1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,840 With no peopling. Oh, okay. Let me see. Let's do it like this. All right, but let's not waste 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:14,880 any more time. This is just going to be a no solutions afternoon. This is on? Yeah, but it's 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:27,520 not plugged in yet. It's on. All right. Okay, change of plans. The brake was not a brake. 4 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:35,920 We wanted to do something else. We wanted to go sauna. But yeah, like it's just the people around 5 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:43,200 here are just, just, you know. Too much time. Yeah, it's, I think it's in their history, you know, 6 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:49,200 like ever since this one, one guy came to power, they were speaking weird and just had this weird 7 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:54,800 mustache. It went all downhill from there. From this point on. Was it John Barbados? No, different, 8 00:00:54,800 --> 00:01:00,880 different guy, different guy. Shorter. He could, not as hard to pronounce the name. 9 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:07,280 Memorable name. Yeah, very memorable. He was really good marketing. Yeah, great marketing. 10 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:14,960 Great designs, beautiful logos. Oh man, like the, the, the, the suits he made, they're still killer. 11 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:24,000 The Hugo Boss was behind all that. Crazy. Great cars. Killer cars. Great, great, great Autobahnen that 12 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,880 he built, you know, great, great streets. He did, he did many, many things. Where are leaders like that? 13 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:36,020 today oh they're reappearing they're they're coming back they're coming back yeah yeah yeah 14 00:01:36,020 --> 00:01:44,000 yeah some some many people i think would would like to would like to have a second merry-go-round 15 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:51,040 around the authoritarian regime kind of thing it hasn't really tried you know exactly exactly full 16 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:58,020 full real socialism hasn't hasn't been tried yet well anyway we're just gonna talk about um 17 00:01:58,020 --> 00:02:05,740 your adventures some more so change of plans we're gonna grab a drink um at the thing at the box at 18 00:02:05,740 --> 00:02:11,700 the box office you'll see i show you man box because we we actually made the mistake multiple 19 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:17,200 times i think right with just kind of completely dehydrating during a no solutions recording 20 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:25,480 so yeah let's not make this mistake again four times the same mistake yeah at least it's not 21 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:32,200 it's we we're behaving like llm agents you know it's just like never never learn never learn 22 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:38,520 you are totally right yeah you're totally right i mean give me a couple of billion dollars to 23 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,720 retrain myself and maybe i'll i'll not make the mistake again 24 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:51,840 all right phf sent me uh today this um this thing um i know it was like a very long report i only 25 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:58,120 read the first two lines they were very interesting um that apparently someone prompted them with um 26 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:07,480 with fix uh fix world poverty oh okay apparently they let the thing run for like i don't know how 27 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:13,320 like i have no idea what the setup was but uh apparently it made like a google doc and a react tab 28 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:20,120 nothing works like all the different asians were saying that they had conflicts that each one of the like 29 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:26,060 after like two days of working they realized that they were working in isolated uh workspaces one of 30 00:03:26,060 --> 00:03:28,400 them was trying to debug but it couldn't log it into google 31 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:38,120 so so so world hunger is still not fixed oh man what a shame what a shame what a shame 32 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:45,480 but that would be interesting what the the because what they actually do is like take the 33 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:51,300 accumulated written knowledge of the world and and trying to make sense of it and how would the 34 00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:55,780 accumulated knowledge of the world fix world hunger because it react up it's it's right 35 00:03:55,780 --> 00:04:02,320 well that explains the state of the world i would have guessed like straight up communism basically 36 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:09,800 that's that would have been my guess but i think world hunger is actually basically fixed in some 37 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:15,460 sense like we there's more fat people than starving people and it has been like this for a very long time 38 00:04:15,460 --> 00:04:21,400 yeah and i mean we are producing food like crazy like we have an overabundance of food 39 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:27,600 it's not amount of food it's distribution and stuff like that yeah and and corruption in the really poor places 40 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:45,400 and and so on and so on yeah in argentina there was this um this organization sending food from buenos aires to like very poor provinces um and sometimes they would put like you know inside of whatever like a like a like a box or something like that they would put like messages 41 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:51,340 yeah and they would pop up being sold the same food box being sold in buenos aires 42 00:04:51,340 --> 00:04:53,340 oh okay okay repurposing 43 00:04:53,340 --> 00:05:03,620 i see they they build a a system just like the the nfc tags the rfid tags but just handwritten those 44 00:05:03,620 --> 00:05:08,500 just to figure out how where stuff circulates that's smart actually 45 00:05:08,500 --> 00:05:13,440 speaking of argentina tell me about all your other projects 46 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:21,380 none of them are about argentina i only do like projects that might go somewhere 47 00:05:21,380 --> 00:05:33,380 yeah no it's it's interesting like most of the stuff like basically all the stuff that i'm doing is as a way to test stuff for 10x 48 00:05:33,380 --> 00:05:39,320 um like again i did all last and then the k swift and all as android and all as well 49 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,320 like all the old stuff that it serves in 50 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:47,260 the purpose of i need to build something to test the thing um so 51 00:05:47,260 --> 00:05:57,260 so yeah i mean the the focus has been 100% on on on on this i also find it insanely interesting like it is so fascinating the type of problems 52 00:05:57,260 --> 00:06:05,200 um so yeah integrated ndk swift and ndk kotlin with 53 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,200 with uh with uh with nostr db um 54 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:15,140 um then i've been doing a lot of work with uh with leopoldo lopez 55 00:06:15,140 --> 00:06:23,080 yeah um it's it's it's an interesting client it's it's a client that it's sort of like 56 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:52,080 starting from the premise of instead of the premise of like rebuilding twitter or you know like this more global quote-unquote feed it's starting from the premise of you only care about your immediate surroundings yeah so when you are when you when you join you are it's kind of assumed that you're joining because someone invited you okay yeah um so i wrote um 57 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,960 oh you need a car to line yeah there's that's kyc at the entrance 58 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:02,660 oh no oh no i'm already i'm already i'm already locked out 59 00:07:02,660 --> 00:07:10,140 all right i'll i'll need another one i'll need another identity let me see let's see 60 00:07:10,140 --> 00:07:18,120 ah but that's bad then now we might we might dehydrate completely i have none 61 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:26,360 but uh maybe with uh oh there we go see oh well they just it just needed a while to copy the card 62 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:31,240 just to completely scan me it's just needed for the proofs of identity 63 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:31,800 yeah 64 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:39,060 all right what do you what do you want to have i really like this one that's some some sort of 65 00:07:39,060 --> 00:07:44,500 so like mango no it's like it's almost like an iced tea but it's it's incredibly low on sugar 66 00:07:44,500 --> 00:07:48,660 okay yeah i'll have one of those there's a wrangle of water as well if you want 67 00:07:48,660 --> 00:07:54,100 some more no you'll be fine with this i'm fine with that yeah all right let's do it 68 00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:55,940 you know having someone to blame if it's bad 69 00:07:55,940 --> 00:08:00,420 you learned that from your agents 70 00:08:00,420 --> 00:08:11,540 so how did the launch go of the of the of the client and all those kind of things it's it's 71 00:08:11,540 --> 00:08:17,460 still an ongoing process all right all right and so the idea is kind of local um 72 00:08:18,740 --> 00:08:26,020 basically you build your network by the the network of invites is that right yeah that's that's basically 73 00:08:26,020 --> 00:08:36,580 so like i i i think trust is something that within bitcoin is kind of don't trust verify 74 00:08:36,580 --> 00:08:42,980 but there is a lot of value in trust if you can trust oh sure uh like i i'm doing peer-to-peer trades 75 00:08:43,620 --> 00:08:49,220 right now i told you yeah in a way that because i know the counterpart so well yeah i can pay him like 76 00:08:49,220 --> 00:08:53,540 a couple of days later we don't need an escrow we don't need like a lot of all of these things right 77 00:08:53,540 --> 00:09:01,540 um so what if you do the peer-to-peer trade with someone that you know how you are related to that 78 00:09:01,540 --> 00:09:07,540 person if it's a neighbor or if you know someone that can vouch for that person because you can see 79 00:09:07,540 --> 00:09:13,060 cryptographically linked this person was invited into into the relay by this other person yeah 80 00:09:13,620 --> 00:09:23,620 um and yeah it has a bunch of interesting things i built um the use case is very it's very different 81 00:09:23,620 --> 00:09:32,180 than what we think of nosterras like the use case is a lot about a local place for where people can 82 00:09:32,180 --> 00:09:39,220 have like a like a public square but within one specific region and they might be doing citizen 83 00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:46,740 journalism now those people they don't want to like dox their their real identity if they're publishing 84 00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:52,100 stuff about corruption stuff like that if they are in those um yeah places right physically 85 00:09:52,100 --> 00:10:01,700 but what if you can kind of out of band without leaving like any trace um be able to say hey i'm 86 00:10:01,700 --> 00:10:07,780 going to be publishing with this pubkey i'm going to be publishing something and you can vouch for this 87 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:13,700 person and it's kind of like a source like a journalist says they don't say who the source is the 88 00:10:13,700 --> 00:10:19,780 journalist is saying this is a credible source you don't need to know who that person is you just need 89 00:10:19,780 --> 00:10:26,180 to trust that the journalist is not lying yeah yeah so you can do the same thing and within us we can do 90 00:10:26,180 --> 00:10:33,780 all that out of band yeah within like with diff wraps and all the things right yeah in a way that leopoldo 91 00:10:33,780 --> 00:10:39,380 or someone that is well known within that community says this is a credible person it's not publishing 92 00:10:39,380 --> 00:10:45,860 bullshit i'm lending my credibility to this puppy yeah and that puppy can publish whatever they need to 93 00:10:45,860 --> 00:10:51,860 yeah yeah um i haven't implemented that but i will they can do the publishing with the onion routing 94 00:10:51,860 --> 00:10:56,900 like stuff that we built in in summer engineering where not even their ip address is leaked yeah yeah 95 00:10:56,900 --> 00:11:05,620 um so there are no ties to their real identity in any kind of way yeah you can build a dedicated 96 00:11:05,620 --> 00:11:11,380 publishing tool that takes care of all of that that ticket and all the tech yeah because you go from 97 00:11:11,380 --> 00:11:16,500 the premise that these are non-technical people which is actually the case yeah it's actually the case 98 00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:21,380 activists are non-technical people oh yeah yeah i know i mean i've i've on boarded a bunch and and 99 00:11:21,380 --> 00:11:24,980 like almost almost everyone of course you know lost their first key 100 00:11:24,980 --> 00:11:27,940 including 101 00:11:27,940 --> 00:11:35,380 but i think that's also fine i think that's a that's a you know it's a very inexpensive lesson 102 00:11:35,380 --> 00:11:40,900 to learn and and it's also something something you know that we're we're working on yeah hopefully 103 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:47,060 will be fixed in in in some way in the long run with again like i think i think um fatty did this 104 00:11:47,060 --> 00:11:53,380 really well i think fatty had the right uh right ideas around that with kind of a community-based 105 00:11:53,380 --> 00:11:58,660 backup and recovery approach those kind of things i think that that that's really nice so we did 106 00:11:58,660 --> 00:12:09,300 not very xxx um what like a month ago or so um and we did a session just on this just on identity 107 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:14,820 migration and we run through the proposal that i wrote like two years ago and i did the implementation 108 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:20,980 and i had some refinement because one of the things is the the agora client comes with an ip60 wallet 109 00:12:20,980 --> 00:12:28,340 and you can get subs there will be like substantial subs because there is some real funds coming yeah from 110 00:12:28,340 --> 00:12:31,460 people that you know yeah um and 111 00:12:31,460 --> 00:12:40,260 the money is in the key yeah yeah so so now that the key is not just your identity it's also money 112 00:12:40,260 --> 00:12:47,940 yeah so and this is non-technical people so now what i built for for for agoda uh that we are now like 113 00:12:47,940 --> 00:12:57,140 making a nip around it is when at some point you know like you get two enough followers there is enough 114 00:12:57,140 --> 00:13:04,500 value on the private key to make it worth your while you can select people not that you trust 115 00:13:04,500 --> 00:13:12,180 you select people that you can reach which is different and all you're doing is you symmetrically 116 00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:16,260 encrypt with with like a passphrase a passphrase that you remember you know it doesn't have to be 117 00:13:16,260 --> 00:13:22,580 like super secure it's just to protect yourself a little bit more yeah shamir's secret sharding the 118 00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:30,180 private key and you send it as a follow event from an ephemeral key to the people that you say that you 119 00:13:30,180 --> 00:13:37,460 not trust again someone that you can call on the phone yeah and you with enough quorum say three out of five 120 00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:42,500 whatever it might be if you tell them okay send me the shards send me the shard send me the shard 121 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:47,060 uh which is new they don't need to know what a shard is yeah sure but it's click here it's all 122 00:13:47,060 --> 00:13:51,860 it's directed away yeah and that's it and you get your key back you get your key back so that protects 123 00:13:51,860 --> 00:13:59,380 you from i lost my key yeah and the um the identity migration stuff protects you from my key got stolen 124 00:13:59,380 --> 00:14:04,980 yeah someone else has my key two very different things yeah we can solve with the same problem yeah 125 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:11,380 but you what you can't solve and i think or correct me if i'm wrong but one really hard problem is like 126 00:14:11,380 --> 00:14:18,820 if you build stuff up over time like and and your key gets stolen like the rolling over old events 127 00:14:18,820 --> 00:14:26,260 basically no no that's uh to me it's a problem not not worth solving not worth solving i i think i agree 128 00:14:26,260 --> 00:14:33,860 you can do something you can do some stuff around it yeah it's you can republish with the new one you 129 00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:38,820 can republish with the new one there's still all the events are going to be linked yeah tagging the 130 00:14:38,820 --> 00:14:45,220 old the old no and it's also what i like about nostr is and to some degree also about bitcoin is that 131 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:52,340 that it just it works in practice even if all like not every problem is perfectly solved theoretically 132 00:14:53,140 --> 00:14:58,020 and i think that's that's one of those yeah there you go there is no solutions to certain things 133 00:14:58,020 --> 00:15:05,780 and yeah i i think i agree with you that that that that particular problem is probably not worth 134 00:15:05,780 --> 00:15:13,700 solving but the key loss like onboarding and loss problem is definitely worth solving and it's very 135 00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:19,780 kind of trivial solvable it is it should be yeah and again i think fatty did a really good job with with 136 00:15:19,780 --> 00:15:26,260 that that was kind of the there were wallets before that that did also the social recovery 137 00:15:26,260 --> 00:15:34,740 uh shamir secret sharing thing and that also worked as far as i know but the issue with that is always 138 00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:40,100 that they had to bootstrap their own social network basically and that's where nostr shines where you 139 00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:44,260 can just like you already have your contacts you already know the people and you just need to during the 140 00:15:44,260 --> 00:15:51,940 setup process basically select like the five people or select the ten people or whatever that um are 141 00:15:51,940 --> 00:15:57,860 actually reachable talk to me more about the reachable versus trust thing why is this distinction 142 00:15:57,860 --> 00:16:04,660 important here well you you're not giving them your key you know me shamir you they don't really gain 143 00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:12,820 any kind of special access you they they and the fact that they don't even know necessarily i mean they 144 00:16:12,820 --> 00:16:17,700 could maybe they can guess it but they could they wouldn't necessarily know who the other counterparts 145 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:23,700 are of the split uh because it's all published with a different key and it's all published in a 146 00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:28,740 yeah you just know you're a person you don't know the whole quorum so conspiring is you don't even 147 00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:33,460 very hard you don't even know that you are a holder until someone asks you hey i need you will 148 00:16:33,460 --> 00:16:40,660 know you will know after the fact okay okay um which is kind of cool yeah interesting okay yeah 149 00:16:40,660 --> 00:16:48,420 yeah because it's you are p tagging them on a kind three on a follow all they see is a follow event 150 00:16:48,420 --> 00:16:55,780 there is just this weird payload somewhere yeah on the event uh but if you see the event on on primal 151 00:16:55,780 --> 00:17:03,060 or something you just see someone followed you yeah that's it yeah yeah i see okay yeah no that's 152 00:17:03,060 --> 00:17:11,140 cool that's cool that's cool how what else was discussed in the nostra xxx um i i think the most 153 00:17:11,140 --> 00:17:17,940 interesting the main points the the most interesting stuff was was the the identity i think it's like 154 00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:24,260 something that is still very important to solve properly the next cohort will focus on identity 155 00:17:24,260 --> 00:17:33,380 purely basically right let's see how it goes all the implementations will go there um what else um 156 00:17:33,380 --> 00:17:43,380 what else is we discussed we discussed um like uh not paywalls but um like subscriptions and stuff like 157 00:17:43,380 --> 00:17:53,780 that that's still um yet to be solved um it's one of my pet peeves as you know there's still so many 158 00:17:53,780 --> 00:17:59,780 people in the in the bitcoin world and in the industry world that are trying to paywall content i'm just 159 00:17:59,780 --> 00:18:06,260 gonna yap about that for a couple minutes because that's just i i still think it's so misguided and 160 00:18:06,260 --> 00:18:10,100 it's just kind of i don't know look at the most 161 00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:18,740 i don't know it's it's very frustrating to me because i just think it's the wrong 162 00:18:18,740 --> 00:18:25,700 approach and if you look at um online creators 163 00:18:26,740 --> 00:18:32,580 how they actually make money and and and how they how they monetize themselves 164 00:18:32,580 --> 00:18:36,340 it's not with paywall content in the traditional sense 165 00:18:36,340 --> 00:18:40,420 and i see that's my that's my my main criticism 166 00:18:40,420 --> 00:18:46,420 for most people that would like to do that is still that most people think about paywalls with 167 00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:53,060 you cannot see the blog post but if you pay 21 sets then you will be able to see the blog post 168 00:18:53,060 --> 00:18:57,060 and that just never works because like someone will pay it and screenshot it and then send it around 169 00:18:57,060 --> 00:19:02,100 for free yeah and and and the distinction is terribly important because what actually works is 170 00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:08,020 i mean you see that on twitch and then on on on the big platforms and so on only fans is maybe a 171 00:19:08,020 --> 00:19:13,860 great example as well where like i mean i'm i i still don't know why people pay for only fans but in 172 00:19:13,860 --> 00:19:20,180 the best case it's kind of early access you know yeah it's it's actually it's actually like all this 173 00:19:20,180 --> 00:19:27,540 stuff is you cannot box content in no matter how hard you try and so what you what you can monetize 174 00:19:27,540 --> 00:19:36,660 is special special times and places where you have like a an elevated access level basically and i 175 00:19:36,660 --> 00:19:42,980 think i think i think fear jeff is right about his kind of relay idea that kind of you 176 00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:50,900 like it it it could be relay based in some sense where it's like this this this relay is like paid 177 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:57,700 only and it's it's very much like a you know a close chat room that you might have on discord or 178 00:19:57,700 --> 00:20:01,940 what have you and those kind of things and it's the thing that doesn't scale right like you can copy content 179 00:20:01,940 --> 00:20:07,460 endlessly for no cost exactly but you cannot copy a relationship yeah you can't copy a live chat that 180 00:20:07,460 --> 00:20:14,020 has q a exactly you can copy a one-on-one or a 10 to one with the creator yeah anyway like quick rant 181 00:20:14,020 --> 00:20:19,300 about that because i just i still see projects and i still see people trying to make paywalls like 182 00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:25,300 traditional paywalls work and they i think they're just very misguided i i still think 183 00:20:26,580 --> 00:20:32,500 yeah i i don't know like in some sense i mentioned twitch a lot in these kind of conversations yeah 184 00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:40,820 there you go i'm gonna take a picture of this yeah let's go my kids are gonna be 185 00:20:40,820 --> 00:20:49,940 insanely insanely jealous of it i'm gonna be like i saw this you you did it you did not 186 00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:59,300 but you know me and i saw them so you one degree of separation one degree of separation you saw it by proxy 187 00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:03,380 that's cute right yeah 188 00:21:03,380 --> 00:21:18,340 i think they're like um um not too not too long ago we saw a we saw a deer like every day really 189 00:21:18,340 --> 00:21:26,260 or different years kind of it's it's um because the the we had to drive the same route all the time 190 00:21:26,260 --> 00:21:32,660 yeah and and just every single day there was a deer somewhere either on the street or in the field 191 00:21:32,660 --> 00:21:42,260 nearby and so but yeah it's it's you know it's very very romantic very romantic place we are in a 192 00:21:42,260 --> 00:21:49,860 romantic stroll kind of situation like shitting on paywalls romantically shitting on paywalls 193 00:21:49,860 --> 00:21:56,260 no i think it's kind of interesting because i think there is a like our instinct is to build 194 00:21:56,260 --> 00:22:02,340 with the new technology what has already been built before without this new technology i think we did the 195 00:22:02,340 --> 00:22:07,460 same thing and it's kind of like the realization i've been having lately with with nostr is that we 196 00:22:07,460 --> 00:22:14,260 started just rebuilding the alternative to twitter the alternative to like the to instagram that i yeah 197 00:22:14,260 --> 00:22:21,700 and and i think it's the wrong framing like it i told this to million it's like it's like doing nostr 198 00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:30,500 adoption in hard mode it's is you are picking the hardest battle because you're focusing on a problem of a 199 00:22:31,620 --> 00:22:38,020 network effects an overserved market like the the the level of the the quality of the applications that 200 00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:44,420 you're going against is insane like you'll never be able to match that um and there are new things 201 00:22:44,420 --> 00:22:49,060 that can be built because of this technology well because of bitcoin because of nostr there are new 202 00:22:49,060 --> 00:22:56,420 things that could not be built before and i find that so much more interesting but it's i think it's very 203 00:22:56,420 --> 00:23:01,860 hard to figure out what the new things are let's go here by the way it's i i think we're in the process 204 00:23:01,860 --> 00:23:10,180 of trying to figure it out i i i still think it's valuable to have a sub stack and medium and instagram 205 00:23:10,180 --> 00:23:16,980 and twitter replacement and so on like just speaking purely self selfish selfishly oh what are you looking 206 00:23:16,980 --> 00:23:25,060 at it oh it's just i came on that seat on the flight over actually i meant to send it to you no coincidences 207 00:23:25,060 --> 00:23:33,380 21 is everywhere um but like for me nostr replaced twitter completely and i know i'm a very special 208 00:23:33,380 --> 00:23:38,500 case i know you know like yeah for me it was only bitcoin twitter and like us like all the people 209 00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:44,340 that are currently on us there we are a different market oh absolutely absolutely but to me to me it's kind 210 00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:54,580 of like to me it's not clear what the new things are outside of the 211 00:23:54,580 --> 00:24:03,620 frictionless value sending that the bitcoin and saps and lightning and e-cash and everything provides 212 00:24:03,620 --> 00:24:10,340 which is kind of a little bit outside of nostr strong overlap but but but you know what i'm trying 213 00:24:10,340 --> 00:24:16,180 to say like the the rest of it is a very hard sell the rest of it is kind of the um i talked about 214 00:24:16,180 --> 00:24:22,180 this in the past the computer science professor that self-hosts his like static index html website 215 00:24:22,180 --> 00:24:28,660 and has self-hosted it for the last 40 years from his like you know toaster that runs linux on it from 216 00:24:28,660 --> 00:24:36,500 his closet you know that's the value proposition it's like you if you know how to use nostr right you 217 00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:41,380 can't actually be self-sovereign in in this corner of the internet and the corner of the internet very 218 00:24:41,380 --> 00:24:49,220 much feels like what the platforms brought us so so here's what what i've been thinking is that 219 00:24:49,220 --> 00:24:58,180 like i think intuitively we think like our instinct compels us to think that the next thing 220 00:24:58,740 --> 00:25:05,700 is a replica of the previous big thing like all the people that go for shit coins is what is the 221 00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:10,900 next bitcoin and the next bitcoin is bitcoin right oh yeah and and i think that's the case like what 222 00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:15,940 is the next facebook it's fucking facebook um like all this is not going to be the next instagram because 223 00:25:15,940 --> 00:25:24,260 the next instagram is instagram what what i think is is is compelling and i i don't know if you follow 224 00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:32,500 like how close you follow like this the stuff that goes on on substack but there is a lot of backlash 225 00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:40,580 against substack for the simple reason and it's an unfixable problem which i think it's so interesting 226 00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:48,660 it's just a function of size it is so big and it's it's always pareto distribution 227 00:25:49,540 --> 00:25:55,300 there's always a few people making a fuckload of money yeah yeah everyone else everybody else starts 228 00:25:55,300 --> 00:26:01,140 yeah and everybody everybody else is trying to get what is the latest marketing gimmick of what you can 229 00:26:01,140 --> 00:26:07,860 do how much you have to post on notes on on on uh on substack and they're all playing for peanuts yeah 230 00:26:07,860 --> 00:26:14,740 they're all working their asses off they went there with the assumption that it's a small market which is 231 00:26:14,740 --> 00:26:20,900 why it worked at the beginning it worked not because of how the thing is structured or because the founders 232 00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:25,700 have like really good intentions or whatnot like the intentions don't matter it's just the size is so 233 00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:32,100 big and it's always going to be pareto because humans we think in this way like you see that someone 234 00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:37,940 has a million followers and you're gonna pay more attention yeah i mean that's uh that's uh it seems like 235 00:26:37,940 --> 00:26:45,620 that's how the the universe works i mean uh peterson had a long uh like rant on that many many years ago 236 00:26:45,620 --> 00:26:52,100 it's it's the the matthew principle like to to you know it's in the bible already i don't know the verse 237 00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:57,860 but it's like to those who have everything more will be given and to those who have nothing you know even 238 00:26:57,860 --> 00:27:02,980 more will be taken those kind of things so it's it's similar like you can see the pareto distribution 239 00:27:02,980 --> 00:27:11,460 everywhere like size of stars height of trees you know nutrition in in in like you know packs of 240 00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:18,340 animals like the the the most successful will get everything basically like or like 80 of it 241 00:27:19,540 --> 00:27:27,460 it seems to be just uh yeah it's just how things work yeah yeah it's just the universe structure and 242 00:27:27,460 --> 00:27:32,340 but do you do you think nostril will have an easier time kind of 243 00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:37,620 counteracting that in some sense like let me rephrase that it seems to me 244 00:27:37,620 --> 00:27:42,660 that all the platforms are especially prone to that because you have like 245 00:27:43,220 --> 00:27:51,540 one single lens on the whole graph so to speak and email for example doesn't have this issue that much 246 00:27:51,540 --> 00:28:00,100 yeah right totally i would i would guess yeah yeah totally yeah the way i think about it is that 247 00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:07,140 within a platform which is a database within a database you're putting all content 248 00:28:08,420 --> 00:28:18,100 in the same database this way okay and you are you are waiting the value however way you define value 249 00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:26,420 engagement whatever it might be um under that same lens and that's why we end up with it's all porn 250 00:28:26,420 --> 00:28:32,580 it's all cats video it's all short videos it's all like the most engaging stuff because you are waiting 251 00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:38,740 yeah you're optimizing for the wrong thing you're optimizing for attention and engagement you're 252 00:28:38,740 --> 00:28:40,980 hi 253 00:28:40,980 --> 00:28:55,060 you are you're optimizing for engagement it could be that you're optimizing for i don't know 254 00:28:55,060 --> 00:29:01,540 haikus or whatever it might be like you could use whatever algorithm you want but it's one thing 255 00:29:02,580 --> 00:29:14,100 it's like you're waiting the value of a picture with the value of a a poem or a song yeah or a tweet 256 00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:23,780 or a post yeah um and the reason why i do think that nostr has a different promise 257 00:29:23,780 --> 00:29:31,940 is that scaling nostr is hard like scaling a single relay so it will always fragment 258 00:29:31,940 --> 00:29:38,900 it tends towards fragmentation yeah naturally yeah it naturally sends towards 259 00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:47,380 you are not gonna have a billion people using one virtual relay like one single entity which is also 260 00:29:47,380 --> 00:29:54,580 why many small markets is strictly superior to like one big centrally planned instance that distributes 261 00:29:54,580 --> 00:30:01,380 goods exactly right it's a scaling issue as well exactly and i think the promise of nostr like what's 262 00:30:01,380 --> 00:30:08,500 interesting about it is that you as the user with your outbox and with your your key and whatnot 263 00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:15,460 you get to decide what the internet is for you at any point in time and the system can react 264 00:30:15,460 --> 00:30:24,020 to how your preferences evolve how your consumption of content and your interactions how do they evolve 265 00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:33,540 and you can have completely different weighting of what is valuable to you on different relays 266 00:30:35,540 --> 00:30:41,380 so to me it's like a much more organic and natural way 267 00:30:41,380 --> 00:30:49,380 of approaching the problem of what is worth my admission yeah yeah to me to me it's a different 268 00:30:49,380 --> 00:30:55,700 paradigm in the sense and i i made this comparison just recently um 269 00:30:55,700 --> 00:31:07,380 can you believe it i appeared in a in another podcast german speaking one what oh my god the spell has been broken yeah 270 00:31:09,140 --> 00:31:16,260 the one i uh launched myself yeah thanks i was i was asking you to pronounce it 271 00:31:17,940 --> 00:31:23,700 it must sound how did i do it it must sound very similar to berbeki in your years 272 00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:33,780 same same word basically i know 20 and berbeki exactly the same thing but i i feel like the 273 00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:43,700 to me it's very interesting that all the i think you made a great point before where all the content types 274 00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:49,300 compete with each other basically for attention because that's the only thing that you have online 275 00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:56,180 and that's why all the platforms turn themselves into the tick tock they have to look at self stock 276 00:31:56,180 --> 00:32:01,940 oh i know they have to tick tock like it's so far like yeah for them to short videos it's like 277 00:32:01,940 --> 00:32:06,260 so far it's like you cannot go any further than that yeah yeah it's really bad it's really bad 278 00:32:06,740 --> 00:32:19,140 and the the comparison i made was actually to kind of um fast food and to like if you don't think 279 00:32:19,140 --> 00:32:24,900 about what you eat and if it's just about consuming calories and if it's just about kind of distracting 280 00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:31,380 yourself eating as a form of distraction then fast food is really appealing yeah totally and i think 281 00:32:31,380 --> 00:32:38,420 what the platform the platforms like again i think it comes back to monetization in a large 282 00:32:38,420 --> 00:32:45,620 to a large degree that's why some platforms try to push people into monthly subscriptions and so on 283 00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:50,660 because it is a different way of monetizing and i think it would be strictly better from a quality 284 00:32:50,660 --> 00:33:00,580 perspective um but if you don't do that you have to cater towards attention yeah and the best way to do it 285 00:33:01,380 --> 00:33:07,940 is by producing basically like lucid dreams i think what we're building is like lucid dreaming platforms 286 00:33:07,940 --> 00:33:14,500 where like that's what tick tock short form videos are it's like 10 second snippets 287 00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:23,140 of whatever you want to dream about yeah and it's maximally engaging so to speak or maximally again it's 288 00:33:23,140 --> 00:33:30,980 a virveci virvecian term hyper salient like you whatever appeals to you the most that's what will 289 00:33:30,980 --> 00:33:38,420 be shown to you yeah and if the algorithm doesn't know much about you it will send something your way 290 00:33:38,420 --> 00:33:43,780 that most people in your age bracket with your tastes and your gender and your browsing habits find 291 00:33:43,780 --> 00:33:49,620 appealing and then like after like two minutes of yes no scrolling you're locked in 292 00:33:49,620 --> 00:33:56,820 and it will it it's literally like a lucid dream and and it will be like that more and more as you 293 00:33:56,820 --> 00:34:02,740 know more ai generated stuff they will generate stuff on the fly for you oh 100 that's what they 294 00:34:02,740 --> 00:34:07,700 want to do no doubt i mean spokespeople already told us that much that's that's that's where they 295 00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:13,220 want to go i mean imagine if you are no longer constrained on what is the most addicting for this 296 00:34:13,220 --> 00:34:18,820 person for this moment to content that actually exists yeah you can just make it on the fly oh sure i mean 297 00:34:18,820 --> 00:34:24,340 porn already does that as far as i know that's like the the most i i think i think not even not 298 00:34:24,340 --> 00:34:32,340 even in the porn department but also in the like soft porn right like trending towards porn uh instagram 299 00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:40,740 kind of content it's i highly doubt that like the time has long passed where this stuff is real it used 300 00:34:40,740 --> 00:34:48,580 to be filters it used to be like you know photoshop and steroids and i'm pretty sure most of the stuff 301 00:34:48,580 --> 00:34:51,540 right now that most people consume is just straight up generated 302 00:34:51,540 --> 00:34:58,180 who's gonna give jobs to the porn stars now 303 00:34:58,180 --> 00:35:05,540 there will always be a market it's just like homegrown 304 00:35:05,540 --> 00:35:12,900 homegrown porn you know when when upstar came around for musicians was actually you actually have to go 305 00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:20,100 live and perform so for porn stars you know there might be some same idea you think so but i think 306 00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:26,660 the parito stuff points to an interesting reality and i think we talked about this in the past but it's 307 00:35:26,660 --> 00:35:35,300 worth repeating there is a large chunk of noser that is just um interested in and dealing with music 308 00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:42,020 yeah and that part really seems to work and there's of course like lots of crossover to the podcasting 2.0 309 00:35:42,020 --> 00:35:49,060 decentralized music kind of movement and so on but i think for those kind of segments it can really work 310 00:35:49,060 --> 00:35:58,580 like where um you you you have your kind of you fill your niche in some sense you have a little bit of a 311 00:35:58,580 --> 00:36:06,020 following and you make it really frictionless to build a community and to send value around basically 312 00:36:06,020 --> 00:36:14,580 i think that's kind of the main value proposition without without um without needing to self-censor i 313 00:36:14,580 --> 00:36:21,460 think that's kind of the main issue that lots of the platforms have where it's just like you have to 314 00:36:21,460 --> 00:36:28,980 always be wary of being deplatformed and it's like can i say that and like most of the youtube content 315 00:36:28,980 --> 00:36:34,980 that i watch still like every sentence is like has a little bleep in it somewhere because the people 316 00:36:34,980 --> 00:36:40,020 they have to self like they have to censor it otherwise the video will be demonetized right 317 00:36:40,020 --> 00:36:44,020 and like they like to swear and they will say you know and whatever and and talk 318 00:36:44,020 --> 00:36:48,980 about political topics and they have to like they were for example one guy was going through the 319 00:36:48,980 --> 00:36:54,900 epstein files and every every time he said you know like the rapist or even sex offender or something 320 00:36:54,900 --> 00:37:02,340 like that he had to bleep the words that's the state of youtube right yeah yeah that's really bad right 321 00:37:03,380 --> 00:37:10,340 and i think i think that's again i i think i think the internet needs a corner where 322 00:37:10,340 --> 00:37:13,380 you don't have to worry about this stuff too much 323 00:37:13,380 --> 00:37:21,620 the from from what i've seen and the conversations that i've had the the people are trying to make a 324 00:37:21,620 --> 00:37:27,940 living out of their content which is a such a insulting word it's content 325 00:37:27,940 --> 00:37:35,140 fuck that jesus we're producing content right now man this is content 326 00:37:35,140 --> 00:37:45,940 the their their issue is like top of mind is the distribution you know it's it's all about and that's 327 00:37:45,940 --> 00:37:51,940 that's kind of interesting because a lot of people that i that i've spoken with they arrive to the same 328 00:37:51,940 --> 00:37:58,980 conclusion that you mentioned briefly a while ago about paywalls and whatnot is if your content is 329 00:37:58,980 --> 00:38:05,540 behind a paywall no one will see it no one sees it yeah so no one reads you yeah so you don't want to 330 00:38:05,540 --> 00:38:10,580 artificially restrict the distribution of your content and that's what the twitch people figured out for 331 00:38:10,580 --> 00:38:16,820 example you know like it's everything is everywhere at all times and everything is re-shared and re-clipped 332 00:38:16,820 --> 00:38:21,780 and like re-uploaded to youtube and other things and so on and that's how how the content kind of 333 00:38:21,780 --> 00:38:27,860 distributes itself naturally and it's still like people still pay for it but they pay for something 334 00:38:27,860 --> 00:38:32,420 else right i would argue similar to only fans and other things you know where it's like you 335 00:38:32,420 --> 00:38:39,220 you actually you you i'm gonna stick with twitch otherwise it will just get out of hand but if you 336 00:38:39,220 --> 00:38:44,740 donate to someone on twitch like if you subscribe to someone on twitch you're not paying you're not 337 00:38:44,740 --> 00:38:51,940 buying the mp4 file you're not buying the video stream file you know what i mean you always had access 338 00:38:51,940 --> 00:38:57,220 to that you're buying something else and that's something that's something that i think most people in the 339 00:38:57,220 --> 00:39:02,900 bitcoin industry world and still don't get like at all yeah anyway i'm still ranting 340 00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:14,900 but yeah i think it a lot of it comes down from the fact that what everybody in and i'm going to 341 00:39:14,900 --> 00:39:19,940 stick to substack because that's the one that i know the best what everybody is trying to replicate 342 00:39:19,940 --> 00:39:26,580 on substack is the early adopters that have that are making a killing on substack of 343 00:39:26,580 --> 00:39:33,460 which there are like 20 yeah out of millions of writers yeah um and they're trying to replicate 344 00:39:33,460 --> 00:39:41,060 this model where you have hundreds of thousands of subscribers you have a insane income an insane 345 00:39:41,060 --> 00:39:51,540 uh mrr yeah and it's just by sheer numbers not everybody can have that a very very very small few can have 346 00:39:51,540 --> 00:40:02,340 that yeah um so they are all fighting for kind of like a dream it's it's it's um a pipe dream yeah but 347 00:40:02,340 --> 00:40:07,780 it's the same everywhere a very a very small percentage of all musicians make all the money a very small 348 00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:13,220 percentage of all movie stars make all the money a very small percentage of all movies make all the money 349 00:40:13,220 --> 00:40:18,340 you know and so on and so forth it's like it's the same everywhere take writers and so on it's like but 350 00:40:18,340 --> 00:40:24,180 but to me it's interesting the the fact that they are being sold that that dream of oh you can make 351 00:40:24,180 --> 00:40:29,940 as much money as this writer like basically that's what the when they are advertising that so and so is 352 00:40:29,940 --> 00:40:35,220 making this amount is you could also make this amount right like if you apply yourself you can make that 353 00:40:35,220 --> 00:40:42,020 that same same with only fans they're being sold a lie they're being sold a lie into a trap they're 354 00:40:42,020 --> 00:40:47,700 they're prostituting themselves for nothing because you're playing in a market that has that is has 355 00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:53,940 already been it's a winner takes most market where there is already a winner yeah and you're gonna bring 356 00:40:53,940 --> 00:41:00,660 all your effort and all your whatnot all your sweat and tears yeah into a place where basically you cannot 357 00:41:00,660 --> 00:41:05,140 win yeah basically and that's actually a good point because i think that's one thing that sub stack 358 00:41:05,140 --> 00:41:10,260 actually did right whereas the the main distribution channel at least in the beginning that was the 359 00:41:10,260 --> 00:41:16,500 case i'm not sure how it is now was email right i think what nostr allows you to do is to to be yourself 360 00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:21,540 find your niche just do the one thing like no one can be better at being you than you you know yeah 361 00:41:21,540 --> 00:41:27,860 and just kind of be yourself without risk of being deplatformed and you can actually build your 362 00:41:27,860 --> 00:41:32,820 digital empire for lack of a better word you know and and have people that actually follow you and 363 00:41:32,820 --> 00:41:37,700 are interested in the stuff you have to put out and you can form real connection and you can have real 364 00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:42,420 value flowing again without intermediaries and i think that's the value proposition it just takes a 365 00:41:42,420 --> 00:41:46,340 lot of time and it takes a lot of effort to build it out and and all those kind of things but you can 366 00:41:46,340 --> 00:41:51,060 actually do it in a way without ever getting rug pulled and that to me is the value proposition which 367 00:41:51,060 --> 00:41:56,500 of course coincidentally to me is also the value proposition of bitcoin right no rug pulls yeah like 368 00:41:56,500 --> 00:42:02,100 if you're getting rock pulled you rock pulled yourself which is definitely possible which happens 369 00:42:02,100 --> 00:42:09,860 no no no free lunch no free lunch that's why a very long time ago i wrote about like how in in the 370 00:42:09,860 --> 00:42:17,460 bitcoin world like responsibility is like programmed in like if you take bitcoin seriously and you you 371 00:42:17,460 --> 00:42:23,540 rearrange your life to live on the bitcoin standard for example you have to be responsible you like at least 372 00:42:23,540 --> 00:42:28,340 for your keys for your keys for example and those kind of things and in in a large like following up 373 00:42:28,340 --> 00:42:33,300 to that also you have to be you have to take your privacy more seriously you have to take your 374 00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:37,380 digital hygiene more seriously and so on and all of that is true for nostra as well like if you 375 00:42:37,380 --> 00:42:41,060 actually want to go down that route and build out 376 00:42:43,460 --> 00:42:48,740 i think that's why the overlap to the regenerative farmer community is so big because if you want to 377 00:42:48,740 --> 00:42:51,220 take charge of your life you actually have to go buy a farm 378 00:42:51,220 --> 00:42:59,060 buy a lot of plants you know grow your own food have you you know all those kind of things but i'm only 379 00:42:59,060 --> 00:43:04,260 half joking like i think i really think that that's why the overlap is so big because the same is true 380 00:43:05,060 --> 00:43:11,220 on like with your your your digital estate you know like you you will actually have to 381 00:43:11,220 --> 00:43:16,580 run your own relay you have to take care of your own key material you have to run your own node you 382 00:43:16,580 --> 00:43:20,580 have to take care of all those kind of things you know like you actually have to on the bitcoin side 383 00:43:20,580 --> 00:43:26,420 you know like you have to stamp your words in in steel and like make sure that they're held somewhere 384 00:43:26,420 --> 00:43:35,700 safely exactly and then and so on and so on and you'll have to upgrade over time all those kind of 385 00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:40,580 things you know and and i mean just looking at myself at my own like nostril infrastructure 386 00:43:40,580 --> 00:43:46,740 like i run multiple relays i i have multiple blossom servers and and like i have to take care of all 387 00:43:46,740 --> 00:43:55,220 this stuff just like you would have to you know like plow the field and milk the cows in the morning you 388 00:43:55,220 --> 00:44:00,740 know it's just like it's work but it's also rewarding in the sense that you at least know that's 389 00:44:00,740 --> 00:44:07,060 yours yeah and you're not you know just renting the youtube channel and i mean it always breaks my 390 00:44:07,060 --> 00:44:13,540 heart every time i see someone who has built a life around a certain platform for the last 10 15 years 391 00:44:13,540 --> 00:44:21,060 whatever and then by just some whatever sometimes it's just like straight up bureaucratic mistake or 392 00:44:21,060 --> 00:44:26,580 whatever they just get nuked off the planet and everything's gone like their whole library everything 393 00:44:26,580 --> 00:44:30,900 the whole output that they produce over the last 15 years completely gone no backups 394 00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:43,140 it's insane it's completely insane if only someone would have made t-shirts and stickers and so on that 395 00:44:43,140 --> 00:44:50,820 says the cloud is just someone else's computer if only well anyway anyway let's see let's see how it 396 00:44:50,820 --> 00:44:55,540 goes i mean again but again there is there's no free lunch in that sense like you it actually is work 397 00:44:55,540 --> 00:45:02,500 and it actually requires a certain amount of thought and care and responsibility to take care of your 398 00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:08,820 digital infrastructure and so on so i doubt that i'm only mentioning that because i doubt that 399 00:45:09,860 --> 00:45:18,260 the masses will ever do that maybe the markets will solve that and maybe you know like people enough 400 00:45:18,260 --> 00:45:26,580 people will be willing to pay for it in a sense and and i think it will get easier and easier to self-host and 401 00:45:26,580 --> 00:45:36,260 so on i think it will get easier and easier and and i think the i'm i'm a forever optimist i i think the 402 00:45:36,260 --> 00:45:45,060 the level of complacency that everybody has um like all these assumptions that we have on how people behave 403 00:45:45,060 --> 00:45:51,140 are coming down from an observation of the the current world of the of the fast food 404 00:45:51,140 --> 00:45:59,620 and we haven't even identified like that digitally we are all being served fast food like people like 405 00:45:59,620 --> 00:46:09,940 we know yeah most people most people haven't realized like it is it is the lack of awareness 406 00:46:09,940 --> 00:46:15,940 of where we're at it is and i think that complacency that we have oh it's in the cloud like all these 407 00:46:15,940 --> 00:46:23,220 things yeah in in one hand the tech will get better it will be easier to do all these things 408 00:46:23,220 --> 00:46:28,580 distribution will also come which you know brings like okay i'm doing all this work for a reach of like 409 00:46:28,580 --> 00:46:36,500 maybe 500 people will see what i'm writing like i think all these lines will converge in like we'll go 410 00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:46,180 in the right direction together um but i also think that people will will care more when they like 411 00:46:46,180 --> 00:46:53,060 you know like also 500 is a very respectable number you can imagine you can imagine imagine going up to a 412 00:46:53,060 --> 00:46:58,420 podium and there's like 500 people actually listening to you yeah that's a lot of people you know what i 413 00:46:58,420 --> 00:47:06,020 mean i i i also think the the whole like everything is completely out of whack right now because if 414 00:47:06,020 --> 00:47:12,180 you're not making like 10 million views you're you're a loser you know totally totally that's kind of 415 00:47:12,180 --> 00:47:19,540 of which 99 are bots yeah of course but but it's everything so out of whack where we're just 416 00:47:19,540 --> 00:47:27,940 it's i hope that we can return to a smaller more sane a world and i hope that nostr can help with that 417 00:47:27,940 --> 00:47:36,980 because you actually um i mean there's lots lots has been written about those kind of things in the past 418 00:47:36,980 --> 00:47:42,020 and there was this one book i there was actually a very well-known author but i i'm drawing a blank now 419 00:47:42,020 --> 00:47:47,620 but the one thousand yeah one thousand true fans kelly ah there you go kevin kelly right and 420 00:47:47,620 --> 00:47:55,860 there is a lot of truth in that that that's kind of that's the that's the right size you know what 421 00:47:55,860 --> 00:48:01,780 i mean you don't need 20 million true fans like that's that's completely that's that's like you're 422 00:48:01,780 --> 00:48:10,020 missing the mark by so much but but but i think the the problem is that because all content going back 423 00:48:10,020 --> 00:48:15,780 all content is being compared and weight under the same scale yeah you you cannot have a thousand 424 00:48:15,780 --> 00:48:20,260 true fans like no no you don't have 20 million or you have nothing on the bright side that's what 425 00:48:20,260 --> 00:48:25,140 makes all and in the long run will make all the platforms kind of vanish and crumble like because 426 00:48:25,140 --> 00:48:31,940 they it's it it turns itself into a unified slop machine yeah you know it's it's literally we're 427 00:48:31,940 --> 00:48:37,140 moving from the slot machines of social media to the slot machines of ai and ai generated content 428 00:48:37,780 --> 00:48:42,020 and everyone will have to produce the same slop just like all the fast food chains had to produce 429 00:48:42,020 --> 00:48:48,900 the same fast food equally equally cheaply and and like the the only thing that that's missing from 430 00:48:48,900 --> 00:48:57,220 the food is nutrition you know like taste is there calories it's great but like health and nutrition 431 00:48:57,220 --> 00:49:01,060 that's like no nowhere to be found but here's what i i've been making this point 432 00:49:01,860 --> 00:49:09,860 prior in private conversations a lot but look at the health industry like fast it came as a as a byproduct 433 00:49:09,860 --> 00:49:19,460 of noticing uh fast food and it is a real huge um industry with a lot of people that create that kind 434 00:49:19,460 --> 00:49:25,940 of product there's mcdonald's still exists yeah sure but there are many many many companies building 435 00:49:25,940 --> 00:49:33,940 products for the health conscious people yeah and i think for digital health um we don't have that much 436 00:49:33,940 --> 00:49:41,540 yet yeah yeah i think there's an insane demand yeah i go to subreddits that have nothing to do with tech 437 00:49:41,540 --> 00:49:48,180 and you can notice the appeal and and for for for the nostalgia of a lot of these products 438 00:49:48,980 --> 00:49:57,460 and i think one thing that like you and me and i think people in our circles we we tend to disregard 439 00:49:57,460 --> 00:50:02,260 the nostalgia for the geocities and like the the look and feel of the current 17-year-old product 440 00:50:02,260 --> 00:50:09,700 uh website that that we think oh it's because we are this age you know and we look back but people 441 00:50:09,700 --> 00:50:18,100 that are young they they don't they don't um they don't mention by name that nostalgia but they do crave 442 00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:27,860 the products that are not just influencer slop yeah like real connections yeah so i think that there's 443 00:50:27,860 --> 00:50:34,260 very young people that are also drawn towards like gramophones and like very old style like vinyl 444 00:50:34,260 --> 00:50:39,140 players and so on yes uh that's kind of that's a fair comparison right where it's like they're not 445 00:50:39,140 --> 00:50:44,820 from that era but they still prefer they prefer that to like uh i don't know like an itunes subscription 446 00:50:44,820 --> 00:50:51,620 and and you don't have to replace twitter or tick tock oh like you don't have by the way fun fact 447 00:50:51,620 --> 00:50:55,940 the path we're walking right now can you see here that's the tracks yeah that's from the that's from 448 00:50:55,940 --> 00:51:01,860 the romans that's like three thousand years old no way that's from roman cars being being wow 449 00:51:01,860 --> 00:51:07,140 yeah they went this path a lot as you can tell it's like you know like a meter deep in terms of 450 00:51:07,780 --> 00:51:13,460 that's wow that's amazing yeah yeah that's amazing the the path we're walking is called the roman path 451 00:51:13,460 --> 00:51:17,540 i thought you were going to say like second world war but it's a little bit older no no it's very 452 00:51:17,540 --> 00:51:25,860 very old see and we crave it yeah yeah we're like wow that's amazing look at look at the look and feel 453 00:51:25,860 --> 00:51:28,260 look at the look and feel look at the ux of that thing 454 00:51:30,740 --> 00:51:34,660 it's great it worked three thousand years ago it still works today that's what we're trying 455 00:51:34,660 --> 00:51:39,460 to build right like something that still works like in in many many years and totally from now 456 00:51:39,460 --> 00:51:46,500 totally yeah i mean that's that's why i switched my whole online identity to nostril only like a long 457 00:51:46,500 --> 00:51:54,020 while ago because i realized okay like this thing has legs and it will still work like you know 30 years 458 00:51:54,020 --> 00:51:59,940 from now even if it means i'm running the only relay that the only relay that exists right like i can 459 00:51:59,940 --> 00:52:07,220 just i can just make it work indefinitely and you can't say the same thing about whatever geocities 460 00:52:07,220 --> 00:52:12,420 youtube what have you you know substack and everything else and and i think that's a big appeal in the 461 00:52:12,420 --> 00:52:20,180 sense of if you if you actually understand how it works you can just that's also why my my personal 462 00:52:20,180 --> 00:52:25,940 home page for example it's just the static html and it's just like it's jackal it's a jackal site 463 00:52:25,940 --> 00:52:33,060 right and it's just generated static html and the reason why i built it this way is not only because 464 00:52:33,060 --> 00:52:39,780 i hate javascript and all the frameworks but i like i know it's about to last it's like just i slap a 465 00:52:39,780 --> 00:52:45,060 whatever web server on it and it's just it's it's bound to work and i think we 466 00:52:47,380 --> 00:52:53,300 also outside of the nostril community to your point there's lots of people that crave that and 467 00:52:53,300 --> 00:52:57,060 want to have that and like we talked a lot about the self-hosting community right the local first 468 00:52:57,060 --> 00:53:02,820 people and so on and but there's also i think what we are again making the comparison to fast food and 469 00:53:02,820 --> 00:53:06,820 those kind of things there's a lot of people right now that are quitting everything and they're straight 470 00:53:06,820 --> 00:53:12,740 up fasting yeah yeah totally totally food you can't do that by the way with digital stuff you can actually 471 00:53:12,740 --> 00:53:19,060 do it like you can um you know like you can actually detox massively but i'm i'm still a technologist at 472 00:53:19,060 --> 00:53:25,780 heart i want to i want to have technology i just don't want the technology to rape me and spy on me 473 00:53:25,780 --> 00:53:31,700 and spit in my face and just telling me that it's raining right it's like that's but that's the current 474 00:53:31,700 --> 00:53:38,820 state of technology and i i think there is a better way and i think the nostril has a big role to play in 475 00:53:38,820 --> 00:53:45,460 it so that would be my summary i guess yeah i mean if you look at like the email marketing people like 476 00:53:45,460 --> 00:53:52,820 infoproduct people they are very heavy on on email and they like people like ben settle like they say 477 00:53:52,820 --> 00:53:59,140 it's there yeah because you actually own the email list yeah that's the only reason it's the only 478 00:53:59,140 --> 00:54:06,900 reason it literally it's the only reason and what they do is spend literally zero minutes on social 479 00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:11,380 media don't even have a social media because yeah the it's it doesn't matter if you have 10 million 480 00:54:11,380 --> 00:54:17,220 followers they can be taken away like that only take people to your email list is the final destination 481 00:54:17,220 --> 00:54:22,580 yeah everything else is a funnel for the email exactly and i think for people like that that have that 482 00:54:22,580 --> 00:54:27,060 point of view you go in with a nostril pitch oh no nostril is different blah blah and they will say 483 00:54:27,060 --> 00:54:33,060 you i've been burned before yeah sure i mean same with bitcoin right same thing same thing exactly exactly 484 00:54:33,060 --> 00:54:38,900 the same thing yeah use use that use the magic internet money and and you know everything will 485 00:54:38,900 --> 00:54:46,260 work flawlessly and you'll be rich over time i was i was um i was i was listening to uh you probably 486 00:54:46,260 --> 00:54:52,340 know who nick fuentes is oh well by yeah i didn't know before either yeah i wouldn't call myself 487 00:54:52,340 --> 00:54:58,580 a nick fuentes expert but i know i'm a nick fuentes connoisseur now i i i know the name i know some 488 00:54:58,580 --> 00:55:04,740 memes that's about it so so apparently the guy was um was like uh the platform from like paypal and 489 00:55:04,740 --> 00:55:09,620 this and whatnot of course like four or five years ago he has outlandish uh political opinions yeah 490 00:55:10,820 --> 00:55:22,580 you you i mean i guess moderate uh and um and and the guy he disbeliefs on everything is a conspiracy 491 00:55:22,580 --> 00:55:29,780 everything is like the cia out to get you and whatnot yeah he got he went for like um like high risk uh 492 00:55:29,780 --> 00:55:35,860 payment credit card processors and whatnot nobody would take the guy yeah and he ended up on bitcoin yeah and 493 00:55:35,860 --> 00:55:44,420 he fucking hate me it's a total scam but for like now he i think he has a ca processor yeah yeah like the 494 00:55:44,420 --> 00:55:50,740 whole everything you know but the guy was using it because it was like the only thing to work like 495 00:55:50,740 --> 00:55:56,580 he would immediately sell it i'm guessing he would immediately sell it for sure but but he was 496 00:55:56,580 --> 00:56:02,580 using the thing because he was cornered into it yeah yeah i think nostr will have a similar fate for 497 00:56:02,580 --> 00:56:09,060 for for for a couple of people where it's kind of the the the the final the the last bastion the 498 00:56:09,060 --> 00:56:15,300 last thing that works the last tool that works where you can actually yeah i it's actually surprising 499 00:56:15,300 --> 00:56:23,140 to me that we didn't get any um there aren't any people on nostr that i know of that were 500 00:56:23,140 --> 00:56:28,660 where they platformed everywhere else i mean i think before they join nostr they will start their own 501 00:56:28,660 --> 00:56:37,460 social network that has been the pattern that i observed yeah i i think them it's a bit because 502 00:56:37,460 --> 00:56:43,780 like just the timing of how what happened with elon and twitter and like oh no everybody's a free 503 00:56:43,780 --> 00:56:50,900 uh free speech blue sky as well what i mean lots of people went to blue sky for you know like oh that's 504 00:56:50,900 --> 00:56:56,740 the actual green pasture yeah yeah yeah that's the actual free speech zone yeah for the liberals that 505 00:56:56,740 --> 00:57:05,700 but but it's interesting like one of the one of the the interesting things that people um point to 506 00:57:05,700 --> 00:57:15,140 with blue sky is that um is that it censors right and one of the the the reasons why like i think the 507 00:57:15,140 --> 00:57:19,300 second reason why people leave substack the most is that they don't censor enough 508 00:57:19,300 --> 00:57:27,060 oh yeah really how how so like explain that more it's like there's atrocious stuff on substack and 509 00:57:27,060 --> 00:57:33,300 that's why they leave substack is like um substack it's kind of like the the pitch is a bit like rumbly 510 00:57:33,300 --> 00:57:41,060 you know ish in the sense of oh you can come in you own your audience and whatnot um and it's kind of like 511 00:57:41,060 --> 00:57:47,620 free speech uh adjacent it's like they are positioning themselves obviously there's a door to knock so 512 00:57:47,620 --> 00:57:55,700 obviously that will not hold but they they did uh allow like i don't know like what the left calls 513 00:57:55,700 --> 00:58:01,860 neo-nazi content it might be someone that said something pro-trump or something like that um so a lot 514 00:58:01,860 --> 00:58:08,420 of people started leaving because of that sighting they are allowing this hate speech and whatnot in 515 00:58:08,420 --> 00:58:13,300 the platform so i'm going to patreon you know a lot of people are leaving towards patrons and stuff 516 00:58:13,300 --> 00:58:21,620 like that it's the second most popular reason interesting yeah um which i don't know i i think 517 00:58:21,620 --> 00:58:24,660 that's also something that is quite interesting about noster that 518 00:58:24,900 --> 00:58:33,300 it's not one big substack yeah it's your relay you don't you don't say i'm gonna leave email just 519 00:58:33,300 --> 00:58:39,380 because someone sent a bad email exactly you don't have but i think i think people didn't don't aren't 520 00:58:39,380 --> 00:58:44,740 at the point yet to understand oster as a protocol and i think this will take time but i think because 521 00:58:44,740 --> 00:58:50,180 there's some there's some like like blue skype role plays as a protocol basically but the reason i think 522 00:58:50,180 --> 00:58:55,700 the reason why people don't perceive it that way is because we are not building it that way you turn 523 00:58:55,700 --> 00:59:01,860 primal yeah there's one experience yeah you join whatever and it's like this one experience and 524 00:59:01,860 --> 00:59:08,660 sure if you're like very technically inclined you can select your relays and you can be like on the tie 525 00:59:08,660 --> 00:59:15,940 noster it's it's not the sign in that way like the products the protocol absolutely allows for that 526 00:59:15,940 --> 00:59:22,020 but none of the applications really yeah are going for this is more like the like the way i'm seeing 527 00:59:22,020 --> 00:59:28,500 it is the relay is like a magazine and you subscribe to a magazine you don't quit magazines 528 00:59:28,500 --> 00:59:35,140 because there's a magazine that you don't like you just don't read the magazine yeah sit but to be 529 00:59:35,140 --> 00:59:41,700 fair noster isn't it doesn't work like that yet like most relays have most of the content right there's 530 00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:50,180 like there's no again and i think that it's also back to back to the of the products back to the i 531 00:59:50,180 --> 00:59:55,380 agree i agree but also back to the like it's a fool's errand to try to box content in the content 532 00:59:55,380 --> 00:59:58,180 especially viral content will proliferate across relays 533 00:59:58,180 --> 01:00:05,860 i i don't agree with that no no no no because you can simply just white list who can write on the 534 01:00:05,860 --> 01:00:10,500 sure but i'll just hit rebroadcast and i want this to the most really simply doesn't allow you like 535 01:00:10,500 --> 01:00:16,260 these parts to publish my relay only allows these 200 parties to publish yeah yeah sure no i just mean 536 01:00:16,260 --> 01:00:22,100 like if something is viral one of the 200 will will republish it to your relay that's my point yeah 537 01:00:22,100 --> 01:00:28,340 but if you like like copy and paste and whatnot i think that's perfectly fine yeah yeah like with a 538 01:00:28,340 --> 01:00:34,100 with a retweet or like a quote tweet or whatever so for example on the on the the the agoda relay so 539 01:00:34,100 --> 01:00:38,820 each each region i i do agree sorry to interrupt but i do agree with your point because i do have personal 540 01:00:38,820 --> 01:00:46,260 relays and that's a very small subset of the whole nostril burst is on that relay because it's just for 541 01:00:46,260 --> 01:00:54,340 my personal backup right yeah and i think like relay fits it's it's what's interesting yeah it's why you 542 01:00:54,340 --> 01:01:02,260 you subscribe like and you can select select five relays which in your mind yeah they they are the same 543 01:01:02,260 --> 01:01:07,540 kind of thing yeah and i think in the long run nostril will actually be something else entirely i mean 544 01:01:07,540 --> 01:01:12,180 it obviously started as a twitter clone but i think the other thing that was successful in terms 545 01:01:12,180 --> 01:01:18,340 of grouping was reddit with subreddits yeah and i think i think we'll have a mix in the sense of you 546 01:01:18,340 --> 01:01:24,260 you will follow relay and you will have like relay based feeds and also you know algo based feeds and 547 01:01:24,260 --> 01:01:34,740 and so on and so on but um yeah no it's it's it will just still take time to to to play out because 548 01:01:34,740 --> 01:01:40,900 most people i think the reason why i mentioned that before is like if you if you talk to 549 01:01:42,820 --> 01:01:50,580 i don't talk to people as you know i hate people fuck people man but if you if you read online and 550 01:01:50,580 --> 01:01:56,500 it's like you you read on hecka news you read on reddit you read on whatever blue sky and whatever 551 01:01:56,500 --> 01:02:01,460 in other networks so to speak what they talk what they say about nostril is like ah it's just like 552 01:02:01,460 --> 01:02:07,620 this app it's this app for like you know crypto people crypto people it's this crypto app isn't 553 01:02:07,620 --> 01:02:11,940 this the crypto app you know like and i think that's where the level of understanding is for 554 01:02:11,940 --> 01:02:18,980 most people we're not at the hey email is actually a protocol kind of stage yet because i'm sure in 555 01:02:18,980 --> 01:02:23,700 the beginning it was like at&t or whatever and i don't know what you know like the email was such 556 01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:28,740 a new thing people were not able to wrap their head around it it was like one product by one company 557 01:02:28,740 --> 01:02:33,780 basically it's what i'm trying to say right and i think that's where we at in the development cycle 558 01:02:33,780 --> 01:02:41,940 of nostril like kind of socially speaking yeah but but i think the way we are designing products is 559 01:02:41,940 --> 01:02:50,980 playing on that hand like like piling on on that perception of you to treat relays in this generic 560 01:02:50,980 --> 01:03:02,180 way you know um and not like i i i see say for example you wanted to use let's say amethyst for 561 01:03:02,180 --> 01:03:09,940 example to use nostril in this way it it's it's it's in this like magazine type of way in this the 562 01:03:09,940 --> 01:03:18,820 release is like this this group of like content or community or group like it's some type of abstract 563 01:03:18,820 --> 01:03:24,980 curation yeah there's very few clients to do that there's jumble right so hard and there's like two 564 01:03:24,980 --> 01:03:32,900 more there's like a few but but but even even the experience itself it's kind of weird it's kind of weird 565 01:03:32,900 --> 01:03:40,340 um and and again it's it's a it's a a self-fulfilling prophecy it's hard to use nostril in this way 566 01:03:40,340 --> 01:03:46,420 so you end up using the the the the relays are as this generic content bucket um 567 01:03:48,260 --> 01:03:53,700 and yeah i think there's there is a lot of work that we but but but i think we need to break with 568 01:03:53,700 --> 01:03:58,420 this paradigm of this is how we like nostril clients work they they look like twitter you know 569 01:03:58,420 --> 01:04:04,340 like this is kind of experience i think subreddit is a much more uh compelling way of thinking about 570 01:04:04,340 --> 01:04:10,180 how to build up a client i think it's also it's it it will depend on your form factor in the sense of 571 01:04:10,180 --> 01:04:14,820 like the mobile clients will look very different than desktop clients and this is already emerging this is 572 01:04:14,820 --> 01:04:21,780 already happening yeah and there there is interesting clients i mean uh grimoire for example um is 573 01:04:21,780 --> 01:04:29,780 there's all these clients now that are kind of desktop power user clients and i i myself for 574 01:04:29,780 --> 01:04:33,700 example i use many different nostril clients and they're all kind of special purpose or many of them 575 01:04:33,700 --> 01:04:40,020 are special purpose i still use amethyst as my my main driver like my daily driver which is of course 576 01:04:40,020 --> 01:04:45,620 comical because it's the everything client basically and here i am talking about special purpose clients 577 01:04:45,620 --> 01:04:56,580 no but but i'm serious i'm i'm what always what always um yeah there you go it can be pretty if if 578 01:04:56,580 --> 01:05:02,180 if you're not depressed it's a very pretty place if you are already depressed you're gonna have a bad time 579 01:05:02,180 --> 01:05:08,020 here you're depressed the environment yeah you're right yeah yeah next six months just just kill 580 01:05:08,020 --> 01:05:13,300 yourself do it get it over right now it's like you won't see the sunlight for many months just just 581 01:05:13,300 --> 01:05:20,180 just get it done no but i there is a client written by a japanese guy i can't pronounce the name like 582 01:05:20,180 --> 01:05:26,100 at all it has a little it has it sounds something like it it has a little postage stamp in the top left 583 01:05:26,100 --> 01:05:31,940 and the only purpose is is to send a kind one note and it shows nothing else it's an empty text field 584 01:05:31,940 --> 01:05:36,660 right yeah and it does things really well with like also posting images follow upload and so on 585 01:05:36,660 --> 01:05:41,220 and many times i just want to write something and i don't want to see anything else right yeah because 586 01:05:41,220 --> 01:05:47,140 if i open any client i'll be in the feed yeah and i'll see something i'm immediately distracted you 587 01:05:47,140 --> 01:05:52,820 know and and so i have this as uh one of my um i have this as my my home page basically like i 588 01:05:52,820 --> 01:05:57,140 open up my browser and this thing is in one of the taps i have like three or four taps that open up 589 01:05:57,140 --> 01:06:00,340 and that's one of them because if i want to post something that's on my mind i'm just going to go 590 01:06:00,340 --> 01:06:06,580 ahead and hit post i'm just going to send it not even looking at nostra basically right and i mean 591 01:06:06,580 --> 01:06:13,460 and there's there's a bunch of other special purpose clients that i think are are are interesting 592 01:06:13,460 --> 01:06:20,420 like the i don't know like then we come back to like what is another client but again me posting 593 01:06:20,420 --> 01:06:25,300 stuff for example like this recording right now if i say some magic words there it's automatically 594 01:06:25,300 --> 01:06:31,380 posted to an oster and then caster which is obviously you know an oster client that transforms 595 01:06:31,380 --> 01:06:37,780 an oster feed into an rss feed picks it up and pushes it out as an rss feed and all this is like 596 01:06:37,780 --> 01:06:42,980 special purpose it's not very user-facing but it's like special purpose clients do exist 597 01:06:42,980 --> 01:06:49,700 this kind of absolutely no no no oh another one my the search that i built and also also boris like i 598 01:06:49,700 --> 01:06:55,220 i keep a close like one of the tabs that opens up in my browser it's like the ant search for most 599 01:06:55,220 --> 01:06:59,940 recent highlights what people have highlighted and i always every single day i discover one or two 600 01:06:59,940 --> 01:07:05,380 interesting articles this way and and like all those kind of little things it's it's a read-only 601 01:07:05,380 --> 01:07:09,220 client like it's ants can't do shit it's just like you know it's just doing search 602 01:07:09,220 --> 01:07:20,580 no no no i i mean of course i absolutely agree with that and i think these special purposes clients 603 01:07:20,580 --> 01:07:28,260 it's endless design space yeah but you have a point i mean there's primal and there is uh you know 604 01:07:28,260 --> 01:07:35,300 there's all these products so to speak there's primal amethyst damas and so on and that's if 605 01:07:35,300 --> 01:07:40,180 if we're being honest that's like for most people that's the first touch that's what nostrils yeah for 606 01:07:40,180 --> 01:07:45,780 most people yeah and they don't make the switch to another client but i think i i think right now 607 01:07:45,780 --> 01:07:48,820 that's i think that's also fine because probably like 10 of them do 608 01:07:48,820 --> 01:07:54,580 it's very similar to bitcoin right like most people that get into bitcoin don't stay with bitcoin 609 01:07:54,580 --> 01:08:00,260 and they will get into shit coining or they're fiat maxis and you know you you will we'll have to live 610 01:08:00,260 --> 01:08:09,700 with that i guess yeah and i think i think we'll find i'm still very hopeful in the sense of 611 01:08:09,700 --> 01:08:13,700 i realized that was all very pessimistic talk from my side 612 01:08:20,420 --> 01:08:26,420 no that's fine i still think we're fine i still think like on the positive side i'm i'm actually 613 01:08:26,420 --> 01:08:31,940 amazed about how well things work yeah it's probably because there's very few people 614 01:08:31,940 --> 01:08:40,660 no but no but i really mean it like the even stuff that came out of sovereign engineering 615 01:08:40,660 --> 01:08:46,260 it's amazing to me how well this stuff works yeah like i use blossom every single day without thinking 616 01:08:46,260 --> 01:08:50,820 about it without anything it's just one more tool and i and i see it absolutely everywhere it's 617 01:08:50,820 --> 01:08:55,700 integrated everywhere and it's like most of the links are blossom links and yeah and and just kind of 618 01:08:55,700 --> 01:09:03,460 how buggy nosto was in the beginning it's amazing like like i think i told this in the past i told it in 619 01:09:03,460 --> 01:09:08,500 in one of the conversations it came up like it's my go-to method to see if i'm online or not 620 01:09:09,220 --> 01:09:14,820 it's like i i you know i launched my my nosto client and i refresh because i immediate i can 621 01:09:14,820 --> 01:09:19,380 immediately tell like if new stuff is streaming in and coming in then i i know i'm on if i'm offline 622 01:09:19,380 --> 01:09:24,900 it still kind of works but i only see my stuff that i just recently posted right which is great like 623 01:09:24,900 --> 01:09:31,140 it's fantastic you're online-ish yeah exactly and and just like all the stuff that you've been working on 624 01:09:31,140 --> 01:09:37,140 and just nip 60 nip 61 and so on it really really works like it's all the stuff really works and and just 625 01:09:37,140 --> 01:09:43,460 kind of the clients became more polished and like even video and shit works i i think we've been on 626 01:09:43,460 --> 01:09:51,220 this like professionalizing mode in the past six months nine months that where there is a lot of 627 01:09:51,220 --> 01:10:00,500 very solid uh very solid frameworks very solid relays like i think we're in technically we're in very 628 01:10:00,500 --> 01:10:04,820 good shape yeah okay except my brother i'm gonna die 629 01:10:04,820 --> 01:10:13,940 all right any last words before you take a piss no we're not gonna record this i i can only do one thing 630 01:10:13,940 --> 01:10:18,820 thanks for indulging me oh thanks for the drink yeah 631 01:10:18,820 --> 01:10:22,820 let's see if we can we let's see if we can draw this to a close 632 01:10:22,820 --> 01:10:26,580 and yeah we'll have to we'll have to to do the other thing another time 633 01:10:26,580 --> 01:10:31,220 but for now it was just a walk and a recording which is very which is great it was very nice all right 634 01:10:31,220 --> 01:10:35,540 all right we managed