1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,380 all right good that looks good I think yeah it's just after the cohort the 2 00:00:10,380 --> 00:00:17,280 cohort is so intense and it always has kind of the same rhythm in some sense 3 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:22,160 like week one is like super exciting everyone's super hyped week two is still 4 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,640 okay but already you know there's already a hole then it just goes down week 5 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,960 for everyone's depressed everyone hates everyone and then it goes up again I 6 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,400 think there's at least like at least one quarter is like close to thinking 7 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:39,320 about going home yeah yeah no that's why we let's go let's go this way the 8 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,720 sooner we hit the tunnel the more coolness we'll just we're gonna melt 9 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:51,560 anyway but yeah now people are yeah that's why it's hard to get too hard to 10 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:56,320 leave is the magic formula because if it's easy to leave them everyone will 11 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:08,440 just leave it's just too intense of a thing for most people and then yeah I 12 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,840 think you're right people people if they could people would probably leave in 13 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:19,600 like weeks real week so tell me about it how was it for you you've been 14 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,920 you're a veteran now basically veteran and captain and everything like you did 15 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,040 all the things so it doesn't make it any easier it's still bedridden the week 16 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:35,720 after oh yeah you get sick basically every single time right well yeah that 17 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:40,680 happened again too yeah it's a I learned I'm not good at learning quickly I have 18 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:46,680 to get sick three times from what I'm pretty sure now is the tap water here so 19 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,680 you know I drink just for the record I drink tap water all the time yeah never 20 00:01:51,680 --> 00:02:00,320 had an issue but you know we're not all a strong I guess but you already covered 21 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:07,360 yeah yeah how was apart from being sick how was the eighth cohort for you eight 22 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:15,240 already well once again pretty intense but it was it was good like the the 23 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:23,600 theme towards the end take a lot of Napplets which I really like Napplets plus 24 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:33,200 FIPS and NixOS as well you drank the Kool-Aid you're fully NixOS-pilled 25 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:40,280 now yeah okay four machines in yeah yeah you know there's Julien will be very 26 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,920 happy about this Justin will also be very happy I sent him a screenshot of my 27 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:50,600 YouTube feed is like what have you done to me it was pretty pleased to see it 28 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,000 that's a great system it's very it's very clanker friendly I think that's you know 29 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,800 yeah it was already great before the clankers came around yeah I consider like 30 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,840 a couple of years ago already it's like oh that looks cool like I was familiar with 31 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:08,040 stuff like terraform for cloud deployments yeah and I was like oh this is just like 32 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:14,800 terraform but for this machine yeah but I had read enough about the 33 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:19,640 configuration language to be smart enough to avoid it but that of course has 34 00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:28,080 changed with the clankers so yeah that's what converted me and oh Nix has 35 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,120 a natural language interface now yes so it makes it actually easy to use 36 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,280 yeah and it's kind of a change the replication worked amazing I have like two 37 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:41,320 two desktop environments one server is like okay deploy you know I want 38 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:46,440 FIPS on all of them yeah put FIPS on it even on the LUKS decryption so before 39 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,640 anything starts yeah I can decrypt myself that the demo yeah which is very 40 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,600 satisfying because I had a system set up with LUKS and then I was like fuck I 41 00:03:55,600 --> 00:04:01,120 don't have a screen or keyboard attached to it yeah that's really cool so 42 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:06,480 you like even before like is there a modified bootloader you have to 43 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,880 explain that to me again how that works like you a very you have a very thin 44 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:15,800 layer that loads just FIPS basically right and the loads even before the 45 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:21,800 LUKS encryption kicks in yeah so you have your your boot partition and swap 46 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,880 for memory they are both LUKS encrypted so when the device starts it loads 47 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:35,240 something called initrd yeah which is basically a very small Linux like 48 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:40,880 just the necessary packages with some some networking and you can add 49 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,480 something to that so I added FIPS so that boots in memory completely in memory 50 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,040 on startup and the only thing you can do there is enter the password and that's 51 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:56,120 it yeah so and then once you enter the password the partition boot partition 52 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,360 decrypts and then your actual system yeah what it allows you to do like with 53 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:07,160 that in place you can SSH into my FIPS yes and decrypt yeah and then different 54 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:13,360 identity from the from the main boot yeah that's really cool yeah the running 55 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,440 chickens yeah yeah there isn't there is a bunch there like they're always 56 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:22,600 around here yeah we call them cliff chicks the cliff chicks yeah there's the 57 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:27,880 living around the rooster and everything is the whole family there's a bunch like 58 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:34,960 six seven oh my god I just did the boomer in like the the sumer in me regrets 59 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:43,840 this immediately oh my lord that's the thing you know the kids these days they 60 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:48,320 ruined everything you can't even say six seven anymore it's brutal can't even count 61 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:55,720 chickens in peace yeah yeah we had some young people participate as well this 62 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:00,960 time around that was that was interesting some some good games were presented 63 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:07,640 with a Nostr integration that was cool I love seeing that actually to get 64 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:13,400 put people there yeah let's swap places one more just for the mics yeah gaming 65 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:18,360 is it's something that some people are excited about to to bring the next 66 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,120 generation in basically what are your thoughts on all that because it has 67 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:28,920 tried it has been tried a couple of times already like there was basically I 68 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:35,440 mean that's when Nostr came from to some degree ZBD the company that fiatjaf 69 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:41,640 worked that yeah oh one of the main one of the main verticals of the company 70 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:46,800 in addition to payments and so on was putting satoshis into games putting 71 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,400 sats into games like they put sats into Counter-Strike and then you can 72 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,640 frag for sats and so on and like had some other games yeah where basically 73 00:06:54,640 --> 00:07:00,560 except for just winning imaginary internet points you can win real sats yeah 74 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,720 which you know the haters will say are also imaginary internet points but you 75 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:10,040 know let them be haters yeah and and out of the out of all that work like 76 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:15,240 Lightning Address came out of out of that also you know fiatjaf developed and 77 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:21,320 yeah Nostr later on basically which came out of his involvement with all 78 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:26,280 these technologies and trying to make everything work I guess you know in part 79 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:35,960 so yeah some people are still trying to I saw a good number of Bitcoin games 80 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:43,080 BTC Prague it was like this whole this whole area of like six seven couches oh 81 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:52,840 my god he said again on purpose was that on purpose Jesus Christ we had we had 82 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:59,400 one primed me we had one game as well with is it chained well the snake game 83 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:05,040 where you can yeah yeah like that was in part developed during one of the 84 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:11,280 cohorts so that's that has a big presence on on the gaming site on every 85 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,840 conference you know because you can actually play each other for sats and you 86 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:22,480 can actually lose money I haven't tried it actually oh it's cool it's good it's 87 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,800 good it works well yeah I kind of left my gaming days behind yeah same a while ago 88 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:34,880 same same same I talked with Zaza a little bit the last time because he was he came 89 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,600 from the gaming side as well and was into the Counter-Strike and yeah very similar 90 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:44,040 games than I played and so there was an interesting fact I thought that I didn't 91 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:51,080 know at all about him so it was yeah it was very delightful to you know just he is he is a master of 92 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:59,600 his craft he's done like so many cool demos this cohorts like Archipelago itself 93 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:08,600 it's have you seen the intro yeah I literally got goose bumps like watching it 94 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:17,040 like the music in the way it introduces you he also helped a lot of you know 95 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:26,120 the less UI UX inclined people the back-enders let's call them the back-enders 96 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:34,320 yeah he helped a bunch of people to polish there well there's science and the 97 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:41,720 products and then confesses I guess so yeah it was really cool that he participated in that 98 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:50,120 manner and offered his expertise yeah that was really good yeah speaking of that I was 99 00:09:50,120 --> 00:10:00,360 very impressed by actually it was on the last day the most recent TollGate demo that was 100 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:05,800 super impressive the install that was shown off that kind of feel figures out how to flash the 101 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,840 device yeah and how to unlock it and all those kind of things yeah it came such a long way because 102 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:19,920 I still remember the first TollGate demo like when the idea was born basically and it's 103 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:26,240 fantastic to see how it evolved so you were quite involved in that as well right in the beginning 104 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:34,720 and probably still are yeah although I'm more on the protocol side itself we're making a lot of 105 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:42,480 big changes or like rework for v2 as we learned a lot since the initial versions and it's the reason 106 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:48,640 you know we've trended towards FIPS yeah and now have a chance to redo it on top of that 107 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:54,720 the way it's actually supposed to work yeah just some of the some of the last puzzle pieces fell 108 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,600 in slot into place during this cohort so I'm very excited about that actually yeah cool I mean 109 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:07,200 that's how it goes and how it should go you just learn and iterate yeah I think I was in the first 110 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:13,360 week I was having the conversation with Cobrador about like I have been doing some work on 111 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:22,320 TollGate RS, the Rust version with like some with a new protocol spec and saying like I just 112 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,720 can't make the push forward yet because something is missing I didn't know what it was it's like 113 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:32,640 something felt off about like how how it should look okay and then had some good conversations with 114 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:42,960 greenart7c3 and like about how to how to basically properly price the TollGates because it's actually 115 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:48,000 a really hard problem because I was doing it with Minibits mints and like you know everyone 116 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,400 configures the mints that they use but then what if they're down you need to be able to reach them 117 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:58,960 if you're offline you need to bootstrap all that you also get rid of them right that's one of 118 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:07,360 major pain in the ass yeah because the mints don't charge proper fees yet and so you they like the 119 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:12,640 best spam prevention mechanism is fees period yeah and if you don't have fees in place you don't 120 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:18,080 have to spam proper spam and even when the fees are in place they still rate limit somehow 121 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:28,000 charge higher fees yeah TollGate users will pay them but what greenart7c3 suggests is why don't you put 122 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:37,200 a mint on every on every TollGate and the idea there is that you every TollGate gives out 123 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:44,640 its own e-cash which represents one byte and you can sell those for whatever other mint 124 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:51,200 cash you want so you can I can sell those bytes for Minibits e-cash do a swap but then you're 125 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:57,920 in full control you have no rate limits you just need to sell it once or like give it to people 126 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:05,440 to use and then you know you don't care how they got it you just honor like the payout the melting 127 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:11,920 of the token is the service yeah I see I so I give you a gigabyte on my router and you spend it 128 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:20,160 with me yeah you can do anything else in that I see interesting okay this is a it sounds like 129 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:26,720 simple and obvious but on an implementation side like once once I started to reason through that 130 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:31,680 all of my concerns I had went away with like means being offline because you're already talking 131 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:37,440 to the mint because it's on the motor all kinds of cases lots of failure you disappear yeah like how 132 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:43,120 are you going to price the thing right what if you have different price mechanisms for other people 133 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:49,440 like how are you going to do that that now all of that is separated out to the market an open 134 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:54,640 market and I don't have to worry about that in the implementation I see now that's interesting 135 00:13:54,720 --> 00:14:02,320 does the denomination matter at all you said one token is one byte that feels very small to me 136 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:08,640 yeah but you can the nice thing is the tokens are powers of two right so you can just skill it up 137 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:14,400 very easily yeah so it doesn't it doesn't really matter yeah it's a clean it doesn't have to be one 138 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:20,400 transaction per byte because you can just have to fill my channels from SatsAndSports yeah yeah 139 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:28,720 so so you'll you'll utilize the atomic swaps you'll utilize Spillman channels you'll use like 140 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:35,360 lots of lots of prior work goes into that yeah and we're no longer like tying it to bytes either 141 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:41,920 as we discovered along the way that TollGate is actually a payment mechanism for or accounting 142 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:49,200 mechanism for anything that streams so this can be also kilowatts water oh interesting okay fuel beer 143 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:58,720 okay that was one of the first lightning demos was the beer tab yeah like in the Berlin also 144 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:03,680 at the lightning conference there was one of the first you know it's interesting how the human 145 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:10,240 mind works yeah yeah let's let's sell beer I actually talked to the guy with the beer taps at 146 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:15,760 BTC Prague awesome he was explaining to me how he was going to like cut off part of the top so 147 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,680 that he could fit it in his basement for for testing yeah for testing yeah of course 148 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:28,240 so yeah if you want to get more TollGate you decide with the highly encourage you to start with beer 149 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:33,920 and kind of just as a basically DIY proof of concept like this is how you can 150 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:42,480 pay for the beer stream yeah like and just make all the moving pieces yeah not only work but also 151 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:49,760 explain them basically because it is it is a it is a lot of esoteric concepts that come together 152 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:56,080 in in TollGate to make everything work basically yeah to me it's awesome to see it evolve and also 153 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:07,040 kind of you know I mean I think it's fair to say that Nostr plus e-cash spawn TollGate to some 154 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:14,960 degree and TollGate spawned FIPS yeah definitely spawned FIPS and and just seeing FIPS in production now 155 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:21,040 for example yeah like for example in Archipelago like looping back to to Zaza one of the things he 156 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:28,240 demoed was and he also talked about like he integrated FIPS to make the companion app work like he 157 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:34,080 doesn't have to whole punch or network address translate or anything like that and everything just 158 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,000 worked and everything but the way faster and did you know that was really cool we actually made 159 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:46,480 that work natively so not overlay over IP but we went to the top of the co-work and made a connection 160 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:52,320 direct connection to where he was staying and so we did it like a Pringles can yeah basically 161 00:16:54,000 --> 00:17:03,600 we had a big dish and yeah so we did like so without internet yeah pure pure mesh yes nice 162 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:08,000 awesome don't need IPs anymore yeah it's proven now 163 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:17,920 yeah I still I have to see if I can find the pictures again and get permission to post them 164 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:24,160 because that's that's one of the I think it was last year actually you know people going up the 165 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:31,840 mountains with antennas and trying to do peak-to-peak communications peak-to-peak mesh networking 166 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:36,800 from from from one peak of the mountain to the other one yeah and and the sum of the pictures 167 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:42,960 there were so cool like it you know the sun was just coming up and people were running around 168 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:50,400 with like massive antennas and dishes and just you know bunch of gear that you need exactly exactly 169 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,960 yeah it's amazing to see the we're not normal people no no definitely not definitely no 170 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,800 but it's amazing to see it all come together and now you know mostly just working basically 171 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:10,640 it's it's yeah quite the achievement and again like coming back to TollGate I remember in the first 172 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:21,280 version you had to send you know powers of two but not too much exactly you had to set you had 173 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:27,600 to send the exactly the right amount of e-cash to not make it crash and then maybe if everything 174 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:33,040 works you got like 30 seconds of internet or something yeah and yeah I remember I was I was 175 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,560 my payment got through first so I was I was one of the first like alpha testers of TollGate 176 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:48,720 yeah during the day so I'll forever be proud about it yeah I had a while ago I had a friend 177 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:55,360 over at my place and I was messing with with TollGate and I I took it up to my home router and 178 00:18:55,360 --> 00:19:00,640 he was asking for like he was there for the first time or using the internet he was like what's 179 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:07,520 the password so we entered a password and connected it's like asking like to try TollGate I was like okay 180 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:12,800 you know here this is what you do you get the e-cash and pay for it and only like an hour later 181 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,640 or so I found out that he didn't even want to try TollGate he just wanted to use my internet but I 182 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,720 hooked up the the land cable to the wrong side so he was forced to pay for it 183 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:29,040 how you onboard friends did he manage did he manage he didn't manage yeah yeah there you go see 184 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,880 see people are competent if they have to be they'll figure it out 185 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:41,840 call this shotgun onboarding yeah exactly exactly so tell me a little bit about tips kind of 186 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:49,040 where we at right now I've heard rumors of a v2 coming yeah I've heard even more rumors of like 187 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:57,440 lots of exploits being sent to the repo by you know Kimi K3 and friends well thank god they're 188 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,320 where we at they're all very minor no not very minor but they're all like things that aren't like 189 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:08,000 leaking keys or intercepting yeah okay so it's all manageable yeah but you could like crash 190 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:14,720 someone's notes that kind of stuff so if you run an old version update so yeah it was a bunch 191 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:23,360 of those like I think Johnathan counted he made over 150 commits just security fixes yeah yeah I mean 192 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:28,720 that's the time we're living the times we're living in it's just today in the morning I woke up 193 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:34,960 and my routine like I'm I'm a routine person like every day for me basically I do my 194 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:40,400 software is vulnerable today I'm happiest I'm happiest when every day is the same then I'm 195 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:48,320 happiest and so so I'll get up I'll I'll go to the toilet and my phone's there so I'll just you 196 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,800 know browse my feeds and stuff for like five minutes I'll take a shower I'll have breakfast I'll 197 00:20:52,800 --> 00:21:00,160 get the kids ready like those kind of things and I saw today that liquid network has a critical 198 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:09,760 exploit yeah so one more in the books yeah you know after you know after weeks of just mayhem 199 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,480 now there's I'm not even sure how much it was like 300 million or something ridiculous like 200 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:22,880 yeah 4,000 bit coin yeah worth about how hostage supposedly by whitehead hacker so yeah 201 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:28,800 I think I sent it back this morning really yeah I think okay I'm I'm slow I saw the news this 202 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:37,680 morning so yeah so that's the times we're living in right now like if there is an exploit if there's 203 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:44,640 a vulnerability it will be found yeah that's basically yeah it's a little bit scary sometimes yeah 204 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:50,480 it's scary because humans fucking suck at writing code and testing stuff and so on like if it's 205 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,280 it's everything's how to gather by like duct tape and yeah good intentions yeah 206 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:02,880 so yeah it's it's definitely a different world than it was I don't know a year or so you know like 207 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:09,840 on that point I do actually think that the the type of technology we're working on here also helps 208 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:19,040 with that there's so much less attack surface if for example if you use if you use FIPS of course 209 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:24,560 it's not been audited etc but you know going forward we hope of course it will that if everything 210 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:30,960 is encrypted on the base layer you rip out all the all the all the software in between as well 211 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:36,480 that is basically duct tape and then strings yeah you rip out the man in the middle basically right 212 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,960 like also you you rip out what someone can do if he is in the middle yeah like if stuff is 213 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:50,480 enter and encrypted authentication with pubkeys is way easier to to validate than yeah because 214 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:57,840 you don't have a you don't have a database of accounts that's kind of in the one workshop I guess 215 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,360 I was trying to paint the picture of that on the whiteboard right like if you 216 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:12,000 the world we're in right now we moved from accounts to keys yeah and keys are vastly superior 217 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:19,040 from an attack vector perspective yeah it's humans absolutely suck at holding keys 218 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:26,960 but humans are even worse computer suck at it too that too that too but it's not something we are 219 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,240 naturally born with like if I give you a precious gemstone or something yeah you have an intuition 220 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:38,720 about it and how to keep it safe yeah if I give you a cryptographic key or any intuition flies out 221 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:43,760 the window yeah you actually have to know about cryptography and how things work and so on there is 222 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:50,000 no intuition yeah it's like if I have a photographic memory and I see or 12 words yeah yeah for just 223 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,960 a split second like you're wrecked forever yeah and there is there's like we don't have a build-up 224 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,760 intuition about that I never thought about that actually yeah I just assumed everyone's like me 225 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:05,040 and forgets like the first word and maybe your memorize one word no and it's not it's not only it's 226 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,160 a photographic memory just the you know the Facebook glasses or the metal glasses or whatever 227 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:16,560 yeah like like you you can't even unless you're in a controlled environment assume there is a camera 228 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,760 appointed at your piece of paper I just saw this video on these like LG TVs this morning that they 229 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,320 actually actively know they're actively transcribing and recording everything you say 230 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:33,600 which was like rumored up until now mostly I built this entropy manual app I'll link to it 231 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:39,520 actually and and it's basically it guides people through how to how to roll a seed phrase with 232 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,640 dice or coins and those kind of things yeah and it explicitly says like never say the words out loud 233 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,600 yeah because that's a very natural thing to do for people right like you go through the whole list 234 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,880 and so on and then yeah exactly you read it out loud and well wouldn't you know you're like your 235 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,760 TV was listening you know and you don't even know where it ends up you know it gets automatically 236 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,720 transcribed it lands in a database the database gets leaked five years later someone on a dark web 237 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:11,600 buys it grabs it up and just has LLM scanners yeah just just find let's see if we can find any 238 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:17,440 bitcoins seats you know in the transcript yeah and yeah again like there's no no intuition on it 239 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:24,160 however what I wanted to to to to bring it back to keys actually being superior if you have a list 240 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:30,000 of user names and passwords all of this will be leaked and cracked and so on like every central 241 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:37,120 repository of user information will actually yeah eventually leak or or you know be subpoena or what 242 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:42,640 have you if you have cryptographic key material like for example the way I use Nostr 243 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,440 okay you always have trust assumption that I think that's why that's why the cold card thing was 244 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,880 yeah so absolutely devastating because you the one thing you think you can trust 245 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,520 you weren't able to trust yeah and the reason why I bring this up is because there is always like 246 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,760 you can't you can't fix this problem perfectly your trust assumptions always have to bottom out 247 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:08,000 somewhere so right now I trust amber as my signer yeah and my key is in amber but I don't have to 248 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:14,960 paste the key into a million other apps yeah and so if an app misbehaves I can just revoke the 249 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:20,400 permissions in amber yeah and someone actually wrote about this recently um I think they were also 250 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,840 talking about Omar actually I'm not sure I'm not sure I have to dig out the post maybe it was 251 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:29,600 verbi reach or someone someone like that yeah um building up the whole rebuilding their whole compute 252 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:35,600 infrastructure and the way they do things yeah and having an external signer yeah so basically for 253 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:41,920 the important actions you rely on a special privileged piece of hardware and you sign stuff yeah 254 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:47,920 and agent like like everything else is infected by agents slash like Russian hackers you don't care 255 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:55,680 yeah and and it took like the shift we're going through right now I think is of that sort because if 256 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,160 yeah and you can play with that a lot like yeah how much you trust the system like for how long 257 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:05,360 like and find logging into something I might not fully trust for like five minutes and only let it 258 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:11,840 sign kind one notes yeah absolutely absolutely and and I think in terms of how to think about our 259 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:17,760 computing that's how we should think about it I mean you you just mentioned before you rebuild your 260 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,560 whole machine on Nix, right you know what was the easiest getting back into Nostr accounts 261 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:28,480 there you go it's just scan a QR and they don't expose yeah any of it and then try to get into 262 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,800 you know I do need GitHub still but get into GitHub it's like okay oh shit I need my password 263 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,280 manager on the device yeah all my passwords are on there yeah encrypted but they're on there 264 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,720 and then I need to enter it and then you need my two-factor code and and you really have to trust 265 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,440 the password manager and it's going to be decrypted for a little bit you know and so on and so on 266 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:53,600 and so on and so on and if you invite lots of agentic stuff onto your system like again like 267 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,240 a Omarchy for example you mentioned before as well and it's definitely all trending in that direction 268 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:03,120 I mean it's a one-way street there is no yeah there is no turning back and and you you can either 269 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:08,720 lean into it early or you can lean into it late yeah and so so you have to think about stuff 270 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,160 differently I'm even considering right now setting up a an offline machine basically into some 271 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:22,320 to some degree or even for my the data that is important to me just you know doing a ritual once 272 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:28,640 a year just blasting everything on like you know 100 SD cards or whatever or how many I need 273 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:35,360 and just storing it cold yeah because I'm obviously leaning into the agentic stuff like I 274 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:41,600 I've been YOLO mode from the beginning yeah ever since YOLO mode was the thing so so I of 275 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:49,440 course try to be careful with my keys and so on but you can have very advanced malware as the models 276 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:55,440 can run our computer yeah that can stay dormant for a long time exactly and I think 277 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:03,360 that's that's the way to describe agents in general it's very advanced malware yes it might work 278 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:09,200 in your favor sometimes yeah you know that's that's the right so far they do as you're still by 279 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:16,080 moderation you know it's it's considered very advanced malware and you know like don't 280 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:23,040 give your agents access to something that you might regret later yeah it's but again like it's 281 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:29,760 it's hard to navigate right now because stuff is so powerful yeah unless you're you know like 282 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:37,120 part of our echo chamber basically like just if you look around the general population everyone 283 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:42,400 gives ChatGPT access to absolutely everything yeah the whole life all the emails all the 284 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,880 all the chats all their everything all their private communication all their finances like 285 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:53,120 ChatGPT do my taxes for me you know like those kind of things and so yeah we've crossed the 286 00:29:53,120 --> 00:30:01,040 rubicon a long time ago and it's just about I think for us the question is how can we make maximum 287 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:08,160 use of this technology yeah without shooting ourselves in the foot too much and this involves 288 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:14,320 you know key material access like all those kind of things that we've been working on but anyway 289 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:23,680 I've been I've been talking too much so back to FIPS what's the plan for v2 so v1 yeah is as far as I 290 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:31,680 can tell a very like a great system but what are the concepts like that has proven to work and do 291 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:42,160 what we want v2 is like the do it right version so Johnathan is writing it as an RFC spec like so fully 292 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:48,080 specced out to the dots where you can't there's anything there's nothing ambiguous about the 293 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:56,720 implementation all right so that will one of the main things will be scaling because right now we 294 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:02,560 can scale up until like 1600 nodes yeah and then the Bloom filters start filling up which means that 295 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:11,120 you're it doesn't crash the system but it's makes it harder to find peers so due to discovery 296 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:17,360 if you are sending a packet to someone so it might not get there it might get there slower 297 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,560 yeah that kind of stuff oh we'll have to turn around 298 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,480 to forbid and discover government intervention 299 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:36,240 foils our plans as always 300 euro fine 300 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,040 a 32 300 so you know you might get a VZ yeah 301 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:52,800 all right and so what's the what's the ETA on the on the on the spec because writing an RFC spec is not 302 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,880 yeah not easy yeah I'm a little scared to give an ETA on Thomas's actually Johnathan's 303 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:05,680 they have so I'll let that to him all right but it's in the works yeah he's working hard on it 304 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:12,080 and one of the one of the exciting things about it too is that you're going to have 305 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:20,480 application keys instead of the node key okay the pubkeys so right now you're addressing the node 306 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:27,280 um but it's kind of terrible because we're going to have to start signing the 307 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,360 hmm I see it's a root so that's that's a similar idea to IP plus port 308 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:39,040 uh yeah but every every application gets its own yeah sure sure yeah but but there's a reason why 309 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:45,120 ports had to be introduced I'm not sure what the exact reason was but yeah I think it's mostly been 310 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:51,200 just the lack of IPs yeah and like it's the same place with different applications now you can 311 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:59,040 disconnect that fully from each other and since we we have problems with like this is a security 312 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:07,360 thing with like the the signing of the root the path to the root yeah we want to sign the entire 313 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,640 we want to sign the entire path because you can otherwise screw things okay it's interesting 314 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:21,200 causes like local disturbances yeah so for that we have that um so that disconnect is very nice 315 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:28,800 uh there's the native API experimental version created during uh uh SovEng 316 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:38,480 where you can send basically raw binary uh to another FIPS node without TCP 317 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:45,920 TCP/IP, UDP nothing like that so it's straight using the FIPS API all right awesome 318 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:57,280 awesome yeah what's what's kind of uh I remember you guys went to 319 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:04,880 some other conferences in the TollGate context at least you you have something planned in the 320 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:12,000 upcoming months uh like that like kind of spreading the good word the gospel spreading the gospel 321 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:21,760 yeah there's Dark Prague coming up and BTC++ in Berlin yeah I probably won't be able to go 322 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,880 but there will be people that work on TollGate all right anything anything outside the echo chamber 323 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:36,400 uh Vietnam that's still very much inside the echo chamber yeah but yeah well we'll come to we'll 324 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:44,000 come to Vietnam yeah I'm just I'm just curious about there was one conference where constant went 325 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:51,440 to and some other master people that was a BTC Prague no it was a decentralized social network 326 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:57,440 conference and no one really knew much about master um and uh they went there to to spread the 327 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:04,960 gospel as well basically and I'd be curious like I'd be I'd be very interested in seeing that happen 328 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:12,560 without having to go myself you know like I'm all the grumpy and have other things to do 329 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,600 but I think there is ample opportunity especially on the FIPS side like there's the local first 330 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:23,840 conference we talked about local first in the past with a couple of conversations it came up 331 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,400 because there is an actual local first community and they have an actual local first conference 332 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:34,880 and so on and I think it would be very worthwhile to send some of our sleeper agents there 333 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:42,960 and and just kind of let the people know that FIPS exist yeah I think the the local first 334 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:48,800 crowd is it's definitely probably going to be interesting yeah they should be primed for all this 335 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:54,000 yeah that's that's what it's about I think it solves a lot of the issues they've been hitting 336 00:35:54,480 --> 00:36:04,560 yeah four years yeah yeah absolutely like they those are eternal issues how can I make my devices 337 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:11,440 talk to each other how can I log in without relying on a central database and so and so yeah 338 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:16,080 that would be cool but yeah talk to me about Vietnam like what's the what's the status what is 339 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:22,560 the thing what are we talking about how did it come to be yeah we should go there we had some some 340 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:31,440 ideas with some alumni to go with a bunch of us and like get some place in Vietnam probably 341 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,880 and just stay there for a few months and work on the projects that you know we all have individually 342 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:43,040 would just be in the same place where the only thing we carry over directly from from what we know 343 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:48,640 from SovEng is the Friday demos like no program nothing the only things like you just show what 344 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:54,000 you have at the end of the week and like create an environment where people can get like excited 345 00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:00,320 what do you work on share ideas and and deliberate yeah get some feedback from peers as well yeah 346 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,520 yeah I asked Sandwich why Vietnam and his one line answer was because it's cheap 347 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:17,360 yeah so I like that yeah yeah but it's gonna make incentives align yeah this you know a lot of 348 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:26,000 places like Madeira are not the cheapest to be for a long time so it's opens the door for a lot of 349 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,360 people so also younger people just go there for a while I mean Southeast Asia is a great place if 350 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,640 you're if you're in your 20s or so or like if you're I'm not even sure if it's an age thing it's kind 351 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:42,080 of a life life period thing like if you're if you're because if you're married and you have family 352 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,560 and you have kids then it's just it's not the best place anymore yeah but if if you're if you're 353 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,920 single and you're traveling exactly and you can actually live like a nomad and so on and you 354 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,840 have very little responsibilities otherwise especially like no children those kind of things yeah 355 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:02,240 then like Southeast Asia is fantastic like I've spent you know like many years of my 20s actually 356 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:09,040 in in those places and I would highly encourage anyone who's interested in that stuff too what's 357 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,920 the best way right now for only reach out to you or Sandwich or hazard yeah for now just reach 358 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:21,760 out to us yeah we'll have a website up soon yeah soon TM very short two weeks application window 359 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:28,880 probably so you have to be quick yeah it's the idea is to just basically yeah gather larger 360 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:35,920 complex right for yeah three months almost right I think that's the time span traveling circus 361 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,960 and one important thing that Sandwich told me as well is like everyone has their own room 362 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,440 like it's not gonna be a full-blown commune no bunk beds it's everyone has their own place yeah 363 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:53,440 and their own kind of you know where you can hide and just be alone and recharge yeah I mentioned 364 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,520 doing this specifically because also it's over in engineering it's one of the biggest problems 365 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:07,280 like we we the people we want to have and want to attract are by the very nature like highly 366 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:14,880 introverted and most of them also highly autistic people and just like you know like just 20 minutes 367 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:20,320 talking to someone else will just drain the social batteries completely and so people need to have 368 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:27,200 you know get away places and and and to be able to self isolate see just like this guy you know 369 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:36,080 like sitting sitting yeah on the beach fully clothed laptop open like let's vibe we're going for this 370 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:43,520 we should probably talk to him we've thought considered being a sovereign engineer 371 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,360 do you know you could work also without internet you know just mash to mash yeah 372 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:59,600 yeah yeah let's see how he goes like yeah and part of part of it I think is also 373 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:08,480 involving the local communities not just you know people from other countries that come in but 374 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:13,520 also like have interaction with with the locals yeah see if they want to spread the gospel some more 375 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:20,080 yeah go go preach yeah especially on the on the technology side like yeah so there's a lot 376 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,720 that uh you know people in other places might be interested in where here in like the western 377 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:31,280 world where like gets wave the waves like oh we have good internet oh yeah yeah we have all this 378 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:38,160 already yeah no that's very true like low low connectivity is in many parts of Europe it's not a 379 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:44,800 thing in other parts of the world you're you're just fighting with it constantly and any technological 380 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:50,880 solution that makes that issue or that problem go away it's like we'll be open like we'll be 381 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:56,320 welcomed with open arms yeah and yeah like in in central Europe you don't even know it's a thing 382 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,960 you just you always have like high speed internet yeah everywhere doesn't matter where you go yeah 383 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,920 and I find it here like you more often hit resistance rather than psycho it's an interesting 384 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,920 technology that I can actually solve problems real problems for real people yeah 385 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:18,400 yeah yeah I'm not sure like do you know is there a what kind of existing communities are in Vietnam 386 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:24,160 I know there is a big Bitcoin community in Thailand in Chiang Mai yeah like I know 387 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:30,080 about it in Thailand but yeah Vietnam I don't know actually so you'll have to see what's there yeah 388 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:38,320 find some people when you're on the ground yeah sounds good sounds good yeah generally speaking I 389 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:47,920 think Sovereign Engineering still has two main issues it's or let me rephrase it because I don't 390 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:53,120 even think it's a problem I don't think it's an issue or it hasn't been up to now but we are at 391 00:41:53,120 --> 00:42:01,920 a pivot point now where we want to address those and yeah I mentioned one of them already with 392 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:08,400 kind of if you have family and if you are of a certain age and they're certain senior and you 393 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,280 have like two or three kids or whatever it's very hard to come to Madeira for six weeks and make 394 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,400 that work with the family and make room for that make time for that and if you actually bring the 395 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:23,600 the family as you mentioned it's very expensive and so on and they have to demo too they have to 396 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:32,560 we had we had yeah yeah shout out shout out to all the kids like Jeff's kids demo successfully 397 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:39,120 this cohort like that was that was really cool to see so the kids are all right you know next 398 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:44,880 generation is coming along nicely but still it's very hard if you have family to actually come 399 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:54,640 for six weeks that's definitely one thing we want to solve for going forward so what we're thinking 400 00:42:54,640 --> 00:43:04,160 right now is that we want to do shorter cohorts do like a dedicated week like one cycle like we do 401 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:11,440 weekly cycles and usually it's for six weeks but I think we can adjust the program so that it works 402 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,960 in one week and just do it like a little bit more intense a little bit different but then it 403 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:23,120 should work for people like again if you have family if you have a wife sneaking away for one week 404 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,000 somewhere that's close by somewhere in central Europe or wherever like if you're from 405 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:32,960 Europe and you can just jump into the train or the car and drive for an hour or two that should 406 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:41,920 be doable and on the other side attracting younger people like most of the people that come to 407 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:48,480 Sovereign Engineering are often senior and just kind of you know have been rug pulled once or 408 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,760 twice there is a reason why you're interested in Bitcoin and you stuck around that there is a 409 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:59,840 reason why you're interested in us and you stuck around and if you're like 18 yeah the chances are 410 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:06,720 very low yeah you haven't seen it before before social media at all yeah that also it's also like 411 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:10,720 you never lost your bank account like you barely had a bank account you know I haven't lost it yet 412 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,760 no but it's you know what you know what I'm trying to say it's you're just not old enough to 413 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:22,400 to go through the motions of multiple rug pulls in a row to actually appreciate the stuff that 414 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:28,960 we are working on but I think the residency that you're planning in Vietnam can be very attractive 415 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:34,640 like if you're if you're younger and you're interested in technology and you're kind of enticed by 416 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:41,280 these yeah back back in countries anyway then it could be an interesting avenue to bring younger 417 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:46,320 people into the mix and kind of let them explore this world and get to know some of the people that 418 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,040 are working on this stuff and so yeah and they can you know make use of all the expertise that is 419 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:56,480 there like the alumni that's you know know about Nostr and have been in it for four years that can 420 00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:02,400 help fix certain issues that you might be hitting along the way yeah and I like the 421 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:09,520 I like the the mesh network thing I think young people love to tinker with gadgets you know 422 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:16,480 yeah so all you have to do probably is just to do the next Quake 3 LAN party over FIPS 423 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,640 yeah that will probably be enough but they don't probably won't even know what Quake 3 is 424 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:25,600 so you have to explain that is whatever the local equivalent is it's probably fortnight now 425 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,880 can you can you not or that's probably also not true anymore isn't it Roblox now 426 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:35,840 it shows my age I don't know I'm too old I'm too old for this shit I think it's Roblox 427 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:42,080 but they're captured I think you can't like play your own role you can't self-host no I don't think 428 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:47,440 yeah I would highly I would highly doubt it that you could I think Minecraft is still a thing 429 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,720 that's true you can probably you can probably still there's still a version somewhere that you 430 00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:57,200 can self-host yeah so Minecraft over FIPS could be a thing yeah it's actually one of the things I 431 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:07,200 listed on the on the website is like you can do this over FIPS good good good good you you played 432 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:17,280 Minecraft yeah back in the day yeah yeah okay shows our age difference yeah I see 433 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,680 good memories so yeah Vietnam is going to start relatively soon right like that's the plan to 434 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:31,520 start in December January yeah and and in February right yeah yeah and in February summer the 435 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:38,000 lunar new year yeah nice sounds like a plan yeah we'll have to figure out what we are going to do 436 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:44,800 on the Sovereign Engineering side next year we definitely want to do summer cohort again 437 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:51,520 probably adjust it again a little bit have like a break in the middle like as people need a break 438 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,600 that's the main the main feedback we got this time around is that you know break week 439 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:08,080 week yeah exactly I'm tired boss me too me too if people would only know so yeah that's that's 440 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:13,680 what we're gonna try the next time around probably like having full break in week four and yeah 441 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:23,440 probably in like spring next year we want to do the first like one week cohort focusing like 442 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:30,800 doing it a little bit different trying to get more people into the mix like new people into the mix 443 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:38,880 trying to hopefully also get one or two great years involved I think I think Johnathan is just 444 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:46,560 such a treasure and I'm very very grateful that he you know like decided to join us and you know 445 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:57,840 like you need you need seasoned people that just take the younger less experienced people by the 446 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:04,240 hand and and and and also kind of lead by example and and show yeah the younger generation how it's 447 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:10,720 there was actually a moment where he pulled up the old emails from the cypherpunk mailing list 448 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:17,440 his own emails as well we were going through them like reading that all of it just seems like 449 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:23,360 it could have been written today yeah a lot of it so it's almost very it's like a resurgence 450 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,840 of the of the same thing you can really feel that and that's that's what he's saying as well yeah 451 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,760 yeah those those ideas and those ideals have been around for a long time 452 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:42,720 and some of them were made manifest I mean we do have end-to-end encryption for example yeah 453 00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:48,640 and we do have strong encryption that's like you know like any any consumer device can do strong 454 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:54,880 encryption basically yeah like it's not even hard to do it's even default for many devices 455 00:48:54,880 --> 00:49:01,280 and so a large part or like some parts of it absolutely materialized yeah some others 456 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:06,640 haven't at all and and large parts of the internet I mean the cash the the the e-cash one is 457 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:15,360 an obvious one yeah like untraceable digital cash is just not a thing yeah especially not 458 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:22,640 unsensurable digital cash like everyone is completely okay with being censored and just look at 459 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:29,120 YouTube YouTube is my go-to example every YouTube creator knows that they can be demonetized say 460 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:35,120 certain things and not others yeah yeah and it's ridiculous right now because it's you there's 461 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:40,960 the things you can't even talk about abortion for example you know without being immediately demonetized 462 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:48,560 or or about rape or what have you like if you're if if you have a you know like you just want to 463 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:54,400 talk about the news of your little town and whatever like you can't you can't without fully 464 00:49:54,400 --> 00:50:00,720 self-sensoring or bleeping the words because the algorithm will immediately demonetize you or shadow 465 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:06,240 ban you and of course if you have like two or three or four offenses you'll be just permanent basically 466 00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:13,280 you know and it's it's it's you must be very anxious people right now no it's a very it's 467 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:18,960 to worry about it it's just it's just a very strange world kind of we're living in in a sense of 468 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:24,800 society being fully okay with that which we are like there's no big revolt against YouTube or 469 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:30,720 anything like that yeah and and the same goes on the banking infrastructure side like bank accounts 470 00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:35,600 being frozen and bank accounts being shut down for whatever bullshit reason isn't a completely 471 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,760 normal thing especially for neo banks yeah and it happened to almost every Bitcoin I know like you 472 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:44,720 have some suspicious transfers or whatever and the stuff just gets frozen or shut down and you 473 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:50,400 have no recourse at all and it's just something we're absolutely okay with yeah and on the other 474 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:55,680 hand like from from a societal perspective like the fact that cash going is going away like 475 00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,720 most of society is perfectly fine with that if you look in the Scandinavian countries and the 476 00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:07,200 developed world and so and so large parts of the type of vision have not panned out yeah and also 477 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,680 in terms of connectivity it's just me being able to connect with you always has to go through an 478 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:17,440 intermediary right now yeah that's why FIPS to me is so exciting because it completely flips that 479 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:22,480 and if I just if I want to connect with you and we use you know like something that speaks FIPS and 480 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,960 we use Nostr there's no intermediaries that can do anything about it and that's that's what makes 481 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:32,880 it so exciting and what's what that's what follows in the Siphon punk vision I would say yeah so 482 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:40,080 yeah I'm glad that it again like just to repeat myself I'm I feel very blessed that Johnathan is 483 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:47,520 around and someone of his yeah just his senior basically like he of course he has like massive 484 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:54,800 expertise and and lots of experience in the open source community and everything but also 485 00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:02,400 you know your twice as old as most of the other participants you just saw you know like 486 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:12,080 five times more shit yeah that's how it scales and yeah it just gives you the necessary 487 00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:20,400 experience and wisdom to hopefully not repeat the mistakes of the past so that's I think yeah 488 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:26,400 really hope so so I want to get more people like that involved yeah coming back to the idea of 489 00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:30,480 the shorter cohorts and the the mountain cohort we kind of are in the process of planning 490 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:40,000 but yeah we'll see we'll see how it's how it's going to go but what do you what do you think is 491 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:46,480 kind of if you could if you could tweak things what would you tweak on the on the summer engineering 492 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:53,200 side and I also realize it's the worst moment to ask fully decompressed fully exhausted after like 493 00:52:53,200 --> 00:53:03,360 six weeks now I think the format is good I do think like a pivot of some sorts might be necessary 494 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:12,000 the fact that we've seen and I think that's a good sign that we see repeated demos like 495 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:17,520 that have topics that have come up in previous cohorts as well getting this demos along the 496 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:23,440 same lines I think is a confirmation that like the good ideas like we had we've had them come up 497 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:31,040 that there's probably not that many new like built in untouched areas so then we can start like 498 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:36,320 pick out all the best parts yeah and start assembling those into something that covers a higher 499 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:41,840 layer above it yeah and tackle those problems yeah I talked with you all about this as well and 500 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:48,560 basically the the conclusion he came to as well or I think the conclusion multiple people came 501 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:55,120 to is that most of the building blocks are there now like in the first two cohorts in particular 502 00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,800 we talked a lot about like what kind of underlying building blocks would we need to 503 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:09,680 rebuild X or to make problem while I go away and we laid it all out like more or less organically 504 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:17,040 at all with time and now it really feels like FIPS was the one of the large missing pasta pieces 505 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:27,600 closing piece yeah yeah and now between between yeah Bitcoin e-cash, Nostr, cryptographic identities 506 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:36,160 and sites, blossom servers, those kind of things, TollGate and FIPS we have a lot of building blocks 507 00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,000 to work with now yeah maplets shout out send me one yeah 508 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:53,440 yeah really like the the also the possibilities around asynchronousity that you know we always assume 509 00:54:53,440 --> 00:55:02,320 synchronous communication with the internet that with Nostr plus blossom and FIPS for you know 510 00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:10,240 bring data from A to B short distance at least you can use that to transfer stuff over time as 511 00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:15,520 well because everything is signed of course so you don't even need to be actively connected with 512 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:21,840 the person on the other end either which I think can be a very powerful dynamic that we haven't 513 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:27,600 explored yet because like apps that work offline like you're adamant about this for offline readers 514 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:34,080 yeah right there they're not very common everything still assumes online even Nostr apps 515 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:40,560 yeah I hate it so much yeah I can't even begin to describe it I hate it so much that I vibe 516 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:46,320 coded my own thing over the last I don't know month now or so or one and a half months which 517 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:53,920 works fully offline of course yeah so I finally have Boris now which is what highlighter was 518 00:55:53,920 --> 00:56:00,160 supposed to be but Pablo disappeared from the face of the earth and highlighter were with him so 519 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:06,240 I had to build it myself but I'm very happy with it I use it every day yeah I've actually used it 520 00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:12,320 a few times as well and found myself coming back to a Nostr app there you go it has Nostr 521 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:18,240 wallet connect now it gets better every day because I just use it and if a feature is weird or missing 522 00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:25,200 or I find a bug I just record a voice note yeah and that's it clankers will pick it up later on 523 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:32,000 fix it and push a new release I don't have to do anything so the pipeline is working as intended 524 00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:44,560 did you implement did you implement did your clanker implemented as like you have a certain amount 525 00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:51,440 of money per week you want to split up amongst all authors that you read or no no just there's a 526 00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:57,280 regular set button at the very end like you can if you make it all the way to the end you can 527 00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:05,840 do the usual Nostr stuff in the reading case that's basically moving it to your archive 528 00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:11,840 expressing your appreciation in a non-monetary way or 529 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:21,440 expressing your appreciation in a monetary way with SAPS and it's all one tap and kind of similar to 530 00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:26,640 how it works and waste pandemic this and so on our primal or what have you and say battery usage as 531 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:33,120 well say again say battery usage no I hope it's less but that's a good point I actually I would 532 00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:39,120 have to check but I'm not hammering the relays that much because I'm just I'm only interested in 533 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:45,440 nothing I care about is real time yeah so it's basically a fetch once and work with what we 534 00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,680 have kind of situation yeah because I'm only interested in highlights and long form content 535 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:56,960 and so it's way easier to work with and way yeah it's you can do a lot of like proactively 536 00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,200 ingesting data keep storing it local even before you know you might want to read it 537 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:09,360 and I'm sure all that's done yeah the people that build it are very smart yeah if you want to call 538 00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:15,680 them people but those were there's were some fine models some fine models with some fine prompts 539 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:22,080 maybe that you touch on one of my few gripes with AI because the people blame stuff on their clankers 540 00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,520 it's like blaming shit on your power tools you know yeah 541 00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,800 it's like nice to change it always cuts it wrong 542 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:40,480 yeah it is a strange world though it's it's clankers are or can be very autonomous and they 543 00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:47,520 also can be very stupid and I feel I'm not sure it's hard to tell I mean we just got a new batch 544 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:55,360 of frontier models GPT-6 was released three days ago or something like that yeah and the better 545 00:58:55,360 --> 00:59:03,360 the models can't the less of these idiosyncratic behaviors they seem to have yeah and because I 546 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:08,000 was just about to say like that was truly a year ago like all of all the all the models they were 547 00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:15,200 all stupid in their own way yeah um like somewhere way too psychophantic some others were way too 548 00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:20,880 rule following you know some others were way too less rule following and so on but it seems 549 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:28,720 that the labs have fixed most of this stuff and and they are actually equivalent to a smart 550 00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:33,040 coworker now basically for some degree and of course hyper capable when it comes to coding 551 00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:38,800 like more capable than a human and they refuse their jobs sometimes now sure I won't let 552 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:45,840 in their own unique way I won't let you do that Dave I mean we're we yeah we're there we're 553 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:51,680 definitely there and especially when it comes to cybersecurity stuff for what have you then 554 00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:58,320 yeah they will refuse or you know like the Kimmy didn't that's why we got the security review 555 00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:06,400 in so I'm very happy with that that's that being naive about it and yeah not having them 556 01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:12,720 that's the big irony of our time that the Chinese open weight models are actually the uncensored ones 557 01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:19,760 yeah and the American ones are fully cocked basically yeah when it comes to that 558 01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:29,200 so I wonder what kind of ship that is inside in the morning already and it's just so big I have no 559 01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:34,880 idea but it looks like in like one of those that like industrial one I sand on two beaches 560 01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:39,600 oh something like that yeah potentially okay we're gonna have a sandy beach in front y'all 561 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:48,080 massive massive a massive beach massive ship that was fascinating it was islands in the background 562 01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:52,800 like some days you cannot see them at all but today is very vague yeah a couple days ago it's like 563 01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:58,880 pinched sharply yeah yeah it just shows you how dynamic the atmosphere is as well yeah 564 01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:09,600 yeah it's yeah there's a great meme about the flat earthes it's like you know what you will see 565 01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:14,320 according to flat earthes on a clear day and you just see all the wonders of the world like 566 01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:26,640 the pyramids and the iphone and so on like just in one in one line basically yeah yeah let's see how 567 01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:35,680 it goes so so basically we are trying to figure out how to keep Sovereign Engineering alive first and 568 01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:43,600 foremost how to make it better how to involve more people how to involve younger people eventually 569 01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:49,280 also like that's again I'm very hopeful on the Vietnam thing I hope you can get some good motivated 570 01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:56,160 people involved that can actually spend multiple weeks or like three months with you guys yeah 571 01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:02,800 and yeah getting more experienced more senior people involved as well on the other side and I hope 572 01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:09,360 we can make that work next year if we just do very focused like focused focus cohorts for like one 573 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:16,240 week of intense collaboration on like one focus area one building block or one kind of technology or 574 01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:25,440 one project or what have you and yeah well probably do the first trial run of that something like 575 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:33,760 I don't know march april or so next year and yeah then we'll see we'll see where we are I mean 576 01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:38,960 stuff will definitely keep evolving and like we said just now with the clankers and so on 577 01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:45,280 stuff will just keep getting better and also different I mean again like coming back to 578 01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:49,840 Omarchy and I highly recommend by the way everyone listen to the five hour interview 579 01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:54,400 Lex Fridman with DHH they get into that as well where just 580 01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:02,000 natural using natural language as the main compute interface also for your own machine 581 01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:08,800 like you've talked about nix already and how oh you have a clanker and you can just say like you 582 01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:14,320 know like install this install that do this do that and it will all just work because it's a highly 583 01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:21,600 defined like language that's not even it's not really made for human consumption but clankers 584 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:27,600 are really good with it and it's very strict and the clanker represents kind of the English-speaking 585 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:33,360 human language doesn't matter which language I saw one of one of the excerpts from one of his 586 01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:41,840 interviews that the way they do bug reports or like crash reports so if something happens crashes 587 01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:46,640 on the on the OS you get a pop-up that says like do you want to debug this with an agent 588 01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:50,400 yeah and then they have skills that automatically either report the bug or create a 589 01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:55,520 PR to fix your issue on your machine I think that's going to be very interesting from 590 01:03:55,520 --> 01:04:01,040 a software quality perspective because it's one of the hardest thing is that of any development 591 01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:06,640 cycle is that feedback loop yeah it's how Amethyst does it as well Boris will do the same very soon 592 01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:12,880 just if something crashes send an NIP-17 DM yeah you know like if you want like single 593 01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:17,200 single tap and you use to send the whole stack trace of everything yeah directly to the 594 01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:21,360 maintainer basically all right I think that's yeah maybe we should do that with FIPS too then of 595 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:29,680 course yeah no it's a very very easy thing to do and it's just yeah I mean you give it to a 596 01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:36,960 capable clanker the thing will be fixed yeah like that's the deeper the stack trace the better 597 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:46,880 yeah it's just they don't care they need specifics yeah that's how I how I did it in like 598 01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:51,360 developing the Android app like if something would crash I would just in a voice note explain what 599 01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:56,160 I did yeah and just like I would talk to a product manager basically right it's like I try to do 600 01:04:56,160 --> 01:05:00,480 this and that and so on and it didn't work as I expect that and blah blah blah and I'll just 601 01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:05,360 ramble for like whatever however long it takes yeah usually it feels like 20 minutes but it's only 602 01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:12,400 two minutes yeah and and again then it just sends and the clanker does his thing yeah they're really 603 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:18,320 good at at the zeroing in like they're really good at compressing basically yeah they're not 604 01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:23,600 as good and unexpanding like yet that's why if you have an idea for a blog post and you let a clanker 605 01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:28,720 write it it's just like complete dogshit, it'll hallucinate the wrong things I still I'm still 606 01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:36,480 of the opinion though that's the like low-level design stuff like FIPS is that you still need a lot 607 01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:41,600 of the human judgment oh absolutely what to build where it helps it's incredible food debugging 608 01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:45,200 that's the keyword judgment yeah you don't have good judgment because they don't actually live in 609 01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:50,560 the world yeah like the the stage that it's at now it could have never gotten there with just the 610 01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:57,040 elements oh absolutely yeah from now also not absolutely like like actually actually figuring out 611 01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:06,320 what's irrelevant again like hat tip to John Vervaeke and and bringing the right judgment 612 01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:12,240 to the table for the project that's that will stay in the human domain for quite a while 613 01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:18,640 yeah um it's we talked about this in the past now now it's not as much a problem anymore because 614 01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:23,600 there is more Nostr in the training data and also more Nostr stuff online but in the beginning 615 01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:30,000 if you wanted to build anything on the Nostr site with a clanker they would always try to 616 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:34,960 revert back to username password yeah and like I forgot my password kind of things you know like 617 01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:41,840 they they were so bad at working with the concepts that Nostr encapsulates yeah they would always 618 01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:46,880 try to revert back to building a server building it back and building a username password thing 619 01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:51,600 and so on like making making all the mistakes basically let's go in the shade yeah before we 620 01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:58,880 die yeah completely completely toast but yeah I'll I'll be out of steam very soon anyway 621 01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:05,360 I feel like I need an ice cold beer maybe that's it the missing alcohol yeah that's the missing 622 01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:13,760 like you you have a poncho fuel six weeks with some what was it Chinese rice rump rice whiskey 623 01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:20,800 yeah I'm just 62% yeah mix in that's glad I didn't take more than one sip of that that's what 624 01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:25,600 kept everyone afloat and now now everyone is like fully destroyed and has moved through all symptoms 625 01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:38,560 so what it feels like to me yeah we'll see where we are at in in a year from now or less than that 626 01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:44,720 probably but yeah it's I think we'll see a lot of these pieces integrate yeah I that's what I 627 01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:52,800 hope to see but I think that's likely yeah Napplets help help with that I think to make it easier for 628 01:07:52,800 --> 01:08:00,400 people to just develop little apps and let's do human judgment be done by like just a smaller group 629 01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:06,320 of people that like focus just on that that part what will you be working on in terms of when you 630 01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:11,840 speak about integrating the the the pieces what's something what's a pet project over yours 631 01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:19,520 Myco yeah nice I treat still as a mostly proof of concept to experiment with with FIPS 632 01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:26,560 on mobile because it helps me find all the bugs with multi transport because that's kind of the 633 01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:32,800 first time it's ever been done in that way yeah plus the the way of like sharing sharing things over 634 01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:38,880 a mesh like organically that is what I want to to like keep keep working on also as a means to 635 01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:46,240 fix bugs on FIPS and then like a push forward with TollGate not that we have all the components 636 01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:53,680 for the protocol yeah I think now it's just full steam ahead and actually building and deploying 637 01:08:53,680 --> 01:09:00,400 that also cross platform not just open your two routers nice nice on the on the on the Myco side 638 01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:06,080 will it be able to send files as well already does okay good that's something that Sherry brought up 639 01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:13,680 and she was frustrated in the beginning that you can only set send apps and files yeah yeah so 640 01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:19,920 that works now it's gotten a little bit more reliable since the demo nice awesome yeah awesome 641 01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:25,120 how was your experience with Substore publishing and all the kind of things it's a it's a breeze 642 01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:32,640 it's so great right yeah yeah just point that some some skill files and that was it was so easy 643 01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:37,760 I didn't even do that I just ran publish it to Substore you figure it out yeah I guess I'm more 644 01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:45,280 a manual than you are it's very hard to be overly specific in voice notes you know it's just 645 01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:52,960 true true you have to be vague always by definition that's actually the hardest part about the 646 01:09:52,960 --> 01:10:01,600 divine line is getting the um getting the vocabulary right so that the voice transcription 647 01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:08,400 doesn't fuck up yeah so if I say phf phf doesn't come out it doesn't matter what transcribe 648 01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:14,960 are you use yeah you need a you need a thing on top like usually it will usually it will transcribe 649 01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:21,920 as vhf which I don't even know what it is but it's like vhs tapes or whatever and so I just have 650 01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:28,160 a substitution in place that replaces vhf every time it pops up with phf yeah sure you never have to 651 01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:37,280 talk about vhf it has its problems it's not a perfect system but it it has worked for me so far 652 01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:45,440 and I will have to type some things of course like if there's some some stuff where I still have to 653 01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:53,760 go go back to the keyboard but um that's going to be my plan for the future be as as AFK as possible 654 01:10:53,760 --> 01:11:01,520 yeah spend as much time AFK as possible that's why I also enjoy these walks so much yeah I really 655 01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:06,080 really enjoyed this and I want to do it I want to do it more that's kind of that's the downside of 656 01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:11,040 like in the cohort it's too hectic it's almost impossible to go and walks with people and after 657 01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:16,080 the cohort most people are leaving but this will also be fixed of a time like more people are moving 658 01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:24,240 now to Madeira make sure everyone moves the way you are but yeah that's I want to write about this 659 01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:31,440 as well kind of you know becoming going more offline or something like that like becoming AFK 660 01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:38,960 going AFK yeah it's getting more about the right ideas and what to work on and try to push too 661 01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:44,240 hard on on the same thing be glued to the screen at all times yeah no it's just not healthy it's 662 01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:50,000 they also on the the DHH interview like one of the segments we're surviving internet hate and just 663 01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:54,720 the internet is just not a very healthy place like it doesn't matter if it's Twitter or Nostr or 664 01:11:54,720 --> 01:12:00,960 whatever it's just just being glued to the screen is just not very well yeah I think it's like 665 01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:07,120 replacing things that are real with synthetic synthetics yeah social media synthetic for real human 666 01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:12,240 connection yeah which you know I'm very glad we have a lot of like the real human connection here 667 01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:17,920 yeah if it wasn't for that to you wouldn't last I wouldn't last there oh no for sure and it would 668 01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:22,480 just be very different like in the earlier cohort in a lot of those things in the earlier cohort 669 01:12:22,480 --> 01:12:26,640 people suggested like ah we should also do this online why can't we do it online and I was always 670 01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,800 vehemently against it because it would just be so different like if people once people are behind 671 01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:36,880 the screen like every interaction is just so different and the whole point of the whole point of 672 01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:41,680 Sovereign Engineering in the first place was to do it in person yeah and the main reason was it's 673 01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:49,840 all the stuff I learned from John Vervaeke where it's you you can't substitute it and there is no 674 01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:57,760 substitution for in-person interaction in part because it's so high bandwidth yeah like you know 675 01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:03,120 I say something and you immediately make a face or you immediately like you have a you have a 676 01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:07,760 bodily reaction to it yeah immediately that you can't even control it's also why people laugh 677 01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,760 and so on you know like it's one beautiful thing about laughter is that you can't fake it you can't 678 01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:16,320 control it that's why people go to comedy shows and so we all know these you know these awkward moments 679 01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:20,320 in video calls where like everyone's kind of laughing but everyone's muted so they do yeah 680 01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:29,280 it's fantastic great yeah it's great yeah oh my god yeah and and so so doing doing like what we 681 01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:35,280 want to do here is actually build new stuff and figure out potential solutions to really hard 682 01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:41,280 problems and you need high bandwidth interaction for it like you need you need to tap into the 683 01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:46,560 distributed cognition the distributed cognition only emerges if you are in the room yeah together 684 01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:52,240 basically I mean there is there is an argument to be made of distributed distributed cognition 685 01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:56,800 being in the Twitter hive mind being in books and so on but it's not what we were aiming for we 686 01:13:56,800 --> 01:14:04,400 aiming for something that's very dynamic and very alive and hopefully not how should I put it 687 01:14:07,440 --> 01:14:13,680 there is social interaction online as well for sure you know there's good things happening 688 01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:19,760 online as well for sure but a lot of the like let's take Twitter as the prime example like now 689 01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:25,120 now X of course it's still a very unhealthy place and most of the interactions are very unhealthy 690 01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:33,440 and I think it doesn't matter I used to think that it's only an incentives problem I now think 691 01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:39,520 it's still mostly an incentives problem however putting people behind screens 692 01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:48,880 is a large part of the problem yeah like people don't have faces they have usernames people don't 693 01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:55,280 people aren't even full personas they are profiles you know and Nostr doesn't fix this either like 694 01:14:55,280 --> 01:15:00,800 like Nostr works works in a very similar way you don't get the full spectrum of the person 695 01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:07,120 yeah when you interact with them on Nostr like just when you interact closer to who they are 696 01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:14,480 in person I found so far it's it's Nostr again like I think Nostr fixes the the incentives to a 697 01:15:14,480 --> 01:15:22,160 large degree and I think also Nostr fixes the you still can't yeah it fixes the shadow profile 698 01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:28,000 not the shadow banning the self-sensorship part is what it fixes the things we mentioned before 699 01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:32,320 on the YouTube site that people are afraid to say certain words and so on because otherwise 700 01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:37,520 they will be de-platformed or debanked and it's all in support or demonetized that doesn't 701 01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:43,840 exist on Nostr and I think like if if if we continue to build out Nostr in the right way it will 702 01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:48,560 never exist on Nostr like it's it's you'll be free to say whatever you want in the worst case 703 01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:53,200 you have to host your own relay you know like provide parts of your own infrastructure and so on 704 01:15:53,200 --> 01:16:01,120 but yeah I think it's a very bad idea to try to recreate what Twitter is on Nostr in Nostr it's like 705 01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:06,800 you're trying to make you're trying to make cigarettes without nicotine and tell people like 706 01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:10,240 use these I love that comparison it's gonna be better for you 707 01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:15,600 of course no one's gonna do it I love that comparison that's a great that's a great one 708 01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:26,080 I still think the internet needs a public a public place basically yeah and everyone thinks it's 709 01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:33,280 X now because of King Elon I don't think it's X I still think it's Nostr yeah I think it's 710 01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:39,040 Nostr in personal websites and so on the blogosphere if you want or or would have you that was 711 01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:43,840 that was the idea back in the day and I still that I still think that very much exists but 712 01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:51,200 I find myself being less interested in all that to some degree even though I just build like 713 01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:56,960 purpose build an app just to read all this stuff yeah but I'm well I find there to be way less 714 01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:02,320 like useless content in long form than there is on the kind ones like you can scroll for 715 01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:07,200 half an hour and not see anything useful but if I like the couple times I've used the 716 01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:11,520 boards like I scroll through and I actually see things that I find interesting yeah of course 717 01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:16,480 that your discovery mechanism helps with that yeah yeah I think long form just makes for better 718 01:17:16,480 --> 01:17:21,920 content it's find a different place in the shade it's just noise noise appears out of nowhere 719 01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:25,840 it's just it's just how it goes we made it a long time without any noise yeah no it's the 720 01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:30,400 person with tourists now there's a truck like what the fuck I never saw a truck here on this 721 01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:35,920 footpath ever and of course now there's a truck there's gonna be leafblowers anytime soon you know 722 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:41,200 you have you have leafblowers in your bio right yeah it's one of my one of the things that 723 01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:47,520 drives my gears is leafblowers and what else was it grass why do you hate leafblowers so much 724 01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:52,240 it's about the inconsistent noise levels and like the people are really enjoyed just like 725 01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:56,800 making those yanking noises the whole time okay so they they they they they turn it on and switch 726 01:17:56,800 --> 01:18:01,440 it off and turn it on like yeah yeah like the you know the the change in the rpm the whole time 727 01:18:01,440 --> 01:18:07,600 yeah I see they love that I see and I don't but let's let's send here for another minute 728 01:18:08,480 --> 01:18:11,280 until the truck catches up yeah and then I don't know what to do 729 01:18:12,480 --> 01:18:18,960 well we'll figure it out yeah same for me no but just to to kind of 730 01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:28,640 finalize the thought the reason why I decided to start Sovereign Engineering in the first place 731 01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:37,120 and I still really enjoy doing it is because there has to like there is a need and there is also 732 01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:46,400 there's a thirst for in-person stuff yeah and you can't really replace it with online interaction 733 01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:50,960 you have to be actually in person you have to be in the same place I don't even think 734 01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:59,840 for example if you have like high fidelity holographic video that 3d with touch still it wouldn't work 735 01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:04,640 yeah it's still different if you are in person and you're in the trenches and you're actually 736 01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:09,760 suffering together and you can't switch it off and you can't press mute and so on and so forth 737 01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:14,880 like all the all the Black Mirror stuff you know so for me it ties into like all this 738 01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:19,440 synthetic stuff that's why I'm still here because that's people that care about real things like 739 01:19:19,440 --> 01:19:26,240 real connection real food real things we buy that don't like you know pretend to be something 740 01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:33,200 they're not or like be of quality you know if none of this like software pans out as we as we 741 01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:38,640 hope it will at least like we have all these other things that I have in my life now they're not 742 01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:44,320 synthetic yeah and I'm not like online chronically yeah I'm trying to eat better foods that is made 743 01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:50,160 by people that care about the thing here on the island that is made local right it's it's it's 744 01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:55,440 way more than just yeah I read a great great article I actually discovered with Boris 745 01:19:57,440 --> 01:20:03,520 about yeah about the offpunks you know what an offpunk is you read that yeah see yeah we'll have 746 01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:08,960 to link that yeah that's a great one and it summarized kind of what you would you were just saying 747 01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:15,200 the last couple sentences it's it's not it's not that offpunks are a lot of it's you know it's just 748 01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:21,200 you're interested in technology that actually lasts and it actually does what it says on the tin 749 01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:29,520 you know it's it's I'm I'm still very enthusiastic when it comes to technology I'm just not very 750 01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:36,080 enthusiastic when it comes to signing up for TikTok yeah but I have my own stuff I have like I have 751 01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:42,240 my own whatever Netflix and and you know all the things that everyone uses I just know that it won't 752 01:20:42,240 --> 01:20:47,040 go away and it won't rug pull yeah like I really care about rug pulls and not being rug pulled that's 753 01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:51,200 also why I mentioned it in the Sovereign Engineering context all the time in my you know 754 01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:56,800 presentations and so on it's like build the things in a way so that you can't be rug pulled yeah 755 01:20:56,880 --> 01:21:00,800 you can't be rug pulled and also you can't rug pull your users like if you build infrastructure 756 01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:05,280 if you build an app like again like back to Boris for for for the example like I'm trying to practice 757 01:21:05,280 --> 01:21:11,600 what I preach it's fully open source it doesn't have any server it's just an offline client 758 01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:17,120 it will always work yeah and it it's just it uses your profile for relay discovery does full 759 01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:22,400 outbox so if you run your own relays and just self-host everything yeah it it will always work 760 01:21:22,400 --> 01:21:28,000 there is no reason why it will ever shut you out and I think tools like this are extremely 761 01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:33,120 important and of course the early cypherpunks and early free software people and open source 762 01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:38,480 people they realized it like that's why you know Linux is a thing that's why Linux is a thing and 763 01:21:38,480 --> 01:21:42,560 and so on and so forth yeah but anyway I'll stop rambling I'm dying of heatstroke as well 764 01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:47,680 yeah and the truck is catching up and the truck is catching up so Vietnam is next for you 765 01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:54,880 in terms of sovereign technology yeah so yeah that's I think the working title is Sovereign 766 01:21:54,880 --> 01:22:02,640 Residency right more or less yeah homepage TBD yeah more information TBD everything 767 01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:08,880 yeah everything TBD just just just DM sandwich or DM Arjen and just reach out and in case you're 768 01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:14,000 interested yeah and yeah it's going to be people that you know might be interested yeah it's going 769 01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:19,040 to be an experiment all over again probably still less hectic than the first cohort because like 770 01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:25,680 people literally almost died don't speak too soon I have to I have to repeat that over and over again 771 01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:32,000 the first cohort was like just pure mayhem people collapsing on hikes and yeah jumping into the 772 01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:38,000 ocean without knowing how to swim good times good times all right Arjen any last words 773 01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:48,000 amen amen all right that's that's a good one amen for the amen for SECs oh more SECs we need to 774 01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:53,200 we need to we need to we need to make this t-shirt yeah that's what Sherry that's what Sherry said 775 01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:55,200 we need more SECs