01:03:47,620 --> 01:03:51,940 have that ahead of me like i didn't pull the trigger yet but i i will like i i'm gonna like i 683 01:03:51,940 --> 01:03:55,620 didn't even pull the trigger on my long form stuff yet but i'm gonna do that too i'm gonna build my 684 01:03:55,620 --> 01:04:03,540 own client to do it my own tools at least but um yeah it's all coming together and like like 685 01:04:03,540 --> 01:04:07,780 piece by piece and step by step we're gonna make all this work like the payment part is obviously a 686 01:04:07,780 --> 01:04:14,580 big one like just making payments easy incredibly seamless for everyone and everything and if you 687 01:04:14,580 --> 01:04:20,180 are set up they already are like nostril connect is a great thing and it works really well and if 688 01:04:20,820 --> 01:04:26,500 if you're set up properly again like i think primal primal was a necessary step as well just 689 01:04:26,500 --> 01:04:30,340 chipping with the wallet and doing the light came with the other kind of stuff just to have people 690 01:04:30,340 --> 01:04:33,860 understand that this is where we want to land on this is how it should look and feel basically just 691 01:04:33,860 --> 01:04:41,060 one tap sap no setup basically required and and now we are very close on the pure self-hosted 692 01:04:41,060 --> 01:04:45,700 freedom tax site to have that as well and you can't just gonna play a big role and all all all 693 01:04:45,700 --> 01:04:51,380 these kind of things and and this will like the reason why i've mentioned this right after we 694 01:04:51,380 --> 01:04:56,820 talk about get and get workshop and all those kind of things is because there is a reason why 695 01:04:56,820 --> 01:05:04,180 github added the support stuff as well just patreon for developers and so on you know and but 696 01:05:04,180 --> 01:05:08,740 it's all still cucked of course you know first of all you have certain limits because everything 697 01:05:08,740 --> 01:05:14,980 runs on fiat payment rails you have to fully kyc on both sides and it's all you know like they 698 01:05:14,980 --> 01:05:19,140 take massive cuts just like patreon paid i mean i i keep pointing that out because most people don't 699 01:05:19,140 --> 01:05:24,020 know patreon takes like a 33% cut or something it's like completely insane but also 700 01:05:24,980 --> 01:05:29,060 they're not evil inherently they just they have a massive overhead yeah just with credit risks 701 01:05:29,060 --> 01:05:32,820 and kyc risk all all this kind of stuff they have to do they are stuck still at this moment in time 702 01:05:32,820 --> 01:05:38,660 i think they are still better better at the integration points but i think nostray is overtaking 703 01:05:38,660 --> 01:05:44,820 it quickly you know get get get worked up well like getting set up with stripe is so easy yeah 704 01:05:45,700 --> 01:05:52,500 and and we're not there yet but but but my i can't already taste it like we're very close we're 705 01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:57,540 very close to stuff just working and and and all the other things are being figured out with 706 01:05:58,420 --> 01:06:04,180 yeah i mean you know like you have to the trust models have to shift and that's what we 707 01:06:04,180 --> 01:06:08,900 are currently seeing where someone will have to run the mince you need to trust your mince you 708 01:06:08,900 --> 01:06:13,460 we have multi-nut payments so you don't have to trust one min fully but you have a set of mince 709 01:06:13,460 --> 01:06:17,460 that you pause i trust and you move funds around and so on and we're very close to all that 710 01:06:17,460 --> 01:06:24,180 working and once the the amazing thing about eCash is of course it works offline it's incredibly fast 711 01:06:24,180 --> 01:06:28,980 it's incredibly private it's incredibly programmable you can't be you can't be 712 01:06:29,780 --> 01:06:35,380 rock-pulled in a targeted way it's like either the mint goes away completely or everything still works 713 01:06:36,100 --> 01:06:41,780 and i think i think a good milestone like a intermediate milestone is when it feels more 714 01:06:41,780 --> 01:06:49,380 cumbersome for devs to use GitHub than uh do uh use and get yeah go go nostril 715 01:06:49,380 --> 01:06:54,420 yeah and even before that even before that it should if you want to build something you should 716 01:06:54,420 --> 01:06:58,340 want to build it on nostril like independent of the of where to get repose and so on and i think 717 01:06:58,340 --> 01:07:03,380 we're already there i think i'll just suggest it to let's let's oh that's a that's a good one 718 01:07:03,380 --> 01:07:06,900 that's a good one because that's actually a testable one yeah i heard people actually have that 719 01:07:06,900 --> 01:07:11,940 experience wow that's awesome because because building a bot that does something like post 720 01:07:11,940 --> 01:07:17,300 a random picture online i think the easiest way right now is nostril yeah everything else you need to 721 01:07:17,300 --> 01:07:22,900 handle API keys and sign up and do stuff and so on and whatever and then the API breaks and 722 01:07:22,900 --> 01:07:27,940 something changes and exactly and on nostril you can just like go it's literally like it's literally 723 01:07:27,940 --> 01:07:33,860 one line in a in a crunch it's it's it's so easy to do and i think that's the that's the super 724 01:07:33,860 --> 01:07:40,580 power that it's very once you once you get it it's very easy to reason about it's incredibly 725 01:07:40,580 --> 01:07:46,260 resilient it's very easy to develop on yeah and like as we march on the the stuff will just get 726 01:07:46,260 --> 01:07:51,060 easy and easier and easier to build up on it's just like we need to get better as well like i 727 01:07:51,060 --> 01:07:57,780 i i i i'm a bad example i've published zero code snippets so far but you know i also 728 01:07:57,780 --> 01:08:03,060 same same i'm only vibing so my stuff is probably not as useful as Pablo's or Heather's stuff 729 01:08:03,060 --> 01:08:08,660 he hasn't was bullying me into publishing code snippets on how how i was using applesauce 730 01:08:08,660 --> 01:08:13,140 but we we should we should make our own lives easier but i think also that that can be solved 731 01:08:14,340 --> 01:08:19,060 would be actually an interesting exercise to tell an alarm to go through an existing code base 732 01:08:19,060 --> 01:08:24,420 and extract code snippets out of it that was actually our plan to do yeah that would be useful 733 01:08:24,420 --> 01:08:29,620 just just yeah not only tell me but tell the world and make it reusable yeah and extract the 734 01:08:29,620 --> 01:08:35,620 most important stuff and so yeah all right i'm pretty out of steam any final thoughts final words 735 01:08:36,420 --> 01:08:42,820 other things what do you hope for the next cohort are you still interested in participating for sure 736 01:08:42,820 --> 01:08:47,700 are you burned out even it comes to summer now also right now i need a notification but we we 737 01:08:47,700 --> 01:08:53,300 knew that this would happen it's a very intense six weeks like that's that's yeah you need to recover 738 01:08:53,300 --> 01:08:58,020 from from a cohort always but we were we were we were thinking about i told you already in private 739 01:08:58,020 --> 01:09:02,740 but we're thinking about doing shorter ones potentially and and doing some things a little bit 740 01:09:02,740 --> 01:09:10,020 different but but what's amazing to me as kind of my final thought is in the beginning we didn't know 741 01:09:10,020 --> 01:09:14,500 what we were doing with summer engineering and kind of we had a vague idea and so on but it's 742 01:09:14,500 --> 01:09:20,900 really working and we really know what we're doing now like we know how to help birth ideas 743 01:09:20,900 --> 01:09:27,140 and hopefully the right ideas and actually like birth new freedom tech on a weekly basis yeah and 744 01:09:27,140 --> 01:09:31,940 we do it i think we do it really well like it works really well yeah i think i think to get back 745 01:09:31,940 --> 01:09:38,420 to the question what i hope to see in future ones is integration of of the different solutions 746 01:09:38,420 --> 01:09:46,660 like we had a bunch of parts in this cohort that if we bundle them together are just killer ideas 747 01:09:46,660 --> 01:09:53,700 like killer systems but that takes takes time and focus to like you can't go off every week to do 748 01:09:53,700 --> 01:09:59,700 something new to to make it a coherent piece yeah that's actually i discussed it with you all 749 01:09:59,700 --> 01:10:06,740 briefly that's that's so what we want to do next year is do like a six week one in in summer 750 01:10:06,740 --> 01:10:15,140 and do two small satellite ones in spring and fall and and we were actually discussing doing a two 751 01:10:15,140 --> 01:10:23,300 week focus on something two week targeted not even court like a just just like a shippathon 752 01:10:23,300 --> 01:10:29,220 not a hackathon not a bullet on like you actually the goal is to ship something that reliably works 753 01:10:29,220 --> 01:10:33,700 at the end of the two weeks and and to your point i think that's very much missing like bringing 754 01:10:33,700 --> 01:10:39,860 all the little pieces together and going the last five percent which is the hardest yeah yeah 755 01:10:39,860 --> 01:10:44,740 no i like that yeah let's see let's see if we can make it happen i think i think someone 756 01:10:44,740 --> 01:10:50,980 enjoying has it has it in it yeah no no we can we can do it it's it's and people will realize over time 757 01:10:50,980 --> 01:10:58,740 that noster is more than because what what i think it's so funny many people think that noster is 758 01:10:58,740 --> 01:11:04,020 just for saying good morning and saying good night and sharing some memes and shit posting and so on 759 01:11:04,020 --> 01:11:09,620 and and most people have no idea about the stuff that's being built out yeah like right in front 760 01:11:09,620 --> 01:11:14,340 of our of their noses like under their noses in front of their eyes but but we are still very bad 761 01:11:14,340 --> 01:11:19,380 talking about the stuff of course and we we got better this time we managed to to publish a 762 01:11:19,380 --> 01:11:24,900 couple of videos for for the stuff that was built and like like put the demos in video form 763 01:11:24,900 --> 01:11:29,860 and just blast them out so we want to do that more uh we want to do more of that as well but 764 01:11:30,420 --> 01:11:37,220 yeah i to me it's very exciting that that the stuff is actually working people are excited 765 01:11:38,020 --> 01:11:46,420 and when i felt happened in the last two chords in particular is that the very diverse group of 766 01:11:46,420 --> 01:11:51,540 people like people have all different ideas and background and so on they they start coalescing 767 01:11:51,540 --> 01:11:57,380 around the same ideas yeah which tells me that the ideas aren't complete dog shit they are like 768 01:11:57,940 --> 01:12:02,660 there's something to it if multiple people agree even people that don't like each other and are 769 01:12:02,660 --> 01:12:07,060 disagreeable and so on if they agree that's the right idea then you have something and that that 770 01:12:07,060 --> 01:12:12,020 has happened both in last chord and in this one and that has been really excited because that means 771 01:12:12,020 --> 01:12:17,300 that some of the things we that were just completely crazy ideas like a year ago one and a half 772 01:12:17,300 --> 01:12:24,820 years ago the the people people get it more now and stuff is actually being built out and i think 773 01:12:24,820 --> 01:12:28,820 we'll we'll have to leave it at that because they come and they rest us they we talked about 774 01:12:28,820 --> 01:12:35,380 blossom too much yeah there are we didn't even mention torrents yet we're gonna make torrents 775 01:12:35,380 --> 01:12:38,900 great again by the way as well like that's one of the that's one of that's gonna be one of the 776 01:12:38,900 --> 01:12:45,460 side quests yes one of the future side quests all right fantastic amen yeah it was great to have 777 01:12:45,460 --> 01:12:50,580 you thanks so much for kept in kept in the ship again for a week thanks so much for coming thanks 778 01:12:50,580 --> 01:12:56,340 for trusting me where we're we're gonna we're gonna do it again next time all right big hug all right 779 01:12:57,700 --> 01:13:02,900 final snip in case the audio fucked up and let's let's see let's see if the phone ran out of 780 01:13:02,900 --> 01:13:07,300 battery or not let's see if lost half of it we probably did no it's still good it's still going 781 01:13:07,300 --> 01:13:13,620 strong okay don't hit it don't hit the x oh no no no no safe