Yes, no, maybe.
You clipped the beard.
Oh my god.
That's great.
What a great way to start the day.
With pain.
It's very stoic.
Yeah.
All right.
Wait, no, this is very annoying.
Me?
No, no, no.
You put it down and it works.
I don't know.
I'm sure if it works.
We'll see.
Last time you had it like that as well.
We have to be okay with it being shitty.
Yeah, like this.
I think that's good.
Who knows.
We'll learn.
We'll see.
So I told you I have a plan.
Yeah, a man with a plan.
I'm scared and excited at the same time.
So the meta theme seems to be to not tell people what to do, but to kind of.
Well, it's not for script either.
We're not telling people what to do.
No, that's what I mean.
We're not.
But putting a finger on the things that we think are misguided in some sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, again, like we saw a lot of stuff, worked with a lot of devs, had lots of these conversations off the record and so on.
And so the main thing what we discussed in the first one was people are like super afraid just to, I don't know, think out in the open, build out in the open, ship the things that they have and so on.
And that's that's something that that really grinds my gears because there's so much cool stuff that's just on some hard disk somewhere.
And people are kind of too embarrassed or too ashamed to push it out and so on.
And it's like I've seen this multiple times when someone built something really cool and it's just it's not on a repo somewhere.
No one knows that this exists.
And then the guy loses interest and and it would have been useful.
It would have been useful to me personally and so on.
And it's just not shipped.
It's not like just just kind of create repo, push it out.
That's that's all like no one cares that your code is ugly and things are not clean up.
Literally no one cares.
So, yeah, I mean, not to start within the first minute minute with the B word, but the B word.
But the Bitcoin first version could have been like that.
It could have been.
This sucks.
I'm not going to release this.
I'm going to be so ashamed if I release this.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, wow.
It's windy.
It's really windy.
Jesus.
That's got to be that's going to be interesting.
No, well, the tunnel will fix it.
The tunnel will fix the wind and then we'll see how it goes.
Okay.
I mean, now now we're going to know how it is if there's like really strong winds while we're walking.
Yeah.
I mean, as everyone knows now, this is just another Bitcoin podcast.
So I would encourage everyone to.
It's the Bitcoin Blossom podcast.
We are in a very unique niche.
It doesn't get more niche than that.
But yeah, look at the actually first released version of the Bitcoin code.
It's like insane.
It's insane.
It's like it's it's spaghetti code main dot CPP like a couple of hundred lines.
There's like a big poker game.
Exactly.
A big poker client in there and like all it's all over the place.
So, yeah.
And and and people defy Satoshi, you know, and he sent even earlier versions around before that,
you know, like in he did it right.
He's just like, hey, look, I built this ugly thing, send it to some people and then pushed it out.
So fantastic.
It's shit.
What do you think?
Exactly.
So, yeah.
And the second one was that there is no global, like one of the misconceptions that people have
and that we saw people run into.
They try to fix this problem.
They try to build a global state, which, of course, is what Satoshi managed.
But people, you know, we have to mention it as a Bitcoin podcast.
And so what I want to spring on you, what my plan is for today.
And this will lead to probably also like EVMs and Nutsubs and many other things.
But it's I think one of the main misconceptions that people still have both on the Bitcoin side,
but especially in the Nostra side is that you can own data.
Oh, yeah.
And I see it like at least once a week.
Someone is like it's and I just saw the book again with like read, write, own.
You know?
Yeah.
It's like the, you know, the new paradigm is that you own your data and you own your online identity and so on.
And I think one of the things that we had that we wrote down one day was like, you can't own public data.
I would even go as far as to say data ownership is a complete lie.
You can't own data.
So I don't know.
Can you can you own the number three?
Discuss.
Yeah, I think it's a confusion with the idea of controlling the data and owning the data.
Yeah.
What does it mean to own something?
Yeah.
In the first place.
Yeah.
I don't know.
What does it mean to own something?
Yeah.
I don't know.
What does it mean to own something in meat space?
Like, what does it mean if you own a chair?
I mean, within.
What's the, what's the phrase?
If you have something.
Possession.
Yeah.
That one.
Yeah.
But that means that you can, you can dictate what happens to it is I guess what it means.
I guess in that sense, I mean, at the very, at the very base.
You control it.
At the very base of things.
Um, it's always about the violence, right?
Like, what can you defend?
So, if I, if you.
That's a good, that's a good point.
That's a good frame.
If I have this chair, um, and you can, for whatever reason, take it away.
Who owns it?
Right?
Uh, that's why, where the state comes from, you know, like the idea of the state comes,
uh, into this paradigm of, um, we are going to externalize the violence.
So that someone will.
To resolve ownership disputes.
Yeah.
Exactly.
But for data, you don't like, I think data is a, is a very special because you can defend
it in a way that doesn't involve, um, violence because you can secure it with, via private
keys and then how you manage the private keys is, which are.
Then again, that's, can you own a private key?
I would argue, no, like I don't, I don't.
You can control it.
You, you can, you can have exclusive knowledge of a secret.
Yes.
And that simulates ownership.
Yes.
And that's the best we can do.
Yeah.
And I think the whole confusion around, you know, what it means to own data, what it means
to, I don't know, own your NASA profile or own whatever.
It stems from that that people, I think all that, I mean, we keep, we keep hitting the
same topics.
I kind of hate myself for bringing it up again, but the NFT people, that's what they are confused
about.
You can't actually own a JPEG.
You can't own anything that is for public consumption ever.
It's like the best you can do is that you have exclusive, exclusive knowledge of something.
That's the best you can do in the world of data.
And data is information and information is like the number three and the number three is
like an idea and you can't really own an idea.
Yeah.
It's just like, it's in some sense, all that Bitcoin trying to do is like simulate ownership.
But I think we have all these, it's tunnel time, by the way, in case you don't do it.
All right.
Readly apparent.
The wind is gone.
The echo is here.
No, but I think what's interesting is that Bitcoin, but cryptography in general gives us
tools to make this idea of defending a secret more robust, gives us more tooling, basically.
Like a multi-sig, for example, is a good example that, you know, you need to...
Oh, absolutely.
Pine Logs as well.
It's a very novel concept.
Yeah, exactly.
Or Shamir Sharding.
These are tools that allow us to manage a secret and keep a secret in a more robust
way.
It's still a secret.
It's a different...
It's, historically speaking, the guy with the longer stick one.
Yeah.
When it comes to ownership and when it comes to defending property, historically speaking,
violence always won.
What's new about cryptography is violence doesn't win.
You can't...
I mean, there was...
Was it Apple Bomb or was it even...
I don't know who said it, but no amount of violence will ever solve a math problem.
And that's what's novel about it.
And that's what the whole, like, sovereign individual thesis is about and all those kind
of things.
I mean, at the end of the day, the key...
Unless you burn the key, the key is still somewhere...
Yeah, but you can also not provably burn it, right?
Yes.
And it relates to a lot of the confusions, again, on the notion side.
It's like, you can't really delete your profile.
Yes.
For example.
We just merged Nib62, which is this...
I know.
Make-believe.
Yeah, yeah.
It's make-believe, like, the profile is gone.
Yes.
But if you still have a copy of the private key somewhere, you can start signing events
again and just pushing them out.
Yeah, the idea is that there is this one event that, regardless of the time of the event
or anything like that, you can take a round and it's an instruction, you know, if the
signature matches...
Yeah, to ignore the profile.
It's an instruction to the relays to delete everything, basically.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it's completely make-believe.
Yeah, it's make-believe.
And it's also kind of bad, I think, in some sense, because what if someone takes over your
account?
It's like, what if you get hacked?
What if someone controls your private key that you don't want...
Oh, I'm a firm believer in burning the ship.
If your NSEC is compromised, leak the NSEC.
Yeah, no, but...
Because it's a complete destroyer, because we don't have time in Noster.
Noster cannot tell time.
Yeah.
Once the key is burned, you can rewrite anything, you can delete, you can do whatever, right?
Yeah.
So, if you leak the key, the whole history of that key is destroyed.
Because everything could have been forged.
Yeah.
No, it's...
But that's also...
It relates to the misconception about the nature of data itself.
You just spoke about the destroying of a key and the destruction of data and all those
kind of things that we speak about deleting the data and so on.
And it's kind of impossible.
Yeah, no, no.
Yeah, I agree.
You can't prove deletion.
Like, you can destroy a chair.
You can provably destroy a chair.
Like, there's a chair, there's one chair, and you take a sledgehammer, and you destroy the
chair, and the chair is gone.
You have to have tears.
Yeah, exactly.
And data works very, very differently.
Yes.
Yes, you can destroy data.
Like, if there's only...
If you know for sure that there's only one copy of the data, and you destroy the medium
that holds it, then the data's gone.
Okay, fair enough, fair enough.
But most data, and especially in a networked world, it doesn't work like this.
Yeah.
Like, computers...
I mean, I spoke about this and wrote about this, like, so many times, I feel like a broken
record.
But it's computers are copying machines.
If you transfer something, you copy it, period.
You cannot move data.
Yeah.
You can only copy it and delete it.
And that's why in a networked online environment, it's so hard to speak about any deletion.
It's like, it's all based on trust.
Yeah, it's all...
It's like, Pinky promised I deleted the thing.
Yeah, it's all synthetic deletions.
Yeah.
It's not really what we mean by deletion.
It's just like a similar concept, but it's not real.
Exactly.
And all the things we talk about are kind of like that.
And that's what we touched on when we first talked, I think.
It's like, our metaphors and the things we have, the memes, so to speak, that we have
a lot of stuff, they all break down because they're all very inaccurate.
And I feel like we need new, clearer mental pictures of it.
I mean, files and folders are another example.
It's completely made up.
It's like, what is a folder?
It's like, where does it come from?
Or like the icons on the desktop or all those kind of things.
I mean, there are these great examples where it's like, no one knows anymore.
Like the kids don't know why the save button had a disc on it.
It's weird, like, quadratically shaped thing, whatever.
No one knows.
But that's just how it works.
And that's, we also talked about, you know, like our, the concept of distributed cognition,
where it's like, you didn't come up with this stuff.
Just like we didn't come up with English, you know?
Yeah.
English works like this.
And there's a reason why we have these words and use these words.
And it's all very complex.
You don't understand it.
No one really understands English.
English is way smarter than every single individual that speaks English.
And computers work like this as well.
And the metaphors we use work like this as well.
Like files and folders and ports and connections and whatnot.
In the end, it's all ones and zeros and so on and so forth.
Yeah, it's all make-believe.
It's all kind of make-believe in some sense.
And the same is true for ownership.
Hmm.
But I think ownership is so confused nowadays, because you can't really own data.
You can simulate ownership in some sense, but I think we shouldn't even talk about ownership.
We should talk about control.
We should talk about like, who is in charge, so to speak.
Because that's, that's way more important.
And that's also kind of what we mean.
That's what we mean when we say, you own your data in Nasser, so to speak.
Like you, no one can tell you what to do, or no one can kick you out, or no one can delete
it in your name, so to speak.
You know?
Yeah, I think the idea of own the data within the context of Nasser comes a bit from the,
what we were discussing in one of our dialogues, not episode, about the, the authenticity of
the data being bare within Nasser.
Exactly.
Whereas in platforms, the authenticity comes from the, the authority that says, yes, Gigi
said this thing.
Yeah.
And given that the authenticity came from the authority, if the authority decides not
to give that data, like the authority has to control whether it shows that data or shadow
bands the data, right?
Yeah.
Within the context of Nasser, that's the case.
You can simulate a bare instrument, so to speak, with that concept.
But, but it all stems, it doesn't really stem from any type of ownership.
If anything, it stems from exclusive knowledge of a secret.
So if you manage to keep your private key secure, and you're actually in control of it,
then you can simulate the bare type characteristics of a chunk of data.
And it's true in Bitcoin, it's true in Nasser, it's true across the board, basically.
Yeah.
So data ownership is a lie.
That's what I'm trying to say.
You can't own data.
No, I, I, I, I think the, um, it, it's true that...
By the way, that's waves.
Yeah, these waves are insane.
It's not cars, like when Fiat Jeff is usually talking, we're not on a highway.
But it's, it's like really big waves today.
Yeah, it's the wind.
The, um, I lost my train of thought.
It's the waves.
Yeah, it's the waves.
It comes in waves.
No, but I, but I think, um, the, because there's still a lot of people that are, that have kind of Nasser derangement syndrome.
Yes, very much so.
And there's still a lot of people that have Bitcoin derangement syndrome, of course.
Like I'm not even talking about those anymore.
They are kind of uninteresting.
They're all the same now.
But we have so many ex-coiners now that kind of, you know, um, basically criticize Nasser for sometimes valid reasons, sometimes invalid reasons.
And that's one thing I see over and over and over again with the kind of, the misconceptions about what it means to own your data.
Like what it means to, to where does the freedom that those systems provide you actually come from?
Like where does it actually come from?
And I, I mean, we discussed this the last time already a little bit, like the freedom implies responsibility and the responsibility lies in you taking care of your private key.
And in an extended sense on the Nasser side, you taking care of copies of your data if you want to.
And that's true on the Bitcoin side as well.
Like if you really, like if you really want to take charge, you have to run your own node, keep a copy of the data, enforce the rules, all those kinds of things.
And that's where, that's why you are in charge and why you can be in charge.
It's impossible for all the platforms.
Like you cannot be, you can't, you don't have a say what happens to you on Twitter, on X, on YouTube and so on.
You absolutely have a say on Nasser.
And to me, that's what's so extremely uninteresting about PubKey.
Okay.
I know very little about it, by the way.
So basically the way it works is you sign a DNS record, you put it on a DHT, saying my data is in this one, they call it home server, essentially it's like a relay kind of.
So you sign that pointer saying my data is there, go get it over there.
And that's it, right?
When you want to write, it's just a, whatever, a REST API, for example.
I don't know if it's an actual REST API, it doesn't matter.
You just want to publish something, you publish it on that one home server, and that's it.
But there is no, there is no, there are no signatures beyond the DNS record.
So you're essentially saying the authority of what data I actually created is given by this one server.
You do have the ability of changing the server, and you have to because the DHT kicks you out.
But you have to say, I am writing over here.
This one over here can be, can be malicious.
They can fake data because your data is not signed.
Okay, yeah.
Like each event, each...
The pointers are signed.
Only the pointers are signed.
Only the pointer is signed.
But...
Can it point to multiple...
No, it also can only point to one.
That's kind of bad.
To me, that is a very poor design.
And the whole idea for doing it in this way is that that gives you the ability of keeping the key kind of cold.
But...
Cold in the sense that it never leaves your local area network, for example.
You don't have to use any client.
You don't have to put your private key on each client, right?
Like you can use different clients and you don't have to expose your private key to each one of them
because the only thing that you're actually signing is the DNS record.
But then you're back to the authorities that these homes are.
Yes, you can change it if it becomes malicious.
But there are so many ways in which the home server can trick you even in a way where...
Like it could just shadow ban you.
It could...
Oh, sure.
It could not show your data only to some IP addresses or it could fake your data.
It could say...
What usually also happens is like if there's only one source for the data, it goes away and all that remains is the pointers.
That's what all the NFT people ran into where, you know, like it's hosted somewhere on like...
You own this 404.
Exactly.
You own this 404.
It's a link to AWS and all those kind of things.
And yeah, you don't own the 404, but it's a 404 now anyway.
There you go.
Yeah.
And yeah.
Okay.
What would be the reason...
Because that's kind of the ingenious part of the Nostra slash Bitcoin architecture is that you don't rely on one data source, period.
Yeah.
It's like on the Bitcoin side, you don't rely on any data source anyway.
The data is self-reliant, which is the innovation basically.
Yeah.
100%.
It provides.
And on the Nostra side, it's similar without the temporal component.
And that's why it's kind of like a bearer thing.
That's what you mentioned.
Like the important part is that the servers are not only stupid and exchangeable and so on, but that the data itself is bearer.
So you don't have to trust whoever gives you the data in that sense.
And if you use multiple sources, if you use multiple stupid servers, multiple relays at the same time...
Or a pen drive.
Yeah.
I mean, that too.
But it's like if you...
I think the ingenious part is like if one...
I mean, we discussed this already, but if one relay goes offline, you don't even feel it.
You need to feel it for writing, not for reading.
100%.
And I think that's the right approach.
And I think that's also...
It's...
I mean, Torrent had these ideas as well, where it's just like you...
It's similar, but also different.
But it's basically like...
It doesn't matter if a thing goes down.
The whole system still works.
And that's the important characteristic.
100%.
And that relates a lot with the...
I don't even know if we already want to open the door, but with the design of NADSABs.
Where...
Or of NADSABs.
Of NIP60 and NIP61.
Where the money is the data.
Your private key controls that only you can have access to that data.
And I recently read...
But that's an important point that I think many, many people don't understand.
In the sense that...
Because...
Okay.
So first of all, eCash is bearer.
Period.
Like the money is the token.
Yeah.
So that's the first thing to really internalize.
And the switch that's kind of the...
The...
We kind of went full circle.
You know?
Because on the Bitcoin side, it's...
All the public is out in the open.
The only thing that's really private is the private keys.
And so...
It doesn't even matter that people know...
Like that money moved A to B.
Like if no one else can move it, but person C...
Like as the next one, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter that it's all out in the open.
And with nutsnaps, it's the same principle in a sense that it's like...
If you...
If you lock the bearer token to a specific NPUB, it can be all out in the open.
It doesn't matter.
Like it's...
Again, it's about...
The ownership and control part.
You know?
Like it's about...
On the Bitcoin side as well, we simulate ownership by exclusive control.
And it doesn't even matter that where this data is stored shouldn't matter.
And I think that's the...
That's...
That's the thing.
That's the...
That's the thing that we landed on so many times.
Where the data comes from and where it is stored shouldn't fucking matter.
And I, as a writer for example...
Like...
It's...
In some sense, we figured all these out a long time ago.
Like with books for example.
A book has an ISBN number.
How you read it.
Where you get this book.
Whether it's in digital form or audio book form.
Or like what kind of...
You know?
Who printed it?
And where do you read the information from?
Shouldn't matter.
At all.
It should matter.
If we...
If we discuss the book.
Like...
Or if a system discusses the book.
It...
It shouldn't be an Amazon link.
It should be an ISBN number.
You know what I mean?
And that's what Noster got right.
We're only dealing with...
And Bitcoin got right and so on.
Like we only deal with cryptographic identifiers.
Where the data comes from.
Doesn't matter.
At all.
This should...
Like...
Not really even exist in that concept.
If...
If it's all USB sticks.
It still works.
Like Noster still works over carrier pigeon.
Bitcoin still works over carrier pigeon.
And that's...
That's the right approach.
Like it doesn't matter if...
If something goes down or whatever.
Okay?
I'm ranting again.
No.
But it relates to...
So...
I read...
Someone wrote...
These...
Short...
Article about...
About...
NutsApps.
And...
From the get-go.
They got...
A lot of fundamental stuff wrong.
And...
Actually the article concludes...
With something like...
Uh...
Relay operators should be...
Very...
Um...
I don't know...
Very careful or something like that.
Uh...
Very worried about...
Uh...
Keeping this data...
On the...
On the risk of becoming money transmitters...
Or something like that.
You know...
Money operator...
I don't know...
Money broker...
Something like that.
Is that...
It's...
It's data.
Like...
Cashew tokens...
Have been transmitted...
Over wires.
Over bank wires.
Yeah.
On the memo line.
Over emojis.
That's the thing about data.
It can be...
It can be anything and you can put it into...
In anything.
And it will be put in...
Yes.
Yeah.
It can be 12 words, for example.
It's like...
Data...
Data and data representation are...
Like...
It's...
You can represent any data...
As anything.
It's like...
You can arrange the...
The...
Fucking...
You know...
Like...
Sand corns here on the beach...
To...
You know...
Be a Bitcoin private key, for example.
Or...
What have you.
It's...
Again...
I think...
I feel like...
It's those fundamental things that people don't understand.
Like...
In the world of information...
In cyberspace...
All we have is data...
And the manipulation of data.
That's all we have.
Period.
The end.
We don't have anything else.
You know...
From a practical standpoint...
What's very, very interesting...
Like...
I've implemented...
NatSox...
The NIP-60...
The wallet itself...
Many, many, many times...
Already.
And...
Every single time...
You know what's the hardest part?
Like...
Number one challenge I get...
I mean...
Number one is...
The people calling me a shit-coiner...
Every single one...
Is using...
Okay...
Whatever...
Like...
Yeah...
Okay...
Great...
Perfect...
Every single one of the people calling me a shit-coiner...
Every single one...
Is using...
Strike...
Or...
What if it was a Toshi to receive subs?
Okay...
Sure...
Whatever...
It's fine...
Can't delete your money...
Really...
Can't delete your money...
Every single time...
Is...
Oh...
No...
This is super bad...
Because the release can delete your money...
Number one challenge...
Implementing...
NIP-60...
Is...
Receiving...
Too many tokens...
Not too few...
So the...
Token event...
Where you have the money itself...
You want to delete it...
Because you...
Spent it...
And you moved it somewhere else...
sometimes the release will still send you the fucking token.
Because it's on one server.
You have a swarm of relays, basically.
You throw it around.
And then the issue is that now you have to do state reconciliation.
Like, wait, no, this cash, this token, this proof has been spent.
I should not compete as part of my state.
So the hardest challenge is not getting too few tokens.
It's getting too much fucking data.
I actually had to change the...
Because if there is no global, that's actually a super hard problem.
And you have to kind of...
You have to...
With the data you get from the swarm,
you have to figure out what's going on.
And you have to keep a local state, at least.
So I actually changed the NIP 60 maybe like two weeks ago.
Saying, okay, fuck it, I'm done doing state recalculation.
What I'm doing now is when I produce a new token
that obsoletes a previous state,
I say, actually, this other ID, don't compete.
This ID is deleted.
Even if you get it, fucking ignore it.
So now it's like way easier to compute the state.
But what I want to stress is
that the problem is not
that the data is being withheld from you.
It's that the data is so fucking easy to copy
that it just spreads everywhere.
It just spreads everywhere.
And that's usually what data does.
That's usually...
That's how information works.
Information spreads.
So that's where information wants to be free comes from
and so on.
And that's why it's so hard,
so, so, so hard to keep keys secret
and store them properly.
Because information wants to spread.
It's like it's the only way to move information around
is to spread it.
And again, you can't prove deletion.
And so, like, it's...
I must have said this like 500 times in the last 10 years,
but I'm going to say the whole thing again.
So, okay, the difference between an apple and an idea is like...
An information is like an idea.
And the difference is,
if I have an apple,
if I have an apple and you have an apple,
and I give my apple to you,
you have two apples,
I have zero.
If I have an idea,
and it goes...
I have messed it up already.
So that's how long I didn't say.
If I have an apple and you have an apple,
and we exchange apples,
both of us still have an apple.
If I have an idea and you have an idea,
and we exchange ideas,
both of us have two ideas.
So that's...
You can already see just with that,
that information only spreads.
It's like because you can't prove deletion,
because all those kind of things.
It's like it's very...
It's once your private key is leaked,
you're wrecked.
That's it.
Like you can't go back from that.
It's like some guy probably still has a copy and so on.
That's why it's so, so, so hard.
Like it must never leak.
It's so hard to actually keep it a secret
and all those kind of things.
And it all relates to these things.
Like that's the ground truth of how information works.
And almost all of the confusions
and all the issues that we have stems from that.
Everything you described up to now stems from that.
It's like it's...
Yeah, it's hard to...
Of course you're getting too many proofs,
because the relays are obviously not in sync
because there is no global.
So you will get stuff that's outdated
and you'll get a token that's already spent
and all those kind of things.
So that's just how it works.
That's just how it works.
We've reached the end of our path.
Yeah.
It's a state intervention
stops us from going further.
Such a shame.
I'm looking forward to listening to a couple of minutes
in the middle
when it's like 10 meter waves and strong winds.
Like you're ranting about nutsabs.
No one can hear a thing probably.
But anyway.
No one asks.
What does this mean?
Interesting.
Interesting graffitis.
No, but anyway.
I really want to stress this,
because that's also...
That's the kind of...
There's another thing I want to touch on.
Because there is only information
and the manipulation of information
is only data and computation.
It's the only two things we have in cyberspace, period.
And we simulate everything else with that.
We simulate files with that.
We simulate folders.
We simulate ownership.
We simulate all those kind of things.
We simulate bearer tokens and so on.
It all boils down to there being data
and the manipulation of data.
And so we talked a lot about...
In the courts and so on,
it's like, what can you actually sell
and what is actually scarce and so on.
And compute is actually scarce.
The intense manipulation of data is actually scarce.
And that's also how we landed on DVMs,
where it's like, okay,
that's all that DVMs do.
And that's why they are universal in a sense,
because that's all you can do.
It's like data goes in,
and, of course, the novel part is...
I mean, the main idea of DVMs
and why I think it should be interesting for developers
is like, we can actually build something like an AWS now
without all the bad parts of AWS.
And we can actually build...
And I think it will also scale really well.
And I think the permissionless nature of it,
even though I don't really like that term in a sense,
because you don't have any walls that lock you out.
That's the thing.
You can't just do stuff,
and you can just have agents use this thing, for example.
And you can just deploy something that runs compute,
and because compute is actually scarce,
people will pay for it.
And we saw this already with, like, image generation, for example,
or also text summarization, those kind of things.
All the LLM stuff that's currently the hot shit that's on.
Text-to-speech.
It doesn't make sense to sign up for a mid-journey plan for a year
to generate, like, three images or whatever.
It's like, if you already have sets,
it's way more sensible to use your Nutsap wallet
to query a DVM, like, have a DVM marketplace,
take care of the thing,
and you just pay whatever, like, 100 sets for it, whatever it is.
And that's where all these ideas came from.
Yeah, to me, when you say that this can do all the stuff
that AWS can do without all the bad things of AWS,
the other part that, to me, is absolutely fundamental,
and that's why, to me, NIP-89, like the Discovery stuff,
and NIP-90 DVMs are so intertwined.
Or rather, NIP-90 depends on NIP-89,
and it was kind of by coincidence
that they landed together in a sequential manner.
The idea that you can produce a new service,
a new algorithm, or whatever it might be,
a new image generation, or text-to-speech,
whatever service you want to provide,
whatever compute you want to produce,
and you can just go in and advertise it via NIP-89,
and it can be immediately available
in any client that supports that specific service.
To me, that is absolutely wild.
It's something that AWS simply cannot do.
Like, there is no fucking way.
Because they have to work in their permission sandbox, basically.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, how would you build a permissionless discovery layer
where you don't have to know anything
about the person buying the service
or providing the service?
You can't do it because micropayments don't work.
You would always have to batch it
until you land until, like, 15 bucks or 20 bucks.
Exactly.
That's the main reason.
Exactly.
Because of that, you need KYC
and all those kind of things, and so on.
And so it can't really scale outside of your bounds
where you already know your customer
and you already have a credit line to the customer
and all those kind of things.
Yeah, it's kind of like what we discussed last week
with the introduction of the 402 HTTP code.
Exactly.
It's like, oh, let's just put, like, an HTTP code.
Okay, we'll figure it out next week.
It's like, it might look like a fucking simple problem.
It is a really hard problem.
And because it invites so much complexity,
like solving 402 requires the creation of a blockchain
and mining sites all over the world.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you need, I mean, there is also a reason,
and Kelly talks about this beautifully, of course,
but there is also a reason why eCash never took off
because eCash on fiat, basically, like,
it can never be trustless.
It's like, in some sense, it doesn't make sense.
Yeah, it would be an upgrade,
but it doesn't fix the fundamental issue.
eCash on Bitcoin, however,
it's a completely different story,
and that's why I believe, like, eCash now,
nowadays, now that Bitcoin exists and works
and we have all this stuff,
eCash actually fixes 402.
It actually does.
And I think, I mean, we can already see now
where this is going.
Again, like, coming back to NutsApps,
like, the superpower of all this stuff,
the superpower of cryptography in some sense
is that it is self-contained
and you can actually, you can simulate identity,
you can simulate ownership,
and you can simulate all those things
that we just discussed just with cryptography,
but the implication is,
and that's something that I think
lots of people on our side are also still confused,
and every time new people come in,
they will be confused again.
The only way it works
is if people take the responsibility
upon themselves to custody the keys.
Yes, we can have fancy constructs
with, you know, Multisig and Frost
and other things
where you have collaborative custody models,
potentially, and all those kind of things,
but everything flies out the window
if you don't hold your own keys.
Yes.
Everything flies out the window.
It's like we revert to the old model,
and that's kind of what you have to consider
in your design space
if you build something out in this world.
Like, that's the fundamental truth of the matter.
It's like the freedom that those things provide
only come if people,
if each individual takes the responsibility
of holding their own keys,
of keeping them secret,
and of taking care of, you know,
their self-sovereign secrets.
I'm ranting again.
I feel like I'm only ranting.
It's interesting because when we,
so we started working on the spec for Blossom
to do payments in some way,
either when you publish something,
when you upload something,
or when you get something,
you can include some payment.
And Quentin was working on the spec,
and he initially built it with Lightning.
So, on the HTTP header,
there was a negotiation step
where you would get a Bolt 11 Lightning invoice
from the Blossom server,
and then you would pay it,
and then you would provide the pre-image
on the HTTP header.
It was something like that.
Which is extremely fucking common, too.
And it requires both parties
to be online at the same time,
all those kind of things.
It requires a secret.
It requires an exchange.
Exactly.
It requires a negotiation step.
It requires the whole dance.
And LNURL has the same problem
where you have, like,
all this talking
and all this exchanging of information.
And when we looked at it,
it was like,
huh, yeah,
maybe cashew would be a better fit.
And it's literally,
you do the get,
or you do the post,
and you put the cashew in there,
and okay, thank you, goodbye.
And that's it.
There is no negotiation step.
Here it is.
Yeah.
Here's the proof.
Yeah.
And that's,
again,
I feel like we figured all this out
over the thousands
and thousands of years of civilization.
That's why we have coins
in the first place.
You know?
It's like,
having a bearer token
is actually an insane innovation
because you don't rely
on a central party
to tell you the truth of the matter,
which is always wrong.
Like, whatever is on the clay tablet
is always wrong
because you always have
to come together
and reconcile it.
And it's always political too.
Yeah, of course.
And the people
who are the entry lines
on the clay tablets,
they are completely bound
to the person
who controls the tablet.
And that's why
we landed on coins
and then later notes
and all those kind of things.
But it is,
having a bearer instrument
actually solves this problem.
And I mean,
everyone should know
that like,
the market,
tapping into
the distributed cognition
of the market
is actually
what makes
a complex society work
and all those kind of things
and so on.
And so the money
also needs to be distributed.
That's what coins actually are
and so on and so forth.
But for something simple
like paying for an API call,
that becomes readily apparent again.
That's why I mentioned
like,
without the bad things
of AWS,
AWS is in charge.
AWS has the clay tablet.
Oh, 100%.
Or Visa or MasterCard
or what have you.
And if they don't like you,
they can kick you out.
And I mean...
Oh, they do.
What do you do?
They absolutely do.
They look,
they cancel my Amazon account.
Oh, I'm not surprised.
I mean,
I'm not surprised.
Look at you.
You look like a terrorist.
No,
but that's the thing,
you know,
and I feel like
we learned this
over and over and over again
over the course of history.
And it's having a bearer talking.
It is so much simpler,
but yes,
it requires responsibility.
You have to
actually figure out
and we,
no one thinks about this,
you know,
you don't take
all your wealth
in your like
pocket money wallet
with you
because that's one
of the criticisms
of Nutsapps,
for example.
It's like,
oh no,
it's so unsecure.
Yes,
so is the money
in your pocket.
Someone might rob you.
You might lose it.
It might go under the couch
and then it's gone
and you're poor.
Oh my Lord,
no,
what are we going to do?
But the alternative
is so much worse.
The alternative
is so much worse.
Yeah,
you have to take care
of your own money.
And like,
if there's a,
if you have like
bars of gold,
put them in a safe.
You know,
for example.
Like,
don't carry them around
in your back pocket.
You know,
it's like,
ah,
well,
anyway,
again,
this is,
ah,
it feels cathartic
to rant about this stuff.
No,
but what I find
absolutely fascinating
is the fact
that
had we worked
on Blossom
before
any type of
e-cash
was really available,
the solution
would have been
very hard.
The solution,
like,
even going,
even assuming
Lightning is there,
the solution
of having
this negotiation
to get the
Vault 11,
or even if you
go Vault 12,
right,
it's kind of,
I mean,
it's kind of the same.
You need to get
a payment request
in some way
and then send it
pretty much.
Like,
there is a lot
of complexity
and there is a lot
of interactivity there.
And there's a lot
of stuff that can go wrong.
And there's a lot
of stuff that can go,
absolutely.
And we know
that,
you go back
and forth
like 15 times
with this handshake.
If any,
every,
any single connection
or any peer drops,
then it's like,
you have to start
all over again.
Everything.
And that state
that you need to control
and you need to,
okay,
how do I gracefully
handle this error?
It,
it is a lot
of complexity.
And,
and now,
we just reached
for the tool
and the tool
was there.
And it's so simple.
It literally is,
I think,
it's just a payment header.
Here,
here it is.
It,
it is so simple.
Yes,
you don't send
one Bitcoin there.
It's not for that.
Send,
you know,
a thousand sats
or one sat
or whatever.
Uh,
and everyone
has to model the risk
in whatever way
they,
they see fit.
And people absolutely can.
People absolutely can
figure this out
and model the risk
as you say
and so on.
That's,
that's why people
are okay
with running around
with money
in their pocket.
And they're just
going to take
whatever they need
for the day
or for the next
two or three days
or whatever.
It's like,
it's not a,
I feel like we,
people,
you know,
contrary to popular belief,
like,
people are capable,
I think,
to figure this out.
Just,
just allow them to,
allow them,
give them the tools
and allow them,
give them space
and time to learn
and figure it out.
Yeah,
yeah,
absolutely.
One,
one more thing,
since we already
opened the topic.
The,
yesterday,
last night,
Kali,
which is to me
one of the coolest
things,
not subs,
Kali said something
like,
it's really cool
that you can,
you know the sub
is there
without waiting
for the lightning node
to respond,
to publish the event
with the sub receive.
So the way
subs work,
like lightning subs,
the way,
the way they work is,
you get,
you talk,
you say,
I want to sub Gigi,
I look at,
okay,
what he's Luke 16,
he's LN URL
or whatever,
I talk to that,
I get,
after some negotiation,
I get,
I get a,
a payment request.
Which makes them
even more trustless.
You don't have to trust.
That was my point.
Yeah.
That was exactly my point.
You don't have to trust
whoever is signing
the message that you,
you got,
that's up in those things.
And,
and actually handling,
handling,
the validation
of lightning subs,
it's,
it's really hard.
Like,
if you read the spec,
there are so many steps.
And the,
the,
the signer of the SAP
is not the recipient,
it's not the sender.
It's Albi.
It's either Albi
or Primal
or Wallis of Satoshi.
That's it.
That's all we have.
And,
and it's so weird.
And I actually,
um,
re-implemented,
I refactored,
um,
SAPs on,
on Ola's yesterday.
And,
and I had a bag
and the,
um,
the avatar,
the,
the icon that it was showing
as the sender of the SAP
was the,
the sapper.
So I was seeing a bunch of Albi icons.
Okay.
Because it was,
I was getting the wrong,
because I was using the pub key
of the person publishing the SAP receipt,
which is wrong.
Um,
and you're not waiting,
like when you send the SAP,
you send the payment
and then you just wait
to see if you get a SAP receipt.
And with this is,
if you publish the SAP,
that is the SAP receipt.
Like the publishing of the money is,
it's better.
It's better.
And that's,
that's,
I think the,
the,
again,
the issue is,
the issue is that
all you have is data
and the manipulation of data.
And so the best you can do,
the best we can do,
and I think we should do it
everywhere we can,
basically.
It's like,
you can simulate ownership,
so to speak.
You can simulate bearer tokens
with public key cryptography.
But again,
that implies,
that implies that you are actually
in control of the key.
Otherwise,
everything falls out,
falls out the window.
Then we're back to like Facebook
and Twitter and whatever.
And so,
so,
so if,
if,
if we manage to,
to build this new world
and we build tools
that make it easier
to actually,
you know,
um,
uh,
hold your key securely
and so on.
And I think we're getting there.
Like I,
I love Amber,
for example.
Oh yeah.
It's like,
you know,
I'm,
the UX of Amber is,
it's great.
Absolutely incredible.
You actually,
you have a secure enclave
and your key is only in there
and you have a sign.
It's,
it's like a,
it's like for people
who don't know what Amber is,
uh,
it's,
it's for iOS people,
for iOS people,
like my Apple fanboys.
Oh my Lord.
It's,
it's like a hardware wallet
in your phone.
It's like,
the hardware is in your phone.
You know?
So,
kind of.
Any case,
he's going to hate me
for saying this.
But anyway,
that's how you can think about it.
He will never listen to this anyway.
Oh no,
like he,
he,
he does his own boring thing
where he reads changelogs
for three hours
and he doesn't listen
to anything else.
That's fine.
But,
but anyway,
it's,
if you can,
if you can do a better thing,
you should do a better thing
because everything else
implies keeping track of state,
implies keeping track,
in the worst case,
of like a quasi global state,
all those kind of things.
It implies negotiation.
Authority.
You fall back to,
to credit and authority
in some sense.
And so if you can simulate,
if you,
if you can't do better,
do better.
That's it.
So,
so when,
um,
during,
um,
during Miami,
the Miami conference,
the,
they had like the,
the,
the big screens with,
um,
in the expo area
and they were showing sub life.
Yeah.
And someone started publishing
a bunch of fake,
uh,
subs,
um,
which are,
it's really hard to identify.
Yeah.
It's really,
really fucking hard.
I mean,
it's kind of impossible
to identify.
Did Carmen do a sap of like,
uh,
more than 21 million a ton or something?
That tells you that something's wrong.
It's the famous inflation thing.
Uh,
the 2010 inflation back.
Um,
the,
um,
so what was my solution?
Like,
because I was,
I was in the,
I was at the conference.
I didn't have,
I mean,
I,
you really cannot,
um,
demonstrate that,
that the data is,
that the,
that the sap is real
in,
in lightning subs.
Um,
but,
uh,
what was my solution?
Like,
my solution was literally
to just white list
a bunch of supper pockets.
I white listed.
You became the authority.
Yeah,
you,
my,
yes.
Yeah,
yeah.
You're the authority
and you gave,
I said,
okay,
so I'll be real.
Wallet of Satoshi is real.
So what happened?
The self-custodial lining,
like the people
that were doing it right
were not showing up
on sublet.
That's the issue.
You,
you turned yourself
into,
into the,
the,
the BIS basically.
But,
but I didn't have a way
of saying
this,
this is a real sap.
Even within
Wave of Trust
or whatever,
like,
there is no way.
Um,
yeah,
those are actually
hard problems.
Yes.
I mean,
that one in particular
is unsoldable.
Yeah.
So why do you think,
why do you think
people hate nuts ups so much?
I think,
I think most people
love them.
It's just a few people.
I mean,
some loud people.
Some very,
some very loud people.
It's,
yeah,
I think,
I think it's a,
it's a natural evolution
in some sense
of all the stuff
that was built out
so far.
Because in the end,
it's like,
what do you want
to have happen?
And I think
what is the,
what's one of the
superpowers
of any
cryptographic system
in terms of
anything that uses
cryptographic identities
is like,
you one click
create an account.
It's,
that's it.
You generate,
all you have to do
is generate a key.
And again,
like I spoke about this
a million times
from the Bitcoin side.
The power of Bitcoin
is like,
you can lock yourself
into a bathroom,
you can flip a coin
a couple times
and you walk out
with 12 words
and you can,
that's it.
You're a Bitcoiner,
basically.
You can receive money,
you can spend money,
all the things,
and so on.
And you don't,
like in some sense,
you wouldn't even need
a computer.
You wouldn't even need,
like you only need
a way to do math
and you need
some communication channels
to someone.
But you could be
in prison,
theoretically,
you know,
and you could basically,
again,
with carrier pigeons,
send the data packets
in and out
and all those
kind of things.
And through the power
of public key cryptography,
all this stuff works.
And that's insanely powerful.
And I mean,
Bitcoin shows
how powerful it is.
And we actually know
people like Charlie,
for example,
to name drop him.
He had to leave Venezuela
with his family and so on
and Bitcoin saved his life.
And he's one of the guys
who actually did this.
12 words in your head,
cross the border.
No one knows
that you have anything
or any wealth
and it literally
saved his life
and he was able
to build up
another existence
in another country
and so on.
Yeah,
there was a,
sorry to interrupt,
but in Nashville,
there was a,
at the HRF event,
there was this person
that was supposed
to come
but couldn't come
because of the,
the situation
in South Lebanon.
And he mentioned
that it was the second time
that this had happened
to him
where he has to overnight
all of a sudden
just leave his hometown
with his family
in the middle of the night.
And apparently
that had happened
in whatever,
like 2013
or something like that.
And he was mentioning
how bad the situation
had been
in the last couple of weeks.
He was in the north
of Lebanon
when he was,
he remotely called in.
and he was mentioning
how this time
it was really bad
but it was incredibly better
because he had
all his money in Bitcoin.
So he didn't,
I mean,
he was.
One worry less.
One,
a very important worry.
Like how do you provide
it for your family
when you don't have any money?
It is a massive improvement.
This idea,
this ability
of just saying,
just go.
I,
I told my,
that's,
that's by the way,
like I,
I really hope
that very soon
and we're getting there
like with,
I mean,
the daylight computer people
have the right idea
for example
and a sex story
is getting there
as well
and so on.
But I really hope
that in the end
like if you remember
to have 12 words
in your head,
you pop out,
you pop out somewhere else,
you get a new phone
and you,
you derive your,
your industry seed
from that for example
and everything is there again.
You have everything again.
You have your whole
like online identity,
you have your whole
like your,
your,
your wallet system,
your ecosystem of apps,
all your settings,
all those kind of things.
Like every time
I switch phone,
I,
you know,
like I just,
I lose my mind
for like three weeks
because most,
most apps,
they,
they don't allow you
to easily sync
your setup in some way.
You know,
like you have to start
from scratch
and set everything up again
and literally start
from scratch
and,
and on the,
on the monetary side
of course,
like that,
that used to be the default
with Bitcoin,
you absolutely don't
have to start from scratch.
You have 12 words in your head,
you go somewhere else,
everything is still there,
everything still works
and that's,
that's the fucking superpower
and I think that's why,
why nuts apps
are so insanely important
because the complexity,
like the,
they remove
so much complexity.
Yeah.
Yes,
it's not all sunshine
and rainbows,
there's different trade-offs
and solutions.
No solutions.
No solutions,
only trade-offs.
But,
but it is so awesome
that you can click a button
and you immediately
receive SAPs.
Yeah.
and I,
I know for a fact
that this already blew
the minds of some people
on the Ola site
because they talked
about it publicly,
you know,
like they,
they,
they posted about it
where it's like,
oh my God,
what do you mean?
Like what,
what just happened?
Like they immediately
are able to get SAP
and that's so powerful.
Everyone who ever
onboarded someone to Bitcoin,
they all use Wallet of Satoshi
because of the powerful,
wow,
it just works effect
and now we have that
with,
you know,
better,
you don't have to trust
one provider fully.
Like you don't have to trust
Wallet of Satoshi fully.
I have to catch my breath.
Going upstairs was a mistake.
What's,
yeah,
to me the,
like the,
the Nib 60,
the Natsuk stuff,
it is so fucking cool.
It,
like when you,
but who will run the,
who will run the,
I mean,
yeah,
yeah.
How,
how are we going to manage
without state subsidies?
What's,
like it's super interesting
because I,
as I was working on this stuff,
I,
like I understood it conceptually
and,
and I'm like,
oh,
this is like a really cool idea.
Um,
and the whole reason
why I started working on that
is because
of Primal.
Like,
I really like the flow
of Primal
of where you create the account
and you do click,
click,
like KYC,
click,
which,
you know,
all,
all the love because
you,
it's,
it's like you said,
it's like you said for,
I don't know what you,
what you mentioned last time,
the stuff you looked at,
it's as good as it can be.
The flow is as good
as it can be
if you're forced
to do KYC.
Yes,
if you're forced
to do KYC,
it is as good
as it can get,
but it,
it kind of opened the door
of what does it feel like
for the,
the wallet to be right there.
You don't have to pair it.
You don't have to install
this other app
and then do this other dance
and this thing,
which,
again,
I think,
even if it were to be
self-custodial,
if you don't know
what you're doing,
if you're just blindly
copying data around
and you have no fucking
clue what's going on,
is it self-custodial?
There is this wallet
that I actually really like.
It has this very normie,
friendly onboarding flow
for inheritance
and the last flow
is upload your backup.
So it's like a,
like a multi-sig,
they hold whatever,
one key or two keys
or whatever,
so they don't have quorum.
But as part of the flow
is upload your backup
to check that everything
is okay.
Yes,
I mean,
I'm guessing
they are good guys.
I know they're not going to keep...
So the backup is not encrypted
and it's like...
No, no, no,
you're just literally
just sending to make sure
that you did everything right.
You send your key
and they promise to delete it.
Oh, really?
I don't think
that they're keeping it,
but is that really self-custodial?
Again,
that's the issue.
You can't prove deletion.
So it is pinky promise.
It is pinky promise.
So even if it's not self-custodial,
you don't know
what the fuck you're doing.
So you could be fucking yourself.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
But...
So yeah,
the Primal thing.
To me,
that flow
was so smooth
and I think
they've executed
on the product really well
and the wallet
is phenomenal
and I wanted something like that.
The thing is also
with Primal
and also with wallet of Satoshi
to some degree,
but with Primal in particular,
you can have a taste
of what it feels like
if your money,
if your wallet
follows you around.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
It doesn't matter
if you use it
in five different phones
and it doesn't matter
if you switch
a different phone.
You punch in your ANZAC
and everything's there.
Yes.
And that's such a superpower
and it's...
I think that's...
Nutsaps hit the sweet spot
of all of that,
I think.
Like,
I think from a trade-off perspective,
Nutsaps are fantastic.
Again,
like,
don't store your whole wealth
and so on
and they have their issues
and so on.
But it's also...
It's also...
It's not because
a lot of people will say,
oh, no,
it's custodial.
It's custodial.
Yes,
in some sense,
but also no
in another sense
because the Mint
cannot selectively remove you
or selectively censor you.
It's all or nothing,
which is different
than what we usually think about
in a custodial sense.
And that's what I mean
with like...
Or what we also mentioned.
We're missing the words.
Yeah.
The metaphors break down.
Yeah.
There is not just custodial
and non-custodial.
There's an in-between also.
It's just like collaborative custody.
It is in-between.
It's like...
It's still self-custodial,
but it's...
You know what I mean?
Someone else also holds the key
and so on.
And I feel like
in a Mint setup,
especially the multi-Mint setup,
it's similar.
It's very similar
where it's like
it's not all or nothing.
It's like you can't
be completely debanked.
You can't be completely censored.
You can't be...
It's selectively targeted
and so on.
It's...
Again, like the Mint
knows nothing about you.
The Mint is blind
towards its users.
And that's something
that most people,
I feel like,
don't really understand.
They should.
It's like...
It's the main value proposition,
I feel like.
Yeah.
That's the innovation.
But...
But also the experience,
like...
So Berberica
is integrating
Natsacs
and Natsacs
in Chachi.
And I've been playing
with the beta version
that he's working on now.
And it is so fucking cool, man.
Like,
it is insane.
I have Ola's open
on one side of my screen
and then I have Chachi
on the other side
of the screen.
I am looking at my wallet,
my Natsac wallet
on Ola's.
And I subbed someone
from Chachi
and Ola's immediately
reflects that I spent
some money.
The data is the token.
It's the SEP.
It's all Berberica.
But it's so...
And you know,
like,
the first thing
that shocked me
about Noster
when I first started writing...
Like,
within the first 10 minutes
of writing Noster code
was
I wrote this thing
as a test
of changing
my profile picture
or my name
and whatever, right?
The immediacy of...
The immediacy.
And IPC,
inter-process communication.
I used to read
entire books
about IPC
as a kid.
And,
you know,
IPC is like
fucking music.
Like,
it is a very
complex
computer science
problem.
And
you write code
in Noster
and it's
by default
it's solved.
By default
it's solved.
If you build it right.
And that's what we saw
over and over again.
Like,
once you
build out
a backend
and once you introduce
a server
in the middle
somewhere
all of that
goes away.
All of that
falls apart.
Absolutely.
So,
you actually
have to lean
into the Noster paradigm
to get
all this stuff
for free.
Dude,
that's what
shocks me
so much
about all the people
that want to build
REST APIs
around Noster
is like
the web
are fucking
amazing.
Like,
you're seeing
the event
being changed
in your default
way of getting
your data
you're seeing
the profile changing
or whatever
information is changing
or your wallet balance
changing.
It's so fucking cool.
Like,
why are you breaking it?
It makes no sense.
And also,
it doesn't matter
how well designed
your thing is.
At scale
this stuff doesn't work.
Oh, 100%.
Like,
on GitHub for example
or wherever
if you change
your profile picture
or whatever
they will show a message.
It might take like,
you know,
like 24 hours
to propagate
through all the,
you know,
views
until your
like fucking
profile picture
has changed.
And that's,
on all large scale systems
that's the thing.
Like,
it's,
that's physics.
That's how data
wants to spread
and needs to spread
but it also takes time
and it's,
if you have all
these central authorities
and the central servers
they need to make sure
that the update is legit.
They need to make sure
that,
you know,
all of this stuff
is propagated
and so on
and you have all this caching
and all the things
and so on
and so forth
and so on.
And all the complexity
is what you invite
when you're trying
to create
a fake global state
of the system.
It only counts
because you have
that appeal.
Yeah,
yeah.
If you,
and that's,
I was listening
to a friend,
I was listening
to someone
on a podcast
last night.
You can dox them,
no one is listening
to that.
Yeah,
that's true.
No,
no,
it's not a friend.
He was saying
that,
he was saying
that,
that Noster
is not even attempting
to solve the problems,
that this stuff
that they're working on
is solving the problem
or at least
is trying
and that Noster
is not even trying.
Noster gave up.
And it's,
it's this idea
of we can engineer everything,
you know,
we are masters
of the universe
because everything
is synthetic anyway.
So we can,
we can solve everything.
There are no trade-offs.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
It's,
it's lots of shitcoin
and I said this as well.
There's,
there are no constraints.
Yes,
we can do absolutely everything.
We can solve stuff perfectly
because there are no constraints.
That was the,
that was the grand invention
of,
of proof of stake
on Ethereum.
Remember that
Vitalik said something like,
oh,
we're no longer bound
to the laws of physics.
We're no longer bound
to physical law.
Like,
we can do anything now.
We can shitcoin.
It's,
it's literally make-believe now.
It's,
it's so funny
how this evolved,
by the way,
because there's now literally,
like,
I don't know,
like 20 million coins
on CoinMarketCap
and it's like,
no one is even pretending anymore.
It's just like,
there's the physical reality
of Bitcoin
and there's everything else.
There's everything else.
Complete bullshit.
And,
and that's what I,
that's what I like
about Nostra so much.
It really leans into the,
the,
the nature of information itself.
It really leans into
the nature of information itself.
So,
so it doesn't try
to produce
a global state.
It doesn't try to be
perfect.
It's like,
the stuff is messy.
If you see it,
you see it.
That's what,
that's what,
by the way,
that's why it is my,
my profile banner pic.
It's one of the best memes
I ever saw.
It's like,
you know,
it's the,
it's from Rocky,
right?
Like,
if he dies,
he dies.
It's before the fight
and someone put an ostrich
on,
on top
and it's like,
if he sees it,
he sees it.
That's Nostra.
Like,
it's like,
there's no guarantees
that you're going to see
what I put out,
but if you see it,
like,
you're going to see it.
It's like,
I,
and there's also nothing
I can do about it.
It's like,
I can,
you know,
like pinky promise
requests for deletion,
but it's like,
you know,
there's,
I'm not sure if they already exist,
but there is going to be relays
that only keep the deleted events,
just like,
you know,
Twitter deleted
and all those kind of things.
Oh yeah,
for sure.
Like all the embarrassing stuff
is going to be in one relay,
neatly,
neatly stored forever.
And that's just how it works.
That's how information works.
And,
and,
and pretending otherwise
is,
is very disingenuous.
And,
and you will,
if you,
and that's the thing,
that's why,
that's why I'm kind of,
you know,
like,
I don't know what the right adjective is,
but,
but if you,
if you,
if you do the,
if you lean into the,
the Vitalik way of doing things,
like there is no objective reality,
everything is made up
and physics doesn't exist,
you will run into problems.
You will run into intractable problems.
And,
and just like with the,
like we mentioned,
the people that try to make
a global state happen in Nostra,
you will run into intractable problems.
Oh,
a hundred percent.
I think,
I think once you start going for those,
solving those unsolvable problems,
you end up creating so much complexity,
like you add complexity on top of complexity.
That way,
I mean,
Ethereum looks the way it looks.
Yeah.
It's incredibly complex.
Or to keep on the Nostra side,
another thing is like,
you cannot give people the same flexibility and freedom
while holding all their keys.
You can't do it.
You can't solve this problem just by,
by doing that.
Should we turn around?
Yeah,
let's turn around.
If I go,
if I go up more,
then I'll be,
I'll just die.
It's hot as well.
So let's go back into the wind.
It might pull us down a bit.
But yeah,
I guess,
I guess that's the overarching theme here,
right?
Like there's so much confusion because people think that there is perfect solutions to those
things.
And what we are trying to point out is like,
there's no solutions.
There's actually only trade-offs,
but you have to be crystal clear about the problem space.
And that there is various things that you just cannot solve.
And I think the,
the,
yeah,
the first three or,
or whatever,
like,
I think it hits at the core of a lot of the things that we saw.
It's like,
you cannot have a global state in a distributed system.
The only,
the only thing that can emulate that is Bitcoin itself.
So you need proof of work and all those kinds of things and blah,
blah,
blah.
But,
but other,
other than that,
you just can't have it.
And just because Bitcoin is not pretending to keep state outside of the system.
Yeah,
exactly.
The state of the system.
I mean,
the,
the Oracle problem also,
you can't solve it.
Yes.
It's like Bitcoin solves the Oracle problem by the link of,
Well,
Chainlink did,
did solve it.
Because Chainlink 1 did not because it had the Oracle problem.
So then,
then they introduced Chainlink 2.
Did you know this?
No.
It's insane,
man.
Like when they were faced with the idea of Oracle collusion.
So the first idea was that you have all these Oracles and then you make like,
I don't know,
you grab four of them and you say,
okay,
well,
then now three of them need to collude in order to,
to,
to lie to me.
And they,
well,
yeah,
they can.
So,
okay,
let's introduce a second layer of Oracles.
That's how like master Oracles.
Ah,
sure.
So,
problem solved,
GG.
Absolutely trust.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
That's how it always works.
Yeah.
And like,
again,
like the nature of data itself,
like you can't really own data and you can't also prove deletion of data.
It's like,
if you,
if you actually understand this,
like,
because a lot of the,
the systems that I see that people try to build,
they,
they are very disingenuous about this.
It's like,
you know,
ah,
pinky promise we deleted it and so on.
Uh,
or it's like,
they,
they will talk about data ownership without even kind of realizing what that means or,
or what it implies or that like data ownership is a lie in some sense.
It's like the,
again,
like you can simulate ownership by keeping a secret,
like exclusive knowledge is what simulates ownership in the world of data.
But that implies that someone needs to be responsible to not leak the secret,
you know?
And again,
like,
I mean,
I feel like I'm,
I have a broken record and we're always talking about the same things,
but it's actually important.
It's like,
and you can't abstract that away.
It's,
it's someone has to be responsible for the secret.
And if that someone is not the user,
then the user is not in charge.
Period.
Right.
Yeah.
I,
I have the impression,
I'm wondering if you,
if you have the same feelings or if you have more,
um,
information or knowledge about it,
but do you think that this,
um,
intention of abstracting everything,
all the complexity away,
is it,
is it new?
It,
did it exist 300 years ago?
Huh?
I mean,
I think,
I think in,
in some sense,
people lost a lot of self-reliance in some sense,
um,
uh,
because society works so well and a lot of the things are taken care of.
Um,
that's definitely part of it.
But,
but I also,
I,
I really think it's,
it's,
we have to give people some credit and users some credit,
like people can figure it out.
And,
and,
um,
I,
in some sense,
I think we just have to build for those that are willing to take the responsibility,
offer these options,
build those tools,
and educate as much as we can about the drawbacks of not being responsible for your online life,
and not taking control of your destiny in cyberspace,
so to speak.
I think it will,
it will be more apparent as time moves on,
like,
as more of your identity and your existence moves online,
which is,
I mean,
it has been happening.
Oh yeah.
For the last,
I don't know,
20 years plus,
but people really care.
I mean,
the most important thing that people possess nowadays is their phone.
Your whole life is in your phone.
And,
and,
a lot of people build their existence around whatever,
you know,
their YouTube channel or what have you,
or around certain online communities and so on.
And,
um,
I mean,
times are so volatile now where,
you know,
people are actually getting debanked and deplatformed for
very benign things,
you know,
like voicing opinions that,
I don't know,
there's only two genders,
for example,
or what have you,
you know,
terrorists.
Yeah,
absolutely labeled like enemy of the state,
terrorist and so on.
And,
and I think this will,
like,
even with the political change that just happened in the US,
that will just,
that will just continue because if we have systems where someone in the
middle is in full control,
this control will be exercised.
If there is a block button,
the block button will be pressed.
If there is a,
you know,
the platform,
this person button,
the,
the button will be pressed.
It's,
it,
I think in some sense,
it's,
it's what,
what,
what Satoshi figured out with Bitcoin is like,
if there is a printing press,
the printing press will be used because if there,
there,
there will be a war or emergency emergency or whatever big enough to mess with
the monetary supply to find an excuse.
And that's actually what gold,
why gold was used because gold,
gold moves the question,
of monetary,
monetary policy from the realm of politics into the realm of physics.
Bitcoin does the same.
So it removes,
removes humans from the equation.
And I think we have to do,
make the same move in kind of all of cyberspace in some sense.
And Nostra makes this move for your online life in some sense,
like for your address book,
for your profile,
for your identity in some sense,
you know,
for your,
the stuff that you put out,
the content that you put out and all those kinds of things.
And,
and,
and so I think,
it's going to be the same as it was on the Bitcoin side.
If you,
if you have to flee from Venezuela,
because otherwise you'll,
you know,
starve to death in the next two weeks,
I don't have to explain why Bitcoin is interesting or important to you.
Like you,
you get it.
If you got wrecked enough,
you get it.
And I think on the Nostra side,
it's going to be the same thing.
It's like,
if you,
if you hopped,
like if you got de-platformed five times because of the videos you produce or whatever,
you will,
you will figure out what kind of system is resilient enough that you can,
you know,
keep living your life and keep doing what you do,
without this happening again and again and again.
Yeah.
The,
I,
I mean,
we,
we also discussed this.
I,
I think Nostra will shine not for the lack of pain.
Like it will push people into Nostra because they get burned.
But I think the vast,
vast majority of people will come because the experience is just better.
Because it's awesome.
It's just fucking better.
It's just way early.
It's really hard to see.
I,
I feel like we're kind of close to that because there is no,
and also because of Nostra and I think also because of DVMs.
Yeah.
Because,
because I think with,
with LLMs and all the AI stuff and so on,
you need something and people are figuring this out right now.
You need something,
you need an underlying substrate for AI agents that is actually open.
And that includes money in some sense that so,
so that the agents can pay themselves and collaborate and find each other.
Yeah.
And also limit themselves.
Yeah.
Like you need to give those agents budgets,
for example,
and those kinds of things.
It's like,
yes,
compute this car and so on,
but still you need,
you need marketplaces to figure out a lot of these things out.
And Nostra provides the,
the,
the ground,
so to speak.
It provides the physics,
if you will,
for,
for this ecosystem.
Yeah.
And it can't work in like a closed system,
like for all the,
the reasons we mentioned that.
So,
but yeah,
I'm,
I,
I rented so much now that I'm,
I'm,
I'm close to,
to that's like,
we don't have a limit on this,
but it's like after like 60 minutes or so,
I die of heat stroke.
And that's like a good place to end.
I feel like it's only going to get worse because we're going into the summer.
So,
Oh yeah,
it's going to get hotter,
but yeah,
no,
I,
I mean,
I feel like,
I feel like we're,
we're two old guys sitting on the,
on the,
on the lawn and screaming at the kids.
Yeah.
So sometimes I,
I,
I think a little bit about,
about that in the sense as we are recreating a,
a web that is far less permissioned,
which is where we grew up in,
right?
It looked a lot more like that.
Yeah.
Like,
you know,
like the geo cities and whatnot.
Yeah.
Um,
and that's one thing that I,
that we,
we mentioned as well.
Um,
and I,
I think actually in the first cohort,
but I,
I think I mentioned it a couple of times.
It's,
I think we have to be careful.
Um,
and that's,
it's not even my line.
Um,
but,
uh,
neither nostalgia nor utopia.
Like we,
we,
we must not make the mistake of being nostalgic about geo cities or,
yeah,
absolutely.
And rebuild it exactly.
And so on,
but it had a lot of good things.
Yes.
Just like all traditions.
They have a lot of good things.
And,
and also it's not going to be utopia.
And it's,
I think that's a lot of what a lot of the Bitcoiners got wrong in some sense.
It's like Bitcoin is no utopia,
not at all.
It's like,
it's,
you actually have to take responsibility to enjoy the freedom of that Bitcoin brings
you and taking responsibility is not utopic,
not utopic.
It's,
it's hard.
It's like you have to put in the work and you have to actually be responsible for
those things and so on.
And the same on the NASA side,
it's not a utopia.
It's not like,
you know,
you just,
uh,
lay on the couch and get fat cake all day long.
And that's why you don't have to do anything.
You actually have to put in some work into Noster to,
to enjoy the freedom that it brings you.
It's like you,
you're depending on what you do and who you are and how you use it.
If you're a power user,
you might want to,
you know,
like run your own relay or even run your own mint or what have you to,
to enjoy all this stuff.
And,
and,
and so I think that's,
that's also something that,
that we have to really kind of be more outspoken about in some sense,
because,
because a lot of people that are really bullish on this stuff,
they will tell you that,
oh yeah,
it's going to be utopia.
It's everything's going to be amazing.
It's like,
no,
it's like,
there is no utopic solution.
There isn't.
I think that's where I was wrong with building an insect bunker.
It's thinking you can,
you can not reach utopia,
but like,
uh,
like approach utopia,
you know,
and I was just,
I was struck away the key.
I was so young.
One and a half years ago.
Yeah.
Learned a lot.
Yeah.
I think,
I think one of the things that it's,
it's very hard to figure out beforehand,
but there is some,
there's some kind of solutions that make stuff worse over time.
And there's other solutions that make stuff better over time.
and like Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining is a great example.
I think Bitcoin mining in,
in essence,
it gets better over time.
It gets more distributed.
It's it's it's,
and we had this metaphors for a long time.
It's like,
it finds the stranded energy and all those kinds of things,
you know,
and it finds a nice equilibrium.
It's not going to eat up all the world's energy,
for example,
and so on.
It's like,
I read it in some report.
Yeah.
By 2020,
we're going to be fucked.
It's like we're going to boil the oceans,
everything.
And,
and,
and I,
but it's very hard to know kind of beforehand.
And Sackbanka gets worse over time.
Oh,
how?
And I think I,
I just looked just a couple of days ago,
I posted out in Nostra as well.
It's like,
what,
what are your thoughts on pass keys?
Half the people didn't understand the question.
There was funny as well.
I wasn't talking about YubiKeys.
No,
the pass key is basically it,
it,
um,
Google and Apple and,
and one password and,
and also the YubiKeys people,
they really push it.
And it's basically it's,
it's,
it's public key cryptography,
but,
but the private key,
you're not really in control.
It's either on your device or it's with Apple or,
or in one password and you can't get it out.
So,
so,
so in some sense you are not in control of your private key because people are bad with keys and they can leak them.
So I,
I understand where it comes from.
And I'm,
I'm not saying they suck.
It's like,
it's,
it's a different kind of trade off again and so on.
But,
but I,
I feel like,
I think pass keys are going to get worse over time.
because it's going to be in like one or two data silos.
Oh yeah,
absolutely.
And,
and,
I mean,
it's starting there.
Yeah.
It's starting there also.
Yeah.
And it's also,
it,
it's,
you know,
it's this FIDO Alliance.
It's like the three biggest players come together.
We're going to do it like this now.
It's going to be amazing.
No one has to use passwords ever again.
No one knows how this stuff works.
Basically,
it's very confusing for users.
And you're just locked into the ecosystem forever,
basically,
in some sense that,
that I think might be the result.
Oh,
a hundred percent.
Unless there are some innovations and some,
I don't know.
And it's also,
I think that's the thing.
You cannot innovate that.
Like you,
you cannot solve,
you cannot square.
What's the phrase?
You cannot square that circle.
Yeah.
You,
you cannot solve that.
Yeah.
Like you either have the key and you control the key or,
or someone else is controlling the key.
And it's,
again,
it's,
it's such an impossible problem because it's the,
the,
what we landed on,
on the,
on the authentication world is like,
uh,
basically something,
you know,
and something you own and something you are.
It's,
it's basically,
it's,
it's a password and a YubiKey and a biometrics.
Okay.
It's something like that.
And,
and that's the best we can do.
That's like,
it's very,
very hard to attack all that and steal all that.
And so on the problem with biometrics is,
and that's what most people also have no realization of.
Biometrics are usernames and not passwords.
And,
and,
and the,
uh,
I mean the chaos computer club people,
they made this readily apparent when they like,
you know,
got a photo from fucking Angela Merkel or whatever.
And,
and from the photo,
they reverse engineered the fingerprint and they unlock the phone.
And you can actually do that.
It's a high res photo,
like cameras are good and you,
you get all the lines and then you print it out and then you use some wax or
something and so on.
It's,
it's not even that hard.
Like you can DIY that stuff.
And then you just,
you,
you put the little film over your own finger and you touch the finger,
the fingerprint sensor and the phone unlocks.
So biometrics are usernames.
They're not passwords.
And,
and passwords are actually great.
People suck at doing passwords,
but people will also suck at doing private keys and pass keys,
for example,
you know,
and the thing is like,
okay,
everything is like,
let's say you have the one on device pass key and then,
you know,
like you,
you lose your phone.
Like you're insanely wrecked.
You're mega wrecked.
You have to,
you have to call Google.
So in Apple,
I don't know if that's the way I'm guessing is the same way in Google.
In Apple,
your,
your pass key is all stored in the cloud.
In the cloud.
Of course,
of course,
but,
but someone,
the secret has to be somewhere.
Like,
yeah,
exactly.
stuff on the cloud.
Like it's all,
it's,
it's turtles all the way down.
And that's also,
I mean,
we,
everyone always runs into the same problems and,
and on the nostril side as well.
Okay.
What is,
what about key rotation?
Yeah.
Okay.
Oh yeah.
Then you have a master key and you derive,
you derive the thing from the master key and so on.
Okay.
What if,
what if your master key gets stolen?
Because it's always about compromise and so on.
And then you,
you,
you know,
like you timestamp some things.
Okay.
I'm still in control of my key,
pinky promise.
And I,
so I,
I whitelist the next other keys that,
you know,
I set them up in advance because if my key gets compromised and so on and so forth,
but it's,
it's all,
it's all based in pinky promise because of all the things we talked about,
because you,
you,
you cannot prove deletion of a key.
You cannot,
you,
there is no link between the real world and the world of data.
There just is none.
So if someone steals your key,
there is no difference between you pretending your key got stolen or you pretending you lost your key or
someone actually stealing your key or someone actually losing their key.
It's the,
the,
the computer system cannot know.
Yeah.
And that's the whole,
that's,
that's it.
You can't solve it.
So don't pretend that you solved it in some way.
I,
I think that's why the,
um,
this idea of having like a,
like a social key account,
whatever identity recover.
It's like retarded as fuck,
but it's a reality,
right?
It's left side of the bell curve,
which is why it works.
But we also have to differentiate between,
between identity and authentication.
When I wrote that NIP,
NIP 41 there with a key rotation and the pre assigning of the white listing of the key.
When I wrote that,
this,
the,
the hardest part was how do I name this NIP?
And I went with key rotation.
It's both of those are wrong.
Identity migrate.
I think I,
I landed,
ended up landing on identity migration,
which is also wrong.
It's,
it's,
it's just like a pointer.
Yeah,
yeah,
exactly.
Exactly.
But,
but naming it was so hard because I mean,
rotation also means a bunch of things,
right?
So it's,
it's a very problematic term because it actually has a meaning within like PGP and,
you know,
like it means something.
And what I wrote there is not rotation.
Yeah.
But,
but to me,
the more I think,
and I know that when,
when I wrote that,
that you were,
you,
you extremely favored that part of the NIP was,
you should say,
Gigi says,
Oh,
Pablo's league is compromised.
Pablo's new keys.
This one,
people know that we have a relationship.
So they say,
Oh,
well,
Gigi said that this is the new key.
Okay.
I'm okay.
It already works.
Yeah.
The best use case for this is American model.
Fucking American.
That's fucking it.
Yes.
It shows you how key rotation actually works in the real world.
It's like,
this is Twitter pro for people that are not in the know.
He,
he got booted off Twitter.
I don't know.
Like 17 times.
Every two weeks.
And it was very easy.
Like he comes back and it's like,
it's me bitches.
And,
and you,
you either trust that statement,
or like someone who knows him in person will tell,
no,
it's actually him.
That's it.
I called him.
And that's good.
Okay.
And boom.
And,
and it's,
it's actually not that big of a deal.
It's not that big of an issue.
It,
and that's,
but that's purely speaking from an individual perspective.
I realized like if,
if Nike or like whatever big company,
uh,
gets their,
their key hacked or whatever,
then it's a,
it's a different situation.
But I think we can also get there,
like with all the stuff that's happening,
happening around frost.
Yeah.
It's just a quorum.
And all that complexity doesn't need to live on the protocol.
Exactly.
How do we do signatures?
Now do we,
they can just take that,
all that complexity and put it in.
I know a company that is within,
within us,
because I,
they told me when I was working on,
on,
on NSEC,
on NSEC bunker,
that they had built something like that for themselves,
where they had social media managers that could sign as the main,
like the,
the key,
but they did not have access to the key.
And they just built it in house.
Yeah.
And it's not that fucking complex.
Yeah.
No,
no,
no.
Well,
I mean,
and Coinbase and like all these companies,
they also build their own tool,
their own solutions on how do we keep these keys so that no one guy can take it.
Right?
Yeah.
Sure.
No,
that's what,
that's what you have to do in,
in those settings.
But again,
I think maybe,
maybe we'll touch on that a little bit more the next time,
because I'm,
I'm literally out of steam.
I'm,
I'm running on fumes,
but the one last thing that I love is that this one person that was saying,
Oh,
no,
there is not even trying to solve these,
these,
these things.
Uh,
they,
they are just ignoring the problem.
It came up in the discussion,
the,
the idea of social recovery and I'm out of band and,
you know,
like saying,
Oh,
this is my new end pub.
And five of my friends say,
Oh yeah,
this is the Gigi's new end pub.
Um,
laughing at that idea saying,
that is fucking ridiculous.
Why would you do it?
Like that's so stupid,
but that's how it works and how it always works.
Like if your identity actually got stolen or if you,
if you lose all your passports or whatever,
that's,
that's how it works.
That's how it works.
You go through the,
to the family,
to the friends,
whatever.
And they will tell you,
no,
that's actually the person.
Yeah.
And so on.
And I think a lot of people,
and maybe we,
we touch on this the next time or at some other point,
a lot of people are confused about the difference.
There is a difference between identity and authentication.
They're not the same thing.
Oh,
they're absolutely not the same thing.
And identity,
you are not in charge of your identity.
Really?
That's like what,
what all the postmodernist people are confused about as well.
It's like,
um,
people will tell you who you are or what you are in some sense.
Like in,
the people are social creatures and your identity derives from the
environment you're embedded in.
And you,
you cannot choose who you're again,
like I made this joke already the last time,
but the high school makes us very clear.
You're not even in charge of your name.
Like if you're dickface,
then you're dickface for all of school,
you know,
like whatever.
It's like,
it's like,
you,
you can't tell other people what to call you,
for example,
like you,
you'll get the name that whatever fits you,
what other people think fits you.
And so on.
And,
and,
and so,
so that's very,
very different from authentication,
which,
and,
and I,
I think like even in,
in an Oscar world and lots of,
of devs,
I feel like are quite confused about them,
where,
where they,
they kind of,
they,
mix these concepts together in some weird way,
or try to come up with solutions for,
for,
for the whole thing,
but they only have a solution for identity,
or they only have a solution for authentication and so on and so forth.
So maybe that's worth exploring a little bit more because it's,
again,
I think it's a problem of where missing a lot of the,
I feel like we don't have great terminology.
Oh,
a hundred percent.
Absolutely.
And,
and it's also like,
you know,
pseudonymity and anonymity and all those kinds of things.
It's like,
we,
some people know that there is a difference and all those kinds of stuff.
And I think Nostar gives us a unique kind of possibility to explore all this some more and also normalize it in the sense,
like we mentioned it briefly last time,
I think as well.
It's like,
you can,
again,
like NSACs are free.
You can,
you can,
you can reply as like a new person,
just for this one reply.
You can try out a client for a week.
Just,
just,
just because,
but just because you don't want to potentially compromise your main account or do something stupid with your main and those kinds of things.
And,
and,
and I think it's very much,
very much worth exploring all this because it's,
it's just a fact of the new system.
And it's very different from what Facebook or Google or Apple tries you to believe that you have one identity.
You are one thing.
That's only you.
And,
and it,
and it's all encompassing,
you know?
And I,
I think that's extremely misguided from the get go because identity is inherently prismatic.
It's like you,
you are not one thing.
And,
and again,
like I,
I always use the same examples,
but if you,
if you go to,
to Vegas for,
to Las Vegas for the weekend,
you might be Steve or whatever,
you know?
It's like,
that's always how identity worked,
you know?
And again,
like we,
we have to,
I think we have the opportunity now to model cyberspace accordingly,
model cyberspace on reality and not make something up.
like Facebook or whatever and force everyone into the made up world.
And I think that's,
that's kind of why I'm so motivated to,
to,
to talk about these things because I think we can actually do it.
Yeah.
Yeah,
absolutely.
But the devs also have to,
the people building the stuff,
they,
they need to understand this properly and understand the problem space properly.
And to,
to,
to follow up to,
to what you said about,
oh,
we're not even trying to solve this problem.
It's fine to not try and solve an impossible problem.
It's the only,
the only way to go.
Yeah.
You will expend all your energy and time.
It's like,
don't,
and it will,
you will not make a thing.
Don't,
don't,
don't waste your time trying to build a perpetual motion machine,
for example.
It's like,
you know,
have you heard that Vitalik?
That might be a good place to end.
I'm,
I'm completely done.
Yeah.
Me too.
Any last words?
No,
I think we're good.
Oh yeah.
I tweeted,
I tweeted a few days ago.
You're,
you are not your NPUB.
And I was going for this discussion.
You aren't.
You absolutely aren't.
Your NPUB is a pointer.
That's it.
Maybe.
But you know,
some people ask me,
am I my NSEC?
Thinking that that's,
that's what I was going for.
And you're not your NSEC either.
I have many NSECs.
I mean,
people would only know.
Nostra is literally like 20 people.
All right,
Pablo.
All right.
Let's continue this next week.