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I just, I won't look at the phone anymore. I'll trust it. I fully, I fully trust

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technology. Is that better? Maybe? That's great. I don't know, we'll see. I never know

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how to start these things. How are you doing, Pablo? Good morning. Good morning.

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Pretty good. Excited. Another episode of No Solutions. Well, it's not even an

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episode, right? It's a dialogue. Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I'm not sure. People

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will call it episodes anyway, but I see there's a dialogue. You know, that's the

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problem with naming. You're not in charge of naming. That's another thing. Like,

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people, you're not even in charge of your name. People will call you whatever.

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It's cool. School makes this very apparent. It doesn't matter what your name is. It's

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like, you'll get your own name. Anyway, I digress already. So, yeah. We go on a tangent

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before hitting any point whatsoever. I listened back to the first one and

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and it's actually, I was able to listen to it. That's okay. So, the sound quality

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was okay, but it's, I hope we will improve. But one thing that we didn't talk too much

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about was, like, what this experiment actually is. We talked a little bit about,

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you know, it kind of came out of sovereign engineering or some of the things we

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discussed during sovereign engineering. We want to kind of refine and have a more

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open, more public dialogue about it. And I think that's a large part of it. But it's also,

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the way I view it is, the whole problem space is way too big for one person to come up with a solution

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in some sense. So, the only thing we have is dialogue. I think to navigate this whole space,

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like, how should we build it and how should we build it right? And how do we think about

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Noster and SAPS and, you know, building something on a Bitcoin standard, building something,

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like, rebuilding the internet, reinventing the internet on a Bitcoin standard, so to speak.

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It's too big of a task for one person or even a couple of people. You need to

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muddle your way through and talk about it and have many, many dialogues about what might be

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not the correct solution. I don't think there is a correct solution, but what are the right trade-offs?

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How can you think about it? What is the, what would be the pro or cons of doing it this way

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as opposed to that way? And I think the way I see this, the way I see this, like, no solutions,

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conversations, dialogues, whatever, is I want to talk to the people that are closest to that,

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that have been closest to that for the longest time, and to kind of have a, almost like a time capsule,

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in some sense. How did we think about it in January 2025? Oh, now it's February. So how did we think

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about it? Time flies, man. And just to see where we're at, and maybe, maybe something useful comes

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out of it. And maybe it's also, my hope is that we will also get better at explaining to regular people,

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why is this exciting? Why is this a massive opportunity? And why, I think I mentioned it the

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last time as well. If you're just a regular JavaScript developer or whatever, you just learned how to

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code. Why should you take a look at this? And why is this exciting? Yeah, I think explaining these

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things is, is just so hard. And the closer you are, the harder it gets. Um, I was listening to,

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to, to Adam Curry on, uh, on Joe Rogan last night. Oh, he went again? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow.

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He was like six or seven times now already, I think. He's not regular. Yeah. Um, and at one point

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he started talking about Bitcoin and the way he was explaining Bitcoin, it, it wasn't too compelling.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, no, but I, I believe in Bitcoin. No,

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I don't believe on the other shit coins. And it, that puts them in regular, in the same footing,

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you know, it's a, it's a belief system. And, and it's not about, oh, I believe in this one and you

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believe on this other one. Yeah. Um, and I, I think it does, uh, a huge disservice when you

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explain things in the wrong way. Yeah. Um, which is something that I see a lot. Um, I saw Hussard

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wrote, uh, wrote, um, a long form made like a year ago, making that point, saying something like,

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uh, a bad explanation is worse, worse than no explanation, which I think is a very good point.

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Yeah, I think that's true. One of the things that you've mentioned a bunch of times in, uh,

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in, in cyber engineering, uh, I think we, it's a, it's a good point to, to touch on is the, the

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distributed cognition. Yeah. I think it's a very, very useful way of thinking. Yeah. You want to,

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you want to touch on that? Yeah. I, I, I mean, those are not my ideas. Um, uh, there's a lot of,

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you know, like people that are way smarter than me that point this out that all the hard problems,

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all the interesting problems are actually not solved by one person. They're all solved by

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distributed cognition, by, by like, you know, who runs an airline, for example,

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who, who, who steers a large cruise ship. It's not like one guy you need, you need like a hundred

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people to do these things and no single one person can tell you how it works or like who runs America

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or who runs a big country or who runs a big corporation and so on. So we put systems in place

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and we, we have various things that hopefully self-regulate and that's what in combination

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with humans runs the thing. And I think, um, just kind of, you know, who came up with the idea of

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X. It's a very hard X as a placeholder, not X as in like the new Twitter now. It's a very,

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he ruined, he ruined the X word.

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Yeah. Oh, what a shame. No, but it's a very, it's a very, um, hard question to answer because

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you don't actually have like true real original thoughts, so to speak, like everything is a remix

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of, of something else and so on and so forth. And so there is, um, I mean, the, the way I look at all

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that is that there is a reason why, for example, in the West, the logos is sacred and why in the US,

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the first amendment is the first amendment that it's about free speech and having the ability to

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actually speak freely about things and discuss things. And the, it's, it's the only way to figure

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out what you actually need to do. It's the only way to get a grasp on a complex thing that doesn't

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have a well-defined problem space. And I think all those things are the most interesting problems.

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All the most interesting problems don't have like a definite solution. Evolution is a great example.

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Yeah. Like, like the problem space of life itself. What is the perfect organism? There is no perfect

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organism. The question makes no sense. Exactly. The question makes no sense. And I, I view Nostar

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under the same light, for example, I view the stuff that we are doing under the same light. What is the

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perfect Nostar app? There is no perfect Nostar app. It's, it's first, first of all, it's even hard to

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even say what Nostar is in, in, in, like to box it in, in some sense. Yeah. And, and I think that's why

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you can't figure it out. Like you, as a single person, you can't figure it out. You don't, you don't

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even know. Like, even if you build a thing and you think you understand it from start to finish,

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if you, if you actually shoot it out into the wild, if you actually ship it, if you actually release it,

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the people will use it in surprising ways. That's always what happens. So you don't even understand

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what you built yourself. You know, like the people that, that created Viagra, for example,

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thought it was a heart medicine, you know, like it's, I always use this example because most people

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know it. And that's true for absolutely everything, you know, like it's true. It's true across the board,

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like pick your thing that was invented. The people will use it in very surprising ways. And, and, and so I, I,

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I think we're at a point now where, um, it's absolutely crucial to have these conversations

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and also involve kind of, how should I put it? Let me start, let me start somewhere else.

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I think we figured out a lot of things by building the first iteration of the internet.

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Hmm. And a lot of like rebel is a great example. Rebel knows a lot of things about social media

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and the history of social media and how things went and, and how all this built and how this came about.

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And he knows all the mistakes that were made along the way, basically.

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So it's important to really hear these people and not repeat those mistakes. I think, I think it's,

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it's, we, we actually have a chance of, you know, building the next iteration of the free and open

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internet. And I would like, it would be a missed opportunity if we repeat the mistakes of the past.

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Yeah. And I, I think one of the, the things, um, one of the benefits of having these conversations

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and especially about opening them up, uh, like we're doing now is that it, it is very easy

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to just default to no store. And like the stuff that we're working on, it technically, it looks

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a lot like the old world, um, like the peer to peer, like the strictly peer to peer technologies

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with a VHD, they architecturally, they look very different than a client server model.

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No store looks a lot like a client server model. It looks very, very similar. It's just changes.

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It's a very small change that is incredibly significant. Yeah. The servers are stupid

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and very much replaceable. And also you don't use one server. And the data, I think that's the main

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difference. And the data is there. Yes, exactly. The authenticity of the data is in the data. And

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that makes all the difference. Yeah. All the difference. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter if the,

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the data is coming from, uh, a server that you do not trust, the signature is there. That's all that matters.

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Yeah. Um, but from an architectural standpoint, it looks very similar. Yeah. It looks extremely,

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extremely similar. So it would be very easy to default. And it is something that we keep

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seeing. It is very easy to default to having the same answers that we had before. Yeah. The same

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answers of how do you grow? Trying the same thing because it worked in the past. Exactly. Exactly. And

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just trying to rebuild the same thing. Um, and I think opening up these conversations

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where we have free, because that it is the thing that we do not have the answers. Yeah. Yeah. We,

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we are not recording ourselves thinking, Oh, this is how you need to do it. Yeah. No, not at all.

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Uh, it, it is quite the opposite is we are opening up. Trying to figure it out. We're trying to figure it out.

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Yeah. Like the first slide or among the first two or three slides on the day one of server engineering

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is you are the guinea pig. Yeah. Yeah. Which is still true. Yeah. It is very much true. Yeah. Um,

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and we are, and we are too, and we are too a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. We're just trying to figure

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these things out and what this is, right? Yeah. Yeah. I, I think, I think the,

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the default architecture of how most of the things in the web work right now, they, over the last 20

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years or so, they impressed various thoughts into the minds of people and developers. And it's very,

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very, very hard to undo that. And it's actually lies. I mean, you talked about this a couple of

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times already, but it's very much worth pointing out. And it's one of the, one of the themes we,

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we had in, uh, in the courts as well. It's like, for example, there is no global, there is no global

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view of the whole thing. It's impossible. It's an impossible problem. If you want to have a global

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view, you need to actually build Bitcoin. You need to rebuild Bitcoin. You need proof of work,

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all the limitations, everything, everything else is a lie. Yeah. You know, like the, the,

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the global view count of a, of a YouTube video is a lie. It's a complete lie. You can't have the

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global view. It's, it's, it's always wrong. It's always outdated. This is how, because the speed of

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light and how information works and all of it, it's like, I don't want to get into the deal of why it's,

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the details of why it is a lie, but it's always a lie. The like count of your, of your, of your tweet,

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it's a lie and so on and so forth. And even within Bitcoin, Bitcoin, you, you need to reveal

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Bitcoin. Bitcoin only claims to have the truth of its own system. Oh, absolutely. And that's why

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inscribing shit on the blockchain is retarded, right? We already talked about the retardation of

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NFTs last time. Let's not repeat that. But, but, but Bitcoin doesn't claim to have a global view of

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the other stuff, of everything that is not within the system. You can't have that. But, but I think

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that's so, that's so, you just have to be okay with having an incomplete view of the thing. Yeah.

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You just have to be okay with things potentially being out of order or incomplete or what have you.

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That's just, that's just how the world works. And there is no way around it. If you, if you, and, and,

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and the reason why I think it's super important to, to, to talk about this and, and really like,

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we have to land on some things where you really drive this into people's heads, because it's like,

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if you, if you fix this, like, if you fix this problem, you reintroduce centralization,

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you have a central authority. And with that, with that fix, with that supposed fix of the problem,

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you reintroduce all the things that made all the stuff that we use right now terrible.

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There is no way around it. So you, you just have to be okay with there being no global. And that's just

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how it is. Yeah. I think that they are, there are things that we don't know. And there are things

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that we do know. And it's, it's provable, provably impossible to have a global view.

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Yeah. It just makes no sense. From, from a, and, um,

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In physics terms, it makes no sense. Yeah. And so you just have to be okay with that. And also it's,

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it's, uh, there, there, there, there's just, I don't know, there, there's so many problems that are

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like this. And, and I feel like we, you know, I don't know, maybe we should list them all out and

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kind of, maybe that would be helpful. But one, one issue is like the, the, the problem of naming

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came up so often, which is the same problem. It is the same problem, which relates to, um,

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there is no global database of, um, like handles of like usernames. If you have one, then again,

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it's like you, you, if you're, you're back at square one, where there is a central server, which

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tells the world, like, who is who it's a problem that DNS tries to solve. That's why DNS is like

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one of the archival skills of the internet, because it's like, it's a centralized solution. It's like,

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you have to map IP addresses to human readable and understandable names. And so there's a central

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registry and that's how things work. But as we know, a central registry, the issue with a central

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registry is whoever is in charge can remove the entry points, can remove the, the, whatever is in

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the register. And so if we actually care about long lived and I kind of hate the word censorship

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persistent because that's, it's also, it's, it's such bad marketing in some sense, if you want to have

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something that has a hundred percent uptime, which says the same thing, um, then you must not have the

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central register because the central register can get down, uh, can go down. And I think all of this

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stuff is important to, to, I don't hear this talked about too often. It's I, or let me rephrase that.

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A lot of people do talk about this stuff, but new people come in, they try to build something,

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they build something and they try to fix exactly these issues. And they try to give everyone in

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Noster like a username, for example, that works everywhere and so on. And, and, and so, okay,

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that shows me they haven't ever deeply thought about these issues and they don't understand the

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problem space, right? Because it's impossible. You're trying to do an impossible thing. So maybe don't

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spend your time on trying to fix the impossible problems, trying to fix the possible problems

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and be okay with some things being messy and remaining messy. Yeah. To me, one of the interesting

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aspects of, of just freedom tech in general is, I mean, as Matt would say, how much it humbles you,

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how much it, it forces you to be okay with constraints that are unremovable. There are constraints

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that cannot be withdrawn. Um, and it is a, it, I, I think it's, um, it's a very self-actualizing,

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um, moment where, when, when you accept the constraints and you accept moving forward without

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trying to be perfect, without trying to have the username, without trying to have perfect data,

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data guarantees, like, that's also something that keeps coming up, is the, the guarantee of the data.

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There are no guarantees. You cannot have them. Yeah, no, it's, yeah, I, and I feel like...

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By guarantee, I mean the availability of the data. Yeah, sure. No, but that's the best you can do.

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I mean, and I feel like we, we know this. Every, everyone who, whoever, like, you know,

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like, everyone who has been around a couple of years and worked with computer stuff for us,

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a computer scientist and so on, it's like, RAID chose this clearly, for example. RAID is a great

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example of like, okay, there's only these couple of trade-offs. If you have a RAID system, what do

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you want to achieve? You want to achieve that if one hard disk goes bad, not everything is fucked.

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And so there's these different kind of RAID levels and so on. And, and if you compare RAID to Bitcoin,

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for example, Bitcoin is like an extreme RAID system, where it's like, as long as one

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hard disk, so to speak, survives, everything is fine. For RAID is like RAID 5, for example,

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if like one goes bad, you're still fine. If two go bad, you're fucked again, you know?

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And, and so, so that's the trade-off that you have. There's like, how, how fault tolerant is

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the system? And I think that's, that's what, from an engineering perspective, that's what we should

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focus on. If you want to have something that's long lived and resilient, it has to be fault tolerant.

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Central servers are not fault tolerant. And we see this over and over again. I mean,

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we see it like, you know, everyone uses Wallet of Satoshi to receive steps. Wallet of Satoshi gets

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banned from the US. Okay. Everyone who is in the US has to use something else. It's not very fault

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tolerant, you know? We see it also, you know, like, uh, lots of people nowadays use Primal.

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And don't get me wrong. I love Primal. I think they're, they're doing a great job of, you know,

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getting, pushing NOSTA forward in terms of UX and just raising the bar higher and so on. But if Primal goes

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down, if the caching server goes down, if the wallet goes down, like it goes down for many,

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many, many, many, many people. And I think that's why that's, that's actually what, what NOSTA,

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from an architecture standpoint, is really, really right. If like, if one relay goes down,

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it doesn't matter. Like we'll nuke the Damus relay, I think like at least two times by now. And

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Damus is used by a lot of people and it's a big relay. That didn't matter at all. You didn't even feel it.

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It didn't matter at all. You can't even tell. Yeah. You can't tell that the thing happened.

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And, and so if you have a system that works like this, I think that's the right approach. And that's

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why, you know, like, I think there is a way of building it right, so to speak. I think Blossom

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would be another example. You know, we're not there yet because we don't have like, not every client

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has like automatically healing links and all those kinds of things. But in theory, it's, it's the same

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principle. Um, just like with NOSTA, if one relay goes down, it doesn't matter. If one Bitcoin node goes

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down, it doesn't matter, you know, and if one Blossom server goes down, it also doesn't, it shouldn't

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matter. It's like, you just grab it from somewhere else. But again, it's like a trade-off. There is

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no perfect solution because the answer can also be like, if we want to rebuild YouTube, for example,

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you can't host every single video on every single hard disk of the world. You know, that also doesn't

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make sense. So, so what is the right trade-off balance? What is the right amount of, of, of

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replication? What is the right amount of deduplication? And so on. And also if you overdo it, I mean,

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IPFS showed this clearly. They had other problems as well, but IPFS, they, they did deduplication to

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the max. And then it was impossible to retrieve files because it's just like one shard goes offline

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and you can't, you can't reassemble your file. And it was just way too complicated. But anyway,

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Fiat Jeff has a lot to say about IPFS.

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Fiat Jeff probably has no funds. I think you want to be at the systemic level,

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you want to be for a hundred percent fault tolerant at the edges is, is perfectly acceptable to not be

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fault tolerant. Oh, absolutely. But, but that also, that also leads us to, to the next issue of

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this doesn't come for free. So someone has to run the things and someone has to actually,

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you know, like host your image or also run the relay and all those kinds of things,

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or run the mint or run the Bitcoin notes and so on. And so, so it all kind of hangs together because you,

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you will never have the perfect solution of like, it's super easy to use. It's super fast.

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It's like super convenient. It's super fault tolerant and it's free and you don't have to think

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about anything and you don't have to do anything. It's not how the world works. It's also,

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again, no free lunch. Yeah. There literally is no free lunch. And you see this,

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I mean, that's true across all areas of life. Not everyone can have their private chauffeur and,

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you know, that goes on, that comes in the Rolls Royce and so on. Like most people will need to

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learn how to drive and use their own car and potentially fix their own car, all those kinds

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of things and so on. And yes, we can make steps towards that direction as was shown with Uber and

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bold and so on, make it easier, make it more convenient and so on. But it's still, it's like,

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you're living in the European Union, there's a new stupid law passed, Uber is illegal,

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we're back to square one. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know.

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Yeah. So, from the work that I've been doing with NIP-60 and NIP-61…

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It came out of conversations like this, by the way.

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100%. The number one issue that people raise is, oh wait, but the mints can rug you. Yeah. Yes,

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they can. That's the idea. That is the idea. You should never put a meaningful amount of money into

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the thing. It is not for your cold storage, but it comes from this sense of, I should have perfect

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guarantees of everything. It should be seamless UX and no one should be able to rug you. Yeah,

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perfectly secure, perfectly available, all those kind of things. And like, I think one of the,

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I, I mentioned, I, I did this, this, uh, this talk in, uh, in summer engineering about the, the,

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the summer in Legos. It's about having building blocks. Yeah. With different trade-offs, because it

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is all about the trade-offs. With different trade-offs that increase the design space that we have

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available. Yeah. The tools that we can. Yeah. So, I, I don't see, obviously, I don't see, uh,

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not Sagan and Ip60 as the VF. Yeah, yeah. I, I don't have most of my Bitcoin there, obviously. Yeah,

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yeah, yeah. But it is one more tool. Yeah. And then LSPs and opening your own channels is,

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it's also a tool, and liquid can be a tool, and site-chasing, no, but. Yeah.

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Yeah. Um, um, yeah, but I think the issue is we don't even understand the tools right, and most

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people, um, don't know about the tools at all, basically. I think that's the issue. I think in,

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in the real world, so to speak, we don't have this issue. Most people know what a hammer is,

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most people know what a sharp knife is, most people know what a saw is, and so on, and they know

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when to use what, you know? Like, most people don't try to eat their, I don't know, like soup with

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a chainsaw. It's like, that's, we understand the various tools and the various. There probably

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was someone. I'm sure someone tried. I'm sure someone tried. But, but still, like, we are at

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a point now where, like, we just built the tools, like, basically yesterday. Yeah, 100%. Absolutely.

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Again, I keep coming back to Blossom, just, uh, I like it a lot. Yeah, that's the main reason. But,

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it's also, um, so, a little over a year ago, it didn't exist at all, not even as an idea.

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And, um, now it's, it hosts this podcast. So, this podcast, now I call it a podcast.

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Oh, goddammit. See, that's how, that's how indoctrinated I am. So, just, just for the record,

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this will not be a, just another podcast. This thing will end, and it's like, we're gonna have

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a couple of conversations, record them, and that's gonna be it. But still, the fucking ep3 files,

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they're served on the Blossom server. So, if we are right about our assumptions, and things work out,

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as we hope they will, like, this will be around for a while, and, uh, it will be very hard to

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get rid of the mp3 files, potentially. And so, um, now I lost my train of thought. Where was I going?

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It's the waves. They're so loud. Enjoy, enjoy the breeze.

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We, we barely, we, we just made the tools. Oh, yeah, exactly. Like a year ago. So, a year ago,

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all of this stuff, most of this stuff didn't exist. Like, uh, NIP-60 is like, I don't know,

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six months old now or so. Yeah, maybe six months. And, and we're just figuring out, okay, when can we

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use this? How do we use this? And when does it make sense? Where does it fit? Yeah, exactly. And I

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really like the building block idea. I think, I think that's also, that's also, I think now is the

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right time to really open it up and talk about all this stuff. Because I really think we have

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almost all of the building blocks now. It's, I think, two years ago, three years ago, I wouldn't

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have been as bullish as I am now because there was a lot of stuff missing. Like, how do we do this?

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And what about privacy? What about DNS? All those kinds of things. And, and we, we have made so much

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progress in figuring out all these little things. Like, how do you, you know, like, um, how do you look

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up other people? How do you look up other relays? How do you, how do you do discovery and Osterite

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without relying too much on DNS, for example, and all those kinds of things. And we figured out a couple of

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things and, and I think, yeah, maybe, maybe that would be one outcome. Just be very clear about what

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kind of Lego pieces we have, so to speak. Yeah. I'm not sure. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's,

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uh, that's a useful. So for, for example, I, I think, um, NIP 89, which is the, the discovery NIP,

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uh, and I gave a talk in, um, in Tokyo about, uh, discoverability in Osterite doesn't suck.

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And I, I think NIP 89 is a, is a good example because in the past, I mean, in the present,

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we, we think about app discovery and by app discovery, I mean, capability discovery.

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Yeah. Uh, via going to some fucking officer and, and getting, and getting, uh, getting,

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seeing what's possible. And I, I think NIP 89 is like, uh, is still a very underexplored, um,

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building block that we have available, which is radically different because instead of going to

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this place where you, you find what can I do, you, you see the people doing the thing. It's,

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it's the same principle, right? Like the app speaks for itself, what it can do. Yes. Yes.

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Yes. It's just like the, the, the signed message speaks for itself.

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Very much. It's, it's very much the same principle. And so how do you, because it's also

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like in, in, in an Oster world, like how do you get to the sign Jason? It doesn't matter whether it

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comes from a central server or whether you got it on a USB stick or whatever, just like how,

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how do you get a new valid Bitcoin block? It doesn't matter. That data speaks for itself. So

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it, it, that's the only way how it can work so that it can ignore any central authority,

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any supposed central authority. And this is the same idea, right? Like you basically ask the app,

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tell in a self-sufficient manner, what you can do and what you can handle and how people discover you

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and, and get to know, get to get, get a hold of this information. It doesn't matter.

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Yeah. The, the people, the people interacting with the tool is the distribution of the tool.

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Yeah. And, and you, you're just, if I see that you are live streaming, for example,

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and, and I follow you and I see that you are doing the thing and I'm unsure what the thing is, like,

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like, why, what, what is GG? What's the context here? NIP89 is that building block that, that takes

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you from that point of utter confusion of what's going on to, oh, this is a live stream. I didn't

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even know that this was possible. Yeah. Um, and I'm using live stream as a placeholder because

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literally anything, all the things fit in that, in that, in that box. Yeah. And that is just one more

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building block. It is just very different, very new. It's a very, it's a very different idea. There is

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no equivalent on, on, on, on the legacy web, uh, that has that capability. Again, Natsack is another,

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Blossom is another, Ensight is another. There is so many of these tools that are just completely different.

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Um, or not completely different. Blossom is not completely different. Blossom solves a very known

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problem. How many times have we tried to solve? Oh, many times. So many times. Yeah. And this is such

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a stupid, simple, left side of the curve solution. Yeah. And it will also, it will not work for

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everything. Oh, no, no. It's like, torrents might be the better solution for, for some things, you know,

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like really large file stream or whatever. I don't know, but it's, it, it's not a one size fits all

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solution. There, there isn't any, right? Yeah, there isn't. Right. That's the point of the

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thing. There is no solution. Okay. We arrived. There's only, there's only, there's only trade-offs.

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Yeah. That's the whole point. No, but I, yeah, I really liked it. But I, I, I coming back to what you

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said about Adam Curry explaining the coin on Rogan and doing not the best job he could do. I think

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that's where we are at in the Nostra developer space right now. I feel like, um, I think everyone

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has their own reason to work on this stuff and be excited about, about it and so on. And there,

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there might be quite a bit of overlap in regards to what are these reasons, but I think we're not very

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good yet at explaining like, why, why should you take a look at this? I mean, just like with, with

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Bitcoin, we were, I think kind of terrible in some sense, um, trying to explain to the world why, why

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is this important and why should you take a look at it and so on. With Bitcoin, it's I think harder

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because money is like an icky subject. Yeah. Um, most people, you know, like either have too much or too

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little and it's always a taboo subject and, and people. And also the Bitcoin approach is so

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counterintuitive. If you, if you believe in Bitcoin the first time you heard it, you're

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either a massive genius or you need to arrive to the conclusion it's obviously a scam.

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Yeah, it's, um, I think we'll have an easier time now, but it's still, it's still kind of weird

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and some things are counterintuitive. And, and I think, I think the, the killer app of Nostra is you

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can't be rug pulled. I think that's the killer app. Yeah. I really think that's a killer app, both for

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the users and for the developers. I think everything else is kind of like a side use

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case in some sense. And, but I, I do agree with, with, um, um, what a lot of people are saying,

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like in the end we will be better than the centralized solutions, but you see this also,

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you see this again, coming back to Bitcoin.

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It is, it is, it is another Bitcoin podcast. It's, it's terrible. I hate myself right now.

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It is a podcast. Oh my God.

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Failing on all fronts. But, but fiat credit rails can never do what Bitcoin does. It's impossible.

335
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Yeah. So Bitcoin, give them enough time and innovation. Bitcoin has to be better than fiat credit rails.

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There is no other way. There is no other way. It's, it's, it's, it's the better thing. It's the

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better solution. It's the superior system. And there's many technical reasons why this is the case.

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And I, you know, I don't want to waste time to get into those. I think the same is true for Nostra.

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I think it's the superior solution. It really is. And I think the, the legacy centralized systems

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that we now have with, you know, like YouTube and X and Instagram and whatnot, and I don't know,

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TikTok and so on, they will never be able to do what Nostra will be able to do or what Nostra already

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is able to do. Like SAPs show this very clearly. Like you can only do like micropayments without a

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signup. You can only do on Nostra and with Bitcoin. There is no other way. Everything else,

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like that, that's already something that we can do way better than anyone else.

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And we'll have more and more and more of those things, but I don't think that's the killer feature.

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I think SAPs is an incredibly important feature. I think it's a novel thing. I think, again, I think

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we don't understand it right yet. I, I hope to talk about SAPs at length at one point, but, but, but not

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today. Another day. But the, the thing about being rug pull resistant is something,

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it actually solves a problem. It solves a problem for users and it solves a problem for developers.

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How many people have there been that built their whole developer career about the fucking Reddit API?

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They're all rug pulled now. Everything is garbage now. And the same goes for YouTube and every other

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API and all those kinds of things. It all goes away. Every API, even if you don't get cut off,

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the API just changes the interface and you're fucked again. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Absolutely. No, it's terrible. And, and so, so. I, I tell you, one of the, one of the moments where

355
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I said, all right, I, I need to go full on, on Noster was that company that we, uh, that I was working

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in, um, uh, the KYC issues and they were changing the, the, uh, provider for their KYC and their, uh,

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banking partners and whatnot. Everything's different. I, I, I had to start learning a new API from some

358
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:33,920
proprietary KYC thing and I was hating every single second of it. And I was comparing the work that

359
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:40,480
I was doing in Noster with learning this stupid fucking API, hating myself. It's like, no, this,

360
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:47,280
this cannot be it. There has to be a better way. There's got to be a better way. Yeah. Yeah.

361
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:53,200
No, it's awesome. It's just not fun. It's not fun. It sucks. It's, you know that you're wasting your

362
00:35:53,200 --> 00:36:00,960
time. Yeah. You're building that, you know, I had this friend, um, who works on, uh, civil engineering

363
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:09,440
and he was, he was working on, on designing dams. And he was telling me that the calculations that they

364
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:16,400
make, uh, have to build in the assumption that the dam must last for 500 years. Yeah. And I was

365
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:24,240
wondering what piece of code have, have I written that has withstood 10 years, right? How, how much

366
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:30,560
code, what's the percentage of code that has been written that have withstood one year? It's, it's,

367
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,600
it's almost all disposable, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's, it's kind of a sad state of

368
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:42,160
affairs, right? Yeah. It's, um, but I mean, with the dams, it's interesting because, because that's

369
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:47,040
the right way of, of looking at the problem. It's like, if, if a flood comes, it's a catastrophic

370
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:53,600
event and one time in a hundred years, a really big flood comes. So the whole dam has to be built

371
00:36:53,600 --> 00:37:00,800
to withstand this event. It's like, uh, uh, you know, once, once in a lifetime kind of catastrophic

372
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,800
flood or earthquake or what have you, and you have to take all that into account. And if you're doing

373
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:11,920
your thing properly, then it actually works. And we do very, very little of that, um, in the kind

374
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:18,000
of, you know, like thinking about the web infrastructure and the internet infrastructure

375
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:24,720
of, of, of those kinds of things or, or building out products or building out various systems that

376
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:31,520
the most things are completely disposable. And, and I, I'm old enough now that I really kind of,

377
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,880
you know, I'm a grumpy old man where it's just like, I saw all the things come and go. Can we kind

378
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,840
of stop doing that? Doing like the next MySpace and then it goes away and then we, we move on to

379
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,760
something else and then it goes away. And then, and, and it also, it iterates quicker and quicker

380
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,400
and quicker because things speed up. And then it, it, then it was this. And then it's like,

381
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,400
it was musically and musically was around for, I don't know, 10 months and then it became TikTok.

382
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,960
And now TikTok basically got banned or whatever. And people moved on to the other thing, Snapchat,

383
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,360
I forgot Snapchat and all those kinds of things. It's, it's also fine. You know, like the, the new

384
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,080
generation has to find their own thing. And it's like, you don't want to join Facebook because mom is on

385
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,640
Facebook and so on. It's all, it's all okay. It's, it's, I don't want to be too grumpy and too old.

386
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:18,640
Like I do, I think I do understand it to some extent, but still like, if it comes to infrastructure

387
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:24,160
stuff, you know, it's, that's why I like email so much. It's like email. I, um, yeah, I just,

388
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:30,800
I actually just mentioned this yesterday. It's like people thought ICQ was superior to email.

389
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,880
You know, email is still around, ICQ isn't. So email got something right. And so can we, can we,

390
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:42,880
can we do more of this? Yeah. I think when, when one of the, the incredible benefits that gets you

391
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:49,840
not quite there, but very close to there is what we discussed a few times when you decouple the

392
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,880
building of the, of the software and the running of the software, if you like built infrastructure,

393
00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:01,760
don't run it. The authors of RFC 822, they've, they've all moved on from SMTP. They're all retired.

394
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:07,360
Yeah. But they were not running the thing. Yeah. They, they weren't in charge of running the SMTP

395
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:12,720
servers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think what, what kind of, I mean, they were all

396
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:18,320
idealists as, as were the early internet people. Yeah. And I think Noster is full of idealists.

397
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:31,840
Yeah. And, and that's perfectly fine. But I think, I think we have an opportunity now to mix the best

398
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:37,760
of both worlds because I am a capitalist as well, you know, like it's contrary, contrary to popular

399
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,800
belief. I like Stallman and the new licenses, but I'm still not a communist, you know, like I'm not a

400
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:49,120
full blown commie. Sorry. So shocked. Sorry to disappoint. But, but I mean, there's a reason

401
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,160
why we were never, uh, able to build out the 402 error code payment required. It just, it didn't

402
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:59,840
work. It doesn't work on, on, on, on Fiat payment rails. It just, it doesn't work. It can not work.

403
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,920
They didn't understand this back then. I'm convinced that like, it's very hard to really understand this

404
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:10,160
and really internalize it that, that Fiat implies like Fiat credit, Fiat rails are credit rails and

405
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:15,840
credit requires KYC. And so you can't do all those things. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's something

406
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,520
that took me like years and years and years to figure out. And I feel like most people still

407
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:26,160
haven't figured this out in some sense. It's, it's, and so now we have now, now we actually have

408
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,560
the building block with, you know, like for example, e-cash. E-cash is a great example for that.

409
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:36,720
It's phenomenal. E-cash fixes 402. It absolutely does. In the header of your request, you can put some

410
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:41,360
e-cash and with that, the request is paid. You don't even have to go back and forth and do like

411
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,920
10 round trips. It's just like, here's five bucks. Give me the Apple, you know, it's like whatever.

412
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:53,360
And, and, and so I think we have the opportunity now to do what you just mentioned, actually think

413
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,160
deeply about the infrastructure we want to build, come up with something that anyone can run. So again,

414
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,760
like you want to build infrastructure. You don't want to run everything yourself. Then you're just like,

415
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,040
then you're like Apple or Google or what have you, you know, like that doesn't make any sense.

416
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:12,720
And, and it doesn't have to be all altruistic and all like, you know, like Richard Stallman type

417
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:20,320
people that don't believe in money. You can actually build services that scale, that are useful, and you

418
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:25,040
can make money if you run your service well. And I think that's how things should be. I think we

419
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,880
touched on it the last time as well. It's like, that's how restaurants are run. It's like, it's no

420
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,120
secret what's happening there. They provide a service, they do it well. They sell something that's

421
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,960
actually scarce. And if you do your job well, you can make money on a restaurant and you can do it

422
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,800
for a long time. And that's why you can't have multi-generational restaurants and inns and other

423
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,200
things that are actually fantastic businesses. And you can have fun while you're doing it.

424
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,360
And you don't have to take over the world and you don't have to, you know, compete with McDonald's

425
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,800
and capture the whole food market of the world. And like, it's like, all these ideas are, I don't know.

426
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,960
They don't run a compliance department. Restaurants don't have a compliance department, which is

427
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:05,840
the goal. Yeah. But I feel like in the, in the, in the web 2.0 era, at least, and we're still in this

428
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,080
era, I think at the, at the end of it, but, but it's still, it's always, the question is always,

429
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,680
how can you take over the world? How can you take on Google? How can you, you know, replace Facebook?

430
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,680
Yeah. Like you launch a video thing. How do you kill YouTube? Are you the YouTube killer?

431
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:26,240
You know, it's like all of that's bullshit. It's like, you don't have to, if you're, if I'm starting a

432
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:29,920
lemonade stand, I'm not going to be the Coca-Cola killer. You know what I mean?

433
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,880
It's like the, uh, like the, the concept of hyper Bitcoinization, you know, it's like, oh,

434
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:40,160
but when, when are you going to be able to sit in any coffee shop and, and pay, pay with Bitcoin?

435
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,160
And when is everything going to be basically, it doesn't have to, it doesn't have to.

436
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:49,440
It's true in my life. It's true in your life. It's true in my life. We don't need all the other

437
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:54,480
people to agree with us. My life is very much hyper Bitcoin-wise. It has been for a while.

438
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:59,440
So I feel like the whole discussion is moot. But, but I think, I think it, it stems from the same

439
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:05,920
problem of an all or nothing approach where when are, when is Nostra going to replace Facebook?

440
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:10,960
It doesn't have to. No, no, no, not at all. And in some sense it also shouldn't. It should, it should,

441
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:23,440
it's, yeah, I'm surprised still that I feel there's a lot of overlap between other communities

442
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:30,080
that have identified the problem. I think, I think they, they have identified the issue,

443
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,760
um, but they haven't necessarily landed on the right solution. Oh, a hundred percent.

444
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,760
Um, all the Mastodon people is a great example. They, they know the problem. Well,

445
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,360
the, the, the, the solution sucks. Sorry, Mastodon people. I mean, most of,

446
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,040
a lot of the Mastodon people went to Nostra now and so on, but, but even broader than that,

447
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,840
I think a lot of the, the, the self hosting people, they have identified the problem really well,

448
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:57,360
but I still think most of the solutions are kind of very limited in some sense. It's like you, you then,

449
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,920
okay. So, so either you use, I don't know, like Google drive or whatever,

450
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:08,080
or whatever centralized service, or you run absolutely everything yourself in your own server

451
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,720
rack in your kitchen. And if one time you're in, you're in a place where the power goes out and

452
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:17,520
your whole stuff is down for like a month or whatever, you know, like that's, you know what

453
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:23,600
I mean? I think we can do better than that. I really think we can. And again, Blossom is a great

454
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:29,760
example for that, where it's like, you, or, that's way better. That's way better. It's

455
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:36,800
better than a Bitcoin podcast, but the, the Nostra has the right, right architecture. It's like, I,

456
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:43,040
I want to host my own thing and it's kind of a fail safe if everything else goes down or whatever,

457
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:50,000
but I don't want to be personally responsible for all the infrastructure all the time. I want to pay

458
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,960
other people to do it for me. And I don't want those people to know what I'm doing. I don't

459
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,600
want those people to be able to shut me off in a meaningful way or control me in a meaningful way

460
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,560
and those kinds of things. And I think that's the right, those, those are the right parameters.

461
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:09,440
Like it's none of your business. What, what, what I do with, I don't know, like, you know,

462
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,560
what kind of lightning payment your node routes, for example, it's none of your business.

463
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,480
If you pass on an encrypted message that I send, it's none of your business what's in there.

464
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,560
It's like, I mean, that's what, how the postal office used to operate. At least I'm not sure

465
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:27,040
what they do now, but it's probably illegal in like six different ways. Yeah.

466
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:34,880
I don't know. I feel like an old man ranting, but I, no, but, but one of the things that I've seen

467
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:43,280
is, um, you know, the, the local first movement, uh, where it's like the idea is that applications should

468
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:50,080
be, um, should be performant, it should be expected to work offline. Yeah. It should,

469
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:55,600
they, they can, they can still use the internet, of course. Yeah. Um, but, but the application,

470
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,440
the state of the application should be on the application itself. And instead of, oh, you are

471
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:06,960
not connected to the internet. So you cannot edit your document, you know, nothing, your OS doesn't

472
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:13,680
boot because your internet is down. Um, and I, I, I listened to, to a bunch of, uh, podcasts from

473
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,080
the local first community, which is, I didn't even realize there is a local first community.

474
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,440
Oh, there is, they have, they, they have a conference. Oh, really?

475
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:31,440
For real. At home, by themselves. Disconnected from the internet. It's just three guys screaming

476
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:37,280
into the screen. You discuss all the things local first. Maybe you meet at the late point. Um,

477
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:43,280
but, but it's very interesting because they, they arrive to many of the same problems. But as you say,

478
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:50,080
they identify the right problem and they arrive to a completely wrong solution. One of them, um,

479
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:56,480
is working on identity. How do you solve identity? Local first. Not, not just local first,

480
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:03,920
but within the, the realm of you own your data because your data is stored locally and you can

481
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,160
always access it and no one can take it from you because it's literally sitting on your hard drive.

482
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:17,600
Um, how can you go around the different applications and do the login with Google or login with Facebook

483
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:25,680
and using your local identity. So using your local identity and it, it is the right, uh,

484
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,200
is it is the right, uh, problem to, it's the right question. It's the right question.

485
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:38,320
A hundred percent. The solution is, well, posky. Okay. Let's just use, let's just have,

486
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,280
so they arrive at the solution of, well, we need public private key cryptography,

487
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:51,040
so we'll go in this direction. Perfect. Awesome. Yes. But if posky is what's giving your, your identity,

488
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:56,880
your, your public key. Yeah. First, you cannot actually access the private key. Yeah. Uh,

489
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:03,440
you cannot take your, your private key, um, with you to a different, uh, to a different system. It's,

490
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,920
it's Apple, you know, so it's constrained to the Apple ecosystem or to the Google ecosystem or to

491
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:14,560
whatever. So you are still downstream from the Google. Yes. It's beautiful. You just put your touch,

492
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,640
your, your, your, your finger, it scans your touch ID and it's just, boom, it just works.

493
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:26,000
But what's the trade off? Like the trade off to me is unacceptable. Yeah. Um, where, where Apple can

494
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:32,960
just de-platform you from your local first software. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's all the right.

495
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:40,960
It's all the right, uh, questions, all the wrong answers. And, and I keep thinking these people,

496
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:47,440
they, they, they, they have a very, uh, like the, the local first community, as most communities,

497
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,440
they hate Bitcoin. Oh, everyone hates Bitcoin. That's fine. That's just, that's the default.

498
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:57,680
Yeah. Yeah. Oh man, it's so inefficient. Oh sure. Yeah. But, but, but, but give it, uh, within the,

499
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:07,200
um, the, it's so inefficient. Look how trivial the problem looks from the outside that the HTTP spec

500
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:13,040
people thought, oh, let's just put like a 402 error. We'll figure it out next week. We'll figure out

501
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:19,840
the payments next week. Yeah. It's, it's such a, it's, it looks like such a simple problem. Yeah.

502
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,920
And it's so hard. Yeah. It's so hard. It is a simple problem. It is a very simple problem.

503
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,160
But simple problems don't always have simple solutions. That's the issue. Yeah. It requires

504
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:35,120
building like this mining site and this whole infrastructure in the world that has a, a very

505
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:42,160
significant, uh, cost. Yeah. But it is the only way. It's the only way. And from the outside,

506
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:47,280
it might look like, oh, why don't you just use Pasky? It's an API call. It's just there. Yeah.

507
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:53,280
Why are you building all these weird apps and all this stuff? Like just use Pasky.

508
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:58,160
It's so simple. But I really liked the local first idea. I had no idea that. Oh, it's phenomenal.

509
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:03,520
Oh, no, no. It's great. But they also arrive at the same problems of, okay. And how do you sync the

510
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:07,840
data? Okay. But what if, what if you are on device A? What if you have like three different devices?

511
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,400
Yeah. Okay. Well, let's put a server. Oh, but what if the server goes down? It's an actually a really

512
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:17,200
hard problem. It is a hard problem. Yeah. And it's impossible to solve without conflicts.

513
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:22,720
Everyone who ever worked with Git knows this. It's like, it's, it's, you know, if you actually,

514
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,600
let's say you have three or four devices and you travel around and you forgot to switch your phone,

515
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:32,400
like back, like deactivate the flight mode again, and then you sit down on your computer,

516
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:37,760
I run into this problem all the time because I actually use systems like this and in my note

517
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,680
taking apps and so on. And I will have conflicts that I need to resolve. Oh, of course.

518
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,280
Because I updated it on the other machine and I updated another thing on the other machine. Both

519
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,440
of them were offline. What's the state? And then what's the state? There is no global state.

520
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:54,480
There is like, that can't be. Not even within your own. Not even within me. Like it doesn't work.

521
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:02,160
But, but that's, I think that's the right way. Like, um, Rebel tried to came up with a list of criteria

522
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:07,360
for like what makes a social network protocol open and so on. I think we need something like that for

523
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:13,040
Nostra stuff. And it's like, if that's one criteria, it has to work in flight mode. Yeah.

524
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:18,720
If it works, if it doesn't work in flight mode, if it doesn't work, if, if, if it does, I have a relay

525
00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:24,080
on my phone and I should be able to switch it to flight mode and everything just kind of still works.

526
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:29,200
And I say, just kinda, you know, like not absolutely everything can work, but still it has to,

527
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,240
a lot can work, a lot can work way more than you would think. Yeah.

528
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:37,120
A lot can work. And I think it's the right approach. I think it's, it's, it's a fantastic.

529
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:41,200
I really, I love the local first thing. So see, I learned something, man, that's fantastic.

530
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,680
It's already working. See, see what can happen in like a, in a conversation, in a dialogue.

531
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:51,120
You usually learn things and you figure stuff out along the way. So that's the idea. No,

532
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:59,280
but, but I, I, again, it's the local first, because I, I, in my head, I already tried to,

533
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,680
to kind of make this list. And I think, uh, uh, HODLBOT gave it a try as well, right?

534
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,840
Like doing a list of what makes a Nostarab and Nostarab and Nostarab. What is a Nostarab anyway?

535
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:15,120
Those kinds of things. And, and, and I, I mean, I think we obviously still suck at all those things,

536
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:20,080
but I hope that in a year from now we'll have something where we can actually take a quick

537
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:25,680
look at something and immediately go, yeah, that's, that's wrong. That's like, you know,

538
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:30,800
that's within this category of error. Yeah. And I think that would be super useful,

539
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:37,440
because again, I think like everyone who worked on Nostar so far, we figured out a couple of things.

540
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:42,720
And I think we have to get a little bit better at passing that on and explaining it to

541
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,360
just regular developers. I don't, I don't even care about the users that much, so to speak,

542
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:52,800
because it's like the users, this stuff will be figured out. The developer side is, I think,

543
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:58,720
harder to figure out because I don't want, I'm still worried that if we,

544
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:06,240
there's still a chance that Nostar kind of goes bad in some sense, I think.

545
00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:10,960
Yeah, I, I, I tend to agree. I think we're in better footing than we were.

546
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,040
Oh yeah. You were insanely stressed out a year ago.

547
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,040
Oh, yes. I very much was.

548
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,200
I agree. I agree. I think, I think we are.

549
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:18,000
Should we turn around?

550
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:23,840
Yeah, let's do, but we can also, we can, we can, we can go through the pain once more.

551
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:29,280
It's not an issue, but let's do, let's do one ring around the Rosie and then let's see where we're at.

552
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,080
That might, that it's probably very confusing for people as well.

553
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,600
Like we're sometimes talking about the Nostar things. We're mostly talking about Bitcoin,

554
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,280
but then we're also talking about how to best keep walking without running into things,

555
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:47,120
running into too many other people. But yeah, that's kind of my hope for the whole

556
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,880
project and having these conversations and so on, that hopefully we land on some, on some things

557
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:59,840
where we not only, not only figure out these criteria, but also refine the message.

558
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,640
Why, why is it important? Like, why should you care about it? Why do you want to build on it,

559
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:10,880
for example? And, and I, I think it has to be, it has to be wound up with the money and the money

560
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:16,800
making. Oh yeah. It's like, it's, it's because that's, it's such a novel thing as well that you

561
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:23,040
can, you can, you will receive sets. Like if you do your thing right, you will receive sets from the

562
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:27,520
get go. It's not going to be a lot, but still having the possibility of having money flowing in

563
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:36,160
and flowing through the system from second one, basically. I mean, we pushed out this in a, in a,

564
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,520
like the first conversation that we had and also even the teaser, the teaser made money.

565
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:44,560
It was like a hundred sets or something. I don't know, but, but it's not nothing,

566
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:50,320
you know, and we, we, we put very little effort into marketing or CK. Well, we didn't market like

567
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:56,720
at all. CK would say that's more than generational wealth. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. If you disagree,

568
00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:04,320
you're not bullish enough. But yeah, I don't know. I, I hope, I hope that we can figure this out

569
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,680
because I really think Nostra is one of the... I'm absolutely sure that, that we will.

570
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:13,120
I'm surprised that not more developers are flocking to it because I think, I think, I think it's one

571
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,680
of the most exciting things that's happening right now in the kind of internet development space. Yeah.

572
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,520
And most people are completely unaware. I think it's mostly because our own fault,

573
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:30,720
because everyone hates Bitcoiners and it's just... That is very likely the case. Also, I mean,

574
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:39,840
one of the things that keeps coming up is people join Nostra and they get 20 different people say,

575
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,560
I tried to stop you. I couldn't stop you. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Download this thing. And it's like,

576
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:50,000
okay, I was here for like a minute and now I have... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have like six hours worth,

577
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:55,280
you know, to watch this video and you need to sell these things. No, that's true. Yeah. But you

578
00:55:55,280 --> 00:56:00,560
know, Nostra fixes this, so... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They won't be able to really spend it except for,

579
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:06,880
you know, pass it on. You, you, you can, you can pay late lightning invoices. So you could go to the

580
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:11,440
mythical coffee shop and buy a coffee. Oh yeah, yeah. But again, regular users.

581
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:25,680
But that's the thing. So the reason I started working on the Nostra stuff is that I was looking

582
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:35,680
very hard at how Substack works, how they do onboarding. And within the onboarding flow of an

583
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:41,200
author trying to write something on Substack and make some money, the moment you say that you

584
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:49,920
want to get paid, they take you in a very beautiful design, they take you to this KYC process with

585
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:55,760
Stripe. So they hand you off to Stripe and Stripe is doing the KYC for them and then you have to link

586
00:56:55,760 --> 00:57:04,400
it and whatnot. The UX is as good as it can get when you bake in the assumption of KYC-ing the person.

587
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:10,160
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once you have to scan your face and take a picture of your proof of address and

588
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:16,400
your passport and whatnot. Yeah. You can't have like a really good UX because it fucking sucks.

589
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:27,120
Yeah. And it's still very, very raw. It's still very early stages. But the fact that you can go

590
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:34,640
and have a Substack equivalent or have a whatever equivalent and not have to go through that, you

591
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:41,840
can go to Shopster and sell shit without having to KYC you with with Stripe. That is a massive deal.

592
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,880
Oh, absolutely. That is a massive, massive deal. Absolutely.

593
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:55,520
And I think developers might not, yeah, developers might not understand the identity piece and why

594
00:57:55,520 --> 00:58:04,080
like all these parts are. So why is all this shit required? Why do we have to find a nonce on Bitcoin?

595
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:10,320
Yeah. Why is the mining? They won't have to understand those things.

596
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:14,800
Yeah, yeah. No, no, not at all. But the sales pitch of you can have your users

597
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:19,360
selling their shit immediately. Yeah. That is a very easy narrative to understand.

598
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:23,440
Yeah. No. And that's what I also mean. Like in the end, like give them enough improvements

599
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:27,600
and all those kinds of things. It will be better and easier. Just like Bitcoin is better and easier

600
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:33,600
than the legacy fiat banking system. Like try to do an international wire with any bank. It's like,

601
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:39,360
it's hell. It's you're in the fifth circle of hell. Like it doesn't matter how you cut it.

602
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:44,960
And also when it comes to the bigger platforms, um, if you do account creation, for example,

603
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:49,840
that's already so cumbersome. And not sure. It's a click. Yeah. It's one click and you have an

604
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:54,560
account. And, and if we do our verification, nothing, nothing. And you don't have to,

605
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,320
because on many things that I use, like, like they want to know everything about you. Like,

606
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:03,280
and I, I'm always going like, why, why do you need to know this? Why do you need my first name and my

607
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:08,080
middle name and my last name and my birth date and my, you know, like my blood type and my,

608
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,760
my, my country and my location and like all those kinds of things. And why, why, why? I mean,

609
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:16,720
I know why, but it's still, it's still very much stupid. It's like, it's, it's, it,

610
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:21,680
I just wanted to try out like a to do note making app. It's like, please don't, don't,

611
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:29,520
just, just let me try the thing. Just like, let me in. I promise. I'm not a terrorist. I promise.

612
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:36,640
I don't know. And so, so I was, I was getting, uh, a few months ago, I was getting KYC'd by this,

613
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:42,560
uh, company. They, and one of the questions that, that they asked me, I bailed. One of the questions

614
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:47,360
that they asked me is, how much money do you have? It's like, fuck you. I don't know.

615
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:55,120
How is that? Imagine, imagine if you download Sparrow and Craig says, okay, how much money do you have?

616
00:59:55,120 --> 01:00:00,080
I need to report it. I need to know. Otherwise you can't use my software. No,

617
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,600
I think that's what, that's where we can really shine. I think that's where, where Nostar can

618
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,120
really shine. Like literally everything can be one click. And I think this, it's still,

619
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:13,360
it's still very much underutilized because, and I, and I think because we are so wedded to the old way

620
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:17,440
of doing things, like every single Nostar client should have a one click onboarding thing where you're

621
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:22,560
just like create a new account to try it out. It's like, why not? It's like, the NSACs are free.

622
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:28,880
There's, there's like, there's infinity of them. Just let me, like, I don't even want to have to do

623
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:33,920
it myself. Just like, bam, do it. I don't care about losing it. Like, who cares? You know,

624
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,200
all those kinds of things. There's nothing in there. Why wouldn't I? Yeah, exactly.

625
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:43,520
To me, when, when I installed a Bitcoin, a Bitcoin wallet and it sells you, it forces you to verify

626
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:48,960
the token. There's literally zero money because I haven't been able to use the fucking app. Like,

627
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:53,280
why are you making, but again, trade-offs, trade-offs. It's like, it's so many people lost Bitcoin.

628
01:00:53,280 --> 01:01:00,560
So, so, okay, fine. But still, I, I, I, that's one of the things I, we, we, we haven't tried all these

629
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,720
things out enough. Like most people that are currently on Nostar, what, what, what would,

630
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:11,360
what would be your guess? How, how many percent of people using Nostar know that you can paste

631
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:17,280
an NPUP into pretty much any client and see the Nostar verse through the eyes of, I don't know,

632
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:22,400
you know, like Pablo or Jack or what have you. How many people know that you can do that?

633
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:31,760
I, I, I would think it's gotta be half. Wow. Oh man, you're, you're, you're, I would have said less

634
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:37,680
than one percent. Such a bubble, right? Less than one percent. Really? Yeah. No one knows this. Most

635
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:42,880
clients don't advertise this or show this or whatever. Show me a couple of profiles. When I

636
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:47,040
open the thing and I want to click on it and I want to see it, I want to use your NPUP to log in

637
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:54,080
or whatever, to just check it out. We, we, we, we don't do those kinds of things and it's all possible

638
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:58,560
because it was all impossible in the old system. Right. Yeah. It was completely impossible to do stuff

639
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:02,800
like that in the old system. And we're still so wedded to the old way of thinking at the old

640
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:08,800
system. And, and also in the old system, the old system has your private, your private data

641
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:15,600
unencrypted. Sure. So in the old system, log in with someone else's account. Would be very weird.

642
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:21,040
It, it, not only could it be very weird from, from an, from a developer perspective, you gotta be

643
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:27,040
fucking sure you're not leaking the DMs because you, you can. Yeah. You can. Yeah. In Nostar,

644
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:31,040
you don't have the private key, so you cannot decrypt. You can only see the public data.

645
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:34,160
The stuff that's public anyway, but it looks and feels as if you were doing the thing,

646
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:38,080
you can't interact, but you can, it feels like I'm looking over your shoulder basically. That's

647
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:44,640
what I can do in some sense. It's, but, but I, I don't know. I feel like we're in a new paradigm

648
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:51,120
and we haven't even done the new paradigm things yet enough. And I think it is because people don't

649
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,800
really understand it well enough yet in some sense. I don't know. It should be the default. Having,

650
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,480
having an NSEC for just like a day or something, it should be the default.

651
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:02,720
Yeah. Yeah. I think there's very few clients that, that implemented this. I think Amethyst

652
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:08,400
did as like replying as a NIM basically where you just, you spin up a new NPUB just for this reply.

653
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:13,280
That's fantastic. Yeah. Stuff like that is fantastic. Like we should, we should have way more of, of,

654
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:19,520
of these kinds of, you know, experimentations and, and really leaning into the new paradigm. But, but then,

655
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:24,960
first of all, we'll have to understand what is the new paradigm basically. And I think again,

656
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:32,000
like local first is part of this, like it's a new paradigm that your thing works, whether you're

657
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:37,680
online or not. It's a completely new paradigm. That's unheard of in like a client server architecture,

658
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:49,040
like old way of thinking. Yeah. In, in the, uh, based on the, the, the way the local first community

659
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:55,440
people speak, I, I wrote the documentation, uh, a local first documentation for NDK. And it's a guide

660
01:03:55,440 --> 01:04:01,680
on building local first apps within, within NDK because I, to me, like the idea of I click the,

661
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:07,040
whatever, a reaction or make a comment or something. And it just works. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't,

662
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:11,680
because the data is already signed. Yes. So I know it works. The device goes online and it will.

663
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:16,160
Yeah. The device goes online. So whether it published to the relays or it didn't yet,

664
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:22,480
it's kind of secondary. Yeah. So it should be reflected in the app immediately. Yeah, absolutely.

665
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:27,120
Absolutely. No, it's the right way of, of thinking about it. So let's end with an echo and

666
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:31,440
be done with it. And someone yelling in the tunnel. We'll see. We'll, we'll,

667
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:39,600
well, oh, that was just a, just a sound chest, sound, sound check by some random guy.

668
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,440
Yeah. I feel like my brain is fried again anyway, so I'll have to,

669
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:52,480
oh, I don't, I don't have anything insightful to say anymore. Not, not that I said a lot of useful

670
01:04:52,480 --> 01:05:00,960
things, but no, I really liked that. The, the, the combination of there being no global,

671
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:07,200
and building stuff in a way that it works in an offline mode, that it works local first,

672
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,240
that's already, you know, like, everyone should

673
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:18,640
know that this is how things work in another world, basically. And I feel like we're not there yet.

674
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:23,440
No, no, no, not at all. Most people still try to make a global view work,

675
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:28,720
and most people have never tested their own app in flight mode, for example.

676
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:34,640
Yeah. And the, and the, the idea of building this global view is one,

677
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:43,680
like I've seen many people, we, we've seen many, many, many people attempt that. And it's, it's such an,

678
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:51,360
an endless pursuit. Um, and the complete, the complexity just explodes. And it will never stop

679
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:57,040
exploding either. No, the, the, the deeper you dig into the problem, the worse it gets.

680
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:02,000
It's, I, that's, that's what I have to feeling with a lot of the, still in the,

681
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,360
the shit kind of world and the proof of stake people and so, and so on. They don't even know

682
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:10,400
how hard it is, how hard the problem is that they're trying to solve. They don't know. Yeah.

683
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,760
They try and they try and they try and all their attempts are misguided. And they don't even

684
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:18,880
understand how they don't even understand the impossibility of the problem that they're trying

685
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:24,080
to solve. And I've seen this so many times now where new people come in and they want to build

686
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:29,760
something and they want to make a global view happen. And, and I think that's something where

687
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:34,960
we just have to get better at explaining to people that you have to be okay with there being no global.

688
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:39,840
So let's, let's try to identify with more or narrow down the problem. Let's stop walking

689
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:47,360
before I completely lose my breath. Because we've seen many people just personally

690
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:54,000
working on this type of assurances and this type of views and not real realizing, not feeling,

691
01:06:54,000 --> 01:07:02,400
even though we've yelled so many times, literally yelled so many times. What, what do you think is the,

692
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:11,280
um, is the holdup? What, why, why are these people that are smart and capable? Why do you think

693
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:18,720
we are not getting through? I think it's incredibly hard and also painful to deprogram yourself.

694
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:23,680
And it's like, you, you, you grew up with this stuff and it always worked like this. And you always

695
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,960
had a server that told you, told you the truth and nothing but the truth and the whole truth.

696
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:31,840
And if you don't, if you don't have that, then you, it's very hard to accept it, that you don't have

697
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:38,160
that. I think, I think that's the, that's the main issue to pick another example, um, that we ran into

698
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:45,360
often. It's like the main way of, of making money, um, online basically, or building out such apps and

699
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:54,560
systems and so on is, um, to, um, either capture your users, which, or introduce yourself as a

700
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:58,560
middleman and capturing your users is just like, you are the middleman, you are the thing and so on.

701
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:04,720
And so people default to those kinds of things. Most developers that are new to NOS and, and, and

702
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:10,560
want to do something and, and potentially eventually also make money. They, they really try hard to capture

703
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:14,720
their users in some way. And because that's what they learned. That's what they know. That's what

704
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:20,880
everyone taught them up to now. And in, in sense of adding yourself as a middleman, it's the same

705
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:25,920
thing. Like they try to, to insert themselves. Like it only works if you use this client. It only works

706
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:30,400
if you do it like this. And then they take like a, whatever percentage cut and so on. And that's, that,

707
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:34,560
I think that's the old business model. I think there is a, there is another way of doing things

708
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:39,920
and a more honest way of doing things and things, a more long lived way of doing things. I think

709
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:44,880
RoboSats is, it's the first innovation that I saw in, in that sort of monetizing open source

710
01:08:45,440 --> 01:08:54,880
software in a, I think very honest way. It's where they, the coordinators can decide to give back

711
01:08:54,880 --> 01:09:02,880
parts of their profit to RoboSats open source development. And they advertise that and they advertise

712
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:07,200
that and it's part of their, um, like they have a reputation, they have various ratings and all

713
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:10,400
those kinds of things. They, they advertise the liquidity and all those kinds of things.

714
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:14,960
And, and that's part of that. And so I personally, I'm not going to choose a coordinator that has this

715
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:22,000
put to 0%. I want to support the whole system and the whole thing. And so, and I think most people

716
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:28,480
are not assholes actually. I think most people are a meaningful percentage of people will choose

717
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:32,640
to select someone that actually gives back to the whole system and gives back

718
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:37,200
to open source development makes the whole thing work and so on. And, and, and that's a,

719
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:42,560
that's a very new idea, I think. And you can do it in a way like you, you can do it in a way

720
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:45,920
so that it's automated and transparent and verifiable and all those kinds of things.

721
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:52,720
And we can do that now. We can, and I feel the whole, this whole space is very unexplored yet.

722
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:56,800
Most people haven't tried something like that. Most people are still stuck in the old paradigm,

723
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:00,640
which is like, I'm going to be the middleman and I'm going to facilitate the things I'm going to take

724
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:04,400
like a 4% cut or whatever. I don't know. I don't have a better answer.

725
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:10,960
To me, the, the, the question about the, the money and the becoming the, the central point

726
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:17,280
so you can take your cut, that, that is a much clearer reason why you want to be there.

727
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,080
Because there is a fulfilled motive. There is an incentive to be there

728
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:24,960
because you want to take your, you want to take the money. The, the global view people

729
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,480
that I have a harder. How should we call them? Globalists?

730
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:38,080
The Websters. Oh, you're a globalist. I understand. I don't need to talk to you anymore.

731
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:40,640
If you're a globalist, I'm not interested.

732
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:49,280
Yeah. The global, the globalist perspective, I, I have a harder time understanding because

733
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:57,840
you're not going to make money because you are trying to solve the data assurance of all the data

734
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:05,040
I'm not sure or naming. I mean, it, it, in their defense, it kind of stuff kind of feels like

735
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:10,400
there is a global truth, right? Like if you, your everyday experience and all those kinds of things

736
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:15,600
tells you that there is a global shared view of things. And there is a global truth. And there's

737
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:21,360
like one truth, like how many beans are in the jar? Like there is a, there's a definitive answer.

738
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:28,000
Hmm. And I don't know what happened in your house this morning. I cannot have a view of what happened

739
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:34,400
in Tokyo an hour ago. Yeah, sure. But I, I think people have a hard time wrapping their head around

740
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:41,440
the fact that, um, in, in a global system, which by default is a distributed system,

741
01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:45,520
like YouTube is a distributed system. Let's stick with YouTube because everyone kind of knows YouTube,

742
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:49,920
knows how it works, knows how the interface looks like. And so the like count is a complete lie.

743
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:55,040
And it has to be, and you can also tell if, if, if a YouTube video ever goes viral,

744
01:11:55,040 --> 01:12:00,960
the like count will stop at like 137 or something, because that's when they start to actually start

745
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:06,000
counting the likes and they have to reconcile between the different geographically distributed

746
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:11,920
servers that they have. And so there is not one server that has the number. It can't have it because

747
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:16,080
the YouTube video in Germany is going to be served from a German server. If someone else in Japan looks

748
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:19,680
at it, it's going to be a Japanese server and so on, and they have to reconcile. And while they are

749
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:24,480
reconciling and that's just speed of light physics stuff, like a million other people have seen the

750
01:12:24,480 --> 01:12:30,640
video again. So, so, so it's not off by a little, it's like if a video really goes viral, it's, it's

751
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:35,200
not off by a little, it's not off by two or three views. It's off by thousands and millions of views.

752
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:39,520
It's like, it's insane how, how hard this problem is also, you know, like what counts for a view and

753
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:44,880
all those kinds of things. And so, so, so I, I think people, most of the globalists just haven't

754
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:51,760
talked about or thought about, I love it already. They, they haven't thought about, uh, the problem

755
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:56,320
at the end deeply enough, I think they never thought about it. It's just like, oh, that's the like count.

756
01:12:56,320 --> 01:13:00,080
And again, the server says that's the like count. So that's like, they never considered

757
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:04,800
that this could be a lie. It has to be a lie. It has to be a lie. Basically, you know,

758
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:11,040
like what's the global state of the internet? And everyone knows like what Google has indexed is

759
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:15,200
not the global state of the internet. It's not, it's, it's a very small sliver of the internet.

760
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:20,240
You cannot have a global state of the internet. You can't, you literally can't. It's physically

761
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:26,480
impossible. And so, so I don't know. I think it comes from a place of

762
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,840
both ignorance and also trying to have a nice and easy solution.

763
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:39,600
because actually not having a global state, like, like real, the realization that global is a lie.

764
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:45,360
It's a hard realization. It makes, it's harder to build stuff that way. It's like you, you,

765
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:51,760
you have to just be okay with it. And, and I think it's hard to confront that and build stuff accordingly.

766
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:58,800
Yeah. I think it, it, it's hard to accept. It's a good, uh, it's a good explanation

767
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:06,800
because it forces you to just accept the discomfort of not having a perfect answer and that there can't be.

768
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:16,320
Yeah. Having a global would be very comforting and very simple and very easy. And that's it.

769
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:20,480
And that's the source of truth. And that's what I'm going to work with and so on. And so I think, I think,

770
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:26,240
yeah, I, I think that's it. I think most people would love to have it. And so they kind of

771
01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:30,800
force themselves to think that it exists in some way.

772
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:38,080
Yeah. I don't know, but we'll, we'll get there. Well, I mean, it also, not everyone has to

773
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:43,360
understand this stuff. I think, uh, critical percentage of people has to understand the

774
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:48,240
things. And if we, if we have a couple of hundred devs that are really good, that deeply understand

775
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:53,200
this stuff, I'm happy. I don't need, you know, my mom to understand this stuff. It's like, it's fine.

776
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:58,720
Yeah. I think the, uh, the eternal September of Noster is going to be people coming in and building,

777
01:14:59,440 --> 01:15:04,720
uh, an A, a rest API that gives you the, what building rest APIs to give you global feeds.

778
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:10,480
Yes. That's going to be our eternal September. Yeah. Let's prepare for it accordingly.

779
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:15,680
Any last words, anything else you want to touch on? I need to get out of the sun.

780
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:21,440
No, I'm good. All good. Yeah. All right. Then see you next week. See you next week.

781
01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:25,200
Bye.