1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,700
 It's on. Okay. It's all on. Everything is on. We'll see. We'll find out when you publish it.

2
00:00:08,700 --> 00:00:13,740
 Should we walk up the nice thing there, do one ring, like go really fancy?

3
00:00:13,740 --> 00:00:19,200
 Yeah, let's do that. And then we'll just, wherever the kind of sound landscape takes us.

4
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,160
 Because you'll have to understand one thing, once you snap the mics on,

5
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,960
 sound will just magically appear and things will just get noisy. People with

6
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:36,960
 leaf blowers will start hunting you. It's probably like a bias. It's always noisy.

7
00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,720
 Yeah. I mean, you focus, you don't, you usually don't focus on these things.

8
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:45,480
 John Vervanke would say your whole salience landscape changes once you start

9
00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:50,520
 recording. That's what he would say. So suddenly you focus on, you know, everything

10
00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,580
 is noise. If you're in the sauna and it gets really hot, everything that, you know,

11
00:00:55,580 --> 00:00:59,720
 it's water might cold water might be appealing. Like if you're really thirsty,

12
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:04,580
 everything suddenly becomes a way to get water and so on. Anyway.

13
00:01:04,580 --> 00:01:12,580
 Jeez, how have you been? Very good. All right. And there's the noise. See, I told you, I told you.

14
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 Suddenly there's motorbikes, everything. It's been a while. It's been a very long time. I think the last time we talked really was in Madeira.

15
00:01:21,580 --> 00:01:27,580
 Yeah. Yeah. Actually, that's the last time I saw you. Yeah. Yeah. You were one of the early ones. One of our guinea pigs.

16
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 Yeah. Basically. Yeah. When we didn't really know what we were doing. Yeah. But not that we like improved a lot, but you know, it's a little bit better.

17
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 What's different now? We try to keep the things that work. We added some new things.

18
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 There's a little bit more structure, a little bit more kind of rules. Vibe coding changed a lot of things. Now that we have vibe coding, one of the new rules is you have to demo something new every week.

19
00:01:59,580 --> 00:02:14,580
 So it has to be a new idea. You can still show whatever, like other stuff, but at least one new thing you have to show every week. So there's a bunch of live coding change. A lot of things.

20
00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:25,580
 Yeah. No, no slides. That's an important one. That's a good rule. Demo day is only demos. We say this over and over and over again. And if you show one single slide during a demo day, you'll just be shot.

21
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 We have like an AK 47 handy and you'll just be executed on the spot. No, we're very serious about it. It's like, you'll be, you'll be booed out of the building. It's like, there's no, it just doesn't fly. Now you can come up with like a working demo should take you like 10 seconds to build basically.

22
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 Yeah. That makes a lot of sense with, with, uh, with the speed that you can build now. Yeah. Um, and also there, it doesn't matter if you build slop.

23
00:02:53,580 --> 00:03:02,580
 No, it's the whole point is it's a proof of concept demo. Does this make sense? Is the idea good? And so on. And speaking of, does this make sense?

24
00:03:02,580 --> 00:03:09,580
 That's what I want to talk to you about businesses without state involvement. Does it make sense?

25
00:03:09,580 --> 00:03:24,580
 You've been in the business of building Nostra Rocket? Yes. For a long time. Yeah. And you told me you're still thinking about it, still excited about it and still working on it and want to get back into it.

26
00:03:24,580 --> 00:03:36,580
 So why don't you get me up to speed and kind of sketch out where you are, maybe how you're thinking has evolved. What works now? What do you still want to build out? I'll shut up. You just go.

27
00:03:36,580 --> 00:03:52,580
 So, well, the core problem is that we don't have Bitcoin. If you look at it like a nation state, it doesn't have any exports. We're a hundred percent dependent on imports for all of our products and services.

28
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 With very few exceptions. If you're into soap and leather. There are edge cases. There are edge cases. But generally speaking, a leather mint wallet and a bar of soap.

29
00:04:04,580 --> 00:04:31,580
 Yeah. There are edge cases. No matter. No matter. You could, you could probably like make a trade like bottle caps for these things as well. Right. Yeah. There are edge cases. But, um, what about merchant adoption, uh, in places like Madeira or Bitcoin jungle? Would you count that or no? Are they keeping the Bitcoin or are they just most of them are because it's less than 1%. That's good.

30
00:04:31,580 --> 00:04:46,580
 Up there. Um, I mean, it's a start, but, but that's not really the, like, what's the source of economic power or, or, um,

31
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 You mean globally speaking?

32
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 Abstractly speaking. So right now printing money.

33
00:04:54,580 --> 00:04:59,580
 Okay. That's the wrong way. That's the, that's the, that's the, that's, that wasn't the answer I was looking for.

34
00:04:59,580 --> 00:05:00,580
 Okay. Okay.

35
00:05:00,580 --> 00:05:03,580
 I'm trying to kind of give your, give your, give your own answer.

36
00:05:03,580 --> 00:05:09,580
 Uh, ultimately, I think it's ultimately comes down to energy. That's the source of everything, right?

37
00:05:09,580 --> 00:05:10,580
 Oh, Michael Saylor would love that.

38
00:05:10,580 --> 00:05:13,580
 Well, are you saying that Bitcoin is digital energy?

39
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 Now we're cooking.

40
00:05:14,580 --> 00:05:15,580
 I'm not saying Bitcoin is digital energy.

41
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 Now all of Bitcoin Twitter is suddenly listening.

42
00:05:17,580 --> 00:05:19,580
 And it's, and it's definitely not. Yeah.

43
00:05:19,580 --> 00:05:22,580
 No, now we need to talk about price if we want all of them to listen.

44
00:05:22,580 --> 00:05:23,580
 Yeah. Yeah.

45
00:05:23,580 --> 00:05:24,580
 Are you reinventing scratch?

46
00:05:24,580 --> 00:05:28,580
 Are we going to get 12% instead of 11?

47
00:05:28,580 --> 00:05:30,580
 Sorry, I'm derailing you completely.

48
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 So energy is important.

49
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 Cause then energy is what enables everything else to happen.

50
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 Right.

51
00:05:35,580 --> 00:05:36,580
 Yeah.

52
00:05:36,580 --> 00:05:37,580
 Yeah.

53
00:05:37,580 --> 00:05:43,580
 And, um, but I mean, we don't have to go, it's probably see if the, the, the ideal situation

54
00:05:43,580 --> 00:05:53,580
 would be, uh, we just collaboratively build, um, highly efficient energy production infrastructure.

55
00:05:53,580 --> 00:05:55,580
 But how come you're already on energy?

56
00:05:55,580 --> 00:06:02,580
 If I understand you correctly, what do you want to have is a proper, um, a proper parallel

57
00:06:02,580 --> 00:06:03,580
 economy.

58
00:06:03,580 --> 00:06:04,580
 Yes.

59
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 A proper Bitcoin only parallel in the best case circular economy.

60
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 Yeah.

61
00:06:08,580 --> 00:06:11,580
 But the first step to doing that is understanding what the economy is.

62
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 Okay.

63
00:06:12,580 --> 00:06:18,580
 And I think that it's the source of the economy is energy.

64
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 Cause everything depends on energy.

65
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 Is that the, the, the, uh, close to the theory of labor fallacy?

66
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 Possibly.

67
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 You can, you can waste a lot of energy building a mud pie, right?

68
00:06:31,580 --> 00:06:32,580
 Yeah.

69
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 Kind of thing.

70
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 Yeah.

71
00:06:34,580 --> 00:06:35,580
 Yeah.

72
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 But you also need energy to do it.

73
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 But okay.

74
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 Let's, let's, let's, let's get into it.

75
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 All right.

76
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 Economy.

77
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 What do you have inputs and outputs, right?

78
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 Some transformation in the middle, the transformation.

79
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 I think one of the, I would agree that one of the knobs you can turn in the transformation

80
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 is energy.

81
00:06:50,580 --> 00:06:51,580
 Yeah.

82
00:06:51,580 --> 00:06:52,580
 It's also ingenuity and other things.

83
00:06:52,580 --> 00:07:02,580
 Um, but in the end, I mean, uh, like Saifedeen would probably object to your, your, the thesis

84
00:07:02,580 --> 00:07:09,580
 you laid out that the, it, it doesn't matter how you come to the product.

85
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 The, the only measurement that is interesting is if people want to buy it.

86
00:07:13,580 --> 00:07:14,580
 It doesn't matter how much energy you.

87
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 No, no, no.

88
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 I totally agree with that.

89
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 I'm just saying, I'm saying the.

90
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 It's actually go up.

91
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 That's what I wanted to do.

92
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 Oh yeah.

93
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 That's why we're here.

94
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 We're already, we are like, not only derailed, we also walked the wrong way.

95
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 So we're off to a fantastic start.

96
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 I'm not saying.

97
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 Derailed the conversation and the path.

98
00:07:27,580 --> 00:07:28,580
 Yeah.

99
00:07:28,580 --> 00:07:32,580
 I'm not saying energy is, I still don't, I still don't understand it.

100
00:07:32,580 --> 00:07:38,580
 So the reason I mentioned energy is simply because that's one of it's required, but not sufficient.

101
00:07:38,580 --> 00:07:39,580
 Right.

102
00:07:39,580 --> 00:07:40,580
 Okay.

103
00:07:40,580 --> 00:07:42,580
 To, for, to produce goods and services.

104
00:07:42,580 --> 00:07:43,580
 Yeah.

105
00:07:43,580 --> 00:07:50,580
 So, but that doesn't mean we should necessarily produce energy and sell it for Bitcoin.

106
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 Although that would probably be a cool idea.

107
00:07:52,580 --> 00:07:58,580
 Um, and pretty powerful, but we do need to produce goods and services, uh, as Bitcoiners.

108
00:07:58,580 --> 00:08:09,580
 I mean, in the Bitcoin economy, you could argue that, um, the most Bitcoiners are selling hash power to the Bitcoin network.

109
00:08:09,580 --> 00:08:10,580
 No?

110
00:08:10,580 --> 00:08:11,580
 Yeah.

111
00:08:11,580 --> 00:08:12,580
 That's okay.

112
00:08:12,580 --> 00:08:14,580
 I mean, you're getting a stroke right now.

113
00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:22,580
 Is it because all the big miners are public companies and just mining for fiat?

114
00:08:22,580 --> 00:08:37,580
 That's still, that's still, anytime you want to actually use the Bitcoin that they've mined to buy something from the economy though, you're creating demand for fiat because everything else is produced in the fiat system, in a fiat economy.

115
00:08:37,580 --> 00:08:38,580
 Okay.

116
00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:39,580
 And they want that trade to be settled in fiat.

117
00:08:39,580 --> 00:08:40,580
 Okay.

118
00:08:40,580 --> 00:08:41,580
 Yeah.

119
00:08:41,580 --> 00:08:46,580
 So if a shop, if a shop accepts big, accepts Bitcoin as payment, it's fine.

120
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 It's cool.

121
00:08:47,580 --> 00:08:52,580
 But the actual trade down the line is settled in fiat still.

122
00:08:52,580 --> 00:08:53,580
 Yeah.

123
00:08:53,580 --> 00:08:54,580
 At some point.

124
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 Even if the shop keeps the Bitcoin.

125
00:08:55,580 --> 00:08:56,580
 It's just to play devil's advocate.

126
00:08:56,580 --> 00:09:06,580
 The, the, the, what you're talking about, what do you want to see is more of the things I mentioned before, like soap miner, like leather mint, like I can't ever pronounce it as a bellow art.

127
00:09:06,580 --> 00:09:07,580
 Yeah.

128
00:09:07,580 --> 00:09:08,580
 Yeah.

129
00:09:08,580 --> 00:09:14,580
 Where, um, it's the nominated and stats only accept Bitcoin and the people make these things to earn Bitcoin.

130
00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:15,580
 Yeah.

131
00:09:15,580 --> 00:09:16,580
 For no other reason.

132
00:09:16,580 --> 00:09:17,580
 Yeah.

133
00:09:17,580 --> 00:09:18,580
 Yeah.

134
00:09:18,580 --> 00:09:19,580
 They only accept Bitcoin and they hold the Bitcoin.

135
00:09:19,580 --> 00:09:22,580
 And so you want to, you want to make more of those people.

136
00:09:22,580 --> 00:09:23,580
 Yeah.

137
00:09:23,580 --> 00:09:24,580
 Okay.

138
00:09:24,580 --> 00:09:29,580
 And a Bitcoin standard means that you can't buy anything without Bitcoin.

139
00:09:29,580 --> 00:09:30,580
 Yeah.

140
00:09:30,580 --> 00:09:31,580
 Fair enough.

141
00:09:31,580 --> 00:09:33,580
 Just like you go to the, yes, you can't buy anything without dollars.

142
00:09:33,580 --> 00:09:34,580
 Yeah.

143
00:09:34,580 --> 00:09:35,580
 Yeah.

144
00:09:35,580 --> 00:09:42,580
 Um, so like, because, because we need to buy things from the fiat economy, uh, and it creates a demand for fiat.

145
00:09:42,580 --> 00:09:47,580
 Every time we buy something, if we're playing in Bitcoin, um, that's like, that's an off ramp, right?

146
00:09:47,580 --> 00:09:50,580
 You have to off ramp from Bitcoin into fiat.

147
00:09:50,580 --> 00:09:51,580
 Yeah, sure.

148
00:09:51,580 --> 00:09:57,580
 It's a, it's a complicated chicken and egg thing because not all, not all resellers, not all resellers.

149
00:09:57,580 --> 00:09:58,580
 That's not the right.

150
00:09:58,580 --> 00:09:59,580
 Right.

151
00:09:59,580 --> 00:10:03,580
 Um, the merchants you work with don't accept Bitcoin.

152
00:10:03,580 --> 00:10:09,580
 Even if you yourself, even if they, even if they accept it, someone, their suppliers don't.

153
00:10:09,580 --> 00:10:10,580
 Yeah.

154
00:10:10,580 --> 00:10:11,580
 Suppliers.

155
00:10:11,580 --> 00:10:12,580
 That's the word I was looking for.

156
00:10:12,580 --> 00:10:13,580
 Uh, let's see what's over here.

157
00:10:13,580 --> 00:10:24,580
 Um, and what that means is we are dependent on these imports from the fiat economy and we

158
00:10:24,580 --> 00:10:27,580
 are dependent on off ramps, which they can shut down.

159
00:10:27,580 --> 00:10:28,580
 All right.

160
00:10:28,580 --> 00:10:34,580
 So let, let, allow me to make an analogy in terms of new world, old world, you're colonizing

161
00:10:34,580 --> 00:10:37,580
 the new world and you're still dependent on ships from great Britain.

162
00:10:37,580 --> 00:10:38,580
 Yeah.

163
00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:39,580
 That's what you're trying to say.

164
00:10:39,580 --> 00:10:40,580
 Yeah.

165
00:10:40,580 --> 00:10:41,580
 Right.

166
00:10:41,580 --> 00:10:42,580
 In some sense.

167
00:10:42,580 --> 00:10:43,580
 Yeah.

168
00:10:43,580 --> 00:10:44,580
 And you don't, you want to remove the dependence in some way.

169
00:10:44,580 --> 00:10:49,580
 So what, what, like, we will have to eventually get into Nostrojet and what it is and what,

170
00:10:49,580 --> 00:10:54,580
 why do we need businesses outside of the current structures to make all that work?

171
00:10:54,580 --> 00:10:56,580
 Like close that loop for me.

172
00:10:56,580 --> 00:10:59,580
 Uh, I think I understand the energy piece now.

173
00:10:59,580 --> 00:11:00,580
 Okay.

174
00:11:00,580 --> 00:11:11,580
 So, well, the, the simple explanation is that, uh, when you operate as a business registered

175
00:11:11,580 --> 00:11:16,580
 with the state, they regulate you and that eliminates you from the Bitcoin economy.

176
00:11:16,580 --> 00:11:18,580
 It's regulation always bad.

177
00:11:18,580 --> 00:11:22,580
 Not necessarily, but the, it doesn't matter.

178
00:11:22,580 --> 00:11:25,580
 They, they, they hold all of the cards.

179
00:11:25,580 --> 00:11:28,580
 So if they say you can't use Bitcoin, you can't use Bitcoin.

180
00:11:28,580 --> 00:11:31,580
 If they say you can't spend Bitcoin in certain ways, then you can't spend Bitcoin in certain

181
00:11:31,580 --> 00:11:32,580
 ways.

182
00:11:32,580 --> 00:11:33,580
 Oh, okay.

183
00:11:33,580 --> 00:11:36,580
 So that's a US centric argument in the capital gains sense and all those kinds of things.

184
00:11:36,580 --> 00:11:37,580
 Oh, no, no, not only that.

185
00:11:37,580 --> 00:11:40,580
 Just, I just mean you're regulated by the state, which means actually you're a branch of the

186
00:11:40,580 --> 00:11:41,580
 state.

187
00:11:41,580 --> 00:11:49,580
 So you, because you agree to play by the rules and operate under these rules.

188
00:11:49,580 --> 00:11:50,580
 Yeah.

189
00:11:50,580 --> 00:11:52,580
 And then those rules are determined by the state.

190
00:11:52,580 --> 00:11:56,580
 So, so the only way to be independent is to become a pirate and go hit the open seas.

191
00:11:56,580 --> 00:11:57,580
 Yeah.

192
00:11:57,580 --> 00:11:58,580
 Okay.

193
00:11:58,580 --> 00:11:59,580
 Yeah.

194
00:11:59,580 --> 00:12:03,580
 I just want to bring a little bit of, you know, sovereign engineering, sovereign engineering

195
00:12:03,580 --> 00:12:06,580
 theming into it.

196
00:12:06,580 --> 00:12:12,580
 We talk about, you know, the wide open sea that's built out by cryptography, basically.

197
00:12:12,580 --> 00:12:13,580
 That is to be explored.

198
00:12:13,580 --> 00:12:14,580
 Yeah.

199
00:12:14,580 --> 00:12:15,580
 Let's do that.

200
00:12:15,580 --> 00:12:24,580
 So the other, to continue your analogy of the new world being dependent on ships from Britain.

201
00:12:24,580 --> 00:12:28,580
 We want to flip it the other way around, right?

202
00:12:28,580 --> 00:12:30,580
 That world should be dependent on us.

203
00:12:30,580 --> 00:12:31,580
 Yeah.

204
00:12:31,580 --> 00:12:35,580
 The US managed it after a while and then they flipped to China.

205
00:12:35,580 --> 00:12:36,580
 Yeah.

206
00:12:36,580 --> 00:12:40,580
 So, which is just another fiat system.

207
00:12:40,580 --> 00:12:45,580
 So how does NosRocket play into that picture?

208
00:12:45,580 --> 00:12:51,580
 What's your grand vision of, of minting more leather mints and minting more soap miners

209
00:12:51,580 --> 00:12:53,580
 and all those types of people?

210
00:12:53,580 --> 00:12:59,580
 How, what, what, what would, how would make NosRocket their life easier for those business

211
00:12:59,580 --> 00:13:00,580
 owners that only want to accept Bitcoin?

212
00:13:00,580 --> 00:13:03,580
 I think those business owners, cause they're all individuals, right?

213
00:13:03,580 --> 00:13:05,580
 So NosRocket won't help them.

214
00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:06,580
 Okay.

215
00:13:06,580 --> 00:13:09,580
 Um, maybe explain what it is.

216
00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:22,580
 Uh, NosRocket in the current iteration, uh, so Bitcoin is proof of work, which is directly

217
00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:25,580
 using energy, forcing it through SHA-256.

218
00:13:25,580 --> 00:13:26,580
 Um, yeah.

219
00:13:26,580 --> 00:13:27,580
 Difficulty adjusted proof of work.

220
00:13:27,580 --> 00:13:28,580
 Yeah.

221
00:13:28,580 --> 00:13:29,580
 Important.

222
00:13:29,580 --> 00:13:30,580
 Yeah.

223
00:13:30,580 --> 00:13:36,580
 But the, but it's, but the energy is forced through a process that channels it into solving

224
00:13:36,580 --> 00:13:37,580
 SHA-256.

225
00:13:37,580 --> 00:13:38,580
 Yeah.

226
00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:48,580
 And everything outside of that is not part of the, is not, um, is not part of the, there's

227
00:13:48,580 --> 00:13:57,580
 like heat and stuff that comes off as well as a byproduct, but that's not what we're doing.

228
00:13:57,580 --> 00:13:59,580
 We're, we're doing SHA-256, right?

229
00:13:59,580 --> 00:14:01,580
 That's the end, end product.

230
00:14:01,580 --> 00:14:02,580
 Um, so.

231
00:14:02,580 --> 00:14:07,580
 You want to increase the range of products if I hear you correctly.

232
00:14:07,580 --> 00:14:08,580
 Yes.

233
00:14:08,580 --> 00:14:09,580
 Well, I know, but okay.

234
00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:14,580
 So I want to funnel, so it, it, it fun, that funnels energy into SHA-256.

235
00:14:14,580 --> 00:14:22,580
 I want to funnel energy, human energy into, into something that directs towards producing

236
00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:23,580
 something that other people want.

237
00:14:23,580 --> 00:14:24,580
 Okay.

238
00:14:24,580 --> 00:14:26,580
 Into the Bitcoin only economy, basically.

239
00:14:26,580 --> 00:14:27,580
 Yeah.

240
00:14:27,580 --> 00:14:28,580
 Yeah.

241
00:14:28,580 --> 00:14:29,580
 All right.

242
00:14:29,580 --> 00:14:30,580
 Okay.

243
00:14:30,580 --> 00:14:36,580
 Um, and so the, the simplest way I can think of to do that is, um, everyone who contributes

244
00:14:36,580 --> 00:14:46,580
 to something that produces revenue, their contributions become equity in the, in the project.

245
00:14:46,580 --> 00:14:47,580
 Oh, I see.

246
00:14:47,580 --> 00:14:48,580
 Okay.

247
00:14:48,580 --> 00:14:51,580
 And all revenue goes directly to anyone who has equity, right?

248
00:14:51,580 --> 00:14:52,580
 Yeah.

249
00:14:52,580 --> 00:14:53,580
 There's no.

250
00:14:53,580 --> 00:14:54,580
 All right.

251
00:14:54,580 --> 00:14:55,580
 All right.

252
00:14:55,580 --> 00:14:56,580
 All right.

253
00:14:56,580 --> 00:15:03,580
 So now we're talking about kind of, um, how do you organize groups of people to get something

254
00:15:03,580 --> 00:15:10,580
 done and how do you compensate them accordingly and how do you build up these kinds of venture

255
00:15:10,580 --> 00:15:13,580
 business structures like the East Indian trade company?

256
00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:14,580
 Yeah.

257
00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:16,580
 To get stuff done.

258
00:15:16,580 --> 00:15:20,580
 I mean, yeah, there are many, many different layers of this because if you think through

259
00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:28,580
 it all, because like, for example, um, if you have upfront funding that then prevents

260
00:15:28,580 --> 00:15:32,580
 you from being decentralized because someone has to make a decision before the funding can

261
00:15:32,580 --> 00:15:33,580
 be used.

262
00:15:33,580 --> 00:15:38,580
 So the work can't come, can't come before a decision has been made.

263
00:15:38,580 --> 00:15:41,580
 Is being decentralized always good?

264
00:15:41,580 --> 00:15:47,580
 Um, the only way, the only way to not necessarily, but the, the only way to, um, to do things in

265
00:15:47,580 --> 00:15:50,580
 a way that the state can't shut down is for it to be decentralized.

266
00:15:50,580 --> 00:15:51,580
 Hmm.

267
00:15:51,580 --> 00:15:52,580
 Okay.

268
00:15:52,580 --> 00:15:53,580
 I see.

269
00:15:53,580 --> 00:15:54,580
 So that's, uh, so that's the, and maybe it's not possible.

270
00:15:54,580 --> 00:15:55,580
 I don't know.

271
00:15:55,580 --> 00:15:56,580
 How does the mafia do it?

272
00:15:56,580 --> 00:16:01,580
 Like every time I think about these things, the first two things that pop into my head is

273
00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:02,580
 like pirates.

274
00:16:02,580 --> 00:16:03,580
 Yeah.

275
00:16:03,580 --> 00:16:08,580
 And the mafia, the mafia, um, or whatever, the jacuzzi or whatever.

276
00:16:08,580 --> 00:16:10,580
 Like, you know, like I grew up close to Italy.

277
00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:12,580
 So like for me, it's the mafia for other people.

278
00:16:12,580 --> 00:16:14,580
 It's probably other, other things.

279
00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:18,580
 I mean, I think they just, they, they operate more like a military, right?

280
00:16:18,580 --> 00:16:19,580
 They are.

281
00:16:19,580 --> 00:16:20,580
 They are.

282
00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:23,580
 That's kind of my point because I think they, they operate outside of the state, right?

283
00:16:23,580 --> 00:16:24,580
 Yeah.

284
00:16:24,580 --> 00:16:25,580
 But they have hierarchies and there is centralization.

285
00:16:25,580 --> 00:16:28,580
 Like there is some, there is something like a mafia boss.

286
00:16:28,580 --> 00:16:31,580
 I mean, they, they always have a relationship with the state though.

287
00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:32,580
 Sure.

288
00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:33,580
 And it's sometimes pretty close.

289
00:16:33,580 --> 00:16:34,580
 Yeah.

290
00:16:34,580 --> 00:16:35,580
 Yeah.

291
00:16:35,580 --> 00:16:37,580
 Uh, I mean, I think they're just like a mini state within the state.

292
00:16:37,580 --> 00:16:38,580
 Okay.

293
00:16:38,580 --> 00:16:47,580
 Um, and also like, I mean, So would it be fair to say that Nostrocket is an experiment

294
00:16:47,580 --> 00:16:49,580
 in human collaboration and coordination?

295
00:16:49,580 --> 00:16:50,580
 Yeah.

296
00:16:50,580 --> 00:16:51,580
 Okay.

297
00:16:51,580 --> 00:16:56,580
 Um, I, I, I think like organizations, the way we organize right now is sort of like,

298
00:16:56,580 --> 00:17:01,580
 in a way it's kind of like how we used to do open source before GitHub.

299
00:17:01,580 --> 00:17:02,580
 Oh, okay.

300
00:17:02,580 --> 00:17:03,580
 Yeah.

301
00:17:03,580 --> 00:17:04,580
 Interesting.

302
00:17:04,580 --> 00:17:06,580
 Open source or Russian control before Git.

303
00:17:06,580 --> 00:17:07,580
 Yeah.

304
00:17:07,580 --> 00:17:08,580
 Yeah.

305
00:17:08,580 --> 00:17:09,580
 Yeah.

306
00:17:09,580 --> 00:17:10,580
 I like that analogy.

307
00:17:10,580 --> 00:17:11,580
 That immediately makes sense to me.

308
00:17:11,580 --> 00:17:12,580
 Yeah.

309
00:17:12,580 --> 00:17:13,580
 Yeah.

310
00:17:13,580 --> 00:17:14,580
 Okay.

311
00:17:14,580 --> 00:17:20,580
 Uh, and so like, I mean, I think we definitely need, I mean, there is a lot of scope to iterate

312
00:17:20,580 --> 00:17:21,580
 and how we coordinate.

313
00:17:21,580 --> 00:17:22,580
 Yeah.

314
00:17:22,580 --> 00:17:27,580
 Shout out to and get by the way, and all the projects that try to bring, you know, get up

315
00:17:27,580 --> 00:17:30,580
 to Nostar, get up on Nostar basically.

316
00:17:30,580 --> 00:17:31,580
 But yeah.

317
00:17:31,580 --> 00:17:32,580
 Okay.

318
00:17:32,580 --> 00:17:33,580
 Tell me more about it.

319
00:17:33,580 --> 00:17:35,580
 So what's the components that you have in mind when you want to build this out?

320
00:17:35,580 --> 00:17:41,580
 What do you need in terms of, uh, like the organization, the organizational structure

321
00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:43,580
 that you're describing?

322
00:17:43,580 --> 00:17:45,580
 What are the tools that you need?

323
00:17:45,580 --> 00:17:46,580
 What are the structures that you need?

324
00:17:46,580 --> 00:17:48,580
 What are the various rules?

325
00:17:48,580 --> 00:17:52,580
 Um, that people would have and, and so on.

326
00:17:52,580 --> 00:17:56,580
 And how does Bitcoin play in, into that picture?

327
00:17:56,580 --> 00:18:01,580
 Well, this wouldn't be possible without Bitcoin because you need money that can't be stopped

328
00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:04,580
 before you can build organizations that can't be stopped.

329
00:18:04,580 --> 00:18:10,580
 So just the payout structure alone and the, the, the, the vesting structure alone and things

330
00:18:10,580 --> 00:18:17,580
 like that, um, are very, very easy to be shut down by the state unless you're running on Bitcoin.

331
00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:18,580
 Yeah.

332
00:18:18,580 --> 00:18:19,580
 Okay.

333
00:18:19,580 --> 00:18:20,580
 Yeah.

334
00:18:20,580 --> 00:18:21,580
 It's not a permissionless payment system.

335
00:18:21,580 --> 00:18:22,580
 Yeah, absolutely.

336
00:18:22,580 --> 00:18:23,580
 Right.

337
00:18:23,580 --> 00:18:24,580
 Basically.

338
00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:25,580
 So.

339
00:18:25,580 --> 00:18:26,580
 And by the way, we see this now with stable coins, right?

340
00:18:26,580 --> 00:18:27,580
 Yeah.

341
00:18:27,580 --> 00:18:30,580
 With, with big, big stable coin hype and so on.

342
00:18:30,580 --> 00:18:31,580
 Last couple of years.

343
00:18:31,580 --> 00:18:35,580
 Um, to me, stable coins are kind of the worst of both worlds.

344
00:18:35,580 --> 00:18:41,580
 Um, you know, like they, they role play as, um, something that's similar to Bitcoin, but it's,

345
00:18:41,580 --> 00:18:48,900
 but it's, you know, controlled by a company, and the money is printed by the state, and it's not censorship resistant at all.

346
00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:52,440
 Like, it has all the worst properties that you can think of.

347
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:57,680
 And the entire thing is built on proof of stake, proof of stake chain, which is another layer of fuckery.

348
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,460
 Yeah, sure. It's like, take all the bad things, everything that Bitcoin should be against,

349
00:19:02,460 --> 00:19:12,940
 and then you throw them into, you know, you lock them into a room, and they create a bastard child, and that's the stablecoin.

350
00:19:12,940 --> 00:19:15,440
 And it doesn't matter which stablecoin, they're all the same.

351
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:21,300
 So, anyway, that was my stablecoin rant. I hate stablecoins, with a passion. It's complete insanity.

352
00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:27,440
 But, again, back to wrecked occasion. Like, I think people will need to get wrecked, and, like, it just depends.

353
00:19:28,620 --> 00:19:37,180
 Like, the censorship starts at the edges, of course, and then it's just, like, you know, like, freedom dies one salami slice at the time.

354
00:19:37,180 --> 00:19:42,440
 Exactly, yeah. I mean, it's just going to become the same as the banking system now, where you get shut down because you go to the wrong protest.

355
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:42,840
 Yeah.

356
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:58,600
 So, yeah, which kind of makes you think whether, like, if we had to choose between value flowing from business,

357
00:19:58,620 --> 00:20:05,800
 Bitcoin into stablecoins, or value flowing from Bitcoin into altcoins, which one is less destructive?

358
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:06,500
 Yeah.

359
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:18,200
 So, we have two options now, in terms of walking. I think we could walk this way. I think it won't be too noisy for too long.

360
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:24,020
 The other, more insane option would be to walk back up and just walk in circles. What do you prefer?

361
00:20:24,020 --> 00:20:24,920
 Circles.

362
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,380
 All right, circles. Let's circle.

363
00:20:26,380 --> 00:20:28,360
 There's lots to think about when you walk around in circles.

364
00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:30,900
 All right, great. Fantastic. I like not thinking.

365
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:39,600
 All right, but back to the stuff you have been thinking. You've been thinking about this for, like, 10 years, right?

366
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:40,440
 Yeah, yeah.

367
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:50,300
 So, tell me about the book that triggered that all. Like, that might be a good segue into the components and, kind of, what do you actually need to run something like a business?

368
00:20:54,380 --> 00:21:02,260
 There was a book called Reinventing Organizations by a guy called Frederic Leleux. He's French, but I guess we can overlook that.

369
00:21:02,260 --> 00:21:03,120
 Let's call him Fred.

370
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:03,800
 Yeah.

371
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:04,260
 Yeah.

372
00:21:04,260 --> 00:21:05,080
 Let's call him Fred.

373
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,440
 Fred. So, Fred wrote a book.

374
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:07,780
 Yeah.

375
00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:09,040
 What does he say?

376
00:21:09,740 --> 00:21:29,480
 He just, and it's been 15 years since I read this book, so memory's not going to be that accurate, but he's basically, he's basically looking at different organizational structures throughout history and categorizes them into different, different modes of operation.

377
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:35,880
 There's, like, the military operation, which is centrally planned, like, extremely centrally planned.

378
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:49,000
 So, very, very strict hierarchies, very strict chain of command, like, very, like, strict rules, strong hierarchical structure.

379
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:49,480
 Yeah.

380
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:49,800
 Yeah, okay.

381
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,880
 And then there are, like, mafia, which is, like, one level above that.

382
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,400
 Even more strict in some sense?

383
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:58,560
 No, it's less strict.

384
00:21:58,560 --> 00:21:59,200
 Less strict?

385
00:21:59,200 --> 00:21:59,680
 Than a military.

386
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,540
 Less, less centrally planned.

387
00:22:02,540 --> 00:22:03,260
 Okay.

388
00:22:03,260 --> 00:22:16,200
 And then there are, like, East India Company type things, where they're also centrally planned, but, like, not as much as a mafia.

389
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,440
 The control structure is not as, not as direct.

390
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:28,600
 And then there are, like, the modern sort of, like, startups, where things are a lot more, a lot more, um,

391
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:29,600
 More flat.

392
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:30,100
 More flat.

393
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:31,200
 Yeah, a lot more flat.

394
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:40,120
 And then there are these organizations called teal organizations, and I can't remember.

395
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,700
 I think Patagonia is sort of one of them.

396
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:47,340
 There's, like, a thing called holacracy or holacracy or something.

397
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,860
 All right, I've never heard that term.

398
00:22:48,860 --> 00:22:57,480
 There's, uh, anyways, like, so Patagonia, if I recall correctly, anyway, Patagonia is one of these types of companies where, like, the decisions are made at the edges.

399
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:07,960
 Um, you just need to convince, like, you need to convince, like, two other people in the organization to agree to a certain type classification of decision.

400
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:08,960
 Okay, interesting.

401
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:09,960
 Depending on the consequences of the decision.

402
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,960
 Um, uh, and that's kind of where he left off.

403
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:15,960
 Yeah.

404
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:21,460
 Like, that, that one where, basically, there is almost no central planning at all.

405
00:23:21,460 --> 00:23:22,460
 Yeah.

406
00:23:22,460 --> 00:23:23,460
 No central decision making.

407
00:23:23,460 --> 00:23:25,460
 Um, but it's still owned by shareholders.

408
00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:26,460
 Yeah.

409
00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:27,460
 Right.

410
00:23:27,460 --> 00:23:28,460
 It's still central.

411
00:23:28,460 --> 00:23:32,460
 The ownership is still central, but the execution is very distributed.

412
00:23:32,460 --> 00:23:33,460
 I see.

413
00:23:33,460 --> 00:23:34,460
 Um.

414
00:23:34,460 --> 00:23:37,460
 And it's not every employee is a shareholder and so on.

415
00:23:37,460 --> 00:23:38,460
 Yeah.

416
00:23:38,460 --> 00:23:40,460
 And it's also, like, it's still a corporate structure.

417
00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:45,460
 So it's still, you know, like, hey team, let's go, like, that sort of stuff, right?

418
00:23:45,460 --> 00:23:50,460
 So it's, like, a horrible place for someone like us to work.

419
00:23:50,460 --> 00:23:56,460
 What, what, what radicalized you in that way?

420
00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:59,460
 What was the horrible corporate structure you've been under?

421
00:23:59,460 --> 00:24:03,460
 I feel, I feel like you have a past that radicalized you.

422
00:24:03,460 --> 00:24:04,460
 I know.

423
00:24:04,460 --> 00:24:09,460
 I was always like, there was never any point where I was able to tolerate any kind of, any

424
00:24:09,460 --> 00:24:19,460
 kind of, um, group sort of, uh, I don't even know how to, I don't have the vocabulary.

425
00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:20,460
 Group activities.

426
00:24:20,460 --> 00:24:21,460
 Team building activities.

427
00:24:21,460 --> 00:24:23,460
 Like team, like any of that kind of thing.

428
00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:24,460
 Right.

429
00:24:24,460 --> 00:24:26,460
 It's like, I'm just like, what?

430
00:24:26,460 --> 00:24:32,460
 Like, oh, I don't just, it just goes directly against everything about me.

431
00:24:32,460 --> 00:24:34,460
 Like, to my bones.

432
00:24:34,460 --> 00:24:38,460
 So you want to be self-motivated, not motivated top down.

433
00:24:38,460 --> 00:24:39,460
 Yeah.

434
00:24:39,460 --> 00:24:40,460
 It just doesn't make any sense to me.

435
00:24:40,460 --> 00:24:46,460
 Like, like, it makes me feel a little bit sick when someone says, go team or something like that.

436
00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:47,460
 Right?

437
00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:49,460
 So I don't understand this.

438
00:24:49,460 --> 00:24:52,460
 Um, like I'll collaborate with other people.

439
00:24:52,460 --> 00:24:53,460
 That's fantastic.

440
00:24:53,460 --> 00:24:54,460
 That's, that's actually very enjoyable.

441
00:24:54,460 --> 00:24:55,460
 Yeah.

442
00:24:55,460 --> 00:24:58,460
 Um, but not when someone else is telling me what we need to collaborate over or how we need

443
00:24:58,460 --> 00:24:59,460
 to do it or something like this.

444
00:24:59,460 --> 00:25:00,460
 Yeah.

445
00:25:00,460 --> 00:25:01,460
 Yeah.

446
00:25:01,460 --> 00:25:03,460
 Or where it's like the structure is, is.

447
00:25:03,460 --> 00:25:07,460
 So you've always been allergic to authority basically.

448
00:25:07,460 --> 00:25:08,460
 Yeah.

449
00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:09,460
 Yeah.

450
00:25:09,460 --> 00:25:10,460
 Yeah.

451
00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:11,460
 Yeah.

452
00:25:11,460 --> 00:25:12,460
 Maybe that's the core.

453
00:25:12,460 --> 00:25:13,460
 Yeah.

454
00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:14,460
 Authority.

455
00:25:14,460 --> 00:25:21,460
 So I will defer to authority when I respect that authority over some particular thing that

456
00:25:21,460 --> 00:25:22,460
 I don't know as much about.

457
00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:23,460
 Right.

458
00:25:23,460 --> 00:25:24,460
 Yeah.

459
00:25:24,460 --> 00:25:25,460
 Okay.

460
00:25:25,460 --> 00:25:30,460
 Like, but I'll decide when like, that's, that's, uh, um, I think everyone does that.

461
00:25:30,460 --> 00:25:31,460
 Right.

462
00:25:31,460 --> 00:25:32,460
 Yeah.

463
00:25:32,460 --> 00:25:33,460
 Normal thing to do.

464
00:25:33,460 --> 00:25:37,460
 So the question that you're trying to ask, uh, to, to answer in some sense is, how can you

465
00:25:37,460 --> 00:25:43,460
 build a organizational structure that's similar to a company with as little authority as possible?

466
00:25:43,460 --> 00:25:44,460
 It has to have it.

467
00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:45,460
 Yeah.

468
00:25:45,460 --> 00:25:52,460
 And, and so it's for a truly decentralized for something to be decentralized, a commercial

469
00:25:52,460 --> 00:25:53,460
 venture to be decentralized.

470
00:25:53,460 --> 00:25:57,460
 I don't think, I think it has to come.

471
00:25:57,460 --> 00:26:03,460
 I'd have, it can't be, uh, we can go to a religious comparison, which is intelligent design

472
00:26:03,460 --> 00:26:04,460
 versus evolution.

473
00:26:04,460 --> 00:26:05,460
 Right.

474
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:06,460
 Okay.

475
00:26:06,460 --> 00:26:07,460
 I think it has to be evolution.

476
00:26:07,460 --> 00:26:10,460
 That's the only way it can't be intelligent design.

477
00:26:10,460 --> 00:26:11,460
 Right.

478
00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:18,460
 And so like, can profitable ventures or, um, like valuable solutions emerge from through

479
00:26:18,460 --> 00:26:21,460
 evolution based on simple rules.

480
00:26:21,460 --> 00:26:22,460
 Okay.

481
00:26:22,460 --> 00:26:23,460
 This is the core.

482
00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:30,460
 Profitability, profitability is, is, is part of the core of the question because my, my go-to

483
00:26:30,460 --> 00:26:34,460
 example to explain different organizational structures would be an open source project.

484
00:26:34,460 --> 00:26:35,460
 Right.

485
00:26:35,460 --> 00:26:36,460
 Yeah.

486
00:26:36,460 --> 00:26:38,460
 Um, but profitability flies out of the window.

487
00:26:38,460 --> 00:26:39,460
 Yeah.

488
00:26:39,460 --> 00:26:40,460
 Yeah.

489
00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:43,460
 It's just like, how can you organize groups of people that are passionate about something

490
00:26:43,460 --> 00:26:44,460
 in a way?

491
00:26:44,460 --> 00:26:48,460
 So that they actually in the long run, basically outcompete companies in many cases, which is

492
00:26:48,460 --> 00:26:50,460
 fascinating to me, obviously.

493
00:26:50,460 --> 00:26:58,460
 Um, but, um, you specifically want to have the monetization puzzle piece in the midst of it

494
00:26:58,460 --> 00:26:59,460
 all.

495
00:26:59,460 --> 00:27:00,460
 Right.

496
00:27:00,460 --> 00:27:04,460
 Because if you don't generate, if you don't generate revenue, you can't feed.

497
00:27:04,460 --> 00:27:05,460
 Yeah.

498
00:27:05,460 --> 00:27:06,460
 Yeah.

499
00:27:06,460 --> 00:27:08,460
 You, you, you have no feedback mechanism mechanism from the market.

500
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:11,460
 It's also, you don't have any, there are no resources there too.

501
00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:12,460
 Yeah.

502
00:27:12,460 --> 00:27:13,460
 Like it's, uh, yeah.

503
00:27:13,460 --> 00:27:14,460
 Yeah.

504
00:27:14,460 --> 00:27:15,460
 Yeah.

505
00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:16,460
 And open source, everything is voluntary basically.

506
00:27:16,460 --> 00:27:17,460
 Yeah.

507
00:27:17,460 --> 00:27:18,460
 Yeah.

508
00:27:18,460 --> 00:27:19,460
 So that's not sustainable.

509
00:27:19,460 --> 00:27:20,460
 Um, unless you're independently funded.

510
00:27:20,460 --> 00:27:24,460
 It's, it's, I think it's, I mean, Linux and I think we can see that it's sustainable.

511
00:27:24,460 --> 00:27:27,460
 I think it depends on your definition of sustainability.

512
00:27:27,460 --> 00:27:30,460
 So those are the, that it's like pre pre organized church.

513
00:27:30,460 --> 00:27:37,460
 In some sense, people already gave to a local church and so on, you know, like 10% of

514
00:27:37,460 --> 00:27:41,460
 your income, give to a good cause, give to the church.

515
00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:48,460
 And I think what we are experiencing right now is like a lot of developers will give 10%,

516
00:27:48,460 --> 00:27:53,460
 20%, whatever of that time to open source projects, have a regular job, get paid well.

517
00:27:53,460 --> 00:27:54,460
 Yeah.

518
00:27:54,460 --> 00:27:55,460
 And on the side, do open source.

519
00:27:55,460 --> 00:28:01,460
 There's also a lot of, a lot of, um, commercial ventures, like whatever, like random company

520
00:28:01,460 --> 00:28:07,460
 or like Spotify or whatever, they, they, they allow their staff to contribute to projects

521
00:28:07,460 --> 00:28:08,460
 cause they're using it.

522
00:28:08,460 --> 00:28:09,460
 And it's like, we have a problem with this.

523
00:28:09,460 --> 00:28:10,460
 We need to fix it.

524
00:28:10,460 --> 00:28:12,460
 So they do it themselves and that drives it.

525
00:28:12,460 --> 00:28:13,460
 Yeah.

526
00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:14,460
 There's a mix of incentives.

527
00:28:14,460 --> 00:28:15,460
 There's a lot of value there coming from.

528
00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:22,460
 Um, but, but this is not, this is not a robust, uh, way to do things.

529
00:28:22,460 --> 00:28:23,460
 This is not what's going to.

530
00:28:23,460 --> 00:28:25,460
 So you want to improve on that.

531
00:28:25,460 --> 00:28:32,460
 Um, we need, uh, some, we need some form of paradigm shift that enables us to, um, obsolete

532
00:28:32,460 --> 00:28:40,460
 the existing, the existing, uh, way that we organize the state itself.

533
00:28:40,460 --> 00:28:41,460
 Okay.

534
00:28:41,460 --> 00:28:42,460
 Okay.

535
00:28:42,460 --> 00:28:44,460
 And that has to come from the bottom up.

536
00:28:44,460 --> 00:28:45,460
 Otherwise we're just doing the same thing.

537
00:28:45,460 --> 00:28:51,460
 So we're talking immediately about the government, uh, governance and enforcement and those kinds

538
00:28:51,460 --> 00:28:52,460
 of things.

539
00:28:52,460 --> 00:28:58,460
 So, so, so talk me through that in terms of the framework that you have in mind.

540
00:28:58,460 --> 00:29:02,460
 What should the government structure look like?

541
00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:07,460
 And what is the, how can you enforce certain things?

542
00:29:07,460 --> 00:29:11,460
 Like if you, if you have a rule set, most rules can be broken and that's where enforcement

543
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:12,460
 comes into play, right?

544
00:29:12,460 --> 00:29:15,460
 Like that's where you need to, to enforce certain things.

545
00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:17,460
 DAOs run into this all the time, right?

546
00:29:17,460 --> 00:29:21,460
 Like if you have a decentralized autonomous organization and we have many of them.

547
00:29:21,460 --> 00:29:25,460
 Some of them, uh, most of them on in the shit coin world, of course.

548
00:29:25,460 --> 00:29:31,460
 Um, and I think they can be useful, but they have to find questions to all these answers.

549
00:29:31,460 --> 00:29:32,460
 Right.

550
00:29:32,460 --> 00:29:34,460
 Like how, how does governance work?

551
00:29:34,460 --> 00:29:37,460
 Uh, to some degree, we have this in the Bitcoin space as well.

552
00:29:37,460 --> 00:29:43,460
 Just like, I mean, the, uh, the, the current, uh, hot topic, uh, in the Bitcoin world is in

553
00:29:43,460 --> 00:29:45,460
 part the government, a governance.

554
00:29:45,460 --> 00:29:46,460
 I'm not going to get into it.

555
00:29:46,460 --> 00:29:47,460
 Don't worry.

556
00:29:47,460 --> 00:29:49,460
 But it is in part a governance question.

557
00:29:49,460 --> 00:29:53,460
 It's like, okay, who, who makes the rules inside Bitcoin core?

558
00:29:53,460 --> 00:29:57,460
 Who is in charge of the, you know, software development plan?

559
00:29:57,460 --> 00:30:01,460
 If you want to say that, then the releases and all those kinds of things and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

560
00:30:01,460 --> 00:30:04,460
 It's all kind of governance and also enforcement.

561
00:30:04,460 --> 00:30:10,460
 And Bitcoin is very interesting because you have these, this triangle standoff situation

562
00:30:10,460 --> 00:30:12,460
 and the balance of powers of some sort.

563
00:30:12,460 --> 00:30:13,460
 Right.

564
00:30:13,460 --> 00:30:14,460
 So, okay.

565
00:30:14,460 --> 00:30:15,460
 Developers, users.

566
00:30:15,460 --> 00:30:16,460
 Yeah.

567
00:30:16,460 --> 00:30:19,460
 It's good that you mentioned this because a lot of people don't understand the very core

568
00:30:19,460 --> 00:30:24,460
 of the power, the very core of hard power over the protocol of Bitcoin.

569
00:30:24,460 --> 00:30:25,460
 Where does it come from?

570
00:30:25,460 --> 00:30:26,460
 Right.

571
00:30:26,460 --> 00:30:28,460
 Not, not, not many people have thought about this very deeply.

572
00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:29,460
 Yeah, sure.

573
00:30:29,460 --> 00:30:34,460
 I mean, if you joined the Twitter discourse about that, it's obvious that most people have

574
00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:35,460
 thought deep about these things.

575
00:30:35,460 --> 00:30:40,460
 So it's, it's the, it's the people who receive Bitcoin as payment for something who decide

576
00:30:40,460 --> 00:30:41,460
 what Bitcoin is.

577
00:30:41,460 --> 00:30:42,460
 Oh, okay.

578
00:30:42,460 --> 00:30:45,460
 So that, that directly links into your, your mission as well.

579
00:30:45,460 --> 00:30:46,460
 Yeah, yeah.

580
00:30:46,460 --> 00:30:47,460
 Sure.

581
00:30:47,460 --> 00:30:50,460
 I mean, I've said this like many, many, many years ago, like we'll have these fights always

582
00:30:50,460 --> 00:30:52,460
 because no one can tell you what Bitcoin is.

583
00:30:52,460 --> 00:30:53,460
 Yeah.

584
00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:55,460
 You have to decide for yourself what Bitcoin is.

585
00:30:55,460 --> 00:31:02,460
 And the moment of decision basically is exactly kind of the, the, the, the economic transactions

586
00:31:02,460 --> 00:31:03,460
 that you're involved in.

587
00:31:03,460 --> 00:31:04,460
 Yes.

588
00:31:04,460 --> 00:31:09,460
 It's, it's specifically the transaction where you provide value in exchange for Bitcoin,

589
00:31:09,460 --> 00:31:14,460
 for what you consider Bitcoin, which is why it's important for Bitcoiners to produce something

590
00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:15,460
 valuable to trade.

591
00:31:15,460 --> 00:31:16,460
 Okay.

592
00:31:16,460 --> 00:31:17,460
 I see.

593
00:31:17,460 --> 00:31:20,460
 Otherwise it's going to be like BlackRock who decides what Bitcoin is.

594
00:31:20,460 --> 00:31:21,460
 Sure.

595
00:31:21,460 --> 00:31:22,460
 Yeah.

596
00:31:22,460 --> 00:31:23,460
 And this is actually part of the.

597
00:31:23,460 --> 00:31:30,460
 So a parallel economy of fanatical Bitcoiners is needed in as part of the immune system.

598
00:31:30,460 --> 00:31:31,460
 Yeah.

599
00:31:31,460 --> 00:31:32,460
 Yeah.

600
00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:33,460
 Yeah.

601
00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:42,460
 Ultimately what's needed is, is everyone who produces something to only accept Bitcoin.

602
00:31:42,460 --> 00:31:43,460
 All right.

603
00:31:43,460 --> 00:31:44,460
 Yeah.

604
00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:45,460
 I think we're getting there.

605
00:31:45,460 --> 00:31:46,460
 Yeah.

606
00:31:46,460 --> 00:31:51,460
 To some degree, but I'm still, I'm still, I'm still kind of curious about the various building

607
00:31:51,460 --> 00:31:55,460
 blocks that you would want to provide on a software level.

608
00:31:55,460 --> 00:32:01,460
 It has to be extremely simple set of rules because otherwise governance does become a problem.

609
00:32:01,460 --> 00:32:02,460
 Right.

610
00:32:02,460 --> 00:32:03,460
 And I think it's always a problem.

611
00:32:03,460 --> 00:32:05,460
 Well, I think if you, I think if you, if you.

612
00:32:05,460 --> 00:32:08,460
 It's one of those problems that doesn't have a solution, but only train offs.

613
00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:09,460
 I think we can maybe kill climb.

614
00:32:09,460 --> 00:32:10,460
 Right.

615
00:32:10,460 --> 00:32:11,460
 Okay.

616
00:32:11,460 --> 00:32:18,460
 So if the only decision you need to make is whether or not.

617
00:32:18,460 --> 00:32:19,460
 Oh, how did you phrase it?

618
00:32:19,460 --> 00:32:21,460
 Fork your way to glory or something?

619
00:32:21,460 --> 00:32:22,460
 Yeah.

620
00:32:22,460 --> 00:32:23,460
 Yeah.

621
00:32:23,460 --> 00:32:24,460
 Yeah.

622
00:32:24,460 --> 00:32:25,460
 Which is what.

623
00:32:25,460 --> 00:32:26,460
 Yeah.

624
00:32:26,460 --> 00:32:27,460
 If this argument gets heated up.

625
00:32:27,460 --> 00:32:28,460
 Yeah.

626
00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:29,460
 We will fork.

627
00:32:29,460 --> 00:32:30,460
 Yeah.

628
00:32:30,460 --> 00:32:31,460
 Yeah.

629
00:32:31,460 --> 00:32:32,460
 And the market will decide.

630
00:32:32,460 --> 00:32:33,460
 Yeah.

631
00:32:33,460 --> 00:32:34,460
 And unfortunately the market right now that will decide is going to be wall street.

632
00:32:34,460 --> 00:32:36,460
 They'll decide which fork is Bitcoin.

633
00:32:36,460 --> 00:32:37,460
 Okay.

634
00:32:37,460 --> 00:32:42,460
 So, cause they're the ones who are trading the most value for Bitcoin.

635
00:32:42,460 --> 00:32:43,460
 Right.

636
00:32:43,460 --> 00:32:48,460
 Which is fake printed USD, which for some reason people still value.

637
00:32:48,460 --> 00:32:49,460
 Okay.

638
00:32:49,460 --> 00:32:50,460
 I see.

639
00:32:50,460 --> 00:32:52,460
 So that's the problem we're in.

640
00:32:52,460 --> 00:33:00,460
 The most valuable thing that's being traded for Bitcoin right now is, is USD.

641
00:33:00,460 --> 00:33:01,460
 Right.

642
00:33:01,460 --> 00:33:02,460
 So yeah.

643
00:33:02,460 --> 00:33:03,460
 I see.

644
00:33:03,460 --> 00:33:04,460
 Yeah.

645
00:33:04,460 --> 00:33:05,460
 Stable coins.

646
00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:06,460
 Okay.

647
00:33:06,460 --> 00:33:07,460
 Okay.

648
00:33:07,460 --> 00:33:08,460
 Damn stable coins.

649
00:33:08,460 --> 00:33:12,460
 What are you thinking in terms of?

650
00:33:12,460 --> 00:33:13,460
 What could work is.

651
00:33:13,460 --> 00:33:25,460
 Like let's, let's just as comparison, like what, what works, for example, in, in, in,

652
00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:29,460
 in the field world right now with most people use or what many people do is like an LLC,

653
00:33:29,460 --> 00:33:30,460
 right?

654
00:33:30,460 --> 00:33:36,460
 Like do you have a comparison table of like LLC or public company or whatever, those kinds

655
00:33:36,460 --> 00:33:41,460
 of things, or like family, family office, you know, single person business.

656
00:33:41,460 --> 00:33:42,460
 As no, not really.

657
00:33:42,460 --> 00:33:44,460
 How it would map to, to your world.

658
00:33:44,460 --> 00:33:47,460
 No, cause it's a different, it's, it's a different paradigm.

659
00:33:47,460 --> 00:33:48,460
 Okay.

660
00:33:48,460 --> 00:33:53,460
 Um, there's no direct mapping, although there's some, I guess you could, you could use analogies.

661
00:33:53,460 --> 00:34:01,460
 So, um, the, the, I guess like the board of directors who make the decisions on how money

662
00:34:01,460 --> 00:34:11,460
 is being spent in a company, the only decision they are making is when to, when to issue, uh,

663
00:34:11,460 --> 00:34:13,460
 new shares.

664
00:34:13,460 --> 00:34:18,460
 If we limit it to that, then, then the only decision, anyone who has equity in the organization

665
00:34:18,460 --> 00:34:24,460
 needs to make, needs to make is under what circumstances, like how do we issue?

666
00:34:24,460 --> 00:34:26,460
 When do we, when do we create new equity?

667
00:34:26,460 --> 00:34:27,460
 Okay.

668
00:34:27,460 --> 00:34:28,460
 Okay.

669
00:34:28,460 --> 00:34:39,460
 And then we can narrow that down to, um, what problem did you solve for the organization?

670
00:34:39,460 --> 00:34:42,460
 Uh, where, where you should be?

671
00:34:42,460 --> 00:34:43,460
 And what, what is the value of that?

672
00:34:43,460 --> 00:34:44,460
 All right.

673
00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:45,460
 Yeah.

674
00:34:45,460 --> 00:34:47,460
 It immediately brings you into the Oracle problem.

675
00:34:47,460 --> 00:34:48,460
 How?

676
00:34:48,460 --> 00:34:49,460
 Yeah.

677
00:34:49,460 --> 00:34:50,460
 You make a bar of soap.

678
00:34:50,460 --> 00:34:52,460
 How does any system know about it?

679
00:34:52,460 --> 00:34:58,460
 No, there's this that you, you, if you want equity in the organization, you submit a request.

680
00:34:58,460 --> 00:35:04,460
 If you've done, if so, let's say, let's say we have, uh, some, uh, yeah, but you could

681
00:35:04,460 --> 00:35:05,460
 lie.

682
00:35:05,460 --> 00:35:06,460
 That's my point.

683
00:35:06,460 --> 00:35:07,460
 Yeah.

684
00:35:07,460 --> 00:35:11,460
 But I make a request to get more shares because I produced 700 bars of soap in the last week.

685
00:35:11,460 --> 00:35:12,460
 No.

686
00:35:12,460 --> 00:35:13,460
 Okay.

687
00:35:13,460 --> 00:35:14,460
 Let's take a step back.

688
00:35:14,460 --> 00:35:15,460
 So.

689
00:35:15,460 --> 00:35:16,460
 All right.

690
00:35:16,460 --> 00:35:21,460
 So, um, I'm making this up on the spot.

691
00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:22,460
 Yeah.

692
00:35:22,460 --> 00:35:23,460
 Yeah.

693
00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:24,460
 Yeah.

694
00:35:24,460 --> 00:35:25,460
 I see.

695
00:35:25,460 --> 00:35:26,460
 I see.

696
00:35:26,460 --> 00:35:27,460
 I see.

697
00:35:27,460 --> 00:35:28,460
 I see.

698
00:35:28,460 --> 00:35:30,460
 I see the, I see the, uh, you just went down.

699
00:35:30,460 --> 00:35:31,460
 It's the wrong direction.

700
00:35:31,460 --> 00:35:32,460
 Okay.

701
00:35:32,460 --> 00:35:33,460
 Get me out of it.

702
00:35:33,460 --> 00:35:42,460
 So, um, let's say, let's say, for example, um, um, let's say amethyst, right?

703
00:35:42,460 --> 00:35:48,460
 Uh, they, uh, they, they adopt the methodology of organization.

704
00:35:48,460 --> 00:35:49,460
 Okay.

705
00:35:49,460 --> 00:35:50,460
 Okay.

706
00:35:50,460 --> 00:36:02,460
 The first thing to do is Vitor, the value of what his work so far for this project is worth.

707
00:36:02,460 --> 00:36:03,460
 Okay.

708
00:36:03,460 --> 00:36:04,460
 How many hours he spent, whatever.

709
00:36:04,460 --> 00:36:08,460
 Um, and the, and you'd probably want to do that for all the contributors so far.

710
00:36:08,460 --> 00:36:09,460
 Right.

711
00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:10,460
 They do that right now.

712
00:36:10,460 --> 00:36:11,460
 Right.

713
00:36:11,460 --> 00:36:12,460
 They have subsplits in every new release.

714
00:36:12,460 --> 00:36:13,460
 Okay.

715
00:36:13,460 --> 00:36:15,460
 But let's add up all of their contribution.

716
00:36:15,460 --> 00:36:20,460
 Um, based on like how much time effort or now like tokens they've spent.

717
00:36:20,460 --> 00:36:21,460
 Right.

718
00:36:21,460 --> 00:36:26,460
 And then, and then, um, but that's back to the labor theory of value.

719
00:36:26,460 --> 00:36:27,460
 No, no, no.

720
00:36:27,460 --> 00:36:30,460
 So how, how now just wait.

721
00:36:30,460 --> 00:36:31,460
 Okay.

722
00:36:31,460 --> 00:36:32,460
 Okay.

723
00:36:32,460 --> 00:36:36,460
 I can spend tokens all day and produce nothing.

724
00:36:36,460 --> 00:36:37,460
 Yeah.

725
00:36:37,460 --> 00:36:38,460
 Yeah.

726
00:36:38,460 --> 00:36:39,460
 Yeah.

727
00:36:39,460 --> 00:36:40,460
 Yeah.

728
00:36:40,460 --> 00:36:41,460
 For sure.

729
00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:42,460
 Yeah.

730
00:36:42,460 --> 00:36:43,460
 But anyone who doesn't see through that is an idiot.

731
00:36:43,460 --> 00:36:44,460
 Right.

732
00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:54,460
 So, um, so Vitor knows how much his work is worth because that's how much he would need

733
00:36:54,460 --> 00:36:56,460
 to be paid to continue doing it.

734
00:36:56,460 --> 00:36:57,460
 Okay.

735
00:36:57,460 --> 00:36:58,460
 Continue.

736
00:36:58,460 --> 00:37:03,460
 He states that as a request for equity.

737
00:37:03,460 --> 00:37:04,460
 Okay.

738
00:37:04,460 --> 00:37:09,460
 The current, and if he's the first person doing this, then he just approves it himself.

739
00:37:09,460 --> 00:37:11,460
 And so that's the initial equity.

740
00:37:11,460 --> 00:37:12,460
 Okay.

741
00:37:12,460 --> 00:37:18,460
 So, and if he does, if he does, if he is dishonest about that, then that's the end of

742
00:37:18,460 --> 00:37:20,460
 people being interested in this endeavor.

743
00:37:20,460 --> 00:37:21,460
 Right.

744
00:37:21,460 --> 00:37:22,460
 Cause it's.

745
00:37:22,460 --> 00:37:26,460
 Every, everyone is smart and everyone looks through every scheme.

746
00:37:26,460 --> 00:37:33,460
 Well, if he, if he says his value is like, uh, you know, like 10 million USD.

747
00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:40,460
 Then like, and then the value of my contribution is like a dollar, but we've spent like a similar

748
00:37:40,460 --> 00:37:41,460
 amount of time.

749
00:37:41,460 --> 00:37:41,460
 Like a similar amount of time.

750
00:37:41,460 --> 00:37:42,460
 Then I'm just going to be like, no, okay.

751
00:37:42,460 --> 00:37:45,460
 I'm just going to fork that and do my own, do it my own way.

752
00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:46,460
 Right.

753
00:37:46,460 --> 00:37:50,460
 So is it, this comes down to like who, who's enforcing the fair authority of the project.

754
00:37:50,460 --> 00:37:51,460
 Right.

755
00:37:51,460 --> 00:37:51,460
 Okay.

756
00:37:51,460 --> 00:37:52,460
 It's the founder.

757
00:37:52,460 --> 00:37:53,460
 Okay.

758
00:37:53,460 --> 00:37:57,460
 So if the founder, I understand the forking mechanics, if it will remain in cyberspace

759
00:37:57,460 --> 00:37:58,460
 for any real stuff, that's way harder.

760
00:37:58,460 --> 00:37:59,460
 Okay.

761
00:37:59,460 --> 00:38:00,460
 So real stuff.

762
00:38:00,460 --> 00:38:01,460
 I don't know yet.

763
00:38:01,460 --> 00:38:02,460
 Okay.

764
00:38:02,460 --> 00:38:03,460
 Cause that's harder.

765
00:38:03,460 --> 00:38:06,460
 That's harder to, that's harder to stay in cyberspace.

766
00:38:06,460 --> 00:38:08,460
 No, no, no bars of soap.

767
00:38:08,460 --> 00:38:10,460
 Only kind of, you know, features of NOSA clients.

768
00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:11,460
 Okay.

769
00:38:11,460 --> 00:38:12,460
 So let's say new NOSA client.

770
00:38:12,460 --> 00:38:13,460
 You build a new NOSA client.

771
00:38:13,460 --> 00:38:14,460
 Okay.

772
00:38:14,460 --> 00:38:15,460
 Um, two days on it.

773
00:38:15,460 --> 00:38:18,460
 And you think that's worth like, um, like a thousand USD.

774
00:38:18,460 --> 00:38:19,460
 Okay.

775
00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:26,460
 Then, um, you, you, um, I incorporate in NOSA.

776
00:38:26,460 --> 00:38:27,460
 Okay.

777
00:38:27,460 --> 00:38:38,460
 You, you, the broad concept is that you then, um, request from yourself, uh, you basically

778
00:38:38,460 --> 00:38:43,460
 create that thousand USD worth of equity in a project at the current value of the project,

779
00:38:43,460 --> 00:38:48,460
 which is, um, which, which, which is, well, you can, you can value it as something though,

780
00:38:48,460 --> 00:38:49,460
 right?

781
00:38:49,460 --> 00:38:50,460
 You can value it.

782
00:38:50,460 --> 00:38:51,460
 You can decide.

783
00:38:51,460 --> 00:38:57,460
 So, but, but I think basically, um, one set for, I think a good starting point is just

784
00:38:57,460 --> 00:39:02,460
 have like one set for one, one, I call them merits, not equity.

785
00:39:02,460 --> 00:39:03,460
 Okay.

786
00:39:03,460 --> 00:39:08,460
 Cause I don't really like equity is not exactly the right term, but so one set per merit,

787
00:39:08,460 --> 00:39:09,460
 right?

788
00:39:09,460 --> 00:39:10,460
 Cause there is no market for this yet.

789
00:39:10,460 --> 00:39:11,460
 Right.

790
00:39:11,460 --> 00:39:13,460
 We didn't know the value, but you just start at one set.

791
00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:18,460
 It doesn't really matter where you started, but just say it's one set per per, like one

792
00:39:18,460 --> 00:39:21,460
 set of worth of your work is, uh, one merit.

793
00:39:21,460 --> 00:39:22,460
 Okay.

794
00:39:22,460 --> 00:39:23,460
 Right.

795
00:39:23,460 --> 00:39:28,460
 So then you asked like someone else that you asked Pablo to contribute and he can see,

796
00:39:28,460 --> 00:39:37,460
 I would never, it would be a bad idea, but just, so then, uh, Pablo comes along and he

797
00:39:37,460 --> 00:39:43,460
 sees that the amount you've stated is, it makes sense based on what he can see in terms of the

798
00:39:43,460 --> 00:39:44,460
 actual contribution.

799
00:39:44,460 --> 00:39:47,460
 Um, he solves a problem.

800
00:39:47,460 --> 00:39:48,460
 He contributes something somehow.

801
00:39:48,460 --> 00:39:53,460
 Um, his, his amount is probably like quite similar to yours.

802
00:39:53,460 --> 00:39:55,460
 Cause it's an early stage thing.

803
00:39:55,460 --> 00:40:02,460
 Uh, so then now you have basically, he sends in a merit request and a request for equity.

804
00:40:02,460 --> 00:40:05,460
 And then you have to decide whether or not to approve that.

805
00:40:05,460 --> 00:40:07,460
 Cause you're the only one, only one who can vote right now.

806
00:40:07,460 --> 00:40:09,460
 Cause you have all of the equity.

807
00:40:09,460 --> 00:40:10,460
 Okay.

808
00:40:10,460 --> 00:40:12,460
 So then we build up a cap table of equity this way.

809
00:40:12,460 --> 00:40:13,460
 Okay.

810
00:40:13,460 --> 00:40:23,460
 Um, and if you, if you are dishonest in your conduct, other people are other intelligent

811
00:40:23,460 --> 00:40:24,460
 people.

812
00:40:24,460 --> 00:40:27,460
 And why would you want non-intelligent people to be contributing other intelligent people

813
00:40:27,460 --> 00:40:29,460
 are not going to be interested.

814
00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:30,460
 Right.

815
00:40:30,460 --> 00:40:35,460
 And if you reject someone's request, which is fair, then that's the end of them contributing.

816
00:40:35,460 --> 00:40:37,460
 And other people will also see that they won't contribute though.

817
00:40:37,460 --> 00:40:39,460
 They can still fork your project.

818
00:40:39,460 --> 00:40:44,460
 Uh, but if you're fair about it and everyone else is fair, basically this rewards honesty more

819
00:40:44,460 --> 00:40:45,460
 than dishonesty.

820
00:40:45,460 --> 00:40:46,460
 Okay.

821
00:40:46,460 --> 00:40:47,460
 In theory.

822
00:40:47,460 --> 00:40:48,460
 In theory.

823
00:40:48,460 --> 00:40:49,460
 We'll, we'll find out.

824
00:40:49,460 --> 00:40:50,460
 Devil's advocate.

825
00:40:50,460 --> 00:40:51,460
 Yeah.

826
00:40:51,460 --> 00:40:56,460
 Sometimes you want dumb people, definitely because some robots, right?

827
00:40:56,460 --> 00:40:58,460
 Amazon warehouse workers, for example.

828
00:40:58,460 --> 00:40:59,460
 We have this now.

829
00:40:59,460 --> 00:41:00,460
 It's Claude.

830
00:41:00,460 --> 00:41:01,460
 Fair enough.

831
00:41:01,460 --> 00:41:02,460
 Fair enough.

832
00:41:02,460 --> 00:41:03,460
 Fair enough.

833
00:41:03,460 --> 00:41:08,460
 I think when you expand into broader, you know what I mean?

834
00:41:08,460 --> 00:41:09,460
 When you expand into broader things.

835
00:41:09,460 --> 00:41:10,460
 Yeah.

836
00:41:10,460 --> 00:41:14,460
 Like in the, there's good, like, let's say like you organize a conference based on this

837
00:41:14,460 --> 00:41:18,460
 techniques and you need people to do like arrange tables or like there's a bunch of like,

838
00:41:18,460 --> 00:41:19,460
 yeah.

839
00:41:19,460 --> 00:41:20,460
 So yeah.

840
00:41:20,460 --> 00:41:21,460
 Yeah.

841
00:41:21,460 --> 00:41:22,460
 Yeah.

842
00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:23,460
 Yeah.

843
00:41:23,460 --> 00:41:27,460
 But it still comes down to the, the project.

844
00:41:27,460 --> 00:41:28,460
 So yeah.

845
00:41:28,460 --> 00:41:28,460
 Yeah.

846
00:41:28,460 --> 00:41:29,460
 Yeah.

847
00:41:29,460 --> 00:41:30,460
 Yeah.

848
00:41:30,460 --> 00:41:30,460
 Yeah.

849
00:41:30,460 --> 00:41:31,460
 Yeah.

850
00:41:31,460 --> 00:41:32,460
 Okay.

851
00:41:32,460 --> 00:41:33,460
 Yeah.

852
00:41:33,460 --> 00:41:34,460
 Yeah.

853
00:41:34,460 --> 00:41:35,460
 So I won't challenge you.

854
00:41:35,460 --> 00:41:36,460
 I think the market will sort that out.

855
00:41:36,460 --> 00:41:37,460
 I think, I think, I think to.

856
00:41:37,460 --> 00:41:37,460
 Yeah.

857
00:41:37,460 --> 00:41:38,460
 Yeah.

858
00:41:38,460 --> 00:41:39,460
 Yeah.

859
00:41:39,460 --> 00:41:39,460
 Yeah.

860
00:41:39,460 --> 00:41:40,460
 Yeah.

861
00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:40,460
 Yeah.

862
00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:41,460
 Yeah.

863
00:41:41,460 --> 00:41:41,460
 Yeah.

864
00:41:41,460 --> 00:41:42,460
 Yeah.

865
00:41:42,460 --> 00:41:42,460
 Yeah.

866
00:41:42,460 --> 00:41:43,460
 Yeah.

867
00:41:43,460 --> 00:41:43,460
 Yeah.

868
00:41:43,460 --> 00:41:44,460
 Yeah.

869
00:41:44,460 --> 00:41:44,460
 Yeah.

870
00:41:44,460 --> 00:41:45,460
 Yeah.

871
00:41:45,460 --> 00:41:46,460
 So I won't challenge you.

872
00:41:46,460 --> 00:41:48,460
 I think the market will sort that out.

873
00:41:48,460 --> 00:41:49,460
 I think, I think too.

874
00:41:49,460 --> 00:41:57,460
 Unfair system are similar to authoritarian systems.

875
00:41:57,460 --> 00:41:58,460
 Yeah.

876
00:41:58,460 --> 00:42:03,460
 Which means they need to spend energy and time and resources to enforce.

877
00:42:03,460 --> 00:42:04,460
 Yes.

878
00:42:04,460 --> 00:42:05,460
 Exactly.

879
00:42:05,460 --> 00:42:07,460
 To crack down, like cracking down on stuff.

880
00:42:07,460 --> 00:42:09,460
 And it takes a lot of energy.

881
00:42:09,460 --> 00:42:10,460
 Yeah.

882
00:42:10,460 --> 00:42:15,460
 And in the long run, a self organizing system that doesn't need that much enforcement.

883
00:42:15,460 --> 00:42:16,460
 Yeah.

884
00:42:16,460 --> 00:42:19,460
 And it doesn't have this crack down problem and all those kinds of things and isn't authoritarian.

885
00:42:19,460 --> 00:42:22,460
 Uh, out competes, um, an authoritarian system.

886
00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:23,460
 Yeah.

887
00:42:23,460 --> 00:42:25,460
 It's like the jungle out competes, whatever.

888
00:42:25,460 --> 00:42:30,460
 Like, I don't have a, I don't have, I don't have another, I don't have the counter now.

889
00:42:30,460 --> 00:42:33,460
 But no, I actually have it.

890
00:42:33,460 --> 00:42:35,460
 The greenhouse.

891
00:42:35,460 --> 00:42:39,460
 The jungle will out compete the greenhouse in the long term because the greenhouse needs upkeep.

892
00:42:39,460 --> 00:42:42,460
 The greenhouse needs people to keep things in Jack and so on.

893
00:42:42,460 --> 00:42:47,460
 And over like a hundred, couple hundred years, a thousand years, the jungle will out compete the greenhouse.

894
00:42:47,460 --> 00:42:48,460
 Yeah.

895
00:42:48,460 --> 00:42:51,460
 The greenhouse will just break down and wither away and someone will not be able to pay the upkeep.

896
00:42:51,460 --> 00:42:52,460
 And that's just it.

897
00:42:52,460 --> 00:42:55,460
 It's, um, I think like Piaget wrote about this.

898
00:42:55,460 --> 00:42:57,460
 It's like a Piagetian balance.

899
00:42:57,460 --> 00:42:59,460
 Not a, not a French dude.

900
00:42:59,460 --> 00:43:00,460
 Yeah.

901
00:43:00,460 --> 00:43:01,460
 Unfortunately.

902
00:43:01,460 --> 00:43:02,460
 Damn French.

903
00:43:02,460 --> 00:43:03,460
 There are a few.

904
00:43:03,460 --> 00:43:07,460
 I'm not sure if it's stable coins or French, but it's, it's close.

905
00:43:07,460 --> 00:43:08,460
 Yeah.

906
00:43:08,460 --> 00:43:13,460
 So that's why I think these organizations will out, will just crush the traditional system.

907
00:43:13,460 --> 00:43:14,460
 Okay.

908
00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:15,460
 If, if you figure out.

909
00:43:15,460 --> 00:43:16,460
 If it ever starts working.

910
00:43:16,460 --> 00:43:17,460
 If it starts working.

911
00:43:17,460 --> 00:43:18,460
 Yeah.

912
00:43:18,460 --> 00:43:19,460
 Okay.

913
00:43:19,460 --> 00:43:23,460
 So similar, again, similar, similar in the, in the, in the, in the sense that Linux out competed

914
00:43:23,460 --> 00:43:28,460
 to the Microsoft servers and open source projects out compete commercial projects in the long run.

915
00:43:28,460 --> 00:43:29,460
 Like it's always in the long run.

916
00:43:29,460 --> 00:43:31,460
 And open source models will out compete to close.

917
00:43:31,460 --> 00:43:32,460
 Yeah.

918
00:43:32,460 --> 00:43:33,460
 For example.

919
00:43:33,460 --> 00:43:34,460
 And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

920
00:43:34,460 --> 00:43:36,460
 Local models will out compete the centralized brain and so on.

921
00:43:36,460 --> 00:43:43,460
 That's, that's actually a similar like jungle greenhouse discussion because we have a monoculture

922
00:43:43,460 --> 00:43:45,460
 multi-culture thing going on.

923
00:43:45,460 --> 00:43:51,460
 Like a centralized brain will crumble on the monoculture dynamics, um, which will be an issue.

924
00:43:51,460 --> 00:43:57,460
 I, I, I predict, I think, but anyway, like, okay, so that's, that's your grand vision for,

925
00:43:57,460 --> 00:44:06,460
 um, a new organization, a new style of organizational structuring in cyberspace.

926
00:44:06,460 --> 00:44:07,460
 Let's ignore the soaps.

927
00:44:07,460 --> 00:44:08,460
 Yeah.

928
00:44:08,460 --> 00:44:09,460
 For now.

929
00:44:09,460 --> 00:44:10,460
 For now.

930
00:44:10,460 --> 00:44:11,460
 I think we'll figure it out.

931
00:44:11,460 --> 00:44:18,460
 It's based around basically contribution merit, which translates to equity and you're paid

932
00:44:18,460 --> 00:44:19,460
 out in stats.

933
00:44:19,460 --> 00:44:20,460
 Yes.

934
00:44:20,460 --> 00:44:22,460
 Did I, is that a summary?

935
00:44:22,460 --> 00:44:26,460
 You're, you're paid out in revenue that it, if, if the project generates revenue, then

936
00:44:26,460 --> 00:44:27,460
 So sat flows, you got a.

937
00:44:27,460 --> 00:44:28,460
 Yeah.

938
00:44:28,460 --> 00:44:29,460
 Yeah.

939
00:44:29,460 --> 00:44:30,460
 Yeah.

940
00:44:30,460 --> 00:44:31,460
 Okay.

941
00:44:31,460 --> 00:44:32,460
 Yeah.

942
00:44:32,460 --> 00:44:33,460
 Same thing.

943
00:44:33,460 --> 00:44:34,460
 Okay.

944
00:44:34,460 --> 00:44:35,460
 Yeah.

945
00:44:35,460 --> 00:44:36,460
 All right.

946
00:44:36,460 --> 00:44:37,460
 Okay.

947
00:44:37,460 --> 00:44:37,460
 Cool.

948
00:44:37,460 --> 00:44:38,460
 Yeah.

949
00:44:38,460 --> 00:44:39,460
 Set flows, set flows are the, the, the, the, the, like, it's all about set flows.

950
00:44:39,460 --> 00:44:40,460
 Yeah.

951
00:44:40,460 --> 00:44:41,460
 Yeah.

952
00:44:41,460 --> 00:44:42,460
 Like if you're, if you look at your personal life, I had this long thread.

953
00:44:42,460 --> 00:44:43,460
 I'll, I'll have to link to it.

954
00:44:43,460 --> 00:44:47,460
 Um, I mean, I can't, it's fucking, you know, nuked my Twitter years ago.

955
00:44:47,460 --> 00:44:48,460
 I have an archive somewhere.

956
00:44:48,460 --> 00:44:50,460
 I'll dig it out and I'll link to it.

957
00:44:50,460 --> 00:44:58,460
 And it was about basically stop thinking about, um, uh, first of all, dollar value.

958
00:44:58,460 --> 00:45:05,460
 And in terms of stacking sets, don't like, don't over, um, how should I put it?

959
00:45:05,460 --> 00:45:06,460
 Don't obsess over the numbers.

960
00:45:06,460 --> 00:45:08,460
 Don't obsess over the numerology of what you're doing.

961
00:45:08,460 --> 00:45:09,460
 Yeah.

962
00:45:09,460 --> 00:45:14,460
 You have certain economic inflows and you have certain economic outflows, which are your,

963
00:45:14,460 --> 00:45:15,460
 your spending.

964
00:45:15,460 --> 00:45:19,460
 If you're an individual, if you're a company, it's also your suppliers, all those kinds of

965
00:45:19,460 --> 00:45:20,460
 things.

966
00:45:20,460 --> 00:45:25,460
 And basically the name of the game is like the difference between your inflows and your outflows

967
00:45:25,460 --> 00:45:26,460
 is your balance.

968
00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:32,460
 And the, the stuff that you don't like, if, if, if your balance increases over time, that's

969
00:45:32,460 --> 00:45:33,460
 your savings.

970
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:35,460
 And so you have to maximize your inflows.

971
00:45:35,460 --> 00:45:39,460
 You maximize your economic inflows by again, like producing soap, whatever.

972
00:45:39,460 --> 00:45:40,460
 Yeah.

973
00:45:40,460 --> 00:45:47,460
 Or like clients with features that hopefully people will pay for and reduce your, your outflows,

974
00:45:47,460 --> 00:45:49,460
 like spend less than you make and so on.

975
00:45:49,460 --> 00:45:53,460
 And whatever you can afford to save, save it in Bitcoin.

976
00:45:53,460 --> 00:45:58,460
 And that's basically what, what, what that translates to what actually is now a thing.

977
00:45:58,460 --> 00:46:03,460
 Like we went from a stay humble stack sets to like the, the third line stay humble stack

978
00:46:03,460 --> 00:46:04,460
 sets, focus on your craft, right?

979
00:46:04,460 --> 00:46:06,460
 It's like, get really good at what you're good at.

980
00:46:06,460 --> 00:46:08,460
 And that will make you useful in society.

981
00:46:08,460 --> 00:46:10,460
 It will allow you to earn money.

982
00:46:10,460 --> 00:46:15,460
 And it, and I kind of like the point of the whole thread was to, I drew it.

983
00:46:15,460 --> 00:46:20,460
 And like, it's literally like a green income stream and like a red outflow stream and so

984
00:46:20,460 --> 00:46:21,460
 on.

985
00:46:21,460 --> 00:46:25,460
 And the point was to, to, to, to get the point across that it doesn't matter whether you

986
00:46:25,460 --> 00:46:29,460
 earn, like that's counter to your point, by the way, it doesn't matter whether you earn

987
00:46:29,460 --> 00:46:32,460
 Euro or USD or Japanese yen or whatever.

988
00:46:32,460 --> 00:46:34,460
 As long as you're saving in Bitcoin, you're still gold.

989
00:46:34,460 --> 00:46:35,460
 Yeah, that's true.

990
00:46:35,460 --> 00:46:38,460
 And so, so you just have to save and hold in Bitcoin.

991
00:46:38,460 --> 00:46:42,460
 And, and of course, over the long run, I mean, I am in this position.

992
00:46:42,460 --> 00:46:48,460
 Like I earn Bitcoin exclusively and I like, like all my, I still have books on Amazon.

993
00:46:48,460 --> 00:46:53,460
 So I still have like, you know, a little bit of fiat income, but it's negligible.

994
00:46:53,460 --> 00:46:56,460
 And, and all, most of my spending is in Bitcoin as well.

995
00:46:56,460 --> 00:46:57,460
 So I live on a full Bitcoin standard.

996
00:46:57,460 --> 00:46:58,460
 All my savings are in Bitcoin basically.

997
00:46:58,460 --> 00:46:59,460
 I don't have any savings.

998
00:46:59,460 --> 00:47:00,460
 I don't have any Bitcoin.

999
00:47:00,460 --> 00:47:03,460
 Like, you know, obviously we just were in a boat before.

1000
00:47:03,460 --> 00:47:08,460
 So like that goes without saying, but I think that's also the, the, what happened to

1001
00:47:08,460 --> 00:47:09,460
 a lot of people.

1002
00:47:09,460 --> 00:47:15,460
 Like if you start doing that, your savings will be like 1% is in Bitcoin.

1003
00:47:15,460 --> 00:47:19,460
 A couple of years pass and then it's like, it's not 1% anymore.

1004
00:47:19,460 --> 00:47:21,460
 Maybe it's like 10 or 20 and another couple of years pass.

1005
00:47:21,460 --> 00:47:25,460
 And it's very quickly going to be 90 with things that are going like fiat is only going down.

1006
00:47:25,460 --> 00:47:30,460
 Bitcoin is hopefully not going down as much as fiat.

1007
00:47:30,460 --> 00:47:41,460
 And so, I think rephrasing everything about economic inputs and outputs makes a lot of sense,

1008
00:47:41,460 --> 00:47:44,460
 not only on the individual level, but also on an organizational level.

1009
00:47:44,460 --> 00:47:51,460
 Although one key requirement of this would be that it's non-custodial, right?

1010
00:47:51,460 --> 00:47:52,460
 So yeah.

1011
00:47:52,460 --> 00:47:53,460
 Yeah.

1012
00:47:53,460 --> 00:47:54,460
 You have to hold it yourself.

1013
00:47:54,460 --> 00:47:56,460
 You have to hold actual, you have to hold Bitcoin.

1014
00:47:56,460 --> 00:47:57,460
 Yeah.

1015
00:47:57,460 --> 00:47:59,460
 I don't count Bitcoin exposure as holding Bitcoin.

1016
00:47:59,460 --> 00:48:01,460
 The organization can't hold anything.

1017
00:48:01,460 --> 00:48:03,460
 It's just a conduit.

1018
00:48:03,460 --> 00:48:04,460
 Oh, interesting.

1019
00:48:04,460 --> 00:48:09,460
 So then we get into what does it mean to hold Bitcoin and can it be done in a multisig kind of question.

1020
00:48:09,460 --> 00:48:12,460
 We don't need to hold anything in a multisig.

1021
00:48:12,460 --> 00:48:14,460
 Because you do the payouts all the time.

1022
00:48:14,460 --> 00:48:16,460
 So everything flows through the system all the time.

1023
00:48:16,460 --> 00:48:17,460
 Yeah.

1024
00:48:17,460 --> 00:48:18,460
 Okay.

1025
00:48:18,460 --> 00:48:19,460
 Because you don't want to hold Bitcoin on behalf of Bitcoin.

1026
00:48:19,460 --> 00:48:20,460
 Yeah.

1027
00:48:20,460 --> 00:48:27,460
 But that kind of doesn't work in the economic sense of like, you know, I can't stream a cow.

1028
00:48:27,460 --> 00:48:32,460
 You know, like in cyberspace, it might work, but it's, it's, you, you need, you need capital

1029
00:48:32,460 --> 00:48:34,460
 formation and you can't.

1030
00:48:34,460 --> 00:48:35,460
 Okay.

1031
00:48:35,460 --> 00:48:39,460
 But what you need capital formation for is to acquire like inputs, right?

1032
00:48:39,460 --> 00:48:40,460
 Right.

1033
00:48:40,460 --> 00:48:45,460
 Like if, if I want to sell steak, I can't stream the cow.

1034
00:48:45,460 --> 00:48:46,460
 You know what I'm trying to get at?

1035
00:48:46,460 --> 00:48:47,460
 Yes.

1036
00:48:47,460 --> 00:48:48,460
 You have to raise the cow.

1037
00:48:48,460 --> 00:48:51,460
 You have to like, and, and, and then you'll get a bunch of money all at once, but it took

1038
00:48:51,460 --> 00:48:52,460
 you a long time to raise the cow.

1039
00:48:52,460 --> 00:48:53,460
 Yeah.

1040
00:48:53,460 --> 00:48:54,460
 Yeah.

1041
00:48:54,460 --> 00:48:55,460
 Yeah.

1042
00:48:55,460 --> 00:49:00,460
 But, um, I think as the organizations grow bigger, it's acceptable.

1043
00:49:00,460 --> 00:49:04,460
 So what basically what people are doing in these organizations is giving the organization

1044
00:49:04,460 --> 00:49:07,460
 credit, which is their time and effort.

1045
00:49:07,460 --> 00:49:08,460
 Right.

1046
00:49:08,460 --> 00:49:10,460
 Or whatever they're giving it, but it can also be a cow.

1047
00:49:10,460 --> 00:49:11,460
 Right.

1048
00:49:11,460 --> 00:49:13,460
 They're speaking of cows.

1049
00:49:13,460 --> 00:49:14,460
 I'm really hungry.

1050
00:49:14,460 --> 00:49:15,460
 Should we do one more round?

1051
00:49:15,460 --> 00:49:18,460
 And then like, once we head down, we'll go find a cow.

1052
00:49:18,460 --> 00:49:19,460
 We'll go find a cow.

1053
00:49:19,460 --> 00:49:23,460
 We'll stream some, we'll stream, I'll stream some cow in my mouth.

1054
00:49:23,460 --> 00:49:26,460
 So everything becomes a request for merits.

1055
00:49:26,460 --> 00:49:27,460
 Okay.

1056
00:49:27,460 --> 00:49:28,460
 So all the inputs.

1057
00:49:28,460 --> 00:49:35,460
 So that's, that's basically, that's your, um, that's the cornerstone of the whole thing

1058
00:49:35,460 --> 00:49:40,460
 is, is the merit based system request for merit, which is like, I understand it as like a share.

1059
00:49:40,460 --> 00:49:41,460
 Yeah.

1060
00:49:41,460 --> 00:49:42,460
 Okay.

1061
00:49:42,460 --> 00:49:43,460
 It's a share in the set flow.

1062
00:49:43,460 --> 00:49:44,460
 Okay.

1063
00:49:44,460 --> 00:49:49,460
 But then if it is married based, like what, what it, it, it, it relies, the whole system relies

1064
00:49:49,460 --> 00:49:51,460
 on human judgment, right?

1065
00:49:51,460 --> 00:49:52,460
 Yeah.

1066
00:49:52,460 --> 00:49:53,460
 Yeah.

1067
00:49:53,460 --> 00:49:54,460
 But it's adversarial judgment.

1068
00:49:54,460 --> 00:49:56,460
 So, um, you are submitting a merit request.

1069
00:49:56,460 --> 00:49:59,460
 So you value your, whatever you're providing, providing you value that yourself.

1070
00:49:59,460 --> 00:50:03,460
 Uh, and you're taking a risk because maybe you don't, I mean, that's just like, that's just

1071
00:50:03,460 --> 00:50:05,460
 like a negotiation for a salary.

1072
00:50:05,460 --> 00:50:06,460
 Right.

1073
00:50:06,460 --> 00:50:07,460
 In some sense.

1074
00:50:07,460 --> 00:50:08,460
 In some sense.

1075
00:50:08,460 --> 00:50:09,460
 Yeah.

1076
00:50:09,460 --> 00:50:10,460
 Yeah.

1077
00:50:10,460 --> 00:50:11,460
 Here is what I want to have.

1078
00:50:11,460 --> 00:50:12,460
 And then the other party comes back to you.

1079
00:50:12,460 --> 00:50:13,460
 No way.

1080
00:50:13,460 --> 00:50:15,460
 Like I'm maybe I'm going to pay you half.

1081
00:50:15,460 --> 00:50:16,460
 Yeah.

1082
00:50:16,460 --> 00:50:21,460
 But I think if you're, I think generally speaking, if you're like honest about the, either way,

1083
00:50:21,460 --> 00:50:22,460
 it's fine.

1084
00:50:22,460 --> 00:50:27,460
 Because if, if you honestly believe in the value that, that that's the value that you just provide

1085
00:50:27,460 --> 00:50:30,460
 that to you to continue doing this, you would need this much value.

1086
00:50:30,460 --> 00:50:33,460
 Then if they say no, then it just means you can't continue doing that.

1087
00:50:33,460 --> 00:50:34,460
 Anyway, it doesn't make sense.

1088
00:50:34,460 --> 00:50:40,460
 And then, um, if, if there's a, if there's a, if that's because of, uh, if they're rejecting

1089
00:50:40,460 --> 00:50:45,460
 that because of dishonesty, like they don't want to, they want to keep all the merits.

1090
00:50:45,460 --> 00:50:46,460
 Right.

1091
00:50:46,460 --> 00:50:47,460
 Right.

1092
00:50:47,460 --> 00:50:49,460
 Then, well, that, that's the end of that, that project.

1093
00:50:49,460 --> 00:50:50,460
 Right.

1094
00:50:50,460 --> 00:50:52,460
 And you can fork that and just do it your own way and you become the authority now.

1095
00:50:52,460 --> 00:50:53,460
 All right.

1096
00:50:53,460 --> 00:51:00,460
 So, um, this is why it, it, it basically, uh, the more honest you are, the more you're going

1097
00:51:00,460 --> 00:51:01,460
 to get out of this system.

1098
00:51:01,460 --> 00:51:03,460
 I mean, I think that's true in principle.

1099
00:51:03,460 --> 00:51:05,460
 I would agree with you kind of in the long run.

1100
00:51:05,460 --> 00:51:11,460
 I think that's like all the big religions or Christianity in particular has in, that's

1101
00:51:11,460 --> 00:51:12,460
 going for it.

1102
00:51:12,460 --> 00:51:17,460
 It's like basically the best way to live life is to never lie.

1103
00:51:17,460 --> 00:51:18,460
 Yeah.

1104
00:51:18,460 --> 00:51:20,460
 Otherwise you won't go very far.

1105
00:51:20,460 --> 00:51:25,460
 And I think, you know, I think because people are, humans are.

1106
00:51:25,460 --> 00:51:26,460
 It adds friction.

1107
00:51:26,460 --> 00:51:27,460
 Human massively.

1108
00:51:27,460 --> 00:51:30,460
 I mean, you have to keep all the lies in your head and so on and build up these separate

1109
00:51:30,460 --> 00:51:31,460
 worlds that don't exist.

1110
00:51:31,460 --> 00:51:32,460
 Yeah.

1111
00:51:32,460 --> 00:51:37,460
 Um, but also humans are very good at, you know, um, they have reputation machines basically.

1112
00:51:37,460 --> 00:51:38,460
 Yeah.

1113
00:51:38,460 --> 00:51:39,460
 Yeah.

1114
00:51:39,460 --> 00:51:40,460
 Like very good at remembering.

1115
00:51:40,460 --> 00:51:44,460
 There's another interesting thing, which is, so this whole thing also came about because,

1116
00:51:44,460 --> 00:51:52,460
 um, um, we need to build organizational structures that are immune to take, take over by psychopaths.

1117
00:51:52,460 --> 00:51:53,460
 Okay.

1118
00:51:53,460 --> 00:51:54,460
 But that's really hard.

1119
00:51:54,460 --> 00:51:56,460
 That's kind of, I think this solves it.

1120
00:51:56,460 --> 00:51:57,460
 Okay.

1121
00:51:57,460 --> 00:51:58,460
 Yeah.

1122
00:51:58,460 --> 00:51:59,460
 They can operate within this if they don't do the psychopath.

1123
00:51:59,460 --> 00:52:01,460
 You just fork away, but that only works in cyberspace.

1124
00:52:01,460 --> 00:52:02,460
 We're back to the enforcement thing.

1125
00:52:02,460 --> 00:52:03,460
 Kind of.

1126
00:52:03,460 --> 00:52:04,460
 No, I think.

1127
00:52:04,460 --> 00:52:05,460
 I think.

1128
00:52:05,460 --> 00:52:06,460
 I think.

1129
00:52:06,460 --> 00:52:08,460
 Like if you can easily fork, then I would agree.

1130
00:52:08,460 --> 00:52:09,460
 Mm.

1131
00:52:09,460 --> 00:52:10,460
 To some extent.

1132
00:52:10,460 --> 00:52:11,460
 And we see this with open source projects.

1133
00:52:11,460 --> 00:52:14,460
 Like where there's lots of psychopathic people.

1134
00:52:14,460 --> 00:52:15,460
 Yeah.

1135
00:52:15,460 --> 00:52:16,460
 Of open source projects.

1136
00:52:16,460 --> 00:52:19,460
 And sometimes the other contributors just like, you know, fork him away.

1137
00:52:19,460 --> 00:52:20,460
 Yeah.

1138
00:52:20,460 --> 00:52:21,460
 Yeah.

1139
00:52:21,460 --> 00:52:22,460
 So I would agree with that.

1140
00:52:22,460 --> 00:52:25,460
 But with, in real world scenarios, I think it's, it's harder.

1141
00:52:25,460 --> 00:52:27,460
 It's like forking away a bad King.

1142
00:52:27,460 --> 00:52:28,460
 Right?

1143
00:52:28,460 --> 00:52:33,460
 But they only got in there by, they only got that position.

1144
00:52:33,460 --> 00:52:35,460
 I don't, they can't get that position in the first place.

1145
00:52:35,460 --> 00:52:37,460
 Cause it doesn't matter how much talking they do.

1146
00:52:37,460 --> 00:52:39,460
 They're not going to get the equity unless someone approves it.

1147
00:52:39,460 --> 00:52:40,460
 So like.

1148
00:52:40,460 --> 00:52:41,460
 Yeah.

1149
00:52:41,460 --> 00:52:43,460
 But people can be convinced and people can be swindlers.

1150
00:52:43,460 --> 00:52:48,460
 And you know, some of the, uh, most powerful people were very convincing and charming,

1151
00:52:48,460 --> 00:52:50,460
 even though they didn't tell the whole truth.

1152
00:52:50,460 --> 00:52:51,460
 Yeah.

1153
00:52:51,460 --> 00:52:52,460
 Sure.

1154
00:52:52,460 --> 00:52:54,460
 There was this one Austrian guy who, you know, was a great painter.

1155
00:52:54,460 --> 00:52:55,460
 Yeah.

1156
00:52:55,460 --> 00:52:56,460
 He was a good painter.

1157
00:52:56,460 --> 00:53:00,460
 And I mean, we have to, uh, you know, you have to separate the man from the art.

1158
00:53:00,460 --> 00:53:01,460
 Always.

1159
00:53:01,460 --> 00:53:02,460
 Yeah.

1160
00:53:02,460 --> 00:53:03,460
 But you get my point, right?

1161
00:53:03,460 --> 00:53:07,460
 Like then I think this happens in open source projects as well, where it's just, it takes

1162
00:53:07,460 --> 00:53:11,460
 a long while until you figure out that someone is actually insane or bullshitting or what

1163
00:53:11,460 --> 00:53:12,460
 have you.

1164
00:53:12,460 --> 00:53:17,460
 But this, this, this, this, this pushes that, this brings that to a head immediately because

1165
00:53:17,460 --> 00:53:22,460
 they're asking for equity based on the problem they've solved and the value of solving

1166
00:53:22,460 --> 00:53:23,460
 that problem.

1167
00:53:23,460 --> 00:53:25,460
 And so the discussion happens right then and there.

1168
00:53:25,460 --> 00:53:27,460
 Like, is this guy full of shit or not?

1169
00:53:27,460 --> 00:53:28,460
 Yeah.

1170
00:53:28,460 --> 00:53:30,460
 But it's still, it's still a subjective evaluation.

1171
00:53:30,460 --> 00:53:32,460
 So you always have, have kind of differing opinions.

1172
00:53:32,460 --> 00:53:33,460
 Yeah.

1173
00:53:33,460 --> 00:53:34,460
 Yeah.

1174
00:53:34,460 --> 00:53:36,460
 I mean, I, this is actually valuable and so on.

1175
00:53:36,460 --> 00:53:37,460
 Yeah.

1176
00:53:37,460 --> 00:53:38,460
 Like right now.

1177
00:53:38,460 --> 00:53:39,460
 But you, but you decide that by when you go to a shop.

1178
00:53:39,460 --> 00:53:41,460
 With differing opinions on on-chain steps for example.

1179
00:53:41,460 --> 00:53:42,460
 Yes.

1180
00:53:42,460 --> 00:53:43,460
 Yes.

1181
00:53:43,460 --> 00:53:47,460
 But you, you decide this in the same way as whether you're going to buy something, buy a product

1182
00:53:47,460 --> 00:53:48,460
 or service in the market though.

1183
00:53:48,460 --> 00:53:49,460
 Right.

1184
00:53:49,460 --> 00:53:51,460
 So you see straight through whether.

1185
00:53:51,460 --> 00:53:52,460
 Okay.

1186
00:53:52,460 --> 00:53:53,460
 So, all right.

1187
00:53:53,460 --> 00:53:57,460
 I think, I think I, I tried, I really tried to wrap my head around it.

1188
00:53:57,460 --> 00:53:58,460
 I think I understand it better now.

1189
00:53:58,460 --> 00:53:59,460
 So thanks for all that.

1190
00:53:59,460 --> 00:54:01,460
 Let's switch gears completely.

1191
00:54:01,460 --> 00:54:02,460
 Okay.

1192
00:54:02,460 --> 00:54:03,460
 Step one.

1193
00:54:03,460 --> 00:54:07,460
 You have to pull out your phone and tell me where we're going to go because probably there's

1194
00:54:07,460 --> 00:54:08,460
 some other people that already found the cow.

1195
00:54:08,460 --> 00:54:09,460
 Yeah.

1196
00:54:09,460 --> 00:54:10,460
 Let's see.

1197
00:54:10,460 --> 00:54:11,460
 Let's see.

1198
00:54:11,460 --> 00:54:12,460
 And step two is, I don't know.

1199
00:54:12,460 --> 00:54:13,460
 I'm just going to ask you random shit until we.

1200
00:54:13,460 --> 00:54:14,460
 Yeah.

1201
00:54:14,460 --> 00:54:15,460
 Until we get there.

1202
00:54:15,460 --> 00:54:17,460
 Until we find something to eat.

1203
00:54:17,460 --> 00:54:19,460
 That's the plan.

1204
00:54:19,460 --> 00:54:20,460
 And take a dime.

1205
00:54:20,460 --> 00:54:21,460
 Don't worry.

1206
00:54:21,460 --> 00:54:22,460
 It's like the three listeners.

1207
00:54:22,460 --> 00:54:25,460
 Like most people drop off after five seconds of noise.

1208
00:54:25,460 --> 00:54:29,460
 So the one and a half listeners that are still listening won't mind.

1209
00:54:29,460 --> 00:54:34,460
 Okay.

1210
00:54:34,460 --> 00:54:35,460
 I just messaged the group.

1211
00:54:35,460 --> 00:54:36,460
 Let's see what happens.

1212
00:54:36,460 --> 00:54:37,460
 Let's see.

1213
00:54:37,460 --> 00:54:39,460
 I'll just walk into the whatever center.

1214
00:54:39,460 --> 00:54:40,460
 I think.

1215
00:54:40,460 --> 00:54:43,460
 And it's just going to be a different kind of conversation.

1216
00:54:43,460 --> 00:54:44,460
 I have no idea what I'm going to ask you.

1217
00:54:44,460 --> 00:54:45,460
 Maybe.

1218
00:54:45,460 --> 00:54:46,460
 I don't know.

1219
00:54:46,460 --> 00:54:47,460
 Like how have you been.

1220
00:54:47,460 --> 00:54:50,460
 How have you been cooking on the agent side and those kind of things?

1221
00:54:50,460 --> 00:54:53,460
 Because you told me you want to return to Nostra Rocket and kind of build it out

1222
00:54:53,460 --> 00:54:54,460
 some more.

1223
00:54:54,460 --> 00:54:55,460
 Yeah.

1224
00:54:55,460 --> 00:54:57,460
 So how would you do it from the kind of your.

1225
00:54:57,460 --> 00:54:58,460
 I'm going to build a.

1226
00:54:58,460 --> 00:54:59,460
 Def Ops.

1227
00:54:59,460 --> 00:55:00,460
 Yes.

1228
00:55:00,460 --> 00:55:01,460
 So.

1229
00:55:01,460 --> 00:55:02,460
 Okay.

1230
00:55:02,460 --> 00:55:03,460
 Let's go even more abstract.

1231
00:55:03,460 --> 00:55:04,460
 All right.

1232
00:55:04,460 --> 00:55:06,460
 I'm going to build a.

1233
00:55:06,460 --> 00:55:07,460
 Last 45 minutes.

1234
00:55:07,460 --> 00:55:09,460
 We're in the abstract enough.

1235
00:55:09,460 --> 00:55:10,460
 Yeah.

1236
00:55:10,460 --> 00:55:11,460
 Let's go.

1237
00:55:11,460 --> 00:55:13,460
 I'm going to build a new kind one client.

1238
00:55:13,460 --> 00:55:14,460
 Okay.

1239
00:55:14,460 --> 00:55:15,460
 And I've got some ideas about that.

1240
00:55:15,460 --> 00:55:17,460
 But I won't go into all of it.

1241
00:55:17,460 --> 00:55:19,460
 But humble horse.

1242
00:55:19,460 --> 00:55:21,460
 The humble horse client is going to be.

1243
00:55:21,460 --> 00:55:23,460
 It's going to be coming back.

1244
00:55:23,460 --> 00:55:24,460
 Okay.

1245
00:55:24,460 --> 00:55:25,460
 And.

1246
00:55:25,460 --> 00:55:29,460
 And then I'm going to build the rocket system into that.

1247
00:55:29,460 --> 00:55:30,460
 Okay.

1248
00:55:30,460 --> 00:55:33,460
 We should actually probably go this way.

1249
00:55:33,460 --> 00:55:34,460
 Thereabouts.

1250
00:55:34,460 --> 00:55:35,460
 Oh yeah.

1251
00:55:35,460 --> 00:55:36,460
 That's where.

1252
00:55:36,460 --> 00:55:37,460
 Yeah.

1253
00:55:37,460 --> 00:55:38,460
 That's the right direction.

1254
00:55:38,460 --> 00:55:39,460
 Okay.

1255
00:55:39,460 --> 00:55:42,460
 So you're going to build a new client and you're going to build Nostra Rocket into this new

1256
00:55:42,460 --> 00:55:43,460
 client.

1257
00:55:43,460 --> 00:55:44,460
 So.

1258
00:55:44,460 --> 00:55:45,460
 Because.

1259
00:55:45,460 --> 00:55:46,460
 Because the value.

1260
00:55:46,460 --> 00:55:47,460
 I think one.

1261
00:55:47,460 --> 00:55:53,460
 One key issue with getting this to actually work is that it can't be built for the sake

1262
00:55:53,460 --> 00:55:56,460
 of building it and then try and get other people to use it.

1263
00:55:56,460 --> 00:55:59,460
 I need to build it for a product that I'm making.

1264
00:55:59,460 --> 00:56:00,460
 Okay.

1265
00:56:00,460 --> 00:56:01,460
 And build it around that.

1266
00:56:01,460 --> 00:56:04,460
 And then I'll run into the correct problems that I need to solve.

1267
00:56:04,460 --> 00:56:05,460
 Okay.

1268
00:56:05,460 --> 00:56:06,460
 For the next step.

1269
00:56:06,460 --> 00:56:07,460
 Right.

1270
00:56:07,460 --> 00:56:08,460
 Because.

1271
00:56:08,460 --> 00:56:09,460
 It needs to be.

1272
00:56:09,460 --> 00:56:10,460
 It needs to be.

1273
00:56:10,460 --> 00:56:11,460
 Advised by.

1274
00:56:11,460 --> 00:56:13,460
 Running up into the real world.

1275
00:56:13,460 --> 00:56:14,460
 Okay.

1276
00:56:14,460 --> 00:56:15,460
 So.

1277
00:56:15,460 --> 00:56:16,460
 You want to actually bring it to market.

1278
00:56:16,460 --> 00:56:17,460
 And then see what happens.

1279
00:56:17,460 --> 00:56:18,460
 Yeah.

1280
00:56:18,460 --> 00:56:19,460
 Yeah.

1281
00:56:19,460 --> 00:56:21,460
 So I'm building a kind one client to do that.

1282
00:56:21,460 --> 00:56:22,460
 And.

1283
00:56:22,460 --> 00:56:23,460
 And.

1284
00:56:23,460 --> 00:56:26,460
 On the.

1285
00:56:26,460 --> 00:56:27,460
 On the.

1286
00:56:27,460 --> 00:56:28,460
 On the dev.

1287
00:56:28,460 --> 00:56:29,460
 On the development side.

1288
00:56:29,460 --> 00:56:30,460
 Uh.

1289
00:56:30,460 --> 00:56:31,460
 Uh.

1290
00:56:31,460 --> 00:56:32,460
 I've been working on an agent harness.

1291
00:56:32,460 --> 00:56:34,460
 Specific to that application.

1292
00:56:34,460 --> 00:56:35,460
 So an application specific agent harness.

1293
00:56:35,460 --> 00:56:36,460
 Okay.

1294
00:56:36,460 --> 00:56:37,460
 Interesting.

1295
00:56:37,460 --> 00:56:38,460
 So that.

1296
00:56:38,460 --> 00:56:39,460
 It's very easy.

1297
00:56:39,460 --> 00:56:40,460
 Uh.

1298
00:56:40,460 --> 00:56:41,460
 I'm stuck.

1299
00:56:41,460 --> 00:56:42,460
 Well.

1300
00:56:42,460 --> 00:56:43,460
 I'm.

1301
00:56:43,460 --> 00:56:44,460
 I've.

1302
00:56:44,460 --> 00:56:45,460
 I've been playing with like pie.

1303
00:56:45,460 --> 00:56:46,460
 And.

1304
00:56:46,460 --> 00:56:47,460
 A few other harnesses.

1305
00:56:47,460 --> 00:56:48,460
 But.

1306
00:56:48,460 --> 00:56:48,460
 Um.

1307
00:56:48,460 --> 00:56:50,460
 I think the real.

1308
00:56:50,460 --> 00:56:51,460
 Value.

1309
00:56:51,460 --> 00:56:52,460
 The real.

1310
00:56:52,460 --> 00:56:54,460
 Sort of thing to do next is.

1311
00:56:54,460 --> 00:56:55,460
 Um.

1312
00:56:55,460 --> 00:56:56,460
 In how you.

1313
00:56:56,460 --> 00:56:57,460
 Uh.

1314
00:56:57,460 --> 00:56:58,460
 Uh.

1315
00:56:58,460 --> 00:56:59,460
 Use.

1316
00:56:59,460 --> 00:57:01,460
 Basically like a genetic algorithm approach.

1317
00:57:01,460 --> 00:57:03,460
 To solving problems.

1318
00:57:03,460 --> 00:57:04,460
 And.

1319
00:57:04,460 --> 00:57:05,460
 Gate that.

1320
00:57:05,460 --> 00:57:06,460
 By.

1321
00:57:06,460 --> 00:57:07,460
 Uh.

1322
00:57:07,460 --> 00:57:08,460
 And how you gate that.

1323
00:57:08,460 --> 00:57:09,460
 Right.

1324
00:57:09,460 --> 00:57:10,460
 So like.

1325
00:57:10,460 --> 00:57:11,460
 Um.

1326
00:57:11,460 --> 00:57:12,460
 Tests.

1327
00:57:12,460 --> 00:57:13,460
 And whatever.

1328
00:57:13,460 --> 00:57:14,460
 Right.

1329
00:57:14,460 --> 00:57:15,460
 Okay.

1330
00:57:15,460 --> 00:57:16,460
 But.

1331
00:57:16,460 --> 00:57:17,460
 Going beyond.

1332
00:57:17,460 --> 00:57:18,460
 Similar to.

1333
00:57:18,460 --> 00:57:19,460
 Like.

1334
00:57:19,460 --> 00:57:20,460
 The genetic approach.

1335
00:57:20,460 --> 00:57:21,460
 Is different from.

1336
00:57:21,460 --> 00:57:22,460
 Fast testing.

1337
00:57:22,460 --> 00:57:23,460
 For example.

1338
00:57:23,460 --> 00:57:24,460
 Yeah.

1339
00:57:24,460 --> 00:57:25,460
 So you want to.

1340
00:57:25,460 --> 00:57:26,460
 Evolve.

1341
00:57:26,460 --> 00:57:27,460
 Your.

1342
00:57:27,460 --> 00:57:28,460
 Solutions.

1343
00:57:28,460 --> 00:57:29,460
 Yeah.

1344
00:57:29,460 --> 00:57:30,460
 And.

1345
00:57:30,460 --> 00:57:31,460
 I think if we can.

1346
00:57:31,460 --> 00:57:32,460
 If we can figure out.

1347
00:57:32,460 --> 00:57:33,460
 How to evolve.

1348
00:57:33,460 --> 00:57:34,460
 Things.

1349
00:57:34,460 --> 00:57:35,460
 Rather than.

1350
00:57:35,460 --> 00:57:36,460
 Explicitly.

1351
00:57:36,460 --> 00:57:37,460
 Define them.

1352
00:57:37,460 --> 00:57:38,460
 Up front.

1353
00:57:38,460 --> 00:57:39,460
 I think that's when.

1354
00:57:39,460 --> 00:57:40,460
 We can really unlock something.

1355
00:57:40,460 --> 00:57:41,460
 Next level.

1356
00:57:41,460 --> 00:57:42,460
 That we haven't seen yet.

1357
00:57:42,460 --> 00:57:43,460
 So.

1358
00:57:43,460 --> 00:57:44,460
 Things.

1359
00:57:44,460 --> 00:57:45,460
 That's with.

1360
00:57:45,460 --> 00:57:46,460
 The traditional way.

1361
00:57:46,460 --> 00:57:47,460
 Of doing it.

1362
00:57:47,460 --> 00:57:48,460
 Is with tests.

1363
00:57:48,460 --> 00:57:49,460
 But I think also.

1364
00:57:49,460 --> 00:57:50,460
 We can use formal methods.

1365
00:57:50,460 --> 00:57:51,460
 Um.

1366
00:57:51,460 --> 00:57:52,460
 Have you heard of something.

1367
00:57:52,460 --> 00:57:53,460
 Called TLA plus.

1368
00:57:53,460 --> 00:57:54,460
 TLA plus.

1369
00:57:54,460 --> 00:57:55,460
 It's.

1370
00:57:55,460 --> 00:57:56,460
 Created by.

1371
00:57:56,460 --> 00:57:57,460
 I'm not sure.

1372
00:57:57,460 --> 00:57:58,460
 It's a.

1373
00:57:58,460 --> 00:58:00,460
 It's a thing that.

1374
00:58:00,460 --> 00:58:01,460
 You can use to model.

1375
00:58:01,460 --> 00:58:02,460
 A state machine.

1376
00:58:02,460 --> 00:58:03,460
 To verify that.

1377
00:58:03,460 --> 00:58:04,460
 It doesn't go into any.

1378
00:58:04,460 --> 00:58:05,460
 States that.

1379
00:58:05,460 --> 00:58:06,460
 Unexpected.

1380
00:58:06,460 --> 00:58:07,460
 My formal specification.

1381
00:58:07,460 --> 00:58:08,460
 Training is like.

1382
00:58:08,460 --> 00:58:09,460
 15 years ago.

1383
00:58:09,460 --> 00:58:10,460
 Or so.

1384
00:58:10,460 --> 00:58:11,460
 Okay.

1385
00:58:11,460 --> 00:58:12,460
 So I know a little bit.

1386
00:58:12,460 --> 00:58:13,460
 About these things.

1387
00:58:13,460 --> 00:58:14,460
 I'm.

1388
00:58:14,460 --> 00:58:15,460
 I'm not up to date.

1389
00:58:15,460 --> 00:58:16,460
 With kind of.

1390
00:58:16,460 --> 00:58:17,460
 The state of the art.

1391
00:58:17,460 --> 00:58:18,460
 That's okay.

1392
00:58:18,460 --> 00:58:19,460
 It's.

1393
00:58:19,460 --> 00:58:20,460
 It's basically like.

1394
00:58:20,460 --> 00:58:21,460
 It's basically like.

1395
00:58:21,460 --> 00:58:22,460
 Validating that.

1396
00:58:22,460 --> 00:58:23,460
 Um.

1397
00:58:23,460 --> 00:58:24,460
 The code is.

1398
00:58:24,460 --> 00:58:25,460
 Uh.

1399
00:58:25,460 --> 00:58:26,460
 The code.

1400
00:58:26,460 --> 00:58:27,460
 Accurately.

1401
00:58:27,460 --> 00:58:28,460
 Accurately.

1402
00:58:28,460 --> 00:58:29,460
 Yeah.

1403
00:58:29,460 --> 00:58:30,460
 It actually does.

1404
00:58:30,460 --> 00:58:31,460
 What it.

1405
00:58:31,460 --> 00:58:32,460
 What the specs.

1406
00:58:32,460 --> 00:58:33,460
 Yeah.

1407
00:58:33,460 --> 00:58:34,460
 Yeah.

1408
00:58:34,460 --> 00:58:35,460
 Yeah.

1409
00:58:35,460 --> 00:58:36,460
 And so like.

1410
00:58:36,460 --> 00:58:37,460
 All those ideas are.

1411
00:58:37,460 --> 00:58:38,460
 Yeah.

1412
00:58:38,460 --> 00:58:39,460
 So I think if we.

1413
00:58:39,460 --> 00:58:40,460
 If we use that.

1414
00:58:40,460 --> 00:58:41,460
 As the gate.

1415
00:58:41,460 --> 00:58:42,460
 For.

1416
00:58:42,460 --> 00:58:42,460
 So.

1417
00:58:42,460 --> 00:58:43,460
 What you're trying to say.

1418
00:58:43,460 --> 00:58:44,460
 How so.

1419
00:58:44,460 --> 00:58:45,460
 Like.

1420
00:58:45,460 --> 00:58:46,460
 Well.

1421
00:58:46,460 --> 00:58:47,460
 Because I was thinking.

1422
00:58:47,460 --> 00:58:48,460
 If you.

1423
00:58:48,460 --> 00:58:49,460
 That the simple rules.

1424
00:58:49,460 --> 00:58:50,460
 You described.

1425
00:58:50,460 --> 00:58:51,460
 Yeah.

1426
00:58:51,460 --> 00:58:52,460
 Should obviously.

1427
00:58:52,460 --> 00:58:53,460
 Be kind of verifiable.

1428
00:58:53,460 --> 00:58:54,460
 And those kind of things.

1429
00:58:54,460 --> 00:58:55,460
 But for the harness.

1430
00:58:55,460 --> 00:58:56,460
 I don't.

1431
00:58:56,460 --> 00:58:57,460
 I don't get it.

1432
00:58:57,460 --> 00:58:58,460
 You're a formal specification.

1433
00:58:58,460 --> 00:58:59,460
 For your harness system.

1434
00:58:59,460 --> 00:59:00,460
 Um.

1435
00:59:00,460 --> 00:59:01,460
 So that you.

1436
00:59:01,460 --> 00:59:02,460
 Uh.

1437
00:59:02,460 --> 00:59:03,460
 Don't break things.

1438
00:59:03,460 --> 00:59:04,460
 That exist already.

1439
00:59:04,460 --> 00:59:05,460
 Essentially.

1440
00:59:05,460 --> 00:59:06,460
 Is this a more advanced.

1441
00:59:06,460 --> 00:59:07,460
 A more.

1442
00:59:07,460 --> 00:59:08,460
 Reliable way.

1443
00:59:08,460 --> 00:59:09,460
 Of doing testing.

1444
00:59:09,460 --> 00:59:10,460
 Okay.

1445
00:59:10,460 --> 00:59:11,460
 If you're building something.

1446
00:59:11,460 --> 00:59:12,460
 For.

1447
00:59:12,460 --> 00:59:13,460
 For a NOSTA client.

1448
00:59:13,460 --> 00:59:14,460
 It's not necessary.

1449
00:59:14,460 --> 00:59:15,460
 But I was just using it.

1450
00:59:15,460 --> 00:59:16,460
 As an example.

1451
00:59:16,460 --> 00:59:17,460
 Uh.

1452
00:59:17,460 --> 00:59:18,460
 For a NOSTA client.

1453
00:59:18,460 --> 00:59:19,460
 You just need tests.

1454
00:59:19,460 --> 00:59:20,460
 It's.

1455
00:59:20,460 --> 00:59:21,460
 That's enough.

1456
00:59:21,460 --> 00:59:22,460
 I think.

1457
00:59:22,460 --> 00:59:23,460
 Okay.

1458
00:59:23,460 --> 00:59:24,460
 As long as the testing.

1459
00:59:24,460 --> 00:59:25,460
 Is really good.

1460
00:59:25,460 --> 00:59:26,460
 Uh.

1461
00:59:26,460 --> 00:59:27,460
 So basically.

1462
00:59:27,460 --> 00:59:28,460
 What I want to get.

1463
00:59:28,460 --> 00:59:29,460
 What I want to end up with.

1464
00:59:29,460 --> 00:59:30,460
 Is.

1465
00:59:30,460 --> 00:59:31,460
 A harness.

1466
00:59:31,460 --> 00:59:32,460
 That makes it very easy.

1467
00:59:32,460 --> 00:59:33,460
 For.

1468
00:59:33,460 --> 00:59:34,460
 Other people.

1469
00:59:34,460 --> 00:59:35,460
 To contribute.

1470
00:59:35,460 --> 00:59:36,460
 To the project.

1471
00:59:36,460 --> 00:59:37,460
 So they don't have to adapt.

1472
00:59:37,460 --> 00:59:38,460
 They don't have to spin up.

1473
00:59:38,460 --> 00:59:39,460
 Their own harness.

1474
00:59:39,460 --> 00:59:40,460
 And figure out.

1475
00:59:40,460 --> 00:59:41,460
 How to.

1476
00:59:41,460 --> 00:59:42,460
 Build.

1477
00:59:42,460 --> 00:59:43,460
 How to add features.

1478
00:59:43,460 --> 00:59:44,460
 Or whatever.

1479
00:59:44,460 --> 00:59:45,460
 To this project.

1480
00:59:45,460 --> 00:59:46,460
 They just use.

1481
00:59:46,460 --> 00:59:47,460
 The existing harness.

1482
00:59:47,460 --> 00:59:48,460
 Um.

1483
00:59:48,460 --> 00:59:49,460
 And that has.

1484
00:59:49,460 --> 00:59:50,460
 Everything coded in there.

1485
00:59:50,460 --> 00:59:51,460
 Already.

1486
00:59:51,460 --> 00:59:52,460
 Has.

1487
00:59:52,460 --> 00:59:53,460
 So this is optimized.

1488
00:59:53,460 --> 00:59:54,460
 For this specific.

1489
00:59:54,460 --> 00:59:55,460
 Stack.

1490
00:59:55,460 --> 00:59:56,460
 And this specific.

1491
00:59:56,460 --> 00:59:57,460
 Application.

1492
00:59:57,460 --> 00:59:58,460
 Um.

1493
00:59:58,460 --> 00:59:59,460
 I mean.

1494
00:59:59,460 --> 01:00:00,460
 You're not alone.

1495
01:00:00,460 --> 01:00:01,460
 Lots of people.

1496
01:00:01,460 --> 01:00:02,460
 Are building out.

1497
01:00:02,460 --> 01:00:03,460
 Specific.

1498
01:00:03,460 --> 01:00:04,460
 Specific stacks.

1499
01:00:04,460 --> 01:00:05,460
 And specific harnesses.

1500
01:00:05,460 --> 01:00:06,460
 And agent systems.

1501
01:00:06,460 --> 01:00:07,460
 For their.

1502
01:00:07,460 --> 01:00:08,460
 For their use case.

1503
01:00:08,460 --> 01:00:09,460
 Yeah.

1504
01:00:09,460 --> 01:00:10,460
 So.

1505
01:00:10,460 --> 01:00:11,460
 But this is.

1506
01:00:11,460 --> 01:00:12,460
 I want it.

1507
01:00:12,460 --> 01:00:13,460
 Specifically.

1508
01:00:13,460 --> 01:00:14,460
 For one app.

1509
01:00:14,460 --> 01:00:15,460
 Okay.

1510
01:00:15,460 --> 01:00:16,460
 To develop one particular app.

1511
01:00:16,460 --> 01:00:17,460
 Right.

1512
01:00:17,460 --> 01:00:18,460
 So like.

1513
01:00:18,460 --> 01:00:19,460
 Okay.

1514
01:00:19,460 --> 01:00:20,460
 Which is a NOSTA client.

1515
01:00:20,460 --> 01:00:21,460
 Okay.

1516
01:00:21,460 --> 01:00:21,460
 Yeah.

1517
01:00:21,460 --> 01:00:22,460
 Um.

1518
01:00:22,460 --> 01:00:23,460
 And users can add.

1519
01:00:23,460 --> 01:00:24,460
 Feedback.

1520
01:00:24,460 --> 01:00:25,460
 Or report problems.

1521
01:00:25,460 --> 01:00:26,460
 Or whatever.

1522
01:00:26,460 --> 01:00:27,460
 And that just goes into.

1523
01:00:27,460 --> 01:00:28,460
 Into the problem tree.

1524
01:00:28,460 --> 01:00:29,460
 And then.

1525
01:00:29,460 --> 01:00:30,460
 Anyone can solve those problems.

1526
01:00:30,460 --> 01:00:31,460
 Okay.

1527
01:00:31,460 --> 01:00:32,460
 And then they get.

1528
01:00:32,460 --> 01:00:33,460
 I feel like I have a.

1529
01:00:33,460 --> 01:00:34,460
 Very left side of the buck.

1530
01:00:34,460 --> 01:00:35,460
 Or version of that.

1531
01:00:35,460 --> 01:00:36,460
 In the sense that I have.

1532
01:00:36,460 --> 01:00:37,460
 Uh.

1533
01:00:37,460 --> 01:00:39,460
 For all my little side projects.

1534
01:00:39,460 --> 01:00:40,460
 I have like.

1535
01:00:40,460 --> 01:00:41,460
 One.

1536
01:00:41,460 --> 01:00:42,460
 One agent.

1537
01:00:42,460 --> 01:00:43,460
 Per project.

1538
01:00:43,460 --> 01:00:44,460
 I showed you this before.

1539
01:00:44,460 --> 01:00:45,460
 Very briefly.

1540
01:00:45,460 --> 01:00:47,200
 You know, like I can DM no solutions.

1541
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:47,920
 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1542
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,800
 And say like, you know, transcribe this episode or change the title or whatever.

1543
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:58,320
 And I have some others where it's actually like every night cron jobs run that just go through open GitHub issues.

1544
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:02,040
 And if it's easy enough, then it just packs it and creates a PR for it.

1545
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:02,280
 Yep.

1546
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:06,440
 And then I just, I, as the human, look over the PR and merge.

1547
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:09,400
 So similar idea in some sense, I think, right?

1548
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:09,820
 Yeah, yeah.

1549
01:01:09,820 --> 01:01:16,860
 Let's just make it very easy for other people to contribute, which I use the regular GitHub development flow, basically.

1550
01:01:16,860 --> 01:01:21,060
 So if someone created an issue, I won't even have to fix it.

1551
01:01:21,060 --> 01:01:23,300
 Like, it will be picked up automatically and so on.

1552
01:01:23,300 --> 01:01:24,920
 I just do the review.

1553
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,280
 So in this situation, you would get all the merits for the tokens you burned to do this.

1554
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:29,860
 Okay, yeah.

1555
01:01:29,860 --> 01:01:32,140
 But if someone else jumps in, they can get it.

1556
01:01:32,140 --> 01:01:32,740
 All right.

1557
01:01:32,740 --> 01:01:34,800
 How are we looking on the cow front?

1558
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:36,860
 You know where we are?

1559
01:01:36,860 --> 01:01:37,440
 Where are we going?

1560
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:37,900
 Let's see.

1561
01:01:37,900 --> 01:01:38,080
 Or no?

1562
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:39,760
 No one's replied.

1563
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:41,800
 Yeah, we're, we're out cold.

1564
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:46,140
 It was seven minutes, I sent it to the message seven minutes ago.

1565
01:01:46,140 --> 01:01:48,840
 We'll have to, we'll have to find our own place.

1566
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:49,520
 No, I don't know.

1567
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:54,700
 Someone will reply.

1568
01:01:54,700 --> 01:01:55,900
 We'll, we'll make it.

1569
01:01:55,900 --> 01:01:56,640
 We'll not starve.

1570
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:57,380
 We'll not starve.

1571
01:01:57,380 --> 01:01:58,340
 But I'm proper hungry.

1572
01:01:58,340 --> 01:01:58,880
 Okay.

1573
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,900
 I'm proper hungry and close to out of steam.

1574
01:02:00,900 --> 01:02:01,560
 All right.

1575
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:02,500
 Let's go find food.

1576
01:02:02,500 --> 01:02:03,460
 So.

1577
01:02:03,460 --> 01:02:06,820
 I don't want to be around a hungry Gigi.

1578
01:02:06,820 --> 01:02:07,880
 No, no, that's fine.

1579
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:08,300
 That's fine.

1580
01:02:08,300 --> 01:02:09,800
 I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not.

1581
01:02:09,820 --> 01:02:12,560
 I'm not as, as, as hangry as I, as I used to be.

1582
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:13,060
 Oh, okay.

1583
01:02:13,060 --> 01:02:13,940
 That's an improvement then.

1584
01:02:13,940 --> 01:02:14,820
 Yeah, it is.

1585
01:02:14,820 --> 01:02:15,220
 It is.

1586
01:02:15,220 --> 01:02:15,260
 It is.

1587
01:02:15,260 --> 01:02:15,540
 It is.

1588
01:02:15,540 --> 01:02:16,320
 I grew up a bit.

1589
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:21,000
 I try at least.

1590
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:22,760
 But how can people help?

1591
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,700
 Like if you, if you want to build this out and make this a thing.

1592
01:02:25,700 --> 01:02:26,220
 Yeah.

1593
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:31,600
 Um, like what would be step one, like read the book you mentioned or like what, what is something

1594
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:37,340
 actionable, what is something actionable that people can do to, to help you out and make

1595
01:02:37,340 --> 01:02:38,260
 this vision a reality?

1596
01:02:38,260 --> 01:02:41,900
 Um, just ask me questions about it.

1597
01:02:41,900 --> 01:02:42,640
 On Noster?

1598
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:43,320
 On Noster, yeah.

1599
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:43,760
 All right.

1600
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:46,080
 That'll get me thinking about things that I haven't thought about yet.

1601
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:46,480
 Okay.

1602
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:47,480
 Okay.

1603
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:48,040
 Okay.

1604
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:49,100
 So just reach out to you.

1605
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:49,720
 They can look at it.

1606
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:50,240
 Pick your brain.

1607
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:50,600
 Yeah.

1608
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:55,380
 If, if, if, if someone was listening and everything made perfect, perfect sense, just DM you.

1609
01:02:55,380 --> 01:02:57,020
 Or if you think I'm an idiot, tell me why.

1610
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:02,800
 No, I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around it, but I think I'm too, I'm too wedded

1611
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:04,160
 to the things I know.

1612
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:09,460
 I'm too wedded to the traditional structures of like, this is how a startup works.

1613
01:03:09,460 --> 01:03:12,560
 This is how, uh, like the things you mentioned, this is how the military works.

1614
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:14,140
 This is how a regular organization works.

1615
01:03:14,140 --> 01:03:16,880
 This is how a regular cap table comes together, whatever.

1616
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,840
 This is how a board of directors works and they have all these roles and so on.

1617
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:21,180
 Yeah.

1618
01:03:21,180 --> 01:03:26,820
 And so what I'm kind of, to me, it's, and I think you would say this is a feature, not

1619
01:03:26,820 --> 01:03:27,180
 a bug.

1620
01:03:27,780 --> 01:03:34,980
 Um, I, I would guess to me, it's just, um, too undefined, like not strongly defined

1621
01:03:34,980 --> 01:03:37,840
 enough, but I think that's exactly what you want to fight against.

1622
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:39,080
 It's actually very clearly defined.

1623
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:43,320
 This is much, uh, um, there's the rules are much simpler because we, yeah, yeah, that's

1624
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:47,500
 the, the, you have the merit points and the merit leads to shares basically.

1625
01:03:47,500 --> 01:03:51,260
 And so I do understand this in like an open source system context.

1626
01:03:51,260 --> 01:03:54,960
 I think it gets very hairy, very quickly once you move out of that.

1627
01:03:54,960 --> 01:04:00,860
 And I still think that the, uh, what has married and what hasn't isn't an easy answer and how

1628
01:04:00,860 --> 01:04:02,160
 to measure married is also not easy.

1629
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:08,000
 The, the, the person who produces the work, but then, but then you, but then you're back

1630
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:10,560
 to, again, the, the salary negotiation.

1631
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:11,280
 Yeah.

1632
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:11,400
 Yeah.

1633
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:11,820
 But that's fine.

1634
01:04:11,820 --> 01:04:12,180
 Yeah.

1635
01:04:12,180 --> 01:04:14,880
 This is how, and then you have salary negotiation tactics.

1636
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,240
 And so, so there's always people that are overpaid and there's people that are underpaid.

1637
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:21,700
 Everyone knows this in every company.

1638
01:04:21,700 --> 01:04:26,200
 Like there's always someone who, who pulls a lot of weight and is very shy and humble.

1639
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:28,840
 And there's always other people that just oversell themselves.

1640
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,440
 And it's just our great talkers and have like a big personality and don't do shit.

1641
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:34,960
 And they just, they're by definition completely.

1642
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:39,160
 But this, this, but this collapses that into what problem did you solve?

1643
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:46,580
 So in some sense, it's a shorter feedback loop and a closer feedback loop in some sense.

1644
01:04:46,780 --> 01:04:51,920
 I think fuckery gets detected early quickly when you see, I mean, open to, to, to, to, to be

1645
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:54,820
 fair, like open source projects are extremely merit-based.

1646
01:04:54,820 --> 01:04:59,740
 So, so you have that going for you in your line of argumentation, basically, where it's,

1647
01:04:59,740 --> 01:05:04,480
 it's very hard to bullshit your way through open source usually.

1648
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:09,840
 And just because everything, um, transparent.

1649
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:10,160
 Yeah.

1650
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,320
 And also like you can see what people are doing.

1651
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:12,660
 Yeah.

1652
01:05:12,740 --> 01:05:17,380
 And there's also a bunch of people who have the same, a similar level of expertise or

1653
01:05:17,380 --> 01:05:17,820
 backgrounds.

1654
01:05:17,820 --> 01:05:20,260
 Yeah, yeah, you, you, you, you, you're exactly.

1655
01:05:20,260 --> 01:05:24,140
 It's not, it's not an HR person that checks you, uh, uh, checks you're married, but it's

1656
01:05:24,140 --> 01:05:25,700
 your peers that check you're married basically.

1657
01:05:25,700 --> 01:05:26,460
 Yeah, exactly.

1658
01:05:26,460 --> 01:05:26,880
 Yes.

1659
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:27,380
 Peers.

1660
01:05:27,380 --> 01:05:27,740
 Yeah.

1661
01:05:27,740 --> 01:05:27,980
 Yeah.

1662
01:05:27,980 --> 01:05:30,440
 Let's end on that because I'm super cooked.

1663
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:31,340
 I'm super hungry.

1664
01:05:31,340 --> 01:05:32,180
 I always end on a hug.

1665
01:05:32,180 --> 01:05:38,300
 Thanks for doing that and, and indulging me and yeah, we'll see what people think.

1666
01:05:38,300 --> 01:05:41,400
 I think it's, it's more clear for me now.

1667
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:42,240
 What do you want to build?

1668
01:05:42,740 --> 01:05:47,860
 Um, and yeah, I hope you'll get a lot of the M's we'll see you'll get a lot of GM's at

1669
01:05:47,860 --> 01:05:48,560
 least GM's.

1670
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:50,280
 Yeah, we'll get, we'll get a lot of GM's.

1671
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:51,120
 That's what's going to happen.