1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,000
Is it before water to start?

2
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,000
Yep, all right, I'm going.

3
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,000
All right, cheers.

4
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,000
Oh, what did you say?

5
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,000
Yeah, it's the European Union.

6
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,000
We don't have a cheers on us.

7
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,000
We only have good morning, right?

8
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,000
GM's, PV's.

9
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,000
GM's.

10
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,000
That's all there is.

11
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,000
All right.

12
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,000
Let's do two or three rings around the rosy

13
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,000
and then go out into the sun.

14
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,000
Traffic and sun.

15
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,000
All right, let's do it.

16
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,000
And let's see what causes first.

17
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,000
Well, I've been mostly looking the right direction

18
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,000
when I'm crossing roads.

19
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,000
That's good.

20
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,000
Is it different in Australia?

21
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,000
Yeah, Australia is like the UK.

22
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,000
So you've got right height first.

23
00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,000
So you?

24
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,000
Yeah, I'd look right in there.

25
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,000
I think I've had a couple of close calls where I've just

26
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,000
just been about to step out.

27
00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,000
There's a lot of one way of streets around here as well.

28
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,000
I always say the same thing.

29
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,000
It's a very beautiful island.

30
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,000
And the only two things that can kill you is traffic

31
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,000
and cliffs, basically.

32
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,000
Yeah.

33
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,000
No poisoners animals.

34
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,000
No big animals.

35
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,000
Not too much violence, I hope.

36
00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,000
So.

37
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,000
Well, we have a lot of violence.

38
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,000
An animal.

39
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,000
You have a lot of violence animals.

40
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,000
I feel like Australia is kind of the opposite of this year

41
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,000
where very big.

42
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,000
Yeah, right there.

43
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,000
Lots of poison and stuff.

44
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,000
Still lots of things to kill.

45
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,000
It's still an island.

46
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,000
Really big island.

47
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,000
Yeah.

48
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,000
Warm.

49
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,000
It's warm here.

50
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,000
It's warm right now.

51
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,000
But it's not like the heat usually doesn't kill you.

52
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,000
There's the same thing.

53
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,000
It looks like the most safe thing to have.

54
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,000
In the mountains.

55
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,000
Yeah.

56
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,000
So how was the first week for you,

57
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,000
or the first two weeks now, I guess?

58
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,000
What made you come here in the first place?

59
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,000
Let's start in the beginning.

60
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,000
Yeah.

61
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,000
So.

62
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,000
What was it?

63
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,000
I think I discovered your no solutions podcast.

64
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,000
There we go.

65
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,000
Yeah.

66
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,000
Popped up.

67
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,000
I think the first one I listened to was the Kale episode.

68
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,000
Okay.

69
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,000
Yeah.

70
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,000
I just felt like there was like a lot of work that I'd been like

71
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,000
started previously that never, never went where I expected it to

72
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,000
and didn't finish off.

73
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,000
And I don't know.

74
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,000
I felt quite inspired about that episode.

75
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,000
I was just like, you're right.

76
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,000
The internet is really fucked.

77
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,000
It needs fixing.

78
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,000
It's not getting any better.

79
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,000
We can all agree more on attack.

80
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,000
So.

81
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,000
Maybe it's time to.

82
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,000
Yeah.

83
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,000
We can try to.

84
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,000
Make a nice cliche the one day or something.

85
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,000
But maybe one day we can move.

86
00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,000
Sorry, an engineering to this place.

87
00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,000
It would be really neat.

88
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,000
That would be a real life Citadel.

89
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,000
And then everybody would go and work in the next office.

90
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,000
Like at the grass.

91
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,000
Yeah.

92
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,000
So.

93
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,000
So what stood out for you in terms of the eCache episode?

94
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,000
I know.

95
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,000
I listened to it about six months ago.

96
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,000
Because we talked about a lot of things if I remember correctly.

97
00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,000
We talked about the eCache, of course.

98
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,000
And how cash you can actually fix things in terms of.

99
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:27,000
It allows you to actually pay for stuff and not pay with your identity or data and those kind of things.

100
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,000
Talked about confidential compute and what that could bring and so on.

101
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,000
I mean, what do you mean in terms of you?

102
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,000
You worked on all this for a while or thought about this for a while?

103
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,000
Well, I mean, I.

104
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,000
So I went to Fetty previously, which is in the eCache space.

105
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,000
But like prior to that, I think I got interested in eCache back in 2019.

106
00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:51,000
It was Frank Brown and Smuggler were working on the script cash.

107
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,000
Okay.

108
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,000
So the stuff and I thought, oh, this is a great solution.

109
00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:01,000
Like I looked at lightning early on and just from my like initial like architect type reading.

110
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,000
Yeah.

111
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,000
Oh, this isn't payments or it's not final.

112
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,000
It's just not going to work like that with liquidity.

113
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,000
But it would make excellent.

114
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,000
That's a very deep inside.

115
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,000
Yeah.

116
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,000
I think most people didn't have early on.

117
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,000
No.

118
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,000
The lightning was having it because no one believed it.

119
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,000
The lightning narrative was very much like it's payment for everyone.

120
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,000
Yeah, we try and argue it with people and they say no, no, you're wrong because I made a payment.

121
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,000
Yeah.

122
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,000
You know, we did that with on chain Bitcoin back in the day.

123
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,000
So this might last like two for years and then we'll get annoyed at it.

124
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:30,000
Yeah.

125
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,000
So try to cross over.

126
00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,000
Yeah.

127
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,000
So it always struck me that that was probably not not the way it goes.

128
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,000
Okay.

129
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:38,000
And you probably want something else.

130
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,000
I was working on different like eCache systems like all my whiteboard at home.

131
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:42,000
Yeah.

132
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,000
Just trying to figure out what might work.

133
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:50,000
But I figured nothing would ever work unless you had some sort of better trust model or something inside.

134
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,000
So like the random data in the eCache.

135
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,000
Maybe that could somehow be related to keys that you own or something like that.

136
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,000
Okay.

137
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,000
Some more trustless.

138
00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,000
But I couldn't figure it out.

139
00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:04,000
And then I think it's like Eric really spending it and I was like, no, maybe nobody cares about that.

140
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,000
It's just me trying to write curve it and be too complex.

141
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,000
Yeah.

142
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,000
So I got voted.

143
00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,000
Lots of people didn't care in the beginning.

144
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,000
Yeah.

145
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,000
I mean, that's kind of that's the story of eCache in general.

146
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,000
And then obviously Cache is even simpler.

147
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,000
It's like, well, yeah, maybe it's just overdoing it.

148
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,000
But I don't think it's like I...

149
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:30,000
I think just in terms of like world view, like what I want is just...

150
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,000
Just more control at like the individual level.

151
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:38,000
Like I don't like just sticking stuff off to some massive institutions.

152
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:39,000
Oh, fuck.

153
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,000
I'm fine.

154
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:48,000
I thought I was going to be the one walking into stuff.

155
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,000
Yeah.

156
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,000
So I have like a strong preference for like localism.

157
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:53,000
Yeah.

158
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,000
The farmer's market stuff.

159
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:55,000
Yeah.

160
00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,000
Like keeping stuff close to the people and to cash for it.

161
00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:59,000
Yeah, exactly.

162
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,000
Yeah.

163
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,000
So I don't like...

164
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,000
Yeah, it wasn't really very keen on the direction things were going.

165
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:07,000
Yeah.

166
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:12,000
Like, you know, Australia has a bit of a tendency towards bad policies.

167
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:13,000
Yeah.

168
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,000
I think it's...

169
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,000
How is it in Australia in general, like with farmer's markets and other things?

170
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,000
Oh, it's...

171
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,000
Is it very...

172
00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,000
Is it very cash heavy?

173
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,000
Is it like others in work?

174
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,000
How do things work?

175
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,000
To be honest, even farmers markets these days aren't very cash heavy.

176
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:26,000
No.

177
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,000
It's all squared.

178
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,000
It's all Jack.

179
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,000
Okay.

180
00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,000
Everybody else squares up on their phones.

181
00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,000
Everybody just tap and pay for everything.

182
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,000
All right.

183
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:35,000
Yeah, well.

184
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000
I mean, it's not all bad in some sense.

185
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,000
Yeah.

186
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,000
I don't know.

187
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,000
Never mind.

188
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,000
In some sense, you know, if people are used to using their phones and so on,

189
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:50,000
it should make it easy to transition to e-cash and the things like we are working on, basically.

190
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,000
Yeah.

191
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,000
It's, you know, like just another app or in...

192
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,000
Like with...

193
00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:00,000
With squares, there's even the possibility that it will make it into square in the long run.

194
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,000
Well, so we keep seeing in the announcements.

195
00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,000
I mean, we have our local bit devs in Perth in a place that has square terminals.

196
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,000
Yeah.

197
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,000
I look forward to it suddenly turning on.

198
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,000
Yeah.

199
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,000
I mean, it's quite...

200
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,000
It's very nice here, like just how many places just natively accept that coin.

201
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,000
Yeah.

202
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,000
Where do you go?

203
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,000
Yeah.

204
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,000
That's pretty cool.

205
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,000
So you've tried BTC map and some of the places that we ever own here?

206
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,000
Oh, to be honest, I haven't been looking them up on the map.

207
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,000
I've just been...

208
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,000
You see the stickers.

209
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,000
You've seen them with the kind of stuff and stuff.

210
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,000
Yeah.

211
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,000
And obviously everybody's been here before already knows.

212
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,000
I always go here this one.

213
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,000
Yeah.

214
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,000
Yeah.

215
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,000
That's been nice.

216
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,000
All the best places.

217
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,000
It's just such a weird experience for you.

218
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,000
Yeah.

219
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,000
Okay.

220
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,000
Bitcoin, let you just go.

221
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,000
Yeah.

222
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,000
Yeah.

223
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:42,000
It's very normal, right?

224
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:43,000
Yes.

225
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,000
It's very, very normal.

226
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,000
That's kind of...

227
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,000
I had this long Nostopostum all I know.

228
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,000
Probably almost a year ago now or something.

229
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,000
But I was reflecting on that.

230
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,000
How normally it is now for me to pay...

231
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,000
Like, I pay breakfast lunch and dinner basically in Bitcoin.

232
00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,000
I mean, most of the time I cook myself for dinner.

233
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,000
But at least I...

234
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,000
Breakfast lunch and coffee.

235
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,000
And so if I'm just out in the mountains.

236
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,000
Yeah, they're supermarkets.

237
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:07,000
That's what I'm interested in.

238
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,000
And also...

239
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,000
And also...

240
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,000
Like, for example, for us, it's super normal.

241
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,000
Like, if...

242
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,000
Like, we have a handyman, for example, and he accepts Bitcoin.

243
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,000
Because he's from here and everyone accepts Bitcoin.

244
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,000
And so it's just...

245
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,000
Do you accept Bitcoin?

246
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,000
Yeah, sure.

247
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,000
And he'll just...

248
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,000
You know, like, there's no resistance, basically, in some sense.

249
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,000
And also, the babysitters...

250
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,000
We have, like, we...

251
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,000
It's very normal.

252
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,000
It's like...

253
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,000
Yeah.

254
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,000
It's very, very normal.

255
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,000
And so...

256
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,000
So...

257
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,000
There was a point where I just...

258
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,000
You know, like...

259
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,000
You do it every day and you just pay for your coffee every day.

260
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,000
And you pay in Bitcoin all the time.

261
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,000
And I was like, oh, wow, it's so normal.

262
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,000
Like, I don't even...

263
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,000
I don't know, it's very weird.

264
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,000
You don't even appreciate it anymore.

265
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,000
Because it's not too long ago, like...

266
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,000
To your point, like, lightning, for example...

267
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,000
I remember the first lightning conference in Berlin.

268
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,000
Like, nothing worked.

269
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,000
Everyone was, like, hyper-prepared.

270
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:00,000
You know, balanced shadows.

271
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,000
Everything set up.

272
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,000
And, like, at least 50% of payments failed.

273
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:04,000
Like, it was so bad.

274
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,000
Nice.

275
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,000
And now it's just, like...

276
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,000
It's all lightning all the time.

277
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,000
And it all works.

278
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,000
But to your point, you know, like, this will also evolve.

279
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,000
Like, that's...

280
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,000
We know that lightning...

281
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,000
Kind of...

282
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,000
Like, what do we have now?

283
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,000
It won't stay this way for...

284
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,000
For long, I think.

285
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,000
Like, yeah.

286
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,000
I mean, it always comes back to some sort of base-change transactions.

287
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000
It's gonna have...

288
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000
It's gonna have a cost...

289
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,000
It's gonna have like, steeple in.

290
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,000
It's gonna be...

291
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,000
One more here just to stay in the shade.

292
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,000
Oh, no.

293
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,000
Maybe not, because there's a...

294
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,000
Well, let's go into the sunset.

295
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,000
I...

296
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,000
I live in Australia.

297
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,000
It's okay.

298
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,000
I can walk in some.

299
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,000
Yeah, that's okay.

300
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,000
You get that going for you.

301
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,000
I used to do triathlons as well in summer.

302
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,000
And so you end up...

303
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,000
Oh, nice.

304
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,000
You're going to do, like, a five-hour bike ride.

305
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,000
And then you have to run a half marathon in the sun.

306
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,000
Wow.

307
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,000
Like, you know, as an...

308
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,000
As an Austrian born and raised

309
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,000
and growing up in the mountains, I'm not used to the heat.

310
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,000
But very much...

311
00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:58,000
Very close names, though.

312
00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,000
Yeah.

313
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:00,000
It's not Australian.

314
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,000
It's interesting how often people confuse it.

315
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,000
Like, when I was the only day as a kid,

316
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,000
and people would ask me where I'm from,

317
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,000
they would always hear Australia, basically.

318
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,000
Like, you say Australia, and they're like a bad accent.

319
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,000
That's why I say Australia.

320
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,000
My little tip for English people going to France these days,

321
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,000
is to always tell them you're Australian.

322
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,000
Okay.

323
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,000
Because obviously, if you're English and you turn up in France,

324
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,000
they just...

325
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,000
They just matter you.

326
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,000
You say, oh, no.

327
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,000
That's not from Australia, though.

328
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,000
Oh, wow.

329
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,000
It's such a long way.

330
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000
That's a good life.

331
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,000
All of a sudden they switch into perfect English

332
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,000
and just...

333
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:32,000
Conversely, you friendly.

334
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,000
That's a good life.

335
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,000
That's great.

336
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,000
So, I'll die of heatstroke before you...

337
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:38,000
Wow.

338
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,000
There's a big shake, though.

339
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,000
Yeah, there we go.

340
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:41,000
Well, make it.

341
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,000
It is winter at home at the moment, so.

342
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,000
But you have some...

343
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,000
You have some Bitcoin communities also popping up now

344
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,000
in Australia, like, circle economies, right?

345
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,000
And those kinds of things.

346
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,000
In New Zealand as well.

347
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,000
That's what I saw as well.

348
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,000
I didn't see the New Zealand.

349
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,000
New Zealand's a long way from it.

350
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,000
No, I never fly.

351
00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,000
No, I never fly.

352
00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,000
I know, I know.

353
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,000
But just in general, my general point is...

354
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,000
The things are...

355
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,000
Like, Madera is special because it's such a small island.

356
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,000
Yeah.

357
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,000
And basically, it's like 200 merchants now or so.

358
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,000
And...

359
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,000
And, like...

360
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,000
It's everywhere.

361
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,000
Yeah.

362
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,000
And 200 is a small number.

363
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,000
Like, that's kind of my point.

364
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,000
Like, you own more 200 merchants and you're like,

365
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,000
you're almost done.

366
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,000
You know what I mean?

367
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,000
And...

368
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,000
But I think it has to start on the small islands of sorts.

369
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,000
And...

370
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,000
It is all kind of community-driven initiatives,

371
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,000
where it's just like, okay, let's go hard.

372
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,000
And if there's a critical mass of Bitcoiners,

373
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:38,000
I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

374
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,000
You have a critical mass of Bitcoiners.

375
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,000
So it's very strong.

376
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,000
All of them, I would say, right?

377
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:43,000
Yeah.

378
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,000
You have the bush fashion.

379
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,000
The bush fashion is excellent.

380
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,000
And they can be anywhere from, like...

381
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,000
Well, maybe like four or five a year.

382
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,000
Yeah.

383
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:50,000
And it's from 50 people to 200 people.

384
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,000
Yeah.

385
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,000
Coming for a weekend.

386
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,000
And they're all in remote towns.

387
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,000
Yeah.

388
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,000
So like, it's not easy to get to, even if it's in your state.

389
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,000
Yeah.

390
00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,000
Yeah.

391
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,000
I mean, I told you already, the bush fashion was in part

392
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,000
the inspiration for this, because it's basically...

393
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,000
Coming to the island is a natural filter of like...

394
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,000
Yeah.

395
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,000
You are already committed.

396
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,000
Like, there is no...

397
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:11,000
You have the built-in proof of work.

398
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,000
Yeah.

399
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:13,000
Just like...

400
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,000
There is no backing out.

401
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,000
Like, you made the trip.

402
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,000
Not now you're in for the ride.

403
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:18,000
Yeah.

404
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:19,000
It's quite surprised the recent one.

405
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,000
There's like a couple of people over from America

406
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,000
at the bush fashion.

407
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,000
Nice.

408
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,000
That's a long weekend trip.

409
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,000
Yeah.

410
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,000
That's a long way.

411
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,000
That's a long way.

412
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,000
How many years of bushmasters?

413
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,000
Are you guys doing that?

414
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:32,000
I think it's like five.

415
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,000
Like, it was...

416
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,000
Yeah.

417
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,000
It was like the first border opening

418
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,000
after the initial COVID lockdowns.

419
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,000
Yeah.

420
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,000
There was...

421
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,000
Twitter personalities.

422
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,000
So William of Roverum and...

423
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,000
Beats you, Shelling Point.

424
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,000
Yeah.

425
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,000
Not these names.

426
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,000
Yeah, they decided to get together.

427
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,000
And then I think...

428
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,000
Yeah.

429
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,000
They'll put it on...

430
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,000
Put it on Twitter.

431
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,000
And then, like, about 28 people turned up.

432
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,000
Yeah.

433
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,000
They just ran, like, a bit of an unconferencing.

434
00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,000
Yeah.

435
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,000
But it's very nice.

436
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,000
Like, it's such a good weekend.

437
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,000
Nice.

438
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,000
Yeah.

439
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,000
That's awesome.

440
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,000
Yeah.

441
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,000
That's awesome to see.

442
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,000
I always...

443
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:08,000
You know, I...

444
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,000
I mean, I consider both of them,

445
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,000
and good friends.

446
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,000
To me, it was always amazing to...

447
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,000
To have kind of the older semester

448
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,000
paying attention to...

449
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,000
Yeah.

450
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:23,000
To...

451
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:24,000
To Bitcoin.

452
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,000
That was my first reaction.

453
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,000
Yeah.

454
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,000
When I first met Beats Shelling Point,

455
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,000
it was...

456
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,000
Oh, you're a gray beard.

457
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:31,000
Literally.

458
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,000
Yeah.

459
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,000
And I met it as a compliment.

460
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,000
Like, it was very cool to see

461
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,000
someone who has been around computers

462
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,000
for a very long time,

463
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,000
really closely paying attention to Bitcoin.

464
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,000
And getting it in there.

465
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,000
Yes.

466
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,000
Understanding it in a deep way.

467
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,000
Because, you know, like, you...

468
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,000
You need a certain level of cognitive flexibility

469
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,000
to destroy your world for you

470
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,000
and rebuild it on Bitcoin.

471
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,000
At that age.

472
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,000
Right.

473
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,000
There's not many people that can manage

474
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,000
at a certain age.

475
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,000
Yeah.

476
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,000
No, it doesn't fit in naturally,

477
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,000
with what people come from.

478
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,000
Yeah.

479
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,000
No, it's...

480
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,000
It's very hard to simply get Bitcoin

481
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,000
just on first contact.

482
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,000
Then you have the...

483
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,000
The built-in annoyance

484
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,000
that there's other people that go here before you.

485
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,000
Yeah, sure.

486
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,000
This doesn't feel bad.

487
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,000
But that's an interesting part

488
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,000
of the merchant adoption that's happening here

489
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,000
that people don't need to have a clue about anything.

490
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,000
And that's really cool to see.

491
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,000
Like, they just...

492
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:34,000
In more way.

493
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,000
You mean they don't need to have a clue?

494
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,000
Like this.

495
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,000
They don't need to...

496
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,000
In some sense,

497
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,000
the way the onboarding works is that

498
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,000
there is some education that is happening

499
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,000
and there is some explanation

500
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,000
of just don't touch the Bitcoin.

501
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,000
It's going to be...

502
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,000
Yeah, exactly.

503
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,000
...the volume and those kind of things.

504
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,000
But for the merchant themselves,

505
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,000
it's very much like getting a square terminal or whatever.

506
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,000
You know what I mean?

507
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,000
It's like, okay, there's Visa, there's MasterCard,

508
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,000
there's Google Pay,

509
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,000
there's Apple Pay,

510
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,000
there's this thing, there's that thing,

511
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,000
and so on.

512
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,000
And there's Bitcoin.

513
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,000
Yeah.

514
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,000
And especially here.

515
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,000
I don't know, we managed to...

516
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,000
There's always always something.

517
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,000
If you switch on the microphone,

518
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,000
it's like the heavy machinery

519
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,000
will switch on at the same time.

520
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,000
That's just a lot of recording.

521
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,000
And I had a good stuff down at the beach

522
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,000
and somebody just sold the pavement next to it.

523
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,000
Yeah, I just took it actually.

524
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,000
You close the door,

525
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,000
and it was still very...

526
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:32,000
Oh, it was.

527
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,000
Very much audible.

528
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,000
But what's interesting in Europe is,

529
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,000
especially here in Portable,

530
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,000
I'm not sure if you noticed.

531
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,000
In some shops, it's not as prevalent as in others.

532
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,000
But in some sports shops, for example,

533
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,000
every single fucking bank

534
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,000
and every single fucking kind of

535
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,000
payment range provider has their own terminal.

536
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,000
And so depending on what car you pay...

537
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,000
Oh, with multiple terminals.

538
00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,000
They have like six, seven terminals already.

539
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,000
So adding a Bitcoin one with like, you know,

540
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,000
like even the...

541
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,000
So I thought people would maybe use it as a musket one

542
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,000
that comes as like a little handheld thing.

543
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,000
So what Fremadeira handed out is that once...

544
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,000
I think the BDC Paystover team was involved in building these out.

545
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,000
The ones that also support NFC

546
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,000
and like the proper terminals.

547
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,000
Yeah, many merchants have those.

548
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,000
Okay.

549
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,000
And it's just another thing for them.

550
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,000
It's like, it does matter if they have like five or six

551
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,000
or six or seven or whatever.

552
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,000
You know what I mean?

553
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,000
Yeah.

554
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,000
And it's just depending on people say how they want to pay

555
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,000
to just pull out their right thing.

556
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,000
And that's what I mean with they don't need to have a clue.

557
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,000
They don't need to be full Bitcoin Maxis, you know,

558
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,000
to accept Bitcoin.

559
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,000
And they don't need to, you know,

560
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,000
burn down their own self and the world view just by accepting.

561
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,000
They just accept Bitcoin.

562
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,000
And that's it.

563
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,000
And then they're happy if it goes up a bit.

564
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,000
And it's like less than one percent of their transactions anyway.

565
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,000
Yeah.

566
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,000
It doesn't matter too much.

567
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,000
It's already covered the bills.

568
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,000
Yeah.

569
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,000
So they have accounting issues here or is that no?

570
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,000
No, no, no, no, no, no.

571
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,000
We don't even know what they're saying.

572
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:54,000
That's what we mean accounting.

573
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,000
Who does that Bitcoin?

574
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:56,000
That's all they're accounting.

575
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,000
It's like, it's an accounting system.

576
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,000
What do you mean?

577
00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,000
It's not...

578
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,000
It accounts for itself every ten minutes.

579
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,000
Yeah.

580
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,000
Yeah.

581
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,000
It's kind of like cash.

582
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,000
Yeah.

583
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,000
And also, yeah, I think legally speaking,

584
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,000
that's how you can do it.

585
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,000
If you don't convert, I'm not sure.

586
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,000
I don't know what it is, right?

587
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,000
It's like a cash payment.

588
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,000
Yeah, it's a cash payment.

589
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,000
And I think the only additional thing,

590
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,000
but I'm not sure.

591
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,000
I'm not sure how it is important to go.

592
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,000
I should know, but I just don't.

593
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,000
I care too little about it for it to ever really read up on it.

594
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,000
But how it usually is is like if you...

595
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,000
If you make a conversion to Fiat in the first twelve months,

596
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,000
then you would be liable to the short term speculative taxes

597
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,000
and those kind of things and couple of gains taxes or those kind of things.

598
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,000
But if you just don't touch it for a while,

599
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,000
then all that goes out of the window

600
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,000
because you're actually not speculating on it.

601
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,000
Yeah.

602
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,000
And so you can actually account for it.

603
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:51,000
That's like a cash...

604
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,000
Incoming cash payment and so on.

605
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,000
And it's just like this account where cash is in it.

606
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,000
That's it.

607
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,000
Or something at this point in time.

608
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,000
Just treating it as something I'm going to hold on to to say if it's perfect.

609
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,000
Yeah.

610
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,000
Yeah.

611
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,000
And to be honest,

612
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,000
I saw this in Costa Rica as well

613
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,000
in some other of the circular economies.

614
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:13,000
I think that's why it works so well in the...

615
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,000
How should I put it?

616
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,000
Less organized countries.

617
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,000
In Switzerland and Germany,

618
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,000
the German people, for example,

619
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,000
are an interesting kind of people.

620
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,000
It's not only historically,

621
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,000
but also just in general.

622
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,000
Like when we ran the...

623
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,000
I mean, it's still ongoing.

624
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,000
I'm just not really involved anymore.

625
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,000
But the German speaking podcast, yeah.

626
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,000
We legit had people reach out to us,

627
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,000
asking us how they should declare

628
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,000
the podcasting 2.0 boosts

629
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,000
or now we would say SAPs.

630
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,000
How should they account for the SAPs

631
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,000
in their tax declaration?

632
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,000
And we were like, you know,

633
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,000
you can't...

634
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:55,000
No, I can't say.

635
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,000
We are legally not allowed to give this advice.

636
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,000
But if you have...

637
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,000
Yeah.

638
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,000
You know, if you onboard those kind of people

639
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,000
then it's just going to be very hard.

640
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,000
Yeah.

641
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,000
And in Portugal in general,

642
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,000
they know how to have a cash and do the things

643
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,000
and what to actually care about

644
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,000
and what to not care about and so on.

645
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,000
And so I think that's in part why it really works.

646
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,000
Where it's just a...

647
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,000
They are set up for this type of economy

648
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,000
and they just make it work.

649
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,000
And yeah, they're just happy to be accommodating

650
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,000
to the customer.

651
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,000
And it's also what's really nice, I think,

652
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,000
is people are actually super, super, super surprised

653
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,000
how easy it is to accept it.

654
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,000
Yeah.

655
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,000
Like it's just you punch in, care code,

656
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,000
green jackmarks everywhere and it's done.

657
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,000
And it's super fast.

658
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,000
So...

659
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,000
I got that a lot.

660
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,000
It's for new merchants that just got onboarded.

661
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,000
They're just like always, you know,

662
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,000
you help them a little bit to figure it out,

663
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,000
then you show them.

664
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,000
And they're just like...

665
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,000
The face is always like, wow,

666
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,000
like they're super surprised how well it is.

667
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,000
Well, when you're a merchant as well,

668
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,000
you're more aware of the actual settling times

669
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,000
behind credit cards and stuff.

670
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,000
So there's the, you know, 25, 30 seconds

671
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,000
when you're clearing the transaction at the till.

672
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,000
But then you also have the two,

673
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,000
like two-month weight of this.

674
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,000
That helps here as well.

675
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,000
Everyone hates credit cards.

676
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,000
Yeah.

677
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,000
You see a lot of...

678
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,000
You see a lot of shops.

679
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,000
You see a lot of tourists are going to be here

680
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,000
with credit cards and stuff.

681
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,000
Yes.

682
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,000
But you still have lots of little shops

683
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,000
and lots of little, like, cafeterias and so on

684
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,000
that have these signs where just there's credit cards on them

685
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,000
and they're all, like, they only accept cash.

686
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,000
And...

687
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,000
Some big-body gym was very strict.

688
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,000
Exactly.

689
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,000
And some of these people,

690
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,000
we actually manage all more than Bitcoin,

691
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,000
because they hate the credit cards because of the fees.

692
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,000
And of the...

693
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,000
How cumbersome it is and everything.

694
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,000
Like, you get completely raped by the credit card companies

695
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,000
if you are a small merchant.

696
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,000
It's just the way it is.

697
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,000
And that's why they, like...

698
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,000
Yeah, again, they have all these signage,

699
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,000
which I always love to see.

700
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,000
You have all the payment providers and the credit cards

701
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,000
and the big red crosses through them and so on.

702
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,000
So that's really cool.

703
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,000
Just open source.

704
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,000
Yeah.

705
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,000
But I think on the e-cash side,

706
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,000
actually the end-consumer payments

707
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,000
won't be the next big push.

708
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,000
I think it's all going to be...

709
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,000
Services.

710
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,000
Services.

711
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,000
Replacing APIs, in some sense,

712
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,000
or replacing the username and password stuff.

713
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,000
That's my hope, at least.

714
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,000
I think so.

715
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,000
I think so.

716
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,000
Like, it's...

717
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,000
It's not clear to me how it plays out yet.

718
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:32,000
But I...

719
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,000
It makes a lot of sense that it will play out there.

720
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,000
But the UI of just...

721
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,000
Even with the...

722
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,000
How do we get everybody to have the e-cash?

723
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,000
I mean, it's classic checking out the thing, right?

724
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,000
Yeah.

725
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,000
But even with kind of the...

726
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,000
I mean, now, like...

727
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,000
Obviously, everyone is paying for agents and compute

728
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,000
and all those kinds of things and so on.

729
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,000
And paying everybody for all of them.

730
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,000
And everyone hates...

731
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,000
I mean, it's the Netflix problem, kind of.

732
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,000
You know?

733
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,000
It's like, okay, there's one streaming service.

734
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,000
That's fantastic.

735
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,000
You pay for one streaming service.

736
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,000
You pay whatever 20 bucks a month.

737
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,000
It's fine.

738
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,000
You can watch everything.

739
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,000
All right.

740
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,000
And then there's 10.

741
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,000
And then there's 10 or 15.

742
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,000
And then you're fucked.

743
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,000
And I think that's what we are seeing with all these services.

744
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,000
It's like, okay.

745
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,000
Do you have an open AI subscription?

746
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,000
Fine.

747
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,000
All right.

748
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,000
But then you have a thrott big,

749
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,000
and five other things pop up and so on.

750
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,000
And it's like, okay.

751
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,000
Like, you probably don't want to sign up.

752
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,000
Yeah.

753
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,000
I mean, this is one of the differences.

754
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,000
I make me go for open ads.

755
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,000
And so I can just move between all the different tools.

756
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,000
But then...

757
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,000
I go for open ads.

758
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,000
Very nice.

759
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,000
It would be nice to just hold money and then pay for the ones

760
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,000
that I want when I need to use them.

761
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,000
I mean, that's the idea of...

762
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,000
A froucester and paper cube.

763
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,000
So...

764
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,000
Yeah, we...

765
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,000
I mean, right now...

766
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,000
It's probably really bad with the Longmore High.

767
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,000
Two meters.

768
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,000
I mean, both listeners will...

769
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,000
We'll be fine with it.

770
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,000
I always have to remind myself.

771
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,000
Like, no one cares.

772
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,000
That was listening.

773
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,000
No one cares.

774
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,000
It's like, no one cares.

775
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,000
Who cares?

776
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,000
But...

777
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,000
Actually...

778
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,000
And a surprising number of people care.

779
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,000
There is...

780
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,000
But I also get the right...

781
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,000
In a sense of...

782
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,000
Like, I...

783
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,000
All the negative feedback I got so far was about audio quality.

784
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,000
And I think the main issue is...

785
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,000
If the audio quality is shit...

786
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,000
It wouldn't happen.

787
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,000
It wouldn't happen.

788
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,000
Very hard to listen in your car.

789
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,000
Because with earphones, it usually doesn't...

790
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,000
Yeah.

791
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,000
It's not a big show for people.

792
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,000
It's actually B.C. Show and post.

793
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,000
He found it hard to listen to on his bike.

794
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,000
Yeah.

795
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,000
But if you have special environments like...

796
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,000
There's people that watch fucking podcasts on TV.

797
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,000
I'll never understand it.

798
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,000
But...

799
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,000
Then bad audio quality.

800
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,000
Like, I'm a big headphones kind of guy.

801
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,000
So I don't care.

802
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,000
And also, you know, like...

803
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,000
I don't have to re-list into it because I usually remember what I said.

804
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,000
But I think...

805
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,000
Anyway, the...

806
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,000
I think it's super stupid.

807
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,000
Especially for things that you don't always need.

808
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,000
To be forced into a monthly subscription.

809
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,000
Sign up KYC thing.

810
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,000
And I think everyone...

811
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,000
More people than ever are hating that now.

812
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,000
Well, it stops you trying stuff as well.

813
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,000
Yes. Exactly.

814
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,000
Yeah.

815
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,000
And I feel like more people than ever are frustrated with that.

816
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,000
And E-cash actually fixes this.

817
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,000
Like, that's actually what, you know, routes are in pay-per-cue.

818
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,000
And everyone is trying to do it.

819
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,000
I mean, in terms of like bringing...

820
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,000
A.I. is such a good...

821
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,000
Like, just impactful thing.

822
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,000
Once you actually start paying for it.

823
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,000
And you realize what you can do with it.

824
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,000
You realize, oh, this is worth money.

825
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,000
And it's a good thing to them.

826
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,000
Actually, it's a Bitcoin.

827
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,000
We're not doing this very Bitcoin.

828
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,000
It's because it makes it easy if you just swap between all these different advisors.

829
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,000
You can use whatever you want.

830
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000
Yeah.

831
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,000
You're not locked in forever.

832
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,000
You can just pay us when you need to pay us.

833
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,000
It's actually a nicer experience.

834
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,000
Yeah.

835
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,000
But you've got products that you can bolt on the back of it.

836
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,000
That's purely digital.

837
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,000
That works very nicely with that.

838
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,000
It's a payment system.

839
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,000
Yeah.

840
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,000
I mean, that's where things are heading, right?

841
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,000
Where you have multi...

842
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,000
Like, you don't always want to use the most expensive agent.

843
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,000
No.

844
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,000
Like, if you want to...

845
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,000
My go-to example is always, if you have a merge conflict

846
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,000
and you want to resolve the merge conflict,

847
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,000
there's special agents that can do that really, really well.

848
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,000
Or also, like, if you just want to do some registration or whatever.

849
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,000
Like, you have special tasks where...

850
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,000
It's more economical to use a...

851
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,000
a number model or a smaller model or what have you.

852
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,000
Yeah.

853
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,000
I mean, that's just like how any company works.

854
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,000
You know, like, you don't want to...

855
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,000
throw your 400 bucks in our specialists to whatever.

856
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,000
Like, you know, clean up the door.

857
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,000
Yeah.

858
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,000
Make coffee.

859
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,000
Yeah.

860
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,000
So, that's just...

861
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,000
Yeah.

862
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,000
Regular economics.

863
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,000
And I mean, you know, cursor and those kind of like all in one system.

864
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,000
That's what they do right now, where it's basically...

865
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,000
You have certain kind of...

866
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,000
A certain budget.

867
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,000
And they have automatic agent selection and so on.

868
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,000
And if it selects the most expensive thinking model

869
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,000
so whatever, it will actually eat up your budget really quickly.

870
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,000
Yeah.

871
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,000
And then you have to pay as you go and all those kind of things.

872
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,000
Of course, all of that's credit card-based.

873
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,000
Do you...

874
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,000
I haven't kept track of it.

875
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,000
But is it still the case?

876
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,000
When was it?

877
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,000
Was it when O3 came out or something?

878
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,000
That you had to KYC for using the most powerful models?

879
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,000
That's still the case.

880
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,000
I don't mean I've ever provided...

881
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,000
Say, like, driving license and stuff.

882
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,000
That would have been, like, at least the light KYC for credit cards.

883
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,000
Yeah.

884
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,000
And stuff like that.

885
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,000
I don't know if it's then available via it.

886
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,000
Yeah.

887
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,000
I mean, they have it.

888
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,000
They have light KYC always just with the payment alone.

889
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,000
Yeah.

890
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,000
Yeah.

891
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,000
Yeah, no, but I think just in general, like, especially on the NOSTA sign,

892
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,000
what I love about NOSTA is that you don't have to do...

893
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,000
Use a name password, sign up for a new thing at all.

894
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,000
And I think that's so cool.

895
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,000
Yes.

896
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,000
Yeah.

897
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,000
That's so cool.

898
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,000
And it's also not a...

899
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,000
Well, you also, because you've got your own identity,

900
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,000
you log into an app and then...

901
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,000
Stuff's there.

902
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,000
Yeah, stuff's there.

903
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,000
And that's kind of...

904
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,000
That's also the idea of NIP16, NIP61, that just your...

905
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,000
Your e-cache is there with you as well.

906
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,000
And you have...

907
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,000
Like you said before, like, it stops you from trying stuff.

908
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,000
And the main idea of having like,

909
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,000
cash you follow you around,

910
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,000
is that you can actually try stuff.

911
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,000
And it's kind of, you know, like, it's pocket money.

912
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,000
Like, you should be fine to just lose it all the time.

913
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,000
Like, if it's gone, it's gone.

914
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,000
Yeah, I just...

915
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,000
But really, it's a bit more valuable.

916
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,000
It's actually somewhere in the middle.

917
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,000
Actually, it's actually not really gone, you know.

918
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:45,000
Like, the mint can always rug and recover.

919
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,000
Well, it's running costly.

920
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,000
But, yeah, I think that's why things are heading in terms of,

921
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,000
like, speaking to the chicken-ack problem that you mentioned,

922
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:59,000
like, how do you give people the e-cache that you would need to, you know,

923
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,000
like, make a permissionless API call, basically.

924
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,000
Because that's what we're talking about.

925
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,000
That's what cash enables.

926
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,000
Cash enables permissionless interaction in the sense,

927
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,000
because you actually...

928
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,000
You have to payment.

929
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,000
You have to payment up front, basically.

930
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,000
Like, that's how every corner store, every laminate stand, everything works.

931
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,000
Well, yeah, the consumer takes the risk.

932
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,000
Yeah.

933
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,000
The very brief window risk, is it, well, but...

934
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,000
Yeah.

935
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,000
Yeah, because I was looking...

936
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,000
So I was looking at doing maybe some, like, e-cache-based routing stuff myself.

937
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,000
And I was like, oh, but how do I...

938
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,000
I don't know how long the run's going to go for,

939
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,000
and I don't know how big the query is.

940
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,000
And I thought it's, like, one of the routes to guys.

941
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,000
And I got here and he was just like, oh, yeah, we just take a big payment

942
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,000
and then give you the change.

943
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,000
Yeah.

944
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,000
And I was like, why...

945
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,000
Why didn't I think of that?

946
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,000
Oh, so you were a shop.

947
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,000
Oh, I get it.

948
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,000
Perfect.

949
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,000
That's how I should work, isn't it?

950
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,000
Yeah, that's how I should work.

951
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,000
And then I used the consumer to take that initial risk.

952
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,000
Well, you're covered.

953
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:51,000
You can run the job.

954
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,000
Yeah.

955
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,000
I get the job back plus my change.

956
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,000
Yeah.

957
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,000
Super.

958
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,000
Yeah.

959
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,000
Yeah.

960
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,000
Yeah.

961
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,000
Again, I'm also very unsure how it will play out.

962
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,000
But I...

963
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,000
My hope is...

964
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,000
I think this is true quite a lot of Bitcoin stuff, right?

965
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,000
Is that you don't need to convince everybody that it's about Bitcoin.

966
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,000
You just convince them that they should do this thing,

967
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,000
that they can do now.

968
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,000
And Bitcoin comes along for the ride.

969
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,000
Yeah.

970
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,000
Or Nostya comes along for the ride.

971
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,000
Yeah.

972
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,000
And E-catch comes along for the ride.

973
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,000
We don't have to just sell everything on an ideological basis.

974
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,000
Oh, absolutely.

975
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,000
Absolutely.

976
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,000
No, I think it's a beautiful stuff.

977
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,000
It's the better solution and it's also...

978
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,000
It's also...

979
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,000
What...

980
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,000
What...

981
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,000
When I'm really annoyed about...

982
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,000
When I listen to the Silicon Valley Bros talk about all those kind of things.

983
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,000
Is...

984
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,000
They ignore...

985
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,000
Is it because you're listening to them?

986
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,000
I think that's...

987
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,000
It's a mistake number one.

988
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,000
It's a mistake number one.

989
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,000
I mostly annoyed about myself that I kind of forced myself to listen to them a little bit at least.

990
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,000
No, but you...

991
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:51,000
You kind of want to have a finger on the pulse of what the Silicon Valley thinking is because...

992
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,000
It is what's kind of shape...

993
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,000
Large parts of the ecosystem.

994
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,000
And...

995
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,000
What I think is interesting is that they...

996
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,000
Don't even realize that many of the problems that Bitcoin has identified are actual problems.

997
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:11,000
And for example, like building out a service that you charge other people for and so on.

998
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,000
In their world, it's very easy.

999
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,000
You just set up Stripe.

1000
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,000
Yeah.

1001
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,000
Okay, what do you need to get set up with Stripe?

1002
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,000
Yeah.

1003
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,000
You need...

1004
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,000
A whole mattress.

1005
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,000
You need a passport or something similar.

1006
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,000
You need to have an identity document and so on.

1007
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,000
That excludes like...

1008
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,000
Half the world.

1009
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,000
Half the world.

1010
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,000
Yeah.

1011
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,000
And you need to be...

1012
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,000
You need to be in a jurisdiction that's not sanctioned and so on and so forth.

1013
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,000
And you can be the platform at any time.

1014
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,000
So if you're in Silicon Valley, that works really well.

1015
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,000
That's fantastic.

1016
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:48,000
It's the easiest way and I don't want to discourage people to get set up with Stripe.

1017
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,000
That's fine.

1018
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,000
If it works for you, that's all.

1019
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,000
But what I would love to see, what I hope that E-Cache enables, like...

1020
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,000
And Noster as well, when it's just like...

1021
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,000
You're at 12 feet.

1022
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,000
I have to think about Aaron's words like once a day, just...

1023
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,000
In part, because his quote is on my wall and everything.

1024
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,000
Yeah.

1025
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,000
But he was...

1026
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,000
And I told the story before.

1027
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,000
But he was like, you know, 12 or so when he popped up in some IRC channel

1028
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,000
and started working on RSS.

1029
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,000
And, you know, these people exist today.

1030
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,000
You have 12-year-olds, 14-year-olds, and so on.

1031
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:23,000
Like, Peter Landles was another guy, you know, where he just started building out his first websites and so on.

1032
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,000
And wanted to accept money from people that are using his websites.

1033
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,000
And he was like 13 or 14 or whatever.

1034
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,000
And he had to, you know, convince his dad to sign up with some payment provider and all those kind of things.

1035
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,000
Yeah.

1036
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,000
And E-Cache and Noster make that really easy.

1037
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,000
Where you can...

1038
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,000
You can just do this things.

1039
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,000
You can just literally do stuff.

1040
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,000
And you have an N-POP.

1041
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,000
You're separable, basically.

1042
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,000
You have an N-POP.

1043
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,000
You can...

1044
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,000
You can charge for things.

1045
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:47,000
And that's kind of...

1046
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,000
You can just charge for things.

1047
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,000
Exactly.

1048
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,000
And you don't have to understand how everything works.

1049
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,000
And you don't have to be a bit gone maxi or anything.

1050
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,000
But it just works.

1051
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,000
And you don't have to ask anyone for permission.

1052
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,000
So that's kind of my...

1053
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:06,000
Many people that are actually in the San Francisco strata,

1054
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,000
they are running into these issues now.

1055
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:13,000
Like most famously David Heinemey Hansen, the exchange from Rubin Rez and so on.

1056
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,000
Where he just by building out competition to Gmail

1057
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:22,000
and not being willing to give the Apple tax of like 30% or whatever it is,

1058
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,000
he got the platform.

1059
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,000
And he is completely fed up now.

1060
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,000
Like I just listened to his Rails keynote two days ago.

1061
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,000
Completely fed up with a begging for permission.

1062
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,000
That's how he phrased it.

1063
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:40,000
And he really wants to make Rails a framework

1064
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,000
to both permissionless technology in some sense.

1065
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,000
So he's like 80% there.

1066
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,000
I would be working on this.

1067
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,000
So I think that's interesting that even the most privileged people...

1068
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,000
I mean, you know, he's a multi-millionaire.

1069
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:02,000
So even he runs into the issue of the platforming

1070
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,000
and the issue of having to back for permission

1071
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,000
just because you're developing your wrong hand.

1072
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,000
You're developing a really good email client.

1073
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,000
It's on the early enemy.

1074
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,000
Even like less about the platforming in a sense.

1075
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,000
The whole point that we're told about Silicon Valley being a great place

1076
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,000
is because of all the innovation and the trying stuff

1077
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,000
and move fast and break things.

1078
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,000
If you need like a hundred grand to get going.

1079
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,000
If you can just build something, there's already a network effect.

1080
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,000
There's already the ability to save money.

1081
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,000
There's all just there hair and frown.

1082
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,000
You know, your cost to experiment and to do new things goes way down.

1083
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,000
I mean, right here, just doing...

1084
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,000
You know, I was a little bit scared of the idea that,

1085
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,000
okay, I'm going to build something new every week.

1086
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,000
Like, I don't even build.

1087
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,000
You know, I look kind of like a play developer at the moment.

1088
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,000
But you can build.

1089
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,000
You can build stuff when you share it.

1090
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,000
We only introduce this kind of little rule because of wipecoding

1091
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,000
because it's actually possible.

1092
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,000
Otherwise, it would be insanity.

1093
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,000
But the point of it is kind of to...

1094
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:10,000
It's a constraint that requires you to kind of really dig deep

1095
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,000
and think hard.

1096
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,000
What do you want to have exist in some sense?

1097
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,000
Because it doesn't have to be polished.

1098
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,000
It doesn't even have to work.

1099
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,000
Just like try to get the idea across with like a first prototype.

1100
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,000
Or what have you...

1101
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,000
Yeah, but yeah, let's see how it goes.

1102
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,000
It's the first time we're actually trying to enforce it and so on.

1103
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,000
But we'll see.

1104
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:32,000
But the thing you mentioned about what kind of the cost of...

1105
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,000
The cost of starting something up.

1106
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,000
That's why I keep coming back to the analogy of ElaminateStand.

1107
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:46,000
The pre-bitcoin, it was basically impossible to do ElaminateStand in cyberspace.

1108
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,000
Because you had to go to your dad and ask to...

1109
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,000
Please set me up with Stripe and depending on which country you're from,

1110
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,000
it's actually impossible and all those kind of things.

1111
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,000
And now you can actually do that.

1112
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,000
And I really hope that we see more of that.

1113
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,000
Not everyone loves the analogy, by the way.

1114
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,000
I don't know why, I think, because ElaminateStand is like child's play.

1115
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,000
But I think child's play is fine.

1116
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,000
It's like, if you're literally a child and you build something useful...

1117
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,000
Like ElaminateStand.

1118
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,000
That is you charge money.

1119
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,000
Charge money and do something with it.

1120
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,000
And I think it's possible now.

1121
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,000
So that's my hope that we're going to see if many ElaminateStands.

1122
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,000
But the issue, of course, is that...

1123
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,000
What is actually...

1124
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,000
There aren't that many things that ask cars in cyberspace.

1125
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,000
There aren't water and lemonade and so on.

1126
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,000
It's very easy to sell.

1127
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,000
Everyone needs it all the time.

1128
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,000
It is, in the real world.

1129
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,000
Yeah.

1130
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,000
I mean, I think the difference is in cyberspace,

1131
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,000
you can sell services to people that can be consumed there and then...

1132
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,000
Yeah.

1133
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,000
And we talked about this a bunch on the good stuff podcast.

1134
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,000
I think we're going to relocalize a lot of stuff.

1135
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,000
Yeah.

1136
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,000
There's almost all the software that people consume around the world

1137
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,000
comes out of one small part of America.

1138
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,000
And that just seems quite strange.

1139
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,000
Yeah.

1140
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,000
Because those people at best can only build stuff

1141
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,000
for a very generic use case that they understand.

1142
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,000
Yeah.

1143
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,000
And it doesn't reflect most places around the world.

1144
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,000
Yeah.

1145
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,000
So if you take all the intelligence that they've got

1146
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,000
or any abilities and methodology,

1147
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,000
is coding systems, all this stuff.

1148
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,000
Yeah.

1149
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,000
And just make that freely available to anybody.

1150
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,000
I don't know why I would ever buy it from them.

1151
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,000
Yeah, sure.

1152
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,000
I mean, I think we see that already now with people in part

1153
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,000
moving away from AWS again.

1154
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,000
Like the DJ talked about this, for example.

1155
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,000
They moved their whole cloud infrastructure to their own bare metal.

1156
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,000
And in part, again, like one part is the permissionless part.

1157
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,000
You actually don't have to back for permission to run your own software.

1158
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,000
Yeah.

1159
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,000
The other part is it's actually more cost-effective.

1160
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,000
Yeah.

1161
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,000
If you know what you're doing and if you can set it up and so on,

1162
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,000
it's in the long run.

1163
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,000
It's cheaper to run your own.

1164
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,000
And I think on the Bitcoin side, for example,

1165
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,000
it's kind of similar.

1166
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,000
Yeah.

1167
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,000
There's many, many people that run notes and have home servers

1168
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,000
and all those kind of things.

1169
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,000
Yeah.

1170
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,000
And in terms of lemonade standing that what you can actually do,

1171
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,000
very easily now, I mean, we don't have all this boat out here

1172
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,000
that's on it.

1173
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,000
It's going to take still a while and blah, blah, blah.

1174
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:13,000
But at least in theory, it's very easy now to charge

1175
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,000
for your access compute, to charge for your access storage.

1176
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,000
Lots of shit coins were created for this kind of use cases.

1177
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,000
And Ekash makes it very easy now, very easy,

1178
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,000
where you just kind of, you can rent your access compute for inference

1179
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,000
or you're out just storage for storage.

1180
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,000
Yeah.

1181
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,000
So yeah, my hope is that we'll see more of that.

1182
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,000
We kind of see the first inklinks with paid relays

1183
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,000
and also paid blossom servers, those kind of things.

1184
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,000
And I think it will be, if we want to switch to,

1185
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,000
like this is that, you know, everyone agrees the internet is fucked.

1186
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,000
If we want to unfuck the internet,

1187
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,000
people will have to pay for it.

1188
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,000
Which means that anybody will have to agree the internet.

1189
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,000
It's fucked, unfortunately.

1190
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,000
So again, I don't know if that's going to be like a

1191
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,000
widely held normal belief.

1192
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,000
I mean, I agree with you.

1193
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,000
How is so?

1194
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:16,000
I don't think most people think that the current site guys

1195
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,000
is at least that, I don't know, Polaristations at an all-time high

1196
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,000
and TikTok is not necessarily a good for society.

1197
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,000
But I don't think people see that as the internet is fucked.

1198
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,000
There is like, maybe there's like slight new ones,

1199
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,000
but people hate social media right now.

1200
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,000
It's a cool thing, but you hate social media.

1201
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,000
Which makes me love it even more now.

1202
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:45,000
I mean, social media is highly effective at some point in the past

1203
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,000
of actually connecting people peer-to-peer.

1204
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,000
I mean, most of that aspect of social media has been taken away, unfortunately.

1205
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,000
Except in Noster, where everything seems to be more peer-to-peer.

1206
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,000
But I could imagine that people would get into

1207
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,000
thinking the internet is fucked because they hate social media more than they would do

1208
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,000
about the internet being fucked or being able to pay for it.

1209
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,000
Okay, fair enough.

1210
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:14,000
I mean, I'm so isolated and far down in my bubble.

1211
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,000
I have no idea what regular people think about the internet.

1212
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,000
I think for most people, the regular internet is probably,

1213
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:27,000
in Europe at least, is like WhatsApp and that's probably Instagram maybe.

1214
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,000
And I would like that.

1215
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,000
I feel like it's just a massive missed opportunity for what we could have had.

1216
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,000
Yeah, sure.

1217
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,000
Are you wondering?

1218
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,000
Yeah, no.

1219
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,000
I mean, that's still why I have such high hopes for Noster,

1220
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,000
because Noster, to me, represents what the internet could have been.

1221
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,000
It's still, again, like it has its flaws, it's imperfect and so on.

1222
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:54,000
But embedding on a native level identity and money into the internet is a big deal.

1223
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,000
It's a really big deal.

1224
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:01,000
Not only the internet and money, but cryptographic identity and cryptography at the base layer.

1225
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,000
Everything is signed.

1226
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,000
That alone removes the middleman, basically.

1227
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,000
Yeah, a larger open stuff is supposed to ask for it.

1228
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:15,000
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

1229
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,000
I have a very hard time kind of, I don't know.

1230
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,000
I'm just always blown away by how regular people,

1231
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,000
like sometimes when I'm, I don't know, at a plane or at a, like,

1232
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,000
whatever, public place where you have the ability to look into other people's phones.

1233
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:36,000
I sometimes look and I'm always, I'm always amazed how people kind of use their phones

1234
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,000
and what they do on, on their phones and so on.

1235
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,000
And it's just like it doesn't, I know I'm an outlier.

1236
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,000
I'm well aware.

1237
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,000
Why is your boss inside?

1238
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,000
So what's going on here?

1239
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:55,000
I watched an old lady on the last flight I was on,

1240
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,000
for like 45 minutes or so.

1241
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:04,000
I watched her rearrange her apps on the various home screen screen.

1242
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:09,000
Not only that, she also went in all the settings and cleared all the temporary files

1243
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,000
and caches and so on.

1244
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:12,000
That was interesting.

1245
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:18,000
And she was really, really, really cleaning up her phone.

1246
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:23,000
And I think she had like, it was like a Samsung whatever stock thing.

1247
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:29,000
And I think she had like four or so apps installed in addition to that.

1248
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,000
So it was like, like, you know, there was nothing to clean.

1249
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,000
So that was interesting.

1250
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,000
But no, I mean, for more, it's the big apps that everyone knows.

1251
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,000
That's what I usually see.

1252
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,000
It's Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, WhatsApp.

1253
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:44,000
I think that's it.

1254
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,000
I mean, I mean, I think this is probably by what I'm thinking when they say,

1255
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,000
I'm not sure people would say it's fact is that they're quite happy.

1256
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,000
They have these big networks.

1257
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,000
So they don't stop them at the moment, although I don't know.

1258
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,000
I mean, we've got this new bell that's supposed to be coming in at the end of the year in Australia

1259
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,000
to just stop using like almost anything.

1260
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,000
Yeah, yeah.

1261
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,000
Social media, but then it was also YouTube and then it was news.

1262
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,000
Who knows?

1263
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,000
Yeah, that's what I meant with kind of drilling.

1264
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,000
The site guys, right?

1265
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:17,000
Like in the UK, they had the child protection law that forced everyone

1266
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,000
to basically scan their passport to watch YouTube videos.

1267
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,000
Yeah.

1268
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:26,000
And yeah, I mean, I expect there'll be a big pushback.

1269
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,000
I mean, I know, you know, jokingly just say to the kids,

1270
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,000
well, government doesn't want you to watch YouTube anymore, so obviously you can't.

1271
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,000
You can't look at any videos today.

1272
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,000
You know, you're going to set them up properly early.

1273
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,000
Yeah.

1274
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,000
No, they should hate.

1275
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:44,000
It's still like a solid hate for government authorities early on.

1276
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,000
Yeah.

1277
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,000
But I dare say my kids could trivially work around this, you know.

1278
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,000
I mean, that's when we signed the UK as well, right?

1279
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:57,000
Like VPN users spiked by, I don't know, 180,000% or something ridiculous like that.

1280
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,000
Exactly.

1281
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:00,000
There's always a pushback.

1282
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:05,000
So I don't know quite exactly what they're going to do, what that will look like when it comes in

1283
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,000
and what the pushback will be.

1284
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,000
But I imagine it will just be a lot more people that do care about the internet.

1285
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,000
Yeah.

1286
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,000
Maybe you see it as well.

1287
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,000
Yeah.

1288
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,000
Yeah.

1289
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,000
I mean, we see it already now, like coming back to the...

1290
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,000
So maybe I'm wrong.

1291
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:19,000
E-cash.

1292
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:26,000
Like, why would someone use E-cash as opposed to an open router subscription as well?

1293
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,000
I mean, we see it already.

1294
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:33,000
Like in the current cohort, there's like a good handful of people that are very principled

1295
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,000
about their AI use.

1296
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,000
And again, they do it out of principle.

1297
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:45,000
So it's kind of, I'm not going to hand any of my identifying information to anthropic or open AI or what have you.

1298
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:51,000
And I think with early Bitcoin use, we saw the same where it's just like unprincipled people

1299
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,000
refusing to use credit cards or other payment systems and so on.

1300
00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:02,000
And like even going as far as killing off all their bank accounts, killing off all their, you know,

1301
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,000
fiat holdings and access to fiat and so on.

1302
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:10,000
It's been very hardcore about it, just out of ideological reasons.

1303
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,000
And I think the other side that we always see is you have no other choice.

1304
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,000
You're forced to use Bitcoin, you're forced to use a VPN, for example, you know.

1305
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:25,000
Also, like if you're in a country where the government restricts the access, you're forced to use a VPN.

1306
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:32,000
And I think this will just continue from both of these sides where I don't know.

1307
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,000
Like we see it in the app stores as well, right?

1308
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:47,000
Where some people will be forced to sideload apps or use something like App Store or similar to use a permissionless app store.

1309
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:54,000
Yeah, and yeah, that's kind of asking for permission is not a good pattern.

1310
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,000
It comes to your eye stuff.

1311
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:01,000
So if we can build the version where you don't have to ask for permission, they will just be better.

1312
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:06,000
So I may have to just rescind my earlier point, but maybe everybody does realize the internet is fucked.

1313
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:12,000
I mean, it's more that they're about to realize the internet is really fucked because the hammers coming down even harder.

1314
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,000
Let me also rephrase my argument slightly.

1315
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:21,000
Ten years ago, no one talked about these issues.

1316
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,000
No one.

1317
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:34,000
It wasn't part of the public discourse that there is an issue with big platforms, with app stores, with governments,

1318
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,000
which they access to the internet and so on.

1319
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,000
Like 10, 15 years ago, it was not an issue.

1320
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,000
Now I feel like it's everywhere in almost every country.

1321
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,000
It's the flavor of it might be different.

1322
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,000
Like again, in the US, for example, there was lots of payment related stuff.

1323
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:55,000
Like lots of companies, de-platformed by credit card companies and so on.

1324
00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:02,000
Like in the gaming world, for example, there was like, most of the many of the things came out of the gaming world, for example,

1325
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,000
might be refusing to pay up all the 30% tax.

1326
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,000
There was a big deal and a big lawsuit and so on.

1327
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:22,000
Then Valve apparently being forced by the credit card companies to kill all the adult quote-unquote content in steam in their gaming platform and so on.

1328
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,000
And this was all payment driven.

1329
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,000
Like in the US, it seems to be like the censorship is payment driven.

1330
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,000
A lot of it.

1331
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:33,000
In other countries, it's under like, protect the kids, like in the UK and so on.

1332
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,000
And just, I don't know.

1333
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:43,000
I feel like maybe this becomes so much of the speech, move to online and online platforms.

1334
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,000
And it can be restricted more easily or it's more obvious.

1335
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,000
Yeah, it's a bit harder and easier.

1336
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,000
Yeah.

1337
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,000
But maybe that's it.

1338
00:46:54,000 --> 00:47:01,000
I feel like, over the last 10-15 years, it changed a lot and it's more of a part of the public conversation in some sense.

1339
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,000
Yeah.

1340
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,000
All these internet things.

1341
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:05,000
Who knows again?

1342
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,000
Like I'm so deep in my...

1343
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,000
I'm so...

1344
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,000
My bubble is so well curated.

1345
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,000
Exactly.

1346
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,000
It's one of those areas.

1347
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,000
I'm probably the worst person to talk about.

1348
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:18,000
I know.

1349
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,000
I think it's like you and as well.

1350
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,000
It's not immediately obvious to me that everybody else would be feeling though.

1351
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,000
But that's been like a big shift, giving it good.

1352
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,000
But we should fix it, right?

1353
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,000
So...

1354
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,000
Here we are, right?

1355
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,000
Yolo mode.

1356
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,000
Fixing the internet.

1357
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,000
Trying to.

1358
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:39,000
Trying to fix parts of the internet.

1359
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,000
Yeah.

1360
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,000
It's a big task.

1361
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:43,000
It's a big task.

1362
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,000
But it's also like, I want to reflect for a minute or two.

1363
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,000
One of the similar things, like I mentioned before,

1364
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:53,000
like just paying in Bitcoin all the time here and how normally it is.

1365
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,000
And it just works.

1366
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,000
And you don't ever have to think about it.

1367
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,000
You don't marvel at the fact that it works basically.

1368
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,000
Yeah.

1369
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,000
And like we've come really far.

1370
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,000
We've come really far.

1371
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,000
Like for me, paying in Bitcoin every day and people are still shitting on lightning

1372
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,000
and other things that Bitcoin doesn't work and so on.

1373
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,000
Bitcoin wouldn't work.

1374
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:11,000
I would literally starve.

1375
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,000
So it really, really works.

1376
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,000
Yeah.

1377
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,000
And the same can be said about Noster.

1378
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,000
It's, it's flaws and so on and all those kind of things.

1379
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,000
But the fact that we were able in a relatively short amount of time,

1380
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,000
build a complete Twitter replacement basically,

1381
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,000
that actually works.

1382
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:27,000
Yeah.

1383
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,000
Then many people, like dozens, dozens of people.

1384
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,000
That dozens of it.

1385
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,000
Should we cross down to the heat zone?

1386
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:33,000
Should we cross down to the heat zone?

1387
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,000
Let's try.

1388
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,000
Because I have enough of these like pesky little lawn mowers out there.

1389
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,000
Let's, let's walk into traffic that makes it, that will make it better.

1390
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,000
Yeah.

1391
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,000
No, but, but I.

1392
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:48,000
I've been in Noster only for two and a half years now or so or something like that.

1393
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,000
And, and I don't need to use anything else.

1394
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,000
Again, I like my filter bubble.

1395
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,000
You know, like it's, it's just, yeah.

1396
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,000
I don't want to go out into the wild and actually read the news or, you know,

1397
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,000
talk to Normie.

1398
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,000
So what have you?

1399
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,000
But the fact that it works is amazing.

1400
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,000
And it really works.

1401
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,000
It really works.

1402
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,000
We haven't replaced YouTube yet.

1403
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,000
We haven't replaced whatever Netflix and other things yet and so on.

1404
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,000
It's not all of those things are broken.

1405
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,000
Yeah.

1406
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:18,000
But we managed to replace Twitter for a couple of dozen of people at least.

1407
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,000
Like I would say for it.

1408
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,000
Maybe a couple of hundred, like a hundred thousand maybe.

1409
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,000
I don't know.

1410
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,000
I mean, there's whole swaths of Noster that you know about.

1411
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:28,000
Well, exactly.

1412
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,000
Yeah.

1413
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,000
Japanese Noster.

1414
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,000
Yeah, exactly.

1415
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,000
Yeah.

1416
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,000
Every now and again, you look on the world bean.

1417
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,000
You're like the shit tons of Japanese people here.

1418
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,000
And, and, and like the hardcore ones you don't even see because they,

1419
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,000
they geo block all the relays.

1420
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,000
Yeah.

1421
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:47,000
You have to, you have to switch you VPN to Japanese to be able to see the part of Noster.

1422
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,000
Which I think is very interesting.

1423
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:57,000
But that said, that was the original promise of Noster that you would have kind of these communities

1424
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,000
self-organize and organically appear.

1425
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:06,000
And you wouldn't have one central server be in control of all the things that you wouldn't have one global view.

1426
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:07,000
And that's what we see happening.

1427
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,000
The norm here is the traffic stops for you, isn't it?

1428
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:11,000
Yeah, sometimes.

1429
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,000
Yeah.

1430
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,000
It's like it depends on how touristy you look.

1431
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:15,000
Yeah.

1432
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,000
Well, I'm walking around with this Austrian guy.

1433
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,000
Yeah, so it's, they, they, clearly I can't.

1434
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,000
You know, I kind of look like a terrorist, so they better stop.

1435
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:33,000
But yeah, no, I think my point is just like we, we, we are often too close to all this stuff.

1436
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,000
And just purely critical.

1437
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,000
Like the engineering mind is just mostly critical, right?

1438
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,000
You know what is still broken and how the thing can fall down and so on.

1439
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:48,000
But it's amazing what we were able to build just in a, you know, like Noster is like three short years basically.

1440
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,000
And it's like no funding.

1441
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,000
It's like sort of like no funding.

1442
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:53,000
Yeah.

1443
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,000
Well, any of the other stuff is going on in all these different things.

1444
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,000
Compared to the things that are very little funny.

1445
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,000
Yeah, talk to me about that a little bit.

1446
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,000
Like you come from the business slash finest rod a little bit.

1447
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,000
Like you know a lot about it.

1448
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,000
And you, you, you, you are so bad at it.

1449
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:12,000
You, you know more about it than, than, than most people.

1450
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:20,000
So how do you, in terms of, yeah, let's talk about funding maybe.

1451
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,000
Like how, what, what, how do you think this could be solved in long term?

1452
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,000
Because I think right now it is an issue.

1453
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:31,000
And I say that as someone who is, you know, like close to the funding question.

1454
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:37,000
I don't think funding is the problem because I think it implies the wrong thing.

1455
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:38,000
Okay.

1456
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,000
Which is weird because I just said funding, right?

1457
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,000
I think it's great that it's grown to what it has without so much.

1458
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:49,000
So when I say that is, I think we just need to bootstrap stuff.

1459
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,000
Like I actually don't think so.

1460
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,000
Yeah.

1461
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:58,000
I think what we need is lots of useful services that just happen to use Noster and happen to use Bitcoin.

1462
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,000
But then wouldn't find that you charge people.

1463
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:02,000
Yeah, you charge people.

1464
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:03,000
Yeah.

1465
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:04,000
But that's why it has to be useful.

1466
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,000
That also, yeah.

1467
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,000
Okay. Fair enough.

1468
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,000
And we live in a world where a lot of stuff is free.

1469
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,000
That's the issue.

1470
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:14,000
To me, it seems like, to me, it seems like there it needs to maybe,

1471
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:15,000
should we walk down here?

1472
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:16,000
Maybe it might be.

1473
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:17,000
I don't know.

1474
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:18,000
I don't know.

1475
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:19,000
Yeah.

1476
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:20,000
You can.

1477
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:21,000
Maybe we'll be traffic at all times.

1478
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:22,000
Feet in the ocean.

1479
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:26,000
It's, it's, it's, it's paradoxical because now we're following the only traffic there is.

1480
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,000
Yeah.

1481
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:28,000
It should be.

1482
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,000
It should work out in the long run.

1483
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,000
You see me going around on the little stand-up paddle boards around here.

1484
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:34,000
It looks nice.

1485
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:35,000
Yeah, it's very nice.

1486
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,000
Now let's, let's, let's walk all the way to the fork, maybe.

1487
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,000
Yeah.

1488
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,000
Let's see if we can do it.

1489
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:46,000
And then, then, then, I probably will be like very much,

1490
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,000
death by heat stroke in the situation.

1491
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:50,000
But we'll see.

1492
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:51,000
We'll see.

1493
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,000
Well, we're going to make it.

1494
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,000
So I kind of think this is the, um,

1495
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:59,000
benefit of AI really is that a lot of the actual,

1496
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,000
the cost of developing these new solutions, these new systems and things and finding

1497
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,000
like useful things that you could do is going to go right down.

1498
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:07,000
Yeah.

1499
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,000
And so then the question is, oh, why would anybody pay for something?

1500
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:11,000
What?

1501
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:12,000
Because you're solving a pain point for somebody.

1502
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:13,000
Yeah.

1503
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:17,000
So half the problem we have with the generation of software is that people just build stuff

1504
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,000
because they really like software and the people that really like software,

1505
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:21,000
the only people that can build software.

1506
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:22,000
Yeah.

1507
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:26,000
So all of a sudden, you've got a whole stack of people that could never do this before.

1508
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,000
You can now come into this area and build, you know, a ship version of something

1509
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:31,000
that somebody else can fix.

1510
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:32,000
Yeah.

1511
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:33,000
Yeah.

1512
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:37,000
But if you build something, there's a bit ropey and insecure, but you made money out of it.

1513
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,000
Somebody else can come and build a better version that is more secure,

1514
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,000
but we just build on it.

1515
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:46,000
I think all that comes back down to just the cost of that experimentation needs to be really low.

1516
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,000
And there needs to be some sort of network that you can launch it into.

1517
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:50,000
Yeah.

1518
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,000
But then every single one of those useful services builds on that network.

1519
00:53:54,000 --> 00:54:00,000
And so with Noster, AI, eCache, Bitcoin, they all just come together in that system.

1520
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:04,000
They're like, well, we just need to keep putting useful information and useful services out.

1521
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:05,000
Yeah.

1522
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:06,000
On this platform.

1523
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,000
Yeah.

1524
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:12,000
And then I think, and if people are getting paid, you don't really need the funding so much.

1525
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:13,000
Yeah.

1526
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:14,000
Yeah.

1527
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:15,000
Absolutely.

1528
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:18,000
We shouldn't need funding, but like, yeah.

1529
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:19,000
Yeah.

1530
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:27,000
It's, I mean, BitChat is a great example in terms of providing a useful app that still works if everything else breaks down,

1531
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,000
because it just, you can use Bluetooth.

1532
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:35,000
And so if, even if the government shuts down everything, you Bluetooth thing will still work.

1533
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:40,000
And you can at least, if you're together at the protest that would have you communicate.

1534
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:45,000
And the neat thing about BitChat is, of course, the Trojan Horse mechanic

1535
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:51,000
that if there isn't a connectivity, it will use Noster to allow you to further communicate and so on.

1536
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:58,000
And I think we'll see a bunch of those things where people use Noster and use ECache without even really knowing it.

1537
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:05,000
We saw this already with podcasting 2.0 and also in large part with every time new people came into Noster,

1538
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:10,000
there were people receiving Saps, and they had no idea what Saps were or that it was Bitcoin and so on.

1539
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:18,000
And I think this will just kind of continue to happen, but it's, I think the hard part will be to figure out what to sell.

1540
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:25,000
Like what it relates to what you said before that most people are used to the internet being free and all these services being free.

1541
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:26,000
Yeah.

1542
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:35,000
No one has an issue with paying for Uber, paying for Airbnb, paying for like everyone understands that these things are scarce and you have to pay for them.

1543
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:43,000
But it's interesting because you mentioned also the AI stuff that it's very worthwhile to pay for it once you use it.

1544
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,000
And it is actually compute is an actually scarce resource.

1545
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,000
And I think storage is as well.

1546
00:55:49,000 --> 00:56:00,000
I mean people are perfectly fine with paying for whatever their Google or Apple thing to like you get free whatever how many gigabytes and if you want to keep your photos and your videos,

1547
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:07,000
you just pay the monthly fee and then you have the free start and then they turn the screws and then it's not free, but people pay.

1548
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:18,000
Sure. I mean that's going to Silicon Valley model and yeah, I mean I would be interested to see statistics on what we have now because we do have paid relays, we do have paid services and so on.

1549
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:29,000
I have no idea how many people actually what the numbers are, how many people pay for it and like also for image and video hosting and so on like media hosting.

1550
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:38,000
I mean definitely trying to like get, you know, if you've had several years of Google photos, trying to get the data out of that and into some useful form.

1551
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:44,000
I mean, you have to rely on that and then just to get it out to be able to realize that nothing's ever getting backed up.

1552
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,000
But you know, we could have solutions to this.

1553
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,000
That could be provisioned by like multiple different people.

1554
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,000
Yeah, absolutely.

1555
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,000
It requires a lot of engineering of course.

1556
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:58,000
Like it's like Google also didn't build this out in a day.

1557
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,000
No, unfortunately.

1558
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:05,000
And they had lots of funding and they made lots of money on top of it.

1559
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:11,000
But it's kind of nice like again, if you have like the open protocols for it, you can just build on top of blossom for that.

1560
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:15,000
You know, you don't necessarily need to do all the file system replication stuff yourself.

1561
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,000
We can pick that up and use it.

1562
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,000
So having a lot of these blocks there.

1563
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,000
I mean, I guess to go back to the funding thing when I was answering that.

1564
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:27,000
I was thinking of it from a term of like, so you talk about Silicon Valley type funding.

1565
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:28,000
Yeah.

1566
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,000
Which I think implies that I'm going to make this big thing that takes over the moment.

1567
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:32,000
Yeah.

1568
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:33,000
And I think that model isn't entirely incorrect.

1569
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:37,000
Obviously a lot of the funding we see in Noster is more open source developer funding.

1570
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:38,000
Yeah.

1571
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,000
Which I think is is probably a different thing.

1572
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:45,000
Like because there is a lot of this stuff that just does need to exist and then be reusable by others.

1573
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:50,000
But it's just, they do hails need to fit into business models.

1574
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:51,000
Yeah, absolutely.

1575
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,000
It's trying to figure out what those are.

1576
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:55,000
Yeah.

1577
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:56,000
Yeah, absolutely.

1578
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:57,000
It's a very hard problem.

1579
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:01,000
It's also, I mean, I talked to Pablo about this in the past.

1580
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:13,000
And also kind of a part of the idea of sovereign engineering from the get go was kind of to, to, to hopefully together in dialogue and through experimentation figure out what some business models could be.

1581
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:21,000
But we very quickly kind of came to the conclusion that everything in Noster is just still way too small.

1582
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:22,000
Yeah.

1583
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:33,000
And, and even if you have money flowing through the system and it's like on the one side it's small on the other side it also kind of isn't because it is the largest Bitcoin circle economy that we have in the world.

1584
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:42,000
We're just kind of amazing, like in terms of, in terms of, of, of, of the amount of microtransactions that are happening on, on Noster is like it's mind blown.

1585
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:50,000
Like the numbers are, are quite insane for, you know, like, again, like a couple of months ago, basically, like it barely worked.

1586
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:51,000
You know what I mean?

1587
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,000
Like saps are a relatively new thing and so on.

1588
00:58:54,000 --> 00:59:03,000
And, and, and yeah, so it's, it's, it's probably both a little bit bigger than most people would think.

1589
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:13,000
But also in terms of actually building profitable businesses and top of it, it's still way too small and like it's, yeah, I don't know.

1590
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:22,000
So that was kind of our conclusion and then we just decided to focus more on the experimentation and ideation part and not on the like what could the business model be kind of thing.

1591
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:32,000
And maybe AI changes that maybe AI with kind of making it very easy to access various kinds of compute without the need for 25 different accounts.

1592
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:43,000
Like maybe maybe that's something like having a thin Noster layer around various scars resources is something that could actually work.

1593
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:59,000
I also think, yeah, I don't know if you're thinking the same way I am at the moment, but it's one thing that me and Andy talk about a lot is just like maybe like the Bitcoin, the E cash, the Noster stuff is all actually just incidental to the business.

1594
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:07,000
It's like, you know, like you're, I don't know, maybe you're a bad example because you're very just in the middle of all of this stuff.

1595
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:12,000
But it's some, you know, there's lots of ways to earn money and also be on Noster.

1596
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:18,000
And that just happens to be like where you communicate and how you communicate a bunch of things or how you advertise stuff.

1597
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:19,000
Explain it somewhere.

1598
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:24,000
What I'm thinking is that there's plenty of businesses that you can have that are just profitable businesses.

1599
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,000
Oh, and you're also on Noster.

1600
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:32,000
And I think like all the people that are selling soap and wine and other things on Noster.

1601
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:34,000
It's a start, right?

1602
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:38,000
You know, the reason there is, they can come along and they will actually make money.

1603
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,000
They will make more money than somebody that sells.

1604
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,000
Oh, they would like cheap quips and zaps.

1605
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:43,000
I don't know.

1606
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:44,000
Maybe not you.

1607
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,000
But the soap, the one artist.

1608
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:47,000
Yeah, so mine.

1609
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:48,000
Of course.

1610
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,000
But is it about art or whatever?

1611
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,000
Yeah.

1612
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:56,000
I was surprised to find out this man actually because it was a very feminine sounding mint name.

1613
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,000
No offense.

1614
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:08,000
But he actually shared the numbers in terms of how many things he posted on Twitter and tried to sell.

1615
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,000
And he made like one sale on Twitter or something.

1616
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,000
And Noster was something ridiculous.

1617
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:18,000
Like I don't know like 40 or 50 or whatever in like no time.

1618
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,000
That's an interesting data point in and of itself.

1619
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:22,000
Yeah, exactly.

1620
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:23,000
It's like the internet, right?

1621
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,000
It's not like there's been no money made on the internet.

1622
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:26,000
Yeah, sure.

1623
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,000
The internet necessarily that makes the money.

1624
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:34,000
You sort of wonder if we're, you know, we overdoing it trying to figure out like what are all the.

1625
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:35,000
That's a nice one.

1626
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:40,000
What are all the nice like compute friendly or virtual business models that work.

1627
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,000
Almost as though we're trying to like capture something.

1628
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:47,000
That should just be free anyway because everyone's kind of running their own stuff.

1629
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:48,000
Yeah.

1630
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:52,000
And maybe the key is then just go back and say like what do people actually value?

1631
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:53,000
What do they use?

1632
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,000
Why don't we just sell them that?

1633
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:56,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1634
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,000
And maybe Noster is just the most frictionless way of getting it.

1635
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:04,000
Because that's what I feel like in terms of when I, when I owe people money,

1636
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:08,000
like if we go like lunch somewhere and so on and it's just like someone pays and like,

1637
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:09,000
yeah, just set me on us.

1638
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:10,000
Yeah.

1639
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:11,000
It's the easiest way by far.

1640
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:15,000
It's just like, I mean, if you're just hanging out with Bitcoin,

1641
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,000
it's like that's the least friction because you as a receiver,

1642
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,000
you don't have to do anything and even as a sender,

1643
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:22,000
it's literally one time.

1644
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,000
Yeah.

1645
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:24,000
It's literally one time.

1646
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:29,000
And maybe because the people that we listed before with, you know, like,

1647
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:30,000
fire water.

1648
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:31,000
Sorry.

1649
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,000
That's why it's not day like you.

1650
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:34,000
They're a great case.

1651
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:38,000
No, but the soap miner let them in.

1652
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:44,000
There's all those people that sell, again, pionilane wines and so on.

1653
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:47,000
They're selling regular high quality products to other Bitcoiners.

1654
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,000
And they want to sell two Bitcoiners.

1655
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,000
They want to sell exclusively for Bitcoin.

1656
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,000
And not seriously the easiest way to do it.

1657
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:58,000
And as far as I know, most people actually just kind of do the amps and saps and stuff.

1658
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:02,000
It's just like because it's a trust relationship anyway.

1659
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:06,000
You know, like, you're not, you're not going to get scammed probably.

1660
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:10,000
It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's no one's best interest to get scammed here.

1661
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:11,000
Yeah.

1662
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:12,000
Yeah.

1663
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:15,000
Well, there's a different sort of trust lab that's filled up because you have these common interests.

1664
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:16,000
Yeah.

1665
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,000
The fact to be hanging around with internet friends for years.

1666
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:19,000
Yeah.

1667
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:20,000
Yeah.

1668
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:22,000
But I mean, I mean, that's a good point.

1669
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:26,000
We should be looking at is just, but I spend quite a lot of time working on this with stat work.

1670
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:32,000
But kind of, there's a lot of businesses that make money and are highly inefficient.

1671
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:33,000
Don't work very well.

1672
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:35,000
And AI can't automate an awful lot of tasks.

1673
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:36,000
Yeah.

1674
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,000
I think we should be looking very carefully.

1675
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:42,000
Like, okay, well, how do we start buying businesses that exist that are profitable?

1676
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,000
And then just stripping costs now.

1677
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:51,000
And I think this could just be a great way of like having my little Bitcoin businesses that are Bitcoin businesses.

1678
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,000
They just businesses that happen to provide services in the real world.

1679
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:57,000
They'll accept Bitcoin because they happen to be run by Bitcoin.

1680
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:05,000
And do you think it will be Bitcoiners that help kind of make this business the way I think Bitcoin should get involved?

1681
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:10,000
And would you just kind of in terms of what's your, what's your vision for that?

1682
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:16,000
The savings that you're able to make just buy Bitcoin with that and turn those things into small.

1683
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:17,000
Yeah.

1684
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:22,000
I mean, this is a strategy for the whole premise of what we talk about on other stuff.

1685
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:23,000
We have this value curve.

1686
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,000
Now you catch a curve.

1687
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,000
Just like what happens is somebody comes along, you buy an AI.

1688
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,000
You buy a company, you take out all the cost of that company.

1689
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,000
You create a massive amount of competition.

1690
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:36,000
The competition comes in easily or margin because there was nothing that was defensible.

1691
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,000
It's just a straight automation work.

1692
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:41,000
So then the cost of the whole thing goes down and you kind of stuck.

1693
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,000
So you have, in fact, you don't really have like a long-term business model,

1694
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,000
but you have an excellent arbitrage.

1695
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,000
Probably about five years time.

1696
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:49,000
Yeah.

1697
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:53,000
Well, you could own these businesses, take out a lot of cost, provide a good service.

1698
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,000
And then just bank the money into Bitcoin.

1699
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:56,000
Yeah.

1700
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,000
But then you still have the business at the end of it.

1701
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:00,000
Like, normally it hasn't done as well.

1702
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,000
But it's paid off because of the Bitcoin.

1703
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:07,000
Is this already happening in some businesses that you're aware of?

1704
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:10,000
Or is it pure theory for now?

1705
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:13,000
No, it's starting.

1706
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:15,000
There's like a couple, but not.

1707
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:17,000
It's not widespread and it's not done a scale.

1708
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:18,000
Yeah.

1709
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,000
I know there's people that are very interested in doing a scale.

1710
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,000
But then I think start not at scale.

1711
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:24,000
Yeah.

1712
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:25,000
Yeah.

1713
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,000
Yeah.

1714
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:29,000
And then the question is, like, do you start by starting the business from scratch?

1715
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:34,000
Should you start by going and buying somebody and then sending it around?

1716
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:35,000
Yeah.

1717
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:36,000
Yeah.

1718
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:40,000
I know from like, say my point of view, Australia is not like, say if you're in the US,

1719
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:42,000
you could probably just buy somebody, fire everybody.

1720
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:43,000
Yeah.

1721
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,000
I didn't really fit how I would like to do business.

1722
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:46,000
Yeah.

1723
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:47,000
It's like acquiring somebody to it.

1724
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:51,000
So I'm probably more in the camp of starting businesses and then running them up.

1725
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:52,000
Yeah.

1726
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:54,000
At the moment, I'm mainly working on the tooling to do this for myself.

1727
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:55,000
Yeah.

1728
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:56,000
Yeah.

1729
01:05:56,000 --> 01:06:01,000
I heard you talk about that a little bit in the sense of kind of, yeah, what can actually be,

1730
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:09,000
what management stuff, what document manipulation things that the business does can be replaced by agents

1731
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:12,000
and can be replaced by LLAMs and so on.

1732
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,000
What's your thinking on that?

1733
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:18,000
Are we, because I, I don't know, that doesn't work.

1734
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:19,000
Connect.

1735
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:20,000
No, we'll have to swim.

1736
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:21,000
We'll have to swim.

1737
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:31,000
But I'm still a little bit skeptical of those ideas in the sense of.

1738
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:37,000
There's still quite a bit of human oversight required.

1739
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:38,000
Yes.

1740
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:43,000
So letting LLAMs run loose is, well, not the best idea.

1741
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,000
Keep that guy in mind.

1742
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,000
We're going to, we're going to, we're going to, he's just drilling.

1743
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:54,000
Is that a little drill from LLAM or is to, it's almost like a mini jackhammer or something,

1744
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:55,000
some of the thing, right?

1745
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:57,000
Someone's going to drill the floor.

1746
01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:58,000
Yeah.

1747
01:06:58,000 --> 01:06:59,000
They will drill the floors.

1748
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:05,000
Look at, look at, look at, look at this nice thing with this shame, if there wouldn't be any construction noises.

1749
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:06,000
Yeah.

1750
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:09,000
So, well, I think it depends on what you do, right?

1751
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:15,000
But your, your, my guess would be that you, the main thing you're using these agents for would be coding work.

1752
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,000
Which is already happening in LLAMs.

1753
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:19,000
Yeah, I mean, it's happening.

1754
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:20,000
Yeah.

1755
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,000
But also, it's a, it's a pretty complex task.

1756
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:23,000
Yeah.

1757
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:30,000
You know, you can't just take a, yeah, like a standard person out of high school and set them in a chair and say,

1758
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,000
like, all right, you just code this for me.

1759
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:33,000
Yeah.

1760
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:34,000
And so it's quite incredible.

1761
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:41,000
I mean, the reason it's so accelerated there is just that everybody that has the capability to understand.

1762
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,000
I think how impactful these things are often works in that space.

1763
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:45,000
Yeah.

1764
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:49,000
And a lot of coding people are generally quite happy to simplify their own jobs.

1765
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:50,000
Yeah.

1766
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:51,000
And so it fits quite nicely.

1767
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:52,000
Yeah, yeah.

1768
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:53,000
It fits quite nicely.

1769
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:54,000
Yeah.

1770
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:55,000
In some sense.

1771
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:58,000
And so I think it gets applied there, but I think that's not the simplest place to apply.

1772
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:05,000
But the more you see it being useful there, the more you think like, okay, there's a lot of jobs that are a lot simpler than this.

1773
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:06,000
Yeah.

1774
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:07,000
Yeah.

1775
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:08,000
That have got much simpler training where, yeah.

1776
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:12,000
You know, even jobs where you don't even need to really apply too much intelligence,

1777
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:14,000
it's just like fuzzy pattern matching systems.

1778
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:15,000
Yeah.

1779
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:16,000
Yeah.

1780
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:20,000
Like most, you know, like most SaaS systems that have been developed where, you know,

1781
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:22,000
it's just a form on the database.

1782
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:23,000
Yeah.

1783
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:30,000
And then the person sitting in the chair is just there to be like a little fuzzy matching system to put the form in for a process.

1784
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:31,000
Sure.

1785
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:32,000
Yeah.

1786
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:33,000
I mean, there's a lot of stuff there.

1787
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:37,000
It's just finding either the business for sale or the market.

1788
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:38,000
Yeah.

1789
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:39,000
Yeah.

1790
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:47,000
And to your point, it's probably going to be new startups kind of taking over the old systems because just sharing inertia of the old.

1791
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:51,000
Like they're not going to fire all the people and change everything and so on.

1792
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:52,000
Yeah.

1793
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,000
Most, most established businesses, right?

1794
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:56,000
Like they just, they'll just be out competed.

1795
01:08:56,000 --> 01:09:02,000
Usually, we looked at it in the, like rental management plan.

1796
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:03,000
Yeah.

1797
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:09,000
It's like, you know, it just happens to have bumped into a guy and he was like, guy, fucking like worst day.

1798
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:15,000
I'm dealing with all these property managers or bullshit and they'll cost me so much money and the salaries have gone up 50%.

1799
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,000
You're like, what do they have to do?

1800
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:19,000
And it's like, they're mainly organizing stuff backwards and forwards and email.

1801
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:20,000
Yeah.

1802
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:21,000
And it's like, huh.

1803
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:22,000
And how many do you have?

1804
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,000
It's like, oh, about, you know, 20 of them.

1805
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:25,000
It's like, huh.

1806
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:26,000
Interesting.

1807
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:28,000
You're like, how long does it take to train them?

1808
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,000
It's like, well, they've got to pass this certificate.

1809
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:32,000
You know, like, you know, I can tell them what to do.

1810
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:35,000
They're supposed to follow this checklist and it's all laid out.

1811
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:36,000
Yeah.

1812
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:37,000
Interesting.

1813
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,000
Yeah.

1814
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:44,000
That's probably like 2000 of these remains.

1815
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:48,000
There's all sorts of these businesses that you just, you realize, hang on a minute.

1816
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,000
There's a lot of just manual processing.

1817
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:51,000
Yeah.

1818
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:59,000
So, well, what would you do if they, if they nobody had to do all of this manual processing chasing stuff up, entering forms and trying to stuff down, following up?

1819
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:01,000
And it's like, oh, you know what I would do.

1820
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:07,000
So, I would just go and hire maybe two, like, really good ex nurses.

1821
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,000
You know, they just got really good bedside minds.

1822
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:12,000
It's the sort of people that you're just going to like if you meet them.

1823
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:13,000
Yeah.

1824
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:14,000
And I would have them.

1825
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:16,000
And then they could just, they could just chat to people.

1826
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:17,000
They wouldn't have to do any of the donkey work.

1827
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,000
But we just offloaded it all.

1828
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:20,000
And you're like, yeah, you know what?

1829
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,000
This would be a much better letting agents to get a house from.

1830
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:23,000
Yeah.

1831
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:24,000
All of a sudden.

1832
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:25,000
Interesting.

1833
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:30,000
There's a lot of people heavy businesses that you could look at.

1834
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:34,000
And then I don't know, like, the question to me, and it's like, well, is there anything to do with Noster?

1835
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:35,000
Oh, Bitcoin.

1836
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:36,000
Yeah.

1837
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:37,000
I mean, I would just accept it.

1838
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,000
So, it could be.

1839
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,000
But.

1840
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:43,000
Yeah, I mean.

1841
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:47,000
I'm, I haven't made up my mind yet with all the, a lot of them stuff.

1842
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,000
I'm, again, I'm still skeptical.

1843
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:50,000
I use it a bunch.

1844
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,000
I've used it a lot ever since the last cord, basically.

1845
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:58,000
Again, like I started coding again properly because I actually don't have to code anymore.

1846
01:10:58,000 --> 01:10:59,000
I can live code.

1847
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:02,000
And it's way more enjoyable.

1848
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:06,000
And it also like.

1849
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:11,000
When I discovered this, like you, you, the hard part is, or at least that's true for me,

1850
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:22,000
the hard part is kind of figuring out what to build in the, in the same sense of like the hard part for what you have to describe will be to figuring out what kind of businesses actually match this profile.

1851
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:23,000
Yes.

1852
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:28,000
And, and, and then also like, how do you make this transition right and all those kind of things?

1853
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:32,000
And again, like do you start from scratch as a startup or take something else over and so on?

1854
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:33,000
Yeah.

1855
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:40,000
And, and, and, and for me as well, like what, what is actually viable and can actually be, what can actually be.

1856
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:48,000
Easily prompted into existence because it's a combination of two or three existing things.

1857
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:53,000
And all of these existing things are open source projects and I can just point.

1858
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:54,000
Yeah.

1859
01:11:54,000 --> 01:12:00,000
My agent's on them and it's like, okay, take this part from here and take the other part from here and match the other thing up and then it just works.

1860
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:01,000
Yeah.

1861
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:12,000
And, and the, the reason why I'm still skeptical in some sense of like, I don't know, like to, to me, it seems.

1862
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:15,000
I don't know.

1863
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,000
Like, I'm, I'm of two minds.

1864
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:29,000
Alan Franklin has to think that it's just another tool and all it will do is make the production of code much cheaper, which means we'll have much more code.

1865
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,000
And so on and so forth.

1866
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:38,000
Very similar argument to the digital camera is just a tool and we'll make everything cheaper and we'll have way more images and so on, which is treated.

1867
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:39,000
Yeah.

1868
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:42,000
Like with like surveillance cameras and dash cams and so on.

1869
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:51,000
And, um, however, like I, I, the reason why I'm, why I'm of two minds is, is Alan Adams are different.

1870
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:58,000
AI agents are different in terms of all the previous tools I've used before in the computing world.

1871
01:12:58,000 --> 01:12:59,000
I've used many tools.

1872
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:01,000
I've been around for a long time.

1873
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,000
But why do you look so young and handsome?

1874
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,000
What's going on?

1875
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:05,000
Oh, thanks.

1876
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:08,000
It's just, you know, like it's a, it's a, it's all there.

1877
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:09,000
No, no, no, no.

1878
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:10,000
No, I'm not going to go into it.

1879
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:12,000
I'm just drunk.

1880
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:13,000
Exactly.

1881
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:15,000
You have to be, I just posted that reason.

1882
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:16,000
You have to be drunk on something.

1883
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:17,000
Yeah.

1884
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:18,000
Whether this doesn't matter.

1885
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:23,000
Whether it's, you know, like women or alcohol or poetry, like pick something, but be drunk on it.

1886
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:24,000
No.

1887
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:34,000
Um, there is such a thing as a difference in degree that results in a difference of kind.

1888
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:36,000
Like weapons, for example.

1889
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:41,000
The atomic bomb is not just another weapon.

1890
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:46,000
It is a different thing, even though it can be described as a weapon.

1891
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:48,000
But it's not a weapon, just like a gun is a weapon.

1892
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:52,000
It's not an upgrade of the gun or an upgrade of a regular like bundle of TNT.

1893
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:53,000
Yeah, it's a really different thing.

1894
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:56,000
It actually has the capacity to end the world as we know it.

1895
01:13:56,000 --> 01:14:00,000
Which makes it, it has its own category almost.

1896
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:07,000
And that's how I see LLAMs in some sense where, where if the promise of LLAMs is fulfilled or not, not email LLAMs.

1897
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:08,000
Let's say AI.

1898
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:09,000
Okay.

1899
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:11,000
And I don't even care if it's weak or strong AI.

1900
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,000
It's just like replay, like you said.

1901
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:14,000
Yeah.

1902
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:15,000
Replacing middlemen.

1903
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,000
Mainly just tool looking from here.

1904
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:18,000
I think we've got it.

1905
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:21,000
I think we've got everything we need in the state of the models.

1906
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:22,000
It's slightly better tools.

1907
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:23,000
Interesting.

1908
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:24,000
I think I disagree.

1909
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:25,000
Okay.

1910
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:26,000
But interesting.

1911
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:27,000
Okay.

1912
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:30,000
But I might be very wrong.

1913
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:36,000
Like I can, if I, if I squint I can see it kind of.

1914
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:39,000
Do you want to finish your category thing and then move?

1915
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:40,000
Yeah.

1916
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:45,000
Because I'll try to, I'm not sure if I'm able to finish it.

1917
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:47,000
But it's going to look at that stripey thing.

1918
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:48,000
Let's do it.

1919
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:56,800
Yeah. So, these are elements like a different category in the same way that like a nuclear

1920
01:14:56,800 --> 01:15:05,560
bomb would be a different, it's not really just a weapon. Yeah, and the, if the, like some

1921
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:09,160
of the things we are working on as well, it's like you have agents that are just running

1922
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:15,280
in the background and you basically you have like as many Eastern European development

1923
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:20,400
teams as you like for like basically almost no money running at all times fulfilling

1924
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:25,040
your wishes. Sounds lovely. And you are just like in charge directing the various

1925
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:33,200
teams and just like building stuff out as you see fit. Yeah. And, and I feel like we

1926
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:38,360
are close to that in some sense. And then the question, yeah, I'm not sure, I'm not sure

1927
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:48,440
what the question is. But I think the point I was trying to make is that is, that is different

1928
01:15:48,440 --> 01:15:53,760
than most of the computer programs and tools we had before. In some sense also like for example

1929
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:59,640
that maybe one difference here is that like if you had really good software, software tools

1930
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:04,680
like they stopped as soon as the first stopped coding. Yeah. Right. Like most tools like

1931
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:08,680
accelerate the output of what you put into them. This one you actually don't need to put

1932
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:14,560
into them. Yeah. I may be there is the kernel of the idea, but yeah. I was thinking that

1933
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:19,400
might make a good demo. But you just have the machine come up with its own ideas and then

1934
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:26,080
implement them and then demo for me on Friday. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the, the, the,

1935
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:30,920
the spark that comes out of that is just still human generator. That's what all, all the

1936
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:35,160
cognitive scientists will tell you in the sense of that the training data is human generated.

1937
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:43,720
The fine tuning is human lead. The pre-training is you know based on human taste and so on.

1938
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:49,520
So we haven't seen an LMC that come up with something new from scratch. But it's also,

1939
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:53,160
you know, like you could make the same humans do that. I was, I was just about to say that.

1940
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:57,760
You can make the same argument about humans. I mean, everything's a remix and remix. Yeah,

1941
01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:01,200
exactly. That's why I don't like copyright. Like it just doesn't exist. Yeah. It's not

1942
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:07,360
useful. Yeah. But no, everything's a remix. So my point on not needing bigger LMC. So it's

1943
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:11,920
not to say that we're not going to get better models and that that won't be helpful. So

1944
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:17,520
much is just, I think they already cross. Like a few barriers now that mean that we can

1945
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:21,120
build a lot of what we need. And I think it's the tooling that makes it better. So like

1946
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:26,480
yesterday we did the hand coding, those coding agents. Yeah. Yeah. As a workshop. And that

1947
01:17:26,480 --> 01:17:30,720
was quite cool to actually like literally build it. I was like, okay, that's pretty much how

1948
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:36,160
it had been cheweted that they were working. But when you build it, you understand it a bit better.

1949
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:41,600
Yeah. And you think really all you're doing is narrowing the scope of the question that you ask

1950
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:46,720
these things, interpreting their answer on their behalf in a systemized manner. And then all of

1951
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:51,360
a sudden your LLM goes from something you can talk to about code to something that can write

1952
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:55,520
code on your behalf. Yeah. And then iterate and get better and use all the tools that you could use

1953
01:17:55,520 --> 01:18:02,960
already. Yeah. I mean, what the things like one little follow. But the things are clearly missing

1954
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:08,720
is long-term memory through personal or through agency. I mean, we call them agents, but they

1955
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:13,840
they're still like agency in that sense. And I mean, that's why why a regular intern is still better

1956
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:22,640
at many things. I mean, there's a look for problems to solve. For example, and also like LLM's

1957
01:18:23,440 --> 01:18:28,160
are prone to make the same mistakes opened over again, no matter how much you tell them to make

1958
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:34,400
this step a week of LLM's baking mistakes. It's for a second. Yeah, no. Again, like having, I mean,

1959
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:40,880
I've been bipcoded a bunch. It's painful, the obvious that they are not reasoning in the same way.

1960
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:47,120
Like, again, like I agree with you, they can probably replace most of middle management and most

1961
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:53,600
interns. And so I'm not arguing against that, especially with like oversight and very little

1962
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:57,200
oversight, where it's just like if you have someone that actually looks at stuff a bit and course

1963
01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:03,040
corrects and so on, like all of this can work. But the cool thing about interns is that they

1964
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:11,680
actually learn. They actually actually learn and actually kind of, I think, what's still,

1965
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:20,880
there's a great phrase by my favorite guy, Rebecca. I'll have to mention it. I mention him every

1966
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:26,320
time. I was going to say, I'll be talking about that. But the issue with the machines currently

1967
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:33,520
is that they don't care about what the what the data they process. Like they do information processing,

1968
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:38,480
but they don't care about the information that they are processing. You really do. And an intern

1969
01:19:38,480 --> 01:19:44,160
also really does. Like every human really does. And it's related to meaning, because if the work

1970
01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:49,760
is not meaningful to you, you will stop doing it. And you'll be shitty at it. It's very hard to do

1971
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:57,920
something that is completely meaningless to you. And so that's also why you're, again, to use

1972
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:02,000
of a very key terms, like your salience landscapes changes completely based on your physiology. If you're

1973
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:07,440
super, super thirsty, every shop that sells water will be high-per salient to you. Like you need water

1974
01:20:07,440 --> 01:20:11,760
and you really care about water now. And our information processing works in the same way.

1975
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:16,160
Why are you working on the problems that you're working on? Because you care about them. And you

1976
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:22,080
want to solve them and so on. And now that I'm can't do that at all. And his argument is basically

1977
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:27,920
that for it to care, we need to embody it. And it needs to be able to die also. Like it needs to

1978
01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:33,040
be able to suffer in that. And that's kind of a big step up from where we are yet. That's why I'm

1979
01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:39,040
skeptical of. I guess for me, my point wasn't necessarily that we've got everything we need

1980
01:20:39,040 --> 01:20:44,560
for just like elements to replace humans. But for the cause of that you're speaking about the

1981
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:50,560
cost of everything. I think most of that stuff comes down to narrowing the scope of the question

1982
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:56,880
and asking way more questions much quicker. Because I suspect that is kind of what we do under the

1983
01:20:56,880 --> 01:21:02,320
hood. Is that we get a question instead of just answering it. We go, oh, what do I think about

1984
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:05,200
that? How does that involve my morals? I wonder what my wife would think about this. What would

1985
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:11,200
the kids say if I did that? I'm a bugger for just having these like massive conversations in my own

1986
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:16,560
head before I do anything. I think we could just have a lot more of that going on. It's just

1987
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:21,040
you need to burn a lot more money on compute. You need to narrow the scope. You need to ask the

1988
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:27,760
questions to narrow the scope. Yeah, I think you get there. But I don't think that means we get

1989
01:21:27,840 --> 01:21:32,480
general intelligence. I think the whole general intelligence being is a bit of a... I think we'll

1990
01:21:32,480 --> 01:21:39,840
already have done everything we needed to do to destroy the world before we get. That's been

1991
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:47,440
true for a long time. We don't need to terminate us out of the eye to end the world. I also

1992
01:21:47,440 --> 01:21:53,520
agree that the last thing that remains is the meaning. I think that's almost like the last job.

1993
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:58,240
If these things are so useful at creating stuff cheaply for you, well, what do you create?

1994
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:03,280
Yeah, so somebody needs to look out of the world and go, well, that could be better.

1995
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:12,240
Yeah, I'm a bit fast. The water shop there. Yeah, it's... I actually had a kind of a post-carsie

1996
01:22:12,240 --> 01:22:17,360
the argument a little while ago with someone that I... that shall be unnamed for now.

1997
01:22:17,440 --> 01:22:24,400
And I made the point of... I don't agree with a full post-carsie of your world for exactly

1998
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:30,080
four dead reasons. Let's say you live in a Star Trek universe and you have endless energy

1999
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:34,560
and replicators, which is basically what the Silicon Valley software people will tell you about

2000
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:39,840
the AI. You can build anything super cheaply. You can't build all the things basically.

2001
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:42,800
Yeah, it's a post-carsie in terms of code generation and so on.

2002
01:22:43,760 --> 01:22:52,160
And I think that's bullshit because you will still have to figure out what to replicate, for example,

2003
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:57,760
and it will take time. And it will also take... It will take time and attention.

2004
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:01,200
Yeah. For me, how many of us is that in a room at the moment? Just watching,

2005
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:06,240
code. Yeah, sure. Yeah, and... So they need wingman.

2006
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:14,160
And it's similar to video in this day and age is free. You can watch many lifetimes of YouTube

2007
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:18,960
videos. So the problem becomes what to watch because time is still limited and your attention is

2008
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:24,240
limited. Even if you would live forever, you still would have to prioritize in some way.

2009
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:30,960
It's like... Even if we would solve death, again, to go to the radical life extension

2010
01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:34,880
camp, you would still have to economize in terms of your time and attention.

2011
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:42,640
So I don't buy the post-carsity thing like one bit. You're still... I think it's just hard to

2012
01:23:42,640 --> 01:23:47,120
imagine what it is you'll care about if all of your current needs are taken care of. But

2013
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:52,160
history would tell us that we always seem to find something like, I mean, that's interesting,

2014
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:56,880
isn't it? Like, if you go back a couple hundred years, yeah, this would look insane.

2015
01:23:57,200 --> 01:24:00,960
What we are doing right now, all our needs are taken care of. If you ask those people.

2016
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:06,880
And we will tell them that's absolutely not true. And what's also fascinating is like we are

2017
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:12,960
as Western society at least the most miserable we have ever been spiritually, psychologically.

2018
01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:19,680
It's interesting, right? Like, you remove the need to, I don't know, go out and hunt for food and

2019
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:24,720
people just, you know, like, again, well, you know, people do have different sports and stuff.

2020
01:24:25,040 --> 01:24:28,320
I think there's a desire for struggle in a way. Yeah, you don't need it.

2021
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:34,400
So maybe that's how AI will destroy the world. Maybe it doesn't need to. We...

2022
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:39,120
It will be fine. We will remove all the struggle. Would you say you're generally an optimist?

2023
01:24:40,320 --> 01:24:44,160
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, why would you not be?

2024
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:50,400
You can choose evil one, right? So you can be optimistic and happy about where we're going.

2025
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:55,680
Where you'd be like really, like two people in the train. Yeah, exactly. So which one do you want to be like?

2026
01:24:55,680 --> 01:25:00,560
One guy is having fun all the time. And everyone's always miserable. But can you trick yourself into being

2027
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:05,200
that guy? To being an optimist? Yeah. Of course. You think so? You just say I'm an optimist.

2028
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:10,240
Because you just have those when people would say like, you think it works this way.

2029
01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:14,240
It's like if somebody, I think it literally does. When somebody stops having you feel today,

2030
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:17,200
you got off fantastic. Stop being depressed and just be awesome instead.

2031
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:25,760
Well, I mean, you said that. That's an old, how I met your mother, quote,

2032
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:30,000
if anyone still remembers this show. It's like, stop being sick. I didn't know that's where it was from.

2033
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:34,880
And stop being sick and just be awesome instead. That's how you get better very quickly.

2034
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:38,800
There you go. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think there's lots of reasons to be pessimistic.

2035
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:42,320
There's definitely a lot of stuff that needs to be solved.

2036
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:46,560
But we have better tools to solve it than we have ever had before.

2037
01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:56,560
I would say I'm an optimist too, but it's still very European.

2038
01:25:57,200 --> 01:26:06,960
Yeah, nice view isn't it? Yeah. No, I think it will be volatile the next 10 years.

2039
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:15,440
And not only because of the cost curve that you sketched out and all those kind of changes,

2040
01:26:15,440 --> 01:26:22,080
but just in general, it's already so confusing to try to make sense of the world.

2041
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:27,600
It's really hard. The breakdown of institutions and just kind of the way that the online

2042
01:26:27,600 --> 01:26:35,040
landscape works and the insane fragmentation, which is, you know, like absolutely everyone is

2043
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:42,000
playing. I spoke many times now about the echo chamber. I hand curated for myself so that I

2044
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:47,360
can just have a little bit of peace and quiet insanity. But the result, of course, is like I'm

2045
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:52,320
not part of the global discourse. I have no idea what regular people care about. They're talking

2046
01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:56,800
about it. It's like I'm I'm I'm such an outlier. I mean, it's useful to be part of a global

2047
01:26:56,800 --> 01:27:01,520
discourse though, right? I don't think that's going to be so nice with these tools that they are

2048
01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:06,400
going to pull us away from our screens. You know, like the more I use these things, the more I look

2049
01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:11,840
for ways to get away from the computer, even though what I'm doing is building software. Yeah. I mean,

2050
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:18,480
the Silicon Valley people, they do all of the they they forbid their kids to use any technology

2051
01:27:18,480 --> 01:27:22,320
basically because they know what they've done to poison it. But we don't have to use Poison

2052
01:27:22,320 --> 01:27:27,280
Scientology. We can just use either build our own. That's the nice thing all of a sudden, right?

2053
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:32,480
Yeah, I mean, I really like what you said about the re-localization and those kind of things.

2054
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:38,480
Because I think that's what you and it has been a recurring theme in the Bitcoin space,

2055
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:42,720
you know, like strong local communities kind of thing. Like shake your

2056
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:46,000
a farmer's hand and all those kind of things, which is absolutely happening. Like people are

2057
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:51,200
actually, you know, like either turning themselves into farmers or befriending farmers

2058
01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:56,640
and building out these local communities. And it's also funny because on the Bitcoin and

2059
01:27:56,640 --> 01:28:01,280
the Nostra side and so on, it's it is it is it is local and global at the same time in some sense.

2060
01:28:01,280 --> 01:28:06,080
It's like it's I mean, look at the people that are here that made the trip to the island and so on.

2061
01:28:06,080 --> 01:28:12,000
It is a it is a small local community in the sense that it's localized around Nostra and the

2062
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:17,040
technology we care about. But it's also it's like people come from all over the world, you know,

2063
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:21,600
like you're you being the prime example coming from halfway across the world. Well, I was going to

2064
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:27,360
try and be the furthest travel to a place at some point. Just have some amazing. You made it.

2065
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:34,240
How was it for you so far to participating in the summer and engineering cohort?

2066
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:38,640
It's been just kind of, did you know what you got yourself into?

2067
01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:45,280
Yeah, sort of. Sorry. I chatted with you just then. I sort of obviously listened to all the

2068
01:28:45,280 --> 01:28:48,640
podcasts from last time. What are you expected with? I thought there's going to be a lot of very

2069
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:56,240
interesting people here. And so you're in good ideas. Yes, it's awful. And I thought there's

2070
01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:59,040
going to be a good vibe. There's going to be really good ideas. There's going to be really

2071
01:28:59,040 --> 01:29:04,640
a band stuff off. I think a lot will come out of it. Yeah. And so I didn't come with like massive

2072
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:08,800
expectations. Yeah. The one thing. But I knew it would correct some problems with my own around.

2073
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:14,720
Just not shitting enough. Yeah, okay. I'm trying to come up with ideas and then never executing on

2074
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:18,000
them. And I thought, all right, well, this is going to force me through that. And I'm going to get

2075
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:22,720
just like a much better muscle memory for just like, okay, idea, shit, don't talk about it.

2076
01:29:22,720 --> 01:29:25,760
I mean, you did it really well. You already shipped two things basically.

2077
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:34,160
Exactly. So no more. Yeah. It's only week two. So so there's still there's still quite a bit of

2078
01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:38,480
time to go. Yeah. Well, that's it. It's some of the ideas. Yeah. I don't know if I can do this

2079
01:29:38,480 --> 01:29:46,240
in one first day. But it's usually surprising how well you can go. If you because again,

2080
01:29:46,240 --> 01:29:50,640
I think it's the getting the kernel of the idea right. That's the hard thing. Yeah.

2081
01:29:50,640 --> 01:29:56,080
If you manage to do that, you can usually vibe it into existence in a relatively short amount of time.

2082
01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:01,120
Like it's it's I know the devil is in the details and so on. But kind of, you know, aiming for

2083
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:05,520
working front. You can make a version that doesn't work exactly correctly. Yeah. But get

2084
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:09,840
the idea across. Yeah. And that's kind of what we're aiming for. Because there is a big difference

2085
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:13,760
of like talking about something is super important and discussing everything and kind of

2086
01:30:13,760 --> 01:30:19,520
landing on the kernel itself and so on. But actually having a somewhat working prototype of

2087
01:30:19,520 --> 01:30:23,520
something, it changes everything. Like I know we're experienced that changes everything. If you

2088
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:28,800
actually can see them play around with it and actually like the like the like the the casual

2089
01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:33,600
sniff 60 and so on. There was a great example because it actually it immediately worked kind of.

2090
01:30:33,600 --> 01:30:36,160
And you could immediately play around with it. It's just like,

2091
01:30:37,040 --> 01:30:40,720
immediately blows your mind basically. So I had this with Hazel when I was going here and it was

2092
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:45,440
I was talking to him about I'd made this thing previously called Noster MQ, which was just to use

2093
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:51,680
Noster like a message queue for remote RPC calls. And he's, it sounds a bit complicated. I don't

2094
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:54,960
have to do that. You know what, if it was just I said I built a demo where I could control like

2095
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:58,880
a MongoDB because I just didn't want I got sick of deploying it. But it's like that's

2096
01:30:58,960 --> 01:31:03,280
one of fucking the database on the internet. And I just used the one at home but I can't get that.

2097
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:07,040
Oh, maybe I can talk to it through Noster. I didn't even went, oh I'd use something like that

2098
01:31:07,040 --> 01:31:11,360
for settings or something. But maybe if it was a lot simpler it was just a key value store in

2099
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:16,400
Redis or something and that was like two days later how did it build? Yeah, fantastic. I could see

2100
01:31:16,400 --> 01:31:22,080
me using this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's how it starts. But that's how it starts. And that was

2101
01:31:22,080 --> 01:31:26,720
just me like I had a very complex idea and it became a little more left curse. Yeah, that's a good

2102
01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:32,000
that's a good that's there and it works and it's quite deployable. I think we could bring

2103
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:35,600
also as an infrastructure like that. Yeah. Yeah. It just means that you don't have to put

2104
01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:40,640
everything on Noster at that point. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I think also that's it was kind of a misguided

2105
01:31:40,640 --> 01:31:46,800
approach in the beginning. That's that's kind of like once there was a brief period of time where

2106
01:31:46,800 --> 01:31:52,400
people were uploading images and videos through relays like a you know, base 64 encoded in

2107
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:56,480
actual notes and so on. Yeah. And it's just like, oh come on, what are we doing now? That's like

2108
01:31:56,480 --> 01:32:00,400
this is not going to see over. Yeah, that's that's that's not a very smart idea. But you know,

2109
01:32:00,400 --> 01:32:05,920
we're figuring all it out as we go along and and again, like who who knows what it's good for and

2110
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:13,520
what what will come of it? I'm not I'm not as married to Noster as I am to Bitcoin. I think I think

2111
01:32:14,160 --> 01:32:24,160
you know, if if if the 15 years from now, the main use of Noster is cryptographic identity and

2112
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:28,320
just signing stuff and how the communication works, like I don't care so much about in some sense,

2113
01:32:28,320 --> 01:32:33,920
like it really is a massive win. It's still a massive win. That's my point. Like then I'm I'm

2114
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:40,400
very very happy. You know, like that's that would be fantastic. And as of now, I feel like

2115
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:46,880
enough smart people with the right motives are involved that I don't see Noster going away and I

2116
01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:51,920
like especially also the related things that popped up like I don't see cash you're going away

2117
01:32:51,920 --> 01:32:57,120
to the country. It's like the the things that are currently being worked on are so insanely

2118
01:32:57,120 --> 01:33:04,880
interesting and useful that that it's kind of just a I feel like most of the time it just needs

2119
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:09,920
a catalyst. And like the right technology is already there and then the catalyst comes along and

2120
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:13,840
it just proliferates massively. That's often though. I mean that was a video calling and

2121
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:18,560
stuff like that right. Yeah. Shut up all of a sudden. Yeah. Yeah, COVID was the catalyst for

2122
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:24,080
her. I say all of a sudden. No, no. We don't remember. Suddenly, why was that?

2123
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:30,480
Are you doing in terms of heat? I could really put my feed in the water. Yeah, okay. Yeah,

2124
01:33:30,480 --> 01:33:35,280
should we do that? Yeah. And I'm kind of I'm very close to heatstroke so I probably don't have too

2125
01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:39,760
many too many interesting things. You're always saying. You're always saying. You're not

2126
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:44,160
been living here long enough. Yeah, no, I know. I know. All right. Boy, should we call it that?

2127
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:49,600
Yeah, unless you have anything else to I don't know. I'm still going. That's good. I was very

2128
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:55,360
nervous. Very, very stupid. Don't don't be worried. We have backups of backups of backups today.

2129
01:33:56,480 --> 01:34:02,480
So yeah, no, I'm just I'm just very glad to have you and I'm very glad

2130
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:10,960
that you know, to me, the no solutions experiment is already a great success because you know,

2131
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:16,560
it already it already spawned other projects and that's always a good indication that

2132
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:22,160
something was not a complete waste of time. So you didn't mention that. So this was obviously

2133
01:34:22,800 --> 01:34:28,320
the whole point of good stuff came after listening to the office. Yeah, no solutions. And your

2134
01:34:28,320 --> 01:34:36,240
production quality is like immediately like 10 X 10 X as good as ours. Yeah, you have like

2135
01:34:36,240 --> 01:34:43,840
animations and and like what do you use to create these little animations of? I see you generate

2136
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:49,760
like a sprite map or whatever from usually very chat gbt. And then we've got like a little

2137
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:56,080
can verb that just tells you where to put it on the image and export that with a with a clean view.

2138
01:34:56,080 --> 01:35:00,800
So lots of post processing. That's what I mean. Not at all. Not at all. So that happens once.

2139
01:35:00,800 --> 01:35:04,560
I mean, usually it's just me and Andy talking. So it's already been done. And then we just run a

2140
01:35:04,560 --> 01:35:10,160
program that has that live. And then when we talk, I have that as the background on OBS.

2141
01:35:10,160 --> 01:35:15,120
All right. And so we stream like to basically just live record it with that as the video.

2142
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:20,160
I see. Okay. So there will be things together. Yeah. So there will be post processing today.

2143
01:35:20,160 --> 01:35:28,160
Okay. Yeah. You know, you're a new. If everything works, you can just right click

2144
01:35:28,160 --> 01:35:34,560
save this from ideally from my blossom. Okay. Well, let's do that without me having to touch anything.

2145
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:40,160
So that's that's that's going to be the dream. Yeah. So it's the first time my the whole pipeline will

2146
01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:45,920
be in full force. Well, let's see. Let's see our works. Yeah. Usually I do that. I hit a script

2147
01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:50,960
and say, so like that one bang. I mean, it makes the video makes the MP freeze, makes the show

2148
01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:55,520
notes and everything for me. And then I just need to upload them all. But I still upload like a

2149
01:35:55,520 --> 01:36:02,160
caveman at the moment. You have you ever shown old prompt? Yes. All right. My old examples of

2150
01:36:02,160 --> 01:36:06,400
stuff. I have one to know. Let's see how well he works. Yeah. It's probably going to shit

2151
01:36:06,400 --> 01:36:11,520
them out terribly. Like, fuck they talking about it. But I hope you enjoyed this. I really enjoyed

2152
01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:15,120
this. Yeah. No, it was very good. It was a nice walk. How was it for you walking around?

2153
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:18,720
It was good. But it's not different. It's different during the war. It is. It's in there.

2154
01:36:19,520 --> 01:36:22,960
Yeah. But I think we did well. Only a couple of long moors, a couple trucks, a couple of

2155
01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:26,880
a lot more. Some drilling. Yeah. We missed the drill. Yeah. So that was good. We're fine. Now,

2156
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:31,280
let's let's jump into the water maybe or something. Feet at least. All right. Let's leave it there.

2157
01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:36,080
All right. Thanks man. Thanks so much for doing this. All right. Let's see what we got. I'll say

2158
01:36:36,080 --> 01:36:41,200
that's the good stuff. That's quite playable. I mean, we could bring also as an infrastructure like

2159
01:36:41,200 --> 01:36:44,880
that. Yeah. Yeah. It just means you don't have to put everything on the store at that point.

2160
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:49,760
Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I think also that's it was kind of a misguided approach in the beginning.

2161
01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:56,400
That's that's kind of like once there was a brief period of time where people were uploading

2162
01:36:56,400 --> 01:37:01,600
images and videos through relays, like, you know, base 64 encoded in actual notes and so on.

2163
01:37:01,600 --> 01:37:04,960
Yeah. And it's just like, oh, come on. What are we doing now? That's like, this is not going

2164
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:09,120
to be over. Yeah. That's that's that's not a very smart idea. But, you know, we're figuring all

2165
01:37:09,120 --> 01:37:14,480
it out as as we go along. And again, like, who who knows what it's good for and what what will

2166
01:37:14,480 --> 01:37:22,640
come of it? I'm not I'm not as married to Noster as I am to Bitcoin. I think I think, you know,

2167
01:37:22,640 --> 01:37:32,480
if if if the 15 years from now, the main use of Noster is cryptographic identity and just

2168
01:37:32,480 --> 01:37:36,400
signing stuff and how the communication works. Like, I don't care so much about in some sense.

2169
01:37:36,400 --> 01:37:42,000
Like it really is a massive win. It's still a massive win. That's my point. Like, then I'm I'm

2170
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:48,480
very, very happy, you know, like, that's that would be fantastic. And as of now, I feel like

2171
01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:54,560
enough smart people with the right motives are involved that I don't see Noster going away.

2172
01:37:54,560 --> 01:37:59,280
And I like, especially also the related things that popped up. Like, I don't see cash

2173
01:37:59,280 --> 01:38:03,680
you're going away to the country. It's like the things that are currently being worked on are

2174
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:11,680
so insanely interesting and useful that the it's kind of just a I feel like most of the time

2175
01:38:12,400 --> 01:38:17,360
it just needs a catalyst. And like, the right technology is already there and then the catalyst

2176
01:38:17,360 --> 01:38:21,760
comes along and it just proliferates massively. That's awesome. I mean, that was a video calling

2177
01:38:21,760 --> 01:38:27,200
and stuff like that, right? Yeah. Shut up all of a sudden. Yeah. Yeah, COVID was the catalyst for her.

2178
01:38:27,200 --> 01:38:32,160
I say all of a sudden. I don't know. We don't remember. Suddenly cool. Why was that?

2179
01:38:33,920 --> 01:38:37,600
Are you doing in terms of heat? I could really put my feet in the water. Yeah,

2180
01:38:38,400 --> 01:38:42,880
yeah, should we do that? Yeah. And I'm kind of fine. I'm very close to heat stroke. So I probably

2181
01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:48,320
don't have too many too many interesting things to say anymore. You know, I've been living here

2182
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:53,920
long enough. Yeah, I know, I know. All right. Well, should we call it that? Yeah, unless you have

2183
01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:58,240
anything else to, I don't know. I don't know. We're still going. That's good. I was very nervous.

2184
01:38:58,240 --> 01:39:08,160
I love it. Don't be worried. We have backups of backups today. So yeah, no, I'm just I'm just

2185
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:16,320
very glad to have you and I'm very glad that you know, to me, the no solutions experiment is already

2186
01:39:16,320 --> 01:39:23,280
a great success because you know, it already it already spawned other projects and that's always

2187
01:39:23,280 --> 01:39:29,520
a good indication that something was not a complete waste of time. So you didn't mention that. So

2188
01:39:29,520 --> 01:39:34,720
this was obviously the whole point of good stuff came after listening to the first. Yeah, no

2189
01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:43,440
solutions. And your production quality is like immediately like 10 x 10 x as as good as ours. Yeah,

2190
01:39:43,440 --> 01:39:50,320
you have like animations and and like what do you use to create these little animations of

2191
01:39:50,560 --> 01:39:57,360
Oh, so you just generate like a sprite map or whatever from usually to chat gbt. And then we've got

2192
01:39:57,360 --> 01:40:02,480
like a little Canver that just tells you where to put it on the image and export that with a

2193
01:40:03,280 --> 01:40:08,320
with a clean view. So lots of post processing. That's when I'm not at all, not at all. So that happens

2194
01:40:08,320 --> 01:40:12,560
once. I mean, usually uses me and Andy told us that it's already been done. Okay. And then we just run

2195
01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:18,240
a program that has that live. And then when we talk, well, I have that as the background on OBS.

2196
01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:23,200
All right. And so we stream like to basically just live record it with that as the video.

2197
01:40:23,200 --> 01:40:28,320
I see. Okay. So there will be things together. Yeah. So there will be post processing today.

2198
01:40:28,320 --> 01:40:35,520
Okay. Yeah, you know, you're a new problem. We're walking around. If everything works, you can

2199
01:40:35,520 --> 01:40:40,800
just right click save this from ideally from my blossom serum. Okay. Well, let's do that. Without

2200
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:45,360
without me having to touch anything. So that's that's that's going to be the dream. Yeah. So it's

2201
01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:52,080
the first time my the whole pipeline will be in full force. Well, let's see. Let's see how it works.

2202
01:40:52,080 --> 01:40:57,440
Yeah. Usually I do that. I hit a script and say select that one bank. I mean, it makes the video,

2203
01:40:57,440 --> 01:41:01,680
it makes the MP3s, it makes the show notes and everything for me. And then I just need to upload

2204
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:06,960
them all. But I still upload like a caveman at the moment. You haven't you ever shown that with prompt?

2205
01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:12,960
Yes. All right. My old examples of stuff. I have one too now. Let's see how well it works.

2206
01:41:12,960 --> 01:41:18,320
Yeah. It's probably going to shit the wall terribly. I'm fucking talking about it. But I hope

2207
01:41:18,320 --> 01:41:21,840
you enjoyed this. I really enjoyed this. Yeah. Now it's very good. It was a nice walk. How was it for

2208
01:41:21,840 --> 01:41:26,240
you walking around? It was good. But it's different. It's different during the walk. It is different.

2209
01:41:26,240 --> 01:41:30,880
The same man. Yeah. But I think we did well. Only a couple of lawnmowers, a couple trucks.

2210
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:34,800
Couple of lawnmowers. I'm drilling. Yeah. We missed the drill. Yeah. So that was good. We're fine.

2211
01:41:34,800 --> 01:41:38,880
Now let's let's jump into the water maybe or something. Feet at least. All right. Let's leave it

2212
01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:44,160
all right. Thanks man. Thanks so much for doing this. All right. Let's see what we got. I'll say

2213
01:41:44,160 --> 01:41:45,440
that's the good stuff.