1
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Yes, no, maybe.

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You clipped the beard.

3
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Oh my god.

4
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That's great.

5
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What a great way to start the day.

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With pain.

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With pain.

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It's very stoic.

9
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Yeah.

10
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All right.

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Wait, no, this is very annoying.

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Me?

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No, no, no.

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You put it down and it works.

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I don't know.

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I'm sure if it works.

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We'll see.

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Last time you had it like that as well.

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We have to be okay with it being shitty.

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Yeah, like this.

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I think that's good.

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Who knows.

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We'll learn.

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We'll see.

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So I told you I have a plan.

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Yeah, a man with a plan.

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I'm scared and excited at the same time.

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So the meta theme seems to be to not tell people what to do, but to kind of.

29
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Well, it's not for script either.

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We're not telling people what to do.

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No, that's what I mean.

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We're not.

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But putting a finger on the things that we think are misguided in some sense.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Like, again, like we saw a lot of stuff, worked with a lot of devs, had lots of these conversations off the record and so on.

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And so the main thing what we discussed in the first one was people are like super afraid just to, I don't know, think out in the open, build out in the open, ship the things that they have and so on.

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And that's that's something that that really grinds my gears because there's so much cool stuff that's just on some hard disk somewhere.

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And people are kind of too embarrassed or too ashamed to push it out and so on.

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And it's like I've seen this multiple times when someone built something really cool and it's just it's not on a repo somewhere.

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No one knows that this exists.

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And then the guy loses interest and and it would have been useful.

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It would have been useful to me personally and so on.

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And it's just not shipped.

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It's not like just just kind of create repo, push it out.

45
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That's that's all like no one cares that your code is ugly and things are not clean up.

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Literally no one cares.

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So, yeah, I mean, not to start within the first minute minute with the B word, but the B word.

48
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But the Bitcoin first version could have been like that.

49
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It could have been.

50
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This sucks.

51
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I'm not going to release this.

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I'm going to be so ashamed if I release this.

53
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Oh, yeah.

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Oh, wow.

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It's windy.

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It's really windy.

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Jesus.

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That's got to be that's going to be interesting.

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No, well, the tunnel will fix it.

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The tunnel will fix the wind and then we'll see how it goes.

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Okay.

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I mean, now now we're going to know how it is if there's like really strong winds while we're walking.

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Yeah.

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I mean, as everyone knows now, this is just another Bitcoin podcast.

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So I would encourage everyone to.

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It's the Bitcoin Blossom podcast.

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We are in a very unique niche.

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It doesn't get more niche than that.

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But yeah, look at the actually first released version of the Bitcoin code.

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It's like insane.

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It's insane.

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It's like it's it's spaghetti code main dot CPP like a couple of hundred lines.

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There's like a big poker game.

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Exactly.

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A big poker client in there and like all it's all over the place.

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So, yeah.

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And and and people defy Satoshi, you know, and he sent even earlier versions around before that,

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you know, like in he did it right.

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He's just like, hey, look, I built this ugly thing, send it to some people and then pushed it out.

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So fantastic.

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It's shit.

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What do you think?

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Exactly.

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So, yeah.

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And the second one was that there is no global, like one of the misconceptions that people have

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and that we saw people run into.

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They try to fix this problem.

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They try to build a global state, which, of course, is what Satoshi managed.

89
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But people, you know, we have to mention it as a Bitcoin podcast.

90
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And so what I want to spring on you, what my plan is for today.

91
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And this will lead to probably also like EVMs and Nutsubs and many other things.

92
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But it's I think one of the main misconceptions that people still have both on the Bitcoin side,

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but especially in the Nostra side is that you can own data.

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Oh, yeah.

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And I see it like at least once a week.

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Someone is like it's and I just saw the book again with like read, write, own.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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It's like the, you know, the new paradigm is that you own your data and you own your online identity and so on.

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And I think one of the things that we had that we wrote down one day was like, you can't own public data.

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I would even go as far as to say data ownership is a complete lie.

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You can't own data.

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So I don't know.

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Can you can you own the number three?

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Discuss.

106
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Yeah, I think it's a confusion with the idea of controlling the data and owning the data.

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Yeah.

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What does it mean to own something?

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Yeah.

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In the first place.

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Yeah.

112
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I don't know.

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What does it mean to own something?

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Yeah.

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I don't know.

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What does it mean to own something in meat space?

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Like, what does it mean if you own a chair?

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I mean, within.

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What's the, what's the phrase?

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If you have something.

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Possession.

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Yeah.

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That one.

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Yeah.

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But that means that you can, you can dictate what happens to it is I guess what it means.

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I guess in that sense, I mean, at the very, at the very base.

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You control it.

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At the very base of things.

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Um, it's always about the violence, right?

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Like, what can you defend?

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So, if I, if you.

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That's a good, that's a good point.

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That's a good frame.

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If I have this chair, um, and you can, for whatever reason, take it away.

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Who owns it?

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Right?

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Uh, that's why, where the state comes from, you know, like the idea of the state comes,

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uh, into this paradigm of, um, we are going to externalize the violence.

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So that someone will.

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To resolve ownership disputes.

141
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Yeah.

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Exactly.

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But for data, you don't like, I think data is a, is a very special because you can defend

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it in a way that doesn't involve, um, violence because you can secure it with, via private

145
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keys and then how you manage the private keys is, which are.

146
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Then again, that's, can you own a private key?

147
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I would argue, no, like I don't, I don't.

148
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You can control it.

149
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,000
You, you can, you can have exclusive knowledge of a secret.

150
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:50,000
Yes.

151
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,000
And that simulates ownership.

152
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,000
Yes.

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And that's the best we can do.

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Yeah.

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And I think the whole confusion around, you know, what it means to own data, what it means

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to, I don't know, own your NASA profile or own whatever.

157
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,000
It stems from that that people, I think all that, I mean, we keep, we keep hitting the

158
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same topics.

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I kind of hate myself for bringing it up again, but the NFT people, that's what they are confused

160
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about.

161
00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,000
You can't actually own a JPEG.

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You can't own anything that is for public consumption ever.

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00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:24,000
It's like the best you can do is that you have exclusive, exclusive knowledge of something.

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That's the best you can do in the world of data.

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And data is information and information is like the number three and the number three is

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00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,000
like an idea and you can't really own an idea.

167
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,000
Yeah.

168
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,000
It's just like, it's in some sense, all that Bitcoin trying to do is like simulate ownership.

169
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,000
But I think we have all these, it's tunnel time, by the way, in case you don't do it.

170
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All right.

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Readly apparent.

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The wind is gone.

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The echo is here.

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00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:57,000
No, but I think what's interesting is that Bitcoin, but cryptography in general gives us

175
00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:05,000
tools to make this idea of defending a secret more robust, gives us more tooling, basically.

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00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:10,000
Like a multi-sig, for example, is a good example that, you know, you need to...

177
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Oh, absolutely.

178
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Pine Logs as well.

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It's a very novel concept.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Or Shamir Sharding.

182
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These are tools that allow us to manage a secret and keep a secret in a more robust

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way.

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It's still a secret.

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It's a different...

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It's, historically speaking, the guy with the longer stick one.

187
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Yeah.

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When it comes to ownership and when it comes to defending property, historically speaking,

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violence always won.

190
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What's new about cryptography is violence doesn't win.

191
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You can't...

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You can't...

193
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,000
I mean, there was...

194
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,000
Was it Apple Bomb or was it even...

195
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:57,000
I don't know who said it, but no amount of violence will ever solve a math problem.

196
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And that's what's novel about it.

197
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:04,000
And that's what the whole, like, sovereign individual thesis is about and all those kind

198
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of things.

199
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,000
I mean, at the end of the day, the key...

200
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,000
Unless you burn the key, the key is still somewhere...

201
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,000
Yeah, but you can also not provably burn it, right?

202
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,000
Yes.

203
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,000
And it relates to a lot of the confusions, again, on the notion side.

204
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,000
It's like, you can't really delete your profile.

205
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:18,000
Yes.

206
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,000
For example.

207
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,000
We just merged Nib62, which is this...

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00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,000
I know.

209
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000
Make-believe.

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00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000
Yeah, yeah.

211
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,000
It's make-believe, like, the profile is gone.

212
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,000
Yes.

213
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,000
But if you still have a copy of the private key somewhere, you can start signing events

214
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,000
again and just pushing them out.

215
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:38,000
Yeah, the idea is that there is this one event that, regardless of the time of the event

216
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,000
or anything like that, you can take a round and it's an instruction, you know, if the

217
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,000
signature matches...

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00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,000
Yeah, to ignore the profile.

219
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,000
It's an instruction to the relays to delete everything, basically.

220
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

221
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,000
But it's completely make-believe.

222
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,000
Yeah, it's make-believe.

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00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,000
And it's also kind of bad, I think, in some sense, because what if someone takes over your

224
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,000
account?

225
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,000
It's like, what if you get hacked?

226
00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,000
What if someone controls your private key that you don't want...

227
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,000
Oh, I'm a firm believer in burning the ship.

228
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,000
If your NSEC is compromised, leak the NSEC.

229
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,000
Yeah, no, but...

230
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Because it's a complete destroyer, because we don't have time in Noster.

231
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,000
Noster cannot tell time.

232
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,000
Yeah.

233
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,000
Once the key is burned, you can rewrite anything, you can delete, you can do whatever, right?

234
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,000
Yeah.

235
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:24,000
So, if you leak the key, the whole history of that key is destroyed.

236
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,000
Because everything could have been forged.

237
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000
Yeah.

238
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,000
No, it's...

239
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,000
But that's also...

240
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,000
It relates to the misconception about the nature of data itself.

241
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,000
You just spoke about the destroying of a key and the destruction of data and all those

242
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,000
kind of things that we speak about deleting the data and so on.

243
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,000
And it's kind of impossible.

244
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,000
Yeah, no, no.

245
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,000
Yeah, I agree.

246
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:45,000
You can't prove deletion.

247
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,000
Like, you can destroy a chair.

248
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,000
You can provably destroy a chair.

249
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,000
Like, there's a chair, there's one chair, and you take a sledgehammer, and you destroy the

250
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,000
chair, and the chair is gone.

251
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,000
You have to have tears.

252
00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,000
Yeah, exactly.

253
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,000
And data works very, very differently.

254
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,000
Yes.

255
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:03,000
Yes, you can destroy data.

256
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,000
Like, if there's only...

257
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:10,000
If you know for sure that there's only one copy of the data, and you destroy the medium

258
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,000
that holds it, then the data's gone.

259
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,000
Okay, fair enough, fair enough.

260
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,000
But most data, and especially in a networked world, it doesn't work like this.

261
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,000
Yeah.

262
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,000
Like, computers...

263
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,000
I mean, I spoke about this and wrote about this, like, so many times, I feel like a broken

264
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:21,000
record.

265
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,000
But it's computers are copying machines.

266
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,000
If you transfer something, you copy it, period.

267
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,000
You cannot move data.

268
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,000
Yeah.

269
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,000
You can only copy it and delete it.

270
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:37,000
And that's why in a networked online environment, it's so hard to speak about any deletion.

271
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,000
It's like, it's all based on trust.

272
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,000
Yeah, it's all...

273
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,000
It's like, Pinky promised I deleted the thing.

274
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,000
Yeah, it's all synthetic deletions.

275
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,000
Yeah.

276
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,000
It's not really what we mean by deletion.

277
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,000
It's just like a similar concept, but it's not real.

278
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,000
Exactly.

279
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,000
And all the things we talk about are kind of like that.

280
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,000
And that's what we touched on when we first talked, I think.

281
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:04,000
It's like, our metaphors and the things we have, the memes, so to speak, that we have

282
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,000
a lot of stuff, they all break down because they're all very inaccurate.

283
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,000
And I feel like we need new, clearer mental pictures of it.

284
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,000
I mean, files and folders are another example.

285
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,000
It's completely made up.

286
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,000
It's like, what is a folder?

287
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,000
It's like, where does it come from?

288
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,000
Or like the icons on the desktop or all those kind of things.

289
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,000
I mean, there are these great examples where it's like, no one knows anymore.

290
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,000
Like the kids don't know why the save button had a disc on it.

291
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,000
It's weird, like, quadratically shaped thing, whatever.

292
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,000
No one knows.

293
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,000
But that's just how it works.

294
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:42,000
And that's, we also talked about, you know, like our, the concept of distributed cognition,

295
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,000
where it's like, you didn't come up with this stuff.

296
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,000
Just like we didn't come up with English, you know?

297
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:48,000
Yeah.

298
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,000
English works like this.

299
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,000
And there's a reason why we have these words and use these words.

300
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,000
And it's all very complex.

301
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,000
You don't understand it.

302
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,000
No one really understands English.

303
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,000
English is way smarter than every single individual that speaks English.

304
00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,000
And computers work like this as well.

305
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,000
And the metaphors we use work like this as well.

306
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,000
Like files and folders and ports and connections and whatnot.

307
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,000
In the end, it's all ones and zeros and so on and so forth.

308
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,000
Yeah, it's all make-believe.

309
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,000
It's all kind of make-believe in some sense.

310
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,000
And the same is true for ownership.

311
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,000
Hmm.

312
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:22,000
But I think ownership is so confused nowadays, because you can't really own data.

313
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,000
You can simulate ownership in some sense, but I think we shouldn't even talk about ownership.

314
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,000
We should talk about control.

315
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,000
We should talk about like, who is in charge, so to speak.

316
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,000
Because that's, that's way more important.

317
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,000
And that's also kind of what we mean.

318
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,000
That's what we mean when we say, you own your data in Nasser, so to speak.

319
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:48,000
Like you, no one can tell you what to do, or no one can kick you out, or no one can delete

320
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,000
it in your name, so to speak.

321
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,000
You know?

322
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:58,000
Yeah, I think the idea of own the data within the context of Nasser comes a bit from the,

323
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:07,000
what we were discussing in one of our dialogues, not episode, about the, the authenticity of

324
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,000
the data being bare within Nasser.

325
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:10,000
Exactly.

326
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:16,000
Whereas in platforms, the authenticity comes from the, the authority that says, yes, Gigi

327
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,000
said this thing.

328
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,000
Yeah.

329
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:25,000
And given that the authenticity came from the authority, if the authority decides not

330
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:30,000
to give that data, like the authority has to control whether it shows that data or shadow

331
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,000
bands the data, right?

332
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,000
Yeah.

333
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,000
Within the context of Nasser, that's the case.

334
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,000
You can simulate a bare instrument, so to speak, with that concept.

335
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:46,000
But, but it all stems, it doesn't really stem from any type of ownership.

336
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,000
If anything, it stems from exclusive knowledge of a secret.

337
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:55,000
So if you manage to keep your private key secure, and you're actually in control of it,

338
00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:01,000
then you can simulate the bare type characteristics of a chunk of data.

339
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,000
And it's true in Bitcoin, it's true in Nasser, it's true across the board, basically.

340
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:09,000
Yeah.

341
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,000
So data ownership is a lie.

342
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,000
That's what I'm trying to say.

343
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,000
You can't own data.

344
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:21,000
No, I, I, I, I think the, um, it, it's true that...

345
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,000
By the way, that's waves.

346
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,000
Yeah, these waves are insane.

347
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:28,000
It's not cars, like when Fiat Jeff is usually talking, we're not on a highway.

348
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,000
But it's, it's like really big waves today.

349
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,000
Yeah, it's the wind.

350
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:41,000
The, um, I lost my train of thought.

351
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,000
It's the waves.

352
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,000
Yeah, it's the waves.

353
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,000
It comes in waves.

354
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:55,000
No, but I, but I think, um, the, because there's still a lot of people that are, that have kind of Nasser derangement syndrome.

355
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:56,000
Yes, very much so.

356
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,000
And there's still a lot of people that have Bitcoin derangement syndrome, of course.

357
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,000
Like I'm not even talking about those anymore.

358
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,000
They are kind of uninteresting.

359
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,000
They're all the same now.

360
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:13,000
But we have so many ex-coiners now that kind of, you know, um, basically criticize Nasser for sometimes valid reasons, sometimes invalid reasons.

361
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:21,000
And that's one thing I see over and over and over again with the kind of, the misconceptions about what it means to own your data.

362
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:29,000
Like what it means to, to where does the freedom that those systems provide you actually come from?

363
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,000
Like where does it actually come from?

364
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:41,000
And I, I mean, we discussed this the last time already a little bit, like the freedom implies responsibility and the responsibility lies in you taking care of your private key.

365
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:48,000
And in an extended sense on the Nasser side, you taking care of copies of your data if you want to.

366
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,000
And that's true on the Bitcoin side as well.

367
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:59,000
Like if you really, like if you really want to take charge, you have to run your own node, keep a copy of the data, enforce the rules, all those kinds of things.

368
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,000
And that's where, that's why you are in charge and why you can be in charge.

369
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,000
It's impossible for all the platforms.

370
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:13,000
Like you cannot be, you can't, you don't have a say what happens to you on Twitter, on X, on YouTube and so on.

371
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,000
You absolutely have a say on Nasser.

372
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:22,000
And to me, that's what's so extremely uninteresting about PubKey.

373
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,000
Okay.

374
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,000
I know very little about it, by the way.

375
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:42,000
So basically the way it works is you sign a DNS record, you put it on a DHT, saying my data is in this one, they call it home server, essentially it's like a relay kind of.

376
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:49,000
So you sign that pointer saying my data is there, go get it over there.

377
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,000
And that's it, right?

378
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,000
When you want to write, it's just a, whatever, a REST API, for example.

379
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,000
I don't know if it's an actual REST API, it doesn't matter.

380
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:06,000
You just want to publish something, you publish it on that one home server, and that's it.

381
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:12,000
But there is no, there is no, there are no signatures beyond the DNS record.

382
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:21,000
So you're essentially saying the authority of what data I actually created is given by this one server.

383
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:27,000
You do have the ability of changing the server, and you have to because the DHT kicks you out.

384
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:33,000
But you have to say, I am writing over here.

385
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,000
This one over here can be, can be malicious.

386
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,000
They can fake data because your data is not signed.

387
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,000
Okay, yeah.

388
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,000
Like each event, each...

389
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,000
The pointers are signed.

390
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,000
Only the pointers are signed.

391
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,000
Only the pointer is signed.

392
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,000
But...

393
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,000
Can it point to multiple...

394
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,000
No, it also can only point to one.

395
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,000
That's kind of bad.

396
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:57,000
To me, that is a very poor design.

397
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:05,000
And the whole idea for doing it in this way is that that gives you the ability of keeping the key kind of cold.

398
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:06,000
But...

399
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:12,000
Cold in the sense that it never leaves your local area network, for example.

400
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,000
You don't have to use any client.

401
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:21,000
You don't have to put your private key on each client, right?

402
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:27,000
Like you can use different clients and you don't have to expose your private key to each one of them

403
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:33,000
because the only thing that you're actually signing is the DNS record.

404
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,000
But then you're back to the authorities that these homes are.

405
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,000
Yes, you can change it if it becomes malicious.

406
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:46,000
But there are so many ways in which the home server can trick you even in a way where...

407
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,000
Like it could just shadow ban you.

408
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,000
It could...

409
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,000
Oh, sure.

410
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,000
It could not show your data only to some IP addresses or it could fake your data.

411
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,000
It could say...

412
00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:01,000
What usually also happens is like if there's only one source for the data, it goes away and all that remains is the pointers.

413
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:06,000
That's what all the NFT people ran into where, you know, like it's hosted somewhere on like...

414
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,000
You own this 404.

415
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,000
Exactly.

416
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000
You own this 404.

417
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,000
It's a link to AWS and all those kind of things.

418
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,000
And yeah, you don't own the 404, but it's a 404 now anyway.

419
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,000
There you go.

420
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,000
Yeah.

421
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,000
And yeah.

422
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,000
Okay.

423
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,000
What would be the reason...

424
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:32,000
Because that's kind of the ingenious part of the Nostra slash Bitcoin architecture is that you don't rely on one data source, period.

425
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:33,000
Yeah.

426
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,000
It's like on the Bitcoin side, you don't rely on any data source anyway.

427
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,000
The data is self-reliant, which is the innovation basically.

428
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,000
Yeah.

429
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,000
100%.

430
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,000
It provides.

431
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:49,000
And on the Nostra side, it's similar without the temporal component.

432
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,000
And that's why it's kind of like a bearer thing.

433
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,000
That's what you mentioned.

434
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:59,000
Like the important part is that the servers are not only stupid and exchangeable and so on, but that the data itself is bearer.

435
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,000
So you don't have to trust whoever gives you the data in that sense.

436
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:08,000
And if you use multiple sources, if you use multiple stupid servers, multiple relays at the same time...

437
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,000
Or a pen drive.

438
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,000
Yeah.

439
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,000
I mean, that too.

440
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,000
But it's like if you...

441
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,000
I think the ingenious part is like if one...

442
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,000
I mean, we discussed this already, but if one relay goes offline, you don't even feel it.

443
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,000
You need to feel it for writing, not for reading.

444
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,000
100%.

445
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,000
And I think that's the right approach.

446
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,000
And I think that's also...

447
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,000
It's...

448
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,000
I mean, Torrent had these ideas as well, where it's just like you...

449
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,000
It's similar, but also different.

450
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,000
But it's basically like...

451
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,000
It doesn't matter if a thing goes down.

452
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,000
The whole system still works.

453
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,000
And that's the important characteristic.

454
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,000
100%.

455
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,000
And that relates a lot with the...

456
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:50,000
I don't even know if we already want to open the door, but with the design of NADSABs.

457
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,000
Where...

458
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,000
Or of NADSABs.

459
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,000
Of NIP60 and NIP61.

460
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,000
Where the money is the data.

461
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:02,000
Your private key controls that only you can have access to that data.

462
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,000
And I recently read...

463
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,000
But that's an important point that I think many, many people don't understand.

464
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,000
In the sense that...

465
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,000
Because...

466
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,000
Okay.

467
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,000
So first of all, eCash is bearer.

468
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,000
Period.

469
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,000
Like the money is the token.

470
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,000
Yeah.

471
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,000
So that's the first thing to really internalize.

472
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,000
And the switch that's kind of the...

473
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,000
The...

474
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,000
We kind of went full circle.

475
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,000
You know?

476
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,000
Because on the Bitcoin side, it's...

477
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,000
All the public is out in the open.

478
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,000
The only thing that's really private is the private keys.

479
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,000
And so...

480
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,000
It doesn't even matter that people know...

481
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,000
Like that money moved A to B.

482
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,000
Like if no one else can move it, but person C...

483
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,000
Like as the next one, it doesn't matter.

484
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,000
It doesn't matter that it's all out in the open.

485
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,000
And with nutsnaps, it's the same principle in a sense that it's like...

486
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,000
If you...

487
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:54,000
If you lock the bearer token to a specific NPUB, it can be all out in the open.

488
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,000
It doesn't matter.

489
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,000
Like it's...

490
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,000
Again, it's about...

491
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,000
The ownership and control part.

492
00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,000
You know?

493
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,000
Like it's about...

494
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,000
On the Bitcoin side as well, we simulate ownership by exclusive control.

495
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,000
And it doesn't even matter that where this data is stored shouldn't matter.

496
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,000
And I think that's the...

497
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,000
That's...

498
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,000
That's the thing.

499
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,000
That's the...

500
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,000
That's the thing that we landed on so many times.

501
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,000
Where the data comes from and where it is stored shouldn't fucking matter.

502
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,000
And I, as a writer for example...

503
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,000
Like...

504
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,000
Like...

505
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,000
It's...

506
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,000
In some sense, we figured all these out a long time ago.

507
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,000
Like with books for example.

508
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,000
A book has an ISBN number.

509
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,000
How you read it.

510
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,000
Where you get this book.

511
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,000
Whether it's in digital form or audio book form.

512
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,000
Or like what kind of...

513
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,000
You know?

514
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,000
Who printed it?

515
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,000
And where do you read the information from?

516
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,000
Shouldn't matter.

517
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,000
At all.

518
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,000
At all.

519
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,000
It should matter.

520
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,000
If we...

521
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,000
If we discuss the book.

522
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,000
Like...

523
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,000
Or if a system discusses the book.

524
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,000
It...

525
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,000
It shouldn't be an Amazon link.

526
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,000
It should be an ISBN number.

527
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,000
You know what I mean?

528
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,000
And that's what Noster got right.

529
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,000
We're only dealing with...

530
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,000
And Bitcoin got right and so on.

531
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,000
Like we only deal with cryptographic identifiers.

532
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,000
Where the data comes from.

533
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,000
Doesn't matter.

534
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,000
At all.

535
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,000
This should...

536
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,000
Like...

537
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,000
Not really even exist in that concept.

538
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,000
If...

539
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,000
If it's all USB sticks.

540
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,000
It still works.

541
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,000
Like Noster still works over carrier pigeon.

542
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,000
Bitcoin still works over carrier pigeon.

543
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,000
And that's...

544
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,000
That's the right approach.

545
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,000
Like it doesn't matter if...

546
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,000
If something goes down or whatever.

547
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,000
Okay?

548
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,000
I'm ranting again.

549
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,000
No.

550
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,000
But it relates to...

551
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,000
So...

552
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,000
I read...

553
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,000
Someone wrote...

554
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,000
These...

555
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,000
Short...

556
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,000
Article about...

557
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,000
About...

558
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,000
NutsApps.

559
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,000
And...

560
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,000
From the get-go.

561
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,000
They got...

562
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,000
A lot of fundamental stuff wrong.

563
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,000
And...

564
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,000
Actually the article concludes...

565
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,000
With something like...

566
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,000
Uh...

567
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,000
Relay operators should be...

568
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,000
Very...

569
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,000
Um...

570
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,000
Um...

571
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,000
I don't know...

572
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,000
Very careful or something like that.

573
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,000
Uh...

574
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,000
Very worried about...

575
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,000
Uh...

576
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,000
Keeping this data...

577
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,000
On the...

578
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,000
On the risk of becoming money transmitters...

579
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,000
Or something like that.

580
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,000
You know...

581
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,000
Money operator...

582
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,000
I don't know...

583
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000
Money broker...

584
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,000
Something like that.

585
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,000
Is that...

586
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,000
It's...

587
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,000
It's...

588
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,000
It's data.

589
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,000
Like...

590
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,000
Cashew tokens...

591
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,000
Have been transmitted...

592
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,000
Over wires.

593
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,000
Over bank wires.

594
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,000
Yeah.

595
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,000
On the memo line.

596
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,000
Over emojis.

597
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,000
Over emojis.

598
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,000
That's the thing about data.

599
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,000
It can be...

600
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,000
It can be anything and you can put it into...

601
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,000
In anything.

602
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,000
And it will be put in...

603
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,000
Yes.

604
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,000
Yeah.

605
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,000
It can be 12 words, for example.

606
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,000
It's like...

607
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,000
Data...

608
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,000
Data and data representation are...

609
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,000
Like...

610
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,000
It's...

611
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,000
You can represent any data...

612
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,000
As anything.

613
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,000
It's like...

614
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,000
You can arrange the...

615
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,000
The...

616
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,000
Fucking...

617
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,000
You know...

618
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,000
Like...

619
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,000
Sand corns here on the beach...

620
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,000
To...

621
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,000
You know...

622
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,000
Be a Bitcoin private key, for example.

623
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,000
Or...

624
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,000
What have you.

625
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,000
It's...

626
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,000
Again...

627
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,000
I think...

628
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,000
I feel like...

629
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,000
It's those fundamental things that people don't understand.

630
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,000
Like...

631
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,000
In the world of information...

632
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,000
In cyberspace...

633
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,000
All we have is data...

634
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,000
And the manipulation of data.

635
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,000
That's all we have.

636
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,000
Period.

637
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,000
Period.

638
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,000
The end.

639
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,000
We don't have anything else.

640
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,000
You know...

641
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,000
You know...

642
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,000
From a practical standpoint...

643
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,000
What's very, very interesting...

644
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,000
Like...

645
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,000
I've implemented...

646
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,000
NatSox...

647
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,000
The NIP-60...

648
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,000
The wallet itself...

649
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,000
Many, many, many times...

650
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,000
Already.

651
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,000
And...

652
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,000
Every single time...

653
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,000
You know what's the hardest part?

654
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,000
Like...

655
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,000
Number one challenge I get...

656
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,000
I mean...

657
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,000
Number one is...

658
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,000
The people calling me a shit-coiner...

659
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,000
Every single one...

660
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,000
Is using...

661
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,000
Okay...

662
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,000
Whatever...

663
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,000
Like...

664
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,000
Yeah...

665
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,000
Okay...

666
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,000
Great...

667
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,000
Perfect...

668
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,000
Every single one of the people calling me a shit-coiner...

669
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,000
Every single one...

670
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,000
Is using...

671
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,000
Strike...

672
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,000
Or...

673
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,000
What if it was a Toshi to receive subs?

674
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,000
Okay...

675
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,000
Sure...

676
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,000
Whatever...

677
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,000
It's fine...

678
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,000
It's fine...

679
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,000
Can't delete your money...

680
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,000
Really...

681
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,000
Can't delete your money...

682
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,000
Every single time...

683
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,000
Is...

684
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,000
Oh...

685
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,000
No...

686
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,000
No...

687
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,000
This is super bad...

688
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,000
Because the release can delete your money...

689
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,000
Number one challenge...

690
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,000
Implementing...

691
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,000
NIP-60...

692
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,000
Is...

693
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,000
Receiving...

694
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,000
Too many tokens...

695
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,000
Not too few...

696
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,000
So the...

697
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,000
Token event...

698
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,000
Where you have the money itself...

699
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,000
You want to delete it...

700
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,000
Because you...

701
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,000
Spent it...

702
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,000
And you moved it somewhere else...

703
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,640
sometimes the release will still send you the fucking token.

704
00:27:00,220 --> 00:27:01,480
Because it's on one server.

705
00:27:01,620 --> 00:27:03,040
You have a swarm of relays, basically.

706
00:27:03,380 --> 00:27:03,960
You throw it around.

707
00:27:04,620 --> 00:27:08,560
And then the issue is that now you have to do state reconciliation.

708
00:27:08,860 --> 00:27:12,020
Like, wait, no, this cash, this token, this proof has been spent.

709
00:27:12,420 --> 00:27:14,340
I should not compete as part of my state.

710
00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:18,440
So the hardest challenge is not getting too few tokens.

711
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,040
It's getting too much fucking data.

712
00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:22,700
I actually had to change the...

713
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,300
Because if there is no global, that's actually a super hard problem.

714
00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:27,420
And you have to kind of...

715
00:27:27,420 --> 00:27:28,920
You have to...

716
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,240
With the data you get from the swarm,

717
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,380
you have to figure out what's going on.

718
00:27:33,420 --> 00:27:35,040
And you have to keep a local state, at least.

719
00:27:35,180 --> 00:27:39,780
So I actually changed the NIP 60 maybe like two weeks ago.

720
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,740
Saying, okay, fuck it, I'm done doing state recalculation.

721
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,340
What I'm doing now is when I produce a new token

722
00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:50,500
that obsoletes a previous state,

723
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,180
I say, actually, this other ID, don't compete.

724
00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:55,300
This ID is deleted.

725
00:27:55,420 --> 00:27:57,060
Even if you get it, fucking ignore it.

726
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,500
So now it's like way easier to compute the state.

727
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,440
But what I want to stress is

728
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,120
that the problem is not

729
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:11,340
that the data is being withheld from you.

730
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,900
It's that the data is so fucking easy to copy

731
00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:16,160
that it just spreads everywhere.

732
00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:17,800
It just spreads everywhere.

733
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,540
And that's usually what data does.

734
00:28:20,740 --> 00:28:22,260
That's usually...

735
00:28:22,260 --> 00:28:23,920
That's how information works.

736
00:28:24,660 --> 00:28:25,700
That's how information works.

737
00:28:25,780 --> 00:28:26,560
Information spreads.

738
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,760
So that's where information wants to be free comes from

739
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:31,200
and so on.

740
00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:33,060
And that's why it's so hard,

741
00:28:33,460 --> 00:28:36,800
so, so, so hard to keep keys secret

742
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:37,560
and store them properly.

743
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,140
Because information wants to spread.

744
00:28:39,620 --> 00:28:42,000
It's like it's the only way to move information around

745
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:42,800
is to spread it.

746
00:28:43,420 --> 00:28:45,240
And again, you can't prove deletion.

747
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,560
And so, like, it's...

748
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,540
I must have said this like 500 times in the last 10 years,

749
00:28:50,620 --> 00:28:52,220
but I'm going to say the whole thing again.

750
00:28:52,740 --> 00:28:55,660
So, okay, the difference between an apple and an idea is like...

751
00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:57,020
An information is like an idea.

752
00:28:57,340 --> 00:28:58,200
And the difference is,

753
00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,040
if I have an apple,

754
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,200
if I have an apple and you have an apple,

755
00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:04,100
and I give my apple to you,

756
00:29:04,580 --> 00:29:05,520
you have two apples,

757
00:29:06,020 --> 00:29:06,660
I have zero.

758
00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:08,260
If I have an idea,

759
00:29:08,980 --> 00:29:10,540
and it goes...

760
00:29:10,540 --> 00:29:11,780
I have messed it up already.

761
00:29:11,860 --> 00:29:13,080
So that's how long I didn't say.

762
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,780
If I have an apple and you have an apple,

763
00:29:14,980 --> 00:29:16,620
and we exchange apples,

764
00:29:16,780 --> 00:29:17,800
both of us still have an apple.

765
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,020
If I have an idea and you have an idea,

766
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:21,200
and we exchange ideas,

767
00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:22,320
both of us have two ideas.

768
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,360
So that's...

769
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:24,760
You can already see just with that,

770
00:29:24,820 --> 00:29:26,640
that information only spreads.

771
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,620
It's like because you can't prove deletion,

772
00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:29,840
because all those kind of things.

773
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:31,700
It's like it's very...

774
00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:33,840
It's once your private key is leaked,

775
00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:34,620
you're wrecked.

776
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:35,100
That's it.

777
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:36,020
That's it.

778
00:29:36,020 --> 00:29:37,560
Like you can't go back from that.

779
00:29:37,980 --> 00:29:40,560
It's like some guy probably still has a copy and so on.

780
00:29:40,580 --> 00:29:41,760
That's why it's so, so, so hard.

781
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,320
Like it must never leak.

782
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,000
It's so hard to actually keep it a secret

783
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,160
and all those kind of things.

784
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,040
And it all relates to these things.

785
00:29:49,260 --> 00:29:52,580
Like that's the ground truth of how information works.

786
00:29:52,940 --> 00:29:54,800
And almost all of the confusions

787
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,120
and all the issues that we have stems from that.

788
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,300
Everything you described up to now stems from that.

789
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,260
It's like it's...

790
00:30:02,260 --> 00:30:03,740
Yeah, it's hard to...

791
00:30:03,740 --> 00:30:05,620
Of course you're getting too many proofs,

792
00:30:05,620 --> 00:30:07,840
because the relays are obviously not in sync

793
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:08,840
because there is no global.

794
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,580
So you will get stuff that's outdated

795
00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:12,480
and you'll get a token that's already spent

796
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:13,560
and all those kind of things.

797
00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:16,300
So that's just how it works.

798
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,080
That's just how it works.

799
00:30:20,220 --> 00:30:23,300
We've reached the end of our path.

800
00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:24,020
Yeah.

801
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,200
It's a state intervention

802
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:27,740
stops us from going further.

803
00:30:28,260 --> 00:30:28,920
Such a shame.

804
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:34,800
I'm looking forward to listening to a couple of minutes

805
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:35,660
in the middle

806
00:30:35,660 --> 00:30:37,880
when it's like 10 meter waves and strong winds.

807
00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:40,800
Like you're ranting about nutsabs.

808
00:30:41,020 --> 00:30:42,400
No one can hear a thing probably.

809
00:30:42,980 --> 00:30:43,400
But anyway.

810
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:46,560
No one asks.

811
00:30:47,140 --> 00:30:47,800
What does this mean?

812
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,020
Interesting.

813
00:30:50,140 --> 00:30:50,980
Interesting graffitis.

814
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:52,200
No, but anyway.

815
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,060
I really want to stress this,

816
00:30:54,140 --> 00:30:55,200
because that's also...

817
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,200
That's the kind of...

818
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,220
There's another thing I want to touch on.

819
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,620
Because there is only information

820
00:31:04,620 --> 00:31:06,240
and the manipulation of information

821
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,040
is only data and computation.

822
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,060
It's the only two things we have in cyberspace, period.

823
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,480
And we simulate everything else with that.

824
00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:13,980
We simulate files with that.

825
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:14,940
We simulate folders.

826
00:31:15,180 --> 00:31:16,160
We simulate ownership.

827
00:31:16,620 --> 00:31:18,240
We simulate all those kind of things.

828
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:19,780
We simulate bearer tokens and so on.

829
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,540
It all boils down to there being data

830
00:31:23,540 --> 00:31:24,740
and the manipulation of data.

831
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,460
And so we talked a lot about...

832
00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:28,420
In the courts and so on,

833
00:31:28,460 --> 00:31:30,140
it's like, what can you actually sell

834
00:31:30,140 --> 00:31:31,860
and what is actually scarce and so on.

835
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:33,660
And compute is actually scarce.

836
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,060
The intense manipulation of data is actually scarce.

837
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,100
And that's also how we landed on DVMs,

838
00:31:39,260 --> 00:31:40,380
where it's like, okay,

839
00:31:40,460 --> 00:31:42,240
that's all that DVMs do.

840
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,300
And that's why they are universal in a sense,

841
00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:45,840
because that's all you can do.

842
00:31:46,260 --> 00:31:47,740
It's like data goes in,

843
00:31:47,740 --> 00:31:51,240
and, of course, the novel part is...

844
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:52,900
I mean, the main idea of DVMs

845
00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:55,700
and why I think it should be interesting for developers

846
00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:59,700
is like, we can actually build something like an AWS now

847
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:02,200
without all the bad parts of AWS.

848
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,120
And we can actually build...

849
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,940
And I think it will also scale really well.

850
00:32:07,140 --> 00:32:10,660
And I think the permissionless nature of it,

851
00:32:10,740 --> 00:32:12,740
even though I don't really like that term in a sense,

852
00:32:12,740 --> 00:32:18,580
because you don't have any walls that lock you out.

853
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:19,700
That's the thing.

854
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:20,920
You can't just do stuff,

855
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,360
and you can just have agents use this thing, for example.

856
00:32:24,460 --> 00:32:28,280
And you can just deploy something that runs compute,

857
00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:30,820
and because compute is actually scarce,

858
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:31,940
people will pay for it.

859
00:32:31,940 --> 00:32:34,840
And we saw this already with, like, image generation, for example,

860
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,680
or also text summarization, those kind of things.

861
00:32:37,220 --> 00:32:40,400
All the LLM stuff that's currently the hot shit that's on.

862
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:40,960
Text-to-speech.

863
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:48,720
It doesn't make sense to sign up for a mid-journey plan for a year

864
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,580
to generate, like, three images or whatever.

865
00:32:50,780 --> 00:32:52,080
It's like, if you already have sets,

866
00:32:52,220 --> 00:32:56,900
it's way more sensible to use your Nutsap wallet

867
00:32:56,900 --> 00:33:00,780
to query a DVM, like, have a DVM marketplace,

868
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:01,960
take care of the thing,

869
00:33:02,420 --> 00:33:06,060
and you just pay whatever, like, 100 sets for it, whatever it is.

870
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,280
And that's where all these ideas came from.

871
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:15,040
Yeah, to me, when you say that this can do all the stuff

872
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,640
that AWS can do without all the bad things of AWS,

873
00:33:19,460 --> 00:33:23,640
the other part that, to me, is absolutely fundamental,

874
00:33:23,780 --> 00:33:29,200
and that's why, to me, NIP-89, like the Discovery stuff,

875
00:33:29,540 --> 00:33:32,920
and NIP-90 DVMs are so intertwined.

876
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:38,280
Or rather, NIP-90 depends on NIP-89,

877
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,060
and it was kind of by coincidence

878
00:33:41,060 --> 00:33:44,260
that they landed together in a sequential manner.

879
00:33:44,260 --> 00:33:51,580
The idea that you can produce a new service,

880
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,520
a new algorithm, or whatever it might be,

881
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,520
a new image generation, or text-to-speech,

882
00:33:56,620 --> 00:33:58,640
whatever service you want to provide,

883
00:33:58,980 --> 00:34:00,600
whatever compute you want to produce,

884
00:34:01,020 --> 00:34:06,100
and you can just go in and advertise it via NIP-89,

885
00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:08,120
and it can be immediately available

886
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,480
in any client that supports that specific service.

887
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,540
To me, that is absolutely wild.

888
00:34:14,620 --> 00:34:18,140
It's something that AWS simply cannot do.

889
00:34:18,420 --> 00:34:19,520
Like, there is no fucking way.

890
00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:22,200
Because they have to work in their permission sandbox, basically.

891
00:34:22,540 --> 00:34:23,620
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

892
00:34:23,820 --> 00:34:27,680
Like, how would you build a permissionless discovery layer

893
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,560
where you don't have to know anything

894
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,620
about the person buying the service

895
00:34:31,620 --> 00:34:33,380
or providing the service?

896
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:34,940
You can't do it because micropayments don't work.

897
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,140
You would always have to batch it

898
00:34:36,140 --> 00:34:38,280
until you land until, like, 15 bucks or 20 bucks.

899
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:38,640
Exactly.

900
00:34:38,720 --> 00:34:39,640
That's the main reason.

901
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:40,180
Exactly.

902
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:41,560
Because of that, you need KYC

903
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:42,840
and all those kind of things, and so on.

904
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,360
And so it can't really scale outside of your bounds

905
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:46,680
where you already know your customer

906
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,240
and you already have a credit line to the customer

907
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:49,040
and all those kind of things.

908
00:34:49,140 --> 00:34:51,340
Yeah, it's kind of like what we discussed last week

909
00:34:51,340 --> 00:34:54,800
with the introduction of the 402 HTTP code.

910
00:34:54,820 --> 00:34:55,060
Exactly.

911
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,360
It's like, oh, let's just put, like, an HTTP code.

912
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:58,800
Okay, we'll figure it out next week.

913
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,680
It's like, it might look like a fucking simple problem.

914
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,380
It is a really hard problem.

915
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,620
And because it invites so much complexity,

916
00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:11,220
like solving 402 requires the creation of a blockchain

917
00:35:11,220 --> 00:35:13,600
and mining sites all over the world.

918
00:35:14,060 --> 00:35:15,180
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

919
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,020
And you need, I mean, there is also a reason,

920
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:20,200
and Kelly talks about this beautifully, of course,

921
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,260
but there is also a reason why eCash never took off

922
00:35:24,260 --> 00:35:28,260
because eCash on fiat, basically, like,

923
00:35:28,380 --> 00:35:30,240
it can never be trustless.

924
00:35:30,380 --> 00:35:32,420
It's like, in some sense, it doesn't make sense.

925
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:33,560
Yeah, it would be an upgrade,

926
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,840
but it doesn't fix the fundamental issue.

927
00:35:36,780 --> 00:35:37,920
eCash on Bitcoin, however,

928
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:39,420
it's a completely different story,

929
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,040
and that's why I believe, like, eCash now,

930
00:35:42,180 --> 00:35:44,320
nowadays, now that Bitcoin exists and works

931
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:45,280
and we have all this stuff,

932
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:47,320
eCash actually fixes 402.

933
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:48,880
It actually does.

934
00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:52,060
And I think, I mean, we can already see now

935
00:35:52,060 --> 00:35:52,840
where this is going.

936
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:55,360
Again, like, coming back to NutsApps,

937
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,300
like, the superpower of all this stuff,

938
00:35:57,380 --> 00:36:01,360
the superpower of cryptography in some sense

939
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,280
is that it is self-contained

940
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,520
and you can actually, you can simulate identity,

941
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:08,600
you can simulate ownership,

942
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,580
and you can simulate all those things

943
00:36:10,580 --> 00:36:13,720
that we just discussed just with cryptography,

944
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,140
but the implication is,

945
00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:18,760
and that's something that I think

946
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,880
lots of people on our side are also still confused,

947
00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:23,400
and every time new people come in,

948
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:24,400
they will be confused again.

949
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:26,500
The only way it works

950
00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:30,700
is if people take the responsibility

951
00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:32,440
upon themselves to custody the keys.

952
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:35,020
Yes, we can have fancy constructs

953
00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:36,640
with, you know, Multisig and Frost

954
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:37,240
and other things

955
00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:38,700
where you have collaborative custody models,

956
00:36:38,780 --> 00:36:40,000
potentially, and all those kind of things,

957
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,960
but everything flies out the window

958
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,740
if you don't hold your own keys.

959
00:36:44,820 --> 00:36:44,980
Yes.

960
00:36:45,420 --> 00:36:46,680
Everything flies out the window.

961
00:36:47,180 --> 00:36:49,680
It's like we revert to the old model,

962
00:36:50,580 --> 00:36:54,600
and that's kind of what you have to consider

963
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,620
in your design space

964
00:36:56,620 --> 00:36:58,800
if you build something out in this world.

965
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,740
Like, that's the fundamental truth of the matter.

966
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,460
It's like the freedom that those things provide

967
00:37:07,460 --> 00:37:08,920
only come if people,

968
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,260
if each individual takes the responsibility

969
00:37:11,260 --> 00:37:13,060
of holding their own keys,

970
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:13,920
of keeping them secret,

971
00:37:14,220 --> 00:37:17,160
and of taking care of, you know,

972
00:37:17,220 --> 00:37:18,440
their self-sovereign secrets.

973
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:21,480
I'm ranting again.

974
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:22,680
I feel like I'm only ranting.

975
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,640
It's interesting because when we,

976
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,460
so we started working on the spec for Blossom

977
00:37:32,460 --> 00:37:35,760
to do payments in some way,

978
00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:37,380
either when you publish something,

979
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,060
when you upload something,

980
00:37:39,140 --> 00:37:40,520
or when you get something,

981
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:43,500
you can include some payment.

982
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,480
And Quentin was working on the spec,

983
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,580
and he initially built it with Lightning.

984
00:37:51,580 --> 00:37:54,160
So, on the HTTP header,

985
00:37:55,220 --> 00:37:57,300
there was a negotiation step

986
00:37:57,300 --> 00:38:01,120
where you would get a Bolt 11 Lightning invoice

987
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,820
from the Blossom server,

988
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:05,880
and then you would pay it,

989
00:38:06,220 --> 00:38:07,800
and then you would provide the pre-image

990
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,920
on the HTTP header.

991
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:09,620
It was something like that.

992
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,020
Which is extremely fucking common, too.

993
00:38:14,020 --> 00:38:15,360
And it requires both parties

994
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,340
to be online at the same time,

995
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:17,220
all those kind of things.

996
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:17,960
It requires a secret.

997
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,400
It requires an exchange.

998
00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:19,880
Exactly.

999
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,620
It requires a negotiation step.

1000
00:38:21,620 --> 00:38:22,480
It requires the whole dance.

1001
00:38:22,780 --> 00:38:24,200
And LNURL has the same problem

1002
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:24,780
where you have, like,

1003
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:25,900
all this talking

1004
00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:27,700
and all this exchanging of information.

1005
00:38:28,740 --> 00:38:30,780
And when we looked at it,

1006
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:31,100
it was like,

1007
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:32,780
huh, yeah,

1008
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,100
maybe cashew would be a better fit.

1009
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:37,620
And it's literally,

1010
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:38,880
you do the get,

1011
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:39,740
or you do the post,

1012
00:38:39,780 --> 00:38:40,980
and you put the cashew in there,

1013
00:38:41,020 --> 00:38:42,180
and okay, thank you, goodbye.

1014
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:42,940
And that's it.

1015
00:38:42,940 --> 00:38:44,420
There is no negotiation step.

1016
00:38:44,540 --> 00:38:45,300
Here it is.

1017
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:45,660
Yeah.

1018
00:38:45,740 --> 00:38:46,480
Here's the proof.

1019
00:38:46,860 --> 00:38:47,080
Yeah.

1020
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:48,080
And that's,

1021
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:48,980
again,

1022
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:50,940
I feel like we figured all this out

1023
00:38:50,940 --> 00:38:53,700
over the thousands

1024
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:55,160
and thousands of years of civilization.

1025
00:38:55,340 --> 00:38:56,420
That's why we have coins

1026
00:38:56,420 --> 00:38:57,340
in the first place.

1027
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:58,340
You know?

1028
00:38:58,480 --> 00:38:59,280
It's like,

1029
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,180
having a bearer token

1030
00:39:02,180 --> 00:39:04,080
is actually an insane innovation

1031
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,940
because you don't rely

1032
00:39:05,940 --> 00:39:06,840
on a central party

1033
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,120
to tell you the truth of the matter,

1034
00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:09,060
which is always wrong.

1035
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:10,620
Like, whatever is on the clay tablet

1036
00:39:10,620 --> 00:39:11,400
is always wrong

1037
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:12,600
because you always have

1038
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:13,120
to come together

1039
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:13,320
and reconcile it.

1040
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:14,320
And it's always political too.

1041
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:15,060
Yeah, of course.

1042
00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:18,440
And the people

1043
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,060
who are the entry lines

1044
00:39:20,060 --> 00:39:21,020
on the clay tablets,

1045
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:22,940
they are completely bound

1046
00:39:22,940 --> 00:39:23,620
to the person

1047
00:39:23,620 --> 00:39:24,480
who controls the tablet.

1048
00:39:24,820 --> 00:39:25,280
And that's why

1049
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,180
we landed on coins

1050
00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:27,140
and then later notes

1051
00:39:27,140 --> 00:39:27,960
and all those kind of things.

1052
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:28,500
But it is,

1053
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,660
having a bearer instrument

1054
00:39:30,660 --> 00:39:32,460
actually solves this problem.

1055
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:33,000
And I mean,

1056
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:34,560
everyone should know

1057
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:34,860
that like,

1058
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:36,160
the market,

1059
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:37,260
tapping into

1060
00:39:37,260 --> 00:39:38,180
the distributed cognition

1061
00:39:38,180 --> 00:39:38,660
of the market

1062
00:39:38,660 --> 00:39:39,240
is actually

1063
00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:39,820
what makes

1064
00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:40,880
a complex society work

1065
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,080
and all those kind of things

1066
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:42,500
and so on.

1067
00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:43,180
And so the money

1068
00:39:43,180 --> 00:39:44,440
also needs to be distributed.

1069
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:45,680
That's what coins actually are

1070
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:46,580
and so on and so forth.

1071
00:39:46,980 --> 00:39:48,280
But for something simple

1072
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,620
like paying for an API call,

1073
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,940
that becomes readily apparent again.

1074
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,180
That's why I mentioned

1075
00:39:53,180 --> 00:39:53,380
like,

1076
00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:54,920
without the bad things

1077
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:55,420
of AWS,

1078
00:39:55,660 --> 00:39:56,720
AWS is in charge.

1079
00:39:56,820 --> 00:39:58,460
AWS has the clay tablet.

1080
00:39:58,580 --> 00:39:59,160
Oh, 100%.

1081
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:00,000
Or Visa or MasterCard

1082
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:00,480
or what have you.

1083
00:40:00,900 --> 00:40:02,300
And if they don't like you,

1084
00:40:02,340 --> 00:40:03,200
they can kick you out.

1085
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:04,920
And I mean...

1086
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:05,240
Oh, they do.

1087
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:05,900
What do you do?

1088
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:06,920
They absolutely do.

1089
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:07,120
They look,

1090
00:40:07,260 --> 00:40:09,100
they cancel my Amazon account.

1091
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:10,300
Oh, I'm not surprised.

1092
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:10,760
I mean,

1093
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:11,560
I'm not surprised.

1094
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:12,060
Look at you.

1095
00:40:12,380 --> 00:40:13,600
You look like a terrorist.

1096
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:16,120
No,

1097
00:40:16,340 --> 00:40:18,140
but that's the thing,

1098
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:18,440
you know,

1099
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:19,340
and I feel like

1100
00:40:19,340 --> 00:40:19,820
we learned this

1101
00:40:19,820 --> 00:40:20,880
over and over and over again

1102
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,380
over the course of history.

1103
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:24,900
And it's having a bearer talking.

1104
00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:26,400
It is so much simpler,

1105
00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:26,880
but yes,

1106
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:27,900
it requires responsibility.

1107
00:40:28,340 --> 00:40:29,200
You have to

1108
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:30,400
actually figure out

1109
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:30,680
and we,

1110
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:32,700
no one thinks about this,

1111
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:33,200
you know,

1112
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:34,100
you don't take

1113
00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:35,100
all your wealth

1114
00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:36,240
in your like

1115
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:37,840
pocket money wallet

1116
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:38,440
with you

1117
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:39,480
because that's one

1118
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:40,000
of the criticisms

1119
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:40,580
of Nutsapps,

1120
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:41,020
for example.

1121
00:40:41,180 --> 00:40:41,360
It's like,

1122
00:40:41,580 --> 00:40:41,960
oh no,

1123
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:42,620
it's so unsecure.

1124
00:40:42,860 --> 00:40:43,120
Yes,

1125
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:44,080
so is the money

1126
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:44,680
in your pocket.

1127
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:46,120
Someone might rob you.

1128
00:40:46,340 --> 00:40:47,300
You might lose it.

1129
00:40:47,540 --> 00:40:48,800
It might go under the couch

1130
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:49,700
and then it's gone

1131
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:50,260
and you're poor.

1132
00:40:50,380 --> 00:40:51,060
Oh my Lord,

1133
00:40:51,140 --> 00:40:51,300
no,

1134
00:40:51,380 --> 00:40:52,280
what are we going to do?

1135
00:40:52,780 --> 00:40:53,580
But the alternative

1136
00:40:53,580 --> 00:40:54,460
is so much worse.

1137
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:55,380
The alternative

1138
00:40:55,380 --> 00:40:56,020
is so much worse.

1139
00:40:56,140 --> 00:40:56,260
Yeah,

1140
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:57,060
you have to take care

1141
00:40:57,060 --> 00:40:57,760
of your own money.

1142
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:58,560
And like,

1143
00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:59,300
if there's a,

1144
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:00,420
if you have like

1145
00:41:00,420 --> 00:41:01,280
bars of gold,

1146
00:41:01,460 --> 00:41:02,420
put them in a safe.

1147
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:03,620
You know,

1148
00:41:03,780 --> 00:41:04,340
for example.

1149
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:04,980
Like,

1150
00:41:04,980 --> 00:41:06,260
don't carry them around

1151
00:41:06,260 --> 00:41:07,020
in your back pocket.

1152
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:07,780
You know,

1153
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:08,280
it's like,

1154
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:09,040
ah,

1155
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:09,240
well,

1156
00:41:09,340 --> 00:41:09,580
anyway,

1157
00:41:09,820 --> 00:41:10,060
again,

1158
00:41:10,380 --> 00:41:10,680
this is,

1159
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:11,680
ah,

1160
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:12,480
it feels cathartic

1161
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:13,700
to rant about this stuff.

1162
00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:13,920
No,

1163
00:41:13,980 --> 00:41:15,740
but what I find

1164
00:41:15,740 --> 00:41:16,880
absolutely fascinating

1165
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:17,520
is the fact

1166
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:18,180
that

1167
00:41:18,180 --> 00:41:20,840
had we worked

1168
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,180
on Blossom

1169
00:41:22,180 --> 00:41:23,520
before

1170
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,480
any type of

1171
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:25,840
e-cash

1172
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,160
was really available,

1173
00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:29,020
the solution

1174
00:41:29,020 --> 00:41:29,660
would have been

1175
00:41:29,660 --> 00:41:30,980
very hard.

1176
00:41:31,460 --> 00:41:31,820
The solution,

1177
00:41:31,820 --> 00:41:32,420
like,

1178
00:41:32,540 --> 00:41:33,000
even going,

1179
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:33,820
even assuming

1180
00:41:33,820 --> 00:41:34,700
Lightning is there,

1181
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,100
the solution

1182
00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:36,780
of having

1183
00:41:36,780 --> 00:41:37,540
this negotiation

1184
00:41:37,540 --> 00:41:37,980
to get the

1185
00:41:37,980 --> 00:41:38,440
Vault 11,

1186
00:41:38,860 --> 00:41:39,360
or even if you

1187
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:39,940
go Vault 12,

1188
00:41:40,020 --> 00:41:40,140
right,

1189
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:40,560
it's kind of,

1190
00:41:40,580 --> 00:41:40,760
I mean,

1191
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:41,260
it's kind of the same.

1192
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:43,420
You need to get

1193
00:41:43,420 --> 00:41:44,220
a payment request

1194
00:41:44,220 --> 00:41:45,680
in some way

1195
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:46,820
and then send it

1196
00:41:46,820 --> 00:41:47,340
and then send it

1197
00:41:47,340 --> 00:41:47,780
pretty much.

1198
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:48,420
Like,

1199
00:41:49,020 --> 00:41:49,920
there is a lot

1200
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:50,480
of complexity

1201
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:51,320
and there is a lot

1202
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:52,340
of interactivity there.

1203
00:41:52,980 --> 00:41:53,560
And there's a lot

1204
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:54,580
of stuff that can go wrong.

1205
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:55,600
And there's a lot

1206
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:56,280
of stuff that can go,

1207
00:41:56,340 --> 00:41:56,760
absolutely.

1208
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:57,700
And we know

1209
00:41:57,700 --> 00:41:57,980
that,

1210
00:41:57,980 --> 00:41:58,320
that,

1211
00:41:58,320 --> 00:41:58,940
that,

1212
00:41:58,940 --> 00:41:59,360
that,

1213
00:41:59,360 --> 00:41:59,380
that,

1214
00:41:59,380 --> 00:41:59,400
that,

1215
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:00,600
you go back

1216
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:00,980
and forth

1217
00:42:00,980 --> 00:42:01,800
like 15 times

1218
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:02,540
with this handshake.

1219
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:03,240
If any,

1220
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:03,520
every,

1221
00:42:03,660 --> 00:42:04,540
any single connection

1222
00:42:04,540 --> 00:42:05,660
or any peer drops,

1223
00:42:05,820 --> 00:42:06,440
then it's like,

1224
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:06,980
you have to start

1225
00:42:06,980 --> 00:42:07,480
all over again.

1226
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:07,820
Everything.

1227
00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:09,040
And that state

1228
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:10,000
that you need to control

1229
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:10,660
and you need to,

1230
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:10,940
okay,

1231
00:42:10,940 --> 00:42:11,940
how do I gracefully

1232
00:42:11,940 --> 00:42:12,600
handle this error?

1233
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:13,760
It,

1234
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:14,760
it is a lot

1235
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:15,360
of complexity.

1236
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:16,880
And,

1237
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:17,700
and now,

1238
00:42:17,820 --> 00:42:18,860
we just reached

1239
00:42:18,860 --> 00:42:19,540
for the tool

1240
00:42:19,540 --> 00:42:20,680
and the tool

1241
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:21,220
was there.

1242
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:22,960
And it's so simple.

1243
00:42:23,140 --> 00:42:24,440
It literally is,

1244
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:24,680
I think,

1245
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:25,780
it's just a payment header.

1246
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:26,360
Here,

1247
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:27,000
here it is.

1248
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:27,240
It,

1249
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:28,760
it is so simple.

1250
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:29,600
Yes,

1251
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:30,860
you don't send

1252
00:42:30,860 --> 00:42:31,740
one Bitcoin there.

1253
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:33,500
It's not for that.

1254
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:34,360
Send,

1255
00:42:34,580 --> 00:42:34,900
you know,

1256
00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:36,140
a thousand sats

1257
00:42:36,140 --> 00:42:36,980
or one sat

1258
00:42:36,980 --> 00:42:37,460
or whatever.

1259
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:38,180
Uh,

1260
00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:39,620
and everyone

1261
00:42:39,620 --> 00:42:40,540
has to model the risk

1262
00:42:40,540 --> 00:42:41,320
in whatever way

1263
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:41,540
they,

1264
00:42:41,540 --> 00:42:42,160
they see fit.

1265
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:43,460
And people absolutely can.

1266
00:42:43,780 --> 00:42:44,920
People absolutely can

1267
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:46,000
figure this out

1268
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:46,760
and model the risk

1269
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:47,240
as you say

1270
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:47,660
and so on.

1271
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:47,860
That's,

1272
00:42:47,860 --> 00:42:48,700
that's why people

1273
00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:49,400
are okay

1274
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:50,560
with running around

1275
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:50,960
with money

1276
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:51,460
in their pocket.

1277
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:52,680
And they're just

1278
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:53,240
going to take

1279
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:53,920
whatever they need

1280
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:54,400
for the day

1281
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:54,900
or for the next

1282
00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:55,600
two or three days

1283
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:56,000
or whatever.

1284
00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:56,740
It's like,

1285
00:42:56,820 --> 00:42:57,480
it's not a,

1286
00:42:58,020 --> 00:42:58,640
I feel like we,

1287
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:00,780
people,

1288
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:01,500
you know,

1289
00:43:01,900 --> 00:43:03,240
contrary to popular belief,

1290
00:43:03,380 --> 00:43:03,520
like,

1291
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,120
people are capable,

1292
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:05,660
I think,

1293
00:43:05,860 --> 00:43:07,980
to figure this out.

1294
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:08,700
Just,

1295
00:43:08,780 --> 00:43:09,720
just allow them to,

1296
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:11,460
allow them,

1297
00:43:11,580 --> 00:43:12,240
give them the tools

1298
00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:13,020
and allow them,

1299
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:13,840
give them space

1300
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:14,520
and time to learn

1301
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:15,320
and figure it out.

1302
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:15,580
Yeah,

1303
00:43:15,580 --> 00:43:15,740
yeah,

1304
00:43:15,740 --> 00:43:16,080
absolutely.

1305
00:43:16,660 --> 00:43:17,060
One,

1306
00:43:17,180 --> 00:43:17,940
one more thing,

1307
00:43:17,980 --> 00:43:18,840
since we already

1308
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:19,720
opened the topic.

1309
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:20,300
The,

1310
00:43:20,380 --> 00:43:21,180
yesterday,

1311
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:22,180
last night,

1312
00:43:22,180 --> 00:43:23,160
Kali,

1313
00:43:23,340 --> 00:43:24,180
which is to me

1314
00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:25,340
one of the coolest

1315
00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:25,840
things,

1316
00:43:25,940 --> 00:43:26,440
not subs,

1317
00:43:27,180 --> 00:43:28,420
Kali said something

1318
00:43:28,420 --> 00:43:28,740
like,

1319
00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:29,860
it's really cool

1320
00:43:29,860 --> 00:43:31,220
that you can,

1321
00:43:31,780 --> 00:43:32,600
you know the sub

1322
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:33,340
is there

1323
00:43:33,340 --> 00:43:34,560
without waiting

1324
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,220
for the lightning node

1325
00:43:36,220 --> 00:43:36,800
to respond,

1326
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:37,920
to publish the event

1327
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:38,640
with the sub receive.

1328
00:43:38,980 --> 00:43:39,560
So the way

1329
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:40,440
subs work,

1330
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:41,900
like lightning subs,

1331
00:43:42,020 --> 00:43:42,260
the way,

1332
00:43:42,340 --> 00:43:43,240
the way they work is,

1333
00:43:43,340 --> 00:43:44,460
you get,

1334
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:45,020
you talk,

1335
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:45,360
you say,

1336
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:46,280
I want to sub Gigi,

1337
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:47,180
I look at,

1338
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:47,400
okay,

1339
00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:48,400
what he's Luke 16,

1340
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:49,140
he's LN URL

1341
00:43:49,140 --> 00:43:49,720
or whatever,

1342
00:43:50,420 --> 00:43:51,320
I talk to that,

1343
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:52,040
I get,

1344
00:43:52,180 --> 00:43:53,420
after some negotiation,

1345
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:54,000
I get,

1346
00:43:54,140 --> 00:43:54,800
I get a,

1347
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,340
a payment request.

1348
00:43:56,500 --> 00:43:57,080
Which makes them

1349
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:57,920
even more trustless.

1350
00:43:58,520 --> 00:43:59,560
You don't have to trust.

1351
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:00,480
That was my point.

1352
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:00,640
Yeah.

1353
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,280
That was exactly my point.

1354
00:44:02,380 --> 00:44:03,360
You don't have to trust

1355
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,220
whoever is signing

1356
00:44:04,220 --> 00:44:04,920
the message that you,

1357
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:05,320
you got,

1358
00:44:05,380 --> 00:44:06,180
that's up in those things.

1359
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:06,560
And,

1360
00:44:06,660 --> 00:44:08,100
and actually handling,

1361
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,020
handling,

1362
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:11,800
the validation

1363
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,500
of lightning subs,

1364
00:44:14,220 --> 00:44:14,560
it's,

1365
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:15,300
it's really hard.

1366
00:44:15,380 --> 00:44:15,520
Like,

1367
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:16,380
if you read the spec,

1368
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,660
there are so many steps.

1369
00:44:17,660 --> 00:44:19,060
And the,

1370
00:44:19,060 --> 00:44:19,580
the,

1371
00:44:19,580 --> 00:44:21,700
the signer of the SAP

1372
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:23,240
is not the recipient,

1373
00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:25,040
it's not the sender.

1374
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:25,740
It's Albi.

1375
00:44:25,860 --> 00:44:26,740
It's Albi.

1376
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,040
It's either Albi

1377
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:28,880
or Primal

1378
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:30,220
or Wallis of Satoshi.

1379
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:30,760
That's it.

1380
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:32,720
That's all we have.

1381
00:44:33,660 --> 00:44:34,180
And,

1382
00:44:34,220 --> 00:44:34,900
and it's so weird.

1383
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:35,680
And I actually,

1384
00:44:36,020 --> 00:44:36,480
um,

1385
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:37,660
re-implemented,

1386
00:44:37,820 --> 00:44:38,640
I refactored,

1387
00:44:38,660 --> 00:44:39,180
um,

1388
00:44:39,980 --> 00:44:40,700
SAPs on,

1389
00:44:40,740 --> 00:44:41,860
on Ola's yesterday.

1390
00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:43,100
And,

1391
00:44:43,180 --> 00:44:44,040
and I had a bag

1392
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,260
and the,

1393
00:44:46,260 --> 00:44:46,700
um,

1394
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:47,660
the avatar,

1395
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:47,980
the,

1396
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:48,180
the,

1397
00:44:48,180 --> 00:44:48,540
the,

1398
00:44:48,540 --> 00:44:49,860
the icon that it was showing

1399
00:44:49,860 --> 00:44:51,380
as the sender of the SAP

1400
00:44:51,380 --> 00:44:52,560
was the,

1401
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:53,100
the sapper.

1402
00:44:53,260 --> 00:44:55,980
So I was seeing a bunch of Albi icons.

1403
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:56,920
Okay.

1404
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:58,080
Because it was,

1405
00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:59,000
I was getting the wrong,

1406
00:44:59,220 --> 00:45:00,460
because I was using the pub key

1407
00:45:00,460 --> 00:45:02,360
of the person publishing the SAP receipt,

1408
00:45:02,580 --> 00:45:03,420
which is wrong.

1409
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:04,220
Um,

1410
00:45:04,740 --> 00:45:06,180
and you're not waiting,

1411
00:45:06,260 --> 00:45:07,180
like when you send the SAP,

1412
00:45:07,220 --> 00:45:08,040
you send the payment

1413
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,380
and then you just wait

1414
00:45:09,380 --> 00:45:11,080
to see if you get a SAP receipt.

1415
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,540
And with this is,

1416
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,000
if you publish the SAP,

1417
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:16,260
that is the SAP receipt.

1418
00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:18,440
Like the publishing of the money is,

1419
00:45:18,460 --> 00:45:18,800
it's better.

1420
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:19,200
It's better.

1421
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:19,940
And that's,

1422
00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:20,300
that's,

1423
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,020
I think the,

1424
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:23,940
the,

1425
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:24,640
again,

1426
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:25,460
the issue is,

1427
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:26,540
the issue is that

1428
00:45:26,540 --> 00:45:29,000
all you have is data

1429
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,240
and the manipulation of data.

1430
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:31,760
And so the best you can do,

1431
00:45:31,820 --> 00:45:32,660
the best we can do,

1432
00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:33,700
and I think we should do it

1433
00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:35,160
everywhere we can,

1434
00:45:35,220 --> 00:45:35,600
basically.

1435
00:45:35,820 --> 00:45:36,380
It's like,

1436
00:45:36,380 --> 00:45:38,120
you can simulate ownership,

1437
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:38,640
so to speak.

1438
00:45:38,740 --> 00:45:40,260
You can simulate bearer tokens

1439
00:45:40,260 --> 00:45:41,840
with public key cryptography.

1440
00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:42,860
But again,

1441
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:43,620
that implies,

1442
00:45:43,740 --> 00:45:45,040
that implies that you are actually

1443
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:45,840
in control of the key.

1444
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:46,320
Otherwise,

1445
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:47,120
everything falls out,

1446
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:48,080
falls out the window.

1447
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:49,160
Then we're back to like Facebook

1448
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:49,760
and Twitter and whatever.

1449
00:45:50,620 --> 00:45:50,920
And so,

1450
00:45:50,980 --> 00:45:51,160
so,

1451
00:45:51,220 --> 00:45:51,600
so if,

1452
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:52,080
if,

1453
00:45:52,740 --> 00:45:53,700
if we manage to,

1454
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:54,740
to build this new world

1455
00:45:54,740 --> 00:45:55,740
and we build tools

1456
00:45:55,740 --> 00:45:56,420
that make it easier

1457
00:45:56,420 --> 00:45:57,040
to actually,

1458
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:57,460
you know,

1459
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:58,260
um,

1460
00:45:58,480 --> 00:45:58,780
uh,

1461
00:45:58,780 --> 00:45:59,840
hold your key securely

1462
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:00,160
and so on.

1463
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:00,940
And I think we're getting there.

1464
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:01,280
Like I,

1465
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:01,940
I love Amber,

1466
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:02,520
for example.

1467
00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:03,020
Oh yeah.

1468
00:46:03,060 --> 00:46:03,440
It's like,

1469
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:03,820
you know,

1470
00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:04,260
I'm,

1471
00:46:04,460 --> 00:46:06,380
the UX of Amber is,

1472
00:46:06,540 --> 00:46:07,040
it's great.

1473
00:46:07,420 --> 00:46:08,140
Absolutely incredible.

1474
00:46:08,140 --> 00:46:08,260
You actually,

1475
00:46:08,420 --> 00:46:09,480
you have a secure enclave

1476
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:10,880
and your key is only in there

1477
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:11,440
and you have a sign.

1478
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:11,620
It's,

1479
00:46:11,620 --> 00:46:12,160
it's like a,

1480
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:13,560
it's like for people

1481
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:14,580
who don't know what Amber is,

1482
00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:14,960
uh,

1483
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:15,260
it's,

1484
00:46:15,260 --> 00:46:15,520
it's,

1485
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:16,680
it's for iOS people,

1486
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:17,520
for iOS people,

1487
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:18,660
like my Apple fanboys.

1488
00:46:18,820 --> 00:46:19,320
Oh my Lord.

1489
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:20,840
It's,

1490
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:21,780
it's like a hardware wallet

1491
00:46:21,780 --> 00:46:22,720
in your phone.

1492
00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:23,600
It's like,

1493
00:46:23,660 --> 00:46:25,100
the hardware is in your phone.

1494
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:25,600
You know?

1495
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:25,960
So,

1496
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:27,100
kind of.

1497
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:27,920
Any case,

1498
00:46:27,980 --> 00:46:28,380
he's going to hate me

1499
00:46:28,380 --> 00:46:28,900
for saying this.

1500
00:46:29,140 --> 00:46:29,540
But anyway,

1501
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:30,960
that's how you can think about it.

1502
00:46:30,980 --> 00:46:31,640
He will never listen to this anyway.

1503
00:46:31,860 --> 00:46:32,300
Oh no,

1504
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:33,040
like he,

1505
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:33,340
he,

1506
00:46:33,340 --> 00:46:34,860
he does his own boring thing

1507
00:46:34,860 --> 00:46:35,840
where he reads changelogs

1508
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:36,500
for three hours

1509
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:37,460
and he doesn't listen

1510
00:46:37,460 --> 00:46:38,200
to anything else.

1511
00:46:40,340 --> 00:46:41,020
That's fine.

1512
00:46:42,220 --> 00:46:42,360
But,

1513
00:46:42,420 --> 00:46:42,900
but anyway,

1514
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:43,220
it's,

1515
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:43,500
it's,

1516
00:46:43,740 --> 00:46:44,080
it's,

1517
00:46:44,180 --> 00:46:45,600
if you can,

1518
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,000
if you can do a better thing,

1519
00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:50,360
you should do a better thing

1520
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:51,680
because everything else

1521
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,460
implies keeping track of state,

1522
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:54,800
implies keeping track,

1523
00:46:54,860 --> 00:46:55,380
in the worst case,

1524
00:46:55,420 --> 00:46:56,980
of like a quasi global state,

1525
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:58,020
all those kind of things.

1526
00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,040
It implies negotiation.

1527
00:46:59,420 --> 00:46:59,740
Authority.

1528
00:47:00,100 --> 00:47:01,140
You fall back to,

1529
00:47:01,180 --> 00:47:02,200
to credit and authority

1530
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:02,800
in some sense.

1531
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,140
And so if you can simulate,

1532
00:47:05,140 --> 00:47:06,120
if you,

1533
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:06,920
if you can't do better,

1534
00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:07,440
do better.

1535
00:47:08,860 --> 00:47:09,440
That's it.

1536
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:10,300
So,

1537
00:47:10,380 --> 00:47:11,940
so when,

1538
00:47:12,020 --> 00:47:12,520
um,

1539
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:13,240
during,

1540
00:47:13,380 --> 00:47:13,680
um,

1541
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:15,480
during Miami,

1542
00:47:16,060 --> 00:47:17,120
the Miami conference,

1543
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:17,760
the,

1544
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:18,920
they had like the,

1545
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:19,940
the,

1546
00:47:19,940 --> 00:47:21,580
the big screens with,

1547
00:47:21,740 --> 00:47:22,120
um,

1548
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:23,340
in the expo area

1549
00:47:23,340 --> 00:47:24,780
and they were showing sub life.

1550
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:25,020
Yeah.

1551
00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:29,120
And someone started publishing

1552
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,580
a bunch of fake,

1553
00:47:30,580 --> 00:47:31,200
uh,

1554
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:31,540
subs,

1555
00:47:31,540 --> 00:47:32,540
um,

1556
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:33,420
which are,

1557
00:47:33,420 --> 00:47:36,380
it's really hard to identify.

1558
00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:36,900
Yeah.

1559
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:37,860
It's really,

1560
00:47:38,060 --> 00:47:39,080
really fucking hard.

1561
00:47:39,340 --> 00:47:40,040
I mean,

1562
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:41,040
it's kind of impossible

1563
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:41,540
to identify.

1564
00:47:41,540 --> 00:47:43,200
Did Carmen do a sap of like,

1565
00:47:43,300 --> 00:47:43,560
uh,

1566
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,340
more than 21 million a ton or something?

1567
00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:47,780
That tells you that something's wrong.

1568
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,040
It's the famous inflation thing.

1569
00:47:51,460 --> 00:47:51,860
Uh,

1570
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,360
the 2010 inflation back.

1571
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:54,400
Um,

1572
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:55,600
the,

1573
00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:56,120
um,

1574
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,140
so what was my solution?

1575
00:47:58,460 --> 00:47:58,660
Like,

1576
00:47:58,660 --> 00:47:59,320
because I was,

1577
00:47:59,380 --> 00:48:00,000
I was in the,

1578
00:48:00,220 --> 00:48:01,100
I was at the conference.

1579
00:48:01,100 --> 00:48:01,760
I didn't have,

1580
00:48:01,980 --> 00:48:02,240
I mean,

1581
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:02,520
I,

1582
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:05,060
you really cannot,

1583
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:06,560
um,

1584
00:48:07,020 --> 00:48:08,100
demonstrate that,

1585
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,040
that the data is,

1586
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:09,780
that the,

1587
00:48:09,780 --> 00:48:10,920
that the sap is real

1588
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:11,520
in,

1589
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:11,820
in,

1590
00:48:11,820 --> 00:48:12,460
in lightning subs.

1591
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:13,440
Um,

1592
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:14,760
but,

1593
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:15,220
uh,

1594
00:48:15,260 --> 00:48:15,940
what was my solution?

1595
00:48:16,180 --> 00:48:16,400
Like,

1596
00:48:16,460 --> 00:48:17,520
my solution was literally

1597
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:18,740
to just white list

1598
00:48:18,740 --> 00:48:20,360
a bunch of supper pockets.

1599
00:48:20,540 --> 00:48:21,120
I white listed.

1600
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:21,980
You became the authority.

1601
00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:23,040
Yeah,

1602
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:23,220
you,

1603
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:23,400
my,

1604
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:23,600
my,

1605
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:23,980
yes.

1606
00:48:24,140 --> 00:48:24,300
Yeah,

1607
00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:24,520
yeah.

1608
00:48:24,580 --> 00:48:25,440
You're the authority

1609
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:26,040
and you gave,

1610
00:48:26,140 --> 00:48:26,540
I said,

1611
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:26,820
okay,

1612
00:48:27,180 --> 00:48:28,220
so I'll be real.

1613
00:48:28,380 --> 00:48:29,440
Wallet of Satoshi is real.

1614
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:30,760
So what happened?

1615
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,220
The self-custodial lining,

1616
00:48:33,540 --> 00:48:34,080
like the people

1617
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:35,140
that were doing it right

1618
00:48:35,140 --> 00:48:36,200
were not showing up

1619
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:36,580
on sublet.

1620
00:48:36,720 --> 00:48:38,020
That's the issue.

1621
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:38,340
You,

1622
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:39,340
you turned yourself

1623
00:48:39,340 --> 00:48:39,740
into,

1624
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,400
into the,

1625
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:41,960
the,

1626
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:43,120
the BIS basically.

1627
00:48:43,220 --> 00:48:43,380
But,

1628
00:48:43,420 --> 00:48:45,080
but I didn't have a way

1629
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,060
of saying

1630
00:48:46,060 --> 00:48:47,000
this,

1631
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,520
this is a real sap.

1632
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:49,480
Even within

1633
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:50,220
Wave of Trust

1634
00:48:50,220 --> 00:48:51,000
or whatever,

1635
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:51,360
like,

1636
00:48:51,820 --> 00:48:53,840
there is no way.

1637
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:54,840
Um,

1638
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:56,220
yeah,

1639
00:48:56,260 --> 00:48:56,740
those are actually

1640
00:48:56,740 --> 00:48:57,260
hard problems.

1641
00:48:57,260 --> 00:48:57,860
Yes.

1642
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:58,500
I mean,

1643
00:48:58,640 --> 00:48:59,840
that one in particular

1644
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:00,520
is unsoldable.

1645
00:49:00,980 --> 00:49:01,120
Yeah.

1646
00:49:03,700 --> 00:49:04,900
So why do you think,

1647
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:05,700
why do you think

1648
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:06,940
people hate nuts ups so much?

1649
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,020
I think,

1650
00:49:09,020 --> 00:49:09,760
I think most people

1651
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:10,280
love them.

1652
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:11,680
It's just a few people.

1653
00:49:12,020 --> 00:49:12,240
I mean,

1654
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:13,020
some loud people.

1655
00:49:13,260 --> 00:49:13,680
Some very,

1656
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:15,000
some very loud people.

1657
00:49:15,300 --> 00:49:15,880
It's,

1658
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:16,400
yeah,

1659
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,400
I think,

1660
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:19,240
I think it's a,

1661
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:20,460
it's a natural evolution

1662
00:49:20,460 --> 00:49:21,220
in some sense

1663
00:49:21,220 --> 00:49:22,360
of all the stuff

1664
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:23,160
that was built out

1665
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:23,700
so far.

1666
00:49:23,860 --> 00:49:24,780
Because in the end,

1667
00:49:24,780 --> 00:49:25,280
it's like,

1668
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:25,840
what do you want

1669
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:26,440
to have happen?

1670
00:49:26,980 --> 00:49:27,360
And I think

1671
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:27,920
what is the,

1672
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:29,300
what's one of the

1673
00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:30,480
superpowers

1674
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:31,480
of any

1675
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:32,680
cryptographic system

1676
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:33,480
in terms of

1677
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:34,280
anything that uses

1678
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:35,200
cryptographic identities

1679
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:36,100
is like,

1680
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:37,540
you one click

1681
00:49:37,540 --> 00:49:38,380
create an account.

1682
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:39,700
It's,

1683
00:49:39,860 --> 00:49:40,860
that's it.

1684
00:49:41,260 --> 00:49:41,900
You generate,

1685
00:49:42,020 --> 00:49:42,740
all you have to do

1686
00:49:42,740 --> 00:49:43,440
is generate a key.

1687
00:49:43,580 --> 00:49:43,820
And again,

1688
00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:44,940
like I spoke about this

1689
00:49:44,940 --> 00:49:45,920
a million times

1690
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:46,780
from the Bitcoin side.

1691
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:47,720
The power of Bitcoin

1692
00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:48,160
is like,

1693
00:49:48,980 --> 00:49:50,060
you can lock yourself

1694
00:49:50,060 --> 00:49:50,960
into a bathroom,

1695
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:52,560
you can flip a coin

1696
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:53,320
a couple times

1697
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,520
and you walk out

1698
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:55,300
with 12 words

1699
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:56,160
and you can,

1700
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:56,940
that's it.

1701
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:57,840
You're a Bitcoiner,

1702
00:49:57,940 --> 00:49:58,200
basically.

1703
00:49:58,380 --> 00:49:59,280
You can receive money,

1704
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:00,560
you can spend money,

1705
00:50:00,620 --> 00:50:01,160
all the things,

1706
00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:01,680
and so on.

1707
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:02,720
And you don't,

1708
00:50:03,060 --> 00:50:04,000
like in some sense,

1709
00:50:04,060 --> 00:50:04,680
you wouldn't even need

1710
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:05,060
a computer.

1711
00:50:05,220 --> 00:50:06,000
You wouldn't even need,

1712
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,600
like you only need

1713
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:09,500
a way to do math

1714
00:50:09,500 --> 00:50:10,380
and you need

1715
00:50:10,380 --> 00:50:12,320
some communication channels

1716
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:13,100
to someone.

1717
00:50:13,540 --> 00:50:14,040
But you could be

1718
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:14,500
in prison,

1719
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:15,080
theoretically,

1720
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:15,540
you know,

1721
00:50:15,580 --> 00:50:16,760
and you could basically,

1722
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:17,320
again,

1723
00:50:17,420 --> 00:50:18,320
with carrier pigeons,

1724
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:20,860
send the data packets

1725
00:50:20,860 --> 00:50:21,700
in and out

1726
00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:22,080
and all those

1727
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:22,820
kind of things.

1728
00:50:23,180 --> 00:50:24,500
And through the power

1729
00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:26,120
of public key cryptography,

1730
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,200
all this stuff works.

1731
00:50:28,420 --> 00:50:29,860
And that's insanely powerful.

1732
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:31,440
And I mean,

1733
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:32,080
Bitcoin shows

1734
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,120
how powerful it is.

1735
00:50:33,180 --> 00:50:34,060
And we actually know

1736
00:50:34,060 --> 00:50:37,360
people like Charlie,

1737
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:37,820
for example,

1738
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:38,480
to name drop him.

1739
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:40,840
He had to leave Venezuela

1740
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,000
with his family and so on

1741
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,320
and Bitcoin saved his life.

1742
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:44,380
And he's one of the guys

1743
00:50:44,380 --> 00:50:45,440
who actually did this.

1744
00:50:45,580 --> 00:50:46,420
12 words in your head,

1745
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:47,340
cross the border.

1746
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:48,040
No one knows

1747
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:49,360
that you have anything

1748
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:49,960
or any wealth

1749
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:50,540
and it literally

1750
00:50:50,540 --> 00:50:51,280
saved his life

1751
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:51,900
and he was able

1752
00:50:51,900 --> 00:50:53,160
to build up

1753
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:54,060
another existence

1754
00:50:54,060 --> 00:50:55,180
in another country

1755
00:50:55,180 --> 00:50:55,660
and so on.

1756
00:50:55,860 --> 00:50:55,940
Yeah,

1757
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:56,540
there was a,

1758
00:50:56,660 --> 00:50:57,400
there was a,

1759
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:58,260
sorry to interrupt,

1760
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,060
but in Nashville,

1761
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:01,040
there was a,

1762
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:02,400
at the HRF event,

1763
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:04,060
there was this person

1764
00:51:04,060 --> 00:51:05,020
that was supposed

1765
00:51:05,020 --> 00:51:05,520
to come

1766
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:06,540
but couldn't come

1767
00:51:06,540 --> 00:51:07,680
because of the,

1768
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,180
the situation

1769
00:51:11,180 --> 00:51:12,680
in South Lebanon.

1770
00:51:14,460 --> 00:51:15,360
And he mentioned

1771
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:16,640
that it was the second time

1772
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:17,640
that this had happened

1773
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:18,080
to him

1774
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,100
where he has to overnight

1775
00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:20,820
all of a sudden

1776
00:51:20,820 --> 00:51:22,420
just leave his hometown

1777
00:51:22,420 --> 00:51:23,220
with his family

1778
00:51:23,220 --> 00:51:24,040
in the middle of the night.

1779
00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:25,120
And apparently

1780
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:25,840
that had happened

1781
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:26,260
in whatever,

1782
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:27,920
like 2013

1783
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:28,740
or something like that.

1784
00:51:29,780 --> 00:51:31,580
And he was mentioning

1785
00:51:31,580 --> 00:51:32,720
how bad the situation

1786
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:33,620
had been

1787
00:51:33,620 --> 00:51:35,240
in the last couple of weeks.

1788
00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:36,740
He was in the north

1789
00:51:36,740 --> 00:51:37,360
of Lebanon

1790
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:37,920
when he was,

1791
00:51:38,100 --> 00:51:39,800
he remotely called in.

1792
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,960
and he was mentioning

1793
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,920
how this time

1794
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,700
it was really bad

1795
00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:50,300
but it was incredibly better

1796
00:51:50,300 --> 00:51:51,760
because he had

1797
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:52,720
all his money in Bitcoin.

1798
00:51:53,580 --> 00:51:54,180
So he didn't,

1799
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:55,480
I mean,

1800
00:51:55,540 --> 00:51:55,820
he was.

1801
00:51:55,820 --> 00:51:56,740
One worry less.

1802
00:51:57,140 --> 00:51:57,440
One,

1803
00:51:57,580 --> 00:51:58,800
a very important worry.

1804
00:51:58,900 --> 00:51:59,740
Like how do you provide

1805
00:51:59,740 --> 00:52:00,460
it for your family

1806
00:52:00,460 --> 00:52:01,480
when you don't have any money?

1807
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,540
It is a massive improvement.

1808
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:05,580
This idea,

1809
00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:06,240
this ability

1810
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:07,140
of just saying,

1811
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:08,320
just go.

1812
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:08,740
I,

1813
00:52:08,740 --> 00:52:09,000
I,

1814
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:09,500
I,

1815
00:52:09,500 --> 00:52:09,800
I,

1816
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:10,020
I,

1817
00:52:10,020 --> 00:52:10,340
I,

1818
00:52:10,340 --> 00:52:11,020
I,

1819
00:52:11,020 --> 00:52:12,320
I told my,

1820
00:52:12,420 --> 00:52:12,820
that's,

1821
00:52:12,820 --> 00:52:13,140
that's,

1822
00:52:13,140 --> 00:52:13,900
that's by the way,

1823
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:14,340
like I,

1824
00:52:14,340 --> 00:52:15,280
I really hope

1825
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:15,980
that very soon

1826
00:52:15,980 --> 00:52:16,820
and we're getting there

1827
00:52:16,820 --> 00:52:17,340
like with,

1828
00:52:17,820 --> 00:52:18,600
I mean,

1829
00:52:18,740 --> 00:52:20,560
the daylight computer people

1830
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:21,280
have the right idea

1831
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:21,860
for example

1832
00:52:21,860 --> 00:52:23,480
and a sex story

1833
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:24,160
is getting there

1834
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:24,520
as well

1835
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:24,980
and so on.

1836
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:26,040
But I really hope

1837
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:26,600
that in the end

1838
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,100
like if you remember

1839
00:52:28,100 --> 00:52:29,080
to have 12 words

1840
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:29,560
in your head,

1841
00:52:29,820 --> 00:52:30,560
you pop out,

1842
00:52:30,620 --> 00:52:31,680
you pop out somewhere else,

1843
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:32,520
you get a new phone

1844
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:33,380
and you,

1845
00:52:33,380 --> 00:52:34,740
you derive your,

1846
00:52:34,740 --> 00:52:35,600
your industry seed

1847
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:36,440
from that for example

1848
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,640
and everything is there again.

1849
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:39,680
You have everything again.

1850
00:52:39,780 --> 00:52:40,460
You have your whole

1851
00:52:40,460 --> 00:52:41,560
like online identity,

1852
00:52:41,980 --> 00:52:42,700
you have your whole

1853
00:52:42,700 --> 00:52:43,500
like your,

1854
00:52:43,500 --> 00:52:43,780
your,

1855
00:52:43,780 --> 00:52:44,840
your wallet system,

1856
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,000
your ecosystem of apps,

1857
00:52:46,300 --> 00:52:47,020
all your settings,

1858
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:47,980
all those kind of things.

1859
00:52:48,260 --> 00:52:48,740
Like every time

1860
00:52:48,740 --> 00:52:49,380
I switch phone,

1861
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:49,600
I,

1862
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:50,140
I,

1863
00:52:50,140 --> 00:52:50,660
you know,

1864
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:51,540
like I just,

1865
00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:52,240
I lose my mind

1866
00:52:52,240 --> 00:52:52,920
for like three weeks

1867
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:53,920
because most,

1868
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:55,320
most apps,

1869
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:56,200
they,

1870
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:56,980
they,

1871
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:57,860
they don't allow you

1872
00:52:57,860 --> 00:52:59,720
to easily sync

1873
00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:00,740
your setup in some way.

1874
00:53:00,860 --> 00:53:01,080
You know,

1875
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:01,820
like you have to start

1876
00:53:01,820 --> 00:53:02,300
from scratch

1877
00:53:02,300 --> 00:53:04,000
and set everything up again

1878
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:05,340
and literally start

1879
00:53:05,340 --> 00:53:05,780
from scratch

1880
00:53:05,780 --> 00:53:06,060
and,

1881
00:53:06,180 --> 00:53:06,740
and on the,

1882
00:53:06,780 --> 00:53:07,560
on the monetary side

1883
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:07,900
of course,

1884
00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:08,340
like that,

1885
00:53:08,460 --> 00:53:09,680
that used to be the default

1886
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:10,500
with Bitcoin,

1887
00:53:10,620 --> 00:53:11,260
you absolutely don't

1888
00:53:11,260 --> 00:53:12,180
have to start from scratch.

1889
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:13,200
You have 12 words in your head,

1890
00:53:13,220 --> 00:53:13,820
you go somewhere else,

1891
00:53:14,100 --> 00:53:15,040
everything is still there,

1892
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:15,900
everything still works

1893
00:53:15,900 --> 00:53:16,760
and that's,

1894
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:17,780
that's the fucking superpower

1895
00:53:17,780 --> 00:53:18,660
and I think that's why,

1896
00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:19,260
why nuts apps

1897
00:53:19,260 --> 00:53:20,540
are so insanely important

1898
00:53:20,540 --> 00:53:22,980
because the complexity,

1899
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:24,880
like the,

1900
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:26,260
they remove

1901
00:53:26,260 --> 00:53:27,300
so much complexity.

1902
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:27,880
Yeah.

1903
00:53:28,220 --> 00:53:28,520
Yes,

1904
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:29,300
it's not all sunshine

1905
00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:29,960
and rainbows,

1906
00:53:30,180 --> 00:53:31,680
there's different trade-offs

1907
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:31,960
and solutions.

1908
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:32,660
No solutions.

1909
00:53:33,180 --> 00:53:33,920
No solutions,

1910
00:53:34,020 --> 00:53:34,560
only trade-offs.

1911
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:35,340
But,

1912
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,160
but it is so awesome

1913
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:38,180
that you can click a button

1914
00:53:38,180 --> 00:53:39,840
and you immediately

1915
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:40,620
receive SAPs.

1916
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:40,800
Yeah.

1917
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:41,720
and I,

1918
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:42,940
I know for a fact

1919
00:53:42,940 --> 00:53:44,000
that this already blew

1920
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:44,920
the minds of some people

1921
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:45,720
on the Ola site

1922
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:46,700
because they talked

1923
00:53:46,700 --> 00:53:47,400
about it publicly,

1924
00:53:47,540 --> 00:53:47,720
you know,

1925
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:48,180
like they,

1926
00:53:48,180 --> 00:53:48,280
they,

1927
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:49,800
they posted about it

1928
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:50,180
where it's like,

1929
00:53:50,260 --> 00:53:50,580
oh my God,

1930
00:53:50,620 --> 00:53:51,240
what do you mean?

1931
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:51,540
Like what,

1932
00:53:51,580 --> 00:53:52,260
what just happened?

1933
00:53:52,380 --> 00:53:53,440
Like they immediately

1934
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:54,500
are able to get SAP

1935
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:56,040
and that's so powerful.

1936
00:53:56,220 --> 00:53:56,960
Everyone who ever

1937
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:58,100
onboarded someone to Bitcoin,

1938
00:53:58,100 --> 00:54:00,000
they all use Wallet of Satoshi

1939
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:01,560
because of the powerful,

1940
00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:01,860
wow,

1941
00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:02,780
it just works effect

1942
00:54:02,780 --> 00:54:04,380
and now we have that

1943
00:54:04,380 --> 00:54:04,720
with,

1944
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:05,680
you know,

1945
00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:06,020
better,

1946
00:54:06,020 --> 00:54:09,500
you don't have to trust

1947
00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:10,580
one provider fully.

1948
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:11,920
Like you don't have to trust

1949
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:12,880
Wallet of Satoshi fully.

1950
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:14,360
I have to catch my breath.

1951
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:18,640
Going upstairs was a mistake.

1952
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:22,960
What's,

1953
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:24,440
yeah,

1954
00:54:24,540 --> 00:54:25,220
to me the,

1955
00:54:25,220 --> 00:54:26,900
like the,

1956
00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:27,660
the Nib 60,

1957
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:29,100
the Natsuk stuff,

1958
00:54:29,380 --> 00:54:31,280
it is so fucking cool.

1959
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:31,920
It,

1960
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:33,360
like when you,

1961
00:54:33,860 --> 00:54:35,180
but who will run the,

1962
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:35,720
who will run the,

1963
00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:35,860
I mean,

1964
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:36,060
yeah,

1965
00:54:36,060 --> 00:54:36,220
yeah.

1966
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:38,440
How,

1967
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:39,500
how are we going to manage

1968
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:40,300
without state subsidies?

1969
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:43,440
What's,

1970
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:44,900
like it's super interesting

1971
00:54:44,900 --> 00:54:45,380
because I,

1972
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:47,500
as I was working on this stuff,

1973
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:47,840
I,

1974
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:48,080
I,

1975
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:49,900
like I understood it conceptually

1976
00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:50,240
and,

1977
00:54:50,300 --> 00:54:51,080
and I'm like,

1978
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:51,220
oh,

1979
00:54:51,220 --> 00:54:52,480
this is like a really cool idea.

1980
00:54:53,180 --> 00:54:53,540
Um,

1981
00:54:53,660 --> 00:54:55,520
and the whole reason

1982
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:56,880
why I started working on that

1983
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:58,140
is because

1984
00:54:58,140 --> 00:54:59,340
of Primal.

1985
00:55:00,500 --> 00:55:00,900
Like,

1986
00:55:01,020 --> 00:55:02,420
I really like the flow

1987
00:55:02,420 --> 00:55:03,260
of Primal

1988
00:55:03,260 --> 00:55:04,420
of where you create the account

1989
00:55:04,420 --> 00:55:05,060
and you do click,

1990
00:55:05,060 --> 00:55:05,300
click,

1991
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:05,620
click,

1992
00:55:05,620 --> 00:55:07,000
like KYC,

1993
00:55:07,100 --> 00:55:07,280
click,

1994
00:55:07,340 --> 00:55:07,440
click,

1995
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:07,500
click,

1996
00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:07,640
click,

1997
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,580
which,

1998
00:55:10,700 --> 00:55:11,200
you know,

1999
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:11,920
all,

2000
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:12,760
all the love because

2001
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:13,300
you,

2002
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:14,120
it's,

2003
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:15,000
it's like you said,

2004
00:55:15,060 --> 00:55:15,960
it's like you said for,

2005
00:55:16,180 --> 00:55:16,860
I don't know what you,

2006
00:55:16,900 --> 00:55:17,580
what you mentioned last time,

2007
00:55:17,620 --> 00:55:18,240
the stuff you looked at,

2008
00:55:18,300 --> 00:55:19,860
it's as good as it can be.

2009
00:55:19,940 --> 00:55:21,360
The flow is as good

2010
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:22,100
as it can be

2011
00:55:22,100 --> 00:55:22,980
if you're forced

2012
00:55:22,980 --> 00:55:23,720
to do KYC.

2013
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:24,280
Yes,

2014
00:55:24,540 --> 00:55:25,440
if you're forced

2015
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:26,020
to do KYC,

2016
00:55:26,180 --> 00:55:27,220
it is as good

2017
00:55:27,220 --> 00:55:28,000
as it can get,

2018
00:55:28,340 --> 00:55:28,980
but it,

2019
00:55:28,980 --> 00:55:30,000
it kind of opened the door

2020
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:31,360
of what does it feel like

2021
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:32,020
for the,

2022
00:55:32,020 --> 00:55:33,300
the wallet to be right there.

2023
00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:34,660
You don't have to pair it.

2024
00:55:34,860 --> 00:55:35,780
You don't have to install

2025
00:55:35,780 --> 00:55:36,500
this other app

2026
00:55:36,500 --> 00:55:38,020
and then do this other dance

2027
00:55:38,020 --> 00:55:38,580
and this thing,

2028
00:55:38,940 --> 00:55:39,140
which,

2029
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:39,920
again,

2030
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:40,840
I think,

2031
00:55:41,260 --> 00:55:43,060
even if it were to be

2032
00:55:43,060 --> 00:55:44,460
self-custodial,

2033
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:45,420
if you don't know

2034
00:55:45,420 --> 00:55:46,240
what you're doing,

2035
00:55:46,340 --> 00:55:47,420
if you're just blindly

2036
00:55:47,420 --> 00:55:48,700
copying data around

2037
00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:49,580
and you have no fucking

2038
00:55:49,580 --> 00:55:50,480
clue what's going on,

2039
00:55:50,860 --> 00:55:51,800
is it self-custodial?

2040
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,200
There is this wallet

2041
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:56,400
that I actually really like.

2042
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,400
It has this very normie,

2043
00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:01,020
friendly onboarding flow

2044
00:56:01,020 --> 00:56:01,760
for inheritance

2045
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,060
and the last flow

2046
00:56:04,060 --> 00:56:05,680
is upload your backup.

2047
00:56:06,660 --> 00:56:07,680
So it's like a,

2048
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,860
like a multi-sig,

2049
00:56:09,980 --> 00:56:10,640
they hold whatever,

2050
00:56:10,740 --> 00:56:11,440
one key or two keys

2051
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:11,760
or whatever,

2052
00:56:12,020 --> 00:56:13,980
so they don't have quorum.

2053
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:15,380
But as part of the flow

2054
00:56:15,380 --> 00:56:16,820
is upload your backup

2055
00:56:16,820 --> 00:56:17,700
to check that everything

2056
00:56:17,700 --> 00:56:18,220
is okay.

2057
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:19,400
Yes,

2058
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:20,120
I mean,

2059
00:56:20,620 --> 00:56:21,280
I'm guessing

2060
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:22,640
they are good guys.

2061
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:24,220
I know they're not going to keep...

2062
00:56:24,220 --> 00:56:25,280
So the backup is not encrypted

2063
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:26,100
and it's like...

2064
00:56:26,100 --> 00:56:26,480
No, no, no,

2065
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:27,300
you're just literally

2066
00:56:27,300 --> 00:56:28,400
just sending to make sure

2067
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:29,680
that you did everything right.

2068
00:56:29,700 --> 00:56:30,520
You send your key

2069
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,900
and they promise to delete it.

2070
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:33,300
Oh, really?

2071
00:56:33,300 --> 00:56:35,280
I don't think

2072
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:36,640
that they're keeping it,

2073
00:56:36,820 --> 00:56:38,460
but is that really self-custodial?

2074
00:56:38,460 --> 00:56:38,840
Again,

2075
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:39,500
that's the issue.

2076
00:56:39,700 --> 00:56:41,280
You can't prove deletion.

2077
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:42,800
So it is pinky promise.

2078
00:56:43,020 --> 00:56:44,080
It is pinky promise.

2079
00:56:45,580 --> 00:56:47,220
So even if it's not self-custodial,

2080
00:56:47,220 --> 00:56:48,660
you don't know

2081
00:56:48,660 --> 00:56:49,400
what the fuck you're doing.

2082
00:56:49,700 --> 00:56:51,860
So you could be fucking yourself.

2083
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:52,460
Yeah, yeah, of course.

2084
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:54,400
But...

2085
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:55,200
So yeah,

2086
00:56:55,300 --> 00:56:56,360
the Primal thing.

2087
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:57,160
To me,

2088
00:56:57,340 --> 00:56:58,240
that flow

2089
00:56:58,240 --> 00:56:59,460
was so smooth

2090
00:56:59,460 --> 00:57:01,220
and I think

2091
00:57:01,220 --> 00:57:02,760
they've executed

2092
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:03,800
on the product really well

2093
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,920
and the wallet

2094
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:07,960
is phenomenal

2095
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,260
and I wanted something like that.

2096
00:57:10,540 --> 00:57:11,320
The thing is also

2097
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:12,360
with Primal

2098
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:13,420
and also with wallet of Satoshi

2099
00:57:13,420 --> 00:57:14,200
to some degree,

2100
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:15,440
but with Primal in particular,

2101
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:18,340
you can have a taste

2102
00:57:18,340 --> 00:57:19,200
of what it feels like

2103
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:20,160
if your money,

2104
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:21,000
if your wallet

2105
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:21,720
follows you around.

2106
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:22,140
Yes.

2107
00:57:22,340 --> 00:57:22,960
Yeah, yeah, 100%.

2108
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:23,580
It doesn't matter

2109
00:57:23,580 --> 00:57:24,860
if you use it

2110
00:57:24,860 --> 00:57:26,040
in five different phones

2111
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:26,760
and it doesn't matter

2112
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:27,320
if you switch

2113
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:27,900
a different phone.

2114
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:29,520
You punch in your ANZAC

2115
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:30,260
and everything's there.

2116
00:57:30,340 --> 00:57:30,580
Yes.

2117
00:57:30,820 --> 00:57:32,480
And that's such a superpower

2118
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,080
and it's...

2119
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,420
I think that's...

2120
00:57:36,420 --> 00:57:37,640
Nutsaps hit the sweet spot

2121
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:38,840
of all of that,

2122
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:39,180
I think.

2123
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:39,420
Like,

2124
00:57:39,500 --> 00:57:41,280
I think from a trade-off perspective,

2125
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:42,860
Nutsaps are fantastic.

2126
00:57:42,860 --> 00:57:43,200
Again,

2127
00:57:43,300 --> 00:57:43,380
like,

2128
00:57:43,420 --> 00:57:44,440
don't store your whole wealth

2129
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:45,100
and so on

2130
00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:45,780
and they have their issues

2131
00:57:45,780 --> 00:57:46,180
and so on.

2132
00:57:46,580 --> 00:57:47,660
But it's also...

2133
00:57:47,660 --> 00:57:48,240
It's also...

2134
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:48,840
It's not because

2135
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:50,140
a lot of people will say,

2136
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:50,560
oh, no,

2137
00:57:50,620 --> 00:57:51,040
it's custodial.

2138
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:51,440
It's custodial.

2139
00:57:52,060 --> 00:57:52,540
Yes,

2140
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:53,840
in some sense,

2141
00:57:53,980 --> 00:57:54,940
but also no

2142
00:57:54,940 --> 00:57:55,920
in another sense

2143
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:57,520
because the Mint

2144
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,940
cannot selectively remove you

2145
00:58:00,940 --> 00:58:02,400
or selectively censor you.

2146
00:58:02,780 --> 00:58:03,900
It's all or nothing,

2147
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:04,780
which is different

2148
00:58:04,780 --> 00:58:06,760
than what we usually think about

2149
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:07,940
in a custodial sense.

2150
00:58:07,940 --> 00:58:09,280
And that's what I mean

2151
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:10,600
with like...

2152
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:11,480
Or what we also mentioned.

2153
00:58:11,620 --> 00:58:12,540
We're missing the words.

2154
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:13,200
Yeah.

2155
00:58:13,260 --> 00:58:14,460
The metaphors break down.

2156
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:14,860
Yeah.

2157
00:58:14,980 --> 00:58:16,920
There is not just custodial

2158
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:17,480
and non-custodial.

2159
00:58:17,580 --> 00:58:19,100
There's an in-between also.

2160
00:58:19,460 --> 00:58:20,540
It's just like collaborative custody.

2161
00:58:20,660 --> 00:58:21,400
It is in-between.

2162
00:58:21,620 --> 00:58:21,940
It's like...

2163
00:58:22,540 --> 00:58:25,320
It's still self-custodial,

2164
00:58:25,460 --> 00:58:25,940
but it's...

2165
00:58:26,460 --> 00:58:27,000
You know what I mean?

2166
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:28,100
Someone else also holds the key

2167
00:58:28,100 --> 00:58:28,500
and so on.

2168
00:58:28,780 --> 00:58:29,880
And I feel like

2169
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,160
in a Mint setup,

2170
00:58:32,260 --> 00:58:33,640
especially the multi-Mint setup,

2171
00:58:34,340 --> 00:58:35,180
it's similar.

2172
00:58:35,380 --> 00:58:36,040
It's very similar

2173
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:36,480
where it's like

2174
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:37,480
it's not all or nothing.

2175
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:38,420
It's like you can't

2176
00:58:38,420 --> 00:58:39,520
be completely debanked.

2177
00:58:39,540 --> 00:58:40,860
You can't be completely censored.

2178
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:42,040
You can't be...

2179
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:43,740
It's selectively targeted

2180
00:58:43,740 --> 00:58:44,280
and so on.

2181
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:45,240
It's...

2182
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:46,400
Again, like the Mint

2183
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:47,600
knows nothing about you.

2184
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:49,740
The Mint is blind

2185
00:58:49,740 --> 00:58:50,620
towards its users.

2186
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:51,420
And that's something

2187
00:58:51,420 --> 00:58:52,140
that most people,

2188
00:58:52,300 --> 00:58:53,160
I feel like,

2189
00:58:53,220 --> 00:58:53,920
don't really understand.

2190
00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:55,320
They should.

2191
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:55,840
It's like...

2192
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:56,940
It's the main value proposition,

2193
00:58:57,100 --> 00:58:57,460
I feel like.

2194
00:58:57,700 --> 00:58:57,940
Yeah.

2195
00:58:58,600 --> 00:58:59,580
That's the innovation.

2196
00:59:00,420 --> 00:59:00,820
But...

2197
00:59:00,820 --> 00:59:02,340
But also the experience,

2198
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:03,220
like...

2199
00:59:03,220 --> 00:59:03,820
So Berberica

2200
00:59:03,820 --> 00:59:04,800
is integrating

2201
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:06,720
Natsacs

2202
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:07,620
and Natsacs

2203
00:59:07,620 --> 00:59:08,440
in Chachi.

2204
00:59:08,940 --> 00:59:09,980
And I've been playing

2205
00:59:09,980 --> 00:59:11,200
with the beta version

2206
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:12,200
that he's working on now.

2207
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,780
And it is so fucking cool, man.

2208
00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:17,120
Like,

2209
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:18,540
it is insane.

2210
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,180
I have Ola's open

2211
00:59:20,180 --> 00:59:21,940
on one side of my screen

2212
00:59:21,940 --> 00:59:22,880
and then I have Chachi

2213
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:23,420
on the other side

2214
00:59:23,420 --> 00:59:23,960
of the screen.

2215
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:25,900
I am looking at my wallet,

2216
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:27,860
my Natsac wallet

2217
00:59:27,860 --> 00:59:29,140
on Ola's.

2218
00:59:29,140 --> 00:59:30,240
And I subbed someone

2219
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:31,480
from Chachi

2220
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,300
and Ola's immediately

2221
00:59:33,300 --> 00:59:35,040
reflects that I spent

2222
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:35,420
some money.

2223
00:59:35,620 --> 00:59:36,900
The data is the token.

2224
00:59:37,100 --> 00:59:37,520
It's the SEP.

2225
00:59:37,660 --> 00:59:38,640
It's all Berberica.

2226
00:59:39,020 --> 00:59:39,920
But it's so...

2227
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:40,780
And you know,

2228
00:59:40,860 --> 00:59:41,000
like,

2229
00:59:41,180 --> 00:59:42,260
the first thing

2230
00:59:42,260 --> 00:59:43,420
that shocked me

2231
00:59:43,420 --> 00:59:44,520
about Noster

2232
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,360
when I first started writing...

2233
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:46,680
Like,

2234
00:59:46,740 --> 00:59:47,780
within the first 10 minutes

2235
00:59:47,780 --> 00:59:48,900
of writing Noster code

2236
00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:49,720
was

2237
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:51,300
I wrote this thing

2238
00:59:51,300 --> 00:59:52,820
as a test

2239
00:59:52,820 --> 00:59:53,900
of changing

2240
00:59:53,900 --> 00:59:55,100
my profile picture

2241
00:59:55,100 --> 00:59:56,180
or my name

2242
00:59:56,180 --> 00:59:56,740
and whatever, right?

2243
00:59:56,740 --> 00:59:57,780
The immediacy of...

2244
00:59:57,780 --> 00:59:58,260
The immediacy.

2245
00:59:58,580 --> 00:59:59,240
And IPC,

2246
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:00,180
inter-process communication.

2247
01:00:00,460 --> 01:00:01,300
I used to read

2248
01:00:01,300 --> 01:00:02,300
entire books

2249
01:00:02,300 --> 01:00:03,260
about IPC

2250
01:00:03,260 --> 01:00:03,760
as a kid.

2251
01:00:04,380 --> 01:00:04,420
And,

2252
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:05,780
you know,

2253
01:00:05,860 --> 01:00:06,520
IPC is like

2254
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:07,160
fucking music.

2255
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:07,480
Like,

2256
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:09,620
it is a very

2257
01:00:09,620 --> 01:00:10,800
complex

2258
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:12,820
computer science

2259
01:00:12,820 --> 01:00:13,600
problem.

2260
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:14,920
And

2261
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:16,560
you write code

2262
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:18,020
in Noster

2263
01:00:18,020 --> 01:00:19,680
and it's

2264
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:20,540
by default

2265
01:00:20,540 --> 01:00:21,060
it's solved.

2266
01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:22,400
By default

2267
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:23,120
it's solved.

2268
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:23,860
If you build it right.

2269
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:24,860
If you build it right.

2270
01:00:25,060 --> 01:00:25,740
If you build it right.

2271
01:00:25,740 --> 01:00:26,720
And that's what we saw

2272
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:27,620
over and over again.

2273
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:28,100
Like,

2274
01:00:28,260 --> 01:00:29,160
once you

2275
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:30,460
build out

2276
01:00:30,460 --> 01:00:30,920
a backend

2277
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:31,900
and once you introduce

2278
01:00:31,900 --> 01:00:32,340
a server

2279
01:00:32,340 --> 01:00:32,780
in the middle

2280
01:00:32,780 --> 01:00:33,160
somewhere

2281
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:33,880
all of that

2282
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:34,400
goes away.

2283
01:00:34,460 --> 01:00:34,720
All of that

2284
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:35,160
falls apart.

2285
01:00:35,660 --> 01:00:36,000
Absolutely.

2286
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:36,300
So,

2287
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:37,240
you actually

2288
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:38,000
have to lean

2289
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:38,860
into the Noster paradigm

2290
01:00:38,860 --> 01:00:40,000
to get

2291
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:40,740
all this stuff

2292
01:00:40,740 --> 01:00:41,220
for free.

2293
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:41,640
Dude,

2294
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:42,080
that's what

2295
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:43,460
shocks me

2296
01:00:43,460 --> 01:00:44,420
so much

2297
01:00:44,420 --> 01:00:45,080
about all the people

2298
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:45,620
that want to build

2299
01:00:45,620 --> 01:00:46,400
REST APIs

2300
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:47,900
around Noster

2301
01:00:47,900 --> 01:00:48,360
is like

2302
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:49,740
the web

2303
01:00:49,740 --> 01:00:50,400
are fucking

2304
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:50,920
amazing.

2305
01:00:51,340 --> 01:00:51,360
Like,

2306
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:53,060
you're seeing

2307
01:00:53,060 --> 01:00:53,600
the event

2308
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:54,560
being changed

2309
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:56,160
in your default

2310
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:56,740
way of getting

2311
01:00:56,740 --> 01:00:57,620
your data

2312
01:00:57,620 --> 01:00:58,340
you're seeing

2313
01:00:58,340 --> 01:00:59,920
the profile changing

2314
01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:00,600
or whatever

2315
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:01,780
information is changing

2316
01:01:01,780 --> 01:01:02,760
or your wallet balance

2317
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:03,260
changing.

2318
01:01:03,980 --> 01:01:05,240
It's so fucking cool.

2319
01:01:05,420 --> 01:01:05,540
Like,

2320
01:01:05,540 --> 01:01:06,880
why are you breaking it?

2321
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:07,960
It makes no sense.

2322
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:08,320
And also,

2323
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:08,980
it doesn't matter

2324
01:01:08,980 --> 01:01:10,480
how well designed

2325
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:11,560
your thing is.

2326
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:12,420
At scale

2327
01:01:12,420 --> 01:01:13,100
this stuff doesn't work.

2328
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:13,660
Oh, 100%.

2329
01:01:13,660 --> 01:01:13,800
Like,

2330
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:14,720
on GitHub for example

2331
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:15,180
or wherever

2332
01:01:15,180 --> 01:01:16,140
if you change

2333
01:01:16,140 --> 01:01:16,940
your profile picture

2334
01:01:16,940 --> 01:01:17,280
or whatever

2335
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:18,300
they will show a message.

2336
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:19,540
It might take like,

2337
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:19,840
you know,

2338
01:01:19,900 --> 01:01:20,900
like 24 hours

2339
01:01:20,900 --> 01:01:21,460
to propagate

2340
01:01:21,460 --> 01:01:22,220
through all the,

2341
01:01:22,260 --> 01:01:22,780
you know,

2342
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:23,440
views

2343
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:24,560
until your

2344
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:25,120
like fucking

2345
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:25,660
profile picture

2346
01:01:25,660 --> 01:01:26,400
has changed.

2347
01:01:26,580 --> 01:01:26,820
And that's,

2348
01:01:27,060 --> 01:01:28,060
on all large scale systems

2349
01:01:28,060 --> 01:01:30,160
that's the thing.

2350
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:30,360
Like,

2351
01:01:30,540 --> 01:01:30,980
it's,

2352
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:32,860
that's physics.

2353
01:01:33,020 --> 01:01:33,620
That's how data

2354
01:01:33,620 --> 01:01:35,120
wants to spread

2355
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:35,660
and needs to spread

2356
01:01:35,660 --> 01:01:36,640
but it also takes time

2357
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:37,000
and it's,

2358
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:38,160
if you have all

2359
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:38,960
these central authorities

2360
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:40,140
and the central servers

2361
01:01:40,140 --> 01:01:41,480
they need to make sure

2362
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:42,480
that the update is legit.

2363
01:01:42,620 --> 01:01:43,680
They need to make sure

2364
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:43,940
that,

2365
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:44,440
you know,

2366
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:45,080
all of this stuff

2367
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:45,760
is propagated

2368
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:46,320
and so on

2369
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:47,180
and you have all this caching

2370
01:01:47,180 --> 01:01:47,960
and all the things

2371
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:48,360
and so on

2372
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:48,720
and so forth

2373
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:49,060
and so on.

2374
01:01:49,060 --> 01:01:50,300
And all the complexity

2375
01:01:50,300 --> 01:01:51,620
is what you invite

2376
01:01:51,620 --> 01:01:52,640
when you're trying

2377
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:53,520
to create

2378
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,240
a fake global state

2379
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:55,720
of the system.

2380
01:01:56,060 --> 01:01:57,020
It only counts

2381
01:01:57,020 --> 01:01:58,180
because you have

2382
01:01:58,180 --> 01:01:58,660
that appeal.

2383
01:01:59,060 --> 01:01:59,140
Yeah,

2384
01:01:59,440 --> 01:01:59,660
yeah.

2385
01:02:00,340 --> 01:02:00,620
If you,

2386
01:02:00,780 --> 01:02:01,260
and that's,

2387
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:02,740
I was listening

2388
01:02:02,740 --> 01:02:04,980
to a friend,

2389
01:02:05,820 --> 01:02:06,620
I was listening

2390
01:02:06,620 --> 01:02:07,180
to someone

2391
01:02:07,180 --> 01:02:08,460
on a podcast

2392
01:02:08,460 --> 01:02:08,900
last night.

2393
01:02:09,820 --> 01:02:10,420
You can dox them,

2394
01:02:10,460 --> 01:02:11,020
no one is listening

2395
01:02:11,020 --> 01:02:11,300
to that.

2396
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:11,960
Yeah,

2397
01:02:11,980 --> 01:02:12,440
that's true.

2398
01:02:12,700 --> 01:02:12,840
No,

2399
01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:12,980
no,

2400
01:02:13,140 --> 01:02:14,560
it's not a friend.

2401
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:17,920
He was saying

2402
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:18,200
that,

2403
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:19,420
he was saying

2404
01:02:19,420 --> 01:02:19,680
that,

2405
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:20,580
that Noster

2406
01:02:20,580 --> 01:02:22,020
is not even attempting

2407
01:02:22,020 --> 01:02:23,220
to solve the problems,

2408
01:02:23,940 --> 01:02:25,960
that this stuff

2409
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:27,340
that they're working on

2410
01:02:27,340 --> 01:02:29,160
is solving the problem

2411
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:29,560
or at least

2412
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:30,220
is trying

2413
01:02:30,220 --> 01:02:31,780
and that Noster

2414
01:02:31,780 --> 01:02:32,480
is not even trying.

2415
01:02:33,020 --> 01:02:33,740
Noster gave up.

2416
01:02:35,620 --> 01:02:36,540
And it's,

2417
01:02:36,580 --> 01:02:37,700
it's this idea

2418
01:02:37,700 --> 01:02:40,520
of we can engineer everything,

2419
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:40,980
you know,

2420
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:41,700
we are masters

2421
01:02:41,700 --> 01:02:42,320
of the universe

2422
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:43,140
because everything

2423
01:02:43,140 --> 01:02:43,980
is synthetic anyway.

2424
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:44,940
So we can,

2425
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:45,940
we can solve everything.

2426
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:47,200
There are no trade-offs.

2427
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:47,360
Yeah,

2428
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:47,940
yeah,

2429
01:02:47,940 --> 01:02:47,980
yeah,

2430
01:02:47,980 --> 01:02:48,120
yeah.

2431
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:48,680
It's,

2432
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:49,480
it's lots of shitcoin

2433
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:50,140
and I said this as well.

2434
01:02:50,220 --> 01:02:50,400
There's,

2435
01:02:50,460 --> 01:02:51,520
there are no constraints.

2436
01:02:51,740 --> 01:02:51,960
Yes,

2437
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:53,300
we can do absolutely everything.

2438
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:54,900
We can solve stuff perfectly

2439
01:02:54,900 --> 01:02:56,540
because there are no constraints.

2440
01:02:56,620 --> 01:02:57,320
That was the,

2441
01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:58,740
that was the grand invention

2442
01:02:58,740 --> 01:02:59,100
of,

2443
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:00,180
of proof of stake

2444
01:03:00,180 --> 01:03:00,600
on Ethereum.

2445
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:01,180
Remember that

2446
01:03:01,180 --> 01:03:02,300
Vitalik said something like,

2447
01:03:02,380 --> 01:03:02,420
oh,

2448
01:03:02,420 --> 01:03:04,040
we're no longer bound

2449
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:05,060
to the laws of physics.

2450
01:03:05,060 --> 01:03:06,180
We're no longer bound

2451
01:03:06,180 --> 01:03:07,000
to physical law.

2452
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:07,200
Like,

2453
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:08,220
we can do anything now.

2454
01:03:08,220 --> 01:03:09,260
We can shitcoin.

2455
01:03:09,380 --> 01:03:09,500
It's,

2456
01:03:09,500 --> 01:03:10,840
it's literally make-believe now.

2457
01:03:10,940 --> 01:03:11,080
It's,

2458
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:11,640
it's so funny

2459
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:12,320
how this evolved,

2460
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:12,760
by the way,

2461
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:13,760
because there's now literally,

2462
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:14,000
like,

2463
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:14,340
I don't know,

2464
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:16,060
like 20 million coins

2465
01:03:16,060 --> 01:03:16,860
on CoinMarketCap

2466
01:03:16,860 --> 01:03:17,240
and it's like,

2467
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:18,560
no one is even pretending anymore.

2468
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:19,580
It's just like,

2469
01:03:19,700 --> 01:03:21,300
there's the physical reality

2470
01:03:21,300 --> 01:03:21,700
of Bitcoin

2471
01:03:21,700 --> 01:03:23,120
and there's everything else.

2472
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:23,880
There's everything else.

2473
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:25,360
Complete bullshit.

2474
01:03:25,980 --> 01:03:26,200
And,

2475
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:26,800
and that's what I,

2476
01:03:26,860 --> 01:03:27,520
that's what I like

2477
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:28,300
about Nostra so much.

2478
01:03:28,340 --> 01:03:29,620
It really leans into the,

2479
01:03:29,900 --> 01:03:30,100
the,

2480
01:03:30,100 --> 01:03:30,540
the,

2481
01:03:30,540 --> 01:03:32,780
the nature of information itself.

2482
01:03:33,500 --> 01:03:35,000
It really leans into

2483
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:36,400
the nature of information itself.

2484
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:37,140
So,

2485
01:03:37,420 --> 01:03:38,720
so it doesn't try

2486
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:39,480
to produce

2487
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:40,600
a global state.

2488
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:41,860
It doesn't try to be

2489
01:03:41,860 --> 01:03:42,740
perfect.

2490
01:03:42,740 --> 01:03:43,120
It's like,

2491
01:03:43,220 --> 01:03:44,120
the stuff is messy.

2492
01:03:44,180 --> 01:03:44,680
If you see it,

2493
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:45,120
you see it.

2494
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:45,320
That's what,

2495
01:03:45,380 --> 01:03:45,540
that's what,

2496
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:45,860
by the way,

2497
01:03:45,900 --> 01:03:46,720
that's why it is my,

2498
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:48,360
my profile banner pic.

2499
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:49,840
It's one of the best memes

2500
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:50,520
I ever saw.

2501
01:03:50,660 --> 01:03:50,960
It's like,

2502
01:03:51,260 --> 01:03:51,560
you know,

2503
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:52,080
it's the,

2504
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:53,960
it's from Rocky,

2505
01:03:54,060 --> 01:03:54,200
right?

2506
01:03:54,220 --> 01:03:54,360
Like,

2507
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:54,800
if he dies,

2508
01:03:54,860 --> 01:03:55,320
he dies.

2509
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:56,720
It's before the fight

2510
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:58,080
and someone put an ostrich

2511
01:03:58,080 --> 01:03:58,460
on,

2512
01:03:58,480 --> 01:03:59,120
on top

2513
01:03:59,120 --> 01:03:59,960
and it's like,

2514
01:04:00,020 --> 01:04:00,660
if he sees it,

2515
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:01,280
he sees it.

2516
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:02,240
That's Nostra.

2517
01:04:02,420 --> 01:04:02,540
Like,

2518
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:02,880
it's like,

2519
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:03,600
there's no guarantees

2520
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:04,420
that you're going to see

2521
01:04:04,420 --> 01:04:05,140
what I put out,

2522
01:04:05,260 --> 01:04:06,140
but if you see it,

2523
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:06,320
like,

2524
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:07,020
you're going to see it.

2525
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:07,300
It's like,

2526
01:04:07,380 --> 01:04:07,460
I,

2527
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:08,380
and there's also nothing

2528
01:04:08,380 --> 01:04:09,260
I can do about it.

2529
01:04:09,300 --> 01:04:09,640
It's like,

2530
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:09,940
I can,

2531
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:10,200
you know,

2532
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:11,200
like pinky promise

2533
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:12,160
requests for deletion,

2534
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:13,100
but it's like,

2535
01:04:13,180 --> 01:04:13,520
you know,

2536
01:04:14,060 --> 01:04:14,420
there's,

2537
01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:16,000
I'm not sure if they already exist,

2538
01:04:16,100 --> 01:04:17,220
but there is going to be relays

2539
01:04:17,220 --> 01:04:19,440
that only keep the deleted events,

2540
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:19,900
just like,

2541
01:04:19,940 --> 01:04:20,100
you know,

2542
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:21,020
Twitter deleted

2543
01:04:21,020 --> 01:04:21,860
and all those kind of things.

2544
01:04:21,980 --> 01:04:22,220
Oh yeah,

2545
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:22,560
for sure.

2546
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:23,880
Like all the embarrassing stuff

2547
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:25,060
is going to be in one relay,

2548
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:25,800
neatly,

2549
01:04:26,020 --> 01:04:26,620
neatly,

2550
01:04:26,620 --> 01:04:27,920
neatly stored forever.

2551
01:04:29,300 --> 01:04:30,320
And that's just how it works.

2552
01:04:30,380 --> 01:04:31,400
That's how information works.

2553
01:04:31,980 --> 01:04:32,100
And,

2554
01:04:32,100 --> 01:04:32,360
and,

2555
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:33,680
and pretending otherwise

2556
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:34,100
is,

2557
01:04:34,100 --> 01:04:35,240
is very disingenuous.

2558
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:35,600
And,

2559
01:04:35,620 --> 01:04:36,160
and you will,

2560
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:37,360
if you,

2561
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:39,040
and that's the thing,

2562
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:39,340
that's why,

2563
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:40,240
that's why I'm kind of,

2564
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:40,840
you know,

2565
01:04:40,860 --> 01:04:41,100
like,

2566
01:04:41,220 --> 01:04:43,760
I don't know what the right adjective is,

2567
01:04:44,060 --> 01:04:44,180
but,

2568
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:45,440
but if you,

2569
01:04:45,580 --> 01:04:46,660
if you,

2570
01:04:46,700 --> 01:04:47,260
if you do the,

2571
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:48,600
if you lean into the,

2572
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:50,100
the Vitalik way of doing things,

2573
01:04:50,100 --> 01:04:51,780
like there is no objective reality,

2574
01:04:51,900 --> 01:04:52,660
everything is made up

2575
01:04:52,660 --> 01:04:53,640
and physics doesn't exist,

2576
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:55,320
you will run into problems.

2577
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:58,440
You will run into intractable problems.

2578
01:04:59,100 --> 01:04:59,500
And,

2579
01:04:59,580 --> 01:05:00,680
and just like with the,

2580
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:01,300
like we mentioned,

2581
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:02,500
the people that try to make

2582
01:05:02,500 --> 01:05:03,720
a global state happen in Nostra,

2583
01:05:03,900 --> 01:05:05,780
you will run into intractable problems.

2584
01:05:05,780 --> 01:05:05,880
Oh,

2585
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:06,280
a hundred percent.

2586
01:05:06,740 --> 01:05:07,660
I think,

2587
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,700
I think once you start going for those,

2588
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:14,640
solving those unsolvable problems,

2589
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,900
you end up creating so much complexity,

2590
01:05:17,900 --> 01:05:19,940
like you add complexity on top of complexity.

2591
01:05:20,060 --> 01:05:20,360
That way,

2592
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:20,760
I mean,

2593
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:21,920
Ethereum looks the way it looks.

2594
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:22,240
Yeah.

2595
01:05:22,380 --> 01:05:23,860
It's incredibly complex.

2596
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:25,240
Or to keep on the Nostra side,

2597
01:05:25,300 --> 01:05:26,240
another thing is like,

2598
01:05:26,580 --> 01:05:29,900
you cannot give people the same flexibility and freedom

2599
01:05:29,900 --> 01:05:31,320
while holding all their keys.

2600
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,740
You can't do it.

2601
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,840
You can't solve this problem just by,

2602
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:37,600
by doing that.

2603
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:38,460
Should we turn around?

2604
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:38,640
Yeah,

2605
01:05:38,700 --> 01:05:39,220
let's turn around.

2606
01:05:39,620 --> 01:05:40,100
If I go,

2607
01:05:40,140 --> 01:05:41,160
if I go up more,

2608
01:05:41,260 --> 01:05:41,740
then I'll be,

2609
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:42,560
I'll just die.

2610
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:44,860
It's hot as well.

2611
01:05:45,540 --> 01:05:46,780
So let's go back into the wind.

2612
01:05:46,780 --> 01:05:50,020
It might pull us down a bit.

2613
01:05:50,660 --> 01:05:50,940
But yeah,

2614
01:05:51,020 --> 01:05:51,320
I guess,

2615
01:05:51,420 --> 01:05:53,620
I guess that's the overarching theme here,

2616
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:53,780
right?

2617
01:05:53,780 --> 01:05:58,820
Like there's so much confusion because people think that there is perfect solutions to those

2618
01:05:58,820 --> 01:05:59,160
things.

2619
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:01,860
And what we are trying to point out is like,

2620
01:06:01,940 --> 01:06:03,080
there's no solutions.

2621
01:06:03,180 --> 01:06:04,220
There's actually only trade-offs,

2622
01:06:04,380 --> 01:06:08,480
but you have to be crystal clear about the problem space.

2623
01:06:09,020 --> 01:06:12,120
And that there is various things that you just cannot solve.

2624
01:06:13,140 --> 01:06:14,000
And I think the,

2625
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:14,260
the,

2626
01:06:14,260 --> 01:06:15,280
yeah,

2627
01:06:15,420 --> 01:06:16,620
the first three or,

2628
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:17,180
or whatever,

2629
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:17,500
like,

2630
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,900
I think it hits at the core of a lot of the things that we saw.

2631
01:06:21,220 --> 01:06:21,760
It's like,

2632
01:06:21,860 --> 01:06:24,920
you cannot have a global state in a distributed system.

2633
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:26,440
The only,

2634
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,220
the only thing that can emulate that is Bitcoin itself.

2635
01:06:29,260 --> 01:06:30,960
So you need proof of work and all those kinds of things and blah,

2636
01:06:30,980 --> 01:06:31,080
blah,

2637
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:31,220
blah.

2638
01:06:31,420 --> 01:06:31,640
But,

2639
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:32,020
but other,

2640
01:06:32,100 --> 01:06:32,580
other than that,

2641
01:06:32,620 --> 01:06:33,480
you just can't have it.

2642
01:06:34,020 --> 01:06:37,880
And just because Bitcoin is not pretending to keep state outside of the system.

2643
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:38,040
Yeah,

2644
01:06:38,140 --> 01:06:38,380
exactly.

2645
01:06:38,380 --> 01:06:39,320
The state of the system.

2646
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:39,500
I mean,

2647
01:06:39,540 --> 01:06:39,660
the,

2648
01:06:39,660 --> 01:06:40,580
the Oracle problem also,

2649
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:41,240
you can't solve it.

2650
01:06:41,420 --> 01:06:41,600
Yes.

2651
01:06:41,620 --> 01:06:44,200
It's like Bitcoin solves the Oracle problem by the link of,

2652
01:06:44,620 --> 01:06:44,780
Well,

2653
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:45,920
Chainlink did,

2654
01:06:45,940 --> 01:06:46,640
did solve it.

2655
01:06:47,460 --> 01:06:50,060
Because Chainlink 1 did not because it had the Oracle problem.

2656
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:50,560
So then,

2657
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:51,840
then they introduced Chainlink 2.

2658
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:52,680
Did you know this?

2659
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:52,900
No.

2660
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:53,880
It's insane,

2661
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:54,100
man.

2662
01:06:54,220 --> 01:06:57,540
Like when they were faced with the idea of Oracle collusion.

2663
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:01,280
So the first idea was that you have all these Oracles and then you make like,

2664
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:01,800
I don't know,

2665
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,160
you grab four of them and you say,

2666
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:03,360
okay,

2667
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:03,640
well,

2668
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:06,400
then now three of them need to collude in order to,

2669
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:06,680
to,

2670
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:07,400
to lie to me.

2671
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:08,660
And they,

2672
01:07:08,660 --> 01:07:08,860
well,

2673
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:09,120
yeah,

2674
01:07:09,180 --> 01:07:09,760
they can.

2675
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:10,100
So,

2676
01:07:10,380 --> 01:07:10,600
okay,

2677
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:13,100
let's introduce a second layer of Oracles.

2678
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:14,780
That's how like master Oracles.

2679
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:15,180
Ah,

2680
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:15,420
sure.

2681
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:16,320
So,

2682
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:17,620
problem solved,

2683
01:07:17,700 --> 01:07:17,920
GG.

2684
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:18,780
Absolutely trust.

2685
01:07:18,940 --> 01:07:19,020
Yeah,

2686
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:19,340
yeah,

2687
01:07:19,340 --> 01:07:19,640
yeah.

2688
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:21,260
That's how it always works.

2689
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:23,060
That's how it always works.

2690
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:23,760
Yeah.

2691
01:07:23,900 --> 01:07:24,400
And like,

2692
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:24,880
again,

2693
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:26,440
like the nature of data itself,

2694
01:07:26,580 --> 01:07:29,820
like you can't really own data and you can't also prove deletion of data.

2695
01:07:30,020 --> 01:07:30,580
It's like,

2696
01:07:30,660 --> 01:07:30,880
if you,

2697
01:07:30,940 --> 01:07:32,260
if you actually understand this,

2698
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:32,920
like,

2699
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:33,960
because a lot of the,

2700
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:35,900
the systems that I see that people try to build,

2701
01:07:35,900 --> 01:07:36,440
they,

2702
01:07:36,540 --> 01:07:37,980
they are very disingenuous about this.

2703
01:07:38,140 --> 01:07:38,740
It's like,

2704
01:07:38,780 --> 01:07:38,960
you know,

2705
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:39,120
ah,

2706
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:40,840
pinky promise we deleted it and so on.

2707
01:07:41,180 --> 01:07:41,440
Uh,

2708
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:42,280
or it's like,

2709
01:07:42,340 --> 01:07:42,520
they,

2710
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:42,640
they,

2711
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:48,440
they will talk about data ownership without even kind of realizing what that means or,

2712
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:51,260
or what it implies or that like data ownership is a lie in some sense.

2713
01:07:51,260 --> 01:07:52,200
It's like the,

2714
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:52,500
again,

2715
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:54,500
like you can simulate ownership by keeping a secret,

2716
01:07:54,500 --> 01:07:58,600
like exclusive knowledge is what simulates ownership in the world of data.

2717
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:03,980
But that implies that someone needs to be responsible to not leak the secret,

2718
01:08:04,300 --> 01:08:04,520
you know?

2719
01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:04,920
And again,

2720
01:08:05,020 --> 01:08:05,100
like,

2721
01:08:05,180 --> 01:08:06,540
I mean,

2722
01:08:06,580 --> 01:08:07,400
I feel like I'm,

2723
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:09,900
I have a broken record and we're always talking about the same things,

2724
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:11,160
but it's actually important.

2725
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:11,860
It's like,

2726
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:14,000
and you can't abstract that away.

2727
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:14,440
It's,

2728
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:17,380
it's someone has to be responsible for the secret.

2729
01:08:17,480 --> 01:08:18,800
And if that someone is not the user,

2730
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:19,920
then the user is not in charge.

2731
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:20,180
Period.

2732
01:08:20,180 --> 01:08:20,300
Right.

2733
01:08:21,340 --> 01:08:21,820
Yeah.

2734
01:08:21,940 --> 01:08:22,140
I,

2735
01:08:22,140 --> 01:08:24,000
I have the impression,

2736
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:25,000
I'm wondering if you,

2737
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:26,980
if you have the same feelings or if you have more,

2738
01:08:26,980 --> 01:08:27,480
um,

2739
01:08:27,900 --> 01:08:29,400
information or knowledge about it,

2740
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:31,620
but do you think that this,

2741
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:32,280
um,

2742
01:08:32,980 --> 01:08:34,760
intention of abstracting everything,

2743
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:36,260
all the complexity away,

2744
01:08:36,900 --> 01:08:37,520
is it,

2745
01:08:37,620 --> 01:08:38,360
is it new?

2746
01:08:39,220 --> 01:08:39,500
It,

2747
01:08:39,620 --> 01:08:41,880
did it exist 300 years ago?

2748
01:08:43,740 --> 01:08:44,260
Huh?

2749
01:08:44,260 --> 01:08:44,980
I mean,

2750
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:45,560
I think,

2751
01:08:45,820 --> 01:08:49,320
I think in,

2752
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:50,540
in some sense,

2753
01:08:50,780 --> 01:08:55,320
people lost a lot of self-reliance in some sense,

2754
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:56,620
um,

2755
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:58,380
uh,

2756
01:08:58,500 --> 01:09:01,700
because society works so well and a lot of the things are taken care of.

2757
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:02,720
Um,

2758
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:04,580
that's definitely part of it.

2759
01:09:04,900 --> 01:09:05,220
But,

2760
01:09:05,260 --> 01:09:05,800
but I also,

2761
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:06,060
I,

2762
01:09:06,060 --> 01:09:07,020
I really think it's,

2763
01:09:07,700 --> 01:09:08,300
it's,

2764
01:09:08,420 --> 01:09:11,680
we have to give people some credit and users some credit,

2765
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:13,000
like people can figure it out.

2766
01:09:13,380 --> 01:09:13,780
And,

2767
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:14,140
and,

2768
01:09:14,140 --> 01:09:14,700
um,

2769
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:16,000
I,

2770
01:09:16,500 --> 01:09:19,300
in some sense,

2771
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:27,960
I think we just have to build for those that are willing to take the responsibility,

2772
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,540
offer these options,

2773
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:31,420
build those tools,

2774
01:09:31,420 --> 01:09:43,940
and educate as much as we can about the drawbacks of not being responsible for your online life,

2775
01:09:43,940 --> 01:09:48,080
and not taking control of your destiny in cyberspace,

2776
01:09:48,220 --> 01:09:48,660
so to speak.

2777
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:49,880
I think it will,

2778
01:09:50,020 --> 01:09:53,120
it will be more apparent as time moves on,

2779
01:09:53,180 --> 01:09:53,400
like,

2780
01:09:53,860 --> 01:09:56,180
as more of your identity and your existence moves online,

2781
01:09:56,260 --> 01:09:56,520
which is,

2782
01:09:56,620 --> 01:09:56,860
I mean,

2783
01:09:56,900 --> 01:09:57,500
it has been happening.

2784
01:09:57,620 --> 01:09:57,900
Oh yeah.

2785
01:09:57,980 --> 01:09:58,400
For the last,

2786
01:09:58,500 --> 01:09:58,760
I don't know,

2787
01:09:58,800 --> 01:09:59,460
20 years plus,

2788
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:01,640
but people really care.

2789
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:02,300
I mean,

2790
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:05,640
the most important thing that people possess nowadays is their phone.

2791
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:07,760
Your whole life is in your phone.

2792
01:10:09,140 --> 01:10:09,320
And,

2793
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:09,900
and,

2794
01:10:09,980 --> 01:10:12,500
a lot of people build their existence around whatever,

2795
01:10:12,700 --> 01:10:12,860
you know,

2796
01:10:12,900 --> 01:10:14,200
their YouTube channel or what have you,

2797
01:10:14,380 --> 01:10:16,980
or around certain online communities and so on.

2798
01:10:17,660 --> 01:10:17,920
And,

2799
01:10:18,140 --> 01:10:18,540
um,

2800
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:19,700
I mean,

2801
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:22,600
times are so volatile now where,

2802
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:23,340
you know,

2803
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:25,820
people are actually getting debanked and deplatformed for

2804
01:10:25,820 --> 01:10:27,840
very benign things,

2805
01:10:27,900 --> 01:10:28,860
you know,

2806
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:30,320
like voicing opinions that,

2807
01:10:30,420 --> 01:10:31,140
I don't know,

2808
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:32,620
there's only two genders,

2809
01:10:32,740 --> 01:10:33,080
for example,

2810
01:10:33,220 --> 01:10:33,800
or what have you,

2811
01:10:33,900 --> 01:10:34,160
you know,

2812
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:34,640
terrorists.

2813
01:10:34,940 --> 01:10:35,080
Yeah,

2814
01:10:35,180 --> 01:10:37,440
absolutely labeled like enemy of the state,

2815
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:38,280
terrorist and so on.

2816
01:10:38,480 --> 01:10:38,900
And,

2817
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:40,060
and I think this will,

2818
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:40,900
like,

2819
01:10:40,940 --> 01:10:42,960
even with the political change that just happened in the US,

2820
01:10:43,060 --> 01:10:44,640
that will just,

2821
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:51,880
that will just continue because if we have systems where someone in the

2822
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:52,940
middle is in full control,

2823
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:54,500
this control will be exercised.

2824
01:10:54,500 --> 01:10:56,460
If there is a block button,

2825
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:57,840
the block button will be pressed.

2826
01:10:57,940 --> 01:10:58,420
If there is a,

2827
01:10:58,420 --> 01:10:58,780
you know,

2828
01:10:58,840 --> 01:10:59,260
the platform,

2829
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:00,540
this person button,

2830
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:00,800
the,

2831
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:01,100
the,

2832
01:11:01,100 --> 01:11:01,480
the,

2833
01:11:01,480 --> 01:11:02,400
the button will be pressed.

2834
01:11:02,700 --> 01:11:02,860
It's,

2835
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:03,060
it,

2836
01:11:03,060 --> 01:11:04,300
I think in some sense,

2837
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:05,200
it's,

2838
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:05,320
it's what,

2839
01:11:05,380 --> 01:11:05,600
what,

2840
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:05,900
what,

2841
01:11:05,900 --> 01:11:07,380
what Satoshi figured out with Bitcoin is like,

2842
01:11:07,460 --> 01:11:08,460
if there is a printing press,

2843
01:11:09,140 --> 01:11:11,540
the printing press will be used because if there,

2844
01:11:11,540 --> 01:11:11,680
there,

2845
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:16,800
there will be a war or emergency emergency or whatever big enough to mess with

2846
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:18,680
the monetary supply to find an excuse.

2847
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:20,180
And that's actually what gold,

2848
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:22,060
why gold was used because gold,

2849
01:11:22,180 --> 01:11:24,200
gold moves the question,

2850
01:11:24,500 --> 01:11:26,160
of monetary,

2851
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:30,880
monetary policy from the realm of politics into the realm of physics.

2852
01:11:31,100 --> 01:11:31,860
Bitcoin does the same.

2853
01:11:31,980 --> 01:11:32,800
So it removes,

2854
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:34,680
removes humans from the equation.

2855
01:11:35,060 --> 01:11:36,820
And I think we have to do,

2856
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:40,500
make the same move in kind of all of cyberspace in some sense.

2857
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:44,700
And Nostra makes this move for your online life in some sense,

2858
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:45,880
like for your address book,

2859
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:46,880
for your profile,

2860
01:11:47,060 --> 01:11:48,760
for your identity in some sense,

2861
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:49,060
you know,

2862
01:11:49,140 --> 01:11:49,660
for your,

2863
01:11:49,740 --> 01:11:51,260
the stuff that you put out,

2864
01:11:51,340 --> 01:11:53,280
the content that you put out and all those kinds of things.

2865
01:11:54,060 --> 01:11:54,080
And,

2866
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:54,480
and,

2867
01:11:54,480 --> 01:11:55,680
and so I think,

2868
01:11:56,740 --> 01:12:01,480
it's going to be the same as it was on the Bitcoin side.

2869
01:12:01,580 --> 01:12:01,820
If you,

2870
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,640
if you have to flee from Venezuela,

2871
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:05,980
because otherwise you'll,

2872
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:06,560
you know,

2873
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:08,140
starve to death in the next two weeks,

2874
01:12:08,140 --> 01:12:13,000
I don't have to explain why Bitcoin is interesting or important to you.

2875
01:12:13,300 --> 01:12:13,560
Like you,

2876
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:14,140
you get it.

2877
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:15,120
If you got wrecked enough,

2878
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:15,860
you get it.

2879
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:17,040
And I think on the Nostra side,

2880
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:17,840
it's going to be the same thing.

2881
01:12:18,100 --> 01:12:18,320
It's like,

2882
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:18,740
if you,

2883
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:19,640
if you,

2884
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:20,840
if you hopped,

2885
01:12:21,180 --> 01:12:24,900
like if you got de-platformed five times because of the videos you produce or whatever,

2886
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:26,580
you will,

2887
01:12:26,660 --> 01:12:31,860
you will figure out what kind of system is resilient enough that you can,

2888
01:12:31,980 --> 01:12:32,540
you know,

2889
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:34,720
keep living your life and keep doing what you do,

2890
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:38,340
without this happening again and again and again.

2891
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:41,200
Yeah.

2892
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:41,480
The,

2893
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:42,760
I,

2894
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:43,600
I mean,

2895
01:12:43,660 --> 01:12:43,860
we,

2896
01:12:43,860 --> 01:12:44,900
we also discussed this.

2897
01:12:44,900 --> 01:12:45,120
I,

2898
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:52,300
I think Nostra will shine not for the lack of pain.

2899
01:12:52,740 --> 01:12:55,920
Like it will push people into Nostra because they get burned.

2900
01:12:56,220 --> 01:12:57,340
But I think the vast,

2901
01:12:57,420 --> 01:13:00,060
vast majority of people will come because the experience is just better.

2902
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:00,540
Because it's awesome.

2903
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:01,440
It's just fucking better.

2904
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:03,320
It's just way early.

2905
01:13:03,700 --> 01:13:04,680
It's really hard to see.

2906
01:13:04,820 --> 01:13:05,060
I,

2907
01:13:05,060 --> 01:13:07,960
I feel like we're kind of close to that because there is no,

2908
01:13:08,700 --> 01:13:11,320
and also because of Nostra and I think also because of DVMs.

2909
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:11,740
Yeah.

2910
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:12,280
Because,

2911
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:13,840
because I think with,

2912
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:15,780
with LLMs and all the AI stuff and so on,

2913
01:13:16,100 --> 01:13:19,260
you need something and people are figuring this out right now.

2914
01:13:19,340 --> 01:13:20,820
You need something,

2915
01:13:21,340 --> 01:13:26,680
you need an underlying substrate for AI agents that is actually open.

2916
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:31,520
And that includes money in some sense that so,

2917
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:35,500
so that the agents can pay themselves and collaborate and find each other.

2918
01:13:35,500 --> 01:13:35,640
Yeah.

2919
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:36,740
And also limit themselves.

2920
01:13:36,740 --> 01:13:37,160
Yeah.

2921
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:38,440
Like you need to give those agents budgets,

2922
01:13:38,440 --> 01:13:38,900
for example,

2923
01:13:38,900 --> 01:13:39,600
and those kinds of things.

2924
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:39,980
It's like,

2925
01:13:39,980 --> 01:13:40,320
yes,

2926
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:41,380
compute this car and so on,

2927
01:13:41,380 --> 01:13:42,060
but still you need,

2928
01:13:42,420 --> 01:13:44,900
you need marketplaces to figure out a lot of these things out.

2929
01:13:45,300 --> 01:13:46,320
And Nostra provides the,

2930
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:47,000
the,

2931
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:47,680
the ground,

2932
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:48,260
so to speak.

2933
01:13:48,420 --> 01:13:49,560
It provides the physics,

2934
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:50,040
if you will,

2935
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:50,380
for,

2936
01:13:50,380 --> 01:13:50,780
for,

2937
01:13:50,780 --> 01:13:51,720
for this ecosystem.

2938
01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:52,320
Yeah.

2939
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:54,520
And it can't work in like a closed system,

2940
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:55,160
like for all the,

2941
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:56,260
the reasons we mentioned that.

2942
01:13:56,260 --> 01:13:56,380
So,

2943
01:13:56,380 --> 01:13:57,220
but yeah,

2944
01:13:57,220 --> 01:13:57,540
I'm,

2945
01:13:57,540 --> 01:13:58,160
I,

2946
01:13:58,160 --> 01:13:59,680
I rented so much now that I'm,

2947
01:13:59,680 --> 01:13:59,940
I'm,

2948
01:13:59,940 --> 01:14:00,620
I'm close to,

2949
01:14:00,620 --> 01:14:04,120
to that's like,

2950
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:05,400
we don't have a limit on this,

2951
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:07,440
but it's like after like 60 minutes or so,

2952
01:14:07,440 --> 01:14:08,460
I die of heat stroke.

2953
01:14:08,460 --> 01:14:10,120
And that's like a good place to end.

2954
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:14,260
I feel like it's only going to get worse because we're going into the summer.

2955
01:14:14,260 --> 01:14:14,600
So,

2956
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:16,060
Oh yeah,

2957
01:14:16,060 --> 01:14:16,880
it's going to get hotter,

2958
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:20,160
but yeah,

2959
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:20,540
no,

2960
01:14:20,540 --> 01:14:20,780
I,

2961
01:14:20,780 --> 01:14:21,040
I,

2962
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:21,360
I mean,

2963
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:21,820
I feel like,

2964
01:14:21,860 --> 01:14:22,580
I feel like we're,

2965
01:14:22,580 --> 01:14:24,660
we're two old guys sitting on the,

2966
01:14:24,660 --> 01:14:24,880
on the,

2967
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:26,460
on the lawn and screaming at the kids.

2968
01:14:26,540 --> 01:14:26,780
Yeah.

2969
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:27,820
So sometimes I,

2970
01:14:27,820 --> 01:14:28,120
I,

2971
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:29,180
I think a little bit about,

2972
01:14:29,300 --> 01:14:34,080
about that in the sense as we are recreating a,

2973
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:37,400
a web that is far less permissioned,

2974
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:39,960
which is where we grew up in,

2975
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:40,560
right?

2976
01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:42,020
It looked a lot more like that.

2977
01:14:42,020 --> 01:14:42,440
Yeah.

2978
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:42,760
Like,

2979
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:43,000
you know,

2980
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:44,280
like the geo cities and whatnot.

2981
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:44,480
Yeah.

2982
01:14:44,480 --> 01:14:45,160
Um,

2983
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:47,840
and that's one thing that I,

2984
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:48,320
that we,

2985
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:49,300
we mentioned as well.

2986
01:14:49,300 --> 01:14:49,860
Um,

2987
01:14:49,860 --> 01:14:50,680
and I,

2988
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:52,420
I think actually in the first cohort,

2989
01:14:52,420 --> 01:14:52,800
but I,

2990
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:54,100
I think I mentioned it a couple of times.

2991
01:14:54,100 --> 01:14:54,780
It's,

2992
01:14:54,780 --> 01:14:55,780
I think we have to be careful.

2993
01:14:55,780 --> 01:14:56,780
Um,

2994
01:14:56,780 --> 01:14:57,560
and that's,

2995
01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:58,800
it's not even my line.

2996
01:14:58,800 --> 01:14:59,440
Um,

2997
01:14:59,440 --> 01:14:59,740
but,

2998
01:14:59,740 --> 01:15:00,360
but,

2999
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:01,100
uh,

3000
01:15:01,100 --> 01:15:03,100
neither nostalgia nor utopia.

3001
01:15:03,100 --> 01:15:04,020
Like we,

3002
01:15:04,020 --> 01:15:04,200
we,

3003
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:07,400
we must not make the mistake of being nostalgic about geo cities or,

3004
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:07,900
yeah,

3005
01:15:07,900 --> 01:15:08,620
absolutely.

3006
01:15:08,780 --> 01:15:10,020
And rebuild it exactly.

3007
01:15:10,020 --> 01:15:10,600
And so on,

3008
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:12,280
but it had a lot of good things.

3009
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:12,540
Yes.

3010
01:15:12,540 --> 01:15:13,380
Just like all traditions.

3011
01:15:13,380 --> 01:15:14,820
They have a lot of good things.

3012
01:15:14,820 --> 01:15:15,740
And,

3013
01:15:15,740 --> 01:15:17,100
and also it's not going to be utopia.

3014
01:15:17,100 --> 01:15:17,580
And it's,

3015
01:15:17,580 --> 01:15:20,280
I think that's a lot of what a lot of the Bitcoiners got wrong in some sense.

3016
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:21,620
It's like Bitcoin is no utopia,

3017
01:15:21,620 --> 01:15:22,140
not at all.

3018
01:15:22,140 --> 01:15:22,580
It's like,

3019
01:15:22,580 --> 01:15:22,880
it's,

3020
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:23,260
it's,

3021
01:15:23,260 --> 01:15:27,420
you actually have to take responsibility to enjoy the freedom of that Bitcoin brings

3022
01:15:27,420 --> 01:15:29,720
you and taking responsibility is not utopic,

3023
01:15:29,860 --> 01:15:30,580
not utopic.

3024
01:15:30,820 --> 01:15:31,100
It's,

3025
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:31,720
it's hard.

3026
01:15:31,860 --> 01:15:34,980
It's like you have to put in the work and you have to actually be responsible for

3027
01:15:34,980 --> 01:15:36,020
those things and so on.

3028
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:37,140
And the same on the NASA side,

3029
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:37,820
it's not a utopia.

3030
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:38,540
It's not like,

3031
01:15:38,980 --> 01:15:39,220
you know,

3032
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:39,700
you just,

3033
01:15:39,740 --> 01:15:40,160
uh,

3034
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:42,960
lay on the couch and get fat cake all day long.

3035
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:44,240
And that's why you don't have to do anything.

3036
01:15:44,380 --> 01:15:47,000
You actually have to put in some work into Noster to,

3037
01:15:47,100 --> 01:15:48,960
to enjoy the freedom that it brings you.

3038
01:15:49,180 --> 01:15:49,920
It's like you,

3039
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:52,460
you're depending on what you do and who you are and how you use it.

3040
01:15:52,460 --> 01:15:53,260
If you're a power user,

3041
01:15:53,260 --> 01:15:54,200
you might want to,

3042
01:15:54,580 --> 01:15:54,800
you know,

3043
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:57,820
like run your own relay or even run your own mint or what have you to,

3044
01:15:57,820 --> 01:15:59,000
to enjoy all this stuff.

3045
01:15:59,580 --> 01:15:59,660
And,

3046
01:15:59,720 --> 01:15:59,880
and,

3047
01:15:59,980 --> 01:16:01,060
and so I think that's,

3048
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:02,240
that's also something that,

3049
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:07,200
that we have to really kind of be more outspoken about in some sense,

3050
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:07,520
because,

3051
01:16:07,700 --> 01:16:09,820
because a lot of people that are really bullish on this stuff,

3052
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:11,740
they will tell you that,

3053
01:16:11,860 --> 01:16:12,220
oh yeah,

3054
01:16:12,220 --> 01:16:13,120
it's going to be utopia.

3055
01:16:13,300 --> 01:16:14,420
It's everything's going to be amazing.

3056
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:14,660
It's like,

3057
01:16:14,660 --> 01:16:14,880
no,

3058
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:15,320
it's like,

3059
01:16:15,340 --> 01:16:16,840
there is no utopic solution.

3060
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:17,640
There isn't.

3061
01:16:17,740 --> 01:16:20,560
I think that's where I was wrong with building an insect bunker.

3062
01:16:21,020 --> 01:16:23,200
It's thinking you can,

3063
01:16:23,300 --> 01:16:25,420
you can not reach utopia,

3064
01:16:25,420 --> 01:16:26,080
but like,

3065
01:16:26,180 --> 01:16:26,520
uh,

3066
01:16:26,580 --> 01:16:28,180
like approach utopia,

3067
01:16:28,380 --> 01:16:28,660
you know,

3068
01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:29,840
and I was just,

3069
01:16:30,480 --> 01:16:31,760
I was struck away the key.

3070
01:16:33,380 --> 01:16:34,420
I was so young.

3071
01:16:34,420 --> 01:16:38,600
One and a half years ago.

3072
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:38,940
Yeah.

3073
01:16:38,940 --> 01:16:39,420
Learned a lot.

3074
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:40,480
Yeah.

3075
01:16:40,540 --> 01:16:40,860
I think,

3076
01:16:40,940 --> 01:16:44,860
I think one of the things that it's,

3077
01:16:44,860 --> 01:16:46,420
it's very hard to figure out beforehand,

3078
01:16:46,420 --> 01:16:47,400
but there is some,

3079
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:54,160
there's some kind of solutions that make stuff worse over time.

3080
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:56,880
And there's other solutions that make stuff better over time.

3081
01:16:57,700 --> 01:16:59,720
and like Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining is a great example.

3082
01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:01,000
I think Bitcoin mining in,

3083
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:01,680
in essence,

3084
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:03,060
it gets better over time.

3085
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:04,320
It gets more distributed.

3086
01:17:04,540 --> 01:17:05,100
It's it's it's,

3087
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:06,980
and we had this metaphors for a long time.

3088
01:17:06,980 --> 01:17:07,300
It's like,

3089
01:17:07,300 --> 01:17:10,080
it finds the stranded energy and all those kinds of things,

3090
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:10,400
you know,

3091
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:12,100
and it finds a nice equilibrium.

3092
01:17:12,480 --> 01:17:14,020
It's not going to eat up all the world's energy,

3093
01:17:14,100 --> 01:17:14,500
for example,

3094
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:14,920
and so on.

3095
01:17:14,980 --> 01:17:15,200
It's like,

3096
01:17:15,300 --> 01:17:16,480
I read it in some report.

3097
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:16,780
Yeah.

3098
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:17,600
By 2020,

3099
01:17:17,740 --> 01:17:18,280
we're going to be fucked.

3100
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:19,960
It's like we're going to boil the oceans,

3101
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:20,160
everything.

3102
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:20,760
And,

3103
01:17:20,860 --> 01:17:21,260
and,

3104
01:17:21,380 --> 01:17:23,100
and I,

3105
01:17:23,440 --> 01:17:25,700
but it's very hard to know kind of beforehand.

3106
01:17:25,940 --> 01:17:27,240
And Sackbanka gets worse over time.

3107
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:27,720
Oh,

3108
01:17:27,820 --> 01:17:27,920
how?

3109
01:17:28,060 --> 01:17:29,580
And I think I,

3110
01:17:29,580 --> 01:17:33,200
I just looked just a couple of days ago,

3111
01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:34,520
I posted out in Nostra as well.

3112
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:34,780
It's like,

3113
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:34,940
what,

3114
01:17:34,980 --> 01:17:36,160
what are your thoughts on pass keys?

3115
01:17:36,480 --> 01:17:37,820
Half the people didn't understand the question.

3116
01:17:37,900 --> 01:17:38,580
There was funny as well.

3117
01:17:39,440 --> 01:17:41,400
I wasn't talking about YubiKeys.

3118
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:43,160
No,

3119
01:17:43,260 --> 01:17:44,580
the pass key is basically it,

3120
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:45,100
it,

3121
01:17:45,100 --> 01:17:45,440
um,

3122
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:47,360
Google and Apple and,

3123
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:48,260
and one password and,

3124
01:17:48,260 --> 01:17:49,540
and also the YubiKeys people,

3125
01:17:49,580 --> 01:17:50,340
they really push it.

3126
01:17:50,340 --> 01:17:52,140
And it's basically it's,

3127
01:17:52,140 --> 01:17:52,440
it's,

3128
01:17:52,440 --> 01:17:53,880
it's public key cryptography,

3129
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:54,480
but,

3130
01:17:54,580 --> 01:17:55,120
but,

3131
01:17:55,260 --> 01:17:56,360
but the private key,

3132
01:17:56,820 --> 01:17:58,000
you're not really in control.

3133
01:17:58,100 --> 01:18:00,660
It's either on your device or it's with Apple or,

3134
01:18:00,660 --> 01:18:02,540
or in one password and you can't get it out.

3135
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:03,360
So,

3136
01:18:03,440 --> 01:18:03,680
so,

3137
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:07,320
so in some sense you are not in control of your private key because people are bad with keys and they can leak them.

3138
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:07,620
So I,

3139
01:18:07,620 --> 01:18:08,760
I understand where it comes from.

3140
01:18:08,860 --> 01:18:09,180
And I'm,

3141
01:18:09,180 --> 01:18:10,540
I'm not saying they suck.

3142
01:18:10,740 --> 01:18:11,080
It's like,

3143
01:18:11,100 --> 01:18:11,300
it's,

3144
01:18:11,300 --> 01:18:13,160
it's a different kind of trade off again and so on.

3145
01:18:13,380 --> 01:18:13,760
But,

3146
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:14,260
but I,

3147
01:18:14,340 --> 01:18:15,360
I feel like,

3148
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:17,940
I think pass keys are going to get worse over time.

3149
01:18:17,940 --> 01:18:21,180
because it's going to be in like one or two data silos.

3150
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:21,920
Oh yeah,

3151
01:18:21,980 --> 01:18:22,380
absolutely.

3152
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:22,880
And,

3153
01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:23,260
and,

3154
01:18:23,260 --> 01:18:23,520
and,

3155
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:23,840
and,

3156
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:24,280
and,

3157
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:24,540
I mean,

3158
01:18:24,540 --> 01:18:25,220
it's starting there.

3159
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:25,780
Yeah.

3160
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:27,040
It's starting there also.

3161
01:18:27,220 --> 01:18:27,360
Yeah.

3162
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:27,920
And it's also,

3163
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:28,820
it,

3164
01:18:28,820 --> 01:18:29,760
it's,

3165
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:30,020
you know,

3166
01:18:30,020 --> 01:18:31,100
it's this FIDO Alliance.

3167
01:18:31,100 --> 01:18:32,800
It's like the three biggest players come together.

3168
01:18:32,860 --> 01:18:33,820
We're going to do it like this now.

3169
01:18:33,940 --> 01:18:35,500
It's going to be amazing.

3170
01:18:35,620 --> 01:18:37,360
No one has to use passwords ever again.

3171
01:18:37,500 --> 01:18:38,540
No one knows how this stuff works.

3172
01:18:38,540 --> 01:18:38,920
Basically,

3173
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:40,240
it's very confusing for users.

3174
01:18:40,240 --> 01:18:42,700
And you're just locked into the ecosystem forever,

3175
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:43,200
basically,

3176
01:18:43,400 --> 01:18:44,040
in some sense that,

3177
01:18:44,100 --> 01:18:46,340
that I think might be the result.

3178
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:46,800
Oh,

3179
01:18:46,940 --> 01:18:47,840
a hundred percent.

3180
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:49,660
Unless there are some innovations and some,

3181
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:50,320
I don't know.

3182
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:51,520
And it's also,

3183
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:52,680
I think that's the thing.

3184
01:18:52,740 --> 01:18:53,940
You cannot innovate that.

3185
01:18:54,060 --> 01:18:54,560
Like you,

3186
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:55,480
you cannot solve,

3187
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:56,620
you cannot square.

3188
01:18:56,780 --> 01:18:57,440
What's the phrase?

3189
01:18:57,480 --> 01:18:58,400
You cannot square that circle.

3190
01:18:58,400 --> 01:18:58,600
Yeah.

3191
01:18:58,740 --> 01:18:58,880
Yeah.

3192
01:18:58,880 --> 01:18:59,200
You,

3193
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:00,200
you cannot solve that.

3194
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:00,480
Yeah.

3195
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:04,820
Like you either have the key and you control the key or,

3196
01:19:04,820 --> 01:19:06,460
or someone else is controlling the key.

3197
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:07,100
And it's,

3198
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:07,440
again,

3199
01:19:07,480 --> 01:19:07,640
it's,

3200
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:07,800
it's,

3201
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:09,860
it's such an impossible problem because it's the,

3202
01:19:09,860 --> 01:19:10,000
the,

3203
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:10,800
what we landed on,

3204
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:11,100
on the,

3205
01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:12,620
on the authentication world is like,

3206
01:19:13,020 --> 01:19:13,360
uh,

3207
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:14,140
basically something,

3208
01:19:14,140 --> 01:19:14,700
you know,

3209
01:19:14,700 --> 01:19:16,520
and something you own and something you are.

3210
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:16,720
It's,

3211
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:17,300
it's basically,

3212
01:19:17,300 --> 01:19:18,180
it's,

3213
01:19:18,180 --> 01:19:22,700
it's a password and a YubiKey and a biometrics.

3214
01:19:22,820 --> 01:19:23,100
Okay.

3215
01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:23,920
It's something like that.

3216
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:24,440
And,

3217
01:19:24,440 --> 01:19:25,480
and that's the best we can do.

3218
01:19:25,480 --> 01:19:25,920
That's like,

3219
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:26,380
it's very,

3220
01:19:26,380 --> 01:19:28,720
very hard to attack all that and steal all that.

3221
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:31,060
And so on the problem with biometrics is,

3222
01:19:31,060 --> 01:19:33,840
and that's what most people also have no realization of.

3223
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:35,440
Biometrics are usernames and not passwords.

3224
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:36,280
And,

3225
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:36,600
and,

3226
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:37,440
and the,

3227
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:37,700
uh,

3228
01:19:37,700 --> 01:19:38,980
I mean the chaos computer club people,

3229
01:19:38,980 --> 01:19:40,960
they made this readily apparent when they like,

3230
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:41,400
you know,

3231
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:44,780
got a photo from fucking Angela Merkel or whatever.

3232
01:19:44,780 --> 01:19:45,180
And,

3233
01:19:45,180 --> 01:19:46,480
and from the photo,

3234
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:49,360
they reverse engineered the fingerprint and they unlock the phone.

3235
01:19:49,540 --> 01:19:50,840
And you can actually do that.

3236
01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:51,740
It's a high res photo,

3237
01:19:51,860 --> 01:19:53,500
like cameras are good and you,

3238
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,900
you get all the lines and then you print it out and then you use some wax or

3239
01:19:56,900 --> 01:19:57,720
something and so on.

3240
01:19:57,740 --> 01:19:57,860
It's,

3241
01:19:57,860 --> 01:19:58,600
it's not even that hard.

3242
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:00,260
Like you can DIY that stuff.

3243
01:20:00,260 --> 01:20:00,760
And then you just,

3244
01:20:00,940 --> 01:20:01,140
you,

3245
01:20:01,220 --> 01:20:03,720
you put the little film over your own finger and you touch the finger,

3246
01:20:04,020 --> 01:20:05,780
the fingerprint sensor and the phone unlocks.

3247
01:20:05,980 --> 01:20:07,980
So biometrics are usernames.

3248
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:08,680
They're not passwords.

3249
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:09,240
And,

3250
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:10,480
and passwords are actually great.

3251
01:20:10,580 --> 01:20:11,960
People suck at doing passwords,

3252
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:15,500
but people will also suck at doing private keys and pass keys,

3253
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:16,000
for example,

3254
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:16,320
you know,

3255
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:17,080
and the thing is like,

3256
01:20:17,300 --> 01:20:17,520
okay,

3257
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:18,140
everything is like,

3258
01:20:18,140 --> 01:20:20,600
let's say you have the one on device pass key and then,

3259
01:20:20,660 --> 01:20:20,900
you know,

3260
01:20:20,900 --> 01:20:21,300
like you,

3261
01:20:21,300 --> 01:20:22,260
you lose your phone.

3262
01:20:22,500 --> 01:20:23,720
Like you're insanely wrecked.

3263
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:24,740
You're mega wrecked.

3264
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:25,520
You have to,

3265
01:20:25,620 --> 01:20:26,560
you have to call Google.

3266
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:29,100
So in Apple,

3267
01:20:29,100 --> 01:20:31,720
I don't know if that's the way I'm guessing is the same way in Google.

3268
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:32,600
In Apple,

3269
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:33,020
your,

3270
01:20:33,020 --> 01:20:34,820
your pass key is all stored in the cloud.

3271
01:20:34,820 --> 01:20:35,660
In the cloud.

3272
01:20:35,660 --> 01:20:36,660
Of course,

3273
01:20:36,660 --> 01:20:36,940
of course,

3274
01:20:36,940 --> 01:20:37,280
of course,

3275
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:37,540
but,

3276
01:20:37,540 --> 01:20:38,040
but someone,

3277
01:20:38,220 --> 01:20:39,780
the secret has to be somewhere.

3278
01:20:39,780 --> 01:20:40,060
Like,

3279
01:20:40,060 --> 01:20:40,320
yeah,

3280
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:40,520
yeah,

3281
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:41,060
exactly.

3282
01:20:41,060 --> 01:20:41,980
stuff on the cloud.

3283
01:20:41,980 --> 01:20:42,520
Like it's all,

3284
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:43,040
it's,

3285
01:20:43,040 --> 01:20:43,260
it's,

3286
01:20:43,260 --> 01:20:44,420
it's turtles all the way down.

3287
01:20:44,540 --> 01:20:44,960
And that's also,

3288
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:45,260
I mean,

3289
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:45,720
I mean,

3290
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:45,920
we,

3291
01:20:46,220 --> 01:20:49,560
everyone always runs into the same problems and,

3292
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:50,980
and on the nostril side as well.

3293
01:20:51,020 --> 01:20:51,160
Okay.

3294
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:51,460
What is,

3295
01:20:51,580 --> 01:20:52,740
what about key rotation?

3296
01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:53,240
Yeah.

3297
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:53,800
Okay.

3298
01:20:53,860 --> 01:20:54,220
Oh yeah.

3299
01:20:54,220 --> 01:20:55,740
Then you have a master key and you derive,

3300
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:58,280
you derive the thing from the master key and so on.

3301
01:20:58,280 --> 01:20:58,460
Okay.

3302
01:20:58,460 --> 01:20:58,760
What if,

3303
01:20:58,760 --> 01:20:59,960
what if your master key gets stolen?

3304
01:21:00,220 --> 01:21:02,060
Because it's always about compromise and so on.

3305
01:21:02,060 --> 01:21:02,480
And then you,

3306
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:03,000
you,

3307
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:03,460
you know,

3308
01:21:03,460 --> 01:21:04,920
like you timestamp some things.

3309
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:05,120
Okay.

3310
01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:06,560
I'm still in control of my key,

3311
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:07,440
pinky promise.

3312
01:21:07,440 --> 01:21:08,180
And I,

3313
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:08,700
so I,

3314
01:21:08,700 --> 01:21:11,440
I whitelist the next other keys that,

3315
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:12,140
you know,

3316
01:21:12,140 --> 01:21:16,420
I set them up in advance because if my key gets compromised and so on and so forth,

3317
01:21:16,420 --> 01:21:16,980
but it's,

3318
01:21:16,980 --> 01:21:17,280
it's all,

3319
01:21:17,340 --> 01:21:20,560
it's all based in pinky promise because of all the things we talked about,

3320
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:21,740
because you,

3321
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:21,980
you,

3322
01:21:21,980 --> 01:21:24,280
you cannot prove deletion of a key.

3323
01:21:24,860 --> 01:21:25,660
You cannot,

3324
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:26,080
you,

3325
01:21:26,260 --> 01:21:29,660
there is no link between the real world and the world of data.

3326
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:30,900
There just is none.

3327
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:32,220
So if someone steals your key,

3328
01:21:32,780 --> 01:21:37,320
there is no difference between you pretending your key got stolen or you pretending you lost your key or

3329
01:21:37,320 --> 01:21:41,340
someone actually stealing your key or someone actually losing their key.

3330
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:42,100
It's the,

3331
01:21:42,100 --> 01:21:42,380
the,

3332
01:21:42,380 --> 01:21:42,720
the,

3333
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:44,680
the computer system cannot know.

3334
01:21:44,900 --> 01:21:45,060
Yeah.

3335
01:21:45,060 --> 01:21:45,160
Yeah.

3336
01:21:45,740 --> 01:21:46,460
And that's the whole,

3337
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:46,820
that's,

3338
01:21:46,820 --> 01:21:47,700
that's,

3339
01:21:47,700 --> 01:21:47,940
that's,

3340
01:21:47,940 --> 01:21:48,220
that's it.

3341
01:21:48,660 --> 01:21:49,800
You can't solve it.

3342
01:21:49,980 --> 01:21:51,600
So don't pretend that you solved it in some way.

3343
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:52,020
I,

3344
01:21:52,020 --> 01:21:52,920
I think that's why the,

3345
01:21:52,940 --> 01:21:53,220
um,

3346
01:21:53,220 --> 01:21:55,440
this idea of having like a,

3347
01:21:55,440 --> 01:21:57,740
like a social key account,

3348
01:21:57,920 --> 01:21:58,940
whatever identity recover.

3349
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:01,580
It's like retarded as fuck,

3350
01:22:01,580 --> 01:22:03,480
but it's a reality,

3351
01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:03,760
right?

3352
01:22:03,980 --> 01:22:05,220
It's left side of the bell curve,

3353
01:22:05,220 --> 01:22:06,700
which is why it works.

3354
01:22:06,700 --> 01:22:08,780
But we also have to differentiate between,

3355
01:22:08,780 --> 01:22:11,620
between identity and authentication.

3356
01:22:11,620 --> 01:22:12,840
When I wrote that NIP,

3357
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:16,960
NIP 41 there with a key rotation and the pre assigning of the white listing of the key.

3358
01:22:17,060 --> 01:22:17,720
When I wrote that,

3359
01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:18,900
this,

3360
01:22:19,060 --> 01:22:19,200
the,

3361
01:22:19,200 --> 01:22:23,220
the hardest part was how do I name this NIP?

3362
01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:26,640
And I went with key rotation.

3363
01:22:26,980 --> 01:22:28,480
It's both of those are wrong.

3364
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:30,760
Identity migrate.

3365
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:31,440
I think I,

3366
01:22:31,440 --> 01:22:32,000
I landed,

3367
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:33,440
ended up landing on identity migration,

3368
01:22:33,440 --> 01:22:34,440
which is also wrong.

3369
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:35,360
It's,

3370
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:35,660
it's,

3371
01:22:35,660 --> 01:22:37,020
it's just like a pointer.

3372
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:37,480
Yeah,

3373
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:37,740
yeah,

3374
01:22:37,740 --> 01:22:37,900
yeah,

3375
01:22:37,900 --> 01:22:38,220
exactly.

3376
01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:38,600
Exactly.

3377
01:22:38,940 --> 01:22:39,340
But,

3378
01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:43,540
but naming it was so hard because I mean,

3379
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,360
rotation also means a bunch of things,

3380
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:45,600
right?

3381
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:46,440
So it's,

3382
01:22:46,440 --> 01:22:51,980
it's a very problematic term because it actually has a meaning within like PGP and,

3383
01:22:52,100 --> 01:22:52,200
you know,

3384
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:53,340
like it means something.

3385
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:56,960
And what I wrote there is not rotation.

3386
01:22:57,260 --> 01:22:57,360
Yeah.

3387
01:22:58,640 --> 01:22:59,040
But,

3388
01:22:59,120 --> 01:22:59,720
but to me,

3389
01:22:59,740 --> 01:23:00,400
the more I think,

3390
01:23:00,480 --> 01:23:01,360
and I know that when,

3391
01:23:01,460 --> 01:23:02,200
when I wrote that,

3392
01:23:02,340 --> 01:23:03,120
that you were,

3393
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:03,380
you,

3394
01:23:03,380 --> 01:23:06,060
you extremely favored that part of the NIP was,

3395
01:23:06,920 --> 01:23:07,460
you should say,

3396
01:23:07,540 --> 01:23:08,040
Gigi says,

3397
01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:08,220
Oh,

3398
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:09,640
Pablo's league is compromised.

3399
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:10,700
Pablo's new keys.

3400
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:11,240
This one,

3401
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:13,420
people know that we have a relationship.

3402
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:14,920
So they say,

3403
01:23:14,940 --> 01:23:15,060
Oh,

3404
01:23:15,100 --> 01:23:15,260
well,

3405
01:23:15,300 --> 01:23:17,000
Gigi said that this is the new key.

3406
01:23:17,140 --> 01:23:17,260
Okay.

3407
01:23:17,400 --> 01:23:17,960
I'm okay.

3408
01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:18,460
It already works.

3409
01:23:18,580 --> 01:23:18,780
Yeah.

3410
01:23:19,500 --> 01:23:22,060
The best use case for this is American model.

3411
01:23:22,060 --> 01:23:22,940
Fucking American.

3412
01:23:23,940 --> 01:23:24,740
That's fucking it.

3413
01:23:24,820 --> 01:23:25,020
Yes.

3414
01:23:25,020 --> 01:23:27,680
It shows you how key rotation actually works in the real world.

3415
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:28,320
It's like,

3416
01:23:28,320 --> 01:23:30,780
this is Twitter pro for people that are not in the know.

3417
01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:31,440
He,

3418
01:23:31,440 --> 01:23:32,600
he got booted off Twitter.

3419
01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:32,980
I don't know.

3420
01:23:33,060 --> 01:23:33,900
Like 17 times.

3421
01:23:33,900 --> 01:23:34,620
Every two weeks.

3422
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:36,420
And it was very easy.

3423
01:23:36,480 --> 01:23:37,720
Like he comes back and it's like,

3424
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:38,340
it's me bitches.

3425
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:38,920
And,

3426
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:39,340
and you,

3427
01:23:39,340 --> 01:23:40,660
you either trust that statement,

3428
01:23:40,660 --> 01:23:43,820
or like someone who knows him in person will tell,

3429
01:23:43,820 --> 01:23:44,020
no,

3430
01:23:44,020 --> 01:23:45,580
it's actually him.

3431
01:23:46,300 --> 01:23:46,860
That's it.

3432
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:47,580
I called him.

3433
01:23:47,660 --> 01:23:48,260
And that's good.

3434
01:23:48,480 --> 01:23:48,880
Okay.

3435
01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:49,380
And boom.

3436
01:23:49,660 --> 01:23:50,020
And,

3437
01:23:50,020 --> 01:23:50,960
and it's,

3438
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:52,460
it's actually not that big of a deal.

3439
01:23:52,480 --> 01:23:53,940
It's not that big of an issue.

3440
01:23:53,940 --> 01:23:54,340
It,

3441
01:23:54,500 --> 01:23:55,060
and that's,

3442
01:23:55,140 --> 01:23:56,960
but that's purely speaking from an individual perspective.

3443
01:23:56,960 --> 01:23:57,640
I realized like if,

3444
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:00,060
if Nike or like whatever big company,

3445
01:24:00,060 --> 01:24:00,700
uh,

3446
01:24:00,700 --> 01:24:01,200
gets their,

3447
01:24:01,280 --> 01:24:02,800
their key hacked or whatever,

3448
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:03,620
then it's a,

3449
01:24:03,620 --> 01:24:04,960
it's a different situation.

3450
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:06,760
But I think we can also get there,

3451
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:07,880
like with all the stuff that's happening,

3452
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:09,060
happening around frost.

3453
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:09,560
Yeah.

3454
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:10,400
It's just a quorum.

3455
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:14,260
And all that complexity doesn't need to live on the protocol.

3456
01:24:14,260 --> 01:24:14,480
Exactly.

3457
01:24:14,480 --> 01:24:15,500
How do we do signatures?

3458
01:24:15,500 --> 01:24:16,120
Now do we,

3459
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:17,700
they can just take that,

3460
01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:19,480
all that complexity and put it in.

3461
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:22,680
I know a company that is within,

3462
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:23,200
within us,

3463
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:23,640
because I,

3464
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:24,840
they told me when I was working on,

3465
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:25,060
on,

3466
01:24:25,060 --> 01:24:25,360
on NSEC,

3467
01:24:25,420 --> 01:24:26,100
on NSEC bunker,

3468
01:24:26,260 --> 01:24:28,720
that they had built something like that for themselves,

3469
01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:33,820
where they had social media managers that could sign as the main,

3470
01:24:33,820 --> 01:24:34,260
like the,

3471
01:24:34,260 --> 01:24:34,680
the key,

3472
01:24:34,820 --> 01:24:37,000
but they did not have access to the key.

3473
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:38,060
And they just built it in house.

3474
01:24:38,060 --> 01:24:38,440
Yeah.

3475
01:24:38,500 --> 01:24:39,700
And it's not that fucking complex.

3476
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:40,240
Yeah.

3477
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:40,340
Yeah.

3478
01:24:40,340 --> 01:24:40,520
Yeah.

3479
01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:40,700
Yeah.

3480
01:24:40,700 --> 01:24:40,840
No,

3481
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:41,000
no,

3482
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:41,220
no.

3483
01:24:41,220 --> 01:24:41,280
Well,

3484
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:41,700
I mean,

3485
01:24:41,700 --> 01:24:43,820
and Coinbase and like all these companies,

3486
01:24:43,820 --> 01:24:45,860
they also build their own tool,

3487
01:24:45,860 --> 01:24:50,600
their own solutions on how do we keep these keys so that no one guy can take it.

3488
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:50,760
Right?

3489
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:50,920
Yeah.

3490
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:51,020
Yeah.

3491
01:24:51,020 --> 01:24:51,240
Sure.

3492
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:51,580
Sure.

3493
01:24:51,700 --> 01:24:51,840
No,

3494
01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:52,180
that's what,

3495
01:24:52,220 --> 01:24:53,140
that's what you have to do in,

3496
01:24:53,140 --> 01:24:53,720
in those settings.

3497
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:54,460
But again,

3498
01:24:54,460 --> 01:24:55,080
I think maybe,

3499
01:24:55,080 --> 01:24:57,100
maybe we'll touch on that a little bit more the next time,

3500
01:24:57,100 --> 01:24:58,300
because I'm,

3501
01:24:58,300 --> 01:24:59,200
I'm literally out of steam.

3502
01:24:59,300 --> 01:24:59,440
I'm,

3503
01:24:59,440 --> 01:25:00,300
I'm running on fumes,

3504
01:25:00,300 --> 01:25:05,040
but the one last thing that I love is that this one person that was saying,

3505
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:05,240
Oh,

3506
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:05,440
no,

3507
01:25:05,480 --> 01:25:07,000
there is not even trying to solve these,

3508
01:25:07,100 --> 01:25:07,440
these,

3509
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:08,300
these things.

3510
01:25:08,660 --> 01:25:09,020
Uh,

3511
01:25:09,020 --> 01:25:09,220
they,

3512
01:25:09,220 --> 01:25:10,620
they are just ignoring the problem.

3513
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:13,340
It came up in the discussion,

3514
01:25:13,340 --> 01:25:13,640
the,

3515
01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:16,300
the idea of social recovery and I'm out of band and,

3516
01:25:16,300 --> 01:25:16,580
you know,

3517
01:25:16,580 --> 01:25:17,020
like saying,

3518
01:25:17,060 --> 01:25:17,160
Oh,

3519
01:25:17,160 --> 01:25:18,100
this is my new end pub.

3520
01:25:18,100 --> 01:25:19,980
And five of my friends say,

3521
01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:20,240
Oh yeah,

3522
01:25:20,300 --> 01:25:21,900
this is the Gigi's new end pub.

3523
01:25:22,440 --> 01:25:22,920
Um,

3524
01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:25,400
laughing at that idea saying,

3525
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:27,020
that is fucking ridiculous.

3526
01:25:27,260 --> 01:25:28,240
Why would you do it?

3527
01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:29,460
Like that's so stupid,

3528
01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:31,560
but that's how it works and how it always works.

3529
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,120
Like if your identity actually got stolen or if you,

3530
01:25:34,220 --> 01:25:36,140
if you lose all your passports or whatever,

3531
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:36,440
that's,

3532
01:25:36,440 --> 01:25:37,000
that's how it works.

3533
01:25:37,100 --> 01:25:37,760
That's how it works.

3534
01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:38,780
You go through the,

3535
01:25:38,820 --> 01:25:39,860
to the family,

3536
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:40,460
to the friends,

3537
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:40,800
whatever.

3538
01:25:40,940 --> 01:25:41,460
And they will tell you,

3539
01:25:41,480 --> 01:25:41,580
no,

3540
01:25:41,620 --> 01:25:42,580
that's actually the person.

3541
01:25:42,660 --> 01:25:42,800
Yeah.

3542
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:43,040
And so on.

3543
01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:44,600
And I think a lot of people,

3544
01:25:44,700 --> 01:25:45,340
and maybe we,

3545
01:25:45,340 --> 01:25:47,480
we touch on this the next time or at some other point,

3546
01:25:47,480 --> 01:25:50,800
a lot of people are confused about the difference.

3547
01:25:50,900 --> 01:25:53,040
There is a difference between identity and authentication.

3548
01:25:53,420 --> 01:25:54,440
They're not the same thing.

3549
01:25:54,580 --> 01:25:54,760
Oh,

3550
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:56,520
they're absolutely not the same thing.

3551
01:25:56,740 --> 01:25:57,220
And identity,

3552
01:25:57,360 --> 01:25:58,620
you are not in charge of your identity.

3553
01:25:58,620 --> 01:25:59,100
Really?

3554
01:25:59,240 --> 01:25:59,680
That's like what,

3555
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:02,400
what all the postmodernist people are confused about as well.

3556
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:03,140
It's like,

3557
01:26:03,260 --> 01:26:03,700
um,

3558
01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:07,120
people will tell you who you are or what you are in some sense.

3559
01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:07,460
Like in,

3560
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:11,460
the people are social creatures and your identity derives from the

3561
01:26:11,460 --> 01:26:12,620
environment you're embedded in.

3562
01:26:12,620 --> 01:26:13,140
And you,

3563
01:26:13,220 --> 01:26:14,440
you cannot choose who you're again,

3564
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:16,580
like I made this joke already the last time,

3565
01:26:16,580 --> 01:26:17,840
but the high school makes us very clear.

3566
01:26:17,900 --> 01:26:19,140
You're not even in charge of your name.

3567
01:26:19,460 --> 01:26:20,880
Like if you're dickface,

3568
01:26:20,940 --> 01:26:22,300
then you're dickface for all of school,

3569
01:26:22,620 --> 01:26:22,860
you know,

3570
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:23,380
like whatever.

3571
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:23,840
It's like,

3572
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:24,960
it's like,

3573
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:25,100
you,

3574
01:26:25,140 --> 01:26:26,820
you can't tell other people what to call you,

3575
01:26:26,860 --> 01:26:27,260
for example,

3576
01:26:27,260 --> 01:26:27,640
like you,

3577
01:26:27,740 --> 01:26:30,400
you'll get the name that whatever fits you,

3578
01:26:30,540 --> 01:26:31,980
what other people think fits you.

3579
01:26:32,100 --> 01:26:32,300
And so on.

3580
01:26:32,720 --> 01:26:32,940
And,

3581
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:33,220
and,

3582
01:26:33,220 --> 01:26:33,560
and so,

3583
01:26:33,620 --> 01:26:34,260
so that's very,

3584
01:26:34,340 --> 01:26:35,380
very different from authentication,

3585
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:36,520
which,

3586
01:26:36,580 --> 01:26:36,780
which,

3587
01:26:36,940 --> 01:26:37,520
and,

3588
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:37,800
and,

3589
01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:38,280
and I,

3590
01:26:38,280 --> 01:26:39,300
I think like even in,

3591
01:26:39,300 --> 01:26:40,360
in an Oscar world and lots of,

3592
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:41,000
of devs,

3593
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:43,620
I feel like are quite confused about them,

3594
01:26:43,620 --> 01:26:43,960
where,

3595
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:44,300
where they,

3596
01:26:44,300 --> 01:26:44,720
they kind of,

3597
01:26:45,140 --> 01:26:45,320
they,

3598
01:26:46,580 --> 01:26:49,880
mix these concepts together in some weird way,

3599
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:52,480
or try to come up with solutions for,

3600
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:53,100
for,

3601
01:26:53,180 --> 01:26:53,840
for the whole thing,

3602
01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:55,160
but they only have a solution for identity,

3603
01:26:55,160 --> 01:26:57,820
or they only have a solution for authentication and so on and so forth.

3604
01:26:58,020 --> 01:27:01,300
So maybe that's worth exploring a little bit more because it's,

3605
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:01,640
again,

3606
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:05,480
I think it's a problem of where missing a lot of the,

3607
01:27:05,960 --> 01:27:07,840
I feel like we don't have great terminology.

3608
01:27:08,040 --> 01:27:08,280
Oh,

3609
01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:08,800
a hundred percent.

3610
01:27:09,020 --> 01:27:09,420
Absolutely.

3611
01:27:09,700 --> 01:27:09,820
And,

3612
01:27:09,820 --> 01:27:11,040
and it's also like,

3613
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:11,260
you know,

3614
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:14,020
pseudonymity and anonymity and all those kinds of things.

3615
01:27:14,020 --> 01:27:14,560
It's like,

3616
01:27:14,740 --> 01:27:14,880
we,

3617
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:18,540
some people know that there is a difference and all those kinds of stuff.

3618
01:27:18,900 --> 01:27:25,820
And I think Nostar gives us a unique kind of possibility to explore all this some more and also normalize it in the sense,

3619
01:27:25,900 --> 01:27:27,980
like we mentioned it briefly last time,

3620
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:28,480
I think as well.

3621
01:27:28,700 --> 01:27:28,880
It's like,

3622
01:27:29,060 --> 01:27:29,460
you can,

3623
01:27:30,340 --> 01:27:30,720
again,

3624
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:31,620
like NSACs are free.

3625
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:32,180
You can,

3626
01:27:32,260 --> 01:27:32,580
you can,

3627
01:27:32,640 --> 01:27:34,580
you can reply as like a new person,

3628
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:35,800
just for this one reply.

3629
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:38,080
You can try out a client for a week.

3630
01:27:38,220 --> 01:27:38,620
Just,

3631
01:27:38,700 --> 01:27:38,920
just,

3632
01:27:39,160 --> 01:27:39,740
just because,

3633
01:27:40,060 --> 01:27:45,140
but just because you don't want to potentially compromise your main account or do something stupid with your main and those kinds of things.

3634
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:45,720
And,

3635
01:27:45,780 --> 01:27:46,020
and,

3636
01:27:46,140 --> 01:27:48,060
and I think it's very much,

3637
01:27:48,180 --> 01:27:52,480
very much worth exploring all this because it's,

3638
01:27:52,480 --> 01:27:55,900
it's just a fact of the new system.

3639
01:27:55,900 --> 01:28:03,840
And it's very different from what Facebook or Google or Apple tries you to believe that you have one identity.

3640
01:28:03,840 --> 01:28:04,780
You are one thing.

3641
01:28:04,860 --> 01:28:05,540
That's only you.

3642
01:28:05,700 --> 01:28:05,780
And,

3643
01:28:05,780 --> 01:28:06,040
and it,

3644
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:07,580
and it's all encompassing,

3645
01:28:07,580 --> 01:28:08,400
you know?

3646
01:28:08,460 --> 01:28:08,800
And I,

3647
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:13,180
I think that's extremely misguided from the get go because identity is inherently prismatic.

3648
01:28:13,180 --> 01:28:14,040
It's like you,

3649
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:15,400
you are not one thing.

3650
01:28:16,060 --> 01:28:16,540
And,

3651
01:28:16,540 --> 01:28:17,080
and again,

3652
01:28:17,140 --> 01:28:17,440
like I,

3653
01:28:17,480 --> 01:28:19,060
I always use the same examples,

3654
01:28:19,060 --> 01:28:19,500
but if you,

3655
01:28:19,500 --> 01:28:20,040
if you go to,

3656
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:20,940
to Vegas for,

3657
01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:22,440
to Las Vegas for the weekend,

3658
01:28:22,440 --> 01:28:23,920
you might be Steve or whatever,

3659
01:28:24,100 --> 01:28:24,320
you know?

3660
01:28:24,380 --> 01:28:24,620
It's like,

3661
01:28:25,060 --> 01:28:27,340
that's always how identity worked,

3662
01:28:27,440 --> 01:28:27,700
you know?

3663
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:28,440
And again,

3664
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:28,840
like we,

3665
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:29,780
we have to,

3666
01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:36,820
I think we have the opportunity now to model cyberspace accordingly,

3667
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:41,940
model cyberspace on reality and not make something up.

3668
01:28:43,180 --> 01:28:47,180
like Facebook or whatever and force everyone into the made up world.

3669
01:28:47,540 --> 01:28:48,640
And I think that's,

3670
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:52,140
that's kind of why I'm so motivated to,

3671
01:28:52,260 --> 01:28:52,480
to,

3672
01:28:52,540 --> 01:28:54,960
to talk about these things because I think we can actually do it.

3673
01:28:55,140 --> 01:28:55,260
Yeah.

3674
01:28:55,260 --> 01:28:55,460
Yeah.

3675
01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:55,760
Yeah,

3676
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:56,160
absolutely.

3677
01:28:56,280 --> 01:28:57,540
But the devs also have to,

3678
01:28:57,620 --> 01:28:58,640
the people building the stuff,

3679
01:28:58,760 --> 01:28:59,320
they,

3680
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:04,160
they need to understand this properly and understand the problem space properly.

3681
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:04,560
And to,

3682
01:29:04,620 --> 01:29:04,860
to,

3683
01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:05,600
to follow up to,

3684
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:06,560
to what you said about,

3685
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:07,080
oh,

3686
01:29:07,080 --> 01:29:08,280
we're not even trying to solve this problem.

3687
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:12,240
It's fine to not try and solve an impossible problem.

3688
01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:13,980
It's the only,

3689
01:29:14,200 --> 01:29:15,440
the only way to go.

3690
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:15,940
Yeah.

3691
01:29:16,180 --> 01:29:18,800
You will expend all your energy and time.

3692
01:29:18,940 --> 01:29:19,220
It's like,

3693
01:29:19,500 --> 01:29:19,660
don't,

3694
01:29:19,740 --> 01:29:20,380
and it will,

3695
01:29:20,540 --> 01:29:21,300
you will not make a thing.

3696
01:29:21,380 --> 01:29:21,700
Don't,

3697
01:29:21,700 --> 01:29:22,120
don't,

3698
01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:24,880
don't waste your time trying to build a perpetual motion machine,

3699
01:29:24,980 --> 01:29:25,420
for example.

3700
01:29:25,580 --> 01:29:25,900
It's like,

3701
01:29:25,940 --> 01:29:26,220
you know,

3702
01:29:26,580 --> 01:29:27,460
have you heard that Vitalik?

3703
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:31,700
That might be a good place to end.

3704
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:32,280
I'm,

3705
01:29:32,280 --> 01:29:33,180
I'm completely done.

3706
01:29:33,300 --> 01:29:33,560
Yeah.

3707
01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:34,060
Me too.

3708
01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:34,900
Any last words?

3709
01:29:35,220 --> 01:29:35,440
No,

3710
01:29:35,520 --> 01:29:36,060
I think we're good.

3711
01:29:36,060 --> 01:29:37,260
Oh yeah.

3712
01:29:37,380 --> 01:29:37,840
I tweeted,

3713
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:39,200
I tweeted a few days ago.

3714
01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:40,520
You're,

3715
01:29:40,700 --> 01:29:41,740
you are not your NPUB.

3716
01:29:42,580 --> 01:29:45,260
And I was going for this discussion.

3717
01:29:45,600 --> 01:29:45,920
You aren't.

3718
01:29:46,180 --> 01:29:46,560
You aren't.

3719
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:48,100
You absolutely aren't.

3720
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:49,600
Your NPUB is a pointer.

3721
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:50,180
That's it.

3722
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:51,200
Maybe.

3723
01:29:51,700 --> 01:29:52,140
But you know,

3724
01:29:52,260 --> 01:29:53,240
some people ask me,

3725
01:29:53,620 --> 01:29:54,520
am I my NSEC?

3726
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:56,220
Thinking that that's,

3727
01:29:56,300 --> 01:29:57,180
that's what I was going for.

3728
01:29:57,240 --> 01:29:58,400
And you're not your NSEC either.

3729
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:00,420
I have many NSECs.

3730
01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:01,280
I mean,

3731
01:30:01,380 --> 01:30:02,320
people would only know.

3732
01:30:02,420 --> 01:30:03,880
Nostra is literally like 20 people.

3733
01:30:06,480 --> 01:30:07,040
All right,

3734
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:07,360
Pablo.

3735
01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:07,900
All right.

3736
01:30:07,940 --> 01:30:09,460
Let's continue this next week.