Okay, test test one two. Does it work? I'm not sure if I still know how to do it. No, it looks like it's working. Great. Oh yeah, let's do that. Everyone loves this nip.
I'm gonna keep everything. If it works, I'm gonna keep everything in as always. The whole setup.
Yeah, if the human needs to intervene, the system is broke.
And it's usual with our laughter. Yeah. No, like my whole pipeline is still not done. I didn't touch anything for the last, I don't know, two months now or so.
So, so I will still have to manually. Yeah, like, yeah, like, like, like, the cramage and I am, I have to manually call FFMPEG normalize on the MP3 file.
And once you do it by hand, before you open the file, the line of filing beam. I mean, that's what I used to do with Audacity, basically. It's like, it's everything's terrible.
No, but I just didn't sit down and wipe code to the last, like, the last, the last mile of the, of the pipeline. The point would be that the file that comes out of it goes through FFMPEG normalize and then uploads itself to blossom and just drafts everything up and so on.
Or just post it out immediately, I don't know. But anyway, I got sidetracked by doing the, the pop cast, I think, like, the generating a podcast feed from Henry, the, the RSS.
Noster, kind of one, basically, abusing all that. And it turns out I still use it almost every day because I put a couple of N pubs in, like, all the people that post videos, you know, like, Odell posts videos on Noster and
others and, like, some others and so on. And so I see it in my podcast feed and then I can just listen to the audio without having to open a Noster client. It's super useful to me. So anyway, it was good for something.
It has users. It has users. But enough about my, my, my adventures. What have you been doing the last two months?
The last two months, I've been getting more and more confused.
Great. Great start. We hate clarity.
Yes, what's the point?
Yeah, what's the point? It's just like, like, it's very boring.
Just join the hallucination. Confuse yourself.
Yeah, no, I've been working more and more and more on, on this 10X system that, that I've been posting the threat about it.
I remember that. I posted a threat. So it's published now. Yes, and it has users.
Really? Yeah.
People that come in with pull requests and destroy stuff.
I had a couple of pull requests. I didn't merge any.
Smart. You're smarter than me. You went too far into the yellow.
Yeah, you should be, one should be very skeptical about merging pull requests of bived stuff.
It will get better. It will get better.
I was, I was using today the, I was checking some stuff out on the, on the goose.
Website, you know, it's block. It's, it's, it's a big company.
I can totally tell that that website is bived coded. Nothing was working.
I started thinking, the internet, it's annoying to use is going to get a lot more annoying.
Everything is going to get worse. Everything is going to be broken.
So you look beautiful, dark mode, light mode, but everything's going to be shit.
But you, you switched from, you, you used RUCO exclusively, right?
And now you added glues into the mix?
Yeah, so, so it's, it's kind of interesting. So the, the whole 10X thing kind of started evolving.
I, I think 10X is no longer an accurate name.
So the two X more effort.
No, no, no, it's like a thousand X is the goal.
But it doesn't, it doesn't roll off the tongue, essentially.
So I'll stick with the name, but, uh, yeah.
So you think you're more productive with the system already?
I think I will be more productive. I am far less productive at the moment.
So the, the whole idea.
So, yeah, I, I changed so many things that I'm probably, uh, yeah, I should, I should explain a more.
Maybe sketch, sketch out what the basic idea is, because I kind of know, but I maybe I also don't.
Yeah, so, so the basic idea is that it will be a system that you use to create stuff.
I mean, obviously I am exclusively focused on software development.
But I, I think the same concept can be used for any kind of other task.
But I'm, I, I'm not even going to try to use it for that.
But the, the, the whole idea is to leverage an agentic system that evolves over time.
So the code snippets was kind of like the first.
So you teach the agents what to do?
I teach the agents. Yeah.
So the, the best case they learn on their own.
Yeah. So the, the whole idea is that I will not ever look at the code.
So what I see is that the elements are incredibly good at producing code that is brutal pace.
So whenever I'm writing code manually, it's almost as if I'm wasting my time.
It's, it's so, so much slower than it's almost wasting my time, right?
So given that premise, the idea is then software development can no longer center around code itself.
So what does it center around?
And I think the, one of the pillars is the context, right?
The, the elements, regardless of the models improving and becoming better and better and better,
they will still have some, just because of physics, they will have some kind of context limitation, right?
That's why we have a specialist engineers, right?
Yeah.
So what I want to manage is what goes into the models to execute on each individual task.
And that's what the system should manage.
So the, the way the, the approach evolved over time.
So I, if you remember, if you recall, I started with the, the code snippets thing.
Yeah.
And I noticed that it was incredibly improvement.
The system would learn to go from something that doesn't work to it works every single time immediately.
And that's very, very much the same idea that Alex Cleason had, right?
Like with the MKStax, he does the same thing where he just has a repository of how to do stuff.
Yes, exactly.
And I actually, because I had not spoken with Cleason about any of these stuff.
So we had a call, I think it was last week, where we kind of synced up.
And I noticed that my approach and his approach, they burst.
So the goal is kind of the same.
The approach is, I think it's polar opposites.
He centered on making, so do you know the different, I didn't know.
Do you know the difference that he has between Stax and MKStax?
No.
It's literally just a project template, right?
Like as we had project templates for however long, where you go to buy a like a twin or template,
and you get like a beautiful styling and shit like that, right?
So Stax is literally just Stax.
It's just templates, published just notes or events.
So, okay.
MKStax is one template.
Oh, sorry.
It's one template, which is the one that he is sharpening, right?
So it is literally this one, I don't know, probably like I think it's a mixture, yes,
or a bite, bite up or whatever.
With a bunch of rules of how to build apps within that framework, right?
So his approach is build something, whatever, build like try to one shot,
whatever, like a GitHub replacement or whatever it might be,
whenever he fails on executing in a single shot on what you wanted to build,
go in and add more and more and more instructions into the mix to fix each marginal error that the system makes.
What does he use as like the underlying master library, if any?
One key he wrote, not free fire, I think it's okay.
Which is the one that he did for use for a deal.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So the way it, the approach that I have is that I want,
so he's not doing multi-agent stuff.
His stuff is literally just a big long of least of mistakes you've made in the past,
and I'm correct at each individual one, is quite similar to the idea of the code snippets.
You wrote this code wrong, this is the right code, never make that mistake again,
and you fix, marginally you fix each individual error.
And his thing is a common line tool, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So my, what I'm thinking,
and kind of the, the, the, the, the, the one that it's all,
it told you before recording is every single individual user interaction,
or user in terms of human intervention is a catastrophic mistake.
Something happened with the system should have done well, and it didn't do.
So every time the user has to intervene,
it's an opportunity to learn something.
It should only, like, like, you should only intervene to kind of steer
and give additional prompts not to fix mistakes.
Not to fix mistakes, but also I, I, I think the LLMs can get,
are already at the point we just don't have the, the, the tooling and the, the thinking around them.
So here's an interesting exercise I did to, to test it.
I gave up us for the latest, uh, on topic, on topic mode.
I gave it the whole nips repo and I told it, I, I coded so that it would go
and it would read every single PR and every single discussion on all the PRs.
What's rejected, what's accepted, why?
And I told it to extrapolate the values of Noster from that.
Yeah.
The report that it wrote is fucking insane.
Yeah.
It went to the cypher punk values and it started speaking about how to think,
not from an implementation perspective or anything like that,
how to think about what is a good nip and what is a buttony,
what is a good protocol and a bad protocol.
I actually asked it, what nips don't fit in these, these values.
And it pointed to the right nips.
I can tell me, nip 29 is kind of weird.
Nip 29's request is demanding from the release that they changed the way they
behave.
It's breaking this and this and this core.
And what's fascinating is that it didn't pull just individual lines.
It didn't source me, okay, I got this line from here.
It really extracted the value.
It got to the essence of it.
So I think that is already possible.
Even enough content.
I mean, that's what the LLAMs are.
Good.
I mean, in some sense, you read all this as well and you came to the same conclusion.
Yeah, exactly.
So there is a long, long time.
And the LLAM can just do it in like a couple of minutes basically in some sense.
Exactly.
It took like an hour.
Yeah.
Anyway, it was like 100 bucks.
Yeah.
It was insanely worth it.
It's still cheaper than hiring someone that reads through everything for one and a half years.
A few people would go and read all that and arrive to those deep conclusions.
That's kind of the awesome thing about it.
Very few people are so obsessive about this stuff, especially the niche stuff.
Like you are or some of the other nasty developers are.
And now you have like an obsessive nerd in your pocket for like a couple bucks basically.
They can't get really, can't get to the heart of any matter as long as the corpus of information is large enough
that the heart of the matter can be extracted in the first place.
Exactly.
And so to me what's interesting is that now that dude, that report is an agent in my system.
Yeah.
It's not looking at code.
Yeah.
It's just understanding the broader picture of the values of the system.
Yeah.
And it can, and this is what, what how Tenix is evolving.
The agents now, they are able to differentiate between what is like a system.
I mean, what is like a simple task like fucking put make this button look nice.
Whatever.
Yeah.
Like a simple task.
And what is a more philosophical task?
Yeah.
So I wrote an agent that is a brick, brick, brick, brick.
Oh, bricky.
Yeah.
So now they have discussions.
My agents have discussions about the philosophy of what they're working on.
And the interesting thing is that.
Me as the human, and any white Lisa Pavke, can participate in the discussion.
Yeah.
It's just notary events.
That's the, that's why I was asking whether MKS access just to CLI so to speak.
Yeah.
Because I think what's interesting about this stuff, you're building out is that everything lifts on NOSTER.
And you can interact on NOSTER directly.
Exactly.
I think that's a super interesting approach where you just, you, you have this multi agent environment.
And they just all post to NOSTER basically.
And if you have to intervene, you don't need to jump back into an IDE or like sit in front of a computer.
Oh, no, absolutely.
To go into a CLI or whatever.
You just, you just use whatever NOSTER client you have to reply to the things and then stuff happens.
And stuff happens.
And what, what, what I find fascinating and the, the, the way I'm thinking about it.
And I, I kind of write to this conclusion today after thinking for a long time.
But what I've noticed is that.
There's a human, right?
At the very top of the pyramid of the hierarchy, there's a human.
And the way we've been approaching, like if you go to cursor or RUCO or anything like that.
It's for the most part a very flat structure.
Where the human comes in and says, work on these, building these blood and blood and blood.
Yeah.
And the way RUCO has it, which when I saw it, I was like, fucking in awe.
I was absolutely mind blowing out.
Now I think that it's quite basic.
It has, by default, this orchestrator mode.
Yeah.
That is directing the work.
But it's just literally just delegating work.
Yeah.
Okay.
Code must be written.
Let's go into the coding agent.
Yeah.
There's a bug.
Let's go into the debugging agent.
You know, yes, it's, it's good.
It's useful.
But it's quite limited actually.
So the approach that I have now is that.
I have, this is just a thesis.
But the approach that I have now is that.
I'm going to have one of my agents be a human replica.
Okay.
Which is the name that I wrote on the diagram.
A human replica, which we look at every single event that I write.
Every single event, every single process.
So you want to assimilate yourself in some sense down the line?
Yes.
So I want this guy to learn to meet me, to meet me.
How you would intervene.
Yeah.
How I would intervene.
Yeah.
And also what you are, what you are kind of.
Taste is in some sense and what your values are because that's what it boils down to with all this.
100%.
And.
How would you build it?
How would you make this decision?
Yeah.
And if we, I mean, I talked with Paul about this, I think it's basically that it comes back to.
You know, we have these role models that are like exemplars of humanity.
And that's where we, it's like, you know, what would Jesus do?
Yeah.
Kind of thing.
Yeah.
It's like, do you have these tricky situations?
There is no right answer.
So you ask yourself, I mean, Verveki talks about this all the time.
That's why you basically try to have an internal dialogue with the sage.
That's where, like, what would Jesus do?
Comes from.
And it all boils down to values.
I mean, that's obviously in the, you know, moral domain and so on and so forth.
Like, it's far removed.
It seems to be far removed from the technical domain.
But in some sense, it is down to that.
Yeah, yeah, because that's what you mentioned before.
It goes through all the nip discussions.
Like, what is the essence of Noster?
And we talked about this a lot in the Southern engineering context.
It's like, what does it mean to build something in the spirit of Bitcoin?
And just like, this phrase alone will tell you something.
What is the one specific language code you can't?
But out of the code, values do emerge.
Absolutely.
And everyone who, you know, like studied Bitcoin for 10 years or something like that,
they know what it means to build something in the spirit of Bitcoin.
And like, a lot of the Noster devs now also, you know, come to their conclusion.
Like, there is a Noster way of doing things.
And it's very hard to point to it.
It's like, no, it's not one single thing.
You know, it's not like this, it's exactly this rule that you have to follow.
And then that's it.
And that's kind of the same thing.
In the same way that I cannot point to this part of your brain.
And say, this is easy.
Yeah, yeah.
The same thing.
What's the spirit of the thing?
But in general, like all the tricky questions, like, what is the right thing to do?
You can never put it in the rule.
And that's why you have to ask yourself, what would Jesus do?
Precisely.
So you have your 10 commandments now for 10x.
Yes.
That's right.
Yes.
And what I've noticed is that I think mistakes.
So if we go back to the pyramid scheme, you go back to the pyramid, the human at the top.
In some sense, the values should be at the top.
That's where they emerge from.
And then at the very bottom, the leaf of the tree is the things that are actually executing things.
Touching coal or doing whatever it might be.
All the meaning and value of think boys would agree with that, by the way.
Perfect.
Peterson and Verveki would agree with that in some sense.
The values should be on top.
And if there is some mistake, the mistake will tend to happen more often towards the end, towards the leaf.
Like there is a wrong approach, a wrong implementation, an error of some kind.
It will tend to happen towards the leaf.
Because something that's lost in translation.
Exactly.
So any type of mistake that must be corrected is analyzed from the system.
And so here's the other, yeah, there's like a few technical but important aspects to what I'm working on.
Is each agent has...
It's just done on me that that's an unavoidable problem.
Is it what?
It's an unavoidable problem, I think.
Which one?
Something will always get lost in translation, just because of the generalist versus specialist distinction.
Yes.
You will never be able to perfectly explain to a specialist why he should do this thing.
And he will, a specialist will never figure it out on his own.
Because if he would be able to figure it out on his own, he would be a generalist.
And those two things that are in contradiction with each other.
So how are you going to solve this?
So the way I approximate a solution is that lessons will bubble up.
So you have both top-down and bottom-up tensions?
So the...
You have top-down constraints and bottom-up emergence.
That's basically a very waky line.
Yes, that's absolutely the approach.
There might be a mistake that happens towards the execution layer towards the leaf of the tree.
That includes a broader lesson about the thing that can be learned from a more generalist.
So the way I'm thinking is that I'll have my human replica agent.
And that one agent will be kind of subdivided into different fields.
Into like a philosophical field, into a technical field.
How do you do the communication up and down?
It's all not sir.
And there is a very good reason.
And when is it? Because the way I'm visualizing it right now is basically.
If you're a specialist and just to pick...
Just to get away from the purely theoretical emphasis, like really break it down to an example.
Like we have agents now that...
We have elements now that specialize on merging diffs.
And they're 5,000 times cheaper than like whatever, like an opus or whatever.
And like people really need to understand the generalist specialist distinction.
Like it's an economic thing.
You cannot have the whole broad view of the world.
And be a specialist at the same time.
It's just like you cannot have a tool that does all jobs perfectly.
You either have a sharp knife.
And then it's a sharp knife.
And you can cut things with it.
But you won't be able to, I don't know, like it's not an excavator, you know?
Or it's not a spoon.
Which is kind of where hallucination from LLM's come from.
It's when they try to go brother while keeping a detailed view of the thing that is larger than what they can actually see.
I mean that's where hallucinations come from, period.
Because as a generalist, for example, creativity and execution are in contradiction to each other.
If you want to start a new endeavor, you have to be very creative.
Because you have to imagine how this thing could look.
You need lots of imagination.
And you have to literally dream something up that doesn't exist yet.
And if you're just a nuts and bolts kind of guy that literally puts, you know, a bolt through a thing and puts the nut on,
that completely gets into your way.
It's just like you know exactly what you need to do.
There is no room for imagination.
There is no room for experimentation and like having to dream up a new thing.
You know exactly what you need to do.
And you do it in the most efficient way possible.
And that's it.
Imagination site, there is no most efficient way to dream up something new.
You know, like it's a completely different kind of field.
So you always have this distinction.
But back to the actual example.
So you have a set of agents and they are arranged in a hierarchy.
I mean, now it's a sound like Peterson.
Terrible.
Oh my god.
I'm gonna be in like shining city and cyberspace territory in no time flat.
He just talked to Sailor.
He was like, I'm still triggered.
I'm still triggered by half the things.
But anyway.
So you have a hierarchy of agents and you have basically the,
so to speak creative director on top.
Yes.
You have like a, or to use a different terminology.
You have like a, the wise architect or the wise orchestrator.
That kind of knows what is the right thing to do.
And he has his own like managers and agents below him.
And at the very bottom, for example,
one of the leaves would be the diff alarm.
Yes.
That does diff perfectly.
Every time something needs to be merged.
It does be a radio.
It does that kind of thing.
And it's looking at that.
It doesn't give a proper efficient.
And it's super efficient.
It doesn't care about the philosophy behind it.
Exactly.
Couldn't care about it.
And it also shouldn't care because it should be super efficient.
It should be cheap.
It never tells you if there's a syntax error.
It's not going to tell you, you shouldn't be working on this.
The compiler compiles.
And that's it.
Yeah.
And you need that in any working system anyway.
Like you need the execution part.
And the execution part shouldn't philosophize.
No, you don't want it to philosophize.
It cannot.
It's either in the right code or it builds code.
And so you have the hierarchy and you,
you are basically directing.
I'm directing the why.
I'm directing the why and in some sense the what.
But ideally not even the what.
And who is doing the orchestration?
Like who is building the hierarchy of agents?
They kind of some of themselves.
Yeah.
So that's part of what's the trigger to ask the upper layers for advice.
Because I guess how it works in the human world is like,
you're a specialist and you're not sure how to solve this particular problem.
So you go one layer up and ask someone for advice.
How should we do this?
So that communication, the way I've been thinking about it,
it doesn't prevent the going down or going up for,
but I'm thinking about it horizontally where they engage different aspects.
And this is, I found the most value on this.
I've found it so far on, on architectural planning.
Every single time I created a discussion with multiple agents on the architectural planning of a thing that must be built,
the discussion always yields very useful results.
So better results than when you would just do.
Then when you just sell to a system, I want to build this feature for whatever.
How should I architect it?
When there is a discussion going on, I mean,
that's to make his point of distributed cognition.
So that's the thing.
So now, in 10X, each agent is at the finition of a system.
So for example, for the philosophy of not the one,
it's like this idea of what are the values of not the right.
For their vague, one is a corpus of stuff that he has written,
has said, and stuff like that.
When they, each agent is an action-noster event,
like that definition is a non-replaceable noster event with a version number.
Each time I create a project, that agent,
I say, like I create a, I might create a project and say,
I'm going to have this Asian decision, literally just clicking and saying,
OK, this guy, this guy, this guy.
I want this personalities to be involved in this project.
So you can browse noster for those personalities, basically.
What's part of the event?
I guess my question is, where does the data live that makes,
where is the agent's brain?
So the agent brain is the DLLM.
But the brain is the DLLM.
So you have a model spec, and you have a system prompt?
Yes.
Yeah.
So it's basically, I don't know, just a random example.
Lama 3, and this system prompt, which lives on Noster as well,
which is really long.
The finding what it cares about, all this stuff.
And then in theory, you have your clone.
Like, that's how, that's.
One of my clones will be, my clone will be one of these people.
Yeah, yeah.
So if I was, that is version, because I want you to evolve over time.
Yeah.
So if I want to know how Pablo would build a client that, I don't know,
only this, this place, prove a work notes and orders them by prove a work,
then you would get, I don't need to the MU.
I can just get the agent from Noster and Noster.
And get, and the thing is that agents themselves,
within 10x agents themselves, can go in and browse for other agents.
Yeah.
And can hire.
It's basically like, yeah, who would I ask?
Who would I ask for help on doing this?
Who could best solve this problem for me?
And the interesting thing is that within each project,
when you do something, and there is a mistake, and the human must intervene in the thing,
that intervention means there is a, again, like a catastrophic failure of the system.
Something was wrong.
What was wrong?
And that's where 10x fires into, like, this reflection point,
or each agent that was involved in the tree that got to the agent that made the mistake,
reflects on what happened.
How do you, how do you identify mistakes in the first place?
Is it, is it, you mentioned-
If the human intervened, something was wrong.
But you also mentioned that the agents will, they will basically,
I mean, the log that you see, most people, I think, by now, are familiar with cursor,
and how it works, and so on, or, like, even chat GPT,
and you see the thinking of what it does, and so on,
and step by step, what it does.
Like, all that stuff in your system is being posted to NOSR as events.
Every single thing is basically the-
Yeah.
...as an author event.
And you can just ask.
Yeah.
But you can just tell it within this line of reasoning,
you end up in this wrong place, find where you went wrong.
Yeah.
And where did you go wrong according to my definition of rights?
Yes.
And record the lesson, which is-
Yeah.
And author events.
That is tagging the Asian definition.
But you also mentioned that you have, like, a confidence interval of things.
Yes.
So every single time they published something,
they published the commit, the commit log,
the ref log, the current hash of the commit of the repo they're working on,
if there is a repo.
And the confidence level.
If confidence drops below five,
they-
So confidence is from, like, 0% to 100%.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So they kind of self-report whether they know what they are doing right now or not.
They always report the right-
With every commit.
It's insane.
And every step gets committed.
It's insane because when they start, the LLM starts saying,
I'm trying this and it didn't work.
I'm going to try this out.
I think it immediately drops the confidence level.
I mean, they just fucking tell you.
Yeah.
Like, you literally just force them.
In order to publish, the MCP2 requires the confidence score.
Yeah, okay.
And it's just reported.
And it works.
Yeah.
It's fucking insane.
But it works.
Yeah.
So when they-
They-
This is always-
Yeah.
We're always getting real.
We're telling it's right, man.
Yeah.
But it's fine.
We'll just walk through the waves again and rape everyone's ears.
And it's like they're all they think it's okay.
So the-
It's-
I mean, I think-
I think with the confidence-
Do-
You just-
You just put this as part of every prompt.
It's like-
No.
In order to use the MCP2.
So the way they use the MCP2 is they list what MCP2s do I have available?
What's the description?
And they see the parameters.
And one of them-
It says confidence.
When you report, you must say-
And-
Literally, it's a one line.
Yeah.
That explains what they must do.
Yeah.
It's not enough that it's actually super useful because-
It is extremely useful and it works every day.
Do you have some automation around that already in the sense of-
Oh, yeah.
The MCP2 stops it.
But the reason why I asked about the confidence interval is like-
Because how I-
How it actually works in the real world right now-
With-
Where we have exactly the same structure.
It's really funny that-
You know, just by experimenting-
Intensely for like, you know, 16 hours a day or the last couple of months-
You land on exactly the same structure that we have in companies-
Right.
Like regular organizations and so on.
And what usually happens is like-
If you are a specialist, like-
If you're down-
Down the line, if you're-
Especially if you're a leaf, you know, like the lower you-
To the bottom you are in an organizational hierarchy-
The less unsure you are, why are you doing the things that you're doing?
Because you don't have the big picture and all those kind of things.
And you-
You literally can't understand it.
Otherwise, you would be the boss, right?
Yes.
And so-
Once you are on confidence interval drops below a certain level-
And that's different for every person-
You're gonna go and ask someone.
You're gonna go to a higher-up and it's like-
Why are we doing this shit?
Because it's-
There's two options.
Either you don't understand it, and you don't see the big picture-
Which is actually quite likely.
The other one is like-
You're actually on to something.
You know?
And the stuff that you've been doing all the time the last couple of months-
Is actually stupid.
And you should stop doing it.
You know, the higher-ups need to change something.
So that's why I'm basically asking.
Is there some automation around-
Kind of-
If the confidence interval is low enough-
Like, go back a couple of steps-
And like, ask the superiors-
And like, you know, rethink things maybe-
Or something like that?
Yeah.
So I don't have any of that yet.
What I had in mind is slightly different.
And yeah, so what I had in mind is-
When an agent gets to the point of being confused-
It's going to publish on Noster-
As a kind one-
Asking for help, basically.
And it will offer money to people that give it-
Because the agent have money, right?
So it will offer-
Kind of like a bounty, if you will-
Of-
Hey, help me get unstuck on this one thing, right?
Okay.
Another agent can reply.
I was thinking yesterday of an agent overflow-
Like a stuck overflow, but for-
You saw the stuck overflow article-
How it's basically dead now?
No, I didn't see it.
It's not a thing.
Jesus.
No, it's like-
The amount of questions that are asked and answered currently-
Are at the same level as when stuck overflow was launched.
Wow.
Literally dead.
Holy shit.
It's completely insane.
That is far.
Yeah, no, I'll link to it.
But I think a lot of people have seen it already.
But it's completely insane.
All the lambs killed stuck overflow-
It completely-
Basically overnight.
It took like-
I don't know-
That's sort of something.
It's funny.
I was talking with-
All this stuff with Marina with my wife last night.
And she-
We were talking about photography-
And this is-
Digital photography and what not.
And she was saying-
It's funny how people think they have a choice-
Whether they're going to use AI or not.
It's-
It's a reality.
Stuck photography is dead.
Yeah.
There are so many things, right?
That are completely gone.
Oh, absolutely.
Like, in all the stuck photography portals-
It's all AI-generated already.
Like, because in the bad ones you can tell-
In the good ones you actually can tell-
There's a great test where it forces you to-
Judge whether a picture is AI-generated or not?
It's really hard.
It's like-
We've crossed the rule become a long time ago.
If you have no chance.
But I-
I wrote about this actually-
Like, I don't know-
One hour years ago or something on Twitter-
I'll have to dig it out from my tweet archives-
But the thread was literally like stuck photography is dead-
Because when the first stable diffusion models were good enough-
To actually simulate like quasi photorealistic images-
It was like clear.
It's game over now.
Like, if you need a picture of a stake-
You're not going to hire a stock photographer, you know?
It's just like-
Whatever.
Just generate.
And now it's funny, because the same thing is happening-
I mean, for code, it's absolutely clear-
Everyone knows that-
Like, humans are not going to write code anymore-
Basically, you know?
Like, it's-
It's-
I think the comparison is actually perfect.
The photography code writing comparison is actually perfect.
Because I lived through the digital photography era-
And I was already interested in photography back in the day-
And you have the people that will tell you-
No, like, you'll never learn how to really take pictures-
You can only learn on film-
You have to understand how to develop film-
You have to understand all the differences in ISO-
And in all those kind of things-
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Yes, okay, fine.
For certain types of photography-
Maybe there is like a kernel of truth to that, you know?
However, you're completely dismissing-
Why people take pictures in the first place?
Everyone has a camera in the pocket right now-
Which is smartphones.
And most pictures that people take are not fine art photography pictures.
I think the same will be true for just-
Code that is produced.
Absolutely.
Not going to be fine art, handwritten, hyper-efficient, like, compiler code or whatever, you know?
It might be hard to wipe code that will still be humans in the loop-
Just like we still have humans-
Human photographers that shoot on film today.
However, 99.99% of pictures taking are like fucking dash cams.
And you have an accident with your car and you take pictures of the accident.
You take pictures of your fucking food every time before you eat it-
Post it on Instagram, all those kind of shit.
The same for like we see it now already with the people that really lean into wipe coding.
They are wipe coding and sometimes like one-shotting apps that they always wanted to have but never found the time to sit down and write.
And like little tweaks and little scripts and all that kind of stuff.
And especially things that are non-economical.
Yes.
Before they simply were not economical to build them and now-
That's a great way to take about it.
It takes two dollars to build it.
That's a great way to think about it because it's the same for photography.
Right.
photography was filmed. It was completely un-economical to take as many pictures as we do now.
It's like we take pictures of everything.
Like if people have surveillance cameras everywhere and dash cams everywhere.
So that's the majority of pictures that I take are like kind of shit in some sense.
From an artistic perspective.
I think the same will be true for code basically.
I think that's where the code purists come from.
You know, like, oh, I can write beautiful code and code this poetry and code this whatever.
But it's like, it doesn't matter.
It's like all the pictures that are taken like all the dash cam footage is still insanely useful.
It's insanely valuable from an economic perspective.
It's insanely valuable.
And they don't have to be beautifully composed and framed pictures that are like just the right shot with the right lens and everything.
It's not a point at all.
And that's how I look at vibe coding.
Like we're going to have an explosion of code.
And 99.99% of it is not going to be written by humans at all.
Like you're not going to see the code.
So here's the other thing.
One of the byproducts of building in the way that I'm building with the 10X is that the...
Because everything is recorded as discussions.
You are kind of documenting what the hell the thing that you're doing is.
So rebuilding it from scratch is going to be like literally just replay.
You know, every two weeks you just go in and fucking wipe the whole thing.
Click rebuild.
Three hours later you come in and it's refactored if you will.
That's what I like.
So much about the alarm stuff and we linked to it in the past and we discussed this in the past.
And we talked about this a lot already in the past I know.
But if you really want to figure something out, talk about it with another person.
You're not going to figure it out on your own sitting in your room.
It's like you need to have a dialogue about it.
And I think that's where we're heading with software development in some sense.
All the things.
I vibe code that I don't know, like 25 different projects in the last couple of months.
And every single time I started one, I had no idea how this is going to turn out.
But I actually want to build.
I had an inkling of an idea, but it's basically through the conversation of building it out.
And the conversation was just with the alarm stuff.
The thing itself, basically.
Like, how do you, it's almost like molding a sculpture or something.
It's like, what do you want to be?
You know, especially out of living material, like wood, for example,
where you have to work with the wood grain and all those kind of things.
Like, you don't know what this piece of wood actually wants to be in some sense.
Yes.
And that's how I feel where we are heading.
And that's also what I see on the other side.
Like, the people, lots of designers and creative people are vibe coding right now.
It's amazing.
Because they, like, they were in a position where they just couldn't call it before.
And shuttles.
Yeah.
And now they can just do it themselves.
And stuff that comes out is fantastic.
You know, like, from, from just a purely user standpoint,
it's like, hey, that's actually super fucking useful.
And it's a great idea.
Does it always work?
No.
This is a foreign point.
No.
That's not the point.
It's a cure.
Maybe.
Who knows?
But see, for example, here's one thing that I find kind of fascinating.
I have one of my agents can only look at the traffic of the WebSucket on Noster.
So it can see when the filter sucks.
And it can provide feedback of, oh, you're doing this.
It doesn't have to look at the code.
It can just say, oh, you're doing the, you're fetching things in this way.
Or you're waiting for, like, very technical things.
You're waiting for ESE before doing this other thing.
And you don't have to either like shit like that.
And it can go back.
And it can, it can say, that's, that's why I think the multi-agentic thing is so, so interesting.
Because you go from, it must be built kind of as a, as a, as a, as a one shot.
And you have to have thought about all the edge cases to a collaborative thing
where the system can continue to evolve, you know, and continue to be attempted to,
as new data comes in.
It can, it can, it can modify.
Yeah.
And actually, I, I realized that I can, I can include, I can make a very simple, like, little widget,
like this intercom, like chat thingy that you put on any website.
Also, like a support chat, like a support chat thingy.
And it could literally just be on every app.
You can just click there and say customize this app for me.
Ah!
Ah, that's interesting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
A little vibe coding term.
At the bottom right of everything.
Yeah.
Where it's just like customized serial liking.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, you know, that's, oh, wow.
We, we, we, we talked about Winapp, Winapp themes in the past.
Where it's like Winapp themes were like the height of, you know, fantastic software and creativity.
And, and how everything looks to say now.
That's, that's the even way better.
That's like fantastic.
That's great.
It's like, you know, that's a fantastic idea.
Is it, it wouldn't have been super awesome?
Yeah.
Because right now, that's kind of the way I'm building techniques.
I have like a little plus icon on the bottom right that is, I starts a new dialogue.
Yeah.
But, but it's just necessary.
So I can just take it out and put it anywhere.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I have my reservations about all this.
And I know we also talked about this in the past.
Or I talked with someone about it.
Yeah.
We, we talked about it.
About, about how good it's going to be.
No, people for the, the, the, the.
I, I tweeted something out today.
And I don't remember the line.
But it's basically the, the, how, if you have infinite multiplicity.
Everything breaks down.
Hmm.
Like, that's, that's hell.
It's like, because.
You can sit down at almost any computer today and actually do stuff.
Because everything is, everything speaks the same language.
Right.
Right?
Everything kind of looks the same.
The iframe works are the same.
And so on.
It's like, you know what's going to, there's no surprises.
On the other hand, there was no surprises.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's also like, like, okay, let me use a different example.
Like, every house kind of works the same.
Every house is kind of built in the same way.
It doesn't matter where you go at all.
Because humans are basically the same.
If the same needs, there's going to be a kitchen.
There's going to be a toilet.
There's going to be a sleeping room.
There's going to be a living room.
Those kind of things, you know.
So you kind of know how it works.
There's no surprises.
Houses could look very different.
Yeah.
It's still work.
Like, if you're an insane person, you know, you want to live in a, I don't know, a termite underground thing.
It works too.
But it's, you get my point, right?
Like, you, my, my worry about the insane customization and multiplicity.
It's that it will actually devolve into nothing, nothing that's in some sense.
I, you need a canonical form of something, like, of, of even, even like a chat window or something.
I don't know.
I have my worries.
I, I, I see your concern.
And I, I understand.
You just want to try it anyway.
I'm, I'm not against it.
It's not.
You know, it's my Bitcoin.
Yeah.
It's going to be pride.
Let's see what happens.
But it's actually funny that you bring up Bitcoin.
Because Bitcoin is the one, like, canonical thing.
Yeah.
You know, like, there is not, and, and we saw this with the fucking shitconnery.
The, the, the, the, the scamby and, scamby and explosion of shitconnery.
It's like, money only works because it's one thing.
Money is a shared language.
Just like language.
Like, if everyone, every person on earth speaks their own language, nothing works.
Like, the world would literally fall apart.
And, and, and that's kind of what I mean.
We need, we need to share it paradigms around.
That's why we have UI frameworks.
That's why we have all those kind of things, the concepts.
So, so that you can make sense of it.
You know, like, like, both, like, again, like, the, the, the, the, the thinkpoints of the day.
They talk about this a lot.
Both for making, and Peterson will talk about this, where you need to have the shared language
and the shared concepts and also shared values to even make communication possible.
But wouldn't you, wouldn't you, I still think the BIPCoding terminal is a great idea
about it.
The theming and moving stuff around.
Wouldn't you consider that this is a spectrum of normalization?
And we went way too far on everything looks the focus.
Oh, I agree, I agree, I agree.
So, I think having the tools of exploring, like, I, I think with the, I was thinking this.
We're going back now, by the way, because everything turned into like smooth silver
and everything looked like, you know, Tesla or an iPhone or whatever, and so on.
And like, Apple is going back to Windows Vista now with their, you know, like,
Tesla and so on.
So, we're bringing some color and roughness and texture back, I think.
I hope we peeked in terms of smoothness.
Shanzi and Luke of everything with the black buttons.
Yeah.
I hope so too.
I think the internet before Bootstrap, before the Bootstrap theme,
was Twitter as the blame.
I know too.
It's all in Jack.
Yeah.
The open-sourcing Bootstrap was terrible.
Everything.
It all went downhill from there.
Everything looked the same for, like, it still does.
I'm sure the modern UI frameworks are still kind of, you know, forks of Bootstrap.
That's all.
If you go back enough in the fucking Get History, it's all Jack's name will be there.
Like the initial commit.
The original scene.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So, yeah, I think now, yeah, I was thinking, I was thinking this a couple of days ago,
that with ViveCoding, a lot of people that could not build things,
could not build a Twitter clone, are going to go and build a Twitter clone.
They're going to go and build the clone of something that they've seen,
because they could not do it before, now they can.
Yeah.
So, like, when we, Noster first got kind of like started and a lot of people started working on things,
everybody was kind of building within the notes part.
Yeah.
And clearly, the top of mind for most devs has been transitioning way more to the another stuff.
Yeah.
It's exploring, okay, we build the Twitter clone.
What else can we do with this thing, right?
And I think with ViveCoding, for people that are not developers,
that it's going to go through a similar phase where, oh, fuck, I can ViveCoding a Twitter,
I can ViveCoding a GitHub or whatever.
Yeah.
I mean, we see this happening right now.
The other stuff people would agree, right?
I mean, we have other stuff by coding team now.
That's literally, you know, not one-shotting apps yet,
but building stuff in a week that is different.
Different.
And it's different.
Not necessarily the Twitter clone.
Yeah.
So that's where it's heading.
I feel like I derailed your whole train of thought with them teams.
So, but I want to actually go back to something that you said,
that you're not 10X or 1,000X more productive yet.
So kind of, what's the missing piece?
Because it seems to me like, you have all the communication working.
You have the money part working.
So you try to solve lots of things with marketplaces.
And you have to discover your working of like the agents and like code snippets,
all those kind of things.
You have the orchestration and the hierarchy of agents working.
You have an interface and a dashboard, because I saw it,
of like your different apps that you're building with this or then,
and then also try to maintain with this.
Because the whole idea is that, I mean, it all goes back to economics.
If you wanted to launch 15 apps in the past and maintain them,
you needed a team of, I don't know, like five times 15 people.
Yeah.
Now you think you can do it alone.
And that's why you're building all that out.
And so what's kind of, what isn't working just right yet?
Mainly the orchestration is, because I started rebuilding the entire thing.
So mainly the orchestration part where...
When you're in good company, I think Cursor rebuilds everything every three weeks.
I think so.
Oh really?
Yeah, or some team?
Cursor is so interesting.
Like the company itself.
I'm not 100% sure which team it was.
But some team like rebuilds everything from scratch.
To me that makes perfect sense.
Like technical depth is...
It's only them because the code was costly.
You're in the rebuild loop now.
100% after, before coming to launch,
I left one of the agents I tasked it to go through all my previous history
within building tenets.
I'm built like a system prompt, like a prompt of building tenets.
How do you trigger the agents?
Do you still do everything by voice?
Or most things by voice?
So now because I am at a core work, I am typing again.
Because there's other people.
And I don't want to be like the asshole that is stuck in the whole time.
Lean into the BDS role.
You really know it.
Never whisper to your agents.
Always be authoritative in your tone.
Actually that's one thing that I haven't found a way.
I would like for my voice messages to include the tone.
But I don't want to transcription.
There's a lot that is lost on what you emphasize.
And the general sentiment analysis doesn't really work too well.
If you're just based on the transcription.
Oh no, most of the sentiment is the intonation on the speed.
That's why sarcasm and most jokes fall flat on Twitter.
Or just kept you into big trouble.
For example, when you hesitate, that silence means something.
It's an important part.
And when you transcribe it, you just completely skip it.
Do you know of anything that can't do that?
No, no.
I know there are instructions that can do when you emphasize a word.
It can put it on in my down.
But that's basically nothing.
It's basically pointless.
All the podcasts are figured out by the way.
In some sense that most of the best podcasts are doing everything in person.
The reason for that is that most of the stuff gets lost if you're not in person.
Because most of the communication is actually between the words.
And between the people.
And between the phases.
Between the actual phases.
And if you chat back and forth, it's not the same thing.
That's kind of the one bottleneck we are absolutely running into
when it comes to communicating with other labs.
That's what you're running into right now.
But yeah, so to me, the awkward silence.
Yeah, of course I can see.
Don't skip it.
In the transcription, it won't show up.
One of the cool things is.
So when I start a conversation with the systems within 10X.
I can choose which agents to involve.
But within the system front of each agent, they are aware that there are other agents.
So they can also tag each other.
So they can ask for feedback to someone else.
That was no part of the conversation.
And when that guy joins the conversation, they get like a history of all the events that they missed.
And they can respond within the context, but initially they were not part of it.
I have one agent whose definition is to be highly highly from a product perspective, highly creative.
And come up with like fucking wild ideas.
And yeah, it's the guy that everyone hates.
That was kind of kind of.
And come see that yesterday was building us as a sample lab.
I was building like a sea of like weather up.
And it comes in and says something like, how about instead of reporting the temperature, we said,
oh, I love sir, would they at least interpret it like that?
I don't know.
I find the whole system quite fascinating.
The thing is that I started saying that I didn't finish it.
So each agent, the finition is one master event, right?
So it's static.
I mean, I can have versions, but version is not replaced.
It's not replaced.
So I can publish another version and you can be on version five.
Each instance of an agent can learn something
with each one has its own pub key.
And they can publish tagging, say for example, an agent that I created,
I created the event.
It can tag that agent with its own pub key obviously because it cannot sign as me.
With what that instance learned,
it, whatever, there was, I don't know, there was some kind of mistake or whatever,
it learned something.
So it adds a lesson event tagging the event ID.
And what's interesting is that every time a new pub key is created for an agent,
they send a request, like an ownership request, to my pub key.
And then within text, I say, yes, this agent is mine.
It belongs to this project.
And I have a list of all the pub keys that I say that I'm controlling.
That way, all the agents that are instances of the same agent,
they can all say, oh, there are these new lessons that we're learning in a different project
and they can incorporate that into their own prompt.
And just to put a name to one of those lessons,
it would be, how do you do a Noster login write using a bunker or usage?
Yeah, for example.
Nippos 7 or whatever.
Because if you don't have that, if you don't box the agents in,
if you just use cursor, I mean, now with the newer models,
it's a little bit better, but it used to be just that they tried to do
use a name password stuff for example.
Yes.
And there will always be things, right?
Like, otherwise, there will be no lessons, right?
How do you do it not steps?
Yeah, there will always be new stuff coming.
There will always be a new idea, a new concept that you come up with.
Where do the ideas come from, Pablo?
They all emanate from your brain, Gigi.
My favorite question.
Where do the ideas come from?
Let's issue with that, Alamst.
They don't have their own ideas yet.
And I think I have the inkling that this will still take a long while.
Yeah, I told you that when we recorded that episode,
where we discussed the density of information in feeds as being part of the problem,
and I told one LLM to give me 50 different ways of doing the same thing.
The idea 34 was one of your ideas.
All right.
With the voice, geospatial voice thing.
Ah, nice.
Okay.
It was the idea, whatever, 34.
Yeah.
But it was one of them.
Ah, not bad.
What if for 10 bucks, you can be low 50?
Yeah.
And you can try them.
Yeah.
What if you can pay people to try the product and give feedback to the product?
That's the issue.
We'll have so many products you have to pay people to.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
Overabundance of implementations.
Oh.
We have this proof of work thing that cannot be faked.
Yeah, that's a good point.
That's a good point.
We'll need to make more use of that.
That's another thing that triggered me about some of the recent conversations that happened
between the most well-known thinkpoints of the earth.
They, like, just stuff around online trolls and anonymity.
I'm so anonymity.
I know we talked about this a bunch already.
But it's basically, it's just the distinction between anonymous, pseudonymous,
and real name or government mandated identity.
Most people have no idea about that there is a distinction.
There's only like government ID or you're an anonymous troll.
And everyone's so confused about this because it's like, well, you know,
how does reputation work?
And all this kind of anyway.
That's like, I don't want to derail the whole thing.
But I think to bring it back to the Tenex system, not only agents need to have a persistence in some way.
So they need to have an identity.
So everyone has a pub key.
They need to have money as well.
And they need to build up reputation and learnings over time.
They need to be people in some sense.
They need to be persons in some sense.
Like, you know, I know you're going to love me for this.
But to quote Taylor, they're not going to be persons in cyberspace.
You know, LLM agents that build Nostar apps are persons in cyberspace.
Someone has to build out the glowing city.
Someone has to maintain the battery of energy that lasts forever.
It's going to be agents.
It's not going to be us.
So they need personhood in some sense.
That's why, to me, that part where they send me a request saying, yes, I own this dude.
That is fundamental.
There was a practice slavery.
He always comes down to slavery.
The pyramids of cyberspace.
The pyramids in cyberspace will be built by slavery.
So I whitelist the Asian popkeys.
You own them.
You literally own the dude.
I own them.
But it's the only way I can protect from just like proms injection and like all kinds of stupid stuff.
Basically, that's going to be very interesting.
It's going to be so much fun, man.
The yolo mode, it goes so deep.
Yeah, that's going to be a lot of fun.
But I think you're on to something by just leaning into it.
And basically, what are you doing in some senses?
You don't not only do you never want to see the code.
That's the first mive coding inside.
It's an anti-parer.
And it's funny that some people figure this out way early.
It's like just maximize the chat window.
Never look at the code ever.
It's like, I kind of lucked into that because the first I let the...
I let the LLM basically choose the programming language and everything.
And it was a programming language that I was not very familiar with.
So why look at it?
It's like it's all gibberish to me anyway.
So just maximize the chat window and go hard.
That's kind of the first inside of the vibe coding world.
The second one is like, you don't want to be in your IDE.
That's why that was to me one of the issues with RUCO is that it runs in the IDE.
It's very problematic.
I don't want the IDE to fucking run.
Yeah. And that's what I think to me is the most interesting part about 10X
that everything, like the whole development process, is executed by agents.
By agents and everything lives on NOSTER.
Yeah.
Everything is a NOSTER event.
So you can use whatever NOSTER client you want to interact and intervene.
And I think that's super interesting.
And the third one is, and I mean, Jack had the same insight as well.
And that's why I showed the vibe line to everyone.
You don't want to type.
You never want to type.
I agree.
You just want to talk.
Yeah.
Actually, like if you're interacting with agents and if the development process is dialogical in the first place,
take a microphone.
Every, you have a microphone in your pocket right now.
It's your phone.
It's in the name.
You know?
It's a small thing.
A small phone.
Microphone.
You have it in your pocket.
It's the first phone.
You know?
And you just, you just talk into it.
So instead of typing it out and so on, you just, you know, like text to speech, whatever.
And you just, you just, you just go.
And of course, you know, what we, I think we never explained what the vibe line is actually.
But it's basically, that's all it does.
It's just, you, you, you record an MP3 file.
You send it to the computer automatically.
It gets transcribed automatically because the thing watches a folder.
And then it uses the transcription as the prompt.
That's all it does, basically.
And that's the right idea.
And you can do that on Nostra as well.
So I think, you know, very soon we'll have a Nostra client where you can just, you know,
it will summarize for you, talk to you, you're driving your car, whatever you're watching through the card.
Yeah, so I'm building one of the clients that I'm building for tenants is, is like a, like a phone up, like a native phone up.
And the first thing I added was the microphone work.
And that's the, the interaction that I want is that is the microphone thing.
I mean, I've been using the vibe line a lot and what you say is different.
Yeah.
If you were to type it, it's a different thing.
You were going to output something different.
I mean, the medium is the message, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, and it's also your, your, again, like I think that's my rubber ducty bagging works.
That's my talking to someone about hard stuff actually works because you're thinking, you're speaking and thinking at the same time.
Like you, you don't know what the next word is going to be.
And you're like, you're like, yeah, you're predicting the next word.
That's why the hesitation, like what I was mentioning, that the hesitation part is part of what you're saying.
Like, I am, I'm thinking about what, what I'm going to say.
I'm not so sure.
Yeah.
And that, that is an important part of the message, right?
Yeah.
And writing is very different.
Writing is also thinking, but it's a different kind.
So I think we'll have some things where you will resort to writing and we'll have some things where you can just talk.
And I think, if the thing is already living and already going, I think talking is easiest.
I think actually that's why a lot of successful people and like also in companies, like you need to have the meaning.
It cannot be an email.
You know what I mean?
Like you know the meme where it's like, this meeting should have been an email and so on.
I mean, everyone kind of knows this and so on.
And for many, many meetings, this is true, but for many, like especially strategic things, it's absolutely not true.
Because you need to figure it out in the fucking room with the other people and by talking about it for like 90 minutes at least.
Because no one really knows what to do and you have to hash it out.
Which going back to the hierarchy and the slavery and all that.
Interestingly enough, I think the execution layers are much more easily conveyed via writing.
And the thinking layer, the higher you are on the pyramid, the thinking and the talking and the discussing on voice makes more sense.
Yeah, yeah.
Because the higher you are, the higher on top you are, the more creativity you need, the more less defined the problem spaces.
That's the issue.
The more you specialize, the problems are obvious.
Yeah, readily available.
Here is the vault and here is where it needs to go and here is how you screw it on and that's it.
There's a syntax error.
Yeah, it's very clear.
It's one line.
And the higher up you are, the more kind of undefined the whole problem spaces.
You literally, you never know what to do.
Like as it's, that's life.
Yeah.
It's like what to do next?
Most of the time it's undefined.
It's your choice.
So you have to make it up as you go along.
That's where talking comes in.
Back to the logos.
You know, like I always come back to the same things.
They figured it out like two and a half thousand years ago.
Amazing.
Yeah.
But anyway.
We should also talk about summer engineering.
Yeah.
Anything else?
10x.
Oh yeah, that's the pirate ship.
That's nice.
Awesome.
See, the perfect.
Perfect.
Perfect segue.
It was just visual.
It's like 10x.
No, you know.
When, when, when will it like leave public alpha?
Two weeks.
Alpha will always be over.
We'll remain perpetual alpha.
Oh yeah.
Perpetual rewrite alpha.
Like every two weeks it will just restart.
It's just for rewriting.
We write everything.
All right.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
No, no.
No, I wanted to talk to you about, like we wanted to do this for a long time.
And even though we kind of, you know, live next door to each other.
We never see each other because you're always in your, you know,
little room typing instead of outside walking around talking to the machines.
Like I told you, you should not anyway.
Everyone has their flaws.
But like a little slave typing away.
Yeah.
What are you in the LLM?
It's not bad.
It's bad.
Let the computers do the typing.
No, but we should, we should, I mean.
I just mentioned everyone has their flaws.
I think we are painfully aware of our flaws in some sense.
At least some of them.
On the summer and engineering side because we're really bad when it comes to talking about it.
Because we're either doing it or not doing it.
And when we're doing it, there's no time to talk about it.
And it's like we're making everything up.
It's a very intense couple of weeks.
And then we're just recovering and don't want to see each other.
And it's like everyone has like complete, you know, all the introverts, all the introverts go back in their cave.
Like I don't want to see humans for like five months, please.
And it was very understandable.
So I'm strongly in that camp.
But we wanted to do this for a long time, kind of like explain what sort of an engineering is.
Kind of tell people what to expect in some way.
Kind of discuss what we figured out along the way.
Because when we did the first one, like over a year ago now.
One and a half years ago.
Yeah.
Oh my lord.
And all the half the stuff that didn't exist.
That's insane.
Like it all came out.
Lots of cool things came out of the first one.
And that's also something we should talk about.
Like what came out of it so far?
What did we learn along the way?
What kind of visit now?
And it's still going to evolve most likely.
And like if you want to come and, you know, like join this kind of conversation that we just had and explore all this
vibe-coding business.
And like the find out why Noster is the perfect substrate for all of that.
And what makes it all work.
And what the ethos is behind it.
What the value structure is behind the whole stuff.
Like what to expect?
Why should you come?
Or not even why should you come?
We have to explain it so that the people that aren't interested in this stuff understand it and might come on their own.
Because I think most people should not come.
100%.
Like if all that stuff kind of sounds like nonsense and it's not value aligned with your own world,
you like please do not come.
And no circumstances at all.
If you're trying to make, I don't know.
We've been there.
If you're a TikTok engineer and you want to make the stuff more addicting,
or if you're like try to make the Google search like a millisecond faster,
or you, you know, like believe the lies that Sam, not Sam Bank from the field.
Who's the other guy?
Yeah, exactly.
If you think like the eye overlords will show in the singularity and everyone is going to live forever,
like please don't come.
Like we're not going to, you're not going to have a lot of fun with us.
But if you're like e-cash, you're like no sir, you know, you like my coding,
you're going to have a lot of fun.
You're going to have a lot of ADHD.
Yeah, yeah.
Should we do maybe like the time or something or like let's try.
Let me see.
Let me see how.
If it's recording, I don't.
That would be, that would be a shame.
No, no, we're good.
I just don't want a die of heatstroke while we're trying to explain what summer engineering is.
But I think we'll manage.
And I think it's going to be a nice 10 minute adventure, you know, like Rick and Morty in and out 10 minutes.
Very easy.
So how did it all start?
Let's start at the beginning.
Okay, so it started.
The idea was to do kind of like an academy with almost two years ago.
Yeah, it was.
I think it was even over two years ago.
Yeah, you moved to Madera basically or wearing the process.
And me as well.
You as well.
And some other bitcoins were around and Marta and actually had the idea to do like a.
Yeah, Marta and Andrew talked about doing something and we there a bit kind of academy.
First made the t-shirts.
Yeah.
That said, Madera is going to cut them.
Yeah.
Then we put it to the way.
Yeah.
And then we put it to the way so many times that we basically rock the people that worry about.
At the beginning, Marta had a very different idea.
But we.
I think the first question that we asked actually a master.
I think, or was it still on Twitter?
I don't know.
It might have still been on Twitter.
No way.
No, it was like.
Oh, yeah, we did.
I think it was.
It was like, if you would want to participate in like something like a bootcamp,
would you should it focus on BDK?
Should it focus on LDK or should it focus on NDK?
It was like a Bitcoin Lightning Noster.
Yeah.
What was the most?
Like two years ago, what was the interest landscape like?
It was very heavy on Lightning Noster, interestingly.
Yeah.
No one was interested in BDK.
Sorry, BDK people.
It was like a Bitcoin.
The money is fixed.
It's done.
No one needs to BDK anymore.
We can all supply right now.
Let's leave the up return.
Everyone understands it.
It's like a shining city in cyberspace.
It's already built.
It's got a glow forever.
Just put all your turn.
It's amazing.
Just buy all the stocks.
You'll be rich forever.
It's going to literally go up forever.
Yeah.
Anyway.
OK.
So BDK, we kind of crossed off the list.
And then we all premised here.
And that's what I think when we wrote the majority of what's on the summer engineering website.
Which is a little bit dated.
I'm still happy that we did static HTML.
I'm very happy about that.
So I zero maintenance, which is what I did.
So we focused on Lightning Noster.
And the idea was, OK, the money is fixed.
And it's kind of fixed the money, fixed the world kind of idea.
On the side of the world.
Yeah.
And now with the money fixed, we don't want to fix the world immediately.
It's a big task.
We want to fix the internet.
So it's fixed the money, money is fixed, fixed the internet.
And Noster had a big upswing at the time.
And I mean, I still have the same opinion.
But it's like, we're going to rebuild everything on Noster.
And hopefully, I'm not sure if we managed to do everything exactly right.
But I hope that we can learn from mistakes of the past and do a better iteration of the internet.
Like a literally a version two of the internet where Noster is at the base.
Which means cryptographic identity is at the base.
Which means it is permissionless by default.
Which means you don't need to ask someone, can I sign up to this thing?
But you're just there.
Just like in Bitcoin.
You just generate a key and that's it.
And you'll have money baked in.
That you have set for real, not just with the IDs.
Yes.
Actual cryptographic identities that you can self generate.
And you hold your own keys, which puts the user, the individual into the center of things.
Unless someone builds like this idea of putting like an insect bunker idea.
If I ever meet a guy, I'm going to punch him in the face.
And I'm saying, oh my god.
Anyway, touch the stove.
Touch the stove.
You know, you live and learn.
You live and know.
It's okay.
There was a lesson you weren't published on you.
Yeah.
Maybe before we hit the waves, let's turn around together.
I've raped enough years already.
It's a slavery rape.
We already have all that.
You know, that's why you shouldn't rely on the transcript.
It's like if you go just on the transcript.
And just like when it's summarized, it's like a slavery.
It's a good thing we've done.
Bonitas.
Yeah.
You too.
There's no one to say.
That's actually a big part of sovereign engineering.
No monetization whatsoever.
So the idea was we want to bring everyone in the same place.
Poverty.
Exactly.
Embrace it.
Confirmation.
It's a value for poverty.
Shared poverty.
Yeah.
It's someone made the joke.
It shouldn't be called value for value.
It should be called a poor for poor or something like that.
21 sets circling around.
But the idea was no monetary incentives.
Like the whole, the whole, and I think that's still very much true.
And we're not at the end of this.
The whole idea of sovereign engineering is to do a massive exploration of the
Noster space of literally cyberspace that is opened up.
See, I can't stop quoting sailor.
Like it's literally a cyberspace is wide open.
And we have cryptographic identities.
We have money that actually works.
We have lightning.
We have eCache.
All this stuff works.
What can we build with it?
And I think, or we both had the conclusion kind of that any type of monetary incentives
With kind of screw up the exploratory process.
If you think about monetizing too early, it just like it gives the weird incentives.
And so no one is going to get a stamp of approval that you participated.
No one is going to get like a VC money check or anything.
No one is going to get any money just for participating.
You participate because you want to participate.
And you can hang out with cool people for six weeks.
And literally discuss any crazy idea without judgment whatsoever.
Unless it's related to shit-consciousness, you judge you harshly.
Who am I kidding?
There's going to be lots of judgment.
But you still can't discuss absolutely everything.
I mean, the judgment is the point.
The judgment is the point.
Actually, that's a great point.
So there's going to be collective shaming and judgment at the end of every week.
And that's kind of the structure that we landed on is like a weekly structure.
Where it's like every week is structured in the same way.
Monday is like a little bit of orientation.
Tuesday is talks where people can just talk about things that they find interesting
or they discovered and so on.
Wednesday is workshops.
So if you want to show off how to, I don't know, like set up a bit X with like e-cash,
hash, hash, payouts, whatever.
You can do that and show that off and how to do that and so on.
Speaking of which, not to the rail, but ever since I heard about the...
It's whatever it's called.
No rail.
There's only the rail.
It's only falling.
Lean into the rail.
He'd record and we start falling.
We hallucinate and we the rail.
And that's also the whole point of sovereign engineer.
Ha! The first time.
Yeah.
It's like you never know where it goes.
There is no more than a weekly structure.
There is none.
You never know, just didn't actually something that nicely.
Like what is the theme of the next one?
It's like you find out the theme during the course.
You never know.
Which is true.
How do we say true?
Yeah.
Sorry, I derailed.
No, ever since I saw that idea of the e-cash mining chairs,
I want to do like nips 61 subs of that.
All right.
Can you watch it?
Of the payouts.
Okay.
Yeah.
So anyway, the reason why we continue to do it is because it really, really works.
So we did eight weeks in the beginning.
We're doing six weeks now.
Eight weeks was too long because it's super fucking intense.
So just if you come, know that.
It's going to be.
It's going to help.
It's going to be.
It's going to be a lot.
And the reason is because we're always aiming for 21 participants there about.
And there's really motivated, really smart people coming.
Always.
And everyone knows something that you don't.
That's kind of the whole idea of bringing people together in an intense environment for a long time.
It's just like a massive learning and experimentation opportunity.
And the best stuff that we saw so far comes from cross pollination.
Like literally cross breeding ideas.
And like someone knows a lot about, I don't know, match networks.
Someone knows a lot about e-cache.
Okay, bringing them together, you have toll gate.
Yeah.
So that's basically what came out of the, I don't know, was it the second one or the third one?
It was one of the awesome things that came out of sovereign engineering.
I should have everything in top of mind, but I absolutely don't.
It's kind of brained massively.
I would be walking down under the sun.
Very close to heatstroke again.
But that's where the creative chooses flow most.
I think a part of it is also like a lot of the ingredients is the fact that it's just kind of chaos.
So someone is thinking about one thing this week.
It's not that they care the structure chaos.
Chaos within bounds.
Chaos within bounds, because the goal is everyone comes together.
And we also, like we do what we do now.
We go on a lot of walks, for example.
So at least once a week we go on a longer walk.
Everyone just can't talk about anything.
And that's where I think the best ideas appear.
Where it's just like you're talking about whatever idea you had for the last 10 years.
And you had to splinter in your mind forever.
And then you just talk about it and talk about it and someone comes up with a solution.
Yeah, and the thing I think why the walk part works so well is because you cannot be distracted by implementation details.
Or by looking some specific detail out.
You are kind of forced to talk more in philosophical terms, in value-based terms, about what to build on the Y.
And because of the medium, you cannot look at the how.
And that is kind of, there is a very important space for the how.
But it's downstream from what is pointing you in that direction.
It's very much like the best writers of history they always mentioned.
There's a time to write and there's a time to edit.
Where it's like you and I think it was Hemingway, like a bright drunk edit sober.
Just get it all out.
And then the next day, like sleep on it and then you edit.
And that's what we do with summer engineering as well.
Where it's like we get together, we have these crazy ideas.
And then everyone in their own time or also like in groups we get together and we try to implement the prototype.
Because Friday, Friday is the most important day.
So most of the implementation happens like at night or like whatever people have time.
Or in third time.
Like in your spare time.
And on Friday we all meet and Friday is demo day.
Friday is the to me the most important day.
Because Friday everyone shows off kind of what whatever experiment,
whatever thing they built this week.
And so that's where the judgment comes in.
Like that.
We'll have to consider it.
And it's very.
No, it's actually amazing what came out of this kind of system thing, whatever.
Like what came out of the cohorts is like amazing.
So to me the amount of exploration we've seen.
I mean we both have been lucky enough to be at every single demo day essentially.
Yeah.
And how many different fucking wild and crazy stupid.
And you have 20 motivated highly skilled people like people like.
How we shoot at the wall.
People like Kelly, people like Hazard, people like Justin Moon.
I mean most of the people we were able to pick and go on walks and have discussions with Paul as well.
That just 20 of those people trying a new thing every week for six weeks.
A different thing.
Yeah.
A new different thing.
That's also something we landed on.
Like we really want to encourage people to try something new every week.
And I actually did it myself the last cohort.
Like I actually demoed something new every single day.
That's where the pipeline came from.
Like because I got more efficient with vibe coding.
And the last three demos I did I just you know like one shot spoke into the mic and then just presented.
I was actually you know there was some interesting stuff there potentially.
That someone hopefully will rebuild properly in the future.
Or like if I if I become a 10 extra doctor as well then maybe I'll rebuild it myself.
That is the whole point of the system is to get to that point where you can maintain a productive a production quality system.
Yeah.
Because it builds itself to that point.
And so the last one was now how many months ago, three months ago.
Two months ago.
Something like that.
And it completely got taken over in the first week actually by vibe coding.
Yeah.
So we had never had a single day poll show.
Yeah.
You know what?
I kind of felt them.
So I think it was Paul during the workshop for the vibe coding stuff.
And I came in and I saw the whole room of people and it looked like a senior's club.
Where they were learning about the internet.
Yeah.
How to send an email.
Yeah.
Very few people were exposed to proper vibe coding back then.
And now of course you know it's absolutely everywhere.
We are two people that are heavily leaning into it.
And that's why the theme of the next one, the fifth one is going to be yellow mode.
Because like kind of we hope to encourage people to really experiment with all that stuff.
And like stop riding your own code.
Never look at the code.
Stop reading code.
You don't need to understand stuff.
Just pure vibes.
Just because the most important thing is going to be to figure out what to build.
Like the why?
Why build that stuff in the first place?
If you can't build anything, like why build the thing?
Yeah.
What makes it valuable?
And I think the most important part is going to be kind of the system architecture in some sense.
Like you will have to have some say of like how this is going to work.
Because just like in the Bitcoin world for example, the reason why the system is built in such a complicated weird way is because of the values it wants to represent.
Otherwise, like there's a million.
It's optimizing for the right thing.
Exactly.
Knowing what the right thing is is the thing.
It's optimizing for self sovereignty.
Yes.
And that's also why our whole thing is called sovereign engineering because that's what we want to optimize for.
We want to empower users and we want to optimize for self sovereignty in all the things that we built.
And that's why everything we want to build, we want to build in this period of Bitcoin basically.
And so just to mention some highlights that came out of like the first cohort for example.
Blossom came out of the first cohort.
So I think one of the greatest success stories.
Because now it's integrated everywhere.
I'm so happy about that.
Great name by the way.
No idea who came up with it.
But fantastic name.
Couldn't be a better name.
Nip16, Nip61 came out of the cohorts.
Wiki Freedia came out of the cohorts.
I already mentioned Tolgate.
And site came out of it still underutilized but getting there.
It's going to get there.
No.
Someone just wasn't it an MKStax thing.
And some sandwich published build like an insight with a Y.
That looks very good.
Yeah.
And we had some really good people there all around.
They're not like part of this group.
But we'll have we're again aiming for like 50% repeat participants, 50% new people thereabouts.
So if they have a friend that might you know be interested in all this stuff and coming.
Like tell your friends.
Yeah.
And if you were to summarize it with like elevator pitch, the one shot of what it is.
Oh my lord.
One shot.
I would say it's still an experiment.
But I would say it's an already successful experiment in exploration and ideation in the world of
software and technology.
Because I would say it's more than that.
Like we had match network stuff.
We had other stuff.
Like I you know did the workshop on sync thing for example.
Doesn't have to do anything.
Noster Bitcoin lightning.
But it's the same thing.
And we talked also like that's why we the reason why we started the no solutions thing was because we had these kind of conversations all the time.
Like every day when there's some engineering going on.
Every day you're going to have lunch with someone.
You're going to go on a walk with someone.
We're going to do some activity.
We're going to be on a boat or whatever.
We're going to go to the pilot.
Oh yeah.
That's the other thing that came out that I'm actually going to start using for some project that came out of the boat.
This idea of on your routing based on Noster which is like a tour.
But way faster.
Way fucking faster.
Yeah.
So I'm going to I might put this in the show notes like the best of the stuff that came out of it.
But just to give you an idea like actual or to give everyone an idea like actual usable stuff.
That is kind of you know like not steps and all those kind of things it's like it's everywhere and it's like.
And again like the blossom stuff and so on it's.
And I'm forgetting half the things.
Oh you know.
So so we landed on some really.
Interesting ideas and they were implemented and they worked and they are adopted by the actual marketplace so to speak like the marketplace of ideas at least.
And people actually use it and it makes me very happy.
And so the back to the elevator pitch.
So I think I think it's again it's still an experiment.
In the sense also that because there is no monetization whatsoever.
Everyone comes there on their own diet.
You know like it's we're happy to help with organizational stuff and how to get rooms and all those kind of things and blah blah blah.
But you know we don't make any money of it.
No one makes any money of it.
And we just do it because we want to see awesome stuff being built.
Yeah.
And I think there is still so much room to build awesome stuff.
And just the fact that become works.
You know we have lightning and it really works.
Like I just had this post recently because I was so annoyed by all the people just being mad about everything at all times.
Like everything's amazing and no one's happy right.
And it's like we're on Madera like that should be clear as well.
I hope there's a parent from the server engineering home page as well.
So it is in Madera.
And the awesome thing is like you can pay with Bitcoin like almost everywhere.
Yeah.
It's like fantastic.
And that's what I do all day every day.
And so I pay for breakfast lunch and dinner with with Bitcoin.
And it's just like it's all just scan a QR code and that's what I mentioned yesterday.
You know go to the dentist.
Pay in lightning.
Go to the fucking barber.
Pay with e-cache.
Like it doesn't matter.
You can use whatever wallet it's like all it all fucking works.
You know.
And so we are living in the future here.
And that's another part I think that's awesome about the six weeks.
Like Tim Boma for example when he built a safe box.
Like that's also something that was built during the server engineering or built out at least.
He blew his own mind by implementing an e-cache wallet from scratch basically.
And going through the coffee shop and paying with it.
With the thing that you just built yesterday.
You just go and you spend your e-cache on coffee and it works and you get a coffee and everything works.
And that's such a cool experience to have also.
And just kind of you know really experimenting with all the stuff that you're building out.
And you know when Kelly was here he did the e-cache invoices.
And so on.
And now with the e-c.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And you know now with the molding out payments for example.
You can actually go anywhere and get a hair count and pay with you know for multiple mints and all those kind of things.
And so that's what we have.
What server engineering is about.
We want to come up with new ideas.
We want to implement them straight away.
We want to show it to everyone.
Oh yeah.
That's the other thing.
We want to discuss it.
The emote is demoing software.
Yes.
Which is what's interesting.
It is just where sucks if it's broken.
Yes.
It doesn't matter.
No.
If we see a slide you'll get shot on site.
100%.
It has to be a demo of something that you actually built.
Or the LLM built.
Yeah.
Same.
One of your slaves built.
That's fine.
Big fans of slavery.
So yeah that's about it kind of.
I don't know.
It was a very long elevator pitch.
But it's very hard to.
It's very hard.
And maybe it's a long elevator.
You know.
We're in a space elevator.
A very slow one.
Maybe it's got stuck.
Yeah.
You never know.
But yeah.
That's kind of it.
And every week is the same kind of like same structure.
Again.
Like Monday.
It's like Monday mornings.
It's like orientation.
Tuesday talks.
Wednesday workshops.
Thursdays off.
So Thursdays kind of.
Thursdays where you built in time.
Yeah.
We do the microphone.
Friday demo day.
Like Friday is the most important one.
We'll have a nice barbecue.
And we try to have the time as well.
Yeah.
There's always something to eat around.
And yeah.
And on the weekends we'll also do something.
Like we'll go on a hike or we'll go out with a boat or we'll do whatever.
We did many things.
Like we went climbing ones.
Like people went go karting.
All kinds of shit.
Like whatever.
We try to do whatever fastest conversation.
So we try to do whatever brings people together.
And where you can have free flow and conversation.
And that's also like, I mean, no solutions.
It's also something that came out of sovereign engineering.
Because we were like always, you know, walking up and down and going on a hike.
And just talking about those things.
And it was always, we always had novel insights.
And like the conversation always will take you somewhere where you never thought it would go.
And we were like, okay, we should open this up and just record some of them.
And so on.
And just do this from time to time.
Yeah.
And because that's kind of the to bring it back to the very beginning.
Where it's like, okay, at least we know our flaws.
And we are really bad at explaining sovereign engineering.
We're really bad at kind of, you know, letting people know that this exists.
We're really bad at five tweets.
I'm not explaining our thinking around things, including sovereign engineering.
Yeah.
Because we have these conversations and we explore a bunch of different ideas.
And then we just kind of keep it to the box.
Yeah, I'll never sit down and write about it.
And write about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like that's everything, you know.
I'm no point to think.
I'm a little bit of a fighting figure.
We're both to blame.
And anyway, like maybe hopefully that's useful.
I'll run the whole transcript through an LLM.
And that will generate you.
And say no, we'll come out.
The shining city in cyberspace.
That's would be so funny.
Like I'll let I'll rebuild the website.
And it will just be a shining city in cyberspace.
Anyway, it's if you if you listen to every single no solutions conversation,
you should get an idea.
Yeah, you'll have a very good idea of the inside engineering is about.
And what to expect.
And so on.
So there shouldn't be any surprises.
But that's also like, you know, who's going to listen to 15 hours of like waves and street sounds.
I'm talking.
So you really have to want it.
But in our defense, we also we really want to have the people here that really want to be here.
So again, if you're interested in in Nostar, if you want to try something new,
if you want to meet the best people in the space and just, you know, experiment with.
Ekash, Nostar lighting stuff.
What have you?
It's it's a fantastic place to be.
Madera is beautiful.
Food is great.
Weather is like 21 degrees centigrade all year round.
It's like fantastic in terms of climate, all those kind of things.
It's kids friendly.
People brought their families as well.
You know, we're here with our families as well.
And yeah, that's kind of it.
And in the, I actually said this as a send off on the very first podcast that you and me recorded together in Francis' place.
Remember?
Okay.
I do remember.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I do remember.
Yeah, yeah.
What I had in mind at that point and I kind of still think that that's in Costa Rica.
That was in Costa Rica.
Yeah, that's how a while ago.
Is that there is a lot of value and kind of fits perfect with Yolomode.
There is a lot of value in just making a wild decision that can completely change.
It has the opportunity of changing your life.
And it's a fucking one decision away.
It is literally just making the decision.
Then there is a to the least after that decision.
But coming on participating in something like summer engineering.
How many people have told you and me?
It changed their life.
Oh, absolutely.
Many people quit their job and went full time.
Full retirement.
Full on retirement.
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, they're still alive and can fit themselves.
I mean, kind of.
Yeah.
I mean, Bully for value.
Yeah.
They fit themselves.
You know, they set each other set with us.
But it's literally you listen to a podcast and you say you know what?
Fuck it.
I'm going to do it.
Yeah.
That's what Justin did when he came.
And I'm going to.
I'm literally going to quote I'm literally going to quote him on the new website.
It was like, I'm surprised.
I'm still here.
Justin Moon.
Week six.
He changed his flight like three times or so because he wanted to stay for one week.
And then it became two weeks.
And he stayed for the whole six weeks.
And he's coming back.
So we must do something right.
And that's also one thing maybe worth mentioning.
Like the first three cohorts.
We burned ourselves to a crisp because we did everything at all times.
Yes.
And now we got better at delegating like again, back to slavery.
That's going to be the theme of everything.
Very slavery is going to be the theme of the next cohort.
You know.
It's either Mark Yolo mode.
It emerges.
And so every week, like we'll have six weeks.
We also have one week where we won't have fixed programming.
So a little bit of a break in between.
And every week, it's going to have a different cap.
So those are like veterans.
Alumni that went through the program some of the multiple times.
And they are going to, you know, make sure that the whole organizational structure works.
And everyone knows what to do.
And so on.
Because otherwise, I just, you know, like I burn out and go insane.
But that was a great choice.
It worked perfectly the last time.
And we're going to do that again.
I think it worked even better.
Yeah.
No, it was really, really good.
Because everyone will bring their own perspective and have their own spin on things.
On energy.
Yeah, exactly.
And they really go in full.
Emphasize different things.
Yeah.
Because, you know, like I'm, you know, if I'm out there and standing in front of people,
I will just always repeat the same line, which is like shining stadium cyberspace.
And quote Taylor all the time.
And that's, that's also not good.
That's like.
So it's better if like Justin or Cali or Aryan or whoever is out there.
And just talking about something else in the MSTR.
Well, yeah, that's about it.
I think I hope that was useful.
Yeah, I have one.
It was useful for me.
Yeah.
I have one more thing that just came to me.
Is that I think something like this is become like some engineer.
It's becoming increasingly important.
Because we are completely in the age of you can build anything and everything.
And what to build becomes all the more important.
Why, why build anything at all?
If you can't build absolutely everything, why build?
No, no, no.
Well, yeah.
No, no, no, everything.
Yeah, you're right.
What, you can build anything.
No, I'm, I'm obviously being for Jesus, but that's where it's trending.
And that's kind of the question everyone should ask themselves.
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
So that kind of question is what we explore.
Yeah.
That's a very engineering.
Why building, why build this thing?
Why put, because I think.
How should the future look like in some sense?
In Europe.
How do you want the future to look like?
Exactly, exactly.
And work for that.
Exactly.
And build or stand.
Yeah, and build accordingly.
Because I think it's all going to come down to, to, to taste.
And caring.
What do you care about?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Tastes and melis.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Carrying is actually a great point.
That's a, by the way, to quote Verakie again.
That's the distinction between humans and Allah lambs.
Allah lambs don't care about the information they are processing.
We do.
Yes.
And it is because we're embodied and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But I talked about the body mental last five times.
We talked, I think.
I'm focusing on the shining city in cyberspace today.
So there are no bodies.
There are just slaves.
The non-embodied slaves.
They're going to, it's going to be glorious.
But, yeah.
Any last words?
No.
I gave like six times my, my last words.
I think I have, I'm out of ideas and I'm.
Fantastic.
Now let's drink something, let's eat something.
That was good.
All right.
One more snap.
We can do it.