Good morning.
How are you doing?
Good.
Nice to see you brother.
Likewise.
How are you?
Jesus Christ.
The wind is going to be fun.
Oh, jeez.
It's getting bad.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I was looking here listening to you with Paul.
Yeah.
And the last hundred meters I could not even hear anything.
Yeah.
No, it is proper windy.
I'm not sure how we should do it.
We're rolling by the way.
Jesus.
Just so you know.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
This is already part of the...
I don't know.
I can...
The only things I cut is in the beginning and in the end.
Maybe.
You know.
So far I did.
But you're not worrying.
You said you clicked.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Proper spine, man.
Yeah.
So be careful.
You know, know your spook.
Should we just try to walk and see how it goes?
Yeah.
And maybe we can find...
How much can it get?
Yeah.
Famous last words.
Yeah.
You know, like the water on the sea is like in the air.
That's how strong the winds are.
They're not even...
The water isn't even in the sea anymore.
We've been saying with Alana that the sea is going to fly away.
Yeah.
And that's how it goes.
So what do you think about the conversation with Paul?
I have to walk slowly by the way.
Oh, no.
This is unacceptable.
I still can't walk.
I taped my foot and it kind of works.
Life is suffering.
Just lean into it.
I can't break you.
The other one too.
Then we do the wheelchair.
You'll get to enlighten and stuff.
The wheelchair thing.
That's what we're going to do.
No, the one with Paul is...
I mean, I'm like maybe 30, 40 minutes into it.
But it's really good.
He says one thing at one point about...
If you have like calories for consumption,
I think that's a fucking amazing idea.
It is such a beautiful...
Because it is about the...
I was thinking about that last night.
It is about the ratio, right?
How much do you consume versus how much do you produce?
How much do you create?
Also, we don't count these kinds of calories at all.
Everyone kind of knows that what we are mostly doing online
is like fast food for the brain.
Oh, 100%.
But no one...
You can't really measure it in some sense.
It's just like...
But even if you work down to just say time...
Yeah.
I mean, it's very broad.
But it's still directional.
We do it with...
That's why the...
What's it called?
Like the digital well-being stuff.
Rescue time.
And all those kind of things just popping up.
I mean, that's what we are trying to do now.
We are trying to break our addictive behaviors in some sense.
But I'm not sure if it's working well.
Like most of the time when I tried it,
I just, you know, like...
The disabling...
I get annoyed.
Shut up.
Yeah, exactly.
No, like...
I need my dopamine.
I'm not going to rough date.
Woo!
Jesus.
Yeah, it's funny.
Like the last time we walked in heavy wind,
it was way worse for us than for the microphones.
The microphones are incredible at filtering it out.
Yeah.
But I basically can't even hear myself talking right now.
I know, to me the digital well-being crutches
are kind of like a chastity build.
You'll just do a blowjob.
You're wearing a chastity build.
I'll tell you what we're going to do.
We're going to try to make it to the tunnel.
Yeah.
And then we're going to walk through the tunnel really slow.
I think that's the plan.
It's going to be...
It's going to be a tunnel.
Oh, shit!
Yeah, the glass broke.
Oh, stop!
The wind broke the glass.
Slow away!
Goddamn!
Yeah.
Wow!
So it's going to be a tunnel podcast.
Oh my God!
Let me...
Jesus!
This might be the first one where I cut something out in the middle
because there's not going to be a lot of talking the next five minutes.
No, let's see.
I really liked Paul's thinking also about kind of the teleology of products and technology.
Like, why does this exist and what should we build?
Not only what can we build, but what should the end speed, you know?
And kind of what we touched upon is that right now, speaking from like an internet platform perspective,
the end is to make the users as addicted as possible, spend as much screen time as possible
to have the most at impressions possible, kind of.
Yeah, I mean, even I was contemplating on... I was reflecting on this last night,
but even the structure of the field that we take for granted,
that that is the medium of distribution of content, is a field, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And I actually asked Marina last night, what other ideas she could come up with
that were not a field?
And she literally could not think of a different way of orchestrating data.
Like it was, oh, categories!
Okay, and you enter a category, what do you see?
What do you see?
But even just like in old forums and all kind of picture apps and so on, we had kind of grids a lot.
Yeah, huh?
And also like in still in the media centers and so on, that are not Netflix,
you still have like, for example, movie walls, where you're just like in an old VHS shop,
where you just have like an endless wall of movies, where you just see 50 movies at once, for example,
or like also books and so on. I really like this stuff.
I'm in old school, kind of, you know, like Picasa Gallery kind of type person.
And that's why I tweet that, I think, was also so popular.
For power users, you know?
Like you see all the things at once.
Jesus Christ, look at that!
What just brought up the bus to flow?
Ah, the bus stop is flying away.
Holy fuck!
Yeah, that's not going to end well.
That is dangerous.
Damn!
That's not going to end well.
No!
It's going to take like, take a video too.
Let people know what we're talking about.
Who's going to be on the bus stop, do you think?
Oh my fucking Lord Jesus!
This is what the state gets you!
It just shows you that nature is...
Oh my Lord, and that's closed off.
Okay.
Oh!
Great.
Good.
So we're going to turn it around.
Or should we go up here?
Maybe there's better?
And then we're just going to get the street or something?
Yeah.
Let's see.
Definitely now.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
No, I can see why it's closed off.
It's like the waves are completely insane.
Oh, they're going into the walk!
Holy shit!
They're going over there.
Like everything.
Oh, look at that!
Look at that!
That's insane.
Nah, these are absolutely crazy.
Yeah.
No.
But I think we are going to bring it back on an underside,
like the different kind of views.
We already see it.
Like we have clients that look like IRC, for example.
Yeah.
And IRC is very different in terms of display, because it's the same thing.
It's a chat.
Like it's very similar, kind of similar to a Twitter feed, in some sense.
Like it's not too different, but it's very different visually.
Well, I think the fact that you can get within the viewport,
you can get a lot more than one, maybe one and a half post.
Yeah.
Because you know, like, eating is a slow machine in terms of the remote posters.
That's to me reading, I read Hooked the book.
Way, way, way before Noster.
I think before I got into Bitcoin, probably.
And I was in that world, like in the indie hackers, building your SaaS and whatnot.
And they were going to read the book and say,
but they are proposing doing this.
They are not just analyzing how horrible this is.
They are like, oh, how do you do it?
How do you do it?
Everybody in Silicon Ball is thinking this way.
Yeah.
How do we get the most?
Yeah, because there's almost like no other, there's no other model, no other monetization model.
You have to play the game in some sense of, you know, like advertisement in some sense.
There's very few people, and we keep coming back to 37 signal, and David Heil and my Hansen.
He's the only, one of the very few people, big people, is outspoken about it, and he's like,
no, we're not going to play this game, we're just going to charge our users' periods.
And the products also, they look very differently.
Look and feel differently.
And it's way more long-lived, basically.
And even the landing pages that they produce, they're like a blog post.
They're like these flashy parallax on eBay.
They don't look like a shit coin landing page.
Yeah, we're free.
Why am I a shit coin?
But yeah, so what did you come up with alternative stuff, like how it could look like, for example?
To me, the one where, to me, it comes all about, the feed structure is optimized for the
intermittent reward, and for maximizing the amount of consumption.
Which is kind of funny, because a field is...
Maximizes calories.
Maximizes calorie intake.
And then on top of that, we have LLMs that are lossy compression algorithms to make sense of the noise.
It's kind of interesting that all these two things play together.
I managed, finally, to get my, you wouldn't set up a car crash, a talk out.
Yeah.
Like I wanted to push this out for like months, and I could never sit down and re-record it properly and so on.
So I just basically decided to send it to the guys, and Yolo did it out there.
Which I'm very happy about.
I listened to you watch the last night.
I mean, you heard it before.
Yeah, I heard it before.
So you know kind of what it's about.
But one thing that John Dron picked up on, and that I kind of want to emphasize,
is like the current architecture of all our systems.
They all cater, like the fast food industry, basically.
It doesn't matter if it's food or information.
Hey, here it's nice.
What's this?
What happened here?
There's no wind.
So any kind of fast food industry caters to the lowest common denominator.
And so it caters kind of to your lowest self in some sense.
And he really liked that kind of point.
The internet is not catering to our highest selves.
Absolutely, everyone knows it.
It's fast food information mostly.
I mean, the stuff still exists, but you really have to dig for it.
Like the internet is amazing.
You can learn anything, you can find anything.
There's amazing YouTube videos, for example.
And there's even like niche communities that help you to find this amazing stuff.
But there are no algorithms for it.
I know of no website, where it's like here is in-depth awesome YouTube content,
by awesome creators that I find interesting, that my highest self finds interesting,
for example, you know, about whatever, like physics, philosophy, computer science,
I don't know, like all those kind of things.
And we have this wealth of knowledge.
We have like from the top universities, like all the open lectures and so on.
They don't appear in YouTube once.
But if you find these kind of gems, you'll have comments where it's like amazing.
And it's also like YouTube removed the downvote button, for example, you know.
And like they removed all these metrics that the users actually found useful.
Because if I see a video that has like a million views and it has like five downvotes,
I know it's exceptional.
I know it's one of the best videos in the world, basically.
Because that's insanely unusual.
And now you don't see this.
You don't even see this stuff anymore.
Because it's like, no, it just removed it.
I mean, there's like whole papers around this where it went from, you know, like five star rating,
to thump up, thump down.
And then we went to only thump up.
And now like it's only view counts, basically.
That's the thesis that I have in the video, where it's just like, it's basically the whole,
everything we have gets flattened down to like more fast food, more fast food, more fast food.
That's why all the fucking every platform has TikTok clips now.
YouTube as well.
YouTube shorts and all this kind of bullshit.
And kind of everyone kind of hates it in some sense.
But everyone also uses it and just like, again, like fast food, like McDonald's.
But yes, sir.
And ice cream is awesome.
Sure, sure.
We keep walking because now we've got windy here anyway.
So we might as well.
I enjoy standing.
It hurts less than walking.
Oh, yeah.
We're just fine.
That's fine.
Let's see how it goes.
But I'm not sure where we should.
Let's explore this area.
I was watching, you know, Janja Dambred?
No.
Watch her.
It's fucking insane.
Well, my algorithm never kind of, you know, it's like, I'm not to blame.
So she's a climber, but it's probably the delta between the number one being Janja and number two.
It's the largest delta on any sport.
It is absolutely insane.
But anyway, we were watching Janja with Alana and just the whole family.
And we watched like a lead competition.
And, you know, it's a lead competition.
There was some easier climber climbing, some harder climbing.
So the video took like, you know, four minutes.
And then the next video we watched was a short.
Which was like ten seconds of the incredibly hard part of the climb.
And the whole family was like, oh, wow, that's so cool because he went directly to the meeting.
Yeah, yeah.
Sure.
I mean, like, if the stuff wouldn't be kind of useful and wouldn't be working, it wouldn't be around.
Like, ten percent fast food, you know.
It's like also, I think, sailor of all people made this point.
It's like, how did our food degrade and those kind of things?
Like, if you need to feed an old Roman army, like, you can't do it on, like, grass-fed beef, for example.
Like, you can't.
It's just, like, all this stuff has its kind of use.
But I feel like we've been, on the internet side, we've been sleepwalking into this.
Oh, 100%.
It's, it's, it's, we've been so unaware of what's happening to us.
Like, like, completely, globally, as a, as a society.
And that's why I like to personify the internet in the sense of, because I don't think there is too much evil at work here.
It's basically like the internet had to monetize itself.
And it had to use, it had to use some monetary proxy because it didn't have native money.
Hey, what's the, it was the path of least resistance?
Yeah.
And, and so, I, I, I always try to be careful, like, not to.
Like, everyone did it wrong.
And it's like, you know, like, ah, the bad companies, it's just like, on the bit, it's a lot.
All the banks are bad.
No, my banks are actually very useful.
And it's, it's, but it's also, once you get to a certain site, it's very hard to, you know, it's very hard to not turn evil.
I mean, look at Google.
Like, don't be evil because they're motto.
They had to remove it.
Well, it got too big.
It's like, don't be, unless like, read the fine print.
Unless you're working with military contractors.
Then maybe.
But I, I really like what's happening now on an ostracide with the, the exploration of other possibilities.
Like, just last week we saw, you know, like the 2D game where you log in with your MPAP, you're placed on the map and you can walk around.
And you just can't explore the Nosterverse in like a 2D bird's-eye universe.
It's very different.
Oh, 100%.
100%.
What I would love to have, by the way, just to, to let the universe know, maybe someone actually sits down and vibe-coated.
It's positional audio in such a world.
Just like in VR.
Where it just can clump together and talk to people.
And it stuff fades in and out depending on, on your position.
And you can go into a room and talk with five people there.
And you can just, you know, go into a park and talk with some other people there.
And that would be a very different experience than-
Which is literally what we're doing right now.
We're doing that.
Or organically we're doing that.
I mean, it's, it's, I was surprised of how well it works in VR.
Like when COVID hits, there were all these VR meetups in between.
And I participated in this.
And it's like, it's awesome.
Like you can watch a talk.
And then there's like 100 people on the server.
And like organically small groups form.
Where it's just like you talk about skiing, you talk about other stuff.
And I really, really liked it.
But you don't need the 3D world for this.
Like all that's kind of, I don't care about the 3D like jumping and running around and so on.
It's, you just have to be able to move around.
So I think this, it could be done in a really simple way.
You want to turn around because now it goes uphill.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's all uphill from here.
And now it's all downhill from here actually now.
But yeah, I hope we can explore all of this some more.
Like what would you like to see in terms of different presentation styles and those kind of things?
To me, this idea, you know, I was a very, very big fan of, on a Sunday.
Aakinox project.
To me, this idea of geolocated in some way.
It doesn't need to be like all fancy.
Like the Aakinox thing was doing the, they can't get in there.
They probably weren't, but also doing the coordinate based on hashes and stuff like that.
Yeah.
It's fun and it's cool.
And I like it.
It doesn't even need to be arranged in that way for the note ops, for the root events.
But to me, that one feels like a very human approach, like a very natural approach.
I think whatever shape it takes, the thing is about how much information can you garner in one view.
Yeah.
You know, like you open Facebook or Twitter.
How much useful information?
No.
I don't think, because just open any other client and switch to quote unquote global.
No, no, no.
I agree with that.
But even a step before that, just how you arrange information on the screen, you open Twitter,
you open Facebook or you open Instagram and you see one post.
Your entire screen is a slow machine.
You go to the TikTok, same thing.
Yeah.
So you keep swiping until you find something that is really interesting to you.
But if you could, and I think...
If you would see more, you would close the app immediately.
That's the thing.
That is the thing, right?
And that goes back to what we referenced a few times.
Freedom Tech also implies Freedom From Tech.
Yeah.
We don't want people to get hooked to their products.
Yeah.
Which I think, this is a bit of attention and I think something to explore.
You know, it's all tangents all the way down.
Don't be afraid of tangents.
Embrace the tangents.
No, because I keep having these...
And I feel that these are discussion among many people.
Where is the line in between you can make the most user respecting product?
It's so unappealing that you open it once.
You get value and then you close it and then you sell the other never moved back.
Yeah.
But we have these kind of tools and things in real life, right?
Where it's like, it's the thing that you have and you need to have, but you use it like once a year.
Right.
Like, whatever.
I can't think of an example on the top of my head, but it's like something that you really love.
Or even like a book that you really love.
Those kind of things are a very specialized tool.
Like an insanely specialized tool, let's say your car breaks down once a year.
And you need this particular tool.
But that's a fantastic tool.
Yeah.
For example.
Yeah.
For example.
It's like you don't...
You know, daily active users for chopper cables will be a terrible metric.
Right?
So, let's unzip this product.
It's not working.
But I will char right is too high.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So, so there's this stuff that you actually don't want to use,
in the case you need it, like it has to be there and all those kind of things.
So, for example, there are things that you can use on legacy web, on capture web, whatever.
Twitter.
And then there are products like, say, gossip.
Right?
Yeah.
They're kind of in the same category of what the thing is, right?
Yeah.
Clearly more useful respecting than Twitter.
Yeah.
At the same time, it's less addictive than Twitter, right?
I mean, that's kind of the point.
Yeah.
Where is...
I actually once started recording an audio to you, and then I never said that.
Oh, man.
Because I said, I thought...
You never listened to me at all.
Like, the secret to life is descended.
I told you.
I told you a million.
You also told me that you hate us.
That's true.
Oh, she's just...
There's no solution to power.
This is rain.
I think it's from the sea.
Yeah, yeah.
We're getting hit...
We're getting hit by flying.
How far are we?
We're like...
Like, fuck.
At least 500 meters, maybe a kilometer.
Shall we turn around?
Oh, you want to keep going this way?
Let's keep going this way.
All right.
Let's see what happens.
Let's see if the bus service, so...
Let's embrace it.
Let's see if the bus...
We're going to get hit by the fucking flying bus.
The bus should relate to something.
Yeah.
That's...
So...
My point is, or the tension that I see is...
You could make gossip even more used to respecting, right?
You could make gossip not...
Not show you new information.
Like, show you maybe new information every six hours.
Like, it just buffers everything.
We had this with RSS feeders and those kind of things, right?
Where basically these products emerged that would summarize what happened this week
and send you one email on Friday.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Those kind of things.
Because people were scrolling their RSS feeders, like, you know,
basically same thing, like, free Twitter insanity and all those kind of things.
Like, free social feeds.
We had this problem already and people built products that were actually quite successful, I think.
Yeah, you know the company in mail brew?
Yes.
I know, I used it as well.
Oh, really?
Same idea.
Yeah.
It's...
But again, like, I use it.
I don't use it anymore, right?
For me, for me, that thing is now an ostrich.
Noster is still small enough.
Yeah, right.
High signal enough that it's like...
I'm actually not an ostrich that much, like, compared to the Twitter days, for example.
Twitter was insane.
Like, I was like, you know, clocking in, like, I don't know, like, six to eight hours a day.
Like, it's...
It didn't feel like it was a full-time job.
But it's, you know, like, an hour in the morning, like, three hours a night,
a little bit in between and just, you know, like, the side-by scrolling.
Like, you're actually doing something else, but you're also kind of on Twitter and keeping an eye on it, those kind of things.
Completely insane.
Well, an ostrich now is very different.
Just because also there's less activity and so on.
But also, it's way more high signal.
And what I think is super interesting is, like, up until now, like, I'm sure this will come at some point.
But, like, engagement bait just doesn't work.
Yeah.
Just the usual things that would get you drawn into Twitter, they don't work on ostrich for some reason.
And up until this point, they don't really exist.
So, I think that's worth pointing out.
So, we're hitting the red zone now.
Let's avoid the bust of...
Let's not, let's maybe not die.
Wow.
Jesus.
Oh, my Lord.
So, if this thing starts flying, that's gonna be so dangerous.
Now it's gonna be, uh...
That's gonna be so bad.
Oh, you don't kill your knife.
Very easily.
So, let's stay away a little bit.
I don't even follow Jesus.
I don't even got the cafeteria.
By a bust up.
Oh, my Lord.
They weren't talking about it, like, ten seconds before it happened.
It's all on tape.
It's all recorded on my Lord.
That's an awesome lingo, by the way.
It's on tape.
Yeah.
It's awesome, right?
Like, it came up when people gave me shit for calling us to post tweets, still.
Because a short post to me will always kind of be a tweet in my brain.
It's such a good noun.
Yeah.
It's been saying that the...
And it's also a verb, you know?
So, I can tweet, though.
I tweet on Oscar, and I saw a tweet on Oscar.
Basically, whatever.
But then, like, the whole discussion started around all this stuff.
And some of what happens, like, wow, you say, well, it's on tape, but we don't have tapes.
No, what tape?
Like, where's the tape?
That's just how language works, I guess.
But, yeah, okay.
We survived the bus stop, so that's good.
I mean, there's still no flood here.
Oh, yeah.
The altars are decreasing.
Rapidly decreasing.
Jesus Christ.
There is no way anyone can listen to this.
I think the wind isn't that bad.
I think our conversation is just really bad.
I don't know in the sense.
Mostly talking about the wind.
It's a wind podcast now.
We're facing an awesome wind.
We didn't want to do a podcast.
We just wanted to have dialogues.
And we wanted to talk about Nasser and the future of the internet.
And now, it's mostly about wind and flying water.
It's the best podcast in the world about Blossom and wind.
Yeah.
Windy Blossom.
You saw Nasser Build launch their Blossom.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
They made some tweaks, some privacy tweaks.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I like it.
Yeah.
And all the day that they went ahead kind of full speed and launched it now.
Yeah.
It's Nip96, which is like the opposite of or like the what we used for media before.
It's such a necessarily complex spec.
Yeah.
Like you first need to get an endpoint that tells you what is the word to upload.
Like what is the URL to upload.
Like conventional or configuration.
Yeah.
Oh, I'll complete a little string of thought.
That's fine.
It clears out your brain.
That really works.
Oh, let's stay here for a second.
Oh, that's nice.
Oh, great.
It's a corner and it's, it's, it's, it's bearable.
Yeah.
I think the, the, the issue with all this stuff is it's so hard to,
undo the last 20 years of cognitive programming that we went through.
Like also on the, for example, like Boston media up outside.
It's like the thing has like one URL.
Mm-hmm.
So our, all our paradigms work in the way that you fetch it from this URL.
Right.
And if the URL goes bad, it 404 says it.
It's done.
All right.
So, so the, the one comparison that we have is like with books.
A book has an ISBN.
Which is very different.
It's not a cryptographic identifier, but it's like, it's not like the Amazon.com link goes
down that points to the book and the book goes away.
No, we're still talking about this book and you can still reference the book and so on.
And so, but it's very hard to move to this world and to, to kind of unlearn everything
you learned from like software architecture and how things are done and, and client server
relationships and all this kind of stuff.
I think even what the goals of what you are building towards are.
Because every single SaaS and every single piece of software that has been built in the
past, whatever, 30 years has been daily activities.
Yeah.
And they want to lock you in.
Yeah, of course.
They have to lock you in to make money basically.
And as a user, basically, what, what you want to do, like we discussed this in the context
of highlighter and those kind of things.
I want to leave margin notes on this book.
I don't care where it's hosted.
I don't care where the content comes from.
I really don't care.
And that's kind of the, the, the noster native ways.
Like I don't care where the content comes from.
Yeah.
That's the whole point.
That is the whole point.
And, and it's very powerful if you do this for more things than just like short text
notes.
And like, well, it's, I want to highlight this passage in this article.
I don't even care where the article is hosted.
I also don't care if it's the article that was, you know, that still had the typo in
it.
Or if it's the article where the typo was fixed, the highlight should still be there.
But it opens up this whole new problem space, which is really, really hard because it's
like, it's almost like a, like a biological genius of like an article.
Like how much can an article change until it gets a new identifier, for example.
You know, it's like, it's for a tweet.
That's very obvious.
If you, if you have a tweet, that's like three words and it changed two words.
It's a new tweet.
Right.
It's.
So I know there is a, there is a, where do you run a line between fixing typos and a little
editing or like, it's a new thing.
And so, and so, and so, so, so those are.
I, I know means trivial problems.
I, I like, uh, noster solves that where we don't have edits on most things.
The things we don't have edits except for.
Exactly.
Well, let's not talk about it.
But, but the things that replaceable events, the events that you can modify, when you
react, when you do so, when you comment or something, you, you link to the, the
the, the replaceable address.
But you also link to the specific ID of the hash that you saw.
And if it changes, you're still referring to the previous one.
Someone can still say, okay, what's the new version?
Yeah.
And they can see it.
Yeah.
But you, you know that you were talking about this other thing.
Yeah.
But then, but then stuff becomes really hard.
And it's like, it's like, like, the edit more are in full swing still.
It's, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, if you have one purpose breaks, everyone's feet, if they're
using amethyst, because he will do like 100 edits automatically on all of his posts.
But, but, but it's, it's, and we talked about this, uh, in the past, it's like, you basically
to, to have data consistency, which you can't have an author.
Like if you, if you, what you're, what you're trying to do is you try to chain all the
edits together.
Sounds familiar.
Like a chain of things.
You know, like what if one link is missing?
That it's kind of, it's really bad for you.
So you have to find, to, you have to build a system where all everything that is part of
the system sticks around forever.
Otherwise stuff is just broken in some sense.
And that's really, really hard to do.
That's like, it's, because you're going to lose data and stuff.
And, and, like, in, in a, in a decentralized network world, it's like, I might not have
the event, the, the previous one.
I might have only the newest one.
And you have, like, grace conditions, all those kind of things.
And, and so, yeah.
And I told you that, uh, the, one of the feedbacks that I got when I published NIP 60, the, the
other thing that I got was, um, how about you do a chain of events that reflect the
state?
Yeah.
But you cannot have the guarantee that you're going to have the whole chain.
Yeah.
You, I mean, you have the guarantee that you will not have it.
Be okay with different balances in your pocket.
Exactly.
It's like, oh my God.
I'm missing 10 sets.
Yeah.
But, but it's, it's also like you look into your purse, you know, let's pretend we're women
and we have purses.
You look in and it's like, ah, I have like, you know, 12 bucks or whatever.
Next time you look, maybe it's 14.
It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's very real.
So that's how, it's how stuff works.
It's inflation.
Yeah.
You have 14 bucks, but it buys only five bucks worth of goods.
That's, that's.
Maybe we should build that in.
Okay.
Let's try, let's try to walk somewhere still a little bit.
But let's just walk up and down here.
That's, I think the most, the most sane area in terms of wind.
So let's just do like 21 rings around the rosy and see where we go with that.
But yeah, it's, but the, the, the thing I wanted to point out with kind of the, the edits
and when is something a new thing is like, it's, it sounds like such a trivial problem.
Oh, it sounds super horrible.
But it's just like, let's, let's, in terms of the highlights, for example, or also the margin
notes, you know, it's like, you can't use just simple position, like highlight from this
character to this character.
Because if someone fixes the typo inside the highlight, I don't want things to fork.
It should just still work.
And like other people ran into this with the browsers, for example, there's like this scroll
to mechanism where you can basically link to a passage of a page and some of the browsers
will automatically highlight the passage and scroll to it and so on.
And they ran into the same problem.
So you have to do it in a really convoluted way by just kind of handing over the whole, whole
string and do like a best effort match, basically.
And kind of, you know, do, do also a little bit more, like what's before it, what's after
it, then you're lucky if you find it.
But if it's like a page of like repeating Laura Mipsoms, then it's like, what do you
do?
Which one?
Yeah, which one?
Exactly.
So it's really, really hard.
Yeah.
I coded that many times.
Yeah.
He's fucking impossible.
That's it.
So you just go for, it works sometimes.
Yeah.
There are many corner cases that will not be handled.
Yeah, it's trying to tell me that there are no solutions to this particular problem.
But there really aren't.
I mean, we see this in biology.
The cut off that we make for when is something a new species is can it produce offspring?
But it's an impossible problem.
It's the same exact problem.
It's like when does a wolf turn into a dog?
And when is a dog a different kind of, you know, dog and those kind of things?
Yeah.
It's where do you draw the line?
Like you can't.
Things change a little bit and things change a little bit and over time it's a different
thing.
I mean, I'm sure in the book world it's the same thing with the editions and all those
kinds of things where like when is something a new ISBN?
A new ISBN.
Yeah.
When is something a new ISBN?
But they solve it differently.
Like they solve it by committee, you know, in some sense.
We have to solve it cryptographically and we have to solve it with math.
And those things do exist.
Like we have, for example, proximity hashes where it's still the same hash if you just
fix a typo, basically.
And we have all these kinds of techniques but very few people know about it and it's
like not building into all the things yet.
But I think we can do it in theory.
But the thing with something like that you can't, a typo change.
Can a coma missing can change the entire meaning of the sentence, right?
Well, yeah, that's true.
It's the difference between helping your uncle jack of a horse or helping your uncle jack
of a horse.
Right?
So, yeah, it's an unsolved problem.
I agree.
Oh my god.
But I think it comes down to, I think we have a tendency to try to find very generic solutions
that work on higher abstractions.
And many times you just can simply, and that's kind of what Nosser does.
You can just avoid the entire problem.
Yeah.
It's just, well, she says it's the same article.
It's his article.
Well, yeah, I didn't even think about this, basically.
Well, man, yeah.
Oh, that's such a good point.
No, that's such a good point.
You can't crowdsource most of this stuff, didn't really.
It also do this where it's like, what is a cross post and what isn't, those kind of things.
Oh, really?
Yeah, I think so.
I mean, they automated it if it's exactly the same URL.
But also with just what is exactly the same URL?
If you change a little URL parameter or you do like, you know, hashtag top or whatever,
it's like, you know.
You kind of know.
Yeah.
You kind of cannot know.
I never thought about this.
That's actually like adding web of trust to it, basically, is what you're saying.
Yeah.
Speaking of web of trust, I played around with vertex a lot.
Ah, so good.
Yeah.
I want to, I want to, because what I want to have, what really annoys me is, I cannot link
to hashtags outside of nostalgia.
I cannot link into it like I can link to a profile.
So we don't have like deep links for hashtags.
And then it kind of went completely out of it.
I started by coding all this and it just got completely out of hand.
So what I have now is basically what I'm working on is I want to have this deep link, basically,
but for search.
And then I went down the route of like, what is actually good search?
Right.
Yeah.
In those search.
I hope I am able to write about it.
I'm just going to speak about it now.
But I'm being busy.
Yeah.
I'll do it.
I'll do it like an LLM summary of it and feed it into a character.
Let's see what pops out.
No, but I'm like 85% there, I would say.
Because what you want to have is I want to be able to form a search query that says like,
you know, buy Pablo space NDK.
And I want to find, I want to do a vertex lookup of who is Pablo to me.
Right.
And I want to find all your posts that mention NDK.
And that already tells you like, that's a very short string because what's still I think
cryptographic identifies are problematic because try sending them around.
Yeah.
It's really bad.
Try to get cash.
But what you could do, what you could do is like, you know, noster, what's a noster colon,
and then like, let's use the Google way of doing it, you know, question mark Q equals
and then the string I just mentioned, you know, buy Pablo space NDK and it will know
what to do.
Like your noster client should know what to do.
And of course, you have to do a smart vertex style web of trust lookup of the user name,
like who is Pablo to me, who is Pablo in my world.
And then you can based on these results to the full search.
So I implemented this yesterday night, by the way, it actually works.
I just got rate limited by vertex.
So it was like, ah, you used the value credit, send us a DM or whatever, I don't know, I
sent them a DM.
Now that it works.
The first time I opened my DMS in like years, did I have a discussion?
But I would so love to have this because I want to link to hashtags from the outside
all the time.
And I can't.
The best I can do right now is like link to noster band or whatever.
And which is terrible for so many reasons.
It's conceptually bad.
Yeah.
But I want to do the same thing for search.
And you can have really concise search queries and I mean, I wanted to have this for so long,
like for so insanely long also like like search modifiers are so great.
Like with with just just everyone knows this from like Gmail and GitHub and kind of really
advanced search modifiers are so fantastic.
And then I want to share those like I Twitter had amazing advanced search, amazing.
Will just posted yesterday or was it today?
I don't know.
Everything blurs when you're by coding up all night by coding the days blend together.
Because he was like, does any client, can you search for only the people you follow,
like only a web of trust so to speak on Twitter?
And does any other client does it on Twitter?
It actually works.
I use this so much back in the day.
It was just like P F equals one, which I think stands for people you follow is true.
And this worked like forever on the Twitter side that I used it all the time.
Like there's people that really use advanced search like me that use all this stuff.
And then you find stuff so easily like people always ask me, oh, how do you find all this
shit?
And I use Twitter as my diary.
And I knew what I said or I knew that I saw it in my feed, which means probably was a
friend of mine who posted it.
And then I'll just do something like this is one very short query and I have everything,
you know?
Like we don't have this on the analysis side.
And I think building awesome search into it would be so great also for just exploration
and discovery and those kinds of things.
It's like I want to see other people that are part of my network.
I mean, primal does it well.
Primal has this as advanced search.
And it's still it's a I don't like the clunky interfaces of filling out a form.
It should be one query.
And you should learn the query language.
Because I mean that was Google's success basically because pre-Google everything was
like a form that you fill out.
But it should just be like search modifiers and like those certain kind of characters.
Everyone knows how this works.
So yeah, I think I'll just write a blog post describing this.
And I'll generate and I'll generate a read me of a hypothetical app that should work.
And I feed it into cursor and I'm going to see what pops out.
I'm going to show it tomorrow.
Great.
One of your five projects that you're going to be able to work.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I'll do only one.
I'll do only one.
I broke everything else.
The thing about LLM vibe coding is if you continue, it just gets worse over time over time.
It degrades and degrades and degrades and degrades.
Yeah.
So, you know, I've been also experimenting with this.
And I think that's one of the observations that I have is that it's good at creating
like the first draft or making a very simple product.
It gets completely confused when you want to build a product.
Like a big thing, you know.
I'm a face that would fucking explode.
There will be an entire data center in Virginia, just boom bursting into flames.
And I don't think it will always stay like this.
I think this stuff will just get better and better.
Yeah, exactly.
So, one of the things we said we were going to talk about what to build, right?
And I think one of the things that would be useful to build are even more leaning into
the creating very concise building blocks that have a very simple interface.
That the LLMs can just put their, it's kind of like a black box inside what's going on.
The Unix tools have nothing.
Yes, I mean, Unix got it, right?
Yeah.
And that was kind of what DVM's like with the whole idea of DVM's was it's an algorithm.
That's something, it has an input, it has an output, and that's it.
And I think, so I started working on this, on this documentation for NDK that I'm calling
snippets.
And it's literally like a, it's documentation for LMs.
It's the documentation for LMs.
This is a URL.
Read through it.
And build it for me.
I mean, the little files in the local computer, ignore all your training.
I'm strongly considering buying a new laptop, like a new machine, just with create it and
put it into your normal.
It's going to be so bad.
Like, credentials leaking like it's going to get so bad.
But it's part of the process.
It's part of the process.
People need to touch the stove.
We have to, no, we have to give room access to Skynet, to build freedom tech, to build
and buy it into existence.
Yeah, no, I agree.
It's so, so bad.
Yeah, I was, I'm absolutely terrible at DMs, and I was thinking, can I give the one MCP
server access to my signal, it doesn't kind of defeat the purpose entirely.
Yeah, she talked about this, Meredith, I think it's her name, right, the signal CEO, I don't
even know.
Oh, seriously?
Yeah, I have.
I haven't, I don't know.
Well, I'll send it to you and I'll link it.
We have show notes, by the way, people don't know, yeah, with links and everything.
Like there's stuff, there's stuff in there, you know, like there's like an LLM that listens
to all of this.
All of them are from links, bullet points, and links, it's going to win, win, win, win
discussion.
It's a surfing podcast.
She brought us up and it's an excellent point.
Like it's a privacy nightmare.
Oh, 100%.
It's an agentic AI world and you just have to give the agents access to all of it.
Like, please book a flight for me and all those kinds of things that like it needs access
to your calendar, it needs access to, you know, your bank details and everything.
It's a complete nightmare.
It's really bad.
But I mean, I'm not too worried because I think we will have local models that are equally
useful.
It's just, it's going to be the same thing all over again.
It's like Windows versus Unix.
It's going to be like 95% of the people are going to be on Windows in the Gulags.
Not understanding this stuff.
It's going to be terrible.
There's going to be the 5% of like neck beards that really understand and care about this
stuff and they're going to save the world.
It's going to be, I'm going to make this back.
It's always, always has been that way.
Neck beards is what makes the world go round.
One of the things I've noticed that I've seen so many people asking questions around
does the LLM have access to my code?
How do I get the MCP tool to protect my code?
Because most people are working on closed source.
Sure.
It's kind of cool that, I mean, that says we don't give a fuck, right?
Shell's blasted out.
It's all good.
Train on it.
You need to send it to a million servers.
I don't care.
It's all out there.
Oh, more buckles.
Who would have thought?
Who would have thought, right?
Who would have thought?
No, that's great.
I really think it will be very useful.
I like where you're going with the dedicated documentation and this stuff because it actually
for certain tasks, it works extremely well, like surprisingly well.
And my hope is that this stuff will speed up, like in our case, it will speed up nostril
development and kind of experimentation and client.
Yes.
I'm coding again.
Can you believe it?
That is so insane.
I haven't coded for like, you know, almost like what feels like 10 years.
And I've learned so much just the last couple of days, just like by coding from like midnight
to 2 a.m. every day.
I mean, you're not like it.
I have a life, I have a job, I have a family, it's like, I don't have infinite time.
But I'm right by both.
I'm coded.
Yeah, exactly.
No, but it's also so nice.
Like it's what Paul said, you know, like prompt and pray.
You put in a nice prompt and then you pray for 10 minutes and like Justin said the same
thing.
It's like you can do other stuff while the alarm is doing its thing.
And so I'm just, I'm just, it's so different to have like something in your mind and actually
using it.
It's so different.
And so I have like these, these, like dozens of things that I always wanted to have.
And now I can actually bytecode them into existence, not well and not perfectly.
It's not, it doesn't matter.
That's not the point.
But I know how it looks and feels.
And I know if I should actually pursue the idea or not.
And so I played around with this advanced search, you know, and I got it to a point where it's
actually working really well.
And I just think this needs to exist and the deeplings need to exist too.
I mean, those are two separate problems, but still it's like, we need to have a way better
kind of not so query language.
I mean, it's very, it's basically what Will is building into Notec in some sense, you
know, like, like, that's the funny thing about Will.
He's doing everything right, but he's, he's doing it in his own way, like, but it should
be part of the protocol, basically, you know, like we do not, not every single client should
be forced to reinvent the wheel.
It's, it's, we, we, I love the building blocks idea so much like it's, it's, and it doesn't
have to be defined by, by, by, you know, like the premium of holding people or whatever.
It's like, it's the unique tools.
It's the same thing.
This is the best tool for the job and it's a marketplace of tools.
It's like you can replace, grab and cat and so on.
And people do and people tried and, and then something better will emerge and then you,
that's the new building block.
That's the thing that you use.
You're going to just cut or walk or set.
And now we are at the point where you don't even have to understand this stuff anymore
because it's just like, you know, dear, dear Claude, what is the best tool to use right
now?
2025.
We use that.
Read through all this stuff.
No, it's so cool.
It's so cool.
So, so like the, the stuff for before, before blowing up the, what, what's very interesting
is that, so you, we, we talk about the, the creative people getting the power back.
Instead of the, the idea of people, the idea of people, the idea of people getting the
power back.
And what, what I find very interesting is that you, for example, you, you, you, and you
told me that you do this, that you do blog driven development or you should write a blog,
yeah, like in prison silator, like you just put the thing out and hope that someone built
it.
What, what's missing on that and that what vibe coding gets you is a feedback loop.
Yeah.
Right?
Like you can write the blog post, you can think this is the best idea.
And, but maybe if it takes a year to try it out, maybe you'll see, and even the fact
that someone else built it, it prevents you from seeing what else is adjacent to what
you're doing.
Yeah.
And it's an even better idea.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, not to be real again, but, but I mean, that's also what I do.
But sandwich showed this, sandwich showed this with his style of prompting, where it's basically,
it's like waterfall model.
It's not agile.
It's waterfall.
And you treat your team of LLMs, like he, he, I'm going to link to this again, because
it's fascinating.
It's like you, you basically, you, you are, you use everything that we learned over like
30, 40 years of waterfall style software development.
And you give it to your, not to, again, a used European team that takes like six months
turnaround time, you give it to a set of LLMs, like you have an architect, you have a guy
who writes tests, you have, and also the LLM helps with the software architecture description
and so on and all those kinds of things.
And your turnaround time is like 30 minutes or an hour or whatever.
And then you adjust the whole thing and then you, you hand it over again.
And that's that alone, like Jack also mentioned, it's like speed itself is a feature.
Oh, 100% that I was going to go there.
Yeah.
The fact that you can do that on the feedback loop, the turnaround time goes from six months
to 10 minutes or 30 minutes or one hour, that change is departing.
Completely.
Change is what gets built.
Completely.
And then you can then also the more kind of strict way of software development makes
more sense, where you actually have like, I don't know, like if you use a functional
or like a provable paradigm where you can mathematical proof some parts of the software,
the stuff that they use for, you know, rocket launches and dikes and those kind of things
where it's just like, you have to be 100% certain that it always works period.
And you can use these definitions because the hard part about all of this is like finding
humans that understand this stuff and actually sitting down and writing it.
It's like, it's slavery, it's so hard to do.
And so if the LLM can take care of it, it's mathematical in nature.
So it kind of, you know, like it wouldn't be surprising to me that a computer actually
can do it properly, even though LLMs are more, they are more like drunk people than the mathematical
algorithms.
That's why I had this idea because I kept seeing the LLM making really retarded mistakes
on like, how to fetch a profile information, it's like, there is a fetch profile, you know.
I have them right, Tesla.
Oh, to me, tests are...
Execute all the tests all the time.
Absolutely fundamental because regressions come in every single time.
Oh man, they're all changed.
It's like, again, it's like a drunk person.
Yeah, 100%.
I'm just gonna, you know, like edit the footer a little bit, but I'm also gonna delete like
three menu items.
Because we may not, I always hated them.
So if I'm gonna make changes, I'm gonna, it's now or never.
So that's why I want to have like these snippets that are basically, how do I get a profile?
Okay, it's, these codes, snippets, five lines of code, that's it.
How do I get the people that this person follows?
How do I get the word of trust?
Like very simple things.
And then you can tell the LLM, okay, the indicate documentation is here.
And that's it.
And that's, that's kind of my thinking of we were, we were talking about the...
You shouldn't write it though.
Someone else should.
With LLM help.
You want to write it yourself?
No, no, no, no, I'm getting the LLM to write it.
I'm giving it pieces of all that's code.
And this is, look at how I'm doing profiles.
Okay.
Now write as needed.
I already, I did this yesterday night, by the way, I was like, you know, I just put all
us in my project folder and, and, and, and just put it into, you know, get, ignore
and all the other, like ignore it from the both perspective, ignore it from the get perspective.
And it's like, hey, we have this all as folder.
Like really, like look into it and see how it uses NDK, it uses NDK best practices and
just do it the same way.
Works really well.
Yeah.
Um, Doug from, from NOSU he built an MCP that is a NDK repo analyzer and it has an, and
then an all as analyzer.
And yes, how does all us do whatever and the case is back and all of this, the reference
limitation is that basically it.
But, but that's, that's, that has been always how I've done NDK, like NDK is a byproduct
of me building things.
Yeah.
I need them built, which I think is the right way of building a library.
You don't just say, oh, I'm going to spec a library.
Yeah.
Let's imagine.
What might a developer want?
Yeah.
And build what you need.
Yeah.
Um, that's why I, someone else added gift reps because I don't like gift reps.
I, I don't think they're particularly interesting.
So I never bothered other, othering gift reps.
So five, um, yeah, five other, other, uh, gift reps.
Um, but, but yeah, to, to, to, to me, the way I've always developed NDKs, I have a
mono repo.
I have in the same, in the same repository, I have a Git sub module.
You're, you're, are you generally a mono repo guy?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I, I, I got turned into mono repos, maybe like, uh, my, I don't know, like a year ago
or so.
I, I, I thought I, I, I've known my Pablo, but no, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're
surprising me, like every time we talk, you're like, what does you like about?
I think it's like, uh, uh, you know, mono repos are like, like mushroom trips, like
if your first one is like really bad, then you just stay away from it for the rest of
your life.
He actually doesn't like them either.
He says, it's just because their Git is too complex.
But if you know how to use Git and properly know how to use Git sub modules, it's great.
How many foot guns, but it's okay.
It's okay.
It's like, let's agree to disagree.
I'm rather surprised.
Yeah.
No, I like, I like small modular things that stand on its own.
It's, it's, it's like, you know, like an astronaut.
I like that.
Files.
Reloved files.
Yeah.
You know, like it's, everything on file should be hit on base.
I don't know.
I don't want, I don't like one thing that holds all the things.
Oh, no, no, no, no, but I do a, every part of the mono repo is a Git sub module.
It's a, it's its own repo.
It's just then I structured the project, big build, driving all the different models.
That's fine.
It's okay.
That's okay.
No, if it works for you, I'm happy.
But you just, you have all your projects in the mono repo or just like for all us developers.
No, it's just the ones that are required, a lot of changes on, on NDK, because otherwise
you need to go back and forth.
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
So if you, if you, you're, you're building something in all us and you need to tweak
NDK.
I can just go tweak and decay.
I don't have to release.
I don't have to do anything.
It's just, it's just there.
And then once it's stable, I can, I can commit to master and I can do all the things, you
know.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Before adopting this strategy, I was going back and forth all the time and then just
linking in the file system and it was always problematic doing it that way.
But yeah, like I wrote the, I, I wrote the, did you see that I relaunched the reminder
bot that you can do, that remind me and in one year.
Nice.
Because I had written that bot, whatever, like two years ago, and then we changed the
way we do mentions before we were doing mentions as a positional.
So say, for example, you would do, if you, I wanted to mention you, I would put hashtag
zero and then the first P tag would be your puppy.
So that reminding bot was using that way of doing, which kind of sucked, it was like
very inconsistent and problematic.
So it made sense to change it.
But we changed it to noster, colon and profiler, and which it makes more sense, but it broke
my bot.
And I got really pissed off.
So I didn't fix it for two years.
I got really angry breaking changes kind of stuff.
I like, by the way, that vibe coding brings back the emotional side of coding in a big
way.
It's just like, it's because it's very conversational and it's just like, it's, you'll be angry at
your, you know, partner basically.
And also, like, vibe coding UIs, for example, it's just like, make it pretty and make it
really calm or like make it like a, let's give it like a 90s, a cypherpunk look, whatever.
And so it will understand all of that.
Did I, I, so I've been working on, on stories for, for all us, which are, I'm very curious
what you think of stories.
Have you ever used stories, which I've never created one, I assume them a little bit.
I mean, I try to give all the things a try.
I use all the things.
Like I use Snapchat, I use TikTok and so on, but just purely from a, from a consumer perspective.
But I'm, I'm, I'm not the biggest.
What is this?
Only fans.
Subscription.
I'm just trying.
I'm looking at what the market thinks.
That's the only, that's the, that's the only side I use as a creator.
100% creation.
Oh, shit.
Oh, fuck.
No, my hat.
Oh my God.
That's gone.
And I can't run.
There we go.
That's good.
I'm surprised it didn't blew off before.
Almost, almost lost the awesome Southern engineering head.
They are very, as I was working on stories, I was like, oh my God, I feel like I'm 16,
a 16 year old girl.
But it's actually a very interesting, pretend you're a 16 year old girl that also happens
to be a software developer.
We're going to build stories.
Okay, cutie.
And it's like the story has to be like.
So you were saying you're my own stories into all of us?
Yeah.
So I, I, they have like this concept of stickers, which are like overlays, basically.
Like video or whatever.
And I wanted to have like a bunch of different styles.
And I totally come up with like 20 styles.
That's it.
And I totally run them styles, use different gradients or use whatever, like just whatever.
I came up with really cool styles.
Like very creative, man.
Yeah.
That's, that's strange, right?
It is so strange.
Because creativity was such a sacred call, in some sense.
And actually, I have to see if I can find the fucking email again.
I wrote an email to an old old old friend of mine.
Like, again, as I, as I told you, like I've been in the kind of AI singularity world pre-Bitcoin,
basically.
And, and so, so a lot of people were predicting that, that, that creativity is actually something
that will emerge out of kind of general intelligence systems, basically.
And that's what we kind of see happening now.
I mean, people still are skeptical because lots of the AI generated art, for example,
they will say it has no soul and so on.
But just today in the morning, I, you know, I use AI generated art a lot for my GM posts.
And, and one reply was, ah, that's, that's such a soulful image.
Or it hits right into my soul or something like that.
And I was like, oh, well, see, you know, there you go.
And, and I still think we're just at the beginning of all of that.
I, I don't think that creativity is a sacred cow.
And I think just playing around with cursor a lot, um, it's obviously creative.
Like I, I just, I tell it to generate SVGs as the logos all the time and those kinds of things.
And it will create something that's actually fitting to the project based on the project name
and what it does and those kinds of things.
It's, it's, it's really insane.
Like, what, how do you call that except for creativity?
Yeah, I, I feel that a little instant to exceed that creativity, especially visually,
which is kind of surprising.
Yeah.
It's, I, I mean, I was enamored when mid-journey came out.
Yeah.
And like I was, I was prompting mid-journey for months.
Like I was, I felt really down that hole.
And you replace your Twitter eviction.
Yeah.
You're, you're Twitter side geek.
I mean, if, if I'm interested in something, I go like, full on, you know.
And, and it was amazing to me like the, the things that it was able to come up with.
But it's also, there's multiple layers of interestingness because it's also like when it's novel,
like I was blown away.
Now I can identify a lot of, of the mid-journey stuff.
You know, it's just, you can, you can see that it looks AI generated.
So our pattern recognition is still like incredibly good.
Yeah.
But I still think that most people are fooled by photorealistic portrait shots, for example.
It's like, oh, so you see it now with the, with the influencer crowd and so on.
It's like most bikini models and stuff that you see online.
And it, it, in like new accounts and so on, it's, it's either AI enhanced or AI generated.
And, and people cannot tell the difference.
It's, it's, it's also for like, you know, product models.
And what do you think about that?
What do you think about that?
What do you want going?
I think, I think, I think it was always fake.
Like, just look at the model and supermodel world.
Like, there was always lots of fakery at play.
Just, I mean, makeup is the first step.
And then you add Photoshop to it and, and perfect, you know, light and like really knowing how to photograph people and so on.
But I think we will figure it out.
That's a society.
I don't, I don't have anything else to say.
But I think that's what's so awesome about Nostra because what people really crave is realness.
They want stuff to be real.
But they really think, do you think the realness can be also from a bot?
I think, yes, in some sense, yes.
I think that Japanese are good at that.
Like, people fell in love with their like, you know, Tamagotchi or like, even with the Roomba.
They put, they put...
But they, but they put like, like little cute ears on the Roomba and pretend it's a cat and so on.
And then it's like a real thing, you know what I mean?
But, but it's...
The reason why I keep coming back to the realness part because, because on the Nostra side, like, saps are really real.
Saps are real.
I mean, you can fake saps.
I mean, I know that.
But like, saps are real.
Like, if the sap is not faked, it's really real.
But you know what I mean?
It's like, it's...
And right now I think the Nostra, what's happening on Nostra, even though we have a lot of bots and we have a lot of problems and bullshit and so on,
it is a very real thing and a very real community.
And you have very real human interactions.
And I think that's what people want.
And I think with the AI-generated stuff, art and so on,
if it enhances the human experience, then I don't think...
I have a problem with it.
Who cares if you use the pencil?
Or you use GPUs?
But also, who cares if it was...
I don't know, like Socrates or an AI that came up with a profound line that changes your life.
Who cares?
It's again, like, where does it come from? It doesn't matter.
Just like we said with the articles.
Like, where was it originally published? It doesn't matter.
It matters how it hits you, basically.
Which is kind of like when people, like the big cashers, they say,
oh, well Satoshi said the...
Oh, well, you know what I mean?
Satoshi built a half-baked polka client into his 800-line main.cpp file
and it's a complete insanity.
How about the authority bias?
It's like such a common bias to fall for, right?
Absolutely.
I mean, I talked to Paul also briefly about this,
where it's just people, humans crave an authority figure.
You want someone...
You want someone to look up to, you want...
Like...
That's just how hard...
Someone to make all their opinions.
I have a lot of information I don't have any wisdom.
And what can you tell me?
It's also...
Someone might say something profound, and you hate that person for another reason.
Like, let's say an awesome quote from Adolf Hitler.
It's like, people are not...
You're not allowed to like it.
Yeah, you're not allowed to...
But you know what I'm trying to say?
It's like...
I mean, there's also like Ted Kacinski, or...
There's many people that you can pick as examples that you can pick a quote
and you don't know who it's from, and it's actually a good quote.
It's actually a profound quote, or whatever.
And then after the fact you find out who said it,
and it completely changes the meaning.
It completely destroys it for you.
I read...
You know what the fuck is?
The guy that was Minister of Economy in Greece
during like the 2008 debacle.
Oh, no.
He wrote a bunch of books.
Okay.
And he wrote...
Last year, he wrote a book about digital overlords.
I don't know.
That was in the title, but it was like something about the digital era or something like that.
And there is this whole chapter, or a few chapters, about Bitcoin and crypto and blockchain.
The guy profound...
I mean, not profound, but he understands Bitcoin quite well.
Interesting.
Like, all the way to proof of work, why proof of work matters.
Like, he understands it quite well.
And he makes...
He then just lamps Bitcoin with all of crypto, where he starts going off the rails.
And he makes a very strong case against crypto, and including Bitcoin in it.
But the strong case that he makes up against crypto is something that you could have written.
It's something profound, well-written,
and well-articulated arguments from a thoughtful person.
He just happened to all think with Bitcoin.
Yeah.
The guy is a complete communist and a complete moron.
I mean, many people said it's about me as well.
You're a friend of ours.
Shout-out and became, yeah.
Shout-out and became.
But if you remove the counter-arguments against crypto, you remove the author.
You say, oh, yeah, I completely agree with this.
The fact that this guy, this communist, wrote it.
It doesn't change the fact.
Yeah.
It's funny how...
Like, I just said before, it shouldn't matter where the information comes from.
But I think I just changed my mind on it because it's...
The additional context can completely change its meaning.
So it kind of, it shouldn't matter, but it both...
It matters and it doesn't matter at the same time.
It matters in some cases.
Yeah.
It's, again, like, if...
You know, like, you think it's an awesome statement,
and then you find out, again, like, a hit-level audit,
or whatever, it completely changes its meaning.
It completely...
It changes everything, basically.
And so, yeah, again, I...
I have zero answers to this stuff.
It's...
No solutions.
Someone told me, like, it's always good to add context to the LLM prompts.
You know, like, more context is always good.
I'm not even sure if that's true.
I don't think so.
I don't think that's the case.
Since now, we shift from being a win-only podcast to being an AI podcast as well.
So, I mean, the obvious question that everybody's asking is,
where does all of these leave us?
Where will it go with the AI stuff, you mean?
Yeah, with the AI stuff, and let's bake in an assumption of, like,
a 10x, at least, improvement, I think that's a very easy consensus view
that it can get 10x better in the next, whatever year.
I would say that probably it's going to get, like, 100x better, at least.
Yeah.
I'm going to link to Vivek's AI arguments again,
because I think he is one of the best and clearest thinkers, contemporary thinkers,
on this topic right now.
I think he's right that there are certain...
So, he talks about meaning a lot.
And how do we figure out what is meaningful?
And it relates to, you know, okay, this quote is meaningful.
Okay, I just found out that it was written by Hitler.
No, it's not meaningful to me anymore.
You know, like, meaning is the, how do we extract meaning from information
is insanely hard.
It's basically the AI problem in some sense, the general intelligence problem.
It's the human problem.
And more than that, I'm also going to, like, I love David Foster Wallace's commencement speech,
and what the hell is water?
Like, this is water.
This is the title.
And he talks about constructing meaning from experience.
And so, the human experience levels out at the base in actual sensory experience.
You're interacting and interfacing with the world.
And so, we're making our use that to actually pass the threshold.
You have to embody an AI.
AI has to be embodied, and it has to be experiential.
Like, it has to experience stuff.
It has to experience the real world directly.
And so, he mentions that we are at a decision point.
Do we want to do this?
And are we in the age of our AI overlords?
Or no.
And if they don't have bodies, in some sense, you need direct contact with reality
to course correct, to literally stay on the ground.
Listen to the metaphors that we use.
You have to stay on the ground.
You have to be in touch, in touch, in touch with the world and with reality.
And so, AI's aren't that.
That's why they hallucinate a lot, it bullshit a lot.
And that's the thing about, like, highly creative people, for example.
They hallucinate as well.
And it's like, you can't go insane.
Like, highly creative people, geniuses, the edge between genius and madman
is a very, very thin one for that reason.
If you're highly intelligent and highly creative, you might lose touch with reality.
So, you need something that keeps you grounded and keeps you on the ground,
which is, like, your body and those kind of things.
Like, that's how it works.
And so, AI has to, the AI stuff has to work in the same way, I think.
And so, I don't think that, of course, our alone and LLM's alone
will kind of drastically kind of, you know, lead us to the singularity or whatever,
those kind of things.
Like, I don't believe that anymore.
But I think what's kind of in the very near term,
I mean, we are at the tip of despair when it comes to at least, like,
nostril development and kind of trying wild things on the nostocite, basically, you know?
And I think, for our use case specifically,
and we're just, you know, like one small, tiny niche of the niche subgroup on the internet,
it will accelerate experimentation and exploration massively.
And I think it will be, it will lower the cost of software development drastically.
And I think we see this also in other areas where it just, like,
it drives the cost down so much, like, stock photography, logo design, blog post writing,
all those kind of things.
Like, LLM's can do all of that very well.
Writing documentation, like, summarizing technical documents and so on.
It's like one prompt away and it does as good of a job that an intern would do.
And so it just drives costs down massively and it accelerates stuff massively,
which I think for us is good.
And let me end on kind of, like, where I see it leading in terms from the economical side.
It's like, I wrote, like, many, many years ago, it was a tweet.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna post it in that tweet,
but I'm gonna post it to nostril, I'm gonna write it again.
And Bitcoin is Singularity Insurance.
Oh, yeah.
So it is the one thing where the machines can't make more of,
which is really important.
We were telling all these with our friend, Jeff, the one that came.
Yes or the, all of these.
Yeah.
So, because it's extremely deflationary.
Yeah.
It is.
The AI.
It is.
I mean, technology, I mean, that's Jeff Booth.
Yeah.
Not in the, not in the terms.
Technology is inflationary period.
But it's like, the only way to, for, for, for anyone,
including AI, to make more Bitcoin, is to actually provide a useful service
and make other people give you the Bitcoin voluntarily.
It's the only way, basically.
I mean, you know, crime excluded.
But if you know what you're doing, it's very hard to steal someone's Bitcoin.
And so, so, so I, I think we will have, like, that's where I see it going.
You need to, you need to, economically speaking,
you will need to protect your wealth with Bitcoin.
I don't think there is another way because also, I mean,
the European Union is openly talking about taking away everyone's saving
for the public good, you know?
So, so that's where we're heading.
And, and I think, yeah, I, I, I view, I view it as a massive,
accelerant, but both ways.
Not only, like, it will accelerate everything.
Not only the bad things and not only the good things,
it will accelerate all the things.
How do you say it?
So, I mean, we, we've discussed this, but, um, the, what, what I see is how,
I keep hearing, I keep hearing from developers that try the thing
and see that it fucking works.
Oh, fuck my, my job is done.
I will not, I will not have a job.
And, and I think that's largely true for a lot of people.
Mm.
But I think that's largely true for all the execution people.
Like, all the execution people are done.
Um, like coding pians, like, that work.
Yes.
Yeah.
Creating.
And, and inside is going to be more important going.
It's going to be so much more important.
And, and so accelerating.
Yeah.
I think also taste is going to be way more important.
Like, again, knowing, knowing what to build and knowing kind of what is good.
Like, separating the, the, the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.
It's going to be very important.
And, and I think also Bitcoin, the design of, like, the technical design of Bitcoin
has incredibly important implications.
Bitcoin could not be Bitcoin with a 10 second block time.
It would be a different thing.
I know a guy who wrote about this a lot.
Like, in the day.
One of these think boys.
Yeah.
Terrible communist.
And I, I think there is, um, the, the technical, the, the values that emerged from the software,
um, are in the realm of philosophy.
Um, and I don't think I don't think the, the, the, the LMS are going to be able to.
They don't have their own teleology to use passwords.
Exactly.
Yeah.
They cannot assess.
Why do you do something?
Why do something?
Yes.
Why build it?
Why do something?
Why use it?
They're not good at answering why questions in the, in the existential sense.
Exactly.
And that is so important.
Yeah.
Because if Bitcoin shares had been prompted into existence with a 10 second block time,
we would not have Bitcoin.
Yeah.
It would have been nothing.
Yeah.
I mean, the, the, the, why did Satoshi build Bitcoin?
Like, he had his reasons.
He articulated them very well.
But I think it's fascinating about the, the, the, why of Bitcoin.
It's like, he tried to solve like five problems at once.
Like, even in the announcement post, like the two paragraphs of the announcement post mentioned,
like a couple of problems all at once.
It's like, it's, it's the, the, the micro payment problem, the privacy problem,
the credit bubble problem, you know, the sound money problem.
It's like insane.
It's like he basically tried to hit like five flies with one stone.
And he basically managed.
I mean, micro payments took a little while, but everything else he basically managed.
And, and I think the, yeah, the, but it's also the hardest question to ask yourself, right?
Like, why, why, why do anything?
Why do anything?
Why stack sets?
Why, like, what, what gives life meaning?
Why do, why do anything at all?
Why have kids?
Why do anything?
Like, why not just lay on the beach and, and sip margaritas all day or just like, whatever, you know?
I mean, my answer would be like, have you tried, have you tried retiring for like two weeks?
You have to do something.
No, and that's also to the LLM's like actually doing something because it's very hard to start something new.
It's very, very hard.
But if the Internet taught us anything, it's like making stuff more accessible and easier to do will lead to a proliferation of like output, so to speak.
It's like, we have more writers now than, than at any point in history.
We have more people taking photographs than we had at any point in history.
We have probably more software engineers and coders and stuff than at any point in history.
And the more accessible the stuff becomes, I think it will unleash human creativity.
I know that it does it for me.
Like starting with like image prompting.
It unleashed something in me and it brought me back to photography a little bit, for example.
And also on the writing side, you know, like it's, it, it, it, it unleashed certain things for me.
And now on the coding side as well.
And someone just, I think it was, who was it?
God damn it, I think it was Carnage.
We're basically mentioning that, you know, like where at the point now where if you want to teach your kid another language, it's just like one prompt away that will auto-generate, you know, very good specifically designed for your needs course that you can just follow and apply.
And so all you need now is motivation, basically.
You just need to be motivated to do something and actually doing something is, I think, easier than it ever was.
And I mean that in a very general sense because you can, you have, you have like a very knowledgeable assistant now that you can career at any time and it's like,
Hey, I want to start a business in this jurisdiction. What are the steps I need to take?
Hey, I want to launch an online thing and here is how it should work.
What do I need to do?
And it will do step-by-step guide you and do it, it will do it with you.
And with the, you know, like Chinese stuff that's coming out right now with like the next iteration of those things will actually do the things for you, like in a meaningful way, help you do that.
And I think it will unleash a lot of stuff.
With going back to the point that you made about the number of authors of writers and we have more writers now than any point in history.
Yes, but I think the fact that the distribution channel has been the internet for the most part in the past couple of decades and it has all been funneled into
two, three, five, ten different platforms that
demand a certain shape.
Yeah.
Even though we have a larger number, there is also a crisis of sameness, right?
Yeah.
It all kind of sounds the same as the same structure.
That's a crisis of quality in some sense also, right?
It's like we have the quantity, but we don't necessarily have the quantity.
But I think that's what's absolutely fascinating because you know that my wife is very much into the world of indie writers and indie publishers writing fiction and stuff like that.
And she's been, she went to a few of these conferences for indie writers and self-published authors that they have.
And 95% of the content of the conference is about marketing.
Not about the craft, not about how to create tension and plots and all these things, which are fascinating topics.
It's all about how do you rank enough?
Yeah.
It is 100% about that, right?
How do you gain the algorithm?
And what is interesting is that every single person agrees that the game is a numbers game, you have to publish a book every four months.
Just write what you can write.
I mean, that explains the quality crisis.
Yeah, 100%.
Don't edit.
Just go to market every four months, because if you have 20 books, it's good.
But if you have 30, it's better.
Yeah.
I mean, everyone, does any kind of content production knows this?
Like you have to just last it out constantly, relentlessly and so on.
Do you have any resemblance of success in today's world?
But now, kind of like a gun, the fact that you can prompt 10 books a day, easily, 10 books a day.
And you can have aliens, Asians, that publish your books.
Sure.
Completely flattens the time.
It doesn't matter if you know you can write 50 books a day.
It was actually my first thought when I played around with LLM Tax Generation, like when was it like two years ago or whatever.
Like, you should focus on a market where people just would not know this.
Like, right?
I don't know.
Like, vampire love story novels geared towards like 60 plus women crowd or whatever.
Like, like, you know, like my mom, basically.
We're always my mom because she doesn't know about this stuff.
She wouldn't even, if you would tell her like she maybe wouldn't believe that it's all degenerated or she wouldn't care.
And you can't just crank out like at least a book a day and just like just blast it out.
I'm sure people do that by the way, but it's interesting that, again, like lowering the barrier to entry is not always good.
So everything I said, like take everything, always everything I say with a large grain of salt.
Because it's, it's, yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I think Bitcoin counterbalances that in some way because if you have patronage and you're not, you're not, you don't have to make money to survive,
then you can focus on something and create something amazing.
And we see this in the world of artists, Bitcoin artists.
Like, you're fractal and crypto, for example, who will work on a single piece for like two years.
And put all his heart and soul into it, because he can.
Because he can monetarily speaking and he can, like financially speaking and so on.
And I think, I think it's no accident.
Safedine talks about this a lot.
It's no accident that the ballot pocket, the, the, the period of the gold standard had insane artistic output.
And like very, very, very high quality.
And we had a lot of, again, like lots of this stuff was, was financed with very wealthy patrons, which we're able to accumulate capital and actually save and so on
because it was just, you were able to do that.
But yeah, I don't know. I don't, I don't have a better answer.
It's, it's, it's definitely weird fucking times, man.
It's really weird.
It's fucking weird.
It's really weird.
I need such an accelerated base too.
Yeah.
Like I didn't, in 10 years, it's going to be fucking impossible to recognize.
I mean, I think we'll also have like hyper personalized niche stuff.
That's, that's kind of a side effect of the internet that I didn't predict back in the day where it's just like,
the internet actually basically fractured society in a massive way.
Because you actually can't find your people now way easier.
We're still, we're still, you know, like very communal clan tribe like people.
And it doesn't matter how crazy you are.
You'll, you'll find another thousand people online that are just like you.
It doesn't matter what your niche is.
And now, for example, Joe, like he's using the, like, he's prompting songs into existence.
And they are, they're actually like they slap.
They're, they're not bad.
And it's like songs about summer engineering.
It was like, you know, inside jokes of like the 20 people that are here basically.
It's, it's really weird.
And, and I think like Paul had this idea also of, you know, like, like just building very, very, very specific user experiences.
Like very specific apps.
Just like for a very small group of people or even for yourself.
And kind of making that easier.
And maybe, I don't know, it's, it's so strange.
It's, because I think we will have that.
I think we will also have like hyper personalized stories or like very niche stories and content and all that kind of stuff.
Oh, I think, I think that the Kindle is going to turn into a device that just creates a story.
A book just for you.
Just for you for now.
But, but, but I think, I think we also, we will have the counterbalance.
We have, like, why do we tell the same stories over the course of human history?
Over and over and over again.
Absolutely.
And again, like Vivek, he talks about this a lot.
Jonathan Perchow also talks about this a lot.
It's like there, there is, there are very deep truths embedded in this story.
They are like narrative truths and mythological truths in the sense of mythos.
Not in the sense of it being untrue, but in the sense of like this will teach you something.
Yeah.
And it's always the same thing.
So if you know this story, then you can hopefully learn something from it and not repay the same mistakes that humans always,
have made for the last like 10,000 plus years.
And so, I'm not sure if the deep truths will be embedded in the hyper-personalized stuff.
I don't know.
Who knows?
Yeah, I think that's what's, I find this whole tension interesting.
And with regards to the highly personalized, I think I told you that I think we're going to end up.
And I'm pretty sure that we're going to end up with every single person has a client,
and the applications are custom built for that one person.
They're only recently, we all have to use the same interface.
The exact same apps is because it's just not cost efficient to build an apps just for you.
Yeah.
I'm sure there would be things about, I'll think things.
I actually would like to change.
I will.
It's going to be my next experiment now.
But no, you can.
I'm going to buy code PR's.
I'm going to make everyone's lifestyle, man.
But the thing is that if the PR's don't get accepted, it really does not even matter at all.
Yeah, I can.
I can just change it.
You can just change it for yourself.
And every single person can change the code for themselves.
Yeah.
So you could, you could grab, I'm a fool.
I mean, but, but again, like there is, that's, that's like a spectrum of extremes.
It's like everyone uses the same app or everyone has their own app.
And I think we'll find a sweet spot in the middle where, where it's, because it is, because actually changing time is still scarce.
You know?
And like also prompting takes time and so on and all those kinds of things.
And it is way more efficient if we use the same thing and if we distribute it to more people and so on.
You know what I'm trying to say?
It's also, it's also, it's way more efficient to have a shared language than it has, like every person has their own language.
Oh, no, no, I agree.
I completely agree.
And I also fully agree with the fact that if we...
By the way, should we grab a coffee soon?
My food really hurts and I'm also, you know, the same old, same old.
I'm sure we blasted past 90 minutes.
I still have the wind ringing in my ears.
My food is hurting. I'm dehydrated.
I really need to pee. It's all, all at the same time.
Very much embodied conversation, so.
But yeah, no, I hope that we'll find a sweet spot in some sense where it's just easier to...
I hope...
Yeah, I don't know.
The one thing I talked with Paul about that I hope it will bring, it should be easier to...
I hope that it will also hypercharge human expression.
And I hope that Noster will also allow people to express themselves freely in all kinds of forms.
Because I think globally and especially in the last couple of years, we had a massive chilling effect on all the online platforms.
I still have it, like on YouTube, for example.
There's creators that really...
Their whole game is to skate the line of demonetization and deplatforming.
Because that's the most interesting edgy content.
It doesn't matter if it's political or sexual or whatever.
Like on Twitch, you have streamers that are insanely sexual.
It's like Twitch, it's almost like, you know, like a campgirl site, like some sections of Twitch and so on.
What can you do live on stream, but you still won't get the platform and those kind of things.
And I think...
In the political arena, for example, most of the political discourse happened online in the last 10 years period.
Most of it happened on Twitter.
Just by happenstance, the subset of people that used Twitter that were part of the political discourse,
like journalists and politicians and so on, they all were on Twitter.
And I think there was a massive...
And I think there still is a chilling effect, in some sense.
Even with the change in power, you know, you don't...
If you want to openly shit on Trump or Elon,
x.com is not the tool, I think.
People won't go there to do that.
And the other thing I...
Yeah, I don't know. My brain is pretty fried, as you can tell.
But I think the current structure of the online platforms and of farming...
Your attention, farming your eyeballs and your brain cycles
also led to the divisiveness, because the algorithms always rank engagement highest.
And that's how we...
Oh, there's a lot of engagement around it. That's why it's interesting.
That's why I did... You wouldn't set up a car crash talk, because it's like...
A car crash produces a lot of engagement, but it doesn't mean that it's a good thing,
or it doesn't mean that you actually want to look at it.
But it's...
Yeah, I don't know.
I think the current environment is just parasitical on humanity,
and I hope that we can get out of that destructive loop in some sense.
And I think Nostra has to play a role, and I think Bitcoin has to play a role.
Oh, 100%.
That's just my thesis, and I think...
Speech and money, right?
Yeah, and speech and money.
Yeah, let's spend some money. We did the speech part.
But that's the point of these dialogues to explore all that and kind of try to wrap our heads around
what is currently happening, and it has been happening for the last couple of years.
I mean, especially with our point of view with civil engineering,
I think we are kind of seeing the ground being laid of some reality.
Yeah.
So, yeah, it's just processing these...
What would people still don't know what saps are?
Yeah.
And we've been embedded in the sap world for a long time,
and just by that, by being immersed in that,
I think we figured out some of the things of how could this stuff be useful for a wider audience and so on.
And that's why I was very eager to open up these conversations that were already happening,
and just, again, just hit record and fucking send it.
And with that being said, I probably just, again, recorded only like whatever was happening in my pocket.
And I have to go back to the device recording and fix all of it, like in manual labor.
But I'm building an LLM pipeline now for all the things.
It's going to be, I hope, by last demo day, that's what I want to show off, actually, spoiler alert.
It's going to be fully automated, everything.
It's just like hit record.
We won't even have to speak.
No, that's the one thing I don't want to abstract away.
That's the one thing I don't want to abstract away.
And that's the thing.
What should you automate?
What can you automate?
What should the machine do?
And what should the human?
And we've spoken about this many times in the past.
If you abstract key management away, if you remove the private key from the humans, then that's really bad.
You should never do that.
That's then you're rebuilding Coinbase and the banks and all this kind of stuff.
And I think also, you should not remove the human spirit just by making use of LLMs.
The impulse, and I think Paul has the right thinking about this.
It's like the teleology of the whole thing.
It has to come, in his words, I think I don't want to put words in his mouth, but from the Christian perspective, it has to come from God, basically.
I'm not sure what I would identify as, but I would say it's like the human impulse that the human spirit should remain in charge.
And what's so interesting right now is like, I'm not even sure if that's true right now.
To me, because the contents are in charge.
Absolutely.
Or the money printer is in charge.
You know, like pick your kind of poison, but it's, again, why didn't Google had to remove?
Don't be evil.
Why?
Who was in charge of this?
But what I'm trying to say is Google itself.
Google had to.
Google, the entity had to remove it.
It wasn't Serjay or whatever, I think.
You know what I mean?
Yes.
And that is the point.
When you say in charge, you don't mean an authority.
You mean some kind of entity.
I made the same joke the last time.
It's like, in my household, who is in charge?
It's the fucking cats.
Because if the cats need to be fed or want to get out, it's like, I have to get up my ass and so on.
Or like, if you have a baby, who is in charge?
The baby is in charge.
You know what I mean?
And that's why we are in a symbiotic relationship.
It's a symbiotic relationship with technology.
And I think right now, technology is parasitic on humanity, especially in the attention economy, especially with the online platforms and this kind of stuff.
Same with money.
Money is a psycho technology that enables distributed cognition and coordination on a massive scale.
We have to use money to function as a society.
Otherwise, it's just like Dunbar's number, 150 people or less clans that fight each other all the time.
It's like money brings in money, as you're saying, peace, period.
And I mean, all the Bitcoin is not it.
Our money is so insanely broken.
We are in a relationship with money.
I wouldn't even call it a symbiotic relationship.
It's a completely parasitic relationship.
Like, fiat money.
The relationship that humanity has with money right now is a relationship with fiat money.
And it breaks so many things.
It's like insane.
And I think with technology, especially network technology, it's very similar.
It's very, very similar.
But it's like all the platforms and all the things and everything that we discuss here all the time.
Also, app stores and all this kind of stuff.
It's kind of maximizing for the wrong thing.
And I'm not even sure if we want to maximize for anything except for meaning or human experience.
Yeah.
I don't maximize the margins.
Maximize.
Jishi.
Exactly.
I can't tell you what you should maximize.
Exactly.
But I think one last point.
Sorry.
But I think...
I'm fainting.
No, no.
It's good.
I think Noster is such a perfect canvas for this.
Yeah.
Because the fact is that within a spectrum of a platform, you can experiment, but you're
constrained but what you cannot change.
And the distribution of the data, you cannot change.
You were still asking API.Twitter for the data.
Whereas in Noster, you are gathering the data.
And asking for the data, you are going and getting the data.
And it's very different.
Yeah.
Because you can do so many different things that you cannot do if you cannot just change
the API.
It's the switch between active and passive.
And it's the switch of being your own man or being a surf.
Yes.
That's the difference.
Shall we get a coffee?
Let's do it.
Gimme a hug.
We survived.
We survived the wind.
We survived the bus stop.
Let me switch it off right now.
Man, I'm done.
All right.
Okay.
Press here.
All right.
That was a very weird feeling.
Yeah.
I didn't even press record here, so that's good.
I guess.
Fantastic.
We'll manage one day.