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Good morning.

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How are you doing?

3
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Good.

4
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Nice to see you brother.

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Likewise.

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How are you?

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Jesus Christ.

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The wind is going to be fun.

9
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Oh, jeez.

10
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It's getting bad.

11
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It's getting bad.

12
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It's getting bad.

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Oh my God.

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Yeah.

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I was looking here listening to you with Paul.

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Yeah.

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And the last hundred meters I could not even hear anything.

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Yeah.

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No, it is proper windy.

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I'm not sure how we should do it.

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We're rolling by the way.

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Jesus.

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Just so you know.

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Oh, wow.

25
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Okay.

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This is already part of the...

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I don't know.

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I can...

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The only things I cut is in the beginning and in the end.

30
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Maybe.

31
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You know.

32
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So far I did.

33
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But you're not worrying.

34
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You said you clicked.

35
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Oh, wow.

36
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Okay.

37
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Proper spine, man.

38
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Yeah.

39
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So be careful.

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You know, know your spook.

41
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Should we just try to walk and see how it goes?

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Yeah.

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And maybe we can find...

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How much can it get?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

47
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Famous last words.

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Yeah.

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You know, like the water on the sea is like in the air.

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That's how strong the winds are.

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They're not even...

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The water isn't even in the sea anymore.

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We've been saying with Alana that the sea is going to fly away.

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Yeah.

55
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And that's how it goes.

56
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So what do you think about the conversation with Paul?

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I have to walk slowly by the way.

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Oh, no.

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This is unacceptable.

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I still can't walk.

61
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I taped my foot and it kind of works.

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Life is suffering.

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Just lean into it.

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I can't break you.

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The other one too.

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Then we do the wheelchair.

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You'll get to enlighten and stuff.

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The wheelchair thing.

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That's what we're going to do.

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No, the one with Paul is...

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I mean, I'm like maybe 30, 40 minutes into it.

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But it's really good.

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He says one thing at one point about...

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If you have like calories for consumption,

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I think that's a fucking amazing idea.

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It is such a beautiful...

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Because it is about the...

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I was thinking about that last night.

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It is about the ratio, right?

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How much do you consume versus how much do you produce?

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How much do you create?

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Also, we don't count these kinds of calories at all.

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Everyone kind of knows that what we are mostly doing online

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is like fast food for the brain.

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Oh, 100%.

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But no one...

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You can't really measure it in some sense.

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It's just like...

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But even if you work down to just say time...

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's very broad.

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But it's still directional.

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We do it with...

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That's why the...

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What's it called?

96
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Like the digital well-being stuff.

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Rescue time.

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And all those kind of things just popping up.

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I mean, that's what we are trying to do now.

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We are trying to break our addictive behaviors in some sense.

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But I'm not sure if it's working well.

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Like most of the time when I tried it,

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I just, you know, like...

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The disabling...

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I get annoyed.

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Shut up.

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Yeah, exactly.

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No, like...

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I need my dopamine.

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I'm not going to rough date.

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Woo!

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Jesus.

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Yeah, it's funny.

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Like the last time we walked in heavy wind,

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it was way worse for us than for the microphones.

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The microphones are incredible at filtering it out.

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Yeah.

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But I basically can't even hear myself talking right now.

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I know, to me the digital well-being crutches

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are kind of like a chastity build.

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You'll just do a blowjob.

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You're wearing a chastity build.

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I'll tell you what we're going to do.

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We're going to try to make it to the tunnel.

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Yeah.

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And then we're going to walk through the tunnel really slow.

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I think that's the plan.

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It's going to be...

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It's going to be a tunnel.

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Oh, shit!

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Yeah, the glass broke.

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Oh, stop!

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The wind broke the glass.

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Slow away!

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Goddamn!

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Yeah.

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Wow!

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So it's going to be a tunnel podcast.

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Oh my God!

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Let me...

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Jesus!

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This might be the first one where I cut something out in the middle

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because there's not going to be a lot of talking the next five minutes.

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No, let's see.

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I really liked Paul's thinking also about kind of the teleology of products and technology.

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Like, why does this exist and what should we build?

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Not only what can we build, but what should the end speed, you know?

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And kind of what we touched upon is that right now, speaking from like an internet platform perspective,

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the end is to make the users as addicted as possible, spend as much screen time as possible

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to have the most at impressions possible, kind of.

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Yeah, I mean, even I was contemplating on... I was reflecting on this last night,

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but even the structure of the field that we take for granted,

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that that is the medium of distribution of content, is a field, right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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And I actually asked Marina last night, what other ideas she could come up with

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that were not a field?

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And she literally could not think of a different way of orchestrating data.

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Like it was, oh, categories!

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Okay, and you enter a category, what do you see?

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What do you see?

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But even just like in old forums and all kind of picture apps and so on, we had kind of grids a lot.

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Yeah, huh?

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And also like in still in the media centers and so on, that are not Netflix,

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you still have like, for example, movie walls, where you're just like in an old VHS shop,

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where you just have like an endless wall of movies, where you just see 50 movies at once, for example,

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or like also books and so on. I really like this stuff.

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I'm in old school, kind of, you know, like Picasa Gallery kind of type person.

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And that's why I tweet that, I think, was also so popular.

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For power users, you know?

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Like you see all the things at once.

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Jesus Christ, look at that!

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What just brought up the bus to flow?

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Ah, the bus stop is flying away.

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Holy fuck!

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Yeah, that's not going to end well.

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That is dangerous.

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Damn!

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That's not going to end well.

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No!

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It's going to take like, take a video too.

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Let people know what we're talking about.

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Who's going to be on the bus stop, do you think?

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Oh my fucking Lord Jesus!

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This is what the state gets you!

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It just shows you that nature is...

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Oh my Lord, and that's closed off.

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Okay.

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Oh!

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Great.

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Good.

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So we're going to turn it around.

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Or should we go up here?

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Maybe there's better?

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And then we're just going to get the street or something?

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Yeah.

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Let's see.

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Definitely now.

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Oh, wow.

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Okay.

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No, I can see why it's closed off.

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It's like the waves are completely insane.

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Oh, they're going into the walk!

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Holy shit!

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They're going over there.

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Like everything.

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Oh, look at that!

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Look at that!

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That's insane.

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Nah, these are absolutely crazy.

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Yeah.

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No.

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But I think we are going to bring it back on an underside,

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like the different kind of views.

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We already see it.

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Like we have clients that look like IRC, for example.

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Yeah.

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And IRC is very different in terms of display, because it's the same thing.

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It's a chat.

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Like it's very similar, kind of similar to a Twitter feed, in some sense.

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Like it's not too different, but it's very different visually.

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Well, I think the fact that you can get within the viewport,

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you can get a lot more than one, maybe one and a half post.

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Yeah.

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Because you know, like, eating is a slow machine in terms of the remote posters.

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That's to me reading, I read Hooked the book.

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Way, way, way before Noster.

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I think before I got into Bitcoin, probably.

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And I was in that world, like in the indie hackers, building your SaaS and whatnot.

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And they were going to read the book and say,

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but they are proposing doing this.

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They are not just analyzing how horrible this is.

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They are like, oh, how do you do it?

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How do you do it?

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Everybody in Silicon Ball is thinking this way.

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Yeah.

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How do we get the most?

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Yeah, because there's almost like no other, there's no other model, no other monetization model.

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You have to play the game in some sense of, you know, like advertisement in some sense.

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There's very few people, and we keep coming back to 37 signal, and David Heil and my Hansen.

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He's the only, one of the very few people, big people, is outspoken about it, and he's like,

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no, we're not going to play this game, we're just going to charge our users' periods.

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And the products also, they look very differently.

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Look and feel differently.

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And it's way more long-lived, basically.

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And even the landing pages that they produce, they're like a blog post.

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They're like these flashy parallax on eBay.

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They don't look like a shit coin landing page.

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Yeah, we're free.

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Why am I a shit coin?

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But yeah, so what did you come up with alternative stuff, like how it could look like, for example?

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To me, the one where, to me, it comes all about, the feed structure is optimized for the

252
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intermittent reward, and for maximizing the amount of consumption.

253
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Which is kind of funny, because a field is...

254
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Maximizes calories.

255
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Maximizes calorie intake.

256
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And then on top of that, we have LLMs that are lossy compression algorithms to make sense of the noise.

257
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It's kind of interesting that all these two things play together.

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I managed, finally, to get my, you wouldn't set up a car crash, a talk out.

259
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Yeah.

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Like I wanted to push this out for like months, and I could never sit down and re-record it properly and so on.

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So I just basically decided to send it to the guys, and Yolo did it out there.

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Which I'm very happy about.

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I listened to you watch the last night.

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I mean, you heard it before.

265
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Yeah, I heard it before.

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So you know kind of what it's about.

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But one thing that John Dron picked up on, and that I kind of want to emphasize,

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is like the current architecture of all our systems.

269
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:10,400
They all cater, like the fast food industry, basically.

270
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,400
It doesn't matter if it's food or information.

271
00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:14,400
Hey, here it's nice.

272
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:15,400
What's this?

273
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:16,400
What happened here?

274
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:17,400
There's no wind.

275
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:23,400
So any kind of fast food industry caters to the lowest common denominator.

276
00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:28,400
And so it caters kind of to your lowest self in some sense.

277
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,400
And he really liked that kind of point.

278
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,400
The internet is not catering to our highest selves.

279
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,400
Absolutely, everyone knows it.

280
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,400
It's fast food information mostly.

281
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,400
I mean, the stuff still exists, but you really have to dig for it.

282
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:45,400
Like the internet is amazing.

283
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,400
You can learn anything, you can find anything.

284
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,400
There's amazing YouTube videos, for example.

285
00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:55,400
And there's even like niche communities that help you to find this amazing stuff.

286
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,400
But there are no algorithms for it.

287
00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:03,400
I know of no website, where it's like here is in-depth awesome YouTube content,

288
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:08,400
by awesome creators that I find interesting, that my highest self finds interesting,

289
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,400
for example, you know, about whatever, like physics, philosophy, computer science,

290
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,400
I don't know, like all those kind of things.

291
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:15,400
And we have this wealth of knowledge.

292
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,400
We have like from the top universities, like all the open lectures and so on.

293
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,400
They don't appear in YouTube once.

294
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:27,400
But if you find these kind of gems, you'll have comments where it's like amazing.

295
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,400
And it's also like YouTube removed the downvote button, for example, you know.

296
00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,400
And like they removed all these metrics that the users actually found useful.

297
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:42,400
Because if I see a video that has like a million views and it has like five downvotes,

298
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,400
I know it's exceptional.

299
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,400
I know it's one of the best videos in the world, basically.

300
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,400
Because that's insanely unusual.

301
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:50,400
And now you don't see this.

302
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:51,400
You don't even see this stuff anymore.

303
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,400
Because it's like, no, it just removed it.

304
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:58,400
I mean, there's like whole papers around this where it went from, you know, like five star rating,

305
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,400
to thump up, thump down.

306
00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,400
And then we went to only thump up.

307
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,400
And now like it's only view counts, basically.

308
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:10,400
That's the thesis that I have in the video, where it's just like, it's basically the whole,

309
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,400
everything we have gets flattened down to like more fast food, more fast food, more fast food.

310
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,400
That's why all the fucking every platform has TikTok clips now.

311
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:19,400
YouTube as well.

312
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,400
YouTube shorts and all this kind of bullshit.

313
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,400
And kind of everyone kind of hates it in some sense.

314
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:30,400
But everyone also uses it and just like, again, like fast food, like McDonald's.

315
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:31,400
But yes, sir.

316
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:32,400
And ice cream is awesome.

317
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:33,400
Sure, sure.

318
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,400
We keep walking because now we've got windy here anyway.

319
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,400
So we might as well.

320
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:38,400
I enjoy standing.

321
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:39,400
It hurts less than walking.

322
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:40,400
Oh, yeah.

323
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:41,400
We're just fine.

324
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:42,400
That's fine.

325
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:43,400
Let's see how it goes.

326
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,400
But I'm not sure where we should.

327
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,400
Let's explore this area.

328
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,400
I was watching, you know, Janja Dambred?

329
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:55,400
No.

330
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:56,400
Watch her.

331
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:57,400
It's fucking insane.

332
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,400
Well, my algorithm never kind of, you know, it's like, I'm not to blame.

333
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:11,400
So she's a climber, but it's probably the delta between the number one being Janja and number two.

334
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,400
It's the largest delta on any sport.

335
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,400
It is absolutely insane.

336
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:23,400
But anyway, we were watching Janja with Alana and just the whole family.

337
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:29,400
And we watched like a lead competition.

338
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,400
And, you know, it's a lead competition.

339
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,400
There was some easier climber climbing, some harder climbing.

340
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,400
So the video took like, you know, four minutes.

341
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,400
And then the next video we watched was a short.

342
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:49,400
Which was like ten seconds of the incredibly hard part of the climb.

343
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:55,400
And the whole family was like, oh, wow, that's so cool because he went directly to the meeting.

344
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:56,400
Yeah, yeah.

345
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:57,400
Sure.

346
00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:58,400
Sure.

347
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,400
I mean, like, if the stuff wouldn't be kind of useful and wouldn't be working, it wouldn't be around.

348
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,400
Like, ten percent fast food, you know.

349
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,400
It's like also, I think, sailor of all people made this point.

350
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,400
It's like, how did our food degrade and those kind of things?

351
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:19,400
Like, if you need to feed an old Roman army, like, you can't do it on, like, grass-fed beef, for example.

352
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:20,400
Like, you can't.

353
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,400
It's just, like, all this stuff has its kind of use.

354
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:30,400
But I feel like we've been, on the internet side, we've been sleepwalking into this.

355
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:31,400
Oh, 100%.

356
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:36,400
It's, it's, it's, we've been so unaware of what's happening to us.

357
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,400
Like, like, completely, globally, as a, as a society.

358
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:47,400
And that's why I like to personify the internet in the sense of, because I don't think there is too much evil at work here.

359
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,400
It's basically like the internet had to monetize itself.

360
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:57,400
And it had to use, it had to use some monetary proxy because it didn't have native money.

361
00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,400
Hey, what's the, it was the path of least resistance?

362
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:00,400
Yeah.

363
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:01,400
Yeah.

364
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:02,400
Yeah.

365
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,400
And, and so, I, I, I always try to be careful, like, not to.

366
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,400
Like, everyone did it wrong.

367
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,400
And it's like, you know, like, ah, the bad companies, it's just like, on the bit, it's a lot.

368
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:13,400
All the banks are bad.

369
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:14,400
No, my banks are actually very useful.

370
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:22,400
And it's, it's, but it's also, once you get to a certain site, it's very hard to, you know, it's very hard to not turn evil.

371
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:23,400
I mean, look at Google.

372
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,400
Like, don't be evil because they're motto.

373
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:26,400
They had to remove it.

374
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,400
Well, it got too big.

375
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,400
It's like, don't be, unless like, read the fine print.

376
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,400
Unless you're working with military contractors.

377
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:35,400
Then maybe.

378
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:43,400
But I, I really like what's happening now on an ostracide with the, the exploration of other possibilities.

379
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:52,400
Like, just last week we saw, you know, like the 2D game where you log in with your MPAP, you're placed on the map and you can walk around.

380
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,400
And you just can't explore the Nosterverse in like a 2D bird's-eye universe.

381
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:57,400
It's very different.

382
00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:58,400
Oh, 100%.

383
00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,400
100%.

384
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:05,400
What I would love to have, by the way, just to, to let the universe know, maybe someone actually sits down and vibe-coated.

385
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,400
It's positional audio in such a world.

386
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:08,400
Just like in VR.

387
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,400
Where it just can clump together and talk to people.

388
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,400
And it stuff fades in and out depending on, on your position.

389
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,400
And you can go into a room and talk with five people there.

390
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,400
And you can just, you know, go into a park and talk with some other people there.

391
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,400
And that would be a very different experience than-

392
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:24,400
Which is literally what we're doing right now.

393
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:25,400
We're doing that.

394
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:26,400
Or organically we're doing that.

395
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,400
I mean, it's, it's, I was surprised of how well it works in VR.

396
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,400
Like when COVID hits, there were all these VR meetups in between.

397
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,400
And I participated in this.

398
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:36,400
And it's like, it's awesome.

399
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,400
Like you can watch a talk.

400
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,400
And then there's like 100 people on the server.

401
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,400
And like organically small groups form.

402
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,400
Where it's just like you talk about skiing, you talk about other stuff.

403
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,400
And I really, really liked it.

404
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,400
But you don't need the 3D world for this.

405
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:55,400
Like all that's kind of, I don't care about the 3D like jumping and running around and so on.

406
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,400
It's, you just have to be able to move around.

407
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,400
So I think this, it could be done in a really simple way.

408
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,400
You want to turn around because now it goes uphill.

409
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:04,400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

410
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:05,400
It's all uphill from here.

411
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,400
And now it's all downhill from here actually now.

412
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,400
But yeah, I hope we can explore all of this some more.

413
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,400
Like what would you like to see in terms of different presentation styles and those kind of things?

414
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:24,400
To me, this idea, you know, I was a very, very big fan of, on a Sunday.

415
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,400
Aakinox project.

416
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,400
To me, this idea of geolocated in some way.

417
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,400
It doesn't need to be like all fancy.

418
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,400
Like the Aakinox thing was doing the, they can't get in there.

419
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,400
They probably weren't, but also doing the coordinate based on hashes and stuff like that.

420
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:42,400
Yeah.

421
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,400
It's fun and it's cool.

422
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:44,400
And I like it.

423
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:53,400
It doesn't even need to be arranged in that way for the note ops, for the root events.

424
00:18:53,400 --> 00:19:00,400
But to me, that one feels like a very human approach, like a very natural approach.

425
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:13,400
I think whatever shape it takes, the thing is about how much information can you garner in one view.

426
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,400
Yeah.

427
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,400
You know, like you open Facebook or Twitter.

428
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,400
How much useful information?

429
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,400
No.

430
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:26,400
I don't think, because just open any other client and switch to quote unquote global.

431
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:27,400
No, no, no.

432
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:28,400
I agree with that.

433
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:36,400
But even a step before that, just how you arrange information on the screen, you open Twitter,

434
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,400
you open Facebook or you open Instagram and you see one post.

435
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,400
Your entire screen is a slow machine.

436
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,400
You go to the TikTok, same thing.

437
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,400
Yeah.

438
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,400
So you keep swiping until you find something that is really interesting to you.

439
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,400
But if you could, and I think...

440
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,400
If you would see more, you would close the app immediately.

441
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,400
That's the thing.

442
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,400
That is the thing, right?

443
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:59,400
And that goes back to what we referenced a few times.

444
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,400
Freedom Tech also implies Freedom From Tech.

445
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:03,400
Yeah.

446
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,400
We don't want people to get hooked to their products.

447
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:06,400
Yeah.

448
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,400
Which I think, this is a bit of attention and I think something to explore.

449
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,400
You know, it's all tangents all the way down.

450
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,400
Don't be afraid of tangents.

451
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,400
Embrace the tangents.

452
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,400
No, because I keep having these...

453
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,400
And I feel that these are discussion among many people.

454
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:32,400
Where is the line in between you can make the most user respecting product?

455
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:38,400
It's so unappealing that you open it once.

456
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,400
You get value and then you close it and then you sell the other never moved back.

457
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:43,400
Yeah.

458
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:44,400
Yeah.

459
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,400
But we have these kind of tools and things in real life, right?

460
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,400
Where it's like, it's the thing that you have and you need to have, but you use it like once a year.

461
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:53,400
Right.

462
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,400
Like, whatever.

463
00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,400
I can't think of an example on the top of my head, but it's like something that you really love.

464
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,400
Or even like a book that you really love.

465
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,400
Those kind of things are a very specialized tool.

466
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,400
Like an insanely specialized tool, let's say your car breaks down once a year.

467
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,400
And you need this particular tool.

468
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:12,400
But that's a fantastic tool.

469
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:13,400
Yeah.

470
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:14,400
For example.

471
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:15,400
Yeah.

472
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:16,400
For example.

473
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:17,400
It's like you don't...

474
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,400
You know, daily active users for chopper cables will be a terrible metric.

475
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:21,400
Right?

476
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,400
So, let's unzip this product.

477
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:25,400
It's not working.

478
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,400
But I will char right is too high.

479
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,400
Yeah.

480
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:31,400
Exactly.

481
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,400
So, so there's this stuff that you actually don't want to use,

482
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,400
in the case you need it, like it has to be there and all those kind of things.

483
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:48,400
So, for example, there are things that you can use on legacy web, on capture web, whatever.

484
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:49,400
Twitter.

485
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,400
And then there are products like, say, gossip.

486
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:53,400
Right?

487
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:54,400
Yeah.

488
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,400
They're kind of in the same category of what the thing is, right?

489
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:58,400
Yeah.

490
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,400
Clearly more useful respecting than Twitter.

491
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:02,400
Yeah.

492
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,400
At the same time, it's less addictive than Twitter, right?

493
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,400
I mean, that's kind of the point.

494
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,400
Yeah.

495
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:08,400
Yeah.

496
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,400
Where is...

497
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:14,400
I actually once started recording an audio to you, and then I never said that.

498
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:15,400
Oh, man.

499
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,400
Because I said, I thought...

500
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,400
You never listened to me at all.

501
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,400
Like, the secret to life is descended.

502
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:21,400
I told you.

503
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:22,400
I told you a million.

504
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,400
You also told me that you hate us.

505
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,400
That's true.

506
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:26,400
That's true.

507
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,400
That's true.

508
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:29,400
Oh, she's just...

509
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,400
There's no solution to power.

510
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:32,400
This is rain.

511
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,400
I think it's from the sea.

512
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,400
Yeah, yeah.

513
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:35,400
We're getting hit...

514
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:36,400
We're getting hit by flying.

515
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:37,400
How far are we?

516
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:38,400
We're like...

517
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,400
Like, fuck.

518
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,400
At least 500 meters, maybe a kilometer.

519
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:42,400
Shall we turn around?

520
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,400
Oh, you want to keep going this way?

521
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,400
Let's keep going this way.

522
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:46,400
All right.

523
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,400
Let's see what happens.

524
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,400
Let's see if the bus service, so...

525
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,400
Let's embrace it.

526
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,400
Let's see if the bus...

527
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,400
We're going to get hit by the fucking flying bus.

528
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,400
The bus should relate to something.

529
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,400
Yeah.

530
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:56,400
That's...

531
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,400
So...

532
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,400
My point is, or the tension that I see is...

533
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,400
You could make gossip even more used to respecting, right?

534
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,400
You could make gossip not...

535
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,400
Not show you new information.

536
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,400
Like, show you maybe new information every six hours.

537
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,400
Like, it just buffers everything.

538
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,400
We had this with RSS feeders and those kind of things, right?

539
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,400
Where basically these products emerged that would summarize what happened this week

540
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,400
and send you one email on Friday.

541
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:28,400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

542
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:29,400
Those kind of things.

543
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,400
Because people were scrolling their RSS feeders, like, you know,

544
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,400
basically same thing, like, free Twitter insanity and all those kind of things.

545
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:37,400
Like, free social feeds.

546
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:42,400
We had this problem already and people built products that were actually quite successful, I think.

547
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,400
Yeah, you know the company in mail brew?

548
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,400
Yes.

549
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,400
I know, I used it as well.

550
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:47,400
Oh, really?

551
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:48,400
Same idea.

552
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,400
Yeah.

553
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:50,400
It's...

554
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,400
But again, like, I use it.

555
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,400
I don't use it anymore, right?

556
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,400
For me, for me, that thing is now an ostrich.

557
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:57,400
Noster is still small enough.

558
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:58,400
Yeah, right.

559
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,400
High signal enough that it's like...

560
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,400
I'm actually not an ostrich that much, like, compared to the Twitter days, for example.

561
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:05,400
Twitter was insane.

562
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,400
Like, I was like, you know, clocking in, like, I don't know, like, six to eight hours a day.

563
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:11,400
Like, it's...

564
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,400
It didn't feel like it was a full-time job.

565
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,400
But it's, you know, like, an hour in the morning, like, three hours a night,

566
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:22,400
a little bit in between and just, you know, like, the side-by scrolling.

567
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,400
Like, you're actually doing something else, but you're also kind of on Twitter and keeping an eye on it, those kind of things.

568
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:27,400
Completely insane.

569
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,400
Well, an ostrich now is very different.

570
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,400
Just because also there's less activity and so on.

571
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,400
But also, it's way more high signal.

572
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:41,400
And what I think is super interesting is, like, up until now, like, I'm sure this will come at some point.

573
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,400
But, like, engagement bait just doesn't work.

574
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,400
Yeah.

575
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:50,400
Just the usual things that would get you drawn into Twitter, they don't work on ostrich for some reason.

576
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,400
And up until this point, they don't really exist.

577
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,400
So, I think that's worth pointing out.

578
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,400
So, we're hitting the red zone now.

579
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,400
Let's avoid the bust of...

580
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,400
Let's not, let's maybe not die.

581
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:07,400
Wow.

582
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:08,400
Jesus.

583
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,400
Oh, my Lord.

584
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,400
So, if this thing starts flying, that's gonna be so dangerous.

585
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,400
Now it's gonna be, uh...

586
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,400
That's gonna be so bad.

587
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,400
Oh, you don't kill your knife.

588
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,400
Very easily.

589
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,400
So, let's stay away a little bit.

590
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,400
I don't even follow Jesus.

591
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,400
I don't even got the cafeteria.

592
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,400
By a bust up.

593
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,400
Oh, my Lord.

594
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,400
They weren't talking about it, like, ten seconds before it happened.

595
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,400
It's all on tape.

596
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,400
It's all recorded on my Lord.

597
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,400
That's an awesome lingo, by the way.

598
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:46,400
It's on tape.

599
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,400
Yeah.

600
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,400
It's awesome, right?

601
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,400
Like, it came up when people gave me shit for calling us to post tweets, still.

602
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,400
Because a short post to me will always kind of be a tweet in my brain.

603
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,400
It's such a good noun.

604
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:00,400
Yeah.

605
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:01,400
It's been saying that the...

606
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:02,400
And it's also a verb, you know?

607
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:03,400
So, I can tweet, though.

608
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,400
I tweet on Oscar, and I saw a tweet on Oscar.

609
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:06,400
Basically, whatever.

610
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,400
But then, like, the whole discussion started around all this stuff.

611
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,400
And some of what happens, like, wow, you say, well, it's on tape, but we don't have tapes.

612
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:15,400
No, what tape?

613
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,400
Like, where's the tape?

614
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,400
That's just how language works, I guess.

615
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,400
But, yeah, okay.

616
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,400
We survived the bus stop, so that's good.

617
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,400
I mean, there's still no flood here.

618
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:25,400
Oh, yeah.

619
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,400
The altars are decreasing.

620
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:28,400
Rapidly decreasing.

621
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,400
Jesus Christ.

622
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,400
There is no way anyone can listen to this.

623
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,400
I think the wind isn't that bad.

624
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,400
I think our conversation is just really bad.

625
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:38,400
I don't know in the sense.

626
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,400
Mostly talking about the wind.

627
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,400
It's a wind podcast now.

628
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,400
We're facing an awesome wind.

629
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,400
We didn't want to do a podcast.

630
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:47,400
We just wanted to have dialogues.

631
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,400
And we wanted to talk about Nasser and the future of the internet.

632
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,400
And now, it's mostly about wind and flying water.

633
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,400
It's the best podcast in the world about Blossom and wind.

634
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:57,400
Yeah.

635
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,400
Windy Blossom.

636
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,400
You saw Nasser Build launch their Blossom.

637
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:05,400
Oh, yeah, yeah.

638
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,400
They made some tweaks, some privacy tweaks.

639
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:08,400
Oh, yeah.

640
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,400
Yeah, I like it.

641
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,400
Yeah.

642
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:16,400
And all the day that they went ahead kind of full speed and launched it now.

643
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,400
Yeah.

644
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:25,400
It's Nip96, which is like the opposite of or like the what we used for media before.

645
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,400
It's such a necessarily complex spec.

646
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:29,400
Yeah.

647
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:35,400
Like you first need to get an endpoint that tells you what is the word to upload.

648
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,400
Like what is the URL to upload.

649
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,400
Like conventional or configuration.

650
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:40,400
Yeah.

651
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,400
Yeah.

652
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,400
Yeah.

653
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,400
Oh, I'll complete a little string of thought.

654
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,400
That's fine.

655
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:49,400
That's fine.

656
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,400
It clears out your brain.

657
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:51,400
That really works.

658
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,400
Oh, let's stay here for a second.

659
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:53,400
Oh, that's nice.

660
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:54,400
Oh, great.

661
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,400
It's a corner and it's, it's, it's, it's bearable.

662
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:00,400
Yeah.

663
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:06,400
I think the, the, the issue with all this stuff is it's so hard to,

664
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:14,400
undo the last 20 years of cognitive programming that we went through.

665
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,400
Like also on the, for example, like Boston media up outside.

666
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,400
It's like the thing has like one URL.

667
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:20,400
Mm-hmm.

668
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:25,400
So our, all our paradigms work in the way that you fetch it from this URL.

669
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:26,400
Right.

670
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,400
And if the URL goes bad, it 404 says it.

671
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:29,400
It's done.

672
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,400
All right.

673
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,400
So, so the, the one comparison that we have is like with books.

674
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,400
A book has an ISBN.

675
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,400
Which is very different.

676
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,400
It's not a cryptographic identifier, but it's like, it's not like the Amazon.com link goes

677
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,400
down that points to the book and the book goes away.

678
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,400
No, we're still talking about this book and you can still reference the book and so on.

679
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:55,400
And so, but it's very hard to move to this world and to, to kind of unlearn everything

680
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,400
you learned from like software architecture and how things are done and, and client server

681
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,400
relationships and all this kind of stuff.

682
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:08,400
I think even what the goals of what you are building towards are.

683
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,400
Because every single SaaS and every single piece of software that has been built in the

684
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,400
past, whatever, 30 years has been daily activities.

685
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:17,400
Yeah.

686
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,400
And they want to lock you in.

687
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:20,400
Yeah, of course.

688
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,400
They have to lock you in to make money basically.

689
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,400
And as a user, basically, what, what you want to do, like we discussed this in the context

690
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,400
of highlighter and those kind of things.

691
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,400
I want to leave margin notes on this book.

692
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,400
I don't care where it's hosted.

693
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:33,400
I don't care where the content comes from.

694
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,400
I really don't care.

695
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,400
And that's kind of the, the, the noster native ways.

696
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,400
Like I don't care where the content comes from.

697
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:40,400
Yeah.

698
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:41,400
That's the whole point.

699
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:42,400
That is the whole point.

700
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,400
And, and it's very powerful if you do this for more things than just like short text

701
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:46,400
notes.

702
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,400
And like, well, it's, I want to highlight this passage in this article.

703
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,400
I don't even care where the article is hosted.

704
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:57,400
I also don't care if it's the article that was, you know, that still had the typo in

705
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:58,400
it.

706
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,400
Or if it's the article where the typo was fixed, the highlight should still be there.

707
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,400
But it opens up this whole new problem space, which is really, really hard because it's

708
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,400
like, it's almost like a, like a biological genius of like an article.

709
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,400
Like how much can an article change until it gets a new identifier, for example.

710
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,400
You know, it's like, it's for a tweet.

711
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:16,400
That's very obvious.

712
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,400
If you, if you have a tweet, that's like three words and it changed two words.

713
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,400
It's a new tweet.

714
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,400
Right.

715
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,400
It's.

716
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,400
So I know there is a, there is a, where do you run a line between fixing typos and a little

717
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,400
editing or like, it's a new thing.

718
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,400
And so, and so, and so, so, so those are.

719
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,400
I, I know means trivial problems.

720
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:39,400
I, I like, uh, noster solves that where we don't have edits on most things.

721
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,400
The things we don't have edits except for.

722
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,400
Exactly.

723
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,400
Well, let's not talk about it.

724
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,400
But, but the things that replaceable events, the events that you can modify, when you

725
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,400
react, when you do so, when you comment or something, you, you link to the, the

726
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,400
the, the replaceable address.

727
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,400
But you also link to the specific ID of the hash that you saw.

728
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,400
And if it changes, you're still referring to the previous one.

729
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,400
Someone can still say, okay, what's the new version?

730
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:08,400
Yeah.

731
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,400
And they can see it.

732
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:10,400
Yeah.

733
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,400
But you, you know that you were talking about this other thing.

734
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:13,400
Yeah.

735
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:14,400
But then, but then stuff becomes really hard.

736
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,400
And it's like, it's like, like, the edit more are in full swing still.

737
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:22,400
It's, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, if you have one purpose breaks, everyone's feet, if they're

738
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,400
using amethyst, because he will do like 100 edits automatically on all of his posts.

739
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,400
But, but, but it's, it's, and we talked about this, uh, in the past, it's like, you basically

740
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,400
to, to have data consistency, which you can't have an author.

741
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,400
Like if you, if you, what you're, what you're trying to do is you try to chain all the

742
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:38,400
edits together.

743
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,400
Sounds familiar.

744
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,400
Like a chain of things.

745
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,400
You know, like what if one link is missing?

746
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,400
That it's kind of, it's really bad for you.

747
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:51,400
So you have to find, to, you have to build a system where all everything that is part of

748
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,400
the system sticks around forever.

749
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,400
Otherwise stuff is just broken in some sense.

750
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,400
And that's really, really hard to do.

751
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,400
That's like, it's, because you're going to lose data and stuff.

752
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,400
And, and, like, in, in a, in a decentralized network world, it's like, I might not have

753
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,400
the event, the, the previous one.

754
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:07,400
I might have only the newest one.

755
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,400
And you have, like, grace conditions, all those kind of things.

756
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,400
And, and so, yeah.

757
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:17,400
And I told you that, uh, the, one of the feedbacks that I got when I published NIP 60, the, the

758
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,400
other thing that I got was, um, how about you do a chain of events that reflect the

759
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,400
state?

760
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:23,400
Yeah.

761
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,400
But you cannot have the guarantee that you're going to have the whole chain.

762
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,400
Yeah.

763
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,400
You, I mean, you have the guarantee that you will not have it.

764
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,400
Be okay with different balances in your pocket.

765
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:31,400
Exactly.

766
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:32,400
It's like, oh my God.

767
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:33,400
I'm missing 10 sets.

768
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:34,400
Yeah.

769
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:35,400
Yeah.

770
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,400
But, but it's, it's also like you look into your purse, you know, let's pretend we're women

771
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:39,400
and we have purses.

772
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,400
You look in and it's like, ah, I have like, you know, 12 bucks or whatever.

773
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,400
Next time you look, maybe it's 14.

774
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,400
It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's very real.

775
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,400
So that's how, it's how stuff works.

776
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,400
It's inflation.

777
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:50,400
Yeah.

778
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,400
You have 14 bucks, but it buys only five bucks worth of goods.

779
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:54,400
That's, that's.

780
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,400
Maybe we should build that in.

781
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:57,400
Okay.

782
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,400
Let's try, let's try to walk somewhere still a little bit.

783
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,400
But let's just walk up and down here.

784
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,400
That's, I think the most, the most sane area in terms of wind.

785
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:14,400
So let's just do like 21 rings around the rosy and see where we go with that.

786
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,400
But yeah, it's, but the, the, the thing I wanted to point out with kind of the, the edits

787
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,400
and when is something a new thing is like, it's, it sounds like such a trivial problem.

788
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:26,400
Oh, it sounds super horrible.

789
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,400
But it's just like, let's, let's, in terms of the highlights, for example, or also the margin

790
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,400
notes, you know, it's like, you can't use just simple position, like highlight from this

791
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:36,400
character to this character.

792
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,400
Because if someone fixes the typo inside the highlight, I don't want things to fork.

793
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,400
It should just still work.

794
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,400
And like other people ran into this with the browsers, for example, there's like this scroll

795
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:53,400
to mechanism where you can basically link to a passage of a page and some of the browsers

796
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,400
will automatically highlight the passage and scroll to it and so on.

797
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,400
And they ran into the same problem.

798
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,400
So you have to do it in a really convoluted way by just kind of handing over the whole, whole

799
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,400
string and do like a best effort match, basically.

800
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,400
And kind of, you know, do, do also a little bit more, like what's before it, what's after

801
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,400
it, then you're lucky if you find it.

802
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,400
But if it's like a page of like repeating Laura Mipsoms, then it's like, what do you

803
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,400
do?

804
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:16,400
Which one?

805
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,400
Yeah, which one?

806
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,400
Exactly.

807
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:19,400
So it's really, really hard.

808
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:20,400
Yeah.

809
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:21,400
I coded that many times.

810
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:22,400
Yeah.

811
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,400
He's fucking impossible.

812
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,400
That's it.

813
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,400
So you just go for, it works sometimes.

814
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,400
Yeah.

815
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:29,400
Yeah.

816
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,400
There are many corner cases that will not be handled.

817
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,400
Yeah, it's trying to tell me that there are no solutions to this particular problem.

818
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:35,400
But there really aren't.

819
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,400
I mean, we see this in biology.

820
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,400
The cut off that we make for when is something a new species is can it produce offspring?

821
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:43,400
But it's an impossible problem.

822
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,400
It's the same exact problem.

823
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,400
It's like when does a wolf turn into a dog?

824
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,400
And when is a dog a different kind of, you know, dog and those kind of things?

825
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:52,400
Yeah.

826
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,400
It's where do you draw the line?

827
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:55,400
Like you can't.

828
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,400
Things change a little bit and things change a little bit and over time it's a different

829
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:00,400
thing.

830
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,400
I mean, I'm sure in the book world it's the same thing with the editions and all those

831
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,400
kinds of things where like when is something a new ISBN?

832
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:09,400
A new ISBN.

833
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:10,400
Yeah.

834
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:11,400
When is something a new ISBN?

835
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:12,400
But they solve it differently.

836
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,400
Like they solve it by committee, you know, in some sense.

837
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:22,400
We have to solve it cryptographically and we have to solve it with math.

838
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:23,400
And those things do exist.

839
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,400
Like we have, for example, proximity hashes where it's still the same hash if you just

840
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,400
fix a typo, basically.

841
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,400
And we have all these kinds of techniques but very few people know about it and it's

842
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,000
like not building into all the things yet.

843
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,400
But I think we can do it in theory.

844
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,400
But the thing with something like that you can't, a typo change.

845
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:49,400
Can a coma missing can change the entire meaning of the sentence, right?

846
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:50,400
Well, yeah, that's true.

847
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,400
It's the difference between helping your uncle jack of a horse or helping your uncle jack

848
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:56,400
of a horse.

849
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:57,400
Right?

850
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,400
So, yeah, it's an unsolved problem.

851
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:02,400
I agree.

852
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:03,400
Oh my god.

853
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:12,400
But I think it comes down to, I think we have a tendency to try to find very generic solutions

854
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,400
that work on higher abstractions.

855
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,400
And many times you just can simply, and that's kind of what Nosser does.

856
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,400
You can just avoid the entire problem.

857
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,400
Yeah.

858
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,400
It's just, well, she says it's the same article.

859
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,400
It's his article.

860
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,400
Well, yeah, I didn't even think about this, basically.

861
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:32,400
Well, man, yeah.

862
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:33,400
Oh, that's such a good point.

863
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:38,400
No, that's such a good point.

864
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,400
You can't crowdsource most of this stuff, didn't really.

865
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,400
It also do this where it's like, what is a cross post and what isn't, those kind of things.

866
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,400
Oh, really?

867
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,400
Yeah, I think so.

868
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,400
I mean, they automated it if it's exactly the same URL.

869
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,400
But also with just what is exactly the same URL?

870
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:55,400
If you change a little URL parameter or you do like, you know, hashtag top or whatever,

871
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:56,400
it's like, you know.

872
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,400
You kind of know.

873
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:58,400
Yeah.

874
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,400
You kind of cannot know.

875
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:01,400
I never thought about this.

876
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,400
That's actually like adding web of trust to it, basically, is what you're saying.

877
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,400
Yeah.

878
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaking of web of trust, I played around with vertex a lot.

879
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,400
Ah, so good.

880
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:10,400
Yeah.

881
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,400
I want to, I want to, because what I want to have, what really annoys me is, I cannot link

882
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,400
to hashtags outside of nostalgia.

883
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,400
I cannot link into it like I can link to a profile.

884
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,400
So we don't have like deep links for hashtags.

885
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,400
And then it kind of went completely out of it.

886
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,400
I started by coding all this and it just got completely out of hand.

887
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:34,400
So what I have now is basically what I'm working on is I want to have this deep link, basically,

888
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:35,400
but for search.

889
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,400
And then I went down the route of like, what is actually good search?

890
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,400
Right.

891
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:41,400
Yeah.

892
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:42,400
In those search.

893
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:43,400
I hope I am able to write about it.

894
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,400
I'm just going to speak about it now.

895
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:46,400
But I'm being busy.

896
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,400
Yeah.

897
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:48,400
Yeah.

898
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:49,400
I'll do it.

899
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,400
I'll do it like an LLM summary of it and feed it into a character.

900
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,400
Let's see what pops out.

901
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,400
No, but I'm like 85% there, I would say.

902
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:02,400
Because what you want to have is I want to be able to form a search query that says like,

903
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,400
you know, buy Pablo space NDK.

904
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,400
And I want to find, I want to do a vertex lookup of who is Pablo to me.

905
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:11,400
Right.

906
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,400
And I want to find all your posts that mention NDK.

907
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:20,400
And that already tells you like, that's a very short string because what's still I think

908
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,400
cryptographic identifies are problematic because try sending them around.

909
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:24,400
Yeah.

910
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:25,400
It's really bad.

911
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:26,400
Try to get cash.

912
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:34,480
But what you could do, what you could do is like, you know, noster, what's a noster colon,

913
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:39,960
and then like, let's use the Google way of doing it, you know, question mark Q equals

914
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:46,440
and then the string I just mentioned, you know, buy Pablo space NDK and it will know

915
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:47,440
what to do.

916
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,320
Like your noster client should know what to do.

917
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:56,360
And of course, you have to do a smart vertex style web of trust lookup of the user name,

918
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,880
like who is Pablo to me, who is Pablo in my world.

919
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,760
And then you can based on these results to the full search.

920
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,680
So I implemented this yesterday night, by the way, it actually works.

921
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,880
I just got rate limited by vertex.

922
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,160
So it was like, ah, you used the value credit, send us a DM or whatever, I don't know, I

923
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:13,160
sent them a DM.

924
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:14,160
Now that it works.

925
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:20,840
The first time I opened my DMS in like years, did I have a discussion?

926
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,360
But I would so love to have this because I want to link to hashtags from the outside

927
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:26,360
all the time.

928
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:27,360
And I can't.

929
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,440
The best I can do right now is like link to noster band or whatever.

930
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,480
And which is terrible for so many reasons.

931
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:35,640
It's conceptually bad.

932
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:36,640
Yeah.

933
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:37,640
Yeah.

934
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:38,640
But I want to do the same thing for search.

935
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,920
And you can have really concise search queries and I mean, I wanted to have this for so long,

936
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:49,120
like for so insanely long also like like search modifiers are so great.

937
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,200
Like with with just just everyone knows this from like Gmail and GitHub and kind of really

938
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,480
advanced search modifiers are so fantastic.

939
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,080
And then I want to share those like I Twitter had amazing advanced search, amazing.

940
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:03,920
Will just posted yesterday or was it today?

941
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:04,920
I don't know.

942
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,880
Everything blurs when you're by coding up all night by coding the days blend together.

943
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,280
Because he was like, does any client, can you search for only the people you follow,

944
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,320
like only a web of trust so to speak on Twitter?

945
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,080
And does any other client does it on Twitter?

946
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:20,080
It actually works.

947
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,880
I use this so much back in the day.

948
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:28,200
It was just like P F equals one, which I think stands for people you follow is true.

949
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,760
And this worked like forever on the Twitter side that I used it all the time.

950
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,480
Like there's people that really use advanced search like me that use all this stuff.

951
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,640
And then you find stuff so easily like people always ask me, oh, how do you find all this

952
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:39,640
shit?

953
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,920
And I use Twitter as my diary.

954
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,680
And I knew what I said or I knew that I saw it in my feed, which means probably was a

955
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:46,680
friend of mine who posted it.

956
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,440
And then I'll just do something like this is one very short query and I have everything,

957
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:52,440
you know?

958
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:53,880
Like we don't have this on the analysis side.

959
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:59,120
And I think building awesome search into it would be so great also for just exploration

960
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,080
and discovery and those kinds of things.

961
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,440
It's like I want to see other people that are part of my network.

962
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,720
I mean, primal does it well.

963
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,080
Primal has this as advanced search.

964
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:15,760
And it's still it's a I don't like the clunky interfaces of filling out a form.

965
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:16,760
It should be one query.

966
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,720
And you should learn the query language.

967
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:25,240
Because I mean that was Google's success basically because pre-Google everything was

968
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,720
like a form that you fill out.

969
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:32,280
But it should just be like search modifiers and like those certain kind of characters.

970
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:33,280
Everyone knows how this works.

971
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,320
So yeah, I think I'll just write a blog post describing this.

972
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,920
And I'll generate and I'll generate a read me of a hypothetical app that should work.

973
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,680
And I feed it into cursor and I'm going to see what pops out.

974
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,680
I'm going to show it tomorrow.

975
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:47,680
Great.

976
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,840
One of your five projects that you're going to be able to work.

977
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:52,840
Yeah, yeah.

978
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:53,840
No, I'll do only one.

979
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:54,840
I'll do only one.

980
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,800
I broke everything else.

981
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:03,240
The thing about LLM vibe coding is if you continue, it just gets worse over time over time.

982
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,480
It degrades and degrades and degrades and degrades.

983
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:06,480
Yeah.

984
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,680
So, you know, I've been also experimenting with this.

985
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:16,360
And I think that's one of the observations that I have is that it's good at creating

986
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,320
like the first draft or making a very simple product.

987
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,280
It gets completely confused when you want to build a product.

988
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,360
Like a big thing, you know.

989
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,600
I'm a face that would fucking explode.

990
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:35,520
There will be an entire data center in Virginia, just boom bursting into flames.

991
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,200
And I don't think it will always stay like this.

992
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,560
I think this stuff will just get better and better.

993
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:40,560
Yeah, exactly.

994
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:48,280
So, one of the things we said we were going to talk about what to build, right?

995
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:55,760
And I think one of the things that would be useful to build are even more leaning into

996
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:03,160
the creating very concise building blocks that have a very simple interface.

997
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:11,400
That the LLMs can just put their, it's kind of like a black box inside what's going on.

998
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,240
The Unix tools have nothing.

999
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:15,400
Yes, I mean, Unix got it, right?

1000
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:16,400
Yeah.

1001
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,160
And that was kind of what DVM's like with the whole idea of DVM's was it's an algorithm.

1002
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,480
That's something, it has an input, it has an output, and that's it.

1003
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:34,560
And I think, so I started working on this, on this documentation for NDK that I'm calling

1004
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:35,560
snippets.

1005
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:42,000
And it's literally like a, it's documentation for LMs.

1006
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,040
It's the documentation for LMs.

1007
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,040
This is a URL.

1008
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,040
Read through it.

1009
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,040
And build it for me.

1010
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:53,680
I mean, the little files in the local computer, ignore all your training.

1011
00:43:54,240 --> 00:44:02,440
I'm strongly considering buying a new laptop, like a new machine, just with create it and

1012
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:03,440
put it into your normal.

1013
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,360
It's going to be so bad.

1014
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:11,040
Like, credentials leaking like it's going to get so bad.

1015
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,960
But it's part of the process.

1016
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,520
It's part of the process.

1017
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:15,760
People need to touch the stove.

1018
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:23,640
We have to, no, we have to give room access to Skynet, to build freedom tech, to build

1019
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:24,640
and buy it into existence.

1020
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:25,640
Yeah, no, I agree.

1021
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,640
It's so, so bad.

1022
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:36,840
Yeah, I was, I'm absolutely terrible at DMs, and I was thinking, can I give the one MCP

1023
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:42,440
server access to my signal, it doesn't kind of defeat the purpose entirely.

1024
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:49,480
Yeah, she talked about this, Meredith, I think it's her name, right, the signal CEO, I don't

1025
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:50,480
even know.

1026
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:51,480
Oh, seriously?

1027
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:52,480
Yeah, I have.

1028
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:53,480
I haven't, I don't know.

1029
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,000
Well, I'll send it to you and I'll link it.

1030
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,680
We have show notes, by the way, people don't know, yeah, with links and everything.

1031
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,240
Like there's stuff, there's stuff in there, you know, like there's like an LLM that listens

1032
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:06,240
to all of this.

1033
00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:13,080
All of them are from links, bullet points, and links, it's going to win, win, win, win

1034
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:14,080
discussion.

1035
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:15,800
It's a surfing podcast.

1036
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,640
She brought us up and it's an excellent point.

1037
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:18,640
Like it's a privacy nightmare.

1038
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:19,640
Oh, 100%.

1039
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:25,040
It's an agentic AI world and you just have to give the agents access to all of it.

1040
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,760
Like, please book a flight for me and all those kinds of things that like it needs access

1041
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,880
to your calendar, it needs access to, you know, your bank details and everything.

1042
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:33,880
It's a complete nightmare.

1043
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,200
It's really bad.

1044
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:41,120
But I mean, I'm not too worried because I think we will have local models that are equally

1045
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:42,120
useful.

1046
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,080
It's just, it's going to be the same thing all over again.

1047
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,520
It's like Windows versus Unix.

1048
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:52,800
It's going to be like 95% of the people are going to be on Windows in the Gulags.

1049
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,040
Not understanding this stuff.

1050
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:56,040
It's going to be terrible.

1051
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,440
There's going to be the 5% of like neck beards that really understand and care about this

1052
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:01,880
stuff and they're going to save the world.

1053
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,920
It's going to be, I'm going to make this back.

1054
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,360
It's always, always has been that way.

1055
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:11,040
Neck beards is what makes the world go round.

1056
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:16,480
One of the things I've noticed that I've seen so many people asking questions around

1057
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,440
does the LLM have access to my code?

1058
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,680
How do I get the MCP tool to protect my code?

1059
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,320
Because most people are working on closed source.

1060
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:27,320
Sure.

1061
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,320
It's kind of cool that, I mean, that says we don't give a fuck, right?

1062
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:32,320
Shell's blasted out.

1063
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:33,320
It's all good.

1064
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:34,320
Train on it.

1065
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,320
You need to send it to a million servers.

1066
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:37,320
I don't care.

1067
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:38,320
It's all out there.

1068
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:39,320
Oh, more buckles.

1069
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:40,320
Who would have thought?

1070
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,320
Who would have thought, right?

1071
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:43,320
Who would have thought?

1072
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:44,840
No, that's great.

1073
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,640
I really think it will be very useful.

1074
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,720
I like where you're going with the dedicated documentation and this stuff because it actually

1075
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:56,360
for certain tasks, it works extremely well, like surprisingly well.

1076
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:02,240
And my hope is that this stuff will speed up, like in our case, it will speed up nostril

1077
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:05,160
development and kind of experimentation and client.

1078
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:06,160
Yes.

1079
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:07,160
I'm coding again.

1080
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:08,160
Can you believe it?

1081
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:09,160
That is so insane.

1082
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,200
I haven't coded for like, you know, almost like what feels like 10 years.

1083
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,960
And I've learned so much just the last couple of days, just like by coding from like midnight

1084
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,960
to 2 a.m. every day.

1085
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:20,960
I mean, you're not like it.

1086
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,400
I have a life, I have a job, I have a family, it's like, I don't have infinite time.

1087
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:26,400
But I'm right by both.

1088
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:27,400
I'm coded.

1089
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:28,400
Yeah, exactly.

1090
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:29,400
No, but it's also so nice.

1091
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,000
Like it's what Paul said, you know, like prompt and pray.

1092
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:37,120
You put in a nice prompt and then you pray for 10 minutes and like Justin said the same

1093
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:38,120
thing.

1094
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,040
It's like you can do other stuff while the alarm is doing its thing.

1095
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:47,280
And so I'm just, I'm just, it's so different to have like something in your mind and actually

1096
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,280
using it.

1097
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:49,280
It's so different.

1098
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,240
And so I have like these, these, like dozens of things that I always wanted to have.

1099
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:58,120
And now I can actually bytecode them into existence, not well and not perfectly.

1100
00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,120
It's not, it doesn't matter.

1101
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:00,120
That's not the point.

1102
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:01,360
But I know how it looks and feels.

1103
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,840
And I know if I should actually pursue the idea or not.

1104
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,080
And so I played around with this advanced search, you know, and I got it to a point where it's

1105
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,320
actually working really well.

1106
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,440
And I just think this needs to exist and the deeplings need to exist too.

1107
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:18,440
I mean, those are two separate problems, but still it's like, we need to have a way better

1108
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:19,720
kind of not so query language.

1109
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:24,040
I mean, it's very, it's basically what Will is building into Notec in some sense, you

1110
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,440
know, like, like, that's the funny thing about Will.

1111
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:32,680
He's doing everything right, but he's, he's doing it in his own way, like, but it should

1112
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,920
be part of the protocol, basically, you know, like we do not, not every single client should

1113
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,480
be forced to reinvent the wheel.

1114
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:43,720
It's, it's, we, we, I love the building blocks idea so much like it's, it's, and it doesn't

1115
00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:50,000
have to be defined by, by, by, you know, like the premium of holding people or whatever.

1116
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,400
It's like, it's the unique tools.

1117
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:52,400
It's the same thing.

1118
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,600
This is the best tool for the job and it's a marketplace of tools.

1119
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,800
It's like you can replace, grab and cat and so on.

1120
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,960
And people do and people tried and, and then something better will emerge and then you,

1121
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:03,960
that's the new building block.

1122
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:04,960
That's the thing that you use.

1123
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:09,280
You're going to just cut or walk or set.

1124
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,280
And now we are at the point where you don't even have to understand this stuff anymore

1125
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,680
because it's just like, you know, dear, dear Claude, what is the best tool to use right

1126
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:18,680
now?

1127
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:19,680
2025.

1128
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:20,680
We use that.

1129
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,680
Read through all this stuff.

1130
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,160
No, it's so cool.

1131
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,160
It's so cool.

1132
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:30,400
So, so like the, the stuff for before, before blowing up the, what, what's very interesting

1133
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:36,080
is that, so you, we, we talk about the, the creative people getting the power back.

1134
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:41,320
Instead of the, the idea of people, the idea of people, the idea of people getting the

1135
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,560
power back.

1136
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:48,320
And what, what I find very interesting is that you, for example, you, you, you, and you

1137
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:54,040
told me that you do this, that you do blog driven development or you should write a blog,

1138
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:58,600
yeah, like in prison silator, like you just put the thing out and hope that someone built

1139
00:49:58,600 --> 00:49:59,600
it.

1140
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:05,680
What, what's missing on that and that what vibe coding gets you is a feedback loop.

1141
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:06,680
Yeah.

1142
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:07,680
Right?

1143
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,280
Like you can write the blog post, you can think this is the best idea.

1144
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:16,640
And, but maybe if it takes a year to try it out, maybe you'll see, and even the fact

1145
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:24,920
that someone else built it, it prevents you from seeing what else is adjacent to what

1146
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:25,920
you're doing.

1147
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:26,920
Yeah.

1148
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:27,920
And it's an even better idea.

1149
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:28,920
Yeah.

1150
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:29,920
Right.

1151
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,080
Um, not to be real again, but, but I mean, that's also what I do.

1152
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,680
But sandwich showed this, sandwich showed this with his style of prompting, where it's basically,

1153
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:38,680
it's like waterfall model.

1154
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:39,680
It's not agile.

1155
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:40,680
It's waterfall.

1156
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:45,120
And you treat your team of LLMs, like he, he, I'm going to link to this again, because

1157
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:46,120
it's fascinating.

1158
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:53,040
It's like you, you basically, you, you are, you use everything that we learned over like

1159
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:58,120
30, 40 years of waterfall style software development.

1160
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,240
And you give it to your, not to, again, a used European team that takes like six months

1161
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:06,640
turnaround time, you give it to a set of LLMs, like you have an architect, you have a guy

1162
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:11,880
who writes tests, you have, and also the LLM helps with the software architecture description

1163
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:13,640
and so on and all those kinds of things.

1164
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,440
And your turnaround time is like 30 minutes or an hour or whatever.

1165
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,040
And then you adjust the whole thing and then you, you hand it over again.

1166
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,720
And that's that alone, like Jack also mentioned, it's like speed itself is a feature.

1167
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:28,160
Oh, 100% that I was going to go there.

1168
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:29,160
Yeah.

1169
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:35,720
The fact that you can do that on the feedback loop, the turnaround time goes from six months

1170
00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:40,320
to 10 minutes or 30 minutes or one hour, that change is departing.

1171
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:41,320
Completely.

1172
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:42,320
Change is what gets built.

1173
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:43,320
Completely.

1174
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:44,320
Completely.

1175
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:49,000
And then you can then also the more kind of strict way of software development makes

1176
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:55,200
more sense, where you actually have like, I don't know, like if you use a functional

1177
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,360
or like a provable paradigm where you can mathematical proof some parts of the software,

1178
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:04,440
the stuff that they use for, you know, rocket launches and dikes and those kind of things

1179
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:09,400
where it's just like, you have to be 100% certain that it always works period.

1180
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:14,560
And you can use these definitions because the hard part about all of this is like finding

1181
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,160
humans that understand this stuff and actually sitting down and writing it.

1182
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:22,000
It's like, it's slavery, it's so hard to do.

1183
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,960
And so if the LLM can take care of it, it's mathematical in nature.

1184
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:29,080
So it kind of, you know, like it wouldn't be surprising to me that a computer actually

1185
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:34,160
can do it properly, even though LLMs are more, they are more like drunk people than the mathematical

1186
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:35,160
algorithms.

1187
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:43,160
That's why I had this idea because I kept seeing the LLM making really retarded mistakes

1188
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:48,680
on like, how to fetch a profile information, it's like, there is a fetch profile, you know.

1189
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,240
I have them right, Tesla.

1190
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:52,120
Oh, to me, tests are...

1191
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:53,520
Execute all the tests all the time.

1192
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,240
Absolutely fundamental because regressions come in every single time.

1193
00:52:57,240 --> 00:52:58,320
Oh man, they're all changed.

1194
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,800
It's like, again, it's like a drunk person.

1195
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:01,800
Yeah, 100%.

1196
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,480
I'm just gonna, you know, like edit the footer a little bit, but I'm also gonna delete like

1197
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:06,480
three menu items.

1198
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:12,360
Because we may not, I always hated them.

1199
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:17,280
So if I'm gonna make changes, I'm gonna, it's now or never.

1200
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,760
So that's why I want to have like these snippets that are basically, how do I get a profile?

1201
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,280
Okay, it's, these codes, snippets, five lines of code, that's it.

1202
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,360
How do I get the people that this person follows?

1203
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:30,360
How do I get the word of trust?

1204
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,520
Like very simple things.

1205
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,440
And then you can tell the LLM, okay, the indicate documentation is here.

1206
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:39,440
And that's it.

1207
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:44,280
And that's, that's kind of my thinking of we were, we were talking about the...

1208
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:45,840
You shouldn't write it though.

1209
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:46,840
Someone else should.

1210
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:47,840
With LLM help.

1211
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,320
You want to write it yourself?

1212
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,800
No, no, no, no, I'm getting the LLM to write it.

1213
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,800
I'm giving it pieces of all that's code.

1214
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,680
And this is, look at how I'm doing profiles.

1215
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:01,680
Okay.

1216
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:02,680
Now write as needed.

1217
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,680
I already, I did this yesterday night, by the way, I was like, you know, I just put all

1218
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,880
us in my project folder and, and, and, and just put it into, you know, get, ignore

1219
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,600
and all the other, like ignore it from the both perspective, ignore it from the get perspective.

1220
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,840
And it's like, hey, we have this all as folder.

1221
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,200
Like really, like look into it and see how it uses NDK, it uses NDK best practices and

1222
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:22,200
just do it the same way.

1223
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,200
Works really well.

1224
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:25,200
Yeah.

1225
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:33,640
Um, Doug from, from NOSU he built an MCP that is a NDK repo analyzer and it has an, and

1226
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,840
then an all as analyzer.

1227
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:41,280
And yes, how does all us do whatever and the case is back and all of this, the reference

1228
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,880
limitation is that basically it.

1229
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:51,080
But, but that's, that's, that has been always how I've done NDK, like NDK is a byproduct

1230
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:52,360
of me building things.

1231
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:53,360
Yeah.

1232
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,440
I need them built, which I think is the right way of building a library.

1233
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,800
You don't just say, oh, I'm going to spec a library.

1234
00:54:58,800 --> 00:54:59,800
Yeah.

1235
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:00,800
Let's imagine.

1236
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:01,800
Let's imagine.

1237
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:02,800
What might a developer want?

1238
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:03,800
Yeah.

1239
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:05,800
Yeah.

1240
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:06,800
And build what you need.

1241
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:07,800
Yeah.

1242
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,040
Um, that's why I, someone else added gift reps because I don't like gift reps.

1243
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,880
I, I don't think they're particularly interesting.

1244
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,680
So I never bothered other, othering gift reps.

1245
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:21,560
So five, um, yeah, five other, other, uh, gift reps.

1246
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:28,600
Um, but, but yeah, to, to, to, to me, the way I've always developed NDKs, I have a

1247
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:29,600
mono repo.

1248
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:34,560
I have in the same, in the same repository, I have a Git sub module.

1249
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:36,760
You're, you're, are you generally a mono repo guy?

1250
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:37,760
Oh, yeah.

1251
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:38,760
Yeah.

1252
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:44,200
I, I, I got turned into mono repos, maybe like, uh, my, I don't know, like a year ago

1253
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:45,200
or so.

1254
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,440
I, I, I thought I, I, I've known my Pablo, but no, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're

1255
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:56,080
surprising me, like every time we talk, you're like, what does you like about?

1256
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:01,240
I think it's like, uh, uh, you know, mono repos are like, like mushroom trips, like

1257
00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:05,240
if your first one is like really bad, then you just stay away from it for the rest of

1258
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:06,240
your life.

1259
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:07,240
He actually doesn't like them either.

1260
00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:10,560
He says, it's just because their Git is too complex.

1261
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:16,720
But if you know how to use Git and properly know how to use Git sub modules, it's great.

1262
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:21,840
How many foot guns, but it's okay.

1263
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:22,840
It's okay.

1264
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:23,840
It's okay.

1265
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,160
It's like, let's agree to disagree.

1266
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,160
I'm rather surprised.

1267
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:30,160
Yeah.

1268
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:31,160
Yeah.

1269
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:32,160
Yeah.

1270
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,680
No, I like, I like small modular things that stand on its own.

1271
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,200
It's, it's, it's like, you know, like an astronaut.

1272
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:39,200
I like that.

1273
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:40,200
Files.

1274
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:41,200
Reloved files.

1275
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:42,200
Yeah.

1276
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,240
You know, like it's, everything on file should be hit on base.

1277
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:45,240
I don't know.

1278
00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:47,360
I don't want, I don't like one thing that holds all the things.

1279
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:52,800
Oh, no, no, no, no, but I do a, every part of the mono repo is a Git sub module.

1280
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:54,880
It's a, it's its own repo.

1281
00:56:54,880 --> 00:57:00,160
It's just then I structured the project, big build, driving all the different models.

1282
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:01,160
That's fine.

1283
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:02,160
That's fine.

1284
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:03,160
That's fine.

1285
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:04,160
It's okay.

1286
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:05,160
That's okay.

1287
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:10,160
No, if it works for you, I'm happy.

1288
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,760
But you just, you have all your projects in the mono repo or just like for all us developers.

1289
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:18,760
No, it's just the ones that are required, a lot of changes on, on NDK, because otherwise

1290
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:20,520
you need to go back and forth.

1291
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:21,520
Yeah.

1292
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:22,520
No, that makes sense.

1293
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:23,520
That makes sense.

1294
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:24,520
Yeah, that makes sense.

1295
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:25,520
That makes sense.

1296
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,960
So if you, if you, you're, you're building something in all us and you need to tweak

1297
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:28,960
NDK.

1298
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,320
I can just go tweak and decay.

1299
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:32,320
I don't have to release.

1300
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:33,520
I don't have to do anything.

1301
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,520
It's just, it's just there.

1302
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,520
And then once it's stable, I can, I can commit to master and I can do all the things, you

1303
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:41,520
know.

1304
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:42,520
But yeah.

1305
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:43,520
Yeah.

1306
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:48,360
Before adopting this strategy, I was going back and forth all the time and then just

1307
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:54,240
linking in the file system and it was always problematic doing it that way.

1308
00:57:54,240 --> 00:58:01,000
But yeah, like I wrote the, I, I wrote the, did you see that I relaunched the reminder

1309
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:05,280
bot that you can do, that remind me and in one year.

1310
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:06,280
Nice.

1311
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:07,280
Nice.

1312
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,960
Because I had written that bot, whatever, like two years ago, and then we changed the

1313
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:16,080
way we do mentions before we were doing mentions as a positional.

1314
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:22,880
So say, for example, you would do, if you, I wanted to mention you, I would put hashtag

1315
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:27,680
zero and then the first P tag would be your puppy.

1316
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:32,760
So that reminding bot was using that way of doing, which kind of sucked, it was like

1317
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,480
very inconsistent and problematic.

1318
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:37,880
So it made sense to change it.

1319
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:44,440
But we changed it to noster, colon and profiler, and which it makes more sense, but it broke

1320
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:45,440
my bot.

1321
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:47,000
And I got really pissed off.

1322
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,920
So I didn't fix it for two years.

1323
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:55,880
I got really angry breaking changes kind of stuff.

1324
00:58:55,880 --> 00:59:00,480
I like, by the way, that vibe coding brings back the emotional side of coding in a big

1325
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:01,480
way.

1326
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:06,960
It's just like, it's because it's very conversational and it's just like, it's, you'll be angry at

1327
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,800
your, you know, partner basically.

1328
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,960
And also, like, vibe coding UIs, for example, it's just like, make it pretty and make it

1329
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:20,840
really calm or like make it like a, let's give it like a 90s, a cypherpunk look, whatever.

1330
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,840
And so it will understand all of that.

1331
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:29,120
Did I, I, so I've been working on, on stories for, for all us, which are, I'm very curious

1332
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:30,120
what you think of stories.

1333
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:37,200
Have you ever used stories, which I've never created one, I assume them a little bit.

1334
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:39,760
I mean, I try to give all the things a try.

1335
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:41,760
I use all the things.

1336
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:48,760
Like I use Snapchat, I use TikTok and so on, but just purely from a, from a consumer perspective.

1337
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,760
But I'm, I'm, I'm not the biggest.

1338
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:51,760
What is this?

1339
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:52,760
Only fans.

1340
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:53,760
Subscription.

1341
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:54,760
I'm just trying.

1342
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,760
I'm looking at what the market thinks.

1343
00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:01,760
That's the only, that's the, that's the only side I use as a creator.

1344
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:02,760
100% creation.

1345
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:03,760
Oh, shit.

1346
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:04,760
Oh, fuck.

1347
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:05,760
No, my hat.

1348
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:06,760
Oh my God.

1349
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:07,760
That's gone.

1350
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:08,760
And I can't run.

1351
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:09,760
There we go.

1352
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:10,760
That's good.

1353
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,760
I'm surprised it didn't blew off before.

1354
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:24,760
Almost, almost lost the awesome Southern engineering head.

1355
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:31,760
They are very, as I was working on stories, I was like, oh my God, I feel like I'm 16,

1356
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:33,760
a 16 year old girl.

1357
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:41,760
But it's actually a very interesting, pretend you're a 16 year old girl that also happens

1358
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:42,760
to be a software developer.

1359
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,760
We're going to build stories.

1360
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:47,760
Okay, cutie.

1361
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:53,760
And it's like the story has to be like.

1362
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,760
So you were saying you're my own stories into all of us?

1363
01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:58,760
Yeah.

1364
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,760
So I, I, they have like this concept of stickers, which are like overlays, basically.

1365
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:04,760
Like video or whatever.

1366
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,760
And I wanted to have like a bunch of different styles.

1367
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,760
And I totally come up with like 20 styles.

1368
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:12,760
That's it.

1369
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:18,760
And I totally run them styles, use different gradients or use whatever, like just whatever.

1370
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,760
I came up with really cool styles.

1371
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,760
Like very creative, man.

1372
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:25,760
Yeah.

1373
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:26,760
Yeah.

1374
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:28,760
That's, that's strange, right?

1375
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,760
It is so strange.

1376
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,760
Because creativity was such a sacred call, in some sense.

1377
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,760
And actually, I have to see if I can find the fucking email again.

1378
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,760
I wrote an email to an old old old friend of mine.

1379
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:48,760
Like, again, as I, as I told you, like I've been in the kind of AI singularity world pre-Bitcoin,

1380
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:49,760
basically.

1381
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:55,760
And, and so, so a lot of people were predicting that, that, that creativity is actually something

1382
01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:00,760
that will emerge out of kind of general intelligence systems, basically.

1383
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:02,760
And that's what we kind of see happening now.

1384
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,760
I mean, people still are skeptical because lots of the AI generated art, for example,

1385
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,760
they will say it has no soul and so on.

1386
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:13,760
But just today in the morning, I, you know, I use AI generated art a lot for my GM posts.

1387
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,760
And, and one reply was, ah, that's, that's such a soulful image.

1388
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,760
Or it hits right into my soul or something like that.

1389
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,760
And I was like, oh, well, see, you know, there you go.

1390
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,760
And, and I still think we're just at the beginning of all of that.

1391
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:27,760
I, I don't think that creativity is a sacred cow.

1392
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:33,760
And I think just playing around with cursor a lot, um, it's obviously creative.

1393
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:38,760
Like I, I just, I tell it to generate SVGs as the logos all the time and those kinds of things.

1394
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,760
And it will create something that's actually fitting to the project based on the project name

1395
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:44,760
and what it does and those kinds of things.

1396
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:45,760
It's, it's, it's really insane.

1397
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:50,760
Like, what, how do you call that except for creativity?

1398
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:57,760
Yeah, I, I feel that a little instant to exceed that creativity, especially visually,

1399
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,760
which is kind of surprising.

1400
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:01,760
Yeah.

1401
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,760
It's, I, I mean, I was enamored when mid-journey came out.

1402
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:05,760
Yeah.

1403
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,760
And like I was, I was prompting mid-journey for months.

1404
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,760
Like I was, I felt really down that hole.

1405
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:14,760
And you replace your Twitter eviction.

1406
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:15,760
Yeah.

1407
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:16,760
Yeah.

1408
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:18,760
You're, you're Twitter side geek.

1409
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,760
I mean, if, if I'm interested in something, I go like, full on, you know.

1410
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:28,760
And, and it was amazing to me like the, the things that it was able to come up with.

1411
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:34,760
But it's also, there's multiple layers of interestingness because it's also like when it's novel,

1412
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:36,760
like I was blown away.

1413
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:40,760
Now I can identify a lot of, of the mid-journey stuff.

1414
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,760
You know, it's just, you can, you can see that it looks AI generated.

1415
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,760
So our pattern recognition is still like incredibly good.

1416
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:48,760
Yeah.

1417
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,760
But I still think that most people are fooled by photorealistic portrait shots, for example.

1418
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:57,760
It's like, oh, so you see it now with the, with the influencer crowd and so on.

1419
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:01,760
It's like most bikini models and stuff that you see online.

1420
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:07,760
And it, it, in like new accounts and so on, it's, it's either AI enhanced or AI generated.

1421
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:09,760
And, and people cannot tell the difference.

1422
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,760
It's, it's, it's also for like, you know, product models.

1423
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:14,760
And what do you think about that?

1424
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:15,760
What do you think about that?

1425
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:17,760
What do you want going?

1426
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:20,760
I think, I think, I think it was always fake.

1427
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:24,760
Like, just look at the model and supermodel world.

1428
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:27,760
Like, there was always lots of fakery at play.

1429
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:29,760
Just, I mean, makeup is the first step.

1430
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:37,760
And then you add Photoshop to it and, and perfect, you know, light and like really knowing how to photograph people and so on.

1431
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,760
But I think we will figure it out.

1432
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:41,760
That's a society.

1433
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:43,760
I don't, I don't have anything else to say.

1434
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:49,760
But I think that's what's so awesome about Nostra because what people really crave is realness.

1435
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:51,760
They want stuff to be real.

1436
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,760
But they really think, do you think the realness can be also from a bot?

1437
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:01,760
I think, yes, in some sense, yes.

1438
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:03,760
I think that Japanese are good at that.

1439
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,760
Like, people fell in love with their like, you know, Tamagotchi or like, even with the Roomba.

1440
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:08,760
They put, they put...

1441
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:16,760
But they, but they put like, like little cute ears on the Roomba and pretend it's a cat and so on.

1442
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,760
And then it's like a real thing, you know what I mean?

1443
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:20,760
But, but it's...

1444
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:27,760
The reason why I keep coming back to the realness part because, because on the Nostra side, like, saps are really real.

1445
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:28,760
Saps are real.

1446
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:29,760
I mean, you can fake saps.

1447
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:30,760
I mean, I know that.

1448
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:31,760
But like, saps are real.

1449
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:34,760
Like, if the sap is not faked, it's really real.

1450
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:35,760
But you know what I mean?

1451
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:37,760
It's like, it's...

1452
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:43,760
And right now I think the Nostra, what's happening on Nostra, even though we have a lot of bots and we have a lot of problems and bullshit and so on,

1453
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,760
it is a very real thing and a very real community.

1454
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:48,760
And you have very real human interactions.

1455
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:50,760
And I think that's what people want.

1456
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,760
And I think with the AI-generated stuff, art and so on,

1457
01:05:54,760 --> 01:06:02,760
if it enhances the human experience, then I don't think...

1458
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:04,760
I have a problem with it.

1459
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:06,760
Who cares if you use the pencil?

1460
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:08,760
Or you use GPUs?

1461
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:10,760
But also, who cares if it was...

1462
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:16,760
I don't know, like Socrates or an AI that came up with a profound line that changes your life.

1463
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:17,760
Who cares?

1464
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:19,760
It's again, like, where does it come from? It doesn't matter.

1465
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:20,760
Just like we said with the articles.

1466
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:22,760
Like, where was it originally published? It doesn't matter.

1467
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:24,760
It matters how it hits you, basically.

1468
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,760
Which is kind of like when people, like the big cashers, they say,

1469
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:30,760
oh, well Satoshi said the...

1470
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:32,760
Oh, well, you know what I mean?

1471
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:38,760
Satoshi built a half-baked polka client into his 800-line main.cpp file

1472
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:40,760
and it's a complete insanity.

1473
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:45,760
How about the authority bias?

1474
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:49,760
It's like such a common bias to fall for, right?

1475
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:50,760
Absolutely.

1476
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,760
I mean, I talked to Paul also briefly about this,

1477
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:57,760
where it's just people, humans crave an authority figure.

1478
01:06:57,760 --> 01:06:59,760
You want someone...

1479
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:01,760
You want someone to look up to, you want...

1480
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:03,760
Like...

1481
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:05,760
That's just how hard...

1482
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:07,760
Someone to make all their opinions.

1483
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:09,760
I have a lot of information I don't have any wisdom.

1484
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:11,760
And what can you tell me?

1485
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:13,760
It's also...

1486
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:18,760
Someone might say something profound, and you hate that person for another reason.

1487
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:21,760
Like, let's say an awesome quote from Adolf Hitler.

1488
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:23,760
It's like, people are not...

1489
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:25,760
You're not allowed to like it.

1490
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:26,760
Yeah, you're not allowed to...

1491
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:28,760
But you know what I'm trying to say?

1492
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:30,760
It's like...

1493
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:33,760
I mean, there's also like Ted Kacinski, or...

1494
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:36,760
There's many people that you can pick as examples that you can pick a quote

1495
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:39,760
and you don't know who it's from, and it's actually a good quote.

1496
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:41,760
It's actually a profound quote, or whatever.

1497
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:43,760
And then after the fact you find out who said it,

1498
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:45,760
and it completely changes the meaning.

1499
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:47,760
It completely destroys it for you.

1500
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:49,760
I read...

1501
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:51,760
You know what the fuck is?

1502
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:55,760
The guy that was Minister of Economy in Greece

1503
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:57,760
during like the 2008 debacle.

1504
01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:58,760
Oh, no.

1505
01:07:58,760 --> 01:07:59,760
He wrote a bunch of books.

1506
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:00,760
Okay.

1507
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:01,760
And he wrote...

1508
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:04,760
Last year, he wrote a book about digital overlords.

1509
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:05,760
I don't know.

1510
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:10,760
That was in the title, but it was like something about the digital era or something like that.

1511
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:17,760
And there is this whole chapter, or a few chapters, about Bitcoin and crypto and blockchain.

1512
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:18,760
The guy profound...

1513
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:21,760
I mean, not profound, but he understands Bitcoin quite well.

1514
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:22,760
Interesting.

1515
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:24,760
Like, all the way to proof of work, why proof of work matters.

1516
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:27,760
Like, he understands it quite well.

1517
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:29,760
And he makes...

1518
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:35,760
He then just lamps Bitcoin with all of crypto, where he starts going off the rails.

1519
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:42,760
And he makes a very strong case against crypto, and including Bitcoin in it.

1520
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:47,760
But the strong case that he makes up against crypto is something that you could have written.

1521
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:50,760
It's something profound, well-written,

1522
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:55,760
and well-articulated arguments from a thoughtful person.

1523
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:57,760
He just happened to all think with Bitcoin.

1524
01:08:57,760 --> 01:08:58,760
Yeah.

1525
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:01,760
The guy is a complete communist and a complete moron.

1526
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,760
I mean, many people said it's about me as well.

1527
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,760
You're a friend of ours.

1528
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,760
Shout-out and became, yeah.

1529
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:11,760
Shout-out and became.

1530
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:13,760
Shout-out and became.

1531
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:24,760
But if you remove the counter-arguments against crypto, you remove the author.

1532
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,760
You say, oh, yeah, I completely agree with this.

1533
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:29,760
The fact that this guy, this communist, wrote it.

1534
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:31,760
It doesn't change the fact.

1535
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:32,760
Yeah.

1536
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:33,760
It's funny how...

1537
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:37,760
Like, I just said before, it shouldn't matter where the information comes from.

1538
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:41,760
But I think I just changed my mind on it because it's...

1539
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,760
The additional context can completely change its meaning.

1540
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:47,760
So it kind of, it shouldn't matter, but it both...

1541
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:49,760
It matters and it doesn't matter at the same time.

1542
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:50,760
It matters in some cases.

1543
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:51,760
Yeah.

1544
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:53,760
It's, again, like, if...

1545
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:55,760
You know, like, you think it's an awesome statement,

1546
01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:57,760
and then you find out, again, like, a hit-level audit,

1547
01:09:57,760 --> 01:09:59,760
or whatever, it completely changes its meaning.

1548
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:00,760
It completely...

1549
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:02,760
It changes everything, basically.

1550
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,760
And so, yeah, again, I...

1551
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:07,760
I have zero answers to this stuff.

1552
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:08,760
It's...

1553
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:09,760
No solutions.

1554
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:15,760
Someone told me, like, it's always good to add context to the LLM prompts.

1555
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:17,760
You know, like, more context is always good.

1556
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:18,760
I'm not even sure if that's true.

1557
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:19,760
I don't think so.

1558
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:21,760
I don't think that's the case.

1559
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:29,760
Since now, we shift from being a win-only podcast to being an AI podcast as well.

1560
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:32,760
So, I mean, the obvious question that everybody's asking is,

1561
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:35,760
where does all of these leave us?

1562
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,760
Where will it go with the AI stuff, you mean?

1563
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:43,760
Yeah, with the AI stuff, and let's bake in an assumption of, like,

1564
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:48,760
a 10x, at least, improvement, I think that's a very easy consensus view

1565
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,760
that it can get 10x better in the next, whatever year.

1566
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:54,760
I would say that probably it's going to get, like, 100x better, at least.

1567
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:55,760
Yeah.

1568
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:57,760
I'm going to link to Vivek's AI arguments again,

1569
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:02,760
because I think he is one of the best and clearest thinkers, contemporary thinkers,

1570
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:04,760
on this topic right now.

1571
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:10,760
I think he's right that there are certain...

1572
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:15,760
So, he talks about meaning a lot.

1573
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:17,760
And how do we figure out what is meaningful?

1574
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:20,760
And it relates to, you know, okay, this quote is meaningful.

1575
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:23,760
Okay, I just found out that it was written by Hitler.

1576
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:25,760
No, it's not meaningful to me anymore.

1577
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:30,760
You know, like, meaning is the, how do we extract meaning from information

1578
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:32,760
is insanely hard.

1579
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:36,760
It's basically the AI problem in some sense, the general intelligence problem.

1580
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:38,760
It's the human problem.

1581
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:44,760
And more than that, I'm also going to, like, I love David Foster Wallace's commencement speech,

1582
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:46,760
and what the hell is water?

1583
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:47,760
Like, this is water.

1584
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:48,760
This is the title.

1585
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:51,760
And he talks about constructing meaning from experience.

1586
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:59,760
And so, the human experience levels out at the base in actual sensory experience.

1587
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,760
You're interacting and interfacing with the world.

1588
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:09,760
And so, we're making our use that to actually pass the threshold.

1589
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,760
You have to embody an AI.

1590
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,760
AI has to be embodied, and it has to be experiential.

1591
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:17,760
Like, it has to experience stuff.

1592
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,760
It has to experience the real world directly.

1593
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,760
And so, he mentions that we are at a decision point.

1594
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:25,760
Do we want to do this?

1595
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:27,760
And are we in the age of our AI overlords?

1596
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:28,760
Or no.

1597
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:35,760
And if they don't have bodies, in some sense, you need direct contact with reality

1598
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:41,760
to course correct, to literally stay on the ground.

1599
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:43,760
Listen to the metaphors that we use.

1600
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:45,760
You have to stay on the ground.

1601
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:50,760
You have to be in touch, in touch, in touch with the world and with reality.

1602
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:52,760
And so, AI's aren't that.

1603
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:54,760
That's why they hallucinate a lot, it bullshit a lot.

1604
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,760
And that's the thing about, like, highly creative people, for example.

1605
01:12:57,760 --> 01:12:58,760
They hallucinate as well.

1606
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:00,760
And it's like, you can't go insane.

1607
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:05,760
Like, highly creative people, geniuses, the edge between genius and madman

1608
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:07,760
is a very, very thin one for that reason.

1609
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,760
If you're highly intelligent and highly creative, you might lose touch with reality.

1610
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:15,760
So, you need something that keeps you grounded and keeps you on the ground,

1611
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:17,760
which is, like, your body and those kind of things.

1612
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:18,760
Like, that's how it works.

1613
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:22,760
And so, AI has to, the AI stuff has to work in the same way, I think.

1614
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:26,760
And so, I don't think that, of course, our alone and LLM's alone

1615
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:33,760
will kind of drastically kind of, you know, lead us to the singularity or whatever,

1616
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:34,760
those kind of things.

1617
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:35,760
Like, I don't believe that anymore.

1618
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,760
But I think what's kind of in the very near term,

1619
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:43,760
I mean, we are at the tip of despair when it comes to at least, like,

1620
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:47,760
nostril development and kind of trying wild things on the nostocite, basically, you know?

1621
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:51,760
And I think, for our use case specifically,

1622
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:57,760
and we're just, you know, like one small, tiny niche of the niche subgroup on the internet,

1623
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:02,760
it will accelerate experimentation and exploration massively.

1624
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:06,760
And I think it will be, it will lower the cost of software development drastically.

1625
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:09,760
And I think we see this also in other areas where it just, like,

1626
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:15,760
it drives the cost down so much, like, stock photography, logo design, blog post writing,

1627
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:16,760
all those kind of things.

1628
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:18,760
Like, LLM's can do all of that very well.

1629
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:21,760
Writing documentation, like, summarizing technical documents and so on.

1630
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:27,760
It's like one prompt away and it does as good of a job that an intern would do.

1631
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:31,760
And so it just drives costs down massively and it accelerates stuff massively,

1632
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:33,760
which I think for us is good.

1633
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:37,760
And let me end on kind of, like, where I see it leading in terms from the economical side.

1634
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:41,760
It's like, I wrote, like, many, many years ago, it was a tweet.

1635
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:43,760
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna post it in that tweet,

1636
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,760
but I'm gonna post it to nostril, I'm gonna write it again.

1637
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:50,760
And Bitcoin is Singularity Insurance.

1638
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:51,760
Oh, yeah.

1639
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:57,760
So it is the one thing where the machines can't make more of,

1640
01:14:57,760 --> 01:14:59,760
which is really important.

1641
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:03,760
We were telling all these with our friend, Jeff, the one that came.

1642
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:05,760
Yes or the, all of these.

1643
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:06,760
Yeah.

1644
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:08,760
So, because it's extremely deflationary.

1645
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:09,760
Yeah.

1646
01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:10,760
It is.

1647
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:11,760
The AI.

1648
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:12,760
It is.

1649
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:13,760
I mean, technology, I mean, that's Jeff Booth.

1650
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:14,760
Yeah.

1651
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:15,760
Not in the, not in the terms.

1652
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:17,760
Technology is inflationary period.

1653
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:21,760
But it's like, the only way to, for, for, for anyone,

1654
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:25,760
including AI, to make more Bitcoin, is to actually provide a useful service

1655
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:28,760
and make other people give you the Bitcoin voluntarily.

1656
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:30,760
It's the only way, basically.

1657
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:31,760
I mean, you know, crime excluded.

1658
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,760
But if you know what you're doing, it's very hard to steal someone's Bitcoin.

1659
01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:41,760
And so, so, so I, I think we will have, like, that's where I see it going.

1660
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:44,760
You need to, you need to, economically speaking,

1661
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:46,760
you will need to protect your wealth with Bitcoin.

1662
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:48,760
I don't think there is another way because also, I mean,

1663
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:52,760
the European Union is openly talking about taking away everyone's saving

1664
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:54,760
for the public good, you know?

1665
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:56,760
So, so that's where we're heading.

1666
01:15:56,760 --> 01:16:03,760
And, and I think, yeah, I, I, I view, I view it as a massive,

1667
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:05,760
accelerant, but both ways.

1668
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,760
Not only, like, it will accelerate everything.

1669
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:10,760
Not only the bad things and not only the good things,

1670
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:12,760
it will accelerate all the things.

1671
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:14,760
How do you say it?

1672
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:23,760
So, I mean, we, we've discussed this, but, um, the, what, what I see is how,

1673
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:28,760
I keep hearing, I keep hearing from developers that try the thing

1674
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:30,760
and see that it fucking works.

1675
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:33,760
Oh, fuck my, my job is done.

1676
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:35,760
I will not, I will not have a job.

1677
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:39,760
And, and I think that's largely true for a lot of people.

1678
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:40,760
Mm.

1679
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:43,760
But I think that's largely true for all the execution people.

1680
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:46,760
Like, all the execution people are done.

1681
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:49,760
Um, like coding pians, like, that work.

1682
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:50,760
Yes.

1683
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:51,760
Yeah.

1684
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:52,760
Creating.

1685
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:54,760
And, and inside is going to be more important going.

1686
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:56,760
It's going to be so much more important.

1687
01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:57,760
And, and so accelerating.

1688
01:16:57,760 --> 01:16:58,760
Yeah.

1689
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:00,760
I think also taste is going to be way more important.

1690
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:04,760
Like, again, knowing, knowing what to build and knowing kind of what is good.

1691
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:07,760
Like, separating the, the, the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

1692
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:09,760
It's going to be very important.

1693
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:15,760
And, and I think also Bitcoin, the design of, like, the technical design of Bitcoin

1694
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,760
has incredibly important implications.

1695
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:22,760
Bitcoin could not be Bitcoin with a 10 second block time.

1696
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:23,760
It would be a different thing.

1697
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:25,760
I know a guy who wrote about this a lot.

1698
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:26,760
Like, in the day.

1699
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:28,760
One of these think boys.

1700
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:29,760
Yeah.

1701
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:31,760
Terrible communist.

1702
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:43,760
And I, I think there is, um, the, the technical, the, the values that emerged from the software,

1703
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:46,760
um, are in the realm of philosophy.

1704
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:54,760
Um, and I don't think I don't think the, the, the, the LMS are going to be able to.

1705
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:57,760
They don't have their own teleology to use passwords.

1706
01:17:57,760 --> 01:17:58,760
Exactly.

1707
01:17:58,760 --> 01:17:59,760
Yeah.

1708
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:00,760
They cannot assess.

1709
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:01,760
Why do you do something?

1710
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:02,760
Why do something?

1711
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:03,760
Yes.

1712
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:04,760
Why build it?

1713
01:18:04,760 --> 01:18:05,760
Why do something?

1714
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:06,760
Why use it?

1715
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:09,760
They're not good at answering why questions in the, in the existential sense.

1716
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:10,760
Exactly.

1717
01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:11,760
Exactly.

1718
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:12,760
And that is so important.

1719
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:13,760
Yeah.

1720
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:17,760
Because if Bitcoin shares had been prompted into existence with a 10 second block time,

1721
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:18,760
we would not have Bitcoin.

1722
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:19,760
Yeah.

1723
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:20,760
It would have been nothing.

1724
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:21,760
Yeah.

1725
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:25,760
I mean, the, the, the, why did Satoshi build Bitcoin?

1726
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:27,760
Like, he had his reasons.

1727
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:29,760
He articulated them very well.

1728
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:32,760
But I think it's fascinating about the, the, the, why of Bitcoin.

1729
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:35,760
It's like, he tried to solve like five problems at once.

1730
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:39,760
Like, even in the announcement post, like the two paragraphs of the announcement post mentioned,

1731
01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:41,760
like a couple of problems all at once.

1732
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:45,760
It's like, it's, it's the, the, the micro payment problem, the privacy problem,

1733
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:49,760
the credit bubble problem, you know, the sound money problem.

1734
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:50,760
It's like insane.

1735
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:53,760
It's like he basically tried to hit like five flies with one stone.

1736
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:55,760
And he basically managed.

1737
01:18:55,760 --> 01:19:00,760
I mean, micro payments took a little while, but everything else he basically managed.

1738
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:07,760
And, and I think the, yeah, the, but it's also the hardest question to ask yourself, right?

1739
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:09,760
Like, why, why, why do anything?

1740
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:10,760
Why do anything?

1741
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:11,760
Why stack sets?

1742
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:13,760
Why, like, what, what gives life meaning?

1743
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:15,760
Why do, why do anything at all?

1744
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:16,760
Why have kids?

1745
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:17,760
Why do anything?

1746
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:24,760
Like, why not just lay on the beach and, and sip margaritas all day or just like, whatever, you know?

1747
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:30,760
I mean, my answer would be like, have you tried, have you tried retiring for like two weeks?

1748
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:34,760
You have to do something.

1749
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:41,760
No, and that's also to the LLM's like actually doing something because it's very hard to start something new.

1750
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:42,760
It's very, very hard.

1751
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:52,760
But if the Internet taught us anything, it's like making stuff more accessible and easier to do will lead to a proliferation of like output, so to speak.

1752
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:56,760
It's like, we have more writers now than, than at any point in history.

1753
01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:00,760
We have more people taking photographs than we had at any point in history.

1754
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:04,760
We have probably more software engineers and coders and stuff than at any point in history.

1755
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:08,760
And the more accessible the stuff becomes, I think it will unleash human creativity.

1756
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:10,760
I know that it does it for me.

1757
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:12,760
Like starting with like image prompting.

1758
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:17,760
It unleashed something in me and it brought me back to photography a little bit, for example.

1759
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:21,760
And also on the writing side, you know, like it's, it, it, it, it unleashed certain things for me.

1760
01:20:21,760 --> 01:20:23,760
And now on the coding side as well.

1761
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:27,760
And someone just, I think it was, who was it?

1762
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:30,760
God damn it, I think it was Carnage.

1763
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:50,760
We're basically mentioning that, you know, like where at the point now where if you want to teach your kid another language, it's just like one prompt away that will auto-generate, you know, very good specifically designed for your needs course that you can just follow and apply.

1764
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:55,760
And so all you need now is motivation, basically.

1765
01:20:55,760 --> 01:21:03,760
You just need to be motivated to do something and actually doing something is, I think, easier than it ever was.

1766
01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:11,760
And I mean that in a very general sense because you can, you have, you have like a very knowledgeable assistant now that you can career at any time and it's like,

1767
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:14,760
Hey, I want to start a business in this jurisdiction. What are the steps I need to take?

1768
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:17,760
Hey, I want to launch an online thing and here is how it should work.

1769
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:18,760
What do I need to do?

1770
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:22,760
And it will do step-by-step guide you and do it, it will do it with you.

1771
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:33,760
And with the, you know, like Chinese stuff that's coming out right now with like the next iteration of those things will actually do the things for you, like in a meaningful way, help you do that.

1772
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:36,760
And I think it will unleash a lot of stuff.

1773
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:47,760
With going back to the point that you made about the number of authors of writers and we have more writers now than any point in history.

1774
01:21:47,760 --> 01:22:02,760
Yes, but I think the fact that the distribution channel has been the internet for the most part in the past couple of decades and it has all been funneled into

1775
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:07,760
two, three, five, ten different platforms that

1776
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:11,760
demand a certain shape.

1777
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:12,760
Yeah.

1778
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:17,760
Even though we have a larger number, there is also a crisis of sameness, right?

1779
01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:18,760
Yeah.

1780
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:20,760
It all kind of sounds the same as the same structure.

1781
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:23,760
That's a crisis of quality in some sense also, right?

1782
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:26,760
It's like we have the quantity, but we don't necessarily have the quantity.

1783
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:37,760
But I think that's what's absolutely fascinating because you know that my wife is very much into the world of indie writers and indie publishers writing fiction and stuff like that.

1784
01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:44,760
And she's been, she went to a few of these conferences for indie writers and self-published authors that they have.

1785
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:50,760
And 95% of the content of the conference is about marketing.

1786
01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:58,760
Not about the craft, not about how to create tension and plots and all these things, which are fascinating topics.

1787
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:01,760
It's all about how do you rank enough?

1788
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:02,760
Yeah.

1789
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:03,760
It is 100% about that, right?

1790
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:04,760
How do you gain the algorithm?

1791
01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:05,760
How do you gain the algorithm?

1792
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:15,760
And what is interesting is that every single person agrees that the game is a numbers game, you have to publish a book every four months.

1793
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:17,760
Just write what you can write.

1794
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:19,760
I mean, that explains the quality crisis.

1795
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:20,760
Yeah, 100%.

1796
01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:21,760
Don't edit.

1797
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:25,760
Just go to market every four months, because if you have 20 books, it's good.

1798
01:23:25,760 --> 01:23:26,760
But if you have 30, it's better.

1799
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:27,760
Yeah.

1800
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:30,760
I mean, everyone, does any kind of content production knows this?

1801
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:34,760
Like you have to just last it out constantly, relentlessly and so on.

1802
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:36,760
Do you have any resemblance of success in today's world?

1803
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:45,760
But now, kind of like a gun, the fact that you can prompt 10 books a day, easily, 10 books a day.

1804
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:48,760
And you can have aliens, Asians, that publish your books.

1805
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:49,760
Sure.

1806
01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:50,760
Completely flattens the time.

1807
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:52,760
It doesn't matter if you know you can write 50 books a day.

1808
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:59,760
It was actually my first thought when I played around with LLM Tax Generation, like when was it like two years ago or whatever.

1809
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:04,760
Like, you should focus on a market where people just would not know this.

1810
01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:05,760
Like, right?

1811
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:06,760
I don't know.

1812
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:13,760
Like, vampire love story novels geared towards like 60 plus women crowd or whatever.

1813
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:16,760
Like, like, you know, like my mom, basically.

1814
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:21,760
We're always my mom because she doesn't know about this stuff.

1815
01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:27,760
She wouldn't even, if you would tell her like she maybe wouldn't believe that it's all degenerated or she wouldn't care.

1816
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:33,760
And you can't just crank out like at least a book a day and just like just blast it out.

1817
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:43,760
I'm sure people do that by the way, but it's interesting that, again, like lowering the barrier to entry is not always good.

1818
01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:48,760
So everything I said, like take everything, always everything I say with a large grain of salt.

1819
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:53,760
Because it's, it's, yeah, I don't know.

1820
01:24:53,760 --> 01:25:01,760
I mean, I think Bitcoin counterbalances that in some way because if you have patronage and you're not, you're not, you don't have to make money to survive,

1821
01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:04,760
then you can focus on something and create something amazing.

1822
01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:06,760
And we see this in the world of artists, Bitcoin artists.

1823
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:12,760
Like, you're fractal and crypto, for example, who will work on a single piece for like two years.

1824
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:15,760
And put all his heart and soul into it, because he can.

1825
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:19,760
Because he can monetarily speaking and he can, like financially speaking and so on.

1826
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:21,760
And I think, I think it's no accident.

1827
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:22,760
Safedine talks about this a lot.

1828
01:25:22,760 --> 01:25:30,760
It's no accident that the ballot pocket, the, the, the period of the gold standard had insane artistic output.

1829
01:25:30,760 --> 01:25:32,760
And like very, very, very high quality.

1830
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:41,760
And we had a lot of, again, like lots of this stuff was, was financed with very wealthy patrons, which we're able to accumulate capital and actually save and so on

1831
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:43,760
because it was just, you were able to do that.

1832
01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:46,760
But yeah, I don't know. I don't, I don't have a better answer.

1833
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:49,760
It's, it's, it's definitely weird fucking times, man.

1834
01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:50,760
It's really weird.

1835
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:51,760
It's fucking weird.

1836
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:52,760
It's really weird.

1837
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:53,760
I need such an accelerated base too.

1838
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:54,760
Yeah.

1839
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:58,760
Like I didn't, in 10 years, it's going to be fucking impossible to recognize.

1840
01:25:58,760 --> 01:26:01,760
I mean, I think we'll also have like hyper personalized niche stuff.

1841
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:07,760
That's, that's kind of a side effect of the internet that I didn't predict back in the day where it's just like,

1842
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:10,760
the internet actually basically fractured society in a massive way.

1843
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:13,760
Because you actually can't find your people now way easier.

1844
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:21,760
We're still, we're still, you know, like very communal clan tribe like people.

1845
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:23,760
And it doesn't matter how crazy you are.

1846
01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:26,760
You'll, you'll find another thousand people online that are just like you.

1847
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:27,760
It doesn't matter what your niche is.

1848
01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:34,760
And now, for example, Joe, like he's using the, like, he's prompting songs into existence.

1849
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:37,760
And they are, they're actually like they slap.

1850
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:38,760
They're, they're not bad.

1851
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:40,760
And it's like songs about summer engineering.

1852
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:45,760
It was like, you know, inside jokes of like the 20 people that are here basically.

1853
01:26:45,760 --> 01:26:46,760
It's, it's really weird.

1854
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:57,760
And, and I think like Paul had this idea also of, you know, like, like just building very, very, very specific user experiences.

1855
01:26:57,760 --> 01:26:58,760
Like very specific apps.

1856
01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:02,760
Just like for a very small group of people or even for yourself.

1857
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:04,760
And kind of making that easier.

1858
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:07,760
And maybe, I don't know, it's, it's so strange.

1859
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:11,760
It's, because I think we will have that.

1860
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:17,760
I think we will also have like hyper personalized stories or like very niche stories and content and all that kind of stuff.

1861
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:21,760
Oh, I think, I think that the Kindle is going to turn into a device that just creates a story.

1862
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:22,760
A book just for you.

1863
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:23,760
Just for you for now.

1864
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:26,760
But, but, but I think, I think we also, we will have the counterbalance.

1865
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:31,760
We have, like, why do we tell the same stories over the course of human history?

1866
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:33,760
Over and over and over again.

1867
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:34,760
Absolutely.

1868
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:35,760
And again, like Vivek, he talks about this a lot.

1869
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:37,760
Jonathan Perchow also talks about this a lot.

1870
01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:40,760
It's like there, there is, there are very deep truths embedded in this story.

1871
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:46,760
They are like narrative truths and mythological truths in the sense of mythos.

1872
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:51,760
Not in the sense of it being untrue, but in the sense of like this will teach you something.

1873
01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:52,760
Yeah.

1874
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:53,760
And it's always the same thing.

1875
01:27:53,760 --> 01:28:00,760
So if you know this story, then you can hopefully learn something from it and not repay the same mistakes that humans always,

1876
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:04,760
have made for the last like 10,000 plus years.

1877
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:12,760
And so, I'm not sure if the deep truths will be embedded in the hyper-personalized stuff.

1878
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:13,760
I don't know.

1879
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:14,760
Who knows?

1880
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:18,760
Yeah, I think that's what's, I find this whole tension interesting.

1881
01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:23,760
And with regards to the highly personalized, I think I told you that I think we're going to end up.

1882
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:28,760
And I'm pretty sure that we're going to end up with every single person has a client,

1883
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:32,760
and the applications are custom built for that one person.

1884
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:36,760
They're only recently, we all have to use the same interface.

1885
01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:42,760
The exact same apps is because it's just not cost efficient to build an apps just for you.

1886
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:43,760
Yeah.

1887
01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:46,760
I'm sure there would be things about, I'll think things.

1888
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:48,760
I actually would like to change.

1889
01:28:48,760 --> 01:28:49,760
I will.

1890
01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:50,760
I will.

1891
01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:51,760
It's going to be my next experiment now.

1892
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:52,760
But no, you can.

1893
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:53,760
I'm going to buy code PR's.

1894
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:56,760
I'm going to make everyone's lifestyle, man.

1895
01:28:56,760 --> 01:29:01,760
But the thing is that if the PR's don't get accepted, it really does not even matter at all.

1896
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:02,760
Yeah, I can.

1897
01:29:02,760 --> 01:29:03,760
I can just change it.

1898
01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:04,760
You can just change it for yourself.

1899
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:07,760
And every single person can change the code for themselves.

1900
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:08,760
Yeah.

1901
01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:10,760
So you could, you could grab, I'm a fool.

1902
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:14,760
I mean, but, but again, like there is, that's, that's like a spectrum of extremes.

1903
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:17,760
It's like everyone uses the same app or everyone has their own app.

1904
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:24,760
And I think we'll find a sweet spot in the middle where, where it's, because it is, because actually changing time is still scarce.

1905
01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:25,760
You know?

1906
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:28,760
And like also prompting takes time and so on and all those kinds of things.

1907
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:32,760
And it is way more efficient if we use the same thing and if we distribute it to more people and so on.

1908
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:33,760
You know what I'm trying to say?

1909
01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:40,760
It's also, it's also, it's way more efficient to have a shared language than it has, like every person has their own language.

1910
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:42,760
Oh, no, no, I agree.

1911
01:29:42,760 --> 01:29:44,760
I completely agree.

1912
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:49,760
And I also fully agree with the fact that if we...

1913
01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:51,760
By the way, should we grab a coffee soon?

1914
01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:55,760
My food really hurts and I'm also, you know, the same old, same old.

1915
01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:57,760
I'm sure we blasted past 90 minutes.

1916
01:29:57,760 --> 01:29:59,760
I still have the wind ringing in my ears.

1917
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:02,760
My food is hurting. I'm dehydrated.

1918
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:05,760
I really need to pee. It's all, all at the same time.

1919
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:08,760
Very much embodied conversation, so.

1920
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:16,760
But yeah, no, I hope that we'll find a sweet spot in some sense where it's just easier to...

1921
01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:17,760
I hope...

1922
01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:19,760
Yeah, I don't know.

1923
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:28,760
The one thing I talked with Paul about that I hope it will bring, it should be easier to...

1924
01:30:28,760 --> 01:30:30,760
I hope that it will also hypercharge human expression.

1925
01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:40,760
And I hope that Noster will also allow people to express themselves freely in all kinds of forms.

1926
01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:47,760
Because I think globally and especially in the last couple of years, we had a massive chilling effect on all the online platforms.

1927
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:49,760
I still have it, like on YouTube, for example.

1928
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:51,760
There's creators that really...

1929
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:57,760
Their whole game is to skate the line of demonetization and deplatforming.

1930
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:00,760
Because that's the most interesting edgy content.

1931
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:03,760
It doesn't matter if it's political or sexual or whatever.

1932
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:06,760
Like on Twitch, you have streamers that are insanely sexual.

1933
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:13,760
It's like Twitch, it's almost like, you know, like a campgirl site, like some sections of Twitch and so on.

1934
01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:19,760
What can you do live on stream, but you still won't get the platform and those kind of things.

1935
01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:21,760
And I think...

1936
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:33,760
In the political arena, for example, most of the political discourse happened online in the last 10 years period.

1937
01:31:33,760 --> 01:31:35,760
Most of it happened on Twitter.

1938
01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:40,760
Just by happenstance, the subset of people that used Twitter that were part of the political discourse,

1939
01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:45,760
like journalists and politicians and so on, they all were on Twitter.

1940
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:50,760
And I think there was a massive...

1941
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:55,760
And I think there still is a chilling effect, in some sense.

1942
01:31:55,760 --> 01:31:59,760
Even with the change in power, you know, you don't...

1943
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:04,760
If you want to openly shit on Trump or Elon,

1944
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:06,760
x.com is not the tool, I think.

1945
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:09,760
People won't go there to do that.

1946
01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:14,760
And the other thing I...

1947
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:19,760
Yeah, I don't know. My brain is pretty fried, as you can tell.

1948
01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:26,760
But I think the current structure of the online platforms and of farming...

1949
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:30,760
Your attention, farming your eyeballs and your brain cycles

1950
01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:34,760
also led to the divisiveness, because the algorithms always rank engagement highest.

1951
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:36,760
And that's how we...

1952
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:40,760
Oh, there's a lot of engagement around it. That's why it's interesting.

1953
01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:44,760
That's why I did... You wouldn't set up a car crash talk, because it's like...

1954
01:32:44,760 --> 01:32:49,760
A car crash produces a lot of engagement, but it doesn't mean that it's a good thing,

1955
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:52,760
or it doesn't mean that you actually want to look at it.

1956
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:54,760
But it's...

1957
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:56,760
Yeah, I don't know.

1958
01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:00,760
I think the current environment is just parasitical on humanity,

1959
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:04,760
and I hope that we can get out of that destructive loop in some sense.

1960
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:07,760
And I think Nostra has to play a role, and I think Bitcoin has to play a role.

1961
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:08,760
Oh, 100%.

1962
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:11,760
That's just my thesis, and I think...

1963
01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:12,760
Speech and money, right?

1964
01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:14,760
Yeah, and speech and money.

1965
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:17,760
Yeah, let's spend some money. We did the speech part.

1966
01:33:17,760 --> 01:33:25,760
But that's the point of these dialogues to explore all that and kind of try to wrap our heads around

1967
01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:29,760
what is currently happening, and it has been happening for the last couple of years.

1968
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:33,760
I mean, especially with our point of view with civil engineering,

1969
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:40,760
I think we are kind of seeing the ground being laid of some reality.

1970
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,760
Yeah.

1971
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:44,760
So, yeah, it's just processing these...

1972
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:46,760
What would people still don't know what saps are?

1973
01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:47,760
Yeah.

1974
01:33:47,760 --> 01:33:53,760
And we've been embedded in the sap world for a long time,

1975
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:57,760
and just by that, by being immersed in that,

1976
01:33:57,760 --> 01:34:03,760
I think we figured out some of the things of how could this stuff be useful for a wider audience and so on.

1977
01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:09,760
And that's why I was very eager to open up these conversations that were already happening,

1978
01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:13,760
and just, again, just hit record and fucking send it.

1979
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:19,760
And with that being said, I probably just, again, recorded only like whatever was happening in my pocket.

1980
01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:27,760
And I have to go back to the device recording and fix all of it, like in manual labor.

1981
01:34:27,760 --> 01:34:30,760
But I'm building an LLM pipeline now for all the things.

1982
01:34:30,760 --> 01:34:36,760
It's going to be, I hope, by last demo day, that's what I want to show off, actually, spoiler alert.

1983
01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:38,760
It's going to be fully automated, everything.

1984
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:40,760
It's just like hit record.

1985
01:34:40,760 --> 01:34:42,760
We won't even have to speak.

1986
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:46,760
No, that's the one thing I don't want to abstract away.

1987
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:48,760
That's the one thing I don't want to abstract away.

1988
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:50,760
And that's the thing.

1989
01:34:50,760 --> 01:34:51,760
What should you automate?

1990
01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:52,760
What can you automate?

1991
01:34:52,760 --> 01:34:53,760
What should the machine do?

1992
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:54,760
And what should the human?

1993
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:56,760
And we've spoken about this many times in the past.

1994
01:34:56,760 --> 01:35:02,760
If you abstract key management away, if you remove the private key from the humans, then that's really bad.

1995
01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:03,760
You should never do that.

1996
01:35:03,760 --> 01:35:06,760
That's then you're rebuilding Coinbase and the banks and all this kind of stuff.

1997
01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:13,760
And I think also, you should not remove the human spirit just by making use of LLMs.

1998
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:18,760
The impulse, and I think Paul has the right thinking about this.

1999
01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:21,760
It's like the teleology of the whole thing.

2000
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:30,760
It has to come, in his words, I think I don't want to put words in his mouth, but from the Christian perspective, it has to come from God, basically.

2001
01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:41,760
I'm not sure what I would identify as, but I would say it's like the human impulse that the human spirit should remain in charge.

2002
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:46,760
And what's so interesting right now is like, I'm not even sure if that's true right now.

2003
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:49,760
To me, because the contents are in charge.

2004
01:35:49,760 --> 01:35:50,760
Absolutely.

2005
01:35:50,760 --> 01:35:52,760
Or the money printer is in charge.

2006
01:35:52,760 --> 01:36:01,760
You know, like pick your kind of poison, but it's, again, why didn't Google had to remove?

2007
01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:02,760
Don't be evil.

2008
01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:03,760
Why?

2009
01:36:03,760 --> 01:36:04,760
Who was in charge of this?

2010
01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:08,760
But what I'm trying to say is Google itself.

2011
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:10,760
Google had to.

2012
01:36:10,760 --> 01:36:12,760
Google, the entity had to remove it.

2013
01:36:12,760 --> 01:36:14,760
It wasn't Serjay or whatever, I think.

2014
01:36:14,760 --> 01:36:15,760
You know what I mean?

2015
01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:16,760
Yes.

2016
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:17,760
And that is the point.

2017
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:20,760
When you say in charge, you don't mean an authority.

2018
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:22,760
You mean some kind of entity.

2019
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:24,760
I made the same joke the last time.

2020
01:36:24,760 --> 01:36:25,760
It's like, in my household, who is in charge?

2021
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:26,760
It's the fucking cats.

2022
01:36:26,760 --> 01:36:32,760
Because if the cats need to be fed or want to get out, it's like, I have to get up my ass and so on.

2023
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:34,760
Or like, if you have a baby, who is in charge?

2024
01:36:34,760 --> 01:36:35,760
The baby is in charge.

2025
01:36:35,760 --> 01:36:36,760
You know what I mean?

2026
01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:39,760
And that's why we are in a symbiotic relationship.

2027
01:36:39,760 --> 01:36:41,760
It's a symbiotic relationship with technology.

2028
01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:48,760
And I think right now, technology is parasitic on humanity, especially in the attention economy, especially with the online platforms and this kind of stuff.

2029
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:49,760
Same with money.

2030
01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:54,760
Money is a psycho technology that enables distributed cognition and coordination on a massive scale.

2031
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:57,760
We have to use money to function as a society.

2032
01:36:57,760 --> 01:37:02,760
Otherwise, it's just like Dunbar's number, 150 people or less clans that fight each other all the time.

2033
01:37:02,760 --> 01:37:05,760
It's like money brings in money, as you're saying, peace, period.

2034
01:37:05,760 --> 01:37:07,760
And I mean, all the Bitcoin is not it.

2035
01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:09,760
Our money is so insanely broken.

2036
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:11,760
We are in a relationship with money.

2037
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:15,760
I wouldn't even call it a symbiotic relationship.

2038
01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:17,760
It's a completely parasitic relationship.

2039
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:19,760
Like, fiat money.

2040
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:23,760
The relationship that humanity has with money right now is a relationship with fiat money.

2041
01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:25,760
And it breaks so many things.

2042
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:26,760
It's like insane.

2043
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:30,760
And I think with technology, especially network technology, it's very similar.

2044
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:31,760
It's very, very similar.

2045
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:35,760
But it's like all the platforms and all the things and everything that we discuss here all the time.

2046
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:37,760
Also, app stores and all this kind of stuff.

2047
01:37:37,760 --> 01:37:41,760
It's kind of maximizing for the wrong thing.

2048
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:48,760
And I'm not even sure if we want to maximize for anything except for meaning or human experience.

2049
01:37:48,760 --> 01:37:49,760
Yeah.

2050
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:50,760
I don't maximize the margins.

2051
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:51,760
Maximize.

2052
01:37:51,760 --> 01:37:52,760
Jishi.

2053
01:37:52,760 --> 01:37:53,760
Exactly.

2054
01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:55,760
I can't tell you what you should maximize.

2055
01:37:55,760 --> 01:37:56,760
Exactly.

2056
01:37:56,760 --> 01:37:57,760
Exactly.

2057
01:37:57,760 --> 01:37:59,760
But I think one last point.

2058
01:37:59,760 --> 01:38:00,760
Sorry.

2059
01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:01,760
But I think...

2060
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:02,760
I'm fainting.

2061
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:03,760
No, no.

2062
01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:04,760
It's good.

2063
01:38:04,760 --> 01:38:07,760
I think Noster is such a perfect canvas for this.

2064
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:08,760
Yeah.

2065
01:38:08,760 --> 01:38:14,760
Because the fact is that within a spectrum of a platform, you can experiment, but you're

2066
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:16,760
constrained but what you cannot change.

2067
01:38:16,760 --> 01:38:19,760
And the distribution of the data, you cannot change.

2068
01:38:19,760 --> 01:38:23,760
You were still asking API.Twitter for the data.

2069
01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:26,760
Whereas in Noster, you are gathering the data.

2070
01:38:26,760 --> 01:38:29,760
And asking for the data, you are going and getting the data.

2071
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:30,760
And it's very different.

2072
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:31,760
Yeah.

2073
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:35,760
Because you can do so many different things that you cannot do if you cannot just change

2074
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:36,760
the API.

2075
01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:38,760
It's the switch between active and passive.

2076
01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:41,760
And it's the switch of being your own man or being a surf.

2077
01:38:41,760 --> 01:38:42,760
Yes.

2078
01:38:42,760 --> 01:38:43,760
That's the difference.

2079
01:38:43,760 --> 01:38:44,760
Shall we get a coffee?

2080
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:45,760
Let's do it.

2081
01:38:45,760 --> 01:38:46,760
Gimme a hug.

2082
01:38:46,760 --> 01:38:47,760
We survived.

2083
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:48,760
We survived the wind.

2084
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:50,760
We survived the bus stop.

2085
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:53,760
Let me switch it off right now.

2086
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:54,760
Man, I'm done.

2087
01:38:54,760 --> 01:38:55,760
All right.

2088
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:56,760
Okay.

2089
01:38:56,760 --> 01:38:57,760
Press here.

2090
01:38:57,760 --> 01:38:58,760
Press here.

2091
01:38:58,760 --> 01:38:59,760
All right.

2092
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:01,760
That was a very weird feeling.

2093
01:39:01,760 --> 01:39:02,760
Yeah.

2094
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:06,760
I didn't even press record here, so that's good.

2095
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:07,760
I guess.

2096
01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:08,760
Fantastic.

2097
01:39:08,760 --> 01:39:11,760
We'll manage one day.