With no peopling. Oh, okay. Let me see. Let's do it like this. All right, but let's not waste
any more time. This is just going to be a no solutions afternoon. This is on? Yeah, but it's
not plugged in yet. It's on. All right. Okay, change of plans. The brake was not a brake.
We wanted to do something else. We wanted to go sauna. But yeah, like it's just the people around
here are just, just, you know. Too much time. Yeah, it's, I think it's in their history, you know,
like ever since this one, one guy came to power, they were speaking weird and just had this weird
mustache. It went all downhill from there. From this point on. Was it John Barbados? No, different,
different guy, different guy. Shorter. He could, not as hard to pronounce the name.
Memorable name. Yeah, very memorable. He was really good marketing. Yeah, great marketing.
Great designs, beautiful logos. Oh man, like the, the, the, the suits he made, they're still killer.
The Hugo Boss was behind all that. Crazy. Great cars. Killer cars. Great, great, great Autobahnen that
he built, you know, great, great streets. He did, he did many, many things. Where are leaders like that?
today oh they're reappearing they're they're coming back they're coming back yeah yeah yeah
yeah some some many people i think would would like to would like to have a second merry-go-round
around the authoritarian regime kind of thing it hasn't really tried you know exactly exactly full
full real socialism hasn't hasn't been tried yet well anyway we're just gonna talk about um
your adventures some more so change of plans we're gonna grab a drink um at the thing at the box at
the box office you'll see i show you man box because we we actually made the mistake multiple
times i think right with just kind of completely dehydrating during a no solutions recording
so yeah let's not make this mistake again four times the same mistake yeah at least it's not
it's we we're behaving like llm agents you know it's just like never never learn never learn
you are totally right yeah you're totally right i mean give me a couple of billion dollars to
retrain myself and maybe i'll i'll not make the mistake again
all right phf sent me uh today this um this thing um i know it was like a very long report i only
read the first two lines they were very interesting um that apparently someone prompted them with um
with fix uh fix world poverty oh okay apparently they let the thing run for like i don't know how
like i have no idea what the setup was but uh apparently it made like a google doc and a react tab
nothing works like all the different asians were saying that they had conflicts that each one of the like
after like two days of working they realized that they were working in isolated uh workspaces one of
them was trying to debug but it couldn't log it into google
so so so world hunger is still not fixed oh man what a shame what a shame what a shame
but that would be interesting what the the because what they actually do is like take the
accumulated written knowledge of the world and and trying to make sense of it and how would the
accumulated knowledge of the world fix world hunger because it react up it's it's right
well that explains the state of the world i would have guessed like straight up communism basically
that's that would have been my guess but i think world hunger is actually basically fixed in some
sense like we there's more fat people than starving people and it has been like this for a very long time
yeah and i mean we are producing food like crazy like we have an overabundance of food
it's not amount of food it's distribution and stuff like that yeah and and corruption in the really poor places
and and so on and so on yeah in argentina there was this um this organization sending food from buenos aires to like very poor provinces um and sometimes they would put like you know inside of whatever like a like a like a box or something like that they would put like messages
yeah and they would pop up being sold the same food box being sold in buenos aires
oh okay okay repurposing
i see they they build a a system just like the the nfc tags the rfid tags but just handwritten those
just to figure out how where stuff circulates that's smart actually
speaking of argentina tell me about all your other projects
none of them are about argentina i only do like projects that might go somewhere
yeah no it's it's interesting like most of the stuff like basically all the stuff that i'm doing is as a way to test stuff for 10x
um like again i did all last and then the k swift and all as android and all as well
like all the old stuff that it serves in
the purpose of i need to build something to test the thing um so
so yeah i mean the the focus has been 100% on on on on this i also find it insanely interesting like it is so fascinating the type of problems
um so yeah integrated ndk swift and ndk kotlin with
with uh with uh with nostr db um
um then i've been doing a lot of work with uh with leopoldo lopez
yeah um it's it's it's an interesting client it's it's a client that it's sort of like
starting from the premise of instead of the premise of like rebuilding twitter or you know like this more global quote-unquote feed it's starting from the premise of you only care about your immediate surroundings yeah so when you are when you when you join you are it's kind of assumed that you're joining because someone invited you okay yeah um so i wrote um
oh you need a car to line yeah there's that's kyc at the entrance
oh no oh no i'm already i'm already i'm already locked out
all right i'll i'll need another one i'll need another identity let me see let's see
ah but that's bad then now we might we might dehydrate completely i have none
but uh maybe with uh oh there we go see oh well they just it just needed a while to copy the card
just to completely scan me it's just needed for the proofs of identity
yeah
all right what do you what do you want to have i really like this one that's some some sort of
so like mango no it's like it's almost like an iced tea but it's it's incredibly low on sugar
okay yeah i'll have one of those there's a wrangle of water as well if you want
some more no you'll be fine with this i'm fine with that yeah all right let's do it
you know having someone to blame if it's bad
you learned that from your agents
so how did the launch go of the of the of the client and all those kind of things it's it's
still an ongoing process all right all right and so the idea is kind of local um
basically you build your network by the the network of invites is that right yeah that's that's basically
so like i i i think trust is something that within bitcoin is kind of don't trust verify
but there is a lot of value in trust if you can trust oh sure uh like i i'm doing peer-to-peer trades
right now i told you yeah in a way that because i know the counterpart so well yeah i can pay him like
a couple of days later we don't need an escrow we don't need like a lot of all of these things right
um so what if you do the peer-to-peer trade with someone that you know how you are related to that
person if it's a neighbor or if you know someone that can vouch for that person because you can see
cryptographically linked this person was invited into into the relay by this other person yeah
um and yeah it has a bunch of interesting things i built um the use case is very it's very different
than what we think of nosterras like the use case is a lot about a local place for where people can
have like a like a public square but within one specific region and they might be doing citizen
journalism now those people they don't want to like dox their their real identity if they're publishing
stuff about corruption stuff like that if they are in those um yeah places right physically
but what if you can kind of out of band without leaving like any trace um be able to say hey i'm
going to be publishing with this pubkey i'm going to be publishing something and you can vouch for this
person and it's kind of like a source like a journalist says they don't say who the source is the
journalist is saying this is a credible source you don't need to know who that person is you just need
to trust that the journalist is not lying yeah yeah so you can do the same thing and within us we can do
all that out of band yeah within like with diff wraps and all the things right yeah in a way that leopoldo
or someone that is well known within that community says this is a credible person it's not publishing
bullshit i'm lending my credibility to this puppy yeah and that puppy can publish whatever they need to
yeah yeah um i haven't implemented that but i will they can do the publishing with the onion routing
like stuff that we built in in summer engineering where not even their ip address is leaked yeah yeah
um so there are no ties to their real identity in any kind of way yeah you can build a dedicated
publishing tool that takes care of all of that that ticket and all the tech yeah because you go from
the premise that these are non-technical people which is actually the case yeah it's actually the case
activists are non-technical people oh yeah yeah i know i mean i've i've on boarded a bunch and and
like almost almost everyone of course you know lost their first key
including
but i think that's also fine i think that's a that's a you know it's a very inexpensive lesson
to learn and and it's also something something you know that we're we're working on yeah hopefully
will be fixed in in in some way in the long run with again like i think i think um fatty did this
really well i think fatty had the right uh right ideas around that with kind of a community-based
backup and recovery approach those kind of things i think that that that's really nice so we did
not very xxx um what like a month ago or so um and we did a session just on this just on identity
migration and we run through the proposal that i wrote like two years ago and i did the implementation
and i had some refinement because one of the things is the the agora client comes with an ip60 wallet
and you can get subs there will be like substantial subs because there is some real funds coming yeah from
people that you know yeah um and
the money is in the key yeah yeah so so now that the key is not just your identity it's also money
yeah so and this is non-technical people so now what i built for for for agoda uh that we are now like
making a nip around it is when at some point you know like you get two enough followers there is enough
value on the private key to make it worth your while you can select people not that you trust
you select people that you can reach which is different and all you're doing is you symmetrically
encrypt with with like a passphrase a passphrase that you remember you know it doesn't have to be
like super secure it's just to protect yourself a little bit more yeah shamir's secret sharding the
private key and you send it as a follow event from an ephemeral key to the people that you say that you
not trust again someone that you can call on the phone yeah and you with enough quorum say three out of five
whatever it might be if you tell them okay send me the shards send me the shard send me the shard
uh which is new they don't need to know what a shard is yeah sure but it's click here it's all
it's directed away yeah and that's it and you get your key back you get your key back so that protects
you from i lost my key yeah and the um the identity migration stuff protects you from my key got stolen
yeah someone else has my key two very different things yeah we can solve with the same problem yeah
but you what you can't solve and i think or correct me if i'm wrong but one really hard problem is like
if you build stuff up over time like and and your key gets stolen like the rolling over old events
basically no no that's uh to me it's a problem not not worth solving not worth solving i i think i agree
you can do something you can do some stuff around it yeah it's you can republish with the new one you
can republish with the new one there's still all the events are going to be linked yeah tagging the
old the old no and it's also what i like about nostr is and to some degree also about bitcoin is that
that it just it works in practice even if all like not every problem is perfectly solved theoretically
and i think that's that's one of those yeah there you go there is no solutions to certain things
and yeah i i think i agree with you that that that that particular problem is probably not worth
solving but the key loss like onboarding and loss problem is definitely worth solving and it's very
kind of trivial solvable it is it should be yeah and again i think fatty did a really good job with with
that that was kind of the there were wallets before that that did also the social recovery
uh shamir secret sharing thing and that also worked as far as i know but the issue with that is always
that they had to bootstrap their own social network basically and that's where nostr shines where you
can just like you already have your contacts you already know the people and you just need to during the
setup process basically select like the five people or select the ten people or whatever that um are
actually reachable talk to me more about the reachable versus trust thing why is this distinction
important here well you you're not giving them your key you know me shamir you they don't really gain
any kind of special access you they they and the fact that they don't even know necessarily i mean they
could maybe they can guess it but they could they wouldn't necessarily know who the other counterparts
are of the split uh because it's all published with a different key and it's all published in a
yeah you just know you're a person you don't know the whole quorum so conspiring is you don't even
very hard you don't even know that you are a holder until someone asks you hey i need you will
know you will know after the fact okay okay um which is kind of cool yeah interesting okay yeah
yeah because it's you are p tagging them on a kind three on a follow all they see is a follow event
there is just this weird payload somewhere yeah on the event uh but if you see the event on on primal
or something you just see someone followed you yeah that's it yeah yeah i see okay yeah no that's
cool that's cool that's cool how what else was discussed in the nostra xxx um i i think the most
interesting the main points the the most interesting stuff was was the the identity i think it's like
something that is still very important to solve properly the next cohort will focus on identity
purely basically right let's see how it goes all the implementations will go there um what else um
what else is we discussed we discussed um like uh not paywalls but um like subscriptions and stuff like
that that's still um yet to be solved um it's one of my pet peeves as you know there's still so many
people in the in the bitcoin world and in the industry world that are trying to paywall content i'm just
gonna yap about that for a couple minutes because that's just i i still think it's so misguided and
it's just kind of i don't know look at the most
i don't know it's it's very frustrating to me because i just think it's the wrong
approach and if you look at um online creators
how they actually make money and and and how they how they monetize themselves
it's not with paywall content in the traditional sense
and i see that's my that's my my main criticism
for most people that would like to do that is still that most people think about paywalls with
you cannot see the blog post but if you pay 21 sets then you will be able to see the blog post
and that just never works because like someone will pay it and screenshot it and then send it around
for free yeah and and and the distinction is terribly important because what actually works is
i mean you see that on twitch and then on on on the big platforms and so on only fans is maybe a
great example as well where like i mean i'm i i still don't know why people pay for only fans but in
the best case it's kind of early access you know yeah it's it's actually it's actually like all this
stuff is you cannot box content in no matter how hard you try and so what you what you can monetize
is special special times and places where you have like a an elevated access level basically and i
think i think i think fear jeff is right about his kind of relay idea that kind of you
like it it it could be relay based in some sense where it's like this this this relay is like paid
only and it's it's very much like a you know a close chat room that you might have on discord or
what have you and those kind of things and it's the thing that doesn't scale right like you can copy content
endlessly for no cost exactly but you cannot copy a relationship yeah you can't copy a live chat that
has q a exactly you can copy a one-on-one or a 10 to one with the creator yeah anyway like quick rant
about that because i just i still see projects and i still see people trying to make paywalls like
traditional paywalls work and they i think they're just very misguided i i still think
yeah i i don't know like in some sense i mentioned twitch a lot in these kind of conversations yeah
there you go i'm gonna take a picture of this yeah let's go my kids are gonna be
insanely insanely jealous of it i'm gonna be like i saw this you you did it you did not
but you know me and i saw them so you one degree of separation one degree of separation you saw it by proxy
that's cute right yeah
i think they're like um um not too not too long ago we saw a we saw a deer like every day really
or different years kind of it's it's um because the the we had to drive the same route all the time
yeah and and just every single day there was a deer somewhere either on the street or in the field
nearby and so but yeah it's it's you know it's very very romantic very romantic place we are in a
romantic stroll kind of situation like shitting on paywalls romantically shitting on paywalls
no i think it's kind of interesting because i think there is a like our instinct is to build
with the new technology what has already been built before without this new technology i think we did the
same thing and it's kind of like the realization i've been having lately with with nostr is that we
started just rebuilding the alternative to twitter the alternative to like the to instagram that i yeah
and and i think it's the wrong framing like it i told this to million it's like it's like doing nostr
adoption in hard mode it's is you are picking the hardest battle because you're focusing on a problem of a
network effects an overserved market like the the the level of the the quality of the applications that
you're going against is insane like you'll never be able to match that um and there are new things
that can be built because of this technology well because of bitcoin because of nostr there are new
things that could not be built before and i find that so much more interesting but it's i think it's very
hard to figure out what the new things are let's go here by the way it's i i think we're in the process
of trying to figure it out i i i still think it's valuable to have a sub stack and medium and instagram
and twitter replacement and so on like just speaking purely self selfish selfishly oh what are you looking
at it oh it's just i came on that seat on the flight over actually i meant to send it to you no coincidences
21 is everywhere um but like for me nostr replaced twitter completely and i know i'm a very special
case i know you know like yeah for me it was only bitcoin twitter and like us like all the people
that are currently on us there we are a different market oh absolutely absolutely but to me to me it's kind
of like to me it's not clear what the new things are outside of the
frictionless value sending that the bitcoin and saps and lightning and e-cash and everything provides
which is kind of a little bit outside of nostr strong overlap but but but you know what i'm trying
to say like the the rest of it is a very hard sell the rest of it is kind of the um i talked about
this in the past the computer science professor that self-hosts his like static index html website
and has self-hosted it for the last 40 years from his like you know toaster that runs linux on it from
his closet you know that's the value proposition it's like you if you know how to use nostr right you
can't actually be self-sovereign in in this corner of the internet and the corner of the internet very
much feels like what the platforms brought us so so here's what what i've been thinking is that
like i think intuitively we think like our instinct compels us to think that the next thing
is a replica of the previous big thing like all the people that go for shit coins is what is the
next bitcoin and the next bitcoin is bitcoin right oh yeah and and i think that's the case like what
is the next facebook it's fucking facebook um like all this is not going to be the next instagram because
the next instagram is instagram what what i think is is is compelling and i i don't know if you follow
like how close you follow like this the stuff that goes on on substack but there is a lot of backlash
against substack for the simple reason and it's an unfixable problem which i think it's so interesting
it's just a function of size it is so big and it's it's always pareto distribution
there's always a few people making a fuckload of money yeah yeah everyone else everybody else starts
yeah and everybody everybody else is trying to get what is the latest marketing gimmick of what you can
do how much you have to post on notes on on on uh on substack and they're all playing for peanuts yeah
they're all working their asses off they went there with the assumption that it's a small market which is
why it worked at the beginning it worked not because of how the thing is structured or because the founders
have like really good intentions or whatnot like the intentions don't matter it's just the size is so
big and it's always going to be pareto because humans we think in this way like you see that someone
has a million followers and you're gonna pay more attention yeah i mean that's uh that's uh it seems like
that's how the the universe works i mean uh peterson had a long uh like rant on that many many years ago
it's it's the the matthew principle like to to you know it's in the bible already i don't know the verse
but it's like to those who have everything more will be given and to those who have nothing you know even
more will be taken those kind of things so it's it's similar like you can see the pareto distribution
everywhere like size of stars height of trees you know nutrition in in in like you know packs of
animals like the the the most successful will get everything basically like or like 80 of it
it seems to be just uh yeah it's just how things work yeah yeah it's just the universe structure and
but do you do you think nostril will have an easier time kind of
counteracting that in some sense like let me rephrase that it seems to me
that all the platforms are especially prone to that because you have like
one single lens on the whole graph so to speak and email for example doesn't have this issue that much
yeah right totally i would i would guess yeah yeah totally yeah the way i think about it is that
within a platform which is a database within a database you're putting all content
in the same database this way okay and you are you are waiting the value however way you define value
engagement whatever it might be um under that same lens and that's why we end up with it's all porn
it's all cats video it's all short videos it's all like the most engaging stuff because you are waiting
yeah you're optimizing for the wrong thing you're optimizing for attention and engagement you're
hi
you are you're optimizing for engagement it could be that you're optimizing for i don't know
haikus or whatever it might be like you could use whatever algorithm you want but it's one thing
it's like you're waiting the value of a picture with the value of a a poem or a song yeah or a tweet
or a post yeah um and the reason why i do think that nostr has a different promise
is that scaling nostr is hard like scaling a single relay so it will always fragment
it tends towards fragmentation yeah naturally yeah it naturally sends towards
you are not gonna have a billion people using one virtual relay like one single entity which is also
why many small markets is strictly superior to like one big centrally planned instance that distributes
goods exactly right it's a scaling issue as well exactly and i think the promise of nostr like what's
interesting about it is that you as the user with your outbox and with your your key and whatnot
you get to decide what the internet is for you at any point in time and the system can react
to how your preferences evolve how your consumption of content and your interactions how do they evolve
and you can have completely different weighting of what is valuable to you on different relays
so to me it's like a much more organic and natural way
of approaching the problem of what is worth my admission yeah yeah to me to me it's a different
paradigm in the sense and i i made this comparison just recently um
can you believe it i appeared in a in another podcast german speaking one what oh my god the spell has been broken yeah
the one i uh launched myself yeah thanks i was i was asking you to pronounce it
it must sound how did i do it it must sound very similar to berbeki in your years
same same word basically i know 20 and berbeki exactly the same thing but i i feel like the
to me it's very interesting that all the i think you made a great point before where all the content types
compete with each other basically for attention because that's the only thing that you have online
and that's why all the platforms turn themselves into the tick tock they have to look at self stock
oh i know they have to tick tock like it's so far like yeah for them to short videos it's like
so far it's like you cannot go any further than that yeah yeah it's really bad it's really bad
and the the comparison i made was actually to kind of um fast food and to like if you don't think
about what you eat and if it's just about consuming calories and if it's just about kind of distracting
yourself eating as a form of distraction then fast food is really appealing yeah totally and i think
what the platform the platforms like again i think it comes back to monetization in a large
to a large degree that's why some platforms try to push people into monthly subscriptions and so on
because it is a different way of monetizing and i think it would be strictly better from a quality
perspective um but if you don't do that you have to cater towards attention yeah and the best way to do it
is by producing basically like lucid dreams i think what we're building is like lucid dreaming platforms
where like that's what tick tock short form videos are it's like 10 second snippets
of whatever you want to dream about yeah and it's maximally engaging so to speak or maximally again it's
a virveci virvecian term hyper salient like you whatever appeals to you the most that's what will
be shown to you yeah and if the algorithm doesn't know much about you it will send something your way
that most people in your age bracket with your tastes and your gender and your browsing habits find
appealing and then like after like two minutes of yes no scrolling you're locked in
and it will it it's literally like a lucid dream and and it will be like that more and more as you
know more ai generated stuff they will generate stuff on the fly for you oh 100 that's what they
want to do no doubt i mean spokespeople already told us that much that's that's that's where they
want to go i mean imagine if you are no longer constrained on what is the most addicting for this
person for this moment to content that actually exists yeah you can just make it on the fly oh sure i mean
porn already does that as far as i know that's like the the most i i think i think not even not
even in the porn department but also in the like soft porn right like trending towards porn uh instagram
kind of content it's i highly doubt that like the time has long passed where this stuff is real it used
to be filters it used to be like you know photoshop and steroids and i'm pretty sure most of the stuff
right now that most people consume is just straight up generated
who's gonna give jobs to the porn stars now
there will always be a market it's just like homegrown
homegrown porn you know when when upstar came around for musicians was actually you actually have to go
live and perform so for porn stars you know there might be some same idea you think so but i think
the parito stuff points to an interesting reality and i think we talked about this in the past but it's
worth repeating there is a large chunk of noser that is just um interested in and dealing with music
yeah and that part really seems to work and there's of course like lots of crossover to the podcasting 2.0
decentralized music kind of movement and so on but i think for those kind of segments it can really work
like where um you you you have your kind of you fill your niche in some sense you have a little bit of a
following and you make it really frictionless to build a community and to send value around basically
i think that's kind of the main value proposition without without um without needing to self-censor i
think that's kind of the main issue that lots of the platforms have where it's just like you have to
always be wary of being deplatformed and it's like can i say that and like most of the youtube content
that i watch still like every sentence is like has a little bleep in it somewhere because the people
they have to self like they have to censor it otherwise the video will be demonetized right
and like they like to swear and they will say you know and whatever and and talk
about political topics and they have to like they were for example one guy was going through the
epstein files and every every time he said you know like the rapist or even sex offender or something
like that he had to bleep the words that's the state of youtube right yeah yeah that's really bad right
and i think i think that's again i i think i think the internet needs a corner where
you don't have to worry about this stuff too much
the from from what i've seen and the conversations that i've had the the people are trying to make a
living out of their content which is a such a insulting word it's content
fuck that jesus we're producing content right now man this is content
the their their issue is like top of mind is the distribution you know it's it's all about and that's
that's kind of interesting because a lot of people that i that i've spoken with they arrive to the same
conclusion that you mentioned briefly a while ago about paywalls and whatnot is if your content is
behind a paywall no one will see it no one sees it yeah so no one reads you yeah so you don't want to
artificially restrict the distribution of your content and that's what the twitch people figured out for
example you know like it's everything is everywhere at all times and everything is re-shared and re-clipped
and like re-uploaded to youtube and other things and so on and that's how how the content kind of
distributes itself naturally and it's still like people still pay for it but they pay for something
else right i would argue similar to only fans and other things you know where it's like you
you actually you you i'm gonna stick with twitch otherwise it will just get out of hand but if you
donate to someone on twitch like if you subscribe to someone on twitch you're not paying you're not
buying the mp4 file you're not buying the video stream file you know what i mean you always had access
to that you're buying something else and that's something that's something that i think most people in the
bitcoin industry world and still don't get like at all yeah anyway i'm still ranting
but yeah i think it a lot of it comes down from the fact that what everybody in and i'm going to
stick to substack because that's the one that i know the best what everybody is trying to replicate
on substack is the early adopters that have that are making a killing on substack of
which there are like 20 yeah out of millions of writers yeah um and they're trying to replicate
this model where you have hundreds of thousands of subscribers you have a insane income an insane
uh mrr yeah and it's just by sheer numbers not everybody can have that a very very very small few can have
that yeah um so they are all fighting for kind of like a dream it's it's it's um a pipe dream yeah but
it's the same everywhere a very a very small percentage of all musicians make all the money a very small
percentage of all movie stars make all the money a very small percentage of all movies make all the money
you know and so on and so forth it's like it's the same everywhere take writers and so on it's like but
but to me it's interesting the the fact that they are being sold that that dream of oh you can make
as much money as this writer like basically that's what the when they are advertising that so and so is
making this amount is you could also make this amount right like if you apply yourself you can make that
that same same with only fans they're being sold a lie they're being sold a lie into a trap they're
they're prostituting themselves for nothing because you're playing in a market that has that is has
already been it's a winner takes most market where there is already a winner yeah and you're gonna bring
all your effort and all your whatnot all your sweat and tears yeah into a place where basically you cannot
win yeah basically and that's actually a good point because i think that's one thing that sub stack
actually did right whereas the the main distribution channel at least in the beginning that was the
case i'm not sure how it is now was email right i think what nostr allows you to do is to to be yourself
find your niche just do the one thing like no one can be better at being you than you you know yeah
and just kind of be yourself without risk of being deplatformed and you can actually build your
digital empire for lack of a better word you know and and have people that actually follow you and
are interested in the stuff you have to put out and you can form real connection and you can have real
value flowing again without intermediaries and i think that's the value proposition it just takes a
lot of time and it takes a lot of effort to build it out and and all those kind of things but you can
actually do it in a way without ever getting rug pulled and that to me is the value proposition which
of course coincidentally to me is also the value proposition of bitcoin right no rug pulls yeah like
if you're getting rock pulled you rock pulled yourself which is definitely possible which happens
no no no free lunch no free lunch that's why a very long time ago i wrote about like how in in the
bitcoin world like responsibility is like programmed in like if you take bitcoin seriously and you you
rearrange your life to live on the bitcoin standard for example you have to be responsible you like at least
for your keys for your keys for example and those kind of things and in in a large like following up
to that also you have to be you have to take your privacy more seriously you have to take your
digital hygiene more seriously and so on and all of that is true for nostra as well like if you
actually want to go down that route and build out
i think that's why the overlap to the regenerative farmer community is so big because if you want to
take charge of your life you actually have to go buy a farm
buy a lot of plants you know grow your own food have you you know all those kind of things but i'm only
half joking like i think i really think that that's why the overlap is so big because the same is true
on like with your your your digital estate you know like you you will actually have to
run your own relay you have to take care of your own key material you have to run your own node you
have to take care of all those kind of things you know like you actually have to on the bitcoin side
you know like you have to stamp your words in in steel and like make sure that they're held somewhere
safely exactly and then and so on and so on and you'll have to upgrade over time all those kind of
things you know and and i mean just looking at myself at my own like nostril infrastructure
like i run multiple relays i i have multiple blossom servers and and like i have to take care of all
this stuff just like you would have to you know like plow the field and milk the cows in the morning you
know it's just like it's work but it's also rewarding in the sense that you at least know that's
yours yeah and you're not you know just renting the youtube channel and i mean it always breaks my
heart every time i see someone who has built a life around a certain platform for the last 10 15 years
whatever and then by just some whatever sometimes it's just like straight up bureaucratic mistake or
whatever they just get nuked off the planet and everything's gone like their whole library everything
the whole output that they produce over the last 15 years completely gone no backups
it's insane it's completely insane if only someone would have made t-shirts and stickers and so on that
says the cloud is just someone else's computer if only well anyway anyway let's see let's see how it
goes i mean again but again there is there's no free lunch in that sense like you it actually is work
and it actually requires a certain amount of thought and care and responsibility to take care of your
digital infrastructure and so on so i doubt that i'm only mentioning that because i doubt that
the masses will ever do that maybe the markets will solve that and maybe you know like people enough
people will be willing to pay for it in a sense and and i think it will get easier and easier to self-host and
so on i think it will get easier and easier and and i think the i'm i'm a forever optimist i i think the
the level of complacency that everybody has um like all these assumptions that we have on how people behave
are coming down from an observation of the the current world of the of the fast food
and we haven't even identified like that digitally we are all being served fast food like people like
we know yeah most people most people haven't realized like it is it is the lack of awareness
of where we're at it is and i think that complacency that we have oh it's in the cloud like all these
things yeah in in one hand the tech will get better it will be easier to do all these things
distribution will also come which you know brings like okay i'm doing all this work for a reach of like
maybe 500 people will see what i'm writing like i think all these lines will converge in like we'll go
in the right direction together um but i also think that people will will care more when they like
you know like also 500 is a very respectable number you can imagine you can imagine imagine going up to a
podium and there's like 500 people actually listening to you yeah that's a lot of people you know what i
mean i i i also think the the whole like everything is completely out of whack right now because if
you're not making like 10 million views you're you're a loser you know totally totally that's kind of
of which 99 are bots yeah of course but but it's everything so out of whack where we're just
it's i hope that we can return to a smaller more sane a world and i hope that nostr can help with that
because you actually um i mean there's lots lots has been written about those kind of things in the past
and there was this one book i there was actually a very well-known author but i i'm drawing a blank now
but the one thousand yeah one thousand true fans kelly ah there you go kevin kelly right and
there is a lot of truth in that that that's kind of that's the that's the right size you know what
i mean you don't need 20 million true fans like that's that's completely that's that's like you're
missing the mark by so much but but but i think the the problem is that because all content going back
all content is being compared and weight under the same scale yeah you you cannot have a thousand
true fans like no no you don't have 20 million or you have nothing on the bright side that's what
makes all and in the long run will make all the platforms kind of vanish and crumble like because
they it's it it turns itself into a unified slop machine yeah you know it's it's literally we're
moving from the slot machines of social media to the slot machines of ai and ai generated content
and everyone will have to produce the same slop just like all the fast food chains had to produce
the same fast food equally equally cheaply and and like the the only thing that that's missing from
the food is nutrition you know like taste is there calories it's great but like health and nutrition
that's like no nowhere to be found but here's what i i've been making this point
prior in private conversations a lot but look at the health industry like fast it came as a as a byproduct
of noticing uh fast food and it is a real huge um industry with a lot of people that create that kind
of product there's mcdonald's still exists yeah sure but there are many many many companies building
products for the health conscious people yeah and i think for digital health um we don't have that much
yet yeah yeah i think there's an insane demand yeah i go to subreddits that have nothing to do with tech
and you can notice the appeal and and for for for the nostalgia of a lot of these products
and i think one thing that like you and me and i think people in our circles we we tend to disregard
the nostalgia for the geocities and like the the look and feel of the current 17-year-old product
uh website that that we think oh it's because we are this age you know and we look back but people
that are young they they don't they don't um they don't mention by name that nostalgia but they do crave
the products that are not just influencer slop yeah like real connections yeah so i think that there's
very young people that are also drawn towards like gramophones and like very old style like vinyl
players and so on yes uh that's kind of that's a fair comparison right where it's like they're not
from that era but they still prefer they prefer that to like uh i don't know like an itunes subscription
and and you don't have to replace twitter or tick tock oh like you don't have by the way fun fact
the path we're walking right now can you see here that's the tracks yeah that's from the that's from
the romans that's like three thousand years old no way that's from roman cars being being wow
yeah they went this path a lot as you can tell it's like you know like a meter deep in terms of
that's wow that's amazing yeah yeah that's amazing the the path we're walking is called the roman path
i thought you were going to say like second world war but it's a little bit older no no it's very
very old see and we crave it yeah yeah we're like wow that's amazing look at look at the look and feel
look at the look and feel look at the ux of that thing
it's great it worked three thousand years ago it still works today that's what we're trying
to build right like something that still works like in in many many years and totally from now
totally yeah i mean that's that's why i switched my whole online identity to nostril only like a long
while ago because i realized okay like this thing has legs and it will still work like you know 30 years
from now even if it means i'm running the only relay that the only relay that exists right like i can
just i can just make it work indefinitely and you can't say the same thing about whatever geocities
youtube what have you you know substack and everything else and and i think that's a big appeal in the
sense of if you if you actually understand how it works you can just that's also why my my personal
home page for example it's just the static html and it's just like it's jackal it's a jackal site
right and it's just generated static html and the reason why i built it this way is not only because
i hate javascript and all the frameworks but i like i know it's about to last it's like just i slap a
whatever web server on it and it's just it's it's bound to work and i think we
also outside of the nostril community to your point there's lots of people that crave that and
want to have that and like we talked a lot about the self-hosting community right the local first
people and so on and but there's also i think what we are again making the comparison to fast food and
those kind of things there's a lot of people right now that are quitting everything and they're straight
up fasting yeah yeah totally totally food you can't do that by the way with digital stuff you can actually
do it like you can um you know like you can actually detox massively but i'm i'm still a technologist at
heart i want to i want to have technology i just don't want the technology to rape me and spy on me
and spit in my face and just telling me that it's raining right it's like that's but that's the current
state of technology and i i think there is a better way and i think the nostril has a big role to play in
it so that would be my summary i guess yeah i mean if you look at like the email marketing people like
infoproduct people they are very heavy on on email and they like people like ben settle like they say
it's there yeah because you actually own the email list yeah that's the only reason it's the only
reason it literally it's the only reason and what they do is spend literally zero minutes on social
media don't even have a social media because yeah the it's it doesn't matter if you have 10 million
followers they can be taken away like that only take people to your email list is the final destination
yeah everything else is a funnel for the email exactly and i think for people like that that have that
point of view you go in with a nostril pitch oh no nostril is different blah blah and they will say
you i've been burned before yeah sure i mean same with bitcoin right same thing same thing exactly exactly
the same thing yeah use use that use the magic internet money and and you know everything will
work flawlessly and you'll be rich over time i was i was um i was i was listening to uh you probably
know who nick fuentes is oh well by yeah i didn't know before either yeah i wouldn't call myself
a nick fuentes expert but i know i'm a nick fuentes connoisseur now i i i know the name i know some
memes that's about it so so apparently the guy was um was like uh the platform from like paypal and
this and whatnot of course like four or five years ago he has outlandish uh political opinions yeah
you you i mean i guess moderate uh and um and and the guy he disbeliefs on everything is a conspiracy
everything is like the cia out to get you and whatnot yeah he got he went for like um like high risk uh
payment credit card processors and whatnot nobody would take the guy yeah and he ended up on bitcoin yeah and
he fucking hate me it's a total scam but for like now he i think he has a ca processor yeah yeah like the
whole everything you know but the guy was using it because it was like the only thing to work like
he would immediately sell it i'm guessing he would immediately sell it for sure but but he was
using the thing because he was cornered into it yeah yeah i think nostr will have a similar fate for
for for for a couple of people where it's kind of the the the the final the the last bastion the
last thing that works the last tool that works where you can actually yeah i it's actually surprising
to me that we didn't get any um there aren't any people on nostr that i know of that were
where they platformed everywhere else i mean i think before they join nostr they will start their own
social network that has been the pattern that i observed yeah i i think them it's a bit because
like just the timing of how what happened with elon and twitter and like oh no everybody's a free
uh free speech blue sky as well what i mean lots of people went to blue sky for you know like oh that's
the actual green pasture yeah yeah yeah that's the actual free speech zone yeah for the liberals that
but but it's interesting like one of the one of the the interesting things that people um point to
with blue sky is that um is that it censors right and one of the the the reasons why like i think the
second reason why people leave substack the most is that they don't censor enough
oh yeah really how how so like explain that more it's like there's atrocious stuff on substack and
that's why they leave substack is like um substack it's kind of like the the pitch is a bit like rumbly
you know ish in the sense of oh you can come in you own your audience and whatnot um and it's kind of like
free speech uh adjacent it's like they are positioning themselves obviously there's a door to knock so
obviously that will not hold but they they did uh allow like i don't know like what the left calls
neo-nazi content it might be someone that said something pro-trump or something like that um so a lot
of people started leaving because of that sighting they are allowing this hate speech and whatnot in
the platform so i'm going to patreon you know a lot of people are leaving towards patrons and stuff
like that it's the second most popular reason interesting yeah um which i don't know i i think
that's also something that is quite interesting about noster that
it's not one big substack yeah it's your relay you don't you don't say i'm gonna leave email just
because someone sent a bad email exactly you don't have but i think i think people didn't don't aren't
at the point yet to understand oster as a protocol and i think this will take time but i think because
there's some there's some like like blue skype role plays as a protocol basically but the reason i think
the reason why people don't perceive it that way is because we are not building it that way you turn
primal yeah there's one experience yeah you join whatever and it's like this one experience and
sure if you're like very technically inclined you can select your relays and you can be like on the tie
noster it's it's not the sign in that way like the products the protocol absolutely allows for that
but none of the applications really yeah are going for this is more like the like the way i'm seeing
it is the relay is like a magazine and you subscribe to a magazine you don't quit magazines
because there's a magazine that you don't like you just don't read the magazine yeah sit but to be
fair noster isn't it doesn't work like that yet like most relays have most of the content right there's
like there's no again and i think that it's also back to back to the of the products back to the i
agree i agree but also back to the like it's a fool's errand to try to box content in the content
especially viral content will proliferate across relays
i i don't agree with that no no no no because you can simply just white list who can write on the
sure but i'll just hit rebroadcast and i want this to the most really simply doesn't allow you like
these parts to publish my relay only allows these 200 parties to publish yeah yeah sure no i just mean
like if something is viral one of the 200 will will republish it to your relay that's my point yeah
but if you like like copy and paste and whatnot i think that's perfectly fine yeah yeah like with a
with a retweet or like a quote tweet or whatever so for example on the on the the the agoda relay so
each each region i i do agree sorry to interrupt but i do agree with your point because i do have personal
relays and that's a very small subset of the whole nostril burst is on that relay because it's just for
my personal backup right yeah and i think like relay fits it's it's what's interesting yeah it's why you
you subscribe like and you can select select five relays which in your mind yeah they they are the same
kind of thing yeah and i think in the long run nostril will actually be something else entirely i mean
it obviously started as a twitter clone but i think the other thing that was successful in terms
of grouping was reddit with subreddits yeah and i think i think we'll have a mix in the sense of you
you will follow relay and you will have like relay based feeds and also you know algo based feeds and
and so on and so on but um yeah no it's it's it will just still take time to to to play out because
most people i think the reason why i mentioned that before is like if you if you talk to
i don't talk to people as you know i hate people fuck people man but if you if you read online and
it's like you you read on hecka news you read on reddit you read on whatever blue sky and whatever
in other networks so to speak what they talk what they say about nostril is like ah it's just like
this app it's this app for like you know crypto people crypto people it's this crypto app isn't
this the crypto app you know like and i think that's where the level of understanding is for
most people we're not at the hey email is actually a protocol kind of stage yet because i'm sure in
the beginning it was like at&t or whatever and i don't know what you know like the email was such
a new thing people were not able to wrap their head around it it was like one product by one company
basically it's what i'm trying to say right and i think that's where we at in the development cycle
of nostril like kind of socially speaking yeah but but i think the way we are designing products is
playing on that hand like like piling on on that perception of you to treat relays in this generic
way you know um and not like i i i see say for example you wanted to use let's say amethyst for
example to use nostril in this way it it's it's it's in this like magazine type of way in this the
release is like this this group of like content or community or group like it's some type of abstract
curation yeah there's very few clients to do that there's jumble right so hard and there's like two
more there's like a few but but but even even the experience itself it's kind of weird it's kind of weird
um and and again it's it's a it's a a self-fulfilling prophecy it's hard to use nostril in this way
so you end up using the the the the relays are as this generic content bucket um
and yeah i think there's there is a lot of work that we but but but i think we need to break with
this paradigm of this is how we like nostril clients work they they look like twitter you know
like this is kind of experience i think subreddit is a much more uh compelling way of thinking about
how to build up a client i think it's also it's it it will depend on your form factor in the sense of
like the mobile clients will look very different than desktop clients and this is already emerging this is
already happening yeah and there there is interesting clients i mean uh grimoire for example um is
there's all these clients now that are kind of desktop power user clients and i i myself for
example i use many different nostril clients and they're all kind of special purpose or many of them
are special purpose i still use amethyst as my my main driver like my daily driver which is of course
comical because it's the everything client basically and here i am talking about special purpose clients
no but but i'm serious i'm i'm what always what always um yeah there you go it can be pretty if if
if you're not depressed it's a very pretty place if you are already depressed you're gonna have a bad time
here you're depressed the environment yeah you're right yeah yeah next six months just just kill
yourself do it get it over right now it's like you won't see the sunlight for many months just just
just get it done no but i there is a client written by a japanese guy i can't pronounce the name like
at all it has a little it has it sounds something like it it has a little postage stamp in the top left
and the only purpose is is to send a kind one note and it shows nothing else it's an empty text field
right yeah and it does things really well with like also posting images follow upload and so on
and many times i just want to write something and i don't want to see anything else right yeah because
if i open any client i'll be in the feed yeah and i'll see something i'm immediately distracted you
know and and so i have this as uh one of my um i have this as my my home page basically like i
open up my browser and this thing is in one of the taps i have like three or four taps that open up
and that's one of them because if i want to post something that's on my mind i'm just going to go
ahead and hit post i'm just going to send it not even looking at nostra basically right and i mean
and there's there's a bunch of other special purpose clients that i think are are are interesting
like the i don't know like then we come back to like what is another client but again me posting
stuff for example like this recording right now if i say some magic words there it's automatically
posted to an oster and then caster which is obviously you know an oster client that transforms
an oster feed into an rss feed picks it up and pushes it out as an rss feed and all this is like
special purpose it's not very user-facing but it's like special purpose clients do exist
this kind of absolutely no no no oh another one my the search that i built and also also boris like i
i keep a close like one of the tabs that opens up in my browser it's like the ant search for most
recent highlights what people have highlighted and i always every single day i discover one or two
interesting articles this way and and like all those kind of little things it's it's a read-only
client like it's ants can't do shit it's just like you know it's just doing search
no no no i i mean of course i absolutely agree with that and i think these special purposes clients
it's endless design space yeah but you have a point i mean there's primal and there is uh you know
there's all these products so to speak there's primal amethyst damas and so on and that's if
if we're being honest that's like for most people that's the first touch that's what nostrils yeah for
most people yeah and they don't make the switch to another client but i think i i think right now
that's i think that's also fine because probably like 10 of them do
it's very similar to bitcoin right like most people that get into bitcoin don't stay with bitcoin
and they will get into shit coining or they're fiat maxis and you know you you will we'll have to live
with that i guess yeah and i think i think we'll find i'm still very hopeful in the sense of
i realized that was all very pessimistic talk from my side
no that's fine i still think we're fine i still think like on the positive side i'm i'm actually
amazed about how well things work yeah it's probably because there's very few people
no but no but i really mean it like the even stuff that came out of sovereign engineering
it's amazing to me how well this stuff works yeah like i use blossom every single day without thinking
about it without anything it's just one more tool and i and i see it absolutely everywhere it's
integrated everywhere and it's like most of the links are blossom links and yeah and and just kind of
how buggy nosto was in the beginning it's amazing like like i think i told this in the past i told it in
in one of the conversations it came up like it's my go-to method to see if i'm online or not
it's like i i you know i launched my my nosto client and i refresh because i immediate i can
immediately tell like if new stuff is streaming in and coming in then i i know i'm on if i'm offline
it still kind of works but i only see my stuff that i just recently posted right which is great like
it's fantastic you're online-ish yeah exactly and and just like all the stuff that you've been working on
and just nip 60 nip 61 and so on it really really works like it's all the stuff really works and and just
kind of the clients became more polished and like even video and shit works i i think we've been on
this like professionalizing mode in the past six months nine months that where there is a lot of
very solid uh very solid frameworks very solid relays like i think we're in technically we're in very
good shape yeah okay except my brother i'm gonna die
all right any last words before you take a piss no we're not gonna record this i i can only do one thing
thanks for indulging me oh thanks for the drink yeah
let's see if we can we let's see if we can draw this to a close
and yeah we'll have to we'll have to to do the other thing another time
but for now it was just a walk and a recording which is very which is great it was very nice all right
all right we managed