Is it before water to start?
Yep, all right, I'm going.
All right, cheers.
Oh, what did you say?
Yeah, it's the European Union.
We don't have a cheers on us.
We only have good morning, right?
GM's, PV's.
GM's.
That's all there is.
All right.
Let's do two or three rings around the rosy
and then go out into the sun.
Traffic and sun.
All right, let's do it.
And let's see what causes first.
Well, I've been mostly looking the right direction
when I'm crossing roads.
That's good.
Is it different in Australia?
Yeah, Australia is like the UK.
So you've got right height first.
So you?
Yeah, I'd look right in there.
I think I've had a couple of close calls where I've just
just been about to step out.
There's a lot of one way of streets around here as well.
I always say the same thing.
It's a very beautiful island.
And the only two things that can kill you is traffic
and cliffs, basically.
Yeah.
No poisoners animals.
No big animals.
Not too much violence, I hope.
So.
Well, we have a lot of violence.
An animal.
You have a lot of violence animals.
I feel like Australia is kind of the opposite of this year
where very big.
Yeah, right there.
Lots of poison and stuff.
Still lots of things to kill.
It's still an island.
Really big island.
Yeah.
Warm.
It's warm here.
It's warm right now.
But it's not like the heat usually doesn't kill you.
There's the same thing.
It looks like the most safe thing to have.
In the mountains.
Yeah.
So how was the first week for you,
or the first two weeks now, I guess?
What made you come here in the first place?
Let's start in the beginning.
Yeah.
So.
What was it?
I think I discovered your no solutions podcast.
There we go.
Yeah.
Popped up.
I think the first one I listened to was the Kale episode.
Okay.
Yeah.
I just felt like there was like a lot of work that I'd been like
started previously that never, never went where I expected it to
and didn't finish off.
And I don't know.
I felt quite inspired about that episode.
I was just like, you're right.
The internet is really fucked.
It needs fixing.
It's not getting any better.
We can all agree more on attack.
So.
Maybe it's time to.
Yeah.
We can try to.
Make a nice cliche the one day or something.
But maybe one day we can move.
Sorry, an engineering to this place.
It would be really neat.
That would be a real life Citadel.
And then everybody would go and work in the next office.
Like at the grass.
Yeah.
So.
So what stood out for you in terms of the eCache episode?
I know.
I listened to it about six months ago.
Because we talked about a lot of things if I remember correctly.
We talked about the eCache, of course.
And how cash you can actually fix things in terms of.
It allows you to actually pay for stuff and not pay with your identity or data and those kind of things.
Talked about confidential compute and what that could bring and so on.
I mean, what do you mean in terms of you?
You worked on all this for a while or thought about this for a while?
Well, I mean, I.
So I went to Fetty previously, which is in the eCache space.
But like prior to that, I think I got interested in eCache back in 2019.
It was Frank Brown and Smuggler were working on the script cash.
Okay.
So the stuff and I thought, oh, this is a great solution.
Like I looked at lightning early on and just from my like initial like architect type reading.
Yeah.
Oh, this isn't payments or it's not final.
It's just not going to work like that with liquidity.
But it would make excellent.
That's a very deep inside.
Yeah.
I think most people didn't have early on.
No.
The lightning was having it because no one believed it.
The lightning narrative was very much like it's payment for everyone.
Yeah, we try and argue it with people and they say no, no, you're wrong because I made a payment.
Yeah.
You know, we did that with on chain Bitcoin back in the day.
So this might last like two for years and then we'll get annoyed at it.
Yeah.
So try to cross over.
Yeah.
So it always struck me that that was probably not not the way it goes.
Okay.
And you probably want something else.
I was working on different like eCache systems like all my whiteboard at home.
Yeah.
Just trying to figure out what might work.
But I figured nothing would ever work unless you had some sort of better trust model or something inside.
So like the random data in the eCache.
Maybe that could somehow be related to keys that you own or something like that.
Okay.
Some more trustless.
But I couldn't figure it out.
And then I think it's like Eric really spending it and I was like, no, maybe nobody cares about that.
It's just me trying to write curve it and be too complex.
Yeah.
So I got voted.
Lots of people didn't care in the beginning.
Yeah.
I mean, that's kind of that's the story of eCache in general.
And then obviously Cache is even simpler.
It's like, well, yeah, maybe it's just overdoing it.
But I don't think it's like I...
I think just in terms of like world view, like what I want is just...
Just more control at like the individual level.
Like I don't like just sticking stuff off to some massive institutions.
Oh, fuck.
I'm fine.
I thought I was going to be the one walking into stuff.
Yeah.
So I have like a strong preference for like localism.
Yeah.
The farmer's market stuff.
Yeah.
Like keeping stuff close to the people and to cash for it.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So I don't like...
Yeah, it wasn't really very keen on the direction things were going.
Yeah.
Like, you know, Australia has a bit of a tendency towards bad policies.
Yeah.
I think it's...
How is it in Australia in general, like with farmer's markets and other things?
Oh, it's...
Is it very...
Is it very cash heavy?
Is it like others in work?
How do things work?
To be honest, even farmers markets these days aren't very cash heavy.
No.
It's all squared.
It's all Jack.
Okay.
Everybody else squares up on their phones.
Everybody just tap and pay for everything.
All right.
Yeah, well.
I mean, it's not all bad in some sense.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Never mind.
In some sense, you know, if people are used to using their phones and so on,
it should make it easy to transition to e-cash and the things like we are working on, basically.
Yeah.
It's, you know, like just another app or in...
Like with...
With squares, there's even the possibility that it will make it into square in the long run.
Well, so we keep seeing in the announcements.
I mean, we have our local bit devs in Perth in a place that has square terminals.
Yeah.
I look forward to it suddenly turning on.
Yeah.
I mean, it's quite...
It's very nice here, like just how many places just natively accept that coin.
Yeah.
Where do you go?
Yeah.
That's pretty cool.
So you've tried BTC map and some of the places that we ever own here?
Oh, to be honest, I haven't been looking them up on the map.
I've just been...
You see the stickers.
You've seen them with the kind of stuff and stuff.
Yeah.
And obviously everybody's been here before already knows.
I always go here this one.
Yeah.
That's been nice.
All the best places.
It's just such a weird experience for you.
Yeah.
Okay.
Bitcoin, let you just go.
Yeah.
It's very normal, right?
Yes.
It's very, very normal.
That's kind of...
I had this long Nostopostum all I know.
Probably almost a year ago now or something.
But I was reflecting on that.
How normally it is now for me to pay...
Like, I pay breakfast lunch and dinner basically in Bitcoin.
I mean, most of the time I cook myself for dinner.
But at least I...
Breakfast lunch and coffee.
And so if I'm just out in the mountains.
Yeah, they're supermarkets.
That's what I'm interested in.
And also...
Like, for example, for us, it's super normal.
Like, if...
Like, we have a handyman, for example, and he accepts Bitcoin.
Because he's from here and everyone accepts Bitcoin.
And so it's just...
Do you accept Bitcoin?
Yeah, sure.
And he'll just...
You know, like, there's no resistance, basically, in some sense.
And also, the babysitters...
We have, like, we...
It's very normal.
It's like...
Yeah.
It's very, very normal.
And so...
So...
There was a point where I just...
You know, like...
You do it every day and you just pay for your coffee every day.
And you pay in Bitcoin all the time.
And I was like, oh, wow, it's so normal.
Like, I don't even...
I don't know, it's very weird.
You don't even appreciate it anymore.
Because it's not too long ago, like...
To your point, like, lightning, for example...
I remember the first lightning conference in Berlin.
Like, nothing worked.
Everyone was, like, hyper-prepared.
You know, balanced shadows.
Everything set up.
And, like, at least 50% of payments failed.
Like, it was so bad.
Nice.
And now it's just, like...
It's all lightning all the time.
And it all works.
But to your point, you know, like, this will also evolve.
Like, that's...
We know that lightning...
Kind of...
Like, what do we have now?
It won't stay this way for...
For long, I think.
Like, yeah.
I mean, it always comes back to some sort of base-change transactions.
It's gonna have...
It's gonna have a cost...
It's gonna have like, steeple in.
It's gonna be...
One more here just to stay in the shade.
Oh, no.
Maybe not, because there's a...
Well, let's go into the sunset.
I...
I live in Australia.
It's okay.
I can walk in some.
Yeah, that's okay.
You get that going for you.
I used to do triathlons as well in summer.
And so you end up...
Oh, nice.
You're going to do, like, a five-hour bike ride.
And then you have to run a half marathon in the sun.
Wow.
Like, you know, as an...
As an Austrian born and raised
and growing up in the mountains, I'm not used to the heat.
But very much...
Very close names, though.
Yeah.
It's not Australian.
It's interesting how often people confuse it.
Like, when I was the only day as a kid,
and people would ask me where I'm from,
they would always hear Australia, basically.
Like, you say Australia, and they're like a bad accent.
That's why I say Australia.
My little tip for English people going to France these days,
is to always tell them you're Australian.
Okay.
Because obviously, if you're English and you turn up in France,
they just...
They just matter you.
You say, oh, no.
That's not from Australia, though.
Oh, wow.
It's such a long way.
That's a good life.
All of a sudden they switch into perfect English
and just...
Conversely, you friendly.
That's a good life.
That's great.
So, I'll die of heatstroke before you...
Wow.
There's a big shake, though.
Yeah, there we go.
Well, make it.
It is winter at home at the moment, so.
But you have some...
You have some Bitcoin communities also popping up now
in Australia, like, circle economies, right?
And those kinds of things.
In New Zealand as well.
That's what I saw as well.
I didn't see the New Zealand.
New Zealand's a long way from it.
No, I never fly.
I know, I know.
But just in general, my general point is...
The things are...
Like, Madera is special because it's such a small island.
Yeah.
And basically, it's like 200 merchants now or so.
And...
And, like...
It's everywhere.
Yeah.
And 200 is a small number.
Like, that's kind of my point.
Like, you own more 200 merchants and you're like,
you're almost done.
You know what I mean?
And...
But I think it has to start on the small islands of sorts.
And...
It is all kind of community-driven initiatives,
where it's just like, okay, let's go hard.
And if there's a critical mass of Bitcoiners,
I guess that's what I'm trying to say.
You have a critical mass of Bitcoiners.
So it's very strong.
All of them, I would say, right?
Yeah.
You have the bush fashion.
The bush fashion is excellent.
And they can be anywhere from, like...
Well, maybe like four or five a year.
Yeah.
And it's from 50 people to 200 people.
Yeah.
Coming for a weekend.
And they're all in remote towns.
Yeah.
So like, it's not easy to get to, even if it's in your state.
Yeah.
I mean, I told you already, the bush fashion was in part
the inspiration for this, because it's basically...
Coming to the island is a natural filter of like...
Yeah.
You are already committed.
Like, there is no...
You have the built-in proof of work.
Yeah.
Just like...
There is no backing out.
Like, you made the trip.
Not now you're in for the ride.
Yeah.
It's quite surprised the recent one.
There's like a couple of people over from America
at the bush fashion.
Nice.
That's a long weekend trip.
Yeah.
That's a long way.
How many years of bushmasters?
Are you guys doing that?
I think it's like five.
Like, it was...
Yeah.
It was like the first border opening
after the initial COVID lockdowns.
Yeah.
There was...
Twitter personalities.
So William of Roverum and...
Beats you, Shelling Point.
Yeah.
Not these names.
Yeah, they decided to get together.
And then I think...
Yeah.
They'll put it on...
Put it on Twitter.
And then, like, about 28 people turned up.
Yeah.
They just ran, like, a bit of an unconferencing.
Yeah.
But it's very nice.
Like, it's such a good weekend.
Nice.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
That's awesome to see.
I always...
You know, I...
I mean, I consider both of them,
and good friends.
To me, it was always amazing to...
To have kind of the older semester
paying attention to...
Yeah.
To...
To Bitcoin.
That was my first reaction.
Yeah.
When I first met Beats Shelling Point,
it was...
Oh, you're a gray beard.
Literally.
Yeah.
And I met it as a compliment.
Like, it was very cool to see
someone who has been around computers
for a very long time,
really closely paying attention to Bitcoin.
And getting it in there.
Yes.
Understanding it in a deep way.
Because, you know, like, you...
You need a certain level of cognitive flexibility
to destroy your world for you
and rebuild it on Bitcoin.
At that age.
Right.
There's not many people that can manage
at a certain age.
Yeah.
No, it doesn't fit in naturally,
with what people come from.
Yeah.
No, it's...
It's very hard to simply get Bitcoin
just on first contact.
Then you have the...
The built-in annoyance
that there's other people that go here before you.
Yeah, sure.
This doesn't feel bad.
But that's an interesting part
of the merchant adoption that's happening here
that people don't need to have a clue about anything.
And that's really cool to see.
Like, they just...
In more way.
You mean they don't need to have a clue?
Like this.
They don't need to...
In some sense,
the way the onboarding works is that
there is some education that is happening
and there is some explanation
of just don't touch the Bitcoin.
It's going to be...
Yeah, exactly.
...the volume and those kind of things.
But for the merchant themselves,
it's very much like getting a square terminal or whatever.
You know what I mean?
It's like, okay, there's Visa, there's MasterCard,
there's Google Pay,
there's Apple Pay,
there's this thing, there's that thing,
and so on.
And there's Bitcoin.
Yeah.
And especially here.
I don't know, we managed to...
There's always always something.
If you switch on the microphone,
it's like the heavy machinery
will switch on at the same time.
That's just a lot of recording.
And I had a good stuff down at the beach
and somebody just sold the pavement next to it.
Yeah, I just took it actually.
You close the door,
and it was still very...
Oh, it was.
Very much audible.
But what's interesting in Europe is,
especially here in Portable,
I'm not sure if you noticed.
In some shops, it's not as prevalent as in others.
But in some sports shops, for example,
every single fucking bank
and every single fucking kind of
payment range provider has their own terminal.
And so depending on what car you pay...
Oh, with multiple terminals.
They have like six, seven terminals already.
So adding a Bitcoin one with like, you know,
like even the...
So I thought people would maybe use it as a musket one
that comes as like a little handheld thing.
So what Fremadeira handed out is that once...
I think the BDC Paystover team was involved in building these out.
The ones that also support NFC
and like the proper terminals.
Yeah, many merchants have those.
Okay.
And it's just another thing for them.
It's like, it does matter if they have like five or six
or six or seven or whatever.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And it's just depending on people say how they want to pay
to just pull out their right thing.
And that's what I mean with they don't need to have a clue.
They don't need to be full Bitcoin Maxis, you know,
to accept Bitcoin.
And they don't need to, you know,
burn down their own self and the world view just by accepting.
They just accept Bitcoin.
And that's it.
And then they're happy if it goes up a bit.
And it's like less than one percent of their transactions anyway.
Yeah.
It doesn't matter too much.
It's already covered the bills.
Yeah.
So they have accounting issues here or is that no?
No, no, no, no, no, no.
We don't even know what they're saying.
That's what we mean accounting.
Who does that Bitcoin?
That's all they're accounting.
It's like, it's an accounting system.
What do you mean?
It's not...
It accounts for itself every ten minutes.
Yeah.
It's kind of like cash.
Yeah.
And also, yeah, I think legally speaking,
that's how you can do it.
If you don't convert, I'm not sure.
I don't know what it is, right?
It's like a cash payment.
Yeah, it's a cash payment.
And I think the only additional thing,
but I'm not sure.
I'm not sure how it is important to go.
I should know, but I just don't.
I care too little about it for it to ever really read up on it.
But how it usually is is like if you...
If you make a conversion to Fiat in the first twelve months,
then you would be liable to the short term speculative taxes
and those kind of things and couple of gains taxes or those kind of things.
But if you just don't touch it for a while,
then all that goes out of the window
because you're actually not speculating on it.
Yeah.
And so you can actually account for it.
That's like a cash...
Incoming cash payment and so on.
And it's just like this account where cash is in it.
That's it.
Or something at this point in time.
Just treating it as something I'm going to hold on to to say if it's perfect.
Yeah.
And to be honest,
I saw this in Costa Rica as well
in some other of the circular economies.
I think that's why it works so well in the...
How should I put it?
Less organized countries.
In Switzerland and Germany,
the German people, for example,
are an interesting kind of people.
It's not only historically,
but also just in general.
Like when we ran the...
I mean, it's still ongoing.
I'm just not really involved anymore.
But the German speaking podcast, yeah.
We legit had people reach out to us,
asking us how they should declare
the podcasting 2.0 boosts
or now we would say SAPs.
How should they account for the SAPs
in their tax declaration?
And we were like, you know,
you can't...
No, I can't say.
We are legally not allowed to give this advice.
But if you have...
Yeah.
You know, if you onboard those kind of people
then it's just going to be very hard.
Yeah.
And in Portugal in general,
they know how to have a cash and do the things
and what to actually care about
and what to not care about and so on.
And so I think that's in part why it really works.
Where it's just a...
They are set up for this type of economy
and they just make it work.
And yeah, they're just happy to be accommodating
to the customer.
And it's also what's really nice, I think,
is people are actually super, super, super surprised
how easy it is to accept it.
Yeah.
Like it's just you punch in, care code,
green jackmarks everywhere and it's done.
And it's super fast.
So...
I got that a lot.
It's for new merchants that just got onboarded.
They're just like always, you know,
you help them a little bit to figure it out,
then you show them.
And they're just like...
The face is always like, wow,
like they're super surprised how well it is.
Well, when you're a merchant as well,
you're more aware of the actual settling times
behind credit cards and stuff.
So there's the, you know, 25, 30 seconds
when you're clearing the transaction at the till.
But then you also have the two,
like two-month weight of this.
That helps here as well.
Everyone hates credit cards.
Yeah.
You see a lot of...
You see a lot of shops.
You see a lot of tourists are going to be here
with credit cards and stuff.
Yes.
But you still have lots of little shops
and lots of little, like, cafeterias and so on
that have these signs where just there's credit cards on them
and they're all, like, they only accept cash.
And...
Some big-body gym was very strict.
Exactly.
And some of these people,
we actually manage all more than Bitcoin,
because they hate the credit cards because of the fees.
And of the...
How cumbersome it is and everything.
Like, you get completely raped by the credit card companies
if you are a small merchant.
It's just the way it is.
And that's why they, like...
Yeah, again, they have all these signage,
which I always love to see.
You have all the payment providers and the credit cards
and the big red crosses through them and so on.
So that's really cool.
Just open source.
Yeah.
But I think on the e-cash side,
actually the end-consumer payments
won't be the next big push.
I think it's all going to be...
Services.
Replacing APIs, in some sense,
or replacing the username and password stuff.
That's my hope, at least.
I think so.
Like, it's...
It's not clear to me how it plays out yet.
But I...
It makes a lot of sense that it will play out there.
But the UI of just...
Even with the...
How do we get everybody to have the e-cash?
I mean, it's classic checking out the thing, right?
Yeah.
But even with kind of the...
I mean, now, like...
Obviously, everyone is paying for agents and compute
and all those kinds of things and so on.
And paying everybody for all of them.
And everyone hates...
I mean, it's the Netflix problem, kind of.
You know?
It's like, okay, there's one streaming service.
That's fantastic.
You pay for one streaming service.
You pay whatever 20 bucks a month.
It's fine.
You can watch everything.
All right.
And then there's 10.
And then there's 10 or 15.
And then you're fucked.
And I think that's what we are seeing with all these services.
It's like, okay.
Do you have an open AI subscription?
Fine.
All right.
But then you have a thrott big,
and five other things pop up and so on.
And it's like, okay.
Like, you probably don't want to sign up.
Yeah.
I mean, this is one of the differences.
I make me go for open ads.
And so I can just move between all the different tools.
But then...
I go for open ads.
Very nice.
It would be nice to just hold money and then pay for the ones
that I want when I need to use them.
I mean, that's the idea of...
A froucester and paper cube.
So...
Yeah, we...
I mean, right now...
It's probably really bad with the Longmore High.
Two meters.
I mean, both listeners will...
We'll be fine with it.
I always have to remind myself.
Like, no one cares.
That was listening.
No one cares.
It's like, no one cares.
Who cares?
But...
Actually...
And a surprising number of people care.
There is...
But I also get the right...
In a sense of...
Like, I...
All the negative feedback I got so far was about audio quality.
And I think the main issue is...
If the audio quality is shit...
It wouldn't happen.
Very hard to listen in your car.
Because with earphones, it usually doesn't...
Yeah.
It's not a big show for people.
It's actually B.C. Show and post.
He found it hard to listen to on his bike.
Yeah.
But if you have special environments like...
There's people that watch fucking podcasts on TV.
I'll never understand it.
But...
Then bad audio quality.
Like, I'm a big headphones kind of guy.
So I don't care.
And also, you know, like...
I don't have to re-list into it because I usually remember what I said.
But I think...
Anyway, the...
I think it's super stupid.
Especially for things that you don't always need.
To be forced into a monthly subscription.
Sign up KYC thing.
And I think everyone...
More people than ever are hating that now.
Well, it stops you trying stuff as well.
Yes. Exactly.
Yeah.
And I feel like more people than ever are frustrated with that.
And E-cash actually fixes this.
Like, that's actually what, you know, routes are in pay-per-cue.
And everyone is trying to do it.
I mean, in terms of like bringing...
A.I. is such a good...
Like, just impactful thing.
Once you actually start paying for it.
And you realize what you can do with it.
You realize, oh, this is worth money.
And it's a good thing to them.
Actually, it's a Bitcoin.
We're not doing this very Bitcoin.
It's because it makes it easy if you just swap between all these different advisors.
You can use whatever you want.
Yeah.
You're not locked in forever.
You can just pay us when you need to pay us.
It's actually a nicer experience.
Yeah.
But you've got products that you can bolt on the back of it.
That's purely digital.
That works very nicely with that.
It's a payment system.
Yeah.
I mean, that's where things are heading, right?
Where you have multi...
Like, you don't always want to use the most expensive agent.
No.
Like, if you want to...
My go-to example is always, if you have a merge conflict
and you want to resolve the merge conflict,
there's special agents that can do that really, really well.
Or also, like, if you just want to do some registration or whatever.
Like, you have special tasks where...
It's more economical to use a...
a number model or a smaller model or what have you.
Yeah.
I mean, that's just like how any company works.
You know, like, you don't want to...
throw your 400 bucks in our specialists to whatever.
Like, you know, clean up the door.
Yeah.
Make coffee.
Yeah.
So, that's just...
Yeah.
Regular economics.
And I mean, you know, cursor and those kind of like all in one system.
That's what they do right now, where it's basically...
You have certain kind of...
A certain budget.
And they have automatic agent selection and so on.
And if it selects the most expensive thinking model
so whatever, it will actually eat up your budget really quickly.
Yeah.
And then you have to pay as you go and all those kind of things.
Of course, all of that's credit card-based.
Do you...
I haven't kept track of it.
But is it still the case?
When was it?
Was it when O3 came out or something?
That you had to KYC for using the most powerful models?
That's still the case.
I don't mean I've ever provided...
Say, like, driving license and stuff.
That would have been, like, at least the light KYC for credit cards.
Yeah.
And stuff like that.
I don't know if it's then available via it.
Yeah.
I mean, they have it.
They have light KYC always just with the payment alone.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, but I think just in general, like, especially on the NOSTA sign,
what I love about NOSTA is that you don't have to do...
Use a name password, sign up for a new thing at all.
And I think that's so cool.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's so cool.
And it's also not a...
Well, you also, because you've got your own identity,
you log into an app and then...
Stuff's there.
Yeah, stuff's there.
And that's kind of...
That's also the idea of NIP16, NIP61, that just your...
Your e-cache is there with you as well.
And you have...
Like you said before, like, it stops you from trying stuff.
And the main idea of having like,
cash you follow you around,
is that you can actually try stuff.
And it's kind of, you know, like, it's pocket money.
Like, you should be fine to just lose it all the time.
Like, if it's gone, it's gone.
Yeah, I just...
But really, it's a bit more valuable.
It's actually somewhere in the middle.
Actually, it's actually not really gone, you know.
Like, the mint can always rug and recover.
Well, it's running costly.
But, yeah, I think that's why things are heading in terms of,
like, speaking to the chicken-ack problem that you mentioned,
like, how do you give people the e-cache that you would need to, you know,
like, make a permissionless API call, basically.
Because that's what we're talking about.
That's what cash enables.
Cash enables permissionless interaction in the sense,
because you actually...
You have to payment.
You have to payment up front, basically.
Like, that's how every corner store, every laminate stand, everything works.
Well, yeah, the consumer takes the risk.
Yeah.
The very brief window risk, is it, well, but...
Yeah.
Yeah, because I was looking...
So I was looking at doing maybe some, like, e-cache-based routing stuff myself.
And I was like, oh, but how do I...
I don't know how long the run's going to go for,
and I don't know how big the query is.
And I thought it's, like, one of the routes to guys.
And I got here and he was just like, oh, yeah, we just take a big payment
and then give you the change.
Yeah.
And I was like, why...
Why didn't I think of that?
Oh, so you were a shop.
Oh, I get it.
Perfect.
That's how I should work, isn't it?
Yeah, that's how I should work.
And then I used the consumer to take that initial risk.
Well, you're covered.
You can run the job.
Yeah.
I get the job back plus my change.
Yeah.
Super.
Yeah.
Again, I'm also very unsure how it will play out.
But I...
My hope is...
I think this is true quite a lot of Bitcoin stuff, right?
Is that you don't need to convince everybody that it's about Bitcoin.
You just convince them that they should do this thing,
that they can do now.
And Bitcoin comes along for the ride.
Yeah.
Or Nostya comes along for the ride.
Yeah.
And E-catch comes along for the ride.
We don't have to just sell everything on an ideological basis.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
No, I think it's a beautiful stuff.
It's the better solution and it's also...
It's also...
What...
When I'm really annoyed about...
When I listen to the Silicon Valley Bros talk about all those kind of things.
Is...
They ignore...
Is it because you're listening to them?
I think that's...
It's a mistake number one.
I mostly annoyed about myself that I kind of forced myself to listen to them a little bit at least.
No, but you...
You kind of want to have a finger on the pulse of what the Silicon Valley thinking is because...
It is what's kind of shape...
Large parts of the ecosystem.
And...
What I think is interesting is that they...
Don't even realize that many of the problems that Bitcoin has identified are actual problems.
And for example, like building out a service that you charge other people for and so on.
In their world, it's very easy.
You just set up Stripe.
Yeah.
Okay, what do you need to get set up with Stripe?
Yeah.
You need...
A whole mattress.
You need a passport or something similar.
You need to have an identity document and so on.
That excludes like...
Half the world.
Yeah.
And you need to be...
You need to be in a jurisdiction that's not sanctioned and so on and so forth.
And you can be the platform at any time.
So if you're in Silicon Valley, that works really well.
That's fantastic.
It's the easiest way and I don't want to discourage people to get set up with Stripe.
That's fine.
If it works for you, that's all.
But what I would love to see, what I hope that E-Cache enables, like...
And Noster as well, when it's just like...
You're at 12 feet.
I have to think about Aaron's words like once a day, just...
In part, because his quote is on my wall and everything.
Yeah.
But he was...
And I told the story before.
But he was like, you know, 12 or so when he popped up in some IRC channel
and started working on RSS.
And, you know, these people exist today.
You have 12-year-olds, 14-year-olds, and so on.
Like, Peter Landles was another guy, you know, where he just started building out his first websites and so on.
And wanted to accept money from people that are using his websites.
And he was like 13 or 14 or whatever.
And he had to, you know, convince his dad to sign up with some payment provider and all those kind of things.
Yeah.
And E-Cache and Noster make that really easy.
Where you can...
You can just do this things.
You can just literally do stuff.
And you have an N-POP.
You're separable, basically.
You have an N-POP.
You can...
You can charge for things.
And that's kind of...
You can just charge for things.
Exactly.
And you don't have to understand how everything works.
And you don't have to be a bit gone maxi or anything.
But it just works.
And you don't have to ask anyone for permission.
So that's kind of my...
Many people that are actually in the San Francisco strata,
they are running into these issues now.
Like most famously David Heinemey Hansen, the exchange from Rubin Rez and so on.
Where he just by building out competition to Gmail
and not being willing to give the Apple tax of like 30% or whatever it is,
he got the platform.
And he is completely fed up now.
Like I just listened to his Rails keynote two days ago.
Completely fed up with a begging for permission.
That's how he phrased it.
And he really wants to make Rails a framework
to both permissionless technology in some sense.
So he's like 80% there.
I would be working on this.
So I think that's interesting that even the most privileged people...
I mean, you know, he's a multi-millionaire.
So even he runs into the issue of the platforming
and the issue of having to back for permission
just because you're developing your wrong hand.
You're developing a really good email client.
It's on the early enemy.
Even like less about the platforming in a sense.
The whole point that we're told about Silicon Valley being a great place
is because of all the innovation and the trying stuff
and move fast and break things.
If you need like a hundred grand to get going.
If you can just build something, there's already a network effect.
There's already the ability to save money.
There's all just there hair and frown.
You know, your cost to experiment and to do new things goes way down.
I mean, right here, just doing...
You know, I was a little bit scared of the idea that,
okay, I'm going to build something new every week.
Like, I don't even build.
You know, I look kind of like a play developer at the moment.
But you can build.
You can build stuff when you share it.
We only introduce this kind of little rule because of wipecoding
because it's actually possible.
Otherwise, it would be insanity.
But the point of it is kind of to...
It's a constraint that requires you to kind of really dig deep
and think hard.
What do you want to have exist in some sense?
Because it doesn't have to be polished.
It doesn't even have to work.
Just like try to get the idea across with like a first prototype.
Or what have you...
Yeah, but yeah, let's see how it goes.
It's the first time we're actually trying to enforce it and so on.
But we'll see.
But the thing you mentioned about what kind of the cost of...
The cost of starting something up.
That's why I keep coming back to the analogy of ElaminateStand.
The pre-bitcoin, it was basically impossible to do ElaminateStand in cyberspace.
Because you had to go to your dad and ask to...
Please set me up with Stripe and depending on which country you're from,
it's actually impossible and all those kind of things.
And now you can actually do that.
And I really hope that we see more of that.
Not everyone loves the analogy, by the way.
I don't know why, I think, because ElaminateStand is like child's play.
But I think child's play is fine.
It's like, if you're literally a child and you build something useful...
Like ElaminateStand.
That is you charge money.
Charge money and do something with it.
And I think it's possible now.
So that's my hope that we're going to see if many ElaminateStands.
But the issue, of course, is that...
What is actually...
There aren't that many things that ask cars in cyberspace.
There aren't water and lemonade and so on.
It's very easy to sell.
Everyone needs it all the time.
It is, in the real world.
Yeah.
I mean, I think the difference is in cyberspace,
you can sell services to people that can be consumed there and then...
Yeah.
And we talked about this a bunch on the good stuff podcast.
I think we're going to relocalize a lot of stuff.
Yeah.
There's almost all the software that people consume around the world
comes out of one small part of America.
And that just seems quite strange.
Yeah.
Because those people at best can only build stuff
for a very generic use case that they understand.
Yeah.
And it doesn't reflect most places around the world.
Yeah.
So if you take all the intelligence that they've got
or any abilities and methodology,
is coding systems, all this stuff.
Yeah.
And just make that freely available to anybody.
I don't know why I would ever buy it from them.
Yeah, sure.
I mean, I think we see that already now with people in part
moving away from AWS again.
Like the DJ talked about this, for example.
They moved their whole cloud infrastructure to their own bare metal.
And in part, again, like one part is the permissionless part.
You actually don't have to back for permission to run your own software.
Yeah.
The other part is it's actually more cost-effective.
Yeah.
If you know what you're doing and if you can set it up and so on,
it's in the long run.
It's cheaper to run your own.
And I think on the Bitcoin side, for example,
it's kind of similar.
Yeah.
There's many, many people that run notes and have home servers
and all those kind of things.
Yeah.
And in terms of lemonade standing that what you can actually do,
very easily now, I mean, we don't have all this boat out here
that's on it.
It's going to take still a while and blah, blah, blah.
But at least in theory, it's very easy now to charge
for your access compute, to charge for your access storage.
Lots of shit coins were created for this kind of use cases.
And Ekash makes it very easy now, very easy,
where you just kind of, you can rent your access compute for inference
or you're out just storage for storage.
Yeah.
So yeah, my hope is that we'll see more of that.
We kind of see the first inklinks with paid relays
and also paid blossom servers, those kind of things.
And I think it will be, if we want to switch to,
like this is that, you know, everyone agrees the internet is fucked.
If we want to unfuck the internet,
people will have to pay for it.
Which means that anybody will have to agree the internet.
It's fucked, unfortunately.
So again, I don't know if that's going to be like a
widely held normal belief.
I mean, I agree with you.
How is so?
I don't think most people think that the current site guys
is at least that, I don't know, Polaristations at an all-time high
and TikTok is not necessarily a good for society.
But I don't think people see that as the internet is fucked.
There is like, maybe there's like slight new ones,
but people hate social media right now.
It's a cool thing, but you hate social media.
Which makes me love it even more now.
I mean, social media is highly effective at some point in the past
of actually connecting people peer-to-peer.
I mean, most of that aspect of social media has been taken away, unfortunately.
Except in Noster, where everything seems to be more peer-to-peer.
But I could imagine that people would get into
thinking the internet is fucked because they hate social media more than they would do
about the internet being fucked or being able to pay for it.
Okay, fair enough.
I mean, I'm so isolated and far down in my bubble.
I have no idea what regular people think about the internet.
I think for most people, the regular internet is probably,
in Europe at least, is like WhatsApp and that's probably Instagram maybe.
And I would like that.
I feel like it's just a massive missed opportunity for what we could have had.
Yeah, sure.
Are you wondering?
Yeah, no.
I mean, that's still why I have such high hopes for Noster,
because Noster, to me, represents what the internet could have been.
It's still, again, like it has its flaws, it's imperfect and so on.
But embedding on a native level identity and money into the internet is a big deal.
It's a really big deal.
Not only the internet and money, but cryptographic identity and cryptography at the base layer.
Everything is signed.
That alone removes the middleman, basically.
Yeah, a larger open stuff is supposed to ask for it.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
I have a very hard time kind of, I don't know.
I'm just always blown away by how regular people,
like sometimes when I'm, I don't know, at a plane or at a, like,
whatever, public place where you have the ability to look into other people's phones.
I sometimes look and I'm always, I'm always amazed how people kind of use their phones
and what they do on, on their phones and so on.
And it's just like it doesn't, I know I'm an outlier.
I'm well aware.
Why is your boss inside?
So what's going on here?
I watched an old lady on the last flight I was on,
for like 45 minutes or so.
I watched her rearrange her apps on the various home screen screen.
Not only that, she also went in all the settings and cleared all the temporary files
and caches and so on.
That was interesting.
And she was really, really, really cleaning up her phone.
And I think she had like, it was like a Samsung whatever stock thing.
And I think she had like four or so apps installed in addition to that.
So it was like, like, you know, there was nothing to clean.
So that was interesting.
But no, I mean, for more, it's the big apps that everyone knows.
That's what I usually see.
It's Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, WhatsApp.
I think that's it.
I mean, I mean, I think this is probably by what I'm thinking when they say,
I'm not sure people would say it's fact is that they're quite happy.
They have these big networks.
So they don't stop them at the moment, although I don't know.
I mean, we've got this new bell that's supposed to be coming in at the end of the year in Australia
to just stop using like almost anything.
Yeah, yeah.
Social media, but then it was also YouTube and then it was news.
Who knows?
Yeah, that's what I meant with kind of drilling.
The site guys, right?
Like in the UK, they had the child protection law that forced everyone
to basically scan their passport to watch YouTube videos.
Yeah.
And yeah, I mean, I expect there'll be a big pushback.
I mean, I know, you know, jokingly just say to the kids,
well, government doesn't want you to watch YouTube anymore, so obviously you can't.
You can't look at any videos today.
You know, you're going to set them up properly early.
Yeah.
No, they should hate.
It's still like a solid hate for government authorities early on.
Yeah.
But I dare say my kids could trivially work around this, you know.
I mean, that's when we signed the UK as well, right?
Like VPN users spiked by, I don't know, 180,000% or something ridiculous like that.
Exactly.
There's always a pushback.
So I don't know quite exactly what they're going to do, what that will look like when it comes in
and what the pushback will be.
But I imagine it will just be a lot more people that do care about the internet.
Yeah.
Maybe you see it as well.
Yeah.
I mean, we see it already now, like coming back to the...
So maybe I'm wrong.
E-cash.
Like, why would someone use E-cash as opposed to an open router subscription as well?
I mean, we see it already.
Like in the current cohort, there's like a good handful of people that are very principled
about their AI use.
And again, they do it out of principle.
So it's kind of, I'm not going to hand any of my identifying information to anthropic or open AI or what have you.
And I think with early Bitcoin use, we saw the same where it's just like unprincipled people
refusing to use credit cards or other payment systems and so on.
And like even going as far as killing off all their bank accounts, killing off all their, you know,
fiat holdings and access to fiat and so on.
It's been very hardcore about it, just out of ideological reasons.
And I think the other side that we always see is you have no other choice.
You're forced to use Bitcoin, you're forced to use a VPN, for example, you know.
Also, like if you're in a country where the government restricts the access, you're forced to use a VPN.
And I think this will just continue from both of these sides where I don't know.
Like we see it in the app stores as well, right?
Where some people will be forced to sideload apps or use something like App Store or similar to use a permissionless app store.
Yeah, and yeah, that's kind of asking for permission is not a good pattern.
It comes to your eye stuff.
So if we can build the version where you don't have to ask for permission, they will just be better.
So I may have to just rescind my earlier point, but maybe everybody does realize the internet is fucked.
I mean, it's more that they're about to realize the internet is really fucked because the hammers coming down even harder.
Let me also rephrase my argument slightly.
Ten years ago, no one talked about these issues.
No one.
It wasn't part of the public discourse that there is an issue with big platforms, with app stores, with governments,
which they access to the internet and so on.
Like 10, 15 years ago, it was not an issue.
Now I feel like it's everywhere in almost every country.
It's the flavor of it might be different.
Like again, in the US, for example, there was lots of payment related stuff.
Like lots of companies, de-platformed by credit card companies and so on.
Like in the gaming world, for example, there was like, most of the many of the things came out of the gaming world, for example,
might be refusing to pay up all the 30% tax.
There was a big deal and a big lawsuit and so on.
Then Valve apparently being forced by the credit card companies to kill all the adult quote-unquote content in steam in their gaming platform and so on.
And this was all payment driven.
Like in the US, it seems to be like the censorship is payment driven.
A lot of it.
In other countries, it's under like, protect the kids, like in the UK and so on.
And just, I don't know.
I feel like maybe this becomes so much of the speech, move to online and online platforms.
And it can be restricted more easily or it's more obvious.
Yeah, it's a bit harder and easier.
Yeah.
But maybe that's it.
I feel like, over the last 10-15 years, it changed a lot and it's more of a part of the public conversation in some sense.
Yeah.
All these internet things.
Who knows again?
Like I'm so deep in my...
I'm so...
My bubble is so well curated.
Exactly.
It's one of those areas.
I'm probably the worst person to talk about.
I know.
I think it's like you and as well.
It's not immediately obvious to me that everybody else would be feeling though.
But that's been like a big shift, giving it good.
But we should fix it, right?
So...
Here we are, right?
Yolo mode.
Fixing the internet.
Trying to.
Trying to fix parts of the internet.
Yeah.
It's a big task.
But it's also like, I want to reflect for a minute or two.
One of the similar things, like I mentioned before,
like just paying in Bitcoin all the time here and how normally it is.
And it just works.
And you don't ever have to think about it.
You don't marvel at the fact that it works basically.
Yeah.
And like we've come really far.
We've come really far.
Like for me, paying in Bitcoin every day and people are still shitting on lightning
and other things that Bitcoin doesn't work and so on.
Bitcoin wouldn't work.
I would literally starve.
So it really, really works.
Yeah.
And the same can be said about Noster.
It's, it's flaws and so on and all those kind of things.
But the fact that we were able in a relatively short amount of time,
build a complete Twitter replacement basically,
that actually works.
Yeah.
Then many people, like dozens, dozens of people.
That dozens of it.
Should we cross down to the heat zone?
Let's try.
Because I have enough of these like pesky little lawn mowers out there.
Let's, let's walk into traffic that makes it, that will make it better.
Yeah.
No, but, but I.
I've been in Noster only for two and a half years now or so or something like that.
And, and I don't need to use anything else.
Again, I like my filter bubble.
You know, like it's, it's just, yeah.
I don't want to go out into the wild and actually read the news or, you know,
talk to Normie.
So what have you?
But the fact that it works is amazing.
And it really works.
It really works.
We haven't replaced YouTube yet.
We haven't replaced whatever Netflix and other things yet and so on.
It's not all of those things are broken.
Yeah.
But we managed to replace Twitter for a couple of dozen of people at least.
Like I would say for it.
Maybe a couple of hundred, like a hundred thousand maybe.
I don't know.
I mean, there's whole swaths of Noster that you know about.
Well, exactly.
Yeah.
Japanese Noster.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Every now and again, you look on the world bean.
You're like the shit tons of Japanese people here.
And, and, and like the hardcore ones you don't even see because they,
they geo block all the relays.
Yeah.
You have to, you have to switch you VPN to Japanese to be able to see the part of Noster.
Which I think is very interesting.
But that said, that was the original promise of Noster that you would have kind of these communities
self-organize and organically appear.
And you wouldn't have one central server be in control of all the things that you wouldn't have one global view.
And that's what we see happening.
The norm here is the traffic stops for you, isn't it?
Yeah, sometimes.
Yeah.
It's like it depends on how touristy you look.
Yeah.
Well, I'm walking around with this Austrian guy.
Yeah, so it's, they, they, clearly I can't.
You know, I kind of look like a terrorist, so they better stop.
But yeah, no, I think my point is just like we, we, we are often too close to all this stuff.
And just purely critical.
Like the engineering mind is just mostly critical, right?
You know what is still broken and how the thing can fall down and so on.
But it's amazing what we were able to build just in a, you know, like Noster is like three short years basically.
And it's like no funding.
It's like sort of like no funding.
Yeah.
Well, any of the other stuff is going on in all these different things.
Compared to the things that are very little funny.
Yeah, talk to me about that a little bit.
Like you come from the business slash finest rod a little bit.
Like you know a lot about it.
And you, you, you, you are so bad at it.
You, you know more about it than, than, than most people.
So how do you, in terms of, yeah, let's talk about funding maybe.
Like how, what, what, how do you think this could be solved in long term?
Because I think right now it is an issue.
And I say that as someone who is, you know, like close to the funding question.
I don't think funding is the problem because I think it implies the wrong thing.
Okay.
Which is weird because I just said funding, right?
I think it's great that it's grown to what it has without so much.
So when I say that is, I think we just need to bootstrap stuff.
Like I actually don't think so.
Yeah.
I think what we need is lots of useful services that just happen to use Noster and happen to use Bitcoin.
But then wouldn't find that you charge people.
Yeah, you charge people.
Yeah.
But that's why it has to be useful.
That also, yeah.
Okay. Fair enough.
And we live in a world where a lot of stuff is free.
That's the issue.
To me, it seems like, to me, it seems like there it needs to maybe,
should we walk down here?
Maybe it might be.
I don't know.
Yeah.
You can.
Maybe we'll be traffic at all times.
Feet in the ocean.
It's, it's, it's, it's paradoxical because now we're following the only traffic there is.
Yeah.
It should be.
It should work out in the long run.
You see me going around on the little stand-up paddle boards around here.
It looks nice.
Yeah, it's very nice.
Now let's, let's, let's walk all the way to the fork, maybe.
Yeah.
Let's see if we can do it.
And then, then, then, I probably will be like very much,
death by heat stroke in the situation.
But we'll see.
We'll see.
Well, we're going to make it.
So I kind of think this is the, um,
benefit of AI really is that a lot of the actual,
the cost of developing these new solutions, these new systems and things and finding
like useful things that you could do is going to go right down.
Yeah.
And so then the question is, oh, why would anybody pay for something?
What?
Because you're solving a pain point for somebody.
Yeah.
So half the problem we have with the generation of software is that people just build stuff
because they really like software and the people that really like software,
the only people that can build software.
Yeah.
So all of a sudden, you've got a whole stack of people that could never do this before.
You can now come into this area and build, you know, a ship version of something
that somebody else can fix.
Yeah.
But if you build something, there's a bit ropey and insecure, but you made money out of it.
Somebody else can come and build a better version that is more secure,
but we just build on it.
I think all that comes back down to just the cost of that experimentation needs to be really low.
And there needs to be some sort of network that you can launch it into.
Yeah.
But then every single one of those useful services builds on that network.
And so with Noster, AI, eCache, Bitcoin, they all just come together in that system.
They're like, well, we just need to keep putting useful information and useful services out.
Yeah.
On this platform.
Yeah.
And then I think, and if people are getting paid, you don't really need the funding so much.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
We shouldn't need funding, but like, yeah.
Yeah.
It's, I mean, BitChat is a great example in terms of providing a useful app that still works if everything else breaks down,
because it just, you can use Bluetooth.
And so if, even if the government shuts down everything, you Bluetooth thing will still work.
And you can at least, if you're together at the protest that would have you communicate.
And the neat thing about BitChat is, of course, the Trojan Horse mechanic
that if there isn't a connectivity, it will use Noster to allow you to further communicate and so on.
And I think we'll see a bunch of those things where people use Noster and use ECache without even really knowing it.
We saw this already with podcasting 2.0 and also in large part with every time new people came into Noster,
there were people receiving Saps, and they had no idea what Saps were or that it was Bitcoin and so on.
And I think this will just kind of continue to happen, but it's, I think the hard part will be to figure out what to sell.
Like what it relates to what you said before that most people are used to the internet being free and all these services being free.
Yeah.
No one has an issue with paying for Uber, paying for Airbnb, paying for like everyone understands that these things are scarce and you have to pay for them.
But it's interesting because you mentioned also the AI stuff that it's very worthwhile to pay for it once you use it.
And it is actually compute is an actually scarce resource.
And I think storage is as well.
I mean people are perfectly fine with paying for whatever their Google or Apple thing to like you get free whatever how many gigabytes and if you want to keep your photos and your videos,
you just pay the monthly fee and then you have the free start and then they turn the screws and then it's not free, but people pay.
Sure. I mean that's going to Silicon Valley model and yeah, I mean I would be interested to see statistics on what we have now because we do have paid relays, we do have paid services and so on.
I have no idea how many people actually what the numbers are, how many people pay for it and like also for image and video hosting and so on like media hosting.
I mean definitely trying to like get, you know, if you've had several years of Google photos, trying to get the data out of that and into some useful form.
I mean, you have to rely on that and then just to get it out to be able to realize that nothing's ever getting backed up.
But you know, we could have solutions to this.
That could be provisioned by like multiple different people.
Yeah, absolutely.
It requires a lot of engineering of course.
Like it's like Google also didn't build this out in a day.
No, unfortunately.
And they had lots of funding and they made lots of money on top of it.
But it's kind of nice like again, if you have like the open protocols for it, you can just build on top of blossom for that.
You know, you don't necessarily need to do all the file system replication stuff yourself.
We can pick that up and use it.
So having a lot of these blocks there.
I mean, I guess to go back to the funding thing when I was answering that.
I was thinking of it from a term of like, so you talk about Silicon Valley type funding.
Yeah.
Which I think implies that I'm going to make this big thing that takes over the moment.
Yeah.
And I think that model isn't entirely incorrect.
Obviously a lot of the funding we see in Noster is more open source developer funding.
Yeah.
Which I think is is probably a different thing.
Like because there is a lot of this stuff that just does need to exist and then be reusable by others.
But it's just, they do hails need to fit into business models.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's trying to figure out what those are.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a very hard problem.
It's also, I mean, I talked to Pablo about this in the past.
And also kind of a part of the idea of sovereign engineering from the get go was kind of to, to, to hopefully together in dialogue and through experimentation figure out what some business models could be.
But we very quickly kind of came to the conclusion that everything in Noster is just still way too small.
Yeah.
And, and even if you have money flowing through the system and it's like on the one side it's small on the other side it also kind of isn't because it is the largest Bitcoin circle economy that we have in the world.
We're just kind of amazing, like in terms of, in terms of, of, of, of the amount of microtransactions that are happening on, on Noster is like it's mind blown.
Like the numbers are, are quite insane for, you know, like, again, like a couple of months ago, basically, like it barely worked.
You know what I mean?
Like saps are a relatively new thing and so on.
And, and, and yeah, so it's, it's, it's probably both a little bit bigger than most people would think.
But also in terms of actually building profitable businesses and top of it, it's still way too small and like it's, yeah, I don't know.
So that was kind of our conclusion and then we just decided to focus more on the experimentation and ideation part and not on the like what could the business model be kind of thing.
And maybe AI changes that maybe AI with kind of making it very easy to access various kinds of compute without the need for 25 different accounts.
Like maybe maybe that's something like having a thin Noster layer around various scars resources is something that could actually work.
I also think, yeah, I don't know if you're thinking the same way I am at the moment, but it's one thing that me and Andy talk about a lot is just like maybe like the Bitcoin, the E cash, the Noster stuff is all actually just incidental to the business.
It's like, you know, like you're, I don't know, maybe you're a bad example because you're very just in the middle of all of this stuff.
But it's some, you know, there's lots of ways to earn money and also be on Noster.
And that just happens to be like where you communicate and how you communicate a bunch of things or how you advertise stuff.
Explain it somewhere.
What I'm thinking is that there's plenty of businesses that you can have that are just profitable businesses.
Oh, and you're also on Noster.
And I think like all the people that are selling soap and wine and other things on Noster.
It's a start, right?
You know, the reason there is, they can come along and they will actually make money.
They will make more money than somebody that sells.
Oh, they would like cheap quips and zaps.
I don't know.
Maybe not you.
But the soap, the one artist.
Yeah, so mine.
Of course.
But is it about art or whatever?
Yeah.
I was surprised to find out this man actually because it was a very feminine sounding mint name.
No offense.
But he actually shared the numbers in terms of how many things he posted on Twitter and tried to sell.
And he made like one sale on Twitter or something.
And Noster was something ridiculous.
Like I don't know like 40 or 50 or whatever in like no time.
That's an interesting data point in and of itself.
Yeah, exactly.
It's like the internet, right?
It's not like there's been no money made on the internet.
Yeah, sure.
The internet necessarily that makes the money.
You sort of wonder if we're, you know, we overdoing it trying to figure out like what are all the.
That's a nice one.
What are all the nice like compute friendly or virtual business models that work.
Almost as though we're trying to like capture something.
That should just be free anyway because everyone's kind of running their own stuff.
Yeah.
And maybe the key is then just go back and say like what do people actually value?
What do they use?
Why don't we just sell them that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And maybe Noster is just the most frictionless way of getting it.
Because that's what I feel like in terms of when I, when I owe people money,
like if we go like lunch somewhere and so on and it's just like someone pays and like,
yeah, just set me on us.
Yeah.
It's the easiest way by far.
It's just like, I mean, if you're just hanging out with Bitcoin,
it's like that's the least friction because you as a receiver,
you don't have to do anything and even as a sender,
it's literally one time.
Yeah.
It's literally one time.
And maybe because the people that we listed before with, you know, like,
fire water.
Sorry.
That's why it's not day like you.
They're a great case.
No, but the soap miner let them in.
There's all those people that sell, again, pionilane wines and so on.
They're selling regular high quality products to other Bitcoiners.
And they want to sell two Bitcoiners.
They want to sell exclusively for Bitcoin.
And not seriously the easiest way to do it.
And as far as I know, most people actually just kind of do the amps and saps and stuff.
It's just like because it's a trust relationship anyway.
You know, like, you're not, you're not going to get scammed probably.
It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's no one's best interest to get scammed here.
Yeah.
Well, there's a different sort of trust lab that's filled up because you have these common interests.
Yeah.
The fact to be hanging around with internet friends for years.
Yeah.
But I mean, I mean, that's a good point.
We should be looking at is just, but I spend quite a lot of time working on this with stat work.
But kind of, there's a lot of businesses that make money and are highly inefficient.
Don't work very well.
And AI can't automate an awful lot of tasks.
Yeah.
I think we should be looking very carefully.
Like, okay, well, how do we start buying businesses that exist that are profitable?
And then just stripping costs now.
And I think this could just be a great way of like having my little Bitcoin businesses that are Bitcoin businesses.
They just businesses that happen to provide services in the real world.
They'll accept Bitcoin because they happen to be run by Bitcoin.
And do you think it will be Bitcoiners that help kind of make this business the way I think Bitcoin should get involved?
And would you just kind of in terms of what's your, what's your vision for that?
The savings that you're able to make just buy Bitcoin with that and turn those things into small.
Yeah.
I mean, this is a strategy for the whole premise of what we talk about on other stuff.
We have this value curve.
Now you catch a curve.
Just like what happens is somebody comes along, you buy an AI.
You buy a company, you take out all the cost of that company.
You create a massive amount of competition.
The competition comes in easily or margin because there was nothing that was defensible.
It's just a straight automation work.
So then the cost of the whole thing goes down and you kind of stuck.
So you have, in fact, you don't really have like a long-term business model,
but you have an excellent arbitrage.
Probably about five years time.
Yeah.
Well, you could own these businesses, take out a lot of cost, provide a good service.
And then just bank the money into Bitcoin.
Yeah.
But then you still have the business at the end of it.
Like, normally it hasn't done as well.
But it's paid off because of the Bitcoin.
Is this already happening in some businesses that you're aware of?
Or is it pure theory for now?
No, it's starting.
There's like a couple, but not.
It's not widespread and it's not done a scale.
Yeah.
I know there's people that are very interested in doing a scale.
But then I think start not at scale.
Yeah.
And then the question is, like, do you start by starting the business from scratch?
Should you start by going and buying somebody and then sending it around?
Yeah.
I know from like, say my point of view, Australia is not like, say if you're in the US,
you could probably just buy somebody, fire everybody.
Yeah.
I didn't really fit how I would like to do business.
Yeah.
It's like acquiring somebody to it.
So I'm probably more in the camp of starting businesses and then running them up.
Yeah.
At the moment, I'm mainly working on the tooling to do this for myself.
Yeah.
I heard you talk about that a little bit in the sense of kind of, yeah, what can actually be,
what management stuff, what document manipulation things that the business does can be replaced by agents
and can be replaced by LLAMs and so on.
What's your thinking on that?
Are we, because I, I don't know, that doesn't work.
Connect.
No, we'll have to swim.
We'll have to swim.
But I'm still a little bit skeptical of those ideas in the sense of.
There's still quite a bit of human oversight required.
Yes.
So letting LLAMs run loose is, well, not the best idea.
Keep that guy in mind.
We're going to, we're going to, we're going to, he's just drilling.
Is that a little drill from LLAM or is to, it's almost like a mini jackhammer or something,
some of the thing, right?
Someone's going to drill the floor.
Yeah.
They will drill the floors.
Look at, look at, look at, look at this nice thing with this shame, if there wouldn't be any construction noises.
Yeah.
So, well, I think it depends on what you do, right?
But your, your, my guess would be that you, the main thing you're using these agents for would be coding work.
Which is already happening in LLAMs.
Yeah, I mean, it's happening.
Yeah.
But also, it's a, it's a pretty complex task.
Yeah.
You know, you can't just take a, yeah, like a standard person out of high school and set them in a chair and say,
like, all right, you just code this for me.
Yeah.
And so it's quite incredible.
I mean, the reason it's so accelerated there is just that everybody that has the capability to understand.
I think how impactful these things are often works in that space.
Yeah.
And a lot of coding people are generally quite happy to simplify their own jobs.
Yeah.
And so it fits quite nicely.
Yeah, yeah.
It fits quite nicely.
Yeah.
In some sense.
And so I think it gets applied there, but I think that's not the simplest place to apply.
But the more you see it being useful there, the more you think like, okay, there's a lot of jobs that are a lot simpler than this.
Yeah.
That have got much simpler training where, yeah.
You know, even jobs where you don't even need to really apply too much intelligence,
it's just like fuzzy pattern matching systems.
Yeah.
Like most, you know, like most SaaS systems that have been developed where, you know,
it's just a form on the database.
Yeah.
And then the person sitting in the chair is just there to be like a little fuzzy matching system to put the form in for a process.
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, there's a lot of stuff there.
It's just finding either the business for sale or the market.
Yeah.
And to your point, it's probably going to be new startups kind of taking over the old systems because just sharing inertia of the old.
Like they're not going to fire all the people and change everything and so on.
Yeah.
Most, most established businesses, right?
Like they just, they'll just be out competed.
Usually, we looked at it in the, like rental management plan.
Yeah.
It's like, you know, it just happens to have bumped into a guy and he was like, guy, fucking like worst day.
I'm dealing with all these property managers or bullshit and they'll cost me so much money and the salaries have gone up 50%.
You're like, what do they have to do?
And it's like, they're mainly organizing stuff backwards and forwards and email.
Yeah.
And it's like, huh.
And how many do you have?
It's like, oh, about, you know, 20 of them.
It's like, huh.
Interesting.
You're like, how long does it take to train them?
It's like, well, they've got to pass this certificate.
You know, like, you know, I can tell them what to do.
They're supposed to follow this checklist and it's all laid out.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
That's probably like 2000 of these remains.
There's all sorts of these businesses that you just, you realize, hang on a minute.
There's a lot of just manual processing.
Yeah.
So, well, what would you do if they, if they nobody had to do all of this manual processing chasing stuff up, entering forms and trying to stuff down, following up?
And it's like, oh, you know what I would do.
So, I would just go and hire maybe two, like, really good ex nurses.
You know, they just got really good bedside minds.
It's the sort of people that you're just going to like if you meet them.
Yeah.
And I would have them.
And then they could just, they could just chat to people.
They wouldn't have to do any of the donkey work.
But we just offloaded it all.
And you're like, yeah, you know what?
This would be a much better letting agents to get a house from.
Yeah.
All of a sudden.
Interesting.
There's a lot of people heavy businesses that you could look at.
And then I don't know, like, the question to me, and it's like, well, is there anything to do with Noster?
Oh, Bitcoin.
Yeah.
I mean, I would just accept it.
So, it could be.
But.
Yeah, I mean.
I'm, I haven't made up my mind yet with all the, a lot of them stuff.
I'm, again, I'm still skeptical.
I use it a bunch.
I've used it a lot ever since the last cord, basically.
Again, like I started coding again properly because I actually don't have to code anymore.
I can live code.
And it's way more enjoyable.
And it also like.
When I discovered this, like you, you, the hard part is, or at least that's true for me,
the hard part is kind of figuring out what to build in the, in the same sense of like the hard part for what you have to describe will be to figuring out what kind of businesses actually match this profile.
Yes.
And, and, and then also like, how do you make this transition right and all those kind of things?
And again, like do you start from scratch as a startup or take something else over and so on?
Yeah.
And, and, and, and for me as well, like what, what is actually viable and can actually be, what can actually be.
Easily prompted into existence because it's a combination of two or three existing things.
And all of these existing things are open source projects and I can just point.
Yeah.
My agent's on them and it's like, okay, take this part from here and take the other part from here and match the other thing up and then it just works.
Yeah.
And, and the, the reason why I'm still skeptical in some sense of like, I don't know, like to, to me, it seems.
I don't know.
Like, I'm, I'm of two minds.
Alan Franklin has to think that it's just another tool and all it will do is make the production of code much cheaper, which means we'll have much more code.
And so on and so forth.
Very similar argument to the digital camera is just a tool and we'll make everything cheaper and we'll have way more images and so on, which is treated.
Yeah.
Like with like surveillance cameras and dash cams and so on.
And, um, however, like I, I, the reason why I'm, why I'm of two minds is, is Alan Adams are different.
AI agents are different in terms of all the previous tools I've used before in the computing world.
I've used many tools.
I've been around for a long time.
But why do you look so young and handsome?
What's going on?
Oh, thanks.
It's just, you know, like it's a, it's a, it's all there.
No, no, no, no.
No, I'm not going to go into it.
I'm just drunk.
Exactly.
You have to be, I just posted that reason.
You have to be drunk on something.
Yeah.
Whether this doesn't matter.
Whether it's, you know, like women or alcohol or poetry, like pick something, but be drunk on it.
No.
Um, there is such a thing as a difference in degree that results in a difference of kind.
Like weapons, for example.
The atomic bomb is not just another weapon.
It is a different thing, even though it can be described as a weapon.
But it's not a weapon, just like a gun is a weapon.
It's not an upgrade of the gun or an upgrade of a regular like bundle of TNT.
Yeah, it's a really different thing.
It actually has the capacity to end the world as we know it.
Which makes it, it has its own category almost.
And that's how I see LLAMs in some sense where, where if the promise of LLAMs is fulfilled or not, not email LLAMs.
Let's say AI.
Okay.
And I don't even care if it's weak or strong AI.
It's just like replay, like you said.
Yeah.
Replacing middlemen.
Mainly just tool looking from here.
I think we've got it.
I think we've got everything we need in the state of the models.
It's slightly better tools.
Interesting.
I think I disagree.
Okay.
But interesting.
Okay.
But I might be very wrong.
Like I can, if I, if I squint I can see it kind of.
Do you want to finish your category thing and then move?
Yeah.
Because I'll try to, I'm not sure if I'm able to finish it.
But it's going to look at that stripey thing.
Let's do it.
Yeah. So, these are elements like a different category in the same way that like a nuclear
bomb would be a different, it's not really just a weapon. Yeah, and the, if the, like some
of the things we are working on as well, it's like you have agents that are just running
in the background and you basically you have like as many Eastern European development
teams as you like for like basically almost no money running at all times fulfilling
your wishes. Sounds lovely. And you are just like in charge directing the various
teams and just like building stuff out as you see fit. Yeah. And, and I feel like we
are close to that in some sense. And then the question, yeah, I'm not sure, I'm not sure
what the question is. But I think the point I was trying to make is that is, that is different
than most of the computer programs and tools we had before. In some sense also like for example
that maybe one difference here is that like if you had really good software, software tools
like they stopped as soon as the first stopped coding. Yeah. Right. Like most tools like
accelerate the output of what you put into them. This one you actually don't need to put
into them. Yeah. I may be there is the kernel of the idea, but yeah. I was thinking that
might make a good demo. But you just have the machine come up with its own ideas and then
implement them and then demo for me on Friday. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the, the, the,
the spark that comes out of that is just still human generator. That's what all, all the
cognitive scientists will tell you in the sense of that the training data is human generated.
The fine tuning is human lead. The pre-training is you know based on human taste and so on.
So we haven't seen an LMC that come up with something new from scratch. But it's also,
you know, like you could make the same humans do that. I was, I was just about to say that.
You can make the same argument about humans. I mean, everything's a remix and remix. Yeah,
exactly. That's why I don't like copyright. Like it just doesn't exist. Yeah. It's not
useful. Yeah. But no, everything's a remix. So my point on not needing bigger LMC. So it's
not to say that we're not going to get better models and that that won't be helpful. So
much is just, I think they already cross. Like a few barriers now that mean that we can
build a lot of what we need. And I think it's the tooling that makes it better. So like
yesterday we did the hand coding, those coding agents. Yeah. Yeah. As a workshop. And that
was quite cool to actually like literally build it. I was like, okay, that's pretty much how
it had been cheweted that they were working. But when you build it, you understand it a bit better.
Yeah. And you think really all you're doing is narrowing the scope of the question that you ask
these things, interpreting their answer on their behalf in a systemized manner. And then all of
a sudden your LLM goes from something you can talk to about code to something that can write
code on your behalf. Yeah. And then iterate and get better and use all the tools that you could use
already. Yeah. I mean, what the things like one little follow. But the things are clearly missing
is long-term memory through personal or through agency. I mean, we call them agents, but they
they're still like agency in that sense. And I mean, that's why why a regular intern is still better
at many things. I mean, there's a look for problems to solve. For example, and also like LLM's
are prone to make the same mistakes opened over again, no matter how much you tell them to make
this step a week of LLM's baking mistakes. It's for a second. Yeah, no. Again, like having, I mean,
I've been bipcoded a bunch. It's painful, the obvious that they are not reasoning in the same way.
Like, again, like I agree with you, they can probably replace most of middle management and most
interns. And so I'm not arguing against that, especially with like oversight and very little
oversight, where it's just like if you have someone that actually looks at stuff a bit and course
corrects and so on, like all of this can work. But the cool thing about interns is that they
actually learn. They actually actually learn and actually kind of, I think, what's still,
there's a great phrase by my favorite guy, Rebecca. I'll have to mention it. I mention him every
time. I was going to say, I'll be talking about that. But the issue with the machines currently
is that they don't care about what the what the data they process. Like they do information processing,
but they don't care about the information that they are processing. You really do. And an intern
also really does. Like every human really does. And it's related to meaning, because if the work
is not meaningful to you, you will stop doing it. And you'll be shitty at it. It's very hard to do
something that is completely meaningless to you. And so that's also why you're, again, to use
of a very key terms, like your salience landscapes changes completely based on your physiology. If you're
super, super thirsty, every shop that sells water will be high-per salient to you. Like you need water
and you really care about water now. And our information processing works in the same way.
Why are you working on the problems that you're working on? Because you care about them. And you
want to solve them and so on. And now that I'm can't do that at all. And his argument is basically
that for it to care, we need to embody it. And it needs to be able to die also. Like it needs to
be able to suffer in that. And that's kind of a big step up from where we are yet. That's why I'm
skeptical of. I guess for me, my point wasn't necessarily that we've got everything we need
for just like elements to replace humans. But for the cause of that you're speaking about the
cost of everything. I think most of that stuff comes down to narrowing the scope of the question
and asking way more questions much quicker. Because I suspect that is kind of what we do under the
hood. Is that we get a question instead of just answering it. We go, oh, what do I think about
that? How does that involve my morals? I wonder what my wife would think about this. What would
the kids say if I did that? I'm a bugger for just having these like massive conversations in my own
head before I do anything. I think we could just have a lot more of that going on. It's just
you need to burn a lot more money on compute. You need to narrow the scope. You need to ask the
questions to narrow the scope. Yeah, I think you get there. But I don't think that means we get
general intelligence. I think the whole general intelligence being is a bit of a... I think we'll
already have done everything we needed to do to destroy the world before we get. That's been
true for a long time. We don't need to terminate us out of the eye to end the world. I also
agree that the last thing that remains is the meaning. I think that's almost like the last job.
If these things are so useful at creating stuff cheaply for you, well, what do you create?
Yeah, so somebody needs to look out of the world and go, well, that could be better.
Yeah, I'm a bit fast. The water shop there. Yeah, it's... I actually had a kind of a post-carsie
the argument a little while ago with someone that I... that shall be unnamed for now.
And I made the point of... I don't agree with a full post-carsie of your world for exactly
four dead reasons. Let's say you live in a Star Trek universe and you have endless energy
and replicators, which is basically what the Silicon Valley software people will tell you about
the AI. You can build anything super cheaply. You can't build all the things basically.
Yeah, it's a post-carsie in terms of code generation and so on.
And I think that's bullshit because you will still have to figure out what to replicate, for example,
and it will take time. And it will also take... It will take time and attention.
Yeah. For me, how many of us is that in a room at the moment? Just watching,
code. Yeah, sure. Yeah, and... So they need wingman.
And it's similar to video in this day and age is free. You can watch many lifetimes of YouTube
videos. So the problem becomes what to watch because time is still limited and your attention is
limited. Even if you would live forever, you still would have to prioritize in some way.
It's like... Even if we would solve death, again, to go to the radical life extension
camp, you would still have to economize in terms of your time and attention.
So I don't buy the post-carsity thing like one bit. You're still... I think it's just hard to
imagine what it is you'll care about if all of your current needs are taken care of. But
history would tell us that we always seem to find something like, I mean, that's interesting,
isn't it? Like, if you go back a couple hundred years, yeah, this would look insane.
What we are doing right now, all our needs are taken care of. If you ask those people.
And we will tell them that's absolutely not true. And what's also fascinating is like we are
as Western society at least the most miserable we have ever been spiritually, psychologically.
It's interesting, right? Like, you remove the need to, I don't know, go out and hunt for food and
people just, you know, like, again, well, you know, people do have different sports and stuff.
I think there's a desire for struggle in a way. Yeah, you don't need it.
So maybe that's how AI will destroy the world. Maybe it doesn't need to. We...
It will be fine. We will remove all the struggle. Would you say you're generally an optimist?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, why would you not be?
You can choose evil one, right? So you can be optimistic and happy about where we're going.
Where you'd be like really, like two people in the train. Yeah, exactly. So which one do you want to be like?
One guy is having fun all the time. And everyone's always miserable. But can you trick yourself into being
that guy? To being an optimist? Yeah. Of course. You think so? You just say I'm an optimist.
Because you just have those when people would say like, you think it works this way.
It's like if somebody, I think it literally does. When somebody stops having you feel today,
you got off fantastic. Stop being depressed and just be awesome instead.
Well, I mean, you said that. That's an old, how I met your mother, quote,
if anyone still remembers this show. It's like, stop being sick. I didn't know that's where it was from.
And stop being sick and just be awesome instead. That's how you get better very quickly.
There you go. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think there's lots of reasons to be pessimistic.
There's definitely a lot of stuff that needs to be solved.
But we have better tools to solve it than we have ever had before.
I would say I'm an optimist too, but it's still very European.
Yeah, nice view isn't it? Yeah. No, I think it will be volatile the next 10 years.
And not only because of the cost curve that you sketched out and all those kind of changes,
but just in general, it's already so confusing to try to make sense of the world.
It's really hard. The breakdown of institutions and just kind of the way that the online
landscape works and the insane fragmentation, which is, you know, like absolutely everyone is
playing. I spoke many times now about the echo chamber. I hand curated for myself so that I
can just have a little bit of peace and quiet insanity. But the result, of course, is like I'm
not part of the global discourse. I have no idea what regular people care about. They're talking
about it. It's like I'm I'm I'm such an outlier. I mean, it's useful to be part of a global
discourse though, right? I don't think that's going to be so nice with these tools that they are
going to pull us away from our screens. You know, like the more I use these things, the more I look
for ways to get away from the computer, even though what I'm doing is building software. Yeah. I mean,
the Silicon Valley people, they do all of the they they forbid their kids to use any technology
basically because they know what they've done to poison it. But we don't have to use Poison
Scientology. We can just use either build our own. That's the nice thing all of a sudden, right?
Yeah, I mean, I really like what you said about the re-localization and those kind of things.
Because I think that's what you and it has been a recurring theme in the Bitcoin space,
you know, like strong local communities kind of thing. Like shake your
a farmer's hand and all those kind of things, which is absolutely happening. Like people are
actually, you know, like either turning themselves into farmers or befriending farmers
and building out these local communities. And it's also funny because on the Bitcoin and
the Nostra side and so on, it's it is it is it is local and global at the same time in some sense.
It's like it's I mean, look at the people that are here that made the trip to the island and so on.
It is a it is a small local community in the sense that it's localized around Nostra and the
technology we care about. But it's also it's like people come from all over the world, you know,
like you're you being the prime example coming from halfway across the world. Well, I was going to
try and be the furthest travel to a place at some point. Just have some amazing. You made it.
How was it for you so far to participating in the summer and engineering cohort?
It's been just kind of, did you know what you got yourself into?
Yeah, sort of. Sorry. I chatted with you just then. I sort of obviously listened to all the
podcasts from last time. What are you expected with? I thought there's going to be a lot of very
interesting people here. And so you're in good ideas. Yes, it's awful. And I thought there's
going to be a good vibe. There's going to be really good ideas. There's going to be really
a band stuff off. I think a lot will come out of it. Yeah. And so I didn't come with like massive
expectations. Yeah. The one thing. But I knew it would correct some problems with my own around.
Just not shitting enough. Yeah, okay. I'm trying to come up with ideas and then never executing on
them. And I thought, all right, well, this is going to force me through that. And I'm going to get
just like a much better muscle memory for just like, okay, idea, shit, don't talk about it.
I mean, you did it really well. You already shipped two things basically.
Exactly. So no more. Yeah. It's only week two. So so there's still there's still quite a bit of
time to go. Yeah. Well, that's it. It's some of the ideas. Yeah. I don't know if I can do this
in one first day. But it's usually surprising how well you can go. If you because again,
I think it's the getting the kernel of the idea right. That's the hard thing. Yeah.
If you manage to do that, you can usually vibe it into existence in a relatively short amount of time.
Like it's it's I know the devil is in the details and so on. But kind of, you know, aiming for
working front. You can make a version that doesn't work exactly correctly. Yeah. But get
the idea across. Yeah. And that's kind of what we're aiming for. Because there is a big difference
of like talking about something is super important and discussing everything and kind of
landing on the kernel itself and so on. But actually having a somewhat working prototype of
something, it changes everything. Like I know we're experienced that changes everything. If you
actually can see them play around with it and actually like the like the like the the casual
sniff 60 and so on. There was a great example because it actually it immediately worked kind of.
And you could immediately play around with it. It's just like,
immediately blows your mind basically. So I had this with Hazel when I was going here and it was
I was talking to him about I'd made this thing previously called Noster MQ, which was just to use
Noster like a message queue for remote RPC calls. And he's, it sounds a bit complicated. I don't
have to do that. You know what, if it was just I said I built a demo where I could control like
a MongoDB because I just didn't want I got sick of deploying it. But it's like that's
one of fucking the database on the internet. And I just used the one at home but I can't get that.
Oh, maybe I can talk to it through Noster. I didn't even went, oh I'd use something like that
for settings or something. But maybe if it was a lot simpler it was just a key value store in
Redis or something and that was like two days later how did it build? Yeah, fantastic. I could see
me using this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's how it starts. But that's how it starts. And that was
just me like I had a very complex idea and it became a little more left curse. Yeah, that's a good
that's a good that's there and it works and it's quite deployable. I think we could bring
also as an infrastructure like that. Yeah. Yeah. It just means that you don't have to put
everything on Noster at that point. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I think also that's it was kind of a misguided
approach in the beginning. That's that's kind of like once there was a brief period of time where
people were uploading images and videos through relays like a you know, base 64 encoded in
actual notes and so on. Yeah. And it's just like, oh come on, what are we doing now? That's like
this is not going to see over. Yeah, that's that's that's not a very smart idea. But you know,
we're figuring all it out as we go along and and again, like who who knows what it's good for and
what what will come of it? I'm not I'm not as married to Noster as I am to Bitcoin. I think I think
you know, if if if the 15 years from now, the main use of Noster is cryptographic identity and
just signing stuff and how the communication works, like I don't care so much about in some sense,
like it really is a massive win. It's still a massive win. That's my point. Like then I'm I'm
very very happy. You know, like that's that would be fantastic. And as of now, I feel like
enough smart people with the right motives are involved that I don't see Noster going away and I
like especially also the related things that popped up like I don't see cash you're going away
to the country. It's like the the things that are currently being worked on are so insanely
interesting and useful that that it's kind of just a I feel like most of the time it just needs
a catalyst. And like the right technology is already there and then the catalyst comes along and
it just proliferates massively. That's often though. I mean that was a video calling and
stuff like that right. Yeah. Shut up all of a sudden. Yeah. Yeah, COVID was the catalyst for
her. I say all of a sudden. No, no. We don't remember. Suddenly, why was that?
Are you doing in terms of heat? I could really put my feed in the water. Yeah, okay. Yeah,
should we do that? Yeah. And I'm kind of I'm very close to heatstroke so I probably don't have too
many too many interesting things. You're always saying. You're always saying. You're not
been living here long enough. Yeah, no, I know. I know. All right. Boy, should we call it that?
Yeah, unless you have anything else to I don't know. I'm still going. That's good. I was very
nervous. Very, very stupid. Don't don't be worried. We have backups of backups of backups today.
So yeah, no, I'm just I'm just very glad to have you and I'm very glad
that you know, to me, the no solutions experiment is already a great success because you know,
it already it already spawned other projects and that's always a good indication that
something was not a complete waste of time. So you didn't mention that. So this was obviously
the whole point of good stuff came after listening to the office. Yeah, no solutions. And your
production quality is like immediately like 10 X 10 X as good as ours. Yeah, you have like
animations and and like what do you use to create these little animations of? I see you generate
like a sprite map or whatever from usually very chat gbt. And then we've got like a little
can verb that just tells you where to put it on the image and export that with a with a clean view.
So lots of post processing. That's what I mean. Not at all. Not at all. So that happens once.
I mean, usually it's just me and Andy talking. So it's already been done. And then we just run a
program that has that live. And then when we talk, I have that as the background on OBS.
All right. And so we stream like to basically just live record it with that as the video.
I see. Okay. So there will be things together. Yeah. So there will be post processing today.
Okay. Yeah. You know, you're a new. If everything works, you can just right click
save this from ideally from my blossom. Okay. Well, let's do that without me having to touch anything.
So that's that's that's going to be the dream. Yeah. So it's the first time my the whole pipeline will
be in full force. Well, let's see. Let's see our works. Yeah. Usually I do that. I hit a script
and say, so like that one bang. I mean, it makes the video makes the MP freeze, makes the show
notes and everything for me. And then I just need to upload them all. But I still upload like a
caveman at the moment. You have you ever shown old prompt? Yes. All right. My old examples of
stuff. I have one to know. Let's see how well he works. Yeah. It's probably going to shit
them out terribly. Like, fuck they talking about it. But I hope you enjoyed this. I really enjoyed
this. Yeah. No, it was very good. It was a nice walk. How was it for you walking around?
It was good. But it's not different. It's different during the war. It is. It's in there.
Yeah. But I think we did well. Only a couple of long moors, a couple trucks, a couple of
a lot more. Some drilling. Yeah. We missed the drill. Yeah. So that was good. We're fine. Now,
let's let's jump into the water maybe or something. Feet at least. All right. Let's leave it there.
All right. Thanks man. Thanks so much for doing this. All right. Let's see what we got. I'll say
that's the good stuff. That's quite playable. I mean, we could bring also as an infrastructure like
that. Yeah. Yeah. It just means you don't have to put everything on the store at that point.
Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I think also that's it was kind of a misguided approach in the beginning.
That's that's kind of like once there was a brief period of time where people were uploading
images and videos through relays, like, you know, base 64 encoded in actual notes and so on.
Yeah. And it's just like, oh, come on. What are we doing now? That's like, this is not going
to be over. Yeah. That's that's that's not a very smart idea. But, you know, we're figuring all
it out as as we go along. And again, like, who who knows what it's good for and what what will
come of it? I'm not I'm not as married to Noster as I am to Bitcoin. I think I think, you know,
if if if the 15 years from now, the main use of Noster is cryptographic identity and just
signing stuff and how the communication works. Like, I don't care so much about in some sense.
Like it really is a massive win. It's still a massive win. That's my point. Like, then I'm I'm
very, very happy, you know, like, that's that would be fantastic. And as of now, I feel like
enough smart people with the right motives are involved that I don't see Noster going away.
And I like, especially also the related things that popped up. Like, I don't see cash
you're going away to the country. It's like the things that are currently being worked on are
so insanely interesting and useful that the it's kind of just a I feel like most of the time
it just needs a catalyst. And like, the right technology is already there and then the catalyst
comes along and it just proliferates massively. That's awesome. I mean, that was a video calling
and stuff like that, right? Yeah. Shut up all of a sudden. Yeah. Yeah, COVID was the catalyst for her.
I say all of a sudden. I don't know. We don't remember. Suddenly cool. Why was that?
Are you doing in terms of heat? I could really put my feet in the water. Yeah,
yeah, should we do that? Yeah. And I'm kind of fine. I'm very close to heat stroke. So I probably
don't have too many too many interesting things to say anymore. You know, I've been living here
long enough. Yeah, I know, I know. All right. Well, should we call it that? Yeah, unless you have
anything else to, I don't know. I don't know. We're still going. That's good. I was very nervous.
I love it. Don't be worried. We have backups of backups today. So yeah, no, I'm just I'm just
very glad to have you and I'm very glad that you know, to me, the no solutions experiment is already
a great success because you know, it already it already spawned other projects and that's always
a good indication that something was not a complete waste of time. So you didn't mention that. So
this was obviously the whole point of good stuff came after listening to the first. Yeah, no
solutions. And your production quality is like immediately like 10 x 10 x as as good as ours. Yeah,
you have like animations and and like what do you use to create these little animations of
Oh, so you just generate like a sprite map or whatever from usually to chat gbt. And then we've got
like a little Canver that just tells you where to put it on the image and export that with a
with a clean view. So lots of post processing. That's when I'm not at all, not at all. So that happens
once. I mean, usually uses me and Andy told us that it's already been done. Okay. And then we just run
a program that has that live. And then when we talk, well, I have that as the background on OBS.
All right. And so we stream like to basically just live record it with that as the video.
I see. Okay. So there will be things together. Yeah. So there will be post processing today.
Okay. Yeah, you know, you're a new problem. We're walking around. If everything works, you can
just right click save this from ideally from my blossom serum. Okay. Well, let's do that. Without
without me having to touch anything. So that's that's that's going to be the dream. Yeah. So it's
the first time my the whole pipeline will be in full force. Well, let's see. Let's see how it works.
Yeah. Usually I do that. I hit a script and say select that one bank. I mean, it makes the video,
it makes the MP3s, it makes the show notes and everything for me. And then I just need to upload
them all. But I still upload like a caveman at the moment. You haven't you ever shown that with prompt?
Yes. All right. My old examples of stuff. I have one too now. Let's see how well it works.
Yeah. It's probably going to shit the wall terribly. I'm fucking talking about it. But I hope
you enjoyed this. I really enjoyed this. Yeah. Now it's very good. It was a nice walk. How was it for
you walking around? It was good. But it's different. It's different during the walk. It is different.
The same man. Yeah. But I think we did well. Only a couple of lawnmowers, a couple trucks.
Couple of lawnmowers. I'm drilling. Yeah. We missed the drill. Yeah. So that was good. We're fine.
Now let's let's jump into the water maybe or something. Feet at least. All right. Let's leave it
all right. Thanks man. Thanks so much for doing this. All right. Let's see what we got. I'll say
that's the good stuff.