1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,560
 All right, because if I switch them on at the same time, then I don't have to.

2
00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:09,440
 But I always do this as well, like one snap.

3
00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:15,760
 Because if something fucks up and I have to dig in and manually edit the stuff, then

4
00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,480
 the finger snap helps to synchronize things.

5
00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,120
 All right, that looks good.

6
00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,120
 Oh, it doesn't matter.

7
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,980
 All right, all that looks good.

8
00:00:31,980 --> 00:00:35,080
 So yeah, we're live.

9
00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:40,440
 And if everything works, then, you know, lots of stuff is going to happen once I hit save.

10
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:51,060
 And then it's, you know, the nice thing about the podcasting 2.0 spec is that you can just...

11
00:00:51,060 --> 00:00:56,500
 Right now, the models are advanced enough that you can just go like, okay, this is the XML

12
00:00:56,500 --> 00:00:58,220
 script that should be produced.

13
00:00:58,220 --> 00:01:01,360
 Build me a script that does everything automatically, do the value splits and everything.

14
00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,080
 And it just, it kind of works.

15
00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:04,080
 Wow.

16
00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:05,080
 So...

17
00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,280
 Yeah, that's a big thing I want to...

18
00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:15,160
 Talking to Spence, because one of our nights we recorded at a venue who is...

19
00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:16,080
 They're on Noster.

20
00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:17,080
 Yeah.

21
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:18,460
 It's Maggie Mays.

22
00:01:18,460 --> 00:01:23,320
 But one of Spencer's ideas was have every venue has an N-Pub.

23
00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:33,180
 Because when you start the live stream, you start the event from the N-Pub, signs the initial

24
00:01:33,180 --> 00:01:34,180
 event.

25
00:01:34,180 --> 00:01:35,180
 Okay, okay.

26
00:01:35,180 --> 00:01:36,900
 The venue starts the live stream.

27
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 Not the artist.

28
00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:38,900
 Yeah, yeah.

29
00:01:38,900 --> 00:01:40,040
 He wants to have the venue start the...

30
00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:46,180
 Have their own N-Pub, have their own kind of environment where they can showcase their different

31
00:01:46,180 --> 00:01:46,900
 artists and stuff like that.

32
00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:51,700
 Yeah, that's an interesting problem because it's not obvious always what the right mapping

33
00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:57,800
 is from the real world onto cryptographic identities, onto N-Pub's, because if you have a venue, if

34
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,140
 you have a night where like 10 different artists play or something, it doesn't make sense to

35
00:02:02,140 --> 00:02:05,140
 start a live stream as the artist or something like that.

36
00:02:05,140 --> 00:02:06,140
 Yeah.

37
00:02:06,140 --> 00:02:08,380
 Yeah, no, it's cool that all this stuff is happening.

38
00:02:08,380 --> 00:02:15,300
 Tell me more about like your relationship to the decentralized music people and, you know,

39
00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:21,080
 Spencer and all the folks that are doing awesome stuff now with saps and boosts and

40
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,880
 Noster and live streams and podcasting 2.0 and so on.

41
00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:26,120
 So, um, yeah.

42
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:32,020
 So before I left Austin, I had tried to orange pill a lot of the musicians, um, that things

43
00:02:32,020 --> 00:02:39,180
 were, had just kind of started happening with, uh, with value for value and, uh, but every

44
00:02:39,180 --> 00:02:44,620
 musician that I talked to would be like, you can't make money selling music.

45
00:02:44,620 --> 00:02:46,100
 You can only make money selling merch.

46
00:02:46,100 --> 00:02:47,100
 Yeah.

47
00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:49,580
 And they had been so black or selling concert tickets, right?

48
00:02:49,580 --> 00:02:50,580
 Yeah.

49
00:02:50,580 --> 00:02:53,380
 But they're not as, they're not, they're not big enough.

50
00:02:53,380 --> 00:02:55,380
 Also in Austin, it's pay to play.

51
00:02:55,380 --> 00:02:56,380
 Yeah.

52
00:02:56,380 --> 00:02:58,380
 Let's, let's probably turn around and walk the other way because otherwise we'll just

53
00:02:58,380 --> 00:03:00,460
 be huffing and puffing because it goes up and down.

54
00:03:00,460 --> 00:03:01,460
 Okay.

55
00:03:01,460 --> 00:03:06,380
 Um, they, Austin is a pay to play, uh, environment.

56
00:03:06,380 --> 00:03:16,260
 So you have to basically pay the club money for them to put you on the schedule and then you

57
00:03:16,260 --> 00:03:19,180
 try and sell enough tickets to cover that.

58
00:03:19,180 --> 00:03:23,180
 And then sometimes they'll do drink splits and things.

59
00:03:23,180 --> 00:03:28,980
 Um, the, um, the, the musicians were very, very disillusioned with the idea that they could

60
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 ever make money playing music.

61
00:03:30,980 --> 00:03:31,980
 Interesting.

62
00:03:31,980 --> 00:03:32,980
 Like pop the music itself.

63
00:03:32,980 --> 00:03:37,980
 And, and did this change with the first kind of live concert, uh, sapping experiments and

64
00:03:37,980 --> 00:03:38,980
 so on?

65
00:03:38,980 --> 00:03:39,980
 No, not at all.

66
00:03:39,980 --> 00:03:40,780
 No, not at all.

67
00:03:40,780 --> 00:03:46,780
 And, uh, Adam Curry and, uh, open mic, they did a, they did a big event, um, a couple of

68
00:03:46,780 --> 00:03:47,780
 years ago.

69
00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:51,580
 Um, but like no, no traction whatsoever.

70
00:03:51,580 --> 00:03:56,980
 So I talked to like all the people from when I was growing up, all, all my friends have

71
00:03:56,980 --> 00:03:58,380
 punk rock labels.

72
00:03:58,380 --> 00:04:04,580
 They own all their own music and I was just like, just, just do it, just publish it.

73
00:04:04,580 --> 00:04:05,980
 Like, let's do this.

74
00:04:05,980 --> 00:04:08,980
 And I, I haven't been able to get any traction whatsoever.

75
00:04:08,980 --> 00:04:14,680
 And with your punk rock friends, they, they managed to monetize that because most of the

76
00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:15,780
 money flows to the labels.

77
00:04:15,780 --> 00:04:16,780
 Yeah.

78
00:04:16,780 --> 00:04:17,780
 Is that how it works?

79
00:04:17,780 --> 00:04:21,780
 And is that still true today in the days of Spotify streaming and all this kind of stuff?

80
00:04:21,780 --> 00:04:24,780
 Uh, no, it's, that's all, that's all gone off the window.

81
00:04:24,780 --> 00:04:25,780
 Okay.

82
00:04:25,780 --> 00:04:26,780
 Yeah.

83
00:04:26,780 --> 00:04:31,780
 So what would your advice be now to, or what is your advice now to up and coming musicians

84
00:04:31,780 --> 00:04:32,780
 to monetize?

85
00:04:32,780 --> 00:04:37,780
 Um, I, I would say that that value for value is definitely the way.

86
00:04:37,780 --> 00:04:41,780
 I think that they, they should be able to publish all their stuff.

87
00:04:41,780 --> 00:04:46,780
 Now that we've got splits, the label has an incentive, the musicians have an incentive.

88
00:04:46,780 --> 00:04:48,780
 Do you know Joe Martin by any chance?

89
00:04:48,780 --> 00:04:49,780
 Yeah.

90
00:04:49,780 --> 00:04:50,780
 Yeah.

91
00:04:50,780 --> 00:04:51,780
 Yeah.

92
00:04:51,780 --> 00:04:52,780
 I've met him.

93
00:04:52,780 --> 00:04:54,780
 Um, because he really leaned into that.

94
00:04:54,780 --> 00:04:55,780
 Yeah.

95
00:04:55,780 --> 00:04:56,780
 And it, it seems to really work for him.

96
00:04:56,780 --> 00:04:57,780
 Yeah.

97
00:04:57,780 --> 00:05:02,780
 And I, I, I was cheering him on massively once I, I saw that he's serious about it.

98
00:05:02,780 --> 00:05:03,780
 Yeah.

99
00:05:03,780 --> 00:05:04,780
 Absolutely.

100
00:05:04,780 --> 00:05:05,780
 Absolutely.

101
00:05:05,780 --> 00:05:06,780
 And so it seems to work for some people.

102
00:05:06,780 --> 00:05:07,780
 It seems to work.

103
00:05:07,780 --> 00:05:09,780
 If you embrace it fully, it kind of seems to work.

104
00:05:09,780 --> 00:05:10,780
 Yeah.

105
00:05:10,780 --> 00:05:14,780
 Um, but obviously, you know, like you, you're not gonna compete with going viral on Spotify

106
00:05:14,780 --> 00:05:15,780
 or something like that.

107
00:05:15,780 --> 00:05:16,780
 Yeah.

108
00:05:16,780 --> 00:05:21,780
 But I know too little about the music world to, to be useful.

109
00:05:21,780 --> 00:05:24,780
 I know just enough to not be very useful too.

110
00:05:24,780 --> 00:05:29,780
 But, but I also like, I'm, I'm very connected with open mic and like, we really, really want

111
00:05:29,780 --> 00:05:30,780
 to get this going.

112
00:05:30,780 --> 00:05:33,780
 And I think so open mics got the venue side.

113
00:05:33,780 --> 00:05:38,780
 Um, and then like, there's the value for value musicians.

114
00:05:38,780 --> 00:05:44,780
 Um, and then like the stuff we were talking about with Spencer, we really want to have

115
00:05:44,780 --> 00:05:49,780
 like 30 venues across the country, across the U S that are set up to do this.

116
00:05:49,780 --> 00:05:55,780
 And then we can, we could even do like, you go to your local, like I go to Maggie Mays

117
00:05:55,780 --> 00:06:01,780
 and Austin, we see two, two bands on the screen from other locations.

118
00:06:01,780 --> 00:06:05,780
 And then our band gets up and then they get to see that band at their location.

119
00:06:05,780 --> 00:06:09,780
 And we can coordinate these like value for value concerts.

120
00:06:09,780 --> 00:06:10,780
 Yeah.

121
00:06:10,780 --> 00:06:11,780
 Yeah.

122
00:06:11,780 --> 00:06:19,780
 I think part of the, part of the issue is that, um, people are not really willing to spend money

123
00:06:19,780 --> 00:06:20,780
 on this stuff.

124
00:06:20,780 --> 00:06:23,780
 Like very few people, it's the same dynamic always.

125
00:06:23,780 --> 00:06:24,780
 Yeah.

126
00:06:24,780 --> 00:06:25,780
 How many people give to a good cause?

127
00:06:25,780 --> 00:06:26,780
 How many people are donating?

128
00:06:26,780 --> 00:06:28,780
 How many people are sapping?

129
00:06:28,780 --> 00:06:31,780
 How many people are boosting podcasts and so on?

130
00:06:31,780 --> 00:06:36,780
 It's like somewhere around, like if you want to be generous, it's like 4%.

131
00:06:36,780 --> 00:06:37,780
 Right.

132
00:06:37,780 --> 00:06:40,780
 Listen, it's somewhere in between zero and 4%.

133
00:06:40,780 --> 00:06:44,780
 Well, I mean, that's where we got the, we have to do the, you know, shaming.

134
00:06:44,780 --> 00:06:45,780
 Yeah.

135
00:06:45,780 --> 00:06:46,780
 Yeah.

136
00:06:46,780 --> 00:06:47,780
 Yeah.

137
00:06:47,780 --> 00:06:48,780
 And I think that's, that's definitely something.

138
00:06:48,780 --> 00:06:58,780
 I talked about this in the past and I still, I still have a hard time verbalizing what I

139
00:06:58,780 --> 00:07:03,780
 kind of have in mind in the sense of there's lots of free to free to play games.

140
00:07:03,780 --> 00:07:04,780
 Yeah.

141
00:07:04,780 --> 00:07:08,780
 Where if you spend money on the game, it's almost like a donation to the game because

142
00:07:08,780 --> 00:07:11,780
 it doesn't give you any benefit from a gameplay perspective whatsoever.

143
00:07:11,780 --> 00:07:13,780
 But your avatar might glow.

144
00:07:13,780 --> 00:07:14,780
 Yeah.

145
00:07:14,780 --> 00:07:16,780
 You know, it's just like, it's just social signaling.

146
00:07:16,780 --> 00:07:18,780
 It's just like, look how much money I have.

147
00:07:18,780 --> 00:07:21,780
 And I will show off my skin or I will show off whatever, you know?

148
00:07:21,780 --> 00:07:22,780
 Yeah.

149
00:07:22,780 --> 00:07:23,780
 Yeah.

150
00:07:23,780 --> 00:07:24,780
 Those kinds of things.

151
00:07:24,780 --> 00:07:28,780
 And they make like millions and millions of dollars with this stuff.

152
00:07:28,780 --> 00:07:29,780
 Yeah.

153
00:07:29,780 --> 00:07:34,780
 And we still don't do anything like that on the Noster and podcasting 2.0 side.

154
00:07:34,780 --> 00:07:35,780
 I mean, that's not fair.

155
00:07:35,780 --> 00:07:39,780
 Adam Curry knows this and he's really good at, that's why he always goes on about, you

156
00:07:39,780 --> 00:07:42,780
 have to include the people that actually give in the loop.

157
00:07:42,780 --> 00:07:43,780
 Yeah.

158
00:07:43,780 --> 00:07:45,780
 That's why his listeners aren't the listeners, they're producers.

159
00:07:45,780 --> 00:07:46,780
 Yeah.

160
00:07:46,780 --> 00:07:47,780
 And he shouts everyone out.

161
00:07:47,780 --> 00:07:49,780
 Like that's incredibly important.

162
00:07:49,780 --> 00:07:53,780
 And I think people that really lean into Patreon and so on, they know that as well because

163
00:07:53,780 --> 00:07:55,780
 they will list all their Patreons and so on.

164
00:07:55,780 --> 00:07:56,780
 Yeah.

165
00:07:56,780 --> 00:07:59,780
 And it's a small thing because you don't have a skin that anyone thinks and so on.

166
00:07:59,780 --> 00:08:04,780
 And if you support a book and you are actually printed in the book, if you support a movie

167
00:08:04,780 --> 00:08:05,780
 and you are actually in the credits.

168
00:08:05,780 --> 00:08:06,780
 Yeah.

169
00:08:06,780 --> 00:08:13,780
 Like that's a bigger thing that people, yeah, that one would guess, I would say.

170
00:08:13,780 --> 00:08:16,780
 So there's still lots of things we can do, especially on the Noster side.

171
00:08:16,780 --> 00:08:22,780
 I mean, we don't do a lot of social signaling on the Noster side, but we do have a social network.

172
00:08:22,780 --> 00:08:25,780
 It's kind of, you know, ironic that we don't lean into that more.

173
00:08:25,780 --> 00:08:26,780
 Yeah.

174
00:08:26,780 --> 00:08:28,780
 But yeah, I think that's right.

175
00:08:28,780 --> 00:08:33,780
 I think the, you know, social shaming and on the positive side social signaling.

176
00:08:33,780 --> 00:08:34,780
 Yeah.

177
00:08:34,780 --> 00:08:35,780
 Yeah.

178
00:08:35,780 --> 00:08:36,780
 Can definitely go a long way.

179
00:08:36,780 --> 00:08:38,780
 But tell me more about how you got into that world.

180
00:08:38,780 --> 00:08:44,780
 You told me that you come from the music world and then you switched to computer science

181
00:08:44,780 --> 00:08:49,780
 and turned yourself from a musician into a sysadmin.

182
00:08:49,780 --> 00:08:50,780
 Yeah.

183
00:08:50,780 --> 00:08:53,780
 And then you, so you always stayed close to music, I guess.

184
00:08:53,780 --> 00:08:54,780
 I did.

185
00:08:54,780 --> 00:08:55,780
 Yeah.

186
00:08:55,780 --> 00:08:59,780
 But tell me, tell me how you, how you kind of, what was your first contact with podcasting

187
00:08:59,780 --> 00:09:01,780
 2.0 and this kind of crowd?

188
00:09:01,780 --> 00:09:07,780
 Well, before that, I'm like with the, with the punk rock scene, everything was always DIY.

189
00:09:07,780 --> 00:09:10,780
 Like you made your own shirts, you made your own merch.

190
00:09:10,780 --> 00:09:11,780
 Yeah.

191
00:09:11,780 --> 00:09:12,780
 You did your own shows.

192
00:09:12,780 --> 00:09:13,780
 You organized everything.

193
00:09:13,780 --> 00:09:14,780
 You bought a keg of beer.

194
00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:18,780
 You charged a dollar for a beer from the keg.

195
00:09:18,780 --> 00:09:22,780
 Like totally like, that's not, you know, that's not legal.

196
00:09:22,780 --> 00:09:32,780
 But they, they, they, they, the whole punk rock ethos was that you go around the system.

197
00:09:32,780 --> 00:09:33,780
 And you do it yourself.

198
00:09:33,780 --> 00:09:34,780
 So.

199
00:09:34,780 --> 00:09:37,780
 Not asking for permission is part of the punk rock.

200
00:09:37,780 --> 00:09:38,780
 Yeah.

201
00:09:38,780 --> 00:09:39,780
 Yeah.

202
00:09:39,780 --> 00:09:40,780
 Let's go down there.

203
00:09:40,780 --> 00:09:42,780
 That's a, that's the best path to walk.

204
00:09:42,780 --> 00:09:45,780
 And we'll be out of the noise hopefully soon into different noise.

205
00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:46,780
 Yeah.

206
00:09:46,780 --> 00:09:47,780
 So.

207
00:09:47,780 --> 00:09:52,780
 So that appealed to you, the, the not asking for permission.

208
00:09:52,780 --> 00:09:53,780
 Yeah.

209
00:09:53,780 --> 00:09:55,780
 It appealed to me at the time.

210
00:09:55,780 --> 00:10:02,780
 And then I would say, I got distracted by, by life.

211
00:10:02,780 --> 00:10:05,780
 By marrying and having kids.

212
00:10:05,780 --> 00:10:06,780
 Yeah.

213
00:10:06,780 --> 00:10:07,780
 Yeah.

214
00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:08,780
 That's what happens.

215
00:10:08,780 --> 00:10:09,780
 Yeah.

216
00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:14,780
 And so, so the re-entrance, I guess I, like I, I learned about Bitcoin.

217
00:10:14,780 --> 00:10:25,780
 I did a industrial mining in Texas, um, in 2017, 2018, set up pretty large scale Bitcoin mining

218
00:10:25,780 --> 00:10:28,780
 operations before, before that became like the new thing.

219
00:10:28,780 --> 00:10:29,780
 Yeah.

220
00:10:29,780 --> 00:10:30,780
 Okay.

221
00:10:30,780 --> 00:10:36,780
 Um, and at the time I was very into Monero mining as well.

222
00:10:36,780 --> 00:10:40,780
 Um, so I don't know how to, basically lots of CPUs.

223
00:10:40,780 --> 00:10:45,780
 Who did you work with, uh, on the, on the large scale industrial side, if I may ask if you can

224
00:10:45,780 --> 00:10:46,780
 talk about that.

225
00:10:46,780 --> 00:10:47,780
 Yeah.

226
00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:48,780
 Yeah.

227
00:10:48,780 --> 00:10:49,780
 It was a company called Amsis.

228
00:10:49,780 --> 00:10:53,780
 Um, so they were a managed service provider in the Houston area.

229
00:10:53,780 --> 00:10:57,780
 And they had a lot of, uh, friends who did various investments.

230
00:10:57,780 --> 00:11:03,780
 So we started with mining, uh, then we set up, uh, crypto hedge fund.

231
00:11:03,780 --> 00:11:08,780
 Um, but the, uh, Oh, I mean, basically we, we.

232
00:11:08,780 --> 00:11:09,780
 That sounds terrible.

233
00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:10,780
 That's two words.

234
00:11:10,780 --> 00:11:11,780
 Yeah.

235
00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:12,780
 Oh, I know.

236
00:11:12,780 --> 00:11:13,780
 I know.

237
00:11:13,780 --> 00:11:16,780
 It ended up being, we were all cash and shorting Bitcoin.

238
00:11:16,780 --> 00:11:18,780
 Um, so not, not very good.

239
00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:19,780
 It was a bad time.

240
00:11:19,780 --> 00:11:21,780
 The same with the miners.

241
00:11:21,780 --> 00:11:28,780
 Um, they had spent millions on S9s and within 18 months they were selling them for scrap metal.

242
00:11:28,780 --> 00:11:29,780
 Yeah.

243
00:11:29,780 --> 00:11:30,780
 That's how it goes.

244
00:11:30,780 --> 00:11:32,780
 Yeah.

245
00:11:32,780 --> 00:11:33,780
 So you moved on from that.

246
00:11:33,780 --> 00:11:35,780
 So I, yeah, I moved on from that.

247
00:11:35,780 --> 00:11:37,780
 Um, that's interesting.

248
00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:49,780
 I don't, I think my, my clearest memory is really getting involved with, uh, ungovernable misfits and the mesh to Dell.

249
00:11:49,780 --> 00:11:59,780
 Um, when I wanted to move, move out of Austin, I contacted a friend in Pennsylvania and just kind of asked him, what's, what's it like up there?

250
00:11:59,780 --> 00:12:14,780
 Um, so I would say it was just, uh, they were kind of, I had, I wasn't even really aware of no agenda at the time.

251
00:12:14,780 --> 00:12:21,780
 And, um, but that was a podcast that I listened to and you know, you, you boost and they read out the boosts.

252
00:12:21,780 --> 00:12:25,780
 Um, and, and you kind of, you feel like you're more involved in it.

253
00:12:25,780 --> 00:12:31,780
 Um, so I, Adam Carey manages to run his old, his whole operation on boosts.

254
00:12:31,780 --> 00:12:32,780
 Yeah.

255
00:12:32,780 --> 00:12:33,780
 So that tells you something.

256
00:12:33,780 --> 00:12:34,780
 I mean, he's very industrious.

257
00:12:34,780 --> 00:12:36,780
 He has like five podcasts or whatever.

258
00:12:36,780 --> 00:12:38,780
 And he's really good at it, obviously.

259
00:12:38,780 --> 00:12:39,780
 Yeah.

260
00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:40,780
 Being the grandfather and everything.

261
00:12:40,780 --> 00:12:43,780
 And being the guy behind podcasting 2.0.

262
00:12:43,780 --> 00:12:47,780
 Like he knows what he's doing, but, um, okay.

263
00:12:47,780 --> 00:12:54,780
 So you, that was your first contact then with, um, via no agenda was your first contact with,

264
00:12:54,780 --> 00:12:56,780
 then podcasting 2.0 people basically.

265
00:12:56,780 --> 00:12:57,780
 Yeah.

266
00:12:57,780 --> 00:13:04,780
 For official, I didn't know what podcasting 2.0 until like, I was already boosting podcasts from my friends.

267
00:13:04,780 --> 00:13:07,780
 And then I learned about Adam Curry and podcasting 2.0.

268
00:13:07,780 --> 00:13:13,780
 What did you use in terms of, uh, when you say you were already boosting, what did you use?

269
00:13:13,780 --> 00:13:16,780
 I, um, it must've been fountain.

270
00:13:16,780 --> 00:13:17,780
 All right.

271
00:13:17,780 --> 00:13:18,780
 Yeah.

272
00:13:18,780 --> 00:13:20,780
 I'm not sure when, when Oscar and Mary came out with that.

273
00:13:20,780 --> 00:13:22,780
 Um, yeah, I would have to look it up as well.

274
00:13:22,780 --> 00:13:23,780
 A couple of years ago, probably.

275
00:13:23,780 --> 00:13:24,780
 Yeah.

276
00:13:24,780 --> 00:13:25,780
 Um, 2018, 19 or so.

277
00:13:25,780 --> 00:13:26,780
 Something like that.

278
00:13:26,780 --> 00:13:27,780
 That sounds about right.

279
00:13:27,780 --> 00:13:44,780
 But, um, but, but, but, uh, on, from what we were talking about earlier, I, the, the fountain, uh, subscriptions, I think are really amazing.

280
00:13:44,780 --> 00:13:54,780
 And kind of like you said, like I subscribe to several podcasts and they always read out the, the supporters, the monthly supporters, um, free cities.

281
00:13:54,780 --> 00:13:56,780
 Um, he's, um, Avi Burr is great.

282
00:13:56,780 --> 00:13:57,780
 He's like one of my favorite people.

283
00:13:57,780 --> 00:13:58,780
 Yeah.

284
00:13:58,780 --> 00:13:59,780
 In the world.

285
00:13:59,780 --> 00:14:00,780
 Yeah.

286
00:14:00,780 --> 00:14:03,780
 Um, we, we, we've talked about a lot of this stuff.

287
00:14:03,780 --> 00:14:05,780
 I've been on his podcast before.

288
00:14:05,780 --> 00:14:06,780
 Yeah.

289
00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:12,780
 I think the, the subscription bit is just kind of automating, automating the, the boosting.

290
00:14:12,780 --> 00:14:16,780
 I think that's also, Substack got two things very right.

291
00:14:16,780 --> 00:14:19,780
 Like removing the friction in terms of giving back.

292
00:14:19,780 --> 00:14:26,780
 And on the creator side using email as a distribution channel, using protocol as a distribution channel.

293
00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:27,780
 Yeah.

294
00:14:27,780 --> 00:14:33,780
 I think ever since they kind of fucked up, but we went in the wrong direction, but that's the, I think that's, that there was the main appeal.

295
00:14:33,780 --> 00:14:43,780
 And I think that's something that's still the main appeal of everything we are trying to do is like you on the creator side, you can't be rug pulled.

296
00:14:43,780 --> 00:14:53,780
 And I think what we still have to get better at from the consumer side, so to speak, is removing the friction when it comes to, to giving back.

297
00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:54,780
 But subscriptions obviously do that.

298
00:14:54,780 --> 00:14:56,780
 It's just very hard to do them with Bitcoin.

299
00:14:56,780 --> 00:14:57,780
 Yeah, it is.

300
00:14:57,780 --> 00:14:58,780
 It is.

301
00:14:58,780 --> 00:14:59,780
 It is.

302
00:14:59,780 --> 00:15:01,780
 Out of, out of, out of principle.

303
00:15:01,780 --> 00:15:02,780
 All right.

304
00:15:02,780 --> 00:15:03,780
 Okay.

305
00:15:03,780 --> 00:15:04,780
 So that was your first touch point.

306
00:15:04,780 --> 00:15:07,780
 And, and, um, then obviously you got more involved.

307
00:15:07,780 --> 00:15:08,780
 Tell me more about that.

308
00:15:08,780 --> 00:15:11,780
 Everything I do is very, very layered.

309
00:15:11,780 --> 00:15:17,780
 And like, I, I try and keep a, uh, 50,000 foot view of what's going on.

310
00:15:17,780 --> 00:15:23,780
 So before I moved to Pennsylvania, I was already interested in circular economies.

311
00:15:23,780 --> 00:15:26,780
 Um, and so that was like six years ago.

312
00:15:26,780 --> 00:15:29,780
 Uh, so I, I invested in a.

313
00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:32,780
 By circular economies, you mean traditional circular economies?

314
00:15:32,780 --> 00:15:38,780
 Well, I mean, Bitcoin, I mean, yeah, inspired by Bitcoin beach and things like that.

315
00:15:38,780 --> 00:15:39,780
 Okay.

316
00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:40,780
 Okay.

317
00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:41,780
 Yeah.

318
00:15:41,780 --> 00:15:42,780
 Okay.

319
00:15:42,780 --> 00:15:48,780
 Um, and then also, um, with COVID and then we had this huge snowpocalypse in Austin.

320
00:15:48,780 --> 00:15:50,780
 I got very concerned with food security.

321
00:15:50,780 --> 00:15:55,780
 So that's one of the principal reasons I moved to Lancaster was to be near the Amish.

322
00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:59,780
 You know, if, if shit hits the fan, they're going to keep laying eggs.

323
00:15:59,780 --> 00:16:02,780
 They're going to keep making, you know, growing, growing lettuce.

324
00:16:02,780 --> 00:16:03,780
 Yeah.

325
00:16:03,780 --> 00:16:04,780
 Yeah.

326
00:16:04,780 --> 00:16:05,780
 Not nothing.

327
00:16:05,780 --> 00:16:06,780
 Yeah.

328
00:16:06,780 --> 00:16:07,780
 Yeah.

329
00:16:07,780 --> 00:16:08,780
 We have that in common.

330
00:16:08,780 --> 00:16:13,780
 You, you are, you are already like 15 steps ahead, but I told you, you know, one of my goals

331
00:16:13,780 --> 00:16:14,780
 is to orange pill the Amish.

332
00:16:14,780 --> 00:16:15,780
 Yeah.

333
00:16:15,780 --> 00:16:17,780
 And, and you're already on your way.

334
00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:18,780
 That was already actually talking.

335
00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:19,780
 Yeah.

336
00:16:19,780 --> 00:16:24,780
 That is my stated, like, like as, as crazy as it sounded, I'm like, I'm here to orange pill the Amish.

337
00:16:24,780 --> 00:16:26,780
 Oh, it's not crazy at all.

338
00:16:26,780 --> 00:16:27,780
 It's the right.

339
00:16:27,780 --> 00:16:28,780
 It's the right group of people.

340
00:16:28,780 --> 00:16:29,780
 Yeah.

341
00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:30,780
 Orange pill.

342
00:16:30,780 --> 00:16:34,780
 So the, the first year I would talk to all the vendors, talked about Bitcoin that didn't

343
00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:35,780
 go anywhere.

344
00:16:35,780 --> 00:16:41,780
 So the second year I was in Lancaster, I rented a farmer's market stall and I just, uh, set

345
00:16:41,780 --> 00:16:46,780
 up a tent, a table and put up lots of Bitcoin signs.

346
00:16:46,780 --> 00:16:52,780
 And literally all I was doing is talking to people about Bitcoin and people would come

347
00:16:52,780 --> 00:16:53,780
 up and like, what are you trying to sell?

348
00:16:53,780 --> 00:16:55,780
 And I was like, freedom.

349
00:16:55,780 --> 00:17:00,780
 So that was, that was interesting.

350
00:17:00,780 --> 00:17:02,780
 Uh, and I've got, uh, I'm on my GitHub.

351
00:17:02,780 --> 00:17:06,780
 I've got, uh, instructions on how to do it because it's, it's really fun.

352
00:17:06,780 --> 00:17:08,780
 It's not expensive at all.

353
00:17:08,780 --> 00:17:13,780
 It costs, you know, $20, $30 in almost any city to have a farmer's market stall.

354
00:17:13,780 --> 00:17:14,780
 Okay.

355
00:17:14,780 --> 00:17:19,780
 And then you just, so it was just promoting our, our meetup.

356
00:17:19,780 --> 00:17:28,780
 Um, we had a sound money or a hard money guy who would bring blocks of copper and, and blocks

357
00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:29,780
 of silver.

358
00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:32,780
 And so that was really, I mean, something people could pick up and touch.

359
00:17:32,780 --> 00:17:33,780
 Yeah.

360
00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:34,780
 You know, that was really good.

361
00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:36,780
 I guess that would be more appealing to the Amish probably, right?

362
00:17:36,780 --> 00:17:37,780
 Yeah.

363
00:17:37,780 --> 00:17:38,780
 Yeah.

364
00:17:38,780 --> 00:17:41,780
 Just physical old school hard, like gold silver.

365
00:17:41,780 --> 00:17:42,780
 Yeah.

366
00:17:42,780 --> 00:17:43,780
 Yeah.

367
00:17:43,780 --> 00:17:44,780
 Things you can actually touch and see.

368
00:17:44,780 --> 00:17:49,780
 Um, but you also mentioned they don't know, by your experience, they don't know too much

369
00:17:49,780 --> 00:17:51,780
 about money and hard money in the first place.

370
00:17:51,780 --> 00:17:53,780
 You mentioned they save in dollars mostly.

371
00:17:53,780 --> 00:17:54,780
 They do.

372
00:17:54,780 --> 00:17:55,780
 They save in dollars.

373
00:17:55,780 --> 00:18:01,780
 Uh, they, the, the, the most I've gotten through with them is talking about inflation

374
00:18:01,780 --> 00:18:04,780
 because they don't, they, they're, they're not economists.

375
00:18:04,780 --> 00:18:06,780
 So you, you, you making them aware of it.

376
00:18:06,780 --> 00:18:09,780
 Well, it's a good book to kind of get them more interested.

377
00:18:09,780 --> 00:18:10,780
 Yeah.

378
00:18:10,780 --> 00:18:11,780
 Yeah.

379
00:18:11,780 --> 00:18:12,780
 Like, okay, someone is stealing from me and I didn't know.

380
00:18:12,780 --> 00:18:13,780
 Yep.

381
00:18:13,780 --> 00:18:14,780
 Yeah.

382
00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:17,780
 Because I think they, I mean, they're the reason why I'm saying they're the right people

383
00:18:17,780 --> 00:18:20,780
 to orange pill is like, because they are, they are ahead of the curve when it comes

384
00:18:20,780 --> 00:18:23,780
 to, um, reducing the risks of being rug pulled.

385
00:18:23,780 --> 00:18:24,780
 Yeah.

386
00:18:24,780 --> 00:18:25,780
 And that's their whole objective.

387
00:18:25,780 --> 00:18:26,780
 Yeah.

388
00:18:26,780 --> 00:18:27,780
 Yeah.

389
00:18:27,780 --> 00:18:32,780
 They're, they're, they, they want to be able to be completely rug pull proof.

390
00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:37,780
 Um, so they've got, uh, solar, they'd use batteries.

391
00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:42,780
 Um, and then, so, so that was the second year that really when cashew came out was when

392
00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:45,780
 I realized that there, this could actually work.

393
00:18:45,780 --> 00:18:50,780
 Um, so my dream is to have printed cashew certificates that can be traded around at the

394
00:18:50,780 --> 00:18:55,780
 market and then at the end of the day, they can take their horse and buggy drive to the,

395
00:18:55,780 --> 00:18:58,780
 to the Bitcoin bank drive through, which they actually do drive.

396
00:18:58,780 --> 00:19:04,780
 They have, they, they park at target, you know, and hook up their horses and go buy their toilet paper.

397
00:19:04,780 --> 00:19:05,780
 Yeah.

398
00:19:05,780 --> 00:19:06,780
 Yeah.

399
00:19:06,780 --> 00:19:07,780
 That's amazing.

400
00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:13,780
 That there's a dedicated parking spots for the Amish for, uh, you know, horse and carriage.

401
00:19:13,780 --> 00:19:14,780
 Yeah.

402
00:19:14,780 --> 00:19:19,780
 So the, the bank can tear the seal on the, the cashew note, scan it, give them a receipt.

403
00:19:19,780 --> 00:19:25,780
 Um, and then also now Fetty Mint has a stability pools and things like that.

404
00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:28,780
 So I, I think it's, it's, it's feasible now.

405
00:19:28,780 --> 00:19:30,780
 I think there's a, there's a path forward.

406
00:19:30,780 --> 00:19:33,780
 Definitely more feasible than, I don't know, like eight years ago.

407
00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:34,780
 Yeah.

408
00:19:34,780 --> 00:19:35,780
 Yeah.

409
00:19:35,780 --> 00:19:36,780
 Yeah.

410
00:19:36,780 --> 00:19:37,780
 Yeah.

411
00:19:37,780 --> 00:19:40,780
 Lots of, lots of, lots of developments in that direction that to make kind of that.

412
00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:47,780
 That, I mean, to, to give the current banking infrastructure, it's, it's amazing that a credit card works in an airplane.

413
00:19:47,780 --> 00:19:48,780
 Yeah.

414
00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:50,780
 You know, like those kinds of things.

415
00:19:50,780 --> 00:19:57,780
 And if you really dig in and understand how it works, it's not a surprise that it works because there's certain trust assumptions and so on.

416
00:19:57,780 --> 00:19:58,780
 Yeah.

417
00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:01,780
 We need to provide the same user experience.

418
00:20:01,780 --> 00:20:06,780
 And that's of course where Cashew and federated eCash and those kinds of things come in.

419
00:20:06,780 --> 00:20:13,780
 It's interesting that you bring up eCash in that context because it kind of, you can, you can make stuff physical in some sense.

420
00:20:13,780 --> 00:20:18,780
 Like you said, you print out eCash on, on a piece of paper and it's actually the thing.

421
00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:19,780
 It's actually the money.

422
00:20:19,780 --> 00:20:20,780
 Yeah.

423
00:20:20,780 --> 00:20:21,780
 Yeah.

424
00:20:21,780 --> 00:20:31,780
 And that kind of like for, because to, to, to quote unquote, believe in Bitcoin that it actually has value and it's a thing.

425
00:20:31,780 --> 00:20:33,780
 And so you really need to deeply understand it.

426
00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:34,780
 Yeah.

427
00:20:34,780 --> 00:20:35,780
 I don't think there is another way.

428
00:20:35,780 --> 00:20:36,780
 Yeah.

429
00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:46,780
 And if you have something that you can touch and that, you know, you lose it and it's gone and you redeem it and you have the money in your account and all those kinds of things.

430
00:20:46,780 --> 00:20:50,780
 I think for many groups of people that can really work.

431
00:20:50,780 --> 00:20:51,780
 Yeah.

432
00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:54,780
 And of course, you know, like it's different trust assumptions, different trade offs and so on.

433
00:20:54,780 --> 00:20:56,780
 Again, no solutions, only trade offs.

434
00:20:56,780 --> 00:20:57,780
 Yeah.

435
00:20:57,780 --> 00:21:04,780
 Well, my, my friend, Brian, that I showed you the magic internet math card, his new slogan is Bitcoin doesn't need more believers.

436
00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:06,780
 Bitcoin needs more understanders.

437
00:21:06,780 --> 00:21:07,780
 Oh, that's a good one.

438
00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:08,780
 Yeah.

439
00:21:08,780 --> 00:21:09,780
 Yeah.

440
00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:10,780
 Yeah.

441
00:21:10,780 --> 00:21:11,780
 But it's, it's hard.

442
00:21:11,780 --> 00:21:23,780
 What's your, I mean, by you trying to educate truly non-technical people, what, what's, what is, what are some things that surprised you?

443
00:21:23,780 --> 00:21:31,780
 Um, I would say mostly just the complete lack of interest and kind of head in the sand.

444
00:21:31,780 --> 00:21:37,780
 Like don't want to know, like I'm happy with how people are very comfortable with the status quo.

445
00:21:37,780 --> 00:21:38,780
 Hmm.

446
00:21:38,780 --> 00:21:42,780
 And even people like the Amish, like they're like my dollars are dollars.

447
00:21:42,780 --> 00:21:43,780
 I've got them under my bed.

448
00:21:43,780 --> 00:21:44,780
 Yeah.

449
00:21:44,780 --> 00:21:46,780
 Like I've trade them at the market.

450
00:21:46,780 --> 00:21:50,780
 They didn't even raise their prices very much at all.

451
00:21:50,780 --> 00:21:54,780
 When like all through COVID and everything, the prices may stayed almost exactly the same.

452
00:21:54,780 --> 00:22:01,780
 Well, I guess because they don't, yeah, they don't need to have an interest in money really because they are not very reliant on money in some sense.

453
00:22:01,780 --> 00:22:02,780
 Yeah.

454
00:22:02,780 --> 00:22:03,780
 Yeah.

455
00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:10,780
 Like in their own communities, money probably doesn't even, it's not as big as a factor as for other people.

456
00:22:10,780 --> 00:22:20,780
 Another fascinating thing about the Amish is if, if you buy something, they, um, they always do like, they'll pay you a little bit, but then you'll, they'll give you a gift as well.

457
00:22:20,780 --> 00:22:21,780
 All right.

458
00:22:21,780 --> 00:22:25,780
 So there's like a, they're, they're, they're, you know, so they're partly a gift economy.

459
00:22:25,780 --> 00:22:26,780
 Yeah.

460
00:22:26,780 --> 00:22:27,780
 Yeah.

461
00:22:27,780 --> 00:22:28,780
 That's interesting.

462
00:22:28,780 --> 00:22:30,780
 I didn't know that at all.

463
00:22:30,780 --> 00:22:37,780
 I think we talked about gift economies in the past, uh, uh, here and the, the, what I think is, is awesome.

464
00:22:37,780 --> 00:22:46,780
 It's the most insulting thing you can do is give exactly the same gift back.

465
00:22:46,780 --> 00:22:47,780
 Yeah.

466
00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:52,780
 You know, it has its own kind of rules and its own kind of, um, yeah, kind of economic realities.

467
00:22:52,780 --> 00:22:57,780
 It's like, you have to gift something of more or less equal value, but it has to be very different.

468
00:22:57,780 --> 00:22:58,780
 Right.

469
00:22:58,780 --> 00:22:59,780
 You know?

470
00:22:59,780 --> 00:23:00,780
 Yeah.

471
00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:08,780
 There is this, these peculiar rules that, that emerge in a gift economy, but yeah, no, I mean, I, I, I hope it's going to happen.

472
00:23:08,780 --> 00:23:13,780
 I think, I think Bitcoin is the right technology for the Amish. That's for sure.

473
00:23:13,780 --> 00:23:14,780
 Yeah.

474
00:23:14,780 --> 00:23:20,780
 Well, and then obviously the, the next, you know, rug pull pain point is the internet connection.

475
00:23:20,780 --> 00:23:22,780
 Oh yeah, that's where the mesh networks come from.

476
00:23:22,780 --> 00:23:23,780
 Yep.

477
00:23:23,780 --> 00:23:47,780
 So that's, that's basically, I mean, that's what we are trying to do here, um, right now in the, in the current cohort is to figure out how can we re-architect some parts of the internet and lean into mesh networks more to just be resilient and just have, you know, like local networks and internets and so on where, um, you can still do commerce and you can still have access to services.

478
00:23:47,780 --> 00:23:48,780
 Yeah.

479
00:23:48,780 --> 00:23:55,780
 Just like modern services, like document processing and just, you know, tools that you will need for collaboration and so on.

480
00:23:55,780 --> 00:23:56,780
 Absolutely.

481
00:23:56,780 --> 00:23:57,780
 So yeah.

482
00:23:57,780 --> 00:24:01,780
 Tell me, tell me more about Archipelago and the current project you're working on and how, how that came together.

483
00:24:01,780 --> 00:24:04,780
 Like, first of all, how came it, how, how did it come together?

484
00:24:04,780 --> 00:24:05,780
 What was the need for it?

485
00:24:05,780 --> 00:24:09,780
 And how, how ended, how come that you ended up working on that?

486
00:24:09,780 --> 00:24:10,780
 Oh man.

487
00:24:10,780 --> 00:24:11,780
 Long story.

488
00:24:11,780 --> 00:24:12,780
 Long story.

489
00:24:12,780 --> 00:24:13,780
 We have time.

490
00:24:13,780 --> 00:24:14,780
 We have time.

491
00:24:14,780 --> 00:24:15,780
 Yeah, yeah.

492
00:24:15,780 --> 00:24:16,780
 We have time.

493
00:24:16,780 --> 00:24:17,780
 The path is long.

494
00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:35,780
 So, so my first introduction was when I was invited into the, what's called the Meshtadel, which is the idea is that we have citadels all over the world.

495
00:24:35,780 --> 00:24:39,780
 And then those are kind of meshed together.

496
00:24:39,780 --> 00:24:43,780
 And I, I thought I really, I, people ask me, what does it mean?

497
00:24:43,780 --> 00:24:44,780
 Like on podcasts and stuff.

498
00:24:44,780 --> 00:24:50,780
 And I, I, when I first joined, I thought it was literally like about the alternative internet.

499
00:24:50,780 --> 00:24:59,780
 And it may be that it's also about just the communities connecting together in a mesh kind of way.

500
00:24:59,780 --> 00:25:01,780
 But ultimately it's about resilience.

501
00:25:01,780 --> 00:25:12,780
 Um, any node can be taken out and, you know, either you set up two, two new nodes where those nodes were, or you route around the failure.

502
00:25:12,780 --> 00:25:14,780
 Nothing happens to the overall system.

503
00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:15,780
 Yeah.

504
00:25:15,780 --> 00:25:16,780
 Like that's the idea.

505
00:25:16,780 --> 00:25:17,780
 That's very much like Bitcoin works.

506
00:25:17,780 --> 00:25:19,780
 If my Bitcoin node goes down, it doesn't matter.

507
00:25:19,780 --> 00:25:23,780
 It maybe matters to me a little bit, but overall it doesn't matter.

508
00:25:23,780 --> 00:25:24,780
 Yeah.

509
00:25:24,780 --> 00:25:34,780
 To contrast that to, you know, one AWS node going down or, uh, one cloud flare node going down, like half the internet grinds to a standstill as we've seen in the last, you know, 18 months or so.

510
00:25:34,780 --> 00:25:35,780
 Yeah.

511
00:25:35,780 --> 00:25:41,780
 So very, very different approach, very different approach from a network architecture point of view.

512
00:25:41,780 --> 00:25:42,780
 So how come you got in touch?

513
00:25:42,780 --> 00:25:45,780
 Like, like, uh, who, who invited you to that?

514
00:25:45,780 --> 00:25:46,780
 Who invited you to the master though?

515
00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:55,780
 So ironically, so that was a guy I met right after I left Austin, I met a guy in Austin who goes by Polycarp Nakamoto.

516
00:25:55,780 --> 00:26:15,780
 And he was, uh, really, he was doing a lot of boots on the ground work, educating people about data capture and, um, uh, helping people install graphene phones and Linux laptops.

517
00:26:15,780 --> 00:26:21,780
 Um, but as soon as I, he invited me into the channel, there was like all these people who I already knew.

518
00:26:21,780 --> 00:26:22,780
 Yeah.

519
00:26:22,780 --> 00:26:25,780
 So it was like instantly, I was like, Oh, this is where everybody is.

520
00:26:25,780 --> 00:26:29,780
 Um, so that's an incredible group of people.

521
00:26:29,780 --> 00:26:35,780
 Uh, we do the, the, the Lake Satoshi meet, uh, every summer in Michigan.

522
00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:37,780
 The Michigan group is really, really strong.

523
00:26:37,780 --> 00:26:39,780
 There's some like, uh, rev hodl.

524
00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:49,780
 Um, but it was kind of funny because, uh, the, the first time I went, well, I don't, I won't talk about that.

525
00:26:49,780 --> 00:26:54,780
 It's just, it was really incredible meeting these people in person.

526
00:26:54,780 --> 00:26:58,780
 Um, and yeah, I think this is, that's not optional.

527
00:26:58,780 --> 00:26:59,780
 Yeah.

528
00:26:59,780 --> 00:27:04,780
 Because part of, part of the mesh network, uh, idea, right.

529
00:27:04,780 --> 00:27:07,780
 Is like, you need to have a community to have a mesh network.

530
00:27:07,780 --> 00:27:08,780
 Yep.

531
00:27:08,780 --> 00:27:13,780
 And, uh, lots of things rely on trust, even though we're in the world of cryptographic proof, all those kinds of things.

532
00:27:13,780 --> 00:27:22,780
 But just to, to know that this cryptographic identity you're dealing with is actually the person that you want to interact with.

533
00:27:22,780 --> 00:27:24,780
 You need to meet in person.

534
00:27:24,780 --> 00:27:30,780
 You need to, you need to build these connections in some way, shape or form over long periods of time.

535
00:27:30,780 --> 00:27:32,780
 And, you know, also validate in person.

536
00:27:32,780 --> 00:27:33,780
 Yeah.

537
00:27:33,780 --> 00:27:35,780
 Otherwise you never know, are you dealing with a spook or not or what have you.

538
00:27:35,780 --> 00:27:36,780
 Yeah.

539
00:27:36,780 --> 00:27:38,780
 And that's why PGP signing parties are a thing, obviously.

540
00:27:38,780 --> 00:27:39,780
 Yeah.

541
00:27:39,780 --> 00:27:39,780
 Right.

542
00:27:39,780 --> 00:27:43,780
 Like it's, it's, you need to have like, how paranoid do you want to be?

543
00:27:43,780 --> 00:27:48,780
 And depending on your level of paranoia, you definitely want to meet the people in person as well.

544
00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:49,780
 Yeah.

545
00:27:49,780 --> 00:27:56,780
 And I think it's also like, if you just want to loosely collaborate on all those kinds of things, there is no better way than spending time in person and meeting.

546
00:27:56,780 --> 00:27:58,780
 I mean, it's the whole reason why we do so many engineering.

547
00:27:58,780 --> 00:27:59,780
 Yeah.

548
00:27:59,780 --> 00:28:00,780
 Yeah.

549
00:28:00,780 --> 00:28:09,780
 It's bringing people together in person, having this high bandwidth interaction and high bandwidth communication, really get to know each other, really get to know where people are coming from.

550
00:28:09,780 --> 00:28:14,780
 And then you can just like move towards the goal in a way more efficient way.

551
00:28:14,780 --> 00:28:15,780
 Yeah.

552
00:28:15,780 --> 00:28:19,780
 And with less, you know, maybe with a little less cynicism and a little less paranoia, hopefully.

553
00:28:19,780 --> 00:28:20,780
 Yeah.

554
00:28:20,780 --> 00:28:21,780
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

555
00:28:21,780 --> 00:28:22,780
 So it's awesome that you're meeting in person.

556
00:28:22,780 --> 00:28:28,780
 And it's awesome that this, this, as far as I know, this is happening kind of all over.

557
00:28:28,780 --> 00:28:32,780
 It's happening right now all over the world where people have similar ideas.

558
00:28:32,780 --> 00:28:39,780
 And part of the deal is you need to meet in person and form these strong bonds and strong communities.

559
00:28:39,780 --> 00:28:40,780
 Otherwise.

560
00:28:40,780 --> 00:28:41,780
 Yeah.

561
00:28:41,780 --> 00:28:42,780
 The whole idea just falls apart.

562
00:28:42,780 --> 00:28:49,780
 If everyone is just a, you know, like hyper paranoid individual that doesn't want to collaborate with anyone, then you're not going to get very far.

563
00:28:49,780 --> 00:28:50,780
 Exactly.

564
00:28:50,780 --> 00:28:54,780
 Like that's kind of, it's an issue.

565
00:28:54,780 --> 00:28:55,780
 All right.

566
00:28:55,780 --> 00:28:56,780
 So you're trying to measure now.

567
00:28:56,780 --> 00:28:59,780
 So how did the project emerge from that?

568
00:28:59,780 --> 00:29:06,780
 Um, hmm.

569
00:29:06,780 --> 00:29:09,780
 Because other projects that are similar already exist, right?

570
00:29:09,780 --> 00:29:13,780
 Like there's the start nines, there's the up rolls, there's all these kinds of things.

571
00:29:13,780 --> 00:29:17,780
 What made you, what made you create one more project?

572
00:29:17,780 --> 00:29:23,780
 Well, again, boots on the ground is really where you start to see what the problems people are facing are.

573
00:29:23,780 --> 00:29:34,780
 So one of the things we have a group of techs in Austin who will go, uh, take a company and convert them over to next cloud, bring them Linux laptops training.

574
00:29:34,780 --> 00:29:45,780
 Um, which incidentally, I think if people are wondering where to make money off of this stuff, that's, that's where it's consulting, it's education, it's, um, managed services.

575
00:29:45,780 --> 00:29:48,780
 That's the redhead business, business model, basically, right?

576
00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:50,780
 It's like you, all the, all the software is open source.

577
00:29:50,780 --> 00:29:51,780
 Yeah.

578
00:29:51,780 --> 00:29:52,780
 And you could do it yourself.

579
00:29:52,780 --> 00:29:58,780
 But what you can sell is basically support and white glove, set up service and all those other things.

580
00:29:58,780 --> 00:29:59,780
 Yeah.

581
00:29:59,780 --> 00:30:03,780
 One of the things Polly always says is like, Linux is free if you don't value your time.

582
00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:04,780
 Exactly.

583
00:30:04,780 --> 00:30:05,780
 Exactly.

584
00:30:05,780 --> 00:30:09,780
 And that's, everyone who ever set up anything from scratch knows that this is true.

585
00:30:09,780 --> 00:30:10,780
 Yeah.

586
00:30:10,780 --> 00:30:11,780
 Yeah.

587
00:30:11,780 --> 00:30:20,780
 So, um, so even things like, uh, just setting up next cloud, um, it, it takes, it's not easy, uh, but you end up putting, you need a big server.

588
00:30:20,780 --> 00:30:21,780
 Yeah.

589
00:30:21,780 --> 00:30:30,780
 So it's not really something, even though start nine has that capability, they don't, it's not, it's not ready for a big company to do.

590
00:30:30,780 --> 00:30:31,780
 Yeah.

591
00:30:31,780 --> 00:30:43,780
 Um, and then the same thing, um, if you want to, uh, say run your entire restaurant off of, uh, a node, it's very, very possible.

592
00:30:43,780 --> 00:30:50,780
 All the tools are there, but you, it's, you need something a bit more than a start nine or an umbral.

593
00:30:50,780 --> 00:31:08,780
 Um, so, so we came up with this idea to create a new node that was scalable from a, a simple desktop node, like a start nine, but all the way up to having, having it basically be modular.

594
00:31:08,780 --> 00:31:10,780
 So you can add storage to it.

595
00:31:10,780 --> 00:31:14,780
 You can, uh, you can make it as big or as small as it needs to be.

596
00:31:14,780 --> 00:31:19,780
 So that's, that's, that's, that's already trending towards a mesh network idea where you have.

597
00:31:19,780 --> 00:31:20,780
 Exactly.

598
00:31:20,780 --> 00:31:23,780
 Basically that's, that's, that's one way to get modularity.

599
00:31:23,780 --> 00:31:24,780
 Yeah.

600
00:31:24,780 --> 00:31:28,780
 To spin up a second node and it still feels like everything is running on one node.

601
00:31:28,780 --> 00:31:29,780
 Yep.

602
00:31:29,780 --> 00:31:30,780
 Yeah, I see.

603
00:31:30,780 --> 00:31:39,780
 And then as well, if you, um, I had a, uh, a friend, so back to the, the Bitcoin mining days, um, I'm still friends with all those guys in Houston.

604
00:31:39,780 --> 00:31:56,780
 And, uh, one of the guys had a bunch of shops and he was having trouble with the credit card companies because they were wanting to charge him 20% on top because he was in a, uh, challenged industry, let's say.

605
00:31:56,780 --> 00:32:02,780
 Um, so my proposal was like, well, you've got these shops all over Houston.

606
00:32:02,780 --> 00:32:12,780
 What if we put a node in every shop, put an antenna up and then all of the shops are actually talking to each other over, over some kind of mesh network.

607
00:32:12,780 --> 00:32:17,780
 Um, what kind of antenna are you thinking when you're proposing something like that?

608
00:32:17,780 --> 00:32:26,780
 Uh, initially just, um, like there's some pretty radical, uh, Laura antennas that, that increase the range and reliability of them.

609
00:32:26,780 --> 00:32:32,780
 Um, the, what was the antenna that you, that you had now in the node that you showed off?

610
00:32:32,780 --> 00:32:35,780
 Uh, just a little, just a little, nothing special.

611
00:32:35,780 --> 00:32:36,780
 But what was the name again?

612
00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:39,780
 Uh, that we're using the, so those are mesh core.

613
00:32:39,780 --> 00:32:40,780
 All right.

614
00:32:40,780 --> 00:32:41,780
 Yeah.

615
00:32:41,780 --> 00:32:48,780
 And the main reason we're doing that is, um, uh, Zaza noticed that in the, in London mesh core is like super popular.

616
00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:49,780
 Okay.

617
00:32:49,780 --> 00:32:50,780
 Okay.

618
00:32:50,780 --> 00:32:51,780
 Okay.

619
00:32:51,780 --> 00:32:52,780
 Yeah.

620
00:32:52,780 --> 00:32:53,780
 Yeah.

621
00:32:53,780 --> 00:32:54,780
 I mean, that's, that's, that's part of the problem, right?

622
00:32:54,780 --> 00:32:57,780
 It's like, you need to use the stuff that everyone else is using in the mesh environment.

623
00:32:57,780 --> 00:33:03,780
 You have like, you know, obviously very strong network effects by definition.

624
00:33:03,780 --> 00:33:07,780
 So, and how did that go with, uh, with, with the antenna idea?

625
00:33:07,780 --> 00:33:09,780
 I mean, they're all still ideas.

626
00:33:09,780 --> 00:33:10,780
 Yeah.

627
00:33:10,780 --> 00:33:14,780
 But, but, but again, like, like we need community deployments.

628
00:33:14,780 --> 00:33:17,780
 So that would have been a project in Houston.

629
00:33:17,780 --> 00:33:19,780
 Um, Austin's already covered with mesh tastic.

630
00:33:19,780 --> 00:33:21,780
 So there's a lot we can do there.

631
00:33:21,780 --> 00:33:30,780
 But, um, now with, in London, we've got locations, uh, a few locations around London that we could

632
00:33:30,780 --> 00:33:33,780
 start putting up nodes and towers and nodes and antennas.

633
00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:40,780
 Um, so the, the, so our new idea is basically that we, and, and this is another thing I talked

634
00:33:40,780 --> 00:33:47,780
 about it with the guys at the meetup last night, like Madura is a perfect place to do this.

635
00:33:47,780 --> 00:33:48,780
 Yeah.

636
00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:49,780
 Yeah, absolutely.

637
00:33:49,780 --> 00:33:56,780
 Um, and then there's a lot of other things we can do.

638
00:33:56,780 --> 00:34:04,780
 Like, um, I want to design an edge device that kind of handles some of the alternative traffic as well.

639
00:34:04,780 --> 00:34:10,780
 Um, but on the edge device, you can add in BLE radar and, uh, Ray Hunter.

640
00:34:10,780 --> 00:34:17,780
 So you can actually like, if you're in the, if you're, if you have your, uh, a property out in the middle of nowhere,

641
00:34:17,780 --> 00:34:23,780
 you can have, you've got your node running on your TV and it can say like Bluetooth connection that I've never seen before.

642
00:34:23,780 --> 00:34:24,780
 Okay.

643
00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:25,780
 Okay.

644
00:34:25,780 --> 00:34:26,780
 Okay.

645
00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:28,780
 So Ray Hunter basically just scans what is around you.

646
00:34:28,780 --> 00:34:29,780
 Well, yeah.

647
00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:36,780
 Ray Hunter is, uh, for cell signals and, uh, what was it BLE?

648
00:34:36,780 --> 00:34:37,780
 Uh, my brain.

649
00:34:37,780 --> 00:34:38,780
 Yeah.

650
00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:39,780
 BLE is the Bluetooth.

651
00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:40,780
 Yeah.

652
00:34:40,780 --> 00:34:44,780
 So having those two, you can kind of see if, if there's anybody strange in your neighborhood.

653
00:34:44,780 --> 00:34:45,780
 All right.

654
00:34:45,780 --> 00:34:51,780
 Um, I mean, part of the challenge is to actually get a mesh network up and running, right?

655
00:34:51,780 --> 00:35:02,780
 Like what's your, what's your thoughts around that in terms of like, um, what, what I think, let's, let's, let's take Pitchat as an example.

656
00:35:02,780 --> 00:35:03,780
 Yeah.

657
00:35:03,780 --> 00:35:08,780
 I think what makes Pitchat work is that everyone has a cell phone already.

658
00:35:08,780 --> 00:35:09,780
 Yeah.

659
00:35:09,780 --> 00:35:13,780
 And basically you're meeting people where they're at.

660
00:35:13,780 --> 00:35:20,780
 And, uh, of course, you know, like only people that are in extreme environments events or are enthusiasts are using it right now.

661
00:35:20,780 --> 00:35:37,780
 So if the internet is sketch, is, is, gets shut down by, you know, the government or whatever, then you can use that as a fallback that will still work if you're in close proximity and so on and you're participating in a protest or what have you.

662
00:35:37,780 --> 00:35:44,780
 And, and so I think, um, by the way, that's also, I think what all people are, but really right.

663
00:35:44,780 --> 00:35:46,780
 It's like meeting people where they're at.

664
00:35:46,780 --> 00:35:51,780
 It's like, you, you, you roll out a new thing and no one needs to install anything.

665
00:35:51,780 --> 00:35:58,780
 It's like, you just, you open your WhatsApp or your signal or your telegram or whatever you use to chat with people.

666
00:35:58,780 --> 00:36:04,780
 And suddenly you're chatting with an AI chatbot that is really capable, you know, like it's, it's literally meeting people where they're at.

667
00:36:04,780 --> 00:36:16,780
 And in the mesh network world, I think what can really work is to, um, have something like archipelago, have something like combined with a hardware node.

668
00:36:16,780 --> 00:36:17,780
 Yeah.

669
00:36:17,780 --> 00:36:18,780
 That people want to get because it's awesome.

670
00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:19,780
 Yeah.

671
00:36:19,780 --> 00:36:22,780
 And, and I think it's perfectly fine.

672
00:36:22,780 --> 00:36:34,780
 If you, if you use the regular internet for a lot of the functionality, because it's, it's still, you know, like if you're out in somewhere alone in a rural area, you're not going to connect to a mesh network instantly.

673
00:36:34,780 --> 00:36:35,780
 Right.

674
00:36:35,780 --> 00:36:36,780
 Like that's basically impossible.

675
00:36:36,780 --> 00:36:37,780
 Right.

676
00:36:37,780 --> 00:36:46,780
 But if this proliferates and if it spreads, if the hardware basically spreads enough, then you can always use it as a fallback and second layer.

677
00:36:46,780 --> 00:36:47,780
 Like that's, that's one approach.

678
00:36:47,780 --> 00:36:48,780
 Right.

679
00:36:48,780 --> 00:36:58,780
 And the second one would be to get into close knit communities and build kind of local first networks where it's just like, okay, this is what we're going to do.

680
00:36:58,780 --> 00:37:06,780
 And from this point on, like, you know, we have our, whatever internal bullet imports and so on, and they don't even rely on internet infrastructure.

681
00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:07,780
 Yep.

682
00:37:07,780 --> 00:37:10,780
 Is that kind of, did I get the, did I get the big picture, right?

683
00:37:10,780 --> 00:37:11,780
 Absolutely.

684
00:37:11,780 --> 00:37:17,780
 And then, and then on top of that, we can set up a long haul projects.

685
00:37:17,780 --> 00:37:20,780
 So like our goal is to get Austin to Nashville.

686
00:37:20,780 --> 00:37:21,780
 Yeah.

687
00:37:21,780 --> 00:37:22,780
 So that's like its own project.

688
00:37:22,780 --> 00:37:24,780
 It's got to connect these communities.

689
00:37:24,780 --> 00:37:25,780
 Yeah.

690
00:37:25,780 --> 00:37:28,780
 It's got, it's got a cost to it, but it's totally doable.

691
00:37:28,780 --> 00:37:29,780
 How would you connect them?

692
00:37:29,780 --> 00:37:32,780
 What's your, what's your best guess in terms of how this could work?

693
00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:41,780
 Um, it depends on if you go completely legit or if you go, uh, the anarchist route.

694
00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:45,780
 So my, my favorite way is, is obviously we've been talking about balloons.

695
00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:48,780
 Um, well, one guy has been talking about balloons.

696
00:37:48,780 --> 00:37:54,780
 Well, cover doors, wants to, to put balloons everywhere to just put toll gates on them, basically.

697
00:37:54,780 --> 00:38:03,780
 So, so let's quickly segue into the next thing I discovered, which was, uh, I started traveling between all the Bitcoin communities in the US.

698
00:38:03,780 --> 00:38:07,780
 And then I traveled all around the Bitcoin communities in Europe.

699
00:38:07,780 --> 00:38:18,780
 And then back in the US the following year, I started hooking up more with the freedom communities and the homesteaders who are, who don't care about Bitcoin.

700
00:38:18,780 --> 00:38:23,780
 They use the gold back, you know, the little floppy gold dollar bill things.

701
00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:31,780
 Um, but they don't care about Bitcoin, but they care about absolutely everything else we're doing.

702
00:38:31,780 --> 00:38:32,780
 Yeah.

703
00:38:32,780 --> 00:38:44,780
 So I've all of the verbiage for archipelago is about sovereignty, about data sovereignty.

704
00:38:44,780 --> 00:38:45,780
 Don't mention the B word.

705
00:38:45,780 --> 00:38:46,780
 Don't mention the B word.

706
00:38:46,780 --> 00:38:47,780
 Yeah.

707
00:38:47,780 --> 00:38:55,780
 But it, but fundamentally like Bitcoin is, is the mesh network that is global and that syncs with every block.

708
00:38:55,780 --> 00:38:56,780
 Hmm.

709
00:38:56,780 --> 00:38:59,780
 So we want to anchor it into that in some way.

710
00:38:59,780 --> 00:39:21,780
 Um, and so you give them a node, the node, you know, now they're, they're, we have to make it easy enough so that, uh, like one of the examples I used last night is like, I mean, how many fathers know that their daughters are running around with these phones, sharing all their data, uploading all their pictures to Apple and to Google.

711
00:39:21,780 --> 00:39:29,780
 And they would really like for them to be able to have it saved locally, but they had, don't have the technological ability to do it.

712
00:39:29,780 --> 00:39:30,780
 Yeah.

713
00:39:30,780 --> 00:39:37,780
 So we need something easy enough that you, you either buy or boot a node at your house.

714
00:39:37,780 --> 00:39:40,780
 You can do device attestation.

715
00:39:40,780 --> 00:39:44,780
 So you plug in your graphene phone, uh, you're plugging a pixel phone.

716
00:39:44,780 --> 00:39:46,780
 It flashes it to graphene.

717
00:39:46,780 --> 00:39:52,780
 You create a profile for your daughter and then most of her apps can still run.

718
00:39:52,780 --> 00:39:59,780
 There might be one or two that you're just like you, like I'm, I'm the dad, you're not going to use this app, but you can use this one and this one.

719
00:39:59,780 --> 00:40:12,780
 Um, and, and now all of, all of their stuff that you're, you're able to at least mitigate a large amount of the, the data leakage and the metadata leakage and stuff.

720
00:40:12,780 --> 00:40:18,780
 So that's part of the vision to really build a node that basically, I mean, there's the uncle Jim concept, right?

721
00:40:18,780 --> 00:40:21,780
 Where you just, you have something that other people can use.

722
00:40:21,780 --> 00:40:22,780
 Yeah.

723
00:40:22,780 --> 00:40:25,780
 And, um, again, like different trust assumptions.

724
00:40:25,780 --> 00:40:28,780
 You, you, you, you, you, you are the dad in charge, as you say.

725
00:40:28,780 --> 00:40:29,780
 Yeah.

726
00:40:29,780 --> 00:40:33,780
 Well, I want to turn uncle Jim into archipelago community nodes.

727
00:40:33,780 --> 00:40:34,780
 Yeah.

728
00:40:34,780 --> 00:40:37,780
 So you've got four people in the neighborhood running Fediment guardians.

729
00:40:37,780 --> 00:40:39,780
 You've got one decent sized server.

730
00:40:39,780 --> 00:40:42,780
 That's like in, at either someone's house.

731
00:40:42,780 --> 00:40:46,780
 Um, whoever has a really good connection, like fiber connection or something.

732
00:40:46,780 --> 00:40:50,780
 And then you now, and then you're also running a private Nostra relay.

733
00:40:50,780 --> 00:40:55,780
 That's only available to the people who are invited into the community.

734
00:40:55,780 --> 00:41:04,780
 And once we have that, you can start, you find a, um, a 12 year old comes and mows your yard.

735
00:41:04,780 --> 00:41:08,780
 And he's like, he really has a lot of motivation, wants to earn money.

736
00:41:08,780 --> 00:41:14,780
 You can invite him into the community and then you can have a community job board where all

737
00:41:14,780 --> 00:41:18,780
 he has to do is like check his phone in the morning and see if there's any jobs he wants

738
00:41:18,780 --> 00:41:19,780
 to do.

739
00:41:19,780 --> 00:41:23,780
 And then he can agree to do the job.

740
00:41:23,780 --> 00:41:26,780
 So now you've got a signed, uh, event.

741
00:41:26,780 --> 00:41:32,780
 Um, and then the other thing, if he, if he say he, he agrees to do three jobs, but he

742
00:41:32,780 --> 00:41:38,780
 doesn't show up, whoever invited him into the community is, is, you know, who invited him

743
00:41:38,780 --> 00:41:39,780
 into the community.

744
00:41:39,780 --> 00:41:42,780
 So you instantly have kind of a web of trust aspect.

745
00:41:42,780 --> 00:41:43,780
 Yeah.

746
00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:46,780
 So he can call him up and he can say, Hey man, it looks like you've been, uh, agreeing

747
00:41:46,780 --> 00:41:48,780
 to do jobs and you're never showing up.

748
00:41:48,780 --> 00:41:49,780
 What's wrong?

749
00:41:49,780 --> 00:41:52,780
 And you go, Oh, you don't understand how it works.

750
00:41:52,780 --> 00:41:53,780
 You need a bit more education.

751
00:41:53,780 --> 00:41:54,780
 Oh, you're nervous.

752
00:41:54,780 --> 00:41:55,780
 Call me up.

753
00:41:55,780 --> 00:41:56,780
 If you're nervous, like I'll help you out.

754
00:41:56,780 --> 00:41:57,780
 Well, I'll go over there together with you.

755
00:41:57,780 --> 00:41:59,780
 I'll introduce him.

756
00:41:59,780 --> 00:42:01,780
 So he's level zero.

757
00:42:01,780 --> 00:42:10,780
 Um, and as he does different jobs, he's able to increase his ranking inside the community.

758
00:42:10,780 --> 00:42:12,780
 And then he turns 15.

759
00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:15,780
 He's able to do deliveries on a scooter.

760
00:42:15,780 --> 00:42:16,780
 He turned 16.

761
00:42:16,780 --> 00:42:18,780
 He's able to do deliveries by car.

762
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:20,780
 He turns 18.

763
00:42:20,780 --> 00:42:22,780
 He joins the ride sharing network.

764
00:42:22,780 --> 00:42:25,780
 And now he's able to drive people around the whole time.

765
00:42:25,780 --> 00:42:28,780
 He's building reputation inside the private community.

766
00:42:28,780 --> 00:42:35,780
 Now, when he's 18, he can go out onto the real Noster.

767
00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:37,780
 Okay.

768
00:42:37,780 --> 00:42:41,780
 But he, but the community has his reputation.

769
00:42:41,780 --> 00:42:43,780
 That's where his reputation is stored.

770
00:42:43,780 --> 00:42:50,780
 So they run their own instance of like grapevine or something like that, or, or, uh, Relater.

771
00:42:50,780 --> 00:42:54,780
 And so the community serves your reputation.

772
00:42:54,780 --> 00:42:57,780
 So now he wants to go traveling.

773
00:42:57,780 --> 00:43:00,780
 So he says, I'm going to Madeira for two weeks.

774
00:43:00,780 --> 00:43:03,780
 I have a, uh, 400 euro budget.

775
00:43:03,780 --> 00:43:05,780
 Does anyone have a place to stay?

776
00:43:05,780 --> 00:43:19,780
 Now in Madeira, somebody with an apartment is running an agent that's looking for these anonymous blobs on Noster that only show the information that needs to be shown.

777
00:43:19,780 --> 00:43:24,780
 So you respond to the kid, you say, I've got a, I've got a couch for 300.

778
00:43:24,780 --> 00:43:25,780
 Is that all right?

779
00:43:25,780 --> 00:43:26,780
 Yeah.

780
00:43:26,780 --> 00:43:28,780
 The kid goes, Oh, that's amazing.

781
00:43:28,780 --> 00:43:30,780
 They, they negotiate the price.

782
00:43:30,780 --> 00:43:35,780
 He, uh, puts the Bitcoin in escrow.

783
00:43:35,780 --> 00:43:37,780
 He shows up in Madeira.

784
00:43:37,780 --> 00:43:40,780
 They scan QR codes, hand him the keys.

785
00:43:40,780 --> 00:43:43,780
 And now he's checked in.

786
00:43:43,780 --> 00:43:52,780
 You can also have a collateral or, or a way of like making sure that he doesn't trash the place.

787
00:43:52,780 --> 00:43:58,780
 So when he checks out, you scan another QR code, his deposit goes back to the, goes back to the kid.

788
00:43:58,780 --> 00:44:14,780
 Um, but this, this all came, I w I was trying to, I had a bad experience with, uh, I don't want to name any names, but another Bitcoin, uh, house sharing company.

789
00:44:14,780 --> 00:44:15,780
 Yeah.

790
00:44:15,780 --> 00:44:20,780
 So I was like, this is so, there's no web of trust.

791
00:44:20,780 --> 00:44:22,780
 It's not Noster enabled.

792
00:44:22,780 --> 00:44:26,780
 They did what they could at the time, but we need to take this to the next level.

793
00:44:26,780 --> 00:44:27,780
 Yeah.

794
00:44:27,780 --> 00:44:28,780
 Yeah.

795
00:44:28,780 --> 00:44:38,780
 I mean, that's, that's basically the, the reputation and trust part is what makes something like an Uber and something like an Airbnb and those kinds of things work.

796
00:44:38,780 --> 00:44:39,780
 Yeah.

797
00:44:39,780 --> 00:44:42,780
 Because you've got a trusted third party who keeps all the reputation.

798
00:44:42,780 --> 00:44:43,780
 Yes, absolutely.

799
00:44:43,780 --> 00:44:44,780
 Absolutely.

800
00:44:44,780 --> 00:44:45,780
 That's the, that's the downside.

801
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:46,780
 It's all, it's all centralized.

802
00:44:46,780 --> 00:44:54,780
 And there is a single point of failure in terms of, um, coordinating the whole thing and in terms of keeping their reputation and so on.

803
00:44:54,780 --> 00:44:55,780
 Yeah.

804
00:44:55,780 --> 00:45:01,780
 Um, but what's interesting is that this stuff really works.

805
00:45:01,780 --> 00:45:02,780
 Yeah.

806
00:45:02,780 --> 00:45:10,780
 And you know, like not too long ago, the go to wisdom of the day was, uh, don't meet anyone online.

807
00:45:10,780 --> 00:45:14,780
 Everyone online is, you know, like a criminal and a pedophile and so on.

808
00:45:14,780 --> 00:45:17,780
 Um, and definitely don't jump into strangers' cars.

809
00:45:17,780 --> 00:45:22,780
 Which I learned from the, the early nineties was not the case.

810
00:45:22,780 --> 00:45:25,780
 I, I had real friends on IRC.

811
00:45:25,780 --> 00:45:30,780
 I flew to Oslo, stayed with my friend, hung out for two weeks.

812
00:45:30,780 --> 00:45:37,780
 Like, like it was the, the, it was so liberating.

813
00:45:37,780 --> 00:45:42,780
 So early on, you learned that the going wisdom as the, at the time was misguided.

814
00:45:42,780 --> 00:45:43,780
 Yes.

815
00:45:43,780 --> 00:45:46,780
 But we had built up a, we had built up trust.

816
00:45:46,780 --> 00:45:47,780
 We had been, we had been helping.

817
00:45:47,780 --> 00:45:52,780
 I saw this guy helping people for five years before I went and visited them.

818
00:45:52,780 --> 00:45:53,780
 Yeah, sure.

819
00:45:53,780 --> 00:45:54,780
 I mean, it was the same for me.

820
00:45:54,780 --> 00:45:56,780
 I come from the gaming side, basically.

821
00:45:56,780 --> 00:45:57,780
 Yeah.

822
00:45:57,780 --> 00:46:03,780
 I grew up with LAN parties and, and that was the thing, uh, you know, I did for like forever.

823
00:46:03,780 --> 00:46:05,780
 Way over a decade.

824
00:46:05,780 --> 00:46:13,780
 And I was very, very young when like, I wasn't even big enough to carry the machines.

825
00:46:13,780 --> 00:46:15,780
 Wow.

826
00:46:15,780 --> 00:46:18,780
 So I was very, very young when I got into the LAN party business.

827
00:46:18,780 --> 00:46:25,780
 And that was, um, someone in the cohort just mentioned two days ago, like who here remembers IPX, SPX.

828
00:46:25,780 --> 00:46:26,780
 And I was like, yeah, yeah.

829
00:46:26,780 --> 00:46:31,780
 First games I played were running on IPX, SPX and not TCP/IP.

830
00:46:31,780 --> 00:46:36,780
 You know, like, like there was a different kind of protocol war going on back in that day.

831
00:46:36,780 --> 00:46:37,780
 Absolutely.

832
00:46:37,780 --> 00:46:41,780
 And just, just getting computers to talk to each other, even if they are in the same room was really hard.

833
00:46:41,780 --> 00:46:42,780
 Yeah.

834
00:46:42,780 --> 00:46:47,780
 But yeah, I had a similar experience in the sense that, that obviously then later on switched to online.

835
00:46:47,780 --> 00:46:49,780
 Later on switched to online gaming and so on.

836
00:46:49,780 --> 00:46:52,780
 And I met many people that I met online.

837
00:46:52,780 --> 00:46:55,780
 And you built, again, like it's the same thing.

838
00:46:55,780 --> 00:47:01,780
 It's like what you sketched out in the, in the hypothetical thought experiment where you start with mowing lawns.

839
00:47:01,780 --> 00:47:03,780
 And then you turn 16 and 18 and so on.

840
00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:04,780
 Yeah.

841
00:47:04,780 --> 00:47:08,780
 Like I played tournaments and was in clans with people that I haven't seen ever.

842
00:47:08,780 --> 00:47:10,780
 And I knew them for like six, seven, eight years.

843
00:47:10,780 --> 00:47:11,780
 Did you ever go to QuakeCon?

844
00:47:11,780 --> 00:47:12,780
 Probably not.

845
00:47:12,780 --> 00:47:13,780
 No, not QuakeCon.

846
00:47:13,780 --> 00:47:14,780
 Oh my God.

847
00:47:14,780 --> 00:47:15,780
 That was the best.

848
00:47:15,780 --> 00:47:16,780
 I went for years.

849
00:47:16,780 --> 00:47:17,780
 I took my kids there.

850
00:47:17,780 --> 00:47:18,780
 It was incredible.

851
00:47:18,780 --> 00:47:19,780
 Awesome.

852
00:47:19,780 --> 00:47:20,780
 Yeah.

853
00:47:20,780 --> 00:47:21,780
 Awesome.

854
00:47:21,780 --> 00:47:22,780
 No, I wish.

855
00:47:22,780 --> 00:47:26,780
 I mean, you know, like I, as a European, it was different, I guess.

856
00:47:26,780 --> 00:47:27,780
 Yeah.

857
00:47:27,780 --> 00:47:33,780
 And I mean, I'm sure there was stigma in the US as well and all those kinds of things, but

858
00:47:33,780 --> 00:47:38,780
 at least there were events, you know, like in, in, in Europe, there was for a long time,

859
00:47:38,780 --> 00:47:39,780
 there was almost nothing.

860
00:47:39,780 --> 00:47:43,780
 And, um, yeah, I, I also, I was too young at the time.

861
00:47:43,780 --> 00:47:47,780
 So the first events I went to were like really big LAN parties, like a thousand people LAN parties

862
00:47:47,780 --> 00:47:48,780
 and so on.

863
00:47:48,780 --> 00:47:50,780
 That was the, the, the biggest stuff back in the day.

864
00:47:50,780 --> 00:47:57,780
 And, um, e-sports didn't really exist yet in, except for, you know, South Korea.

865
00:47:57,780 --> 00:47:58,780
 Yeah.

866
00:47:58,780 --> 00:48:01,780
 I watched them develop at QuakeCon.

867
00:48:01,780 --> 00:48:04,780
 Um, cause that was another, it was a thousand person LAN party.

868
00:48:04,780 --> 00:48:05,780
 Yeah.

869
00:48:05,780 --> 00:48:08,780
 Um, but then they, they ended up having like, I think around when Quake three arena came out,

870
00:48:08,780 --> 00:48:11,780
 they started like doing more e-sports type of stuff.

871
00:48:11,780 --> 00:48:12,780
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

872
00:48:12,780 --> 00:48:15,780
 I mean, Quake three was like very high skill ceiling.

873
00:48:15,780 --> 00:48:17,780
 So very, very good for, for e-sports.

874
00:48:17,780 --> 00:48:18,780
 Yeah.

875
00:48:18,780 --> 00:48:20,780
 Just like chess, you know, like you can get, get infinitely good at it.

876
00:48:20,780 --> 00:48:31,780
 And, um, yeah, later on, I, I, uh, I went to some bigger tournaments than, uh, for Walker

877
00:48:31,780 --> 00:48:33,780
 three and, uh, especially CS.

878
00:48:33,780 --> 00:48:35,780
 So Counter Strike was something I played a lot.

879
00:48:35,780 --> 00:48:39,780
 And so I went to some majors with some friends, but just to watch, never to play.

880
00:48:39,780 --> 00:48:40,780
 Yeah.

881
00:48:40,780 --> 00:48:41,780
 What was the first one?

882
00:48:41,780 --> 00:48:42,780
 Was it Wolfenstein you're saying?

883
00:48:42,780 --> 00:48:43,780
 Or what did you say?

884
00:48:43,780 --> 00:48:44,780
 Yeah.

885
00:48:44,780 --> 00:48:45,780
 Yeah.

886
00:48:45,780 --> 00:48:46,780
 Yeah.

887
00:48:46,780 --> 00:48:53,780
 That's like, I mean, I, the first games we played were, it, um, it was the, the big printer

888
00:48:53,780 --> 00:48:55,780
 cables, like the serial port printer cables.

889
00:48:55,780 --> 00:48:56,780
 Uh-huh.

890
00:48:56,780 --> 00:49:00,780
 And it was like one-on-one car racing games or like basically Pong, you know?

891
00:49:00,780 --> 00:49:01,780
 Yeah.

892
00:49:01,780 --> 00:49:03,780
 Like that was, it was pre 3D games.

893
00:49:03,780 --> 00:49:04,780
 Yep.

894
00:49:04,780 --> 00:49:09,780
 And, and so the first games, um, that we played were the first 3D games that came out.

895
00:49:09,780 --> 00:49:10,780
 It was Wolfenstein and Duke Nukem.

896
00:49:10,780 --> 00:49:11,780
 Oh yeah.

897
00:49:11,780 --> 00:49:12,780
 And so on.

898
00:49:12,780 --> 00:49:13,780
 Yep.

899
00:49:13,780 --> 00:49:14,780
 Duke Nukem.

900
00:49:14,780 --> 00:49:15,780
 I played a lot.

901
00:49:15,780 --> 00:49:16,780
 So.

902
00:49:16,780 --> 00:49:17,780
 Good.

903
00:49:17,780 --> 00:49:18,780
 Me too.

904
00:49:18,780 --> 00:49:19,780
 That was, that was great.

905
00:49:19,780 --> 00:49:20,780
 So yeah, I grew up on that.

906
00:49:20,780 --> 00:49:22,780
 So that, that was my childhood or part of my childhood.

907
00:49:22,780 --> 00:49:27,780
 Well, my youngest who's 25, he, he grew up on, uh, on all those games, like from a very

908
00:49:27,780 --> 00:49:34,780
 young age and then even my oldest daughter, um, she could barely sit up, but I put a joystick

909
00:49:34,780 --> 00:49:40,780
 with, um, suction cups to a folding chair and she could play, and she could play doom.

910
00:49:40,780 --> 00:49:41,780
 I remember the suction cup joysticks.

911
00:49:41,780 --> 00:49:46,780
 I remember her at some point, I was like, be careful, you could die.

912
00:49:46,780 --> 00:49:48,780
 And she was like, no, it's okay.

913
00:49:48,780 --> 00:49:49,780
 I can just hit space bar.

914
00:49:49,780 --> 00:49:51,780
 And I was like, no, no, you really can die.

915
00:49:51,780 --> 00:49:52,780
 Oh my God.

916
00:49:52,780 --> 00:49:53,780
 Yeah.

917
00:49:53,780 --> 00:49:54,780
 That's awesome.

918
00:49:54,780 --> 00:50:02,780
 So that, that was kind of the, my, my first touch point with networks was trying to get

919
00:50:02,780 --> 00:50:03,780
 computers to talk to each other.

920
00:50:03,780 --> 00:50:06,780
 So, you know, I can play with my friends basically.

921
00:50:06,780 --> 00:50:07,780
 Yep.

922
00:50:07,780 --> 00:50:13,780
 And, um, that's in part why I'm just eternally optimistic when it comes to this stuff, because

923
00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:17,780
 I still remember how hard it was to set up a network.

924
00:50:17,780 --> 00:50:18,780
 Yeah.

925
00:50:18,780 --> 00:50:19,780
 Absolutely.

926
00:50:19,780 --> 00:50:22,780
 Your network card will have an IRQ conflict with your sound card and like nothing would

927
00:50:22,780 --> 00:50:29,780
 work or you would touch the, the network card in the back with like the, you would actually

928
00:50:29,780 --> 00:50:31,780
 build token ring networks basically.

929
00:50:31,780 --> 00:50:32,780
 Absolutely.

930
00:50:32,780 --> 00:50:33,780
 Physically.

931
00:50:33,780 --> 00:50:37,780
 And if you walk over a carpet and then go to the computer and touch the network card in

932
00:50:37,780 --> 00:50:40,780
 the wrong way, just the static electricity would fry everything.

933
00:50:40,780 --> 00:50:41,780
 Yeah.

934
00:50:41,780 --> 00:50:45,780
 And it's like, you know, $10,000 mistake.

935
00:50:45,780 --> 00:50:50,780
 So, and now it's, you know, like your phone connects automatically to the wifi that you walk

936
00:50:50,780 --> 00:50:51,780
 by and all those kinds of things.

937
00:50:51,780 --> 00:50:53,780
 Well, that's a, uh, funny.

938
00:50:53,780 --> 00:50:58,780
 You just reminded me that, um, I can't remember which protocol, but there's one that actually

939
00:50:58,780 --> 00:51:00,780
 can run over, uh, barbed wire.

940
00:51:00,780 --> 00:51:01,780
 Oh, okay.

941
00:51:01,780 --> 00:51:02,780
 Yeah.

942
00:51:02,780 --> 00:51:03,780
 Oh, wow.

943
00:51:03,780 --> 00:51:07,780
 Obviously not very fast, but, but back in the day, it was like, uh, it would go so far

944
00:51:07,780 --> 00:51:09,780
 over just straight up barbed wire.

945
00:51:09,780 --> 00:51:10,780
 Nice.

946
00:51:10,780 --> 00:51:11,780
 That's awesome.

947
00:51:11,780 --> 00:51:12,780
 That's awesome.

948
00:51:12,780 --> 00:51:19,780
 So I, to me, the whole mesh network thing is basically, we are back again in the early

949
00:51:19,780 --> 00:51:20,780
 days.

950
00:51:20,780 --> 00:51:21,780
 Yeah.

951
00:51:21,780 --> 00:51:22,780
 And we just have to make it work.

952
00:51:22,780 --> 00:51:23,780
 Yeah.

953
00:51:23,780 --> 00:51:24,780
 And we'll just have to figure it out.

954
00:51:24,780 --> 00:51:25,780
 Yep.

955
00:51:25,780 --> 00:51:27,780
 And, and we did, I mean, that, that's always been my passion is connecting things that were

956
00:51:27,780 --> 00:51:29,780
 never meant to be connected together.

957
00:51:29,780 --> 00:51:32,780
 So it's like having, having this abstraction layer.

958
00:51:32,780 --> 00:51:33,780
 Yeah.

959
00:51:33,780 --> 00:51:34,780
 It's funny.

960
00:51:34,780 --> 00:51:35,780
 Cause it's also, also high level.

961
00:51:35,780 --> 00:51:36,780
 Is that also true?

962
00:51:36,780 --> 00:51:37,780
 Like with music and technology?

963
00:51:37,780 --> 00:51:38,780
 Yeah, absolutely.

964
00:51:38,780 --> 00:51:39,780
 Absolutely.

965
00:51:39,780 --> 00:51:41,780
 It's, it's like something that's always been part of me.

966
00:51:41,780 --> 00:51:48,780
 And I looked at my LinkedIn profile and like after 10 years of just like never looking at

967
00:51:48,780 --> 00:51:49,780
 it.

968
00:51:49,780 --> 00:51:54,780
 And I was literally saying the same things, including like, I want to be on the bleeding edge

969
00:51:54,780 --> 00:51:55,780
 of stuff.

970
00:51:55,780 --> 00:51:58,780
 And as soon as stuff gets easy, I want people to be using it.

971
00:51:58,780 --> 00:51:59,780
 Like I I'm done.

972
00:51:59,780 --> 00:52:00,780
 Like my job is done.

973
00:52:00,780 --> 00:52:02,780
 It loses, it loses the appeal for you.

974
00:52:02,780 --> 00:52:03,780
 Yeah.

975
00:52:03,780 --> 00:52:04,780
 Yeah.

976
00:52:04,780 --> 00:52:05,780
 Yeah.

977
00:52:05,780 --> 00:52:06,780
 But then, then other people can pick it up.

978
00:52:06,780 --> 00:52:09,780
 And I say, I have a morbid fascination with breaking things.

979
00:52:09,780 --> 00:52:10,780
 Yeah.

980
00:52:10,780 --> 00:52:13,780
 We're still definitely in the breaking things phase.

981
00:52:13,780 --> 00:52:17,780
 I mean, yesterday during the workshop, we set up FIPS, right?

982
00:52:17,780 --> 00:52:18,780
 Yeah.

983
00:52:18,780 --> 00:52:21,780
 And to me, it's amazing that the stuff already works.

984
00:52:21,780 --> 00:52:25,780
 Like it's such a new project and it's quite an ingenious idea.

985
00:52:25,780 --> 00:52:27,780
 To me, Noster is still new.

986
00:52:27,780 --> 00:52:32,780
 Like it's, it's, for me, it's fascinating to talk to the people that come to software engineering.

987
00:52:32,780 --> 00:52:37,780
 And it's like always without fail, half the people will be like, yeah, I actually discovered

988
00:52:37,780 --> 00:52:38,780
 Noster before I discovered Bitcoin.

989
00:52:38,780 --> 00:52:39,780
 I was amazed by that.

990
00:52:39,780 --> 00:52:40,780
 And I'm like, what the fuck?

991
00:52:40,780 --> 00:52:41,780
 Yeah.

992
00:52:41,780 --> 00:52:42,780
 What the fuck?

993
00:52:42,780 --> 00:52:43,780
 What's going on?

994
00:52:43,780 --> 00:52:44,780
 Yeah.

995
00:52:44,780 --> 00:52:46,780
 And Noster has only been around for a couple of years now.

996
00:52:46,780 --> 00:52:51,780
 And we have actually people that joined Noster and found it fascinating for some reason.

997
00:52:51,780 --> 00:52:53,780
 And then got orange pulled after that.

998
00:52:53,780 --> 00:52:54,780
 Yeah.

999
00:52:54,780 --> 00:52:56,780
 Their first contact with Bitcoin was via Noster.

1000
00:52:56,780 --> 00:52:59,780
 And to me, that's just fascinating.

1001
00:52:59,780 --> 00:53:02,780
 And I think it will continue to happen with the communities also.

1002
00:53:02,780 --> 00:53:05,780
 You talked about with the homesteading community, for example.

1003
00:53:05,780 --> 00:53:06,780
 Yeah.

1004
00:53:06,780 --> 00:53:11,780
 Where they will discover something like maybe a home server mesh network thing.

1005
00:53:11,780 --> 00:53:14,780
 And then they'll figure out, okay, that actually uses Noster for certain things.

1006
00:53:14,780 --> 00:53:15,780
 Exactly.

1007
00:53:15,780 --> 00:53:19,780
 And then they figured out, oh, those sets that we've been sending around that makes everything

1008
00:53:19,780 --> 00:53:20,780
 work, that's actually Bitcoin.

1009
00:53:20,780 --> 00:53:21,780
 Yeah.

1010
00:53:21,780 --> 00:53:22,780
 So.

1011
00:53:22,780 --> 00:53:23,780
 Precisely.

1012
00:53:23,780 --> 00:53:24,780
 Yeah.

1013
00:53:24,780 --> 00:53:26,780
 And talk to me more about the homesteading community.

1014
00:53:26,780 --> 00:53:34,780
 And basically, how did you start rubbing up against them and what's the current status?

1015
00:53:34,780 --> 00:53:35,780
 Okay.

1016
00:53:35,780 --> 00:53:36,780
 Perfect.

1017
00:53:36,780 --> 00:53:47,780
 So through a good friend of mine at The Bugle, I met a guy who runs Liberty Under Attack books.

1018
00:53:47,780 --> 00:53:51,780
 So it's a book publisher, an anarchist book publisher in the United States.

1019
00:53:51,780 --> 00:53:56,780
 That's a nice tagline.

1020
00:53:56,780 --> 00:53:57,780
 Anarchist book publisher.

1021
00:53:57,780 --> 00:54:00,780
 Or agorist, let's say.

1022
00:54:00,780 --> 00:54:10,780
 But so I met him and so he's got, he's, this was the end of my Bitcoin maximalism day.

1023
00:54:10,780 --> 00:54:11,780
 Okay.

1024
00:54:11,780 --> 00:54:16,780
 So after I started meeting the homesteading communities, I really, like, they were dealing

1025
00:54:16,780 --> 00:54:20,780
 with a whole different set of problems that I was just always like, oh, Bitcoin fixes this.

1026
00:54:20,780 --> 00:54:24,780
 You know, for my second cycle was the maximalist cycle.

1027
00:54:24,780 --> 00:54:25,780
 So my third cycle.

1028
00:54:25,780 --> 00:54:26,780
 Total preaching mode.

1029
00:54:26,780 --> 00:54:27,780
 Yeah.

1030
00:54:27,780 --> 00:54:28,780
 Yeah.

1031
00:54:28,780 --> 00:54:33,780
 The third cycle was more like, okay, wait, Bitcoin doesn't actually, you can't live in

1032
00:54:33,780 --> 00:54:34,780
 a Bitcoin.

1033
00:54:34,780 --> 00:54:37,780
 You can't eat Bitcoin.

1034
00:54:37,780 --> 00:54:45,780
 So, so Rayo2 has something called the Republic of Paznia, which immediately I was like, I know

1035
00:54:45,780 --> 00:54:48,780
 what PAZ is permanent autonomous zone.

1036
00:54:48,780 --> 00:54:49,780
 Okay.

1037
00:54:49,780 --> 00:54:56,780
 Um, so that, so, uh, that kind of, so where did it go from there?

1038
00:54:56,780 --> 00:55:04,780
 So he started inviting me to some of the, the, the different, um, organization meetups type

1039
00:55:04,780 --> 00:55:05,780
 of things.

1040
00:55:05,780 --> 00:55:12,780
 Um, so I went to mid fest in Oklahoma and it was really, really eyeopening.

1041
00:55:12,780 --> 00:55:18,780
 Um, they were all using gold box or Monero or trading among themselves.

1042
00:55:18,780 --> 00:55:22,780
 Um, I learned what all the second realm ideas were.

1043
00:55:22,780 --> 00:55:30,780
 I learned that like, as a libertarian, I was missing all of this other literature out there

1044
00:55:30,780 --> 00:55:36,780
 about agorism, crypto anarchism, that kind of thing, which is really crazy.

1045
00:55:36,780 --> 00:55:43,780
 Cause when I went into the university, like my number one reason that I went to the university

1046
00:55:43,780 --> 00:55:49,780
 that I did is cause I could get a Vax VMS account and at like 16 years old, it's a mainframe.

1047
00:55:49,780 --> 00:55:50,780
 Okay.

1048
00:55:50,780 --> 00:55:53,780
 But basically it was the, it was the first iteration of the internet.

1049
00:55:53,780 --> 00:55:54,780
 Okay.

1050
00:55:54,780 --> 00:55:56,780
 Was all the colleges connected together.

1051
00:55:56,780 --> 00:56:00,780
 Um, that was in 90, 90.

1052
00:56:00,780 --> 00:56:10,780
 Um, so I really like, if, if things had been different, I would have been on all the, the,

1053
00:56:10,780 --> 00:56:13,780
 the cryptography mailing lists and stuff like that.

1054
00:56:13,780 --> 00:56:15,780
 So you were very close.

1055
00:56:15,780 --> 00:56:17,780
 I was very, very close, but just to distract.

1056
00:56:17,780 --> 00:56:20,780
 I mean, I was, but I'm, and now I appreciate that.

1057
00:56:20,780 --> 00:56:25,780
 I, I am, I'm a generalist, um, a randomness, randomist.

1058
00:56:25,780 --> 00:56:28,780
 I, I see everything fitting together.

1059
00:56:28,780 --> 00:56:32,780
 Like I always just, I can't not see how all this could fit together and work.

1060
00:56:32,780 --> 00:56:33,780
 Yeah.

1061
00:56:33,780 --> 00:56:37,780
 Um, and if I had focused on cryptography, I would have just, you know.

1062
00:56:37,780 --> 00:56:38,780
 Yeah.

1063
00:56:38,780 --> 00:56:39,780
 Yeah.

1064
00:56:39,780 --> 00:56:41,780
 You probably would have worked for the government.

1065
00:56:41,780 --> 00:56:42,780
 Yeah.

1066
00:56:42,780 --> 00:56:43,780
 Yeah.

1067
00:56:43,780 --> 00:56:44,780
 Who knows?

1068
00:56:44,780 --> 00:56:45,780
 Who knows?

1069
00:56:45,780 --> 00:56:51,780
 But I, yeah, no, I, I appreciate that about you that I feel like we have, um,

1070
00:56:51,780 --> 00:56:56,780
 there's very few people that let me rephrase that.

1071
00:56:56,780 --> 00:56:57,780
 We have a lot of specialists.

1072
00:56:57,780 --> 00:56:58,780
 Yes.

1073
00:56:58,780 --> 00:56:59,780
 We do have a lot of specialists.

1074
00:56:59,780 --> 00:57:00,780
 Yeah.

1075
00:57:00,780 --> 00:57:01,780
 I appreciate the specialists as well.

1076
00:57:01,780 --> 00:57:02,780
 Oh, absolutely.

1077
00:57:02,780 --> 00:57:03,780
 Let's go up here.

1078
00:57:03,780 --> 00:57:05,780
 We'll be huffing and puffing, but it's worth the view.

1079
00:57:05,780 --> 00:57:11,780
 Um, and you, you definitely need the specialists, but, but I, I, I feel like lots of the specialists

1080
00:57:11,780 --> 00:57:12,780
 to get just lost in the weeds.

1081
00:57:12,780 --> 00:57:13,780
 Yeah.

1082
00:57:13,780 --> 00:57:14,780
 Yeah.

1083
00:57:14,780 --> 00:57:20,780
 And they fail to see the big picture and a side effect of that is also that people just

1084
00:57:20,780 --> 00:57:26,780
 burn out completely because it's like, they have been so close to one subject matter for

1085
00:57:26,780 --> 00:57:29,780
 so long and they don't see the overall progress.

1086
00:57:29,780 --> 00:57:32,780
 And it's like, Oh, it's, I've been working on this for 10 years and it still doesn't work.

1087
00:57:32,780 --> 00:57:33,780
 And it's all bullshit.

1088
00:57:33,780 --> 00:57:38,780
 And they'll just, you know, leave everything behind and build a shed in the woods and start

1089
00:57:38,780 --> 00:57:39,780
 writing a manifesto.

1090
00:57:39,780 --> 00:57:40,780
 Yeah.

1091
00:57:40,780 --> 00:57:43,780
 That's just like, exactly.

1092
00:57:43,780 --> 00:57:45,780
 That's also not the solution.

1093
00:57:45,780 --> 00:57:52,780
 Like the, you know, you have to zoom out from time to time and actually marvel at the fact,

1094
00:57:52,780 --> 00:57:54,780
 like, where did we come from?

1095
00:57:54,780 --> 00:57:55,780
 Where are we now?

1096
00:57:55,780 --> 00:57:57,780
 What is actually working?

1097
00:57:57,780 --> 00:58:03,780
 It's that why, that's why I encourage everyone in Madeira to actually use wallets, maybe even

1098
00:58:03,780 --> 00:58:07,780
 wallets that they haven't used before and just go out, have dinner, buy a coffee.

1099
00:58:07,780 --> 00:58:08,780
 Yeah.

1100
00:58:08,780 --> 00:58:13,780
 You know, rent a car, go to a supermarket that accepts Bitcoin and just pay.

1101
00:58:13,780 --> 00:58:14,780
 Yeah.

1102
00:58:14,780 --> 00:58:18,780
 You can pay with any cash wallet, any lightning wallet.

1103
00:58:18,780 --> 00:58:19,780
 It's all native.

1104
00:58:19,780 --> 00:58:20,780
 It all works.

1105
00:58:20,780 --> 00:58:21,780
 Absolutely.

1106
00:58:21,780 --> 00:58:22,780
 Sells instantly.

1107
00:58:22,780 --> 00:58:23,780
 It's amazing.

1108
00:58:23,780 --> 00:58:24,780
 Yeah.

1109
00:58:24,780 --> 00:58:25,780
 Like 10 years ago.

1110
00:58:25,780 --> 00:58:29,780
 That was like, no one would have believed it when you told them, like in a couple of

1111
00:58:29,780 --> 00:58:30,780
 years, this is going to happen.

1112
00:58:30,780 --> 00:58:31,780
 Absolutely.

1113
00:58:31,780 --> 00:58:36,780
 I told you we were huffing and puffing.

1114
00:58:36,780 --> 00:58:37,780
 This is beautiful.

1115
00:58:37,780 --> 00:58:38,780
 Yeah.

1116
00:58:38,780 --> 00:58:39,780
 It's worth the view.

1117
00:58:39,780 --> 00:58:48,780
 And you know, there's only like five people listening to this and they know that the audio

1118
00:58:48,780 --> 00:58:49,780
 quality is dog shit.

1119
00:58:49,780 --> 00:58:50,780
 good, good.

1120
00:58:50,780 --> 00:58:51,780
 Oh man.

1121
00:58:51,780 --> 00:59:01,780
 My friend, I told my friend in Switzerland that you only had 10 listeners and she said, well,

1122
00:59:01,780 --> 00:59:02,780
 I'm going to make it 11.

1123
00:59:02,780 --> 00:59:03,780
 I don't know.

1124
00:59:03,780 --> 00:59:03,780
 I don't know.

1125
00:59:03,780 --> 00:59:04,780
 I don't know.

1126
00:59:04,780 --> 00:59:05,780
 I don't know.

1127
00:59:05,780 --> 00:59:06,780
 I don't know.

1128
00:59:06,780 --> 00:59:07,780
 But for me, those things are time capsules.

1129
00:59:07,780 --> 00:59:08,780
 Absolutely.

1130
00:59:08,780 --> 00:59:12,780
 I just like, I try to record as much as I can.

1131
00:59:12,780 --> 00:59:16,780
 And sometimes it takes me months to push the things out.

1132
00:59:16,780 --> 00:59:19,780
 I'll try to get better at that.

1133
00:59:19,780 --> 00:59:25,780
 I'm just listening back to what I recorded with Arjen like six months ago.

1134
00:59:25,780 --> 00:59:26,780
 Yeah.

1135
00:59:26,780 --> 00:59:27,780
 And with Pablo a couple of months ago.

1136
00:59:27,780 --> 00:59:29,780
 It's amazing what happened in a couple of months.

1137
00:59:29,780 --> 00:59:30,780
 Yeah.

1138
00:59:30,780 --> 00:59:39,780
 So I'm, I'm a, I'm a bit woo woo and I do believe that speaking things makes them real.

1139
00:59:39,780 --> 00:59:44,780
 Oh, you're talking to the guy that has like 700 tweets about the incidences.

1140
00:59:44,780 --> 00:59:45,780
 There you go.

1141
00:59:45,780 --> 00:59:46,780
 At least.

1142
00:59:46,780 --> 00:59:47,780
 So.

1143
00:59:47,780 --> 00:59:54,780
 And then also, I think that like, I don't know if you're, if you've seen a path to Bitcoin.

1144
00:59:54,780 --> 00:59:55,780
 No.

1145
00:59:55,780 --> 00:59:57,780
 But he talks about.

1146
00:59:57,780 --> 00:59:58,780
 Is that a movie or?

1147
00:59:58,780 --> 00:59:59,780
 It's a podcast.

1148
00:59:59,780 --> 01:00:00,780
 Yeah.

1149
01:00:00,780 --> 01:00:08,780
 He talks about Karl Popper, falsifiability, David Deutsch and the multi-universe theory.

1150
01:00:08,780 --> 01:00:09,780
 Yeah.

1151
01:00:09,780 --> 01:00:16,780
 And how Bitcoin is basically, I was completely against the multi-universe theory.

1152
01:00:16,780 --> 01:00:23,780
 But then I, I heard it in a different way that the longest chain wins.

1153
01:00:23,780 --> 01:00:24,780
 Yeah.

1154
01:00:24,780 --> 01:00:25,780
 Yeah.

1155
01:00:25,780 --> 01:00:27,780
 So, so the other multiverses are just dying off.

1156
01:00:27,780 --> 01:00:28,780
 Yeah.

1157
01:00:28,780 --> 01:00:29,780
 Cause they're there.

1158
01:00:29,780 --> 01:00:30,780
 They don't work.

1159
01:00:30,780 --> 01:00:31,780
 Yeah.

1160
01:00:31,780 --> 01:00:39,780
 And so when you add Bitcoin as our universal source of truth, we are bringing all the universes

1161
01:00:39,780 --> 01:00:40,780
 into one.

1162
01:00:40,780 --> 01:00:41,780
 And I think podcasts are the same thing.

1163
01:00:41,780 --> 01:00:52,780
 Like we are, we are searching for truth.

1164
01:00:52,780 --> 01:00:53,780
 We are recording our truth.

1165
01:00:53,780 --> 01:00:56,780
 We change it over time, but we're not hiding away thinking our own thoughts.

1166
01:00:56,780 --> 01:00:57,780
 Yeah.

1167
01:00:57,780 --> 01:00:58,780
 We're putting them out there.

1168
01:00:58,780 --> 01:00:59,780
 Yeah.

1169
01:00:59,780 --> 01:01:01,780
 And as people listen, this is what makes this reality.

1170
01:01:01,780 --> 01:01:06,780
 I guess what you're saying is, um, like what you're describing is the essence of dialogue.

1171
01:01:06,780 --> 01:01:12,780
 Like you, you need to, you need to explore also the crazy and the wrong thoughts, but over

1172
01:01:12,780 --> 01:01:18,780
 long enough periods of time, all this stuff will fall away and kind of the truth will crystallize.

1173
01:01:18,780 --> 01:01:19,780
 Yeah.

1174
01:01:19,780 --> 01:01:24,780
 Um, uh, you know, like if you, if you actually continue the dialogue and dialogue is allowed

1175
01:01:24,780 --> 01:01:27,780
 to continue, like, again, I bring him up every single time I talk.

1176
01:01:27,780 --> 01:01:29,780
 John Rebecca is my favorite guy.

1177
01:01:29,780 --> 01:01:34,780
 And, and he, he, he came to the same conclusion that he will like his way of phrasing that after

1178
01:01:34,780 --> 01:01:38,780
 like, you know, listening to a hundred hours of lectures of him is like the, the universe

1179
01:01:38,780 --> 01:01:39,780
 itself is dialogical.

1180
01:01:39,780 --> 01:01:40,780
 Yeah.

1181
01:01:40,780 --> 01:01:43,780
 And it's a very esoteric thought, but it's, it's funny that you bring this up because I

1182
01:01:43,780 --> 01:01:49,780
 see this coming up now on the Bitcoin side, the esoteric physics ideas with exactly what

1183
01:01:49,780 --> 01:01:53,780
 you talked about, especially when it comes to the nature of time and kind of the, the

1184
01:01:53,780 --> 01:01:59,780
 there, there, there are interesting similarities in terms of quantum physics and how Bitcoin

1185
01:01:59,780 --> 01:02:03,780
 works with like, um, what is it?

1186
01:02:03,780 --> 01:02:09,780
 Like basically you, you have multiple possibilities and then it collapses into only one and you

1187
01:02:09,780 --> 01:02:10,780
 can't undo that easily.

1188
01:02:10,780 --> 01:02:11,780
 Yes.

1189
01:02:11,780 --> 01:02:12,780
 Like it's the same idea.

1190
01:02:12,780 --> 01:02:16,780
 Basically you can have a reorg one or two blocks deep, which also in quantum systems, you

1191
01:02:16,780 --> 01:02:18,780
 can have reorg, so to speak.

1192
01:02:18,780 --> 01:02:21,780
 Like you can have delayed choice quantum erase experiments and so on.

1193
01:02:21,780 --> 01:02:27,780
 But as the system gets bigger and there's more stuff built up on top of it, that comes

1194
01:02:27,780 --> 01:02:28,780
 exponentially harder.

1195
01:02:28,780 --> 01:02:29,780
 It's the same thing in Bitcoin, right?

1196
01:02:29,780 --> 01:02:33,780
 It's like, it's an, and out of that, the error of time emerges and out of that causality

1197
01:02:33,780 --> 01:02:34,780
 emerges and so on.

1198
01:02:34,780 --> 01:02:40,780
 But if you just look at one Bitcoin block or at one unit of time or at one kind of phase

1199
01:02:40,780 --> 01:02:43,780
 change in the system, that's not necessarily causal yet.

1200
01:02:43,780 --> 01:02:46,780
 You know, like causality and time is something that emerges and so on.

1201
01:02:46,780 --> 01:02:49,780
 Like, I mean, I obviously I wrote about this way back with Bitcoin is time and so on.

1202
01:02:49,780 --> 01:02:50,780
 Yeah.

1203
01:02:50,780 --> 01:02:55,780
 And now this is coming back to the, to the forefront and people are, are like rediscovering that

1204
01:02:55,780 --> 01:02:58,780
 and talking about it and, and actually taking it more seriously.

1205
01:02:58,780 --> 01:03:00,780
 I'm still not sure if I should take it seriously.

1206
01:03:00,780 --> 01:03:05,780
 Like I, I, I was like almost like hyper manic when I wrote all this stuff.

1207
01:03:05,780 --> 01:03:08,780
 And, and I was like, Oh, that's exactly, that's how the universe works.

1208
01:03:08,780 --> 01:03:11,780
 And that's like all, all of that and everything hangs together and so on.

1209
01:03:11,780 --> 01:03:16,780
 Now with a little bit of distance, I'm like, there's definitely interesting similarities,

1210
01:03:16,780 --> 01:03:18,780
 but I have no idea how the universe works.

1211
01:03:18,780 --> 01:03:20,780
 You've inspired lots of, lots of thought on this subject.

1212
01:03:20,780 --> 01:03:25,780
 I mean, like falsibility, falsifiability, like things are really only true until they're

1213
01:03:25,780 --> 01:03:26,780
 falsified.

1214
01:03:26,780 --> 01:03:28,780
 And then once they're falsified, they're never true again.

1215
01:03:28,780 --> 01:03:29,780
 Yeah.

1216
01:03:29,780 --> 01:03:34,780
 It's, it's, it's, and it's also falsifiability is interesting because if you cannot falsify

1217
01:03:34,780 --> 01:03:38,780
 something, it's, it's almost not worth investigating basically.

1218
01:03:38,780 --> 01:03:39,780
 Yeah.

1219
01:03:39,780 --> 01:03:44,780
 It's like, it's like, it's like if, if any, if any answer goes and you can't make any value

1220
01:03:44,780 --> 01:03:49,780
 judgment or a truth judgment about, about it with any experiment whatsoever, then it's

1221
01:03:49,780 --> 01:03:50,780
 like, what are we even talking about?

1222
01:03:50,780 --> 01:03:53,780
 You know, like we're talking about Narnia or, or what have you, you know, like it's the

1223
01:03:53,780 --> 01:03:54,780
 rules of Narnia.

1224
01:03:54,780 --> 01:03:57,780
 It's like, okay, all those kinds of things.

1225
01:03:57,780 --> 01:03:59,780
 But yeah, I just wanted to show you this spot.

1226
01:03:59,780 --> 01:04:04,780
 So that's a, that one of my goals in Madera is like, you see, you see the, the house all

1227
01:04:04,780 --> 01:04:05,780
 the way up in the cliff.

1228
01:04:05,780 --> 01:04:06,780
 Oh yeah.

1229
01:04:06,780 --> 01:04:07,780
 Yeah.

1230
01:04:07,780 --> 01:04:10,780
 I want to, I want to, I want to get to know the person who owns it out and that house

1231
01:04:10,780 --> 01:04:15,780
 has coffee at the, at the window and just look down like a couple of hundred meters.

1232
01:04:15,780 --> 01:04:18,780
 And there's a nice, maybe we can make it with this cord.

1233
01:04:18,780 --> 01:04:22,780
 Um, like a little bit further out or maybe it's even up, up there.

1234
01:04:22,780 --> 01:04:23,780
 I'm not sure.

1235
01:04:23,780 --> 01:04:25,780
 There's a glass floor lookout spot.

1236
01:04:25,780 --> 01:04:26,780
 Wow.

1237
01:04:26,780 --> 01:04:27,780
 It's amazing.

1238
01:04:27,780 --> 01:04:28,780
 It's the highest cliff in Europe.

1239
01:04:28,780 --> 01:04:31,780
 And it's like 380 meters or something.

1240
01:04:31,780 --> 01:04:32,780
 It's like, it goes straight down.

1241
01:04:32,780 --> 01:04:35,780
 Like you'll, it's very weird.

1242
01:04:35,780 --> 01:04:38,780
 It's almost like you're in an airplane and looking down.

1243
01:04:38,780 --> 01:04:39,780
 So yeah, it's, it's, it's very nice.

1244
01:04:39,780 --> 01:04:40,780
 What do you say?

1245
01:04:40,780 --> 01:04:42,780
 We, we make our way back more about it.

1246
01:04:42,780 --> 01:04:43,780
 Yeah.

1247
01:04:43,780 --> 01:04:46,780
 We'll see how long, how much we still have in us.

1248
01:04:46,780 --> 01:04:51,780
 Well, the, the real thing that I would like to talk about and I brought.

1249
01:04:51,780 --> 01:04:52,780
 All right.

1250
01:04:52,780 --> 01:04:53,780
 The warmup is over now.

1251
01:04:53,780 --> 01:04:54,780
 The warmup's over.

1252
01:04:54,780 --> 01:04:55,780
 Let's get into it.

1253
01:04:55,780 --> 01:04:58,780
 The warmup with, uh, Mr. Fox.

1254
01:04:58,780 --> 01:05:06,780
 And when I was trying to come up with an alternative to Airbnb and the other Bitcoin based one.

1255
01:05:06,780 --> 01:05:07,780
 Yeah.

1256
01:05:07,780 --> 01:05:16,780
 I realized that there's, there's something wrong with posting what you have for sale.

1257
01:05:16,780 --> 01:05:19,780
 Inherently you're giving away privacy.

1258
01:05:19,780 --> 01:05:29,780
 Um, if, if I say that I'm renting my couch out and I haven't registered with my local school in Lancaster, then I'm breaking their law.

1259
01:05:29,780 --> 01:05:30,780
 Hmm.

1260
01:05:30,780 --> 01:05:35,780
 So all they would have to do is go look at everyone in, in Lancaster.

1261
01:05:35,780 --> 01:05:38,780
 Who's got a house posted and they do this.

1262
01:05:38,780 --> 01:05:39,780
 They do this with Airbnb.

1263
01:05:39,780 --> 01:05:41,780
 That's how they come and they find you.

1264
01:05:41,780 --> 01:05:43,780
 And they say, you haven't registered your property.

1265
01:05:43,780 --> 01:05:44,780
 You're not paying your taxes.

1266
01:05:44,780 --> 01:05:45,780
 Hmm.

1267
01:05:45,780 --> 01:05:49,780
 They can just, cause we're broadcasting what we have for sale.

1268
01:05:49,780 --> 01:05:50,780
 So basically.

1269
01:05:50,780 --> 01:05:51,780
 What did, what did Silk Road do?

1270
01:05:51,780 --> 01:05:52,780
 Okay.

1271
01:05:52,780 --> 01:05:53,780
 Yeah.

1272
01:05:53,780 --> 01:05:54,780
 Yeah.

1273
01:05:54,780 --> 01:05:55,780
 I see.

1274
01:05:55,780 --> 01:05:58,780
 So, so what you're, what you're saying is basically in some circumstances, you should be careful what you broadcast about.

1275
01:05:58,780 --> 01:06:04,780
 And it's not only what I think is important to point out always is like, it's not only about breaking existing laws.

1276
01:06:04,780 --> 01:06:08,780
 It's just like, okay, let's say you're in the U S and the administration changes.

1277
01:06:08,780 --> 01:06:09,780
 Absolutely.

1278
01:06:09,780 --> 01:06:16,780
 And what you posted a month ago is now illegal or those kinds of things, you know, and, and so you want to be careful about what you advertise to the world is what you're saying.

1279
01:06:16,780 --> 01:06:17,780
 But what this, yes.

1280
01:06:17,780 --> 01:06:30,780
 But what this made me think about is like, I, like my daughter goes onto Facebook marketplace to look for a lamp and she ends up buying a rug and a chair because she's just bombarded with all these things that are making her want them.

1281
01:06:30,780 --> 01:06:38,780
 If she was able to say, put out a blob on Noster that says, I'm looking for a lamp in a general location.

1282
01:06:38,780 --> 01:06:39,780
 Ah, so you want to reverse it.

1283
01:06:39,780 --> 01:06:40,780
 I want to reverse it.

1284
01:06:40,780 --> 01:06:41,780
 Okay.

1285
01:06:41,780 --> 01:06:51,780
 So, and then anybody who's selling a lamp, an antique shop, whatever, they can run an agent that's looking for these encrypted blobs on Noster that fit within their parameters.

1286
01:06:51,780 --> 01:06:58,780
 So they might, if, if their lamps are $500, they're not going to respond to my daughter who's looking for a $30 lamp.

1287
01:06:58,780 --> 01:06:59,780
 Yeah, I see.

1288
01:06:59,780 --> 01:07:10,780
 But everybody who is, has a lamp for sale, they could say, anybody in the area looking for lamps between $10 and $50, give me a notification.

1289
01:07:10,780 --> 01:07:22,780
 And then she's already posted what her budget is for the lamp to say $30, then they come back and they say, oh, I've got a lamp for $20 and a picture of the lamp.

1290
01:07:22,780 --> 01:07:25,780
 And then she says, that looks amazing.

1291
01:07:25,780 --> 01:07:30,780
 And then they can negotiate the price, sign a message between both of them.

1292
01:07:30,780 --> 01:07:33,780
 Now the lamp seller can reveal their address.

1293
01:07:33,780 --> 01:07:35,780
 She reveals her end pub.

1294
01:07:35,780 --> 01:07:36,780
 They can have a chat.

1295
01:07:36,780 --> 01:07:38,780
 They can say, I'll meet you tomorrow.

1296
01:07:38,780 --> 01:07:44,780
 And then if she doesn't like the lamp, you know, that you break the contract, the escrow goes back to her.

1297
01:07:44,780 --> 01:07:49,780
 If she does like the lamp, she scans a QR code and the money goes to the lamp seller.

1298
01:07:49,780 --> 01:07:50,780
 I see.

1299
01:07:50,780 --> 01:08:06,780
 So that's a, that's a similar idea with lots of the handshakes, so to speak, that we have in the encrypted communication and mesh network world, where basically the sender, the sender only reveals information after the handshake completed successfully.

1300
01:08:06,780 --> 01:08:07,780
 The same idea, right?

1301
01:08:07,780 --> 01:08:08,780
 Yes.

1302
01:08:08,780 --> 01:08:09,780
 Yeah.

1303
01:08:09,780 --> 01:08:10,780
 Okay.

1304
01:08:10,780 --> 01:08:11,780
 No, I got it.

1305
01:08:11,780 --> 01:08:18,780
 So flip the whole, we want to demand based economy, like where I say I'm going, I'm coming to Madeira for three weeks.

1306
01:08:18,780 --> 01:08:21,780
 I have a 800 euro budget for a place to stay.

1307
01:08:21,780 --> 01:08:22,780
 Yeah.

1308
01:08:22,780 --> 01:08:23,780
 Salespeople will hate it, by the way.

1309
01:08:23,780 --> 01:08:24,780
 I know.

1310
01:08:24,780 --> 01:08:25,780
 They always try to sell you things that you don't need.

1311
01:08:25,780 --> 01:08:26,780
 I know.

1312
01:08:26,780 --> 01:08:27,780
 Yeah, exactly.

1313
01:08:27,780 --> 01:08:31,780
 But it just, it flips the whole thing around and I think it makes it a lot more human.

1314
01:08:31,780 --> 01:08:34,780
 I mean, I'm looking for a dozen eggs.

1315
01:08:34,780 --> 01:08:42,780
 You might get three people respond to your ask and then you pick one that's closer to you or more reputable.

1316
01:08:42,780 --> 01:08:44,780
 I want to play devil's advocate for a second.

1317
01:08:44,780 --> 01:08:45,780
 Please, please.

1318
01:08:45,780 --> 01:08:52,780
 Because you mentioned before that also you're a, I hadn't heard this word before, so if I butcher it, I'm sorry, but a random mist or something.

1319
01:08:52,780 --> 01:08:53,780
 Oh, yeah.

1320
01:08:53,780 --> 01:08:55,780
 I got that from, that's what Zaza says.

1321
01:08:55,780 --> 01:09:09,780
 But I, like, I really like that because part of the, like, to be devil's advocate against your ideas, like sometimes you don't even really know what you're looking for.

1322
01:09:09,780 --> 01:09:10,780
 Sure.

1323
01:09:10,780 --> 01:09:11,780
 And browsing really helps.

1324
01:09:11,780 --> 01:09:12,780
 Yeah.

1325
01:09:12,780 --> 01:09:15,780
 And then you'll find something even better, even though it wasn't a thing that you wanted.

1326
01:09:15,780 --> 01:09:17,780
 Like, going to a library, this often happens.

1327
01:09:17,780 --> 01:09:18,780
 Absolutely.

1328
01:09:18,780 --> 01:09:19,780
 You're looking for a book.

1329
01:09:19,780 --> 01:09:20,780
 Yep.

1330
01:09:20,780 --> 01:09:21,780
 And you want, you're that focused on this particular book.

1331
01:09:21,780 --> 01:09:28,780
 And then you go to the library and, like, you're browsing through the section and then you find three other books that are way more interesting.

1332
01:09:28,780 --> 01:09:29,780
 Absolutely.

1333
01:09:29,780 --> 01:09:30,780
 On the topic.

1334
01:09:30,780 --> 01:09:33,780
 And my wake up thought this morning was about art.

1335
01:09:33,780 --> 01:09:35,780
 I mean, like, you can't say, I'm looking for art.

1336
01:09:35,780 --> 01:09:36,780
 Exactly.

1337
01:09:36,780 --> 01:09:37,780
 Yeah.

1338
01:09:37,780 --> 01:09:38,780
 I want this piece exactly.

1339
01:09:38,780 --> 01:09:39,780
 Yeah.

1340
01:09:39,780 --> 01:09:40,780
 I want it to speak to me.

1341
01:09:40,780 --> 01:09:41,780
 Yeah.

1342
01:09:41,780 --> 01:09:48,780
 But you might say, I'm looking for someone to make me a piece the size to go in my lounge or something like that.

1343
01:09:48,780 --> 01:09:53,780
 So there, there is a place for it, but, but ultimately with art, you want to be able to browse.

1344
01:09:53,780 --> 01:09:59,780
 Um, and, uh, yeah, so, so I, I completely, I think there needs to be both.

1345
01:09:59,780 --> 01:10:01,780
 And we've got the plebeian market conduit.

1346
01:10:01,780 --> 01:10:05,780
 I mean, we got them all to use compatible protocols.

1347
01:10:05,780 --> 01:10:06,780
 Yeah.

1348
01:10:06,780 --> 01:10:07,780
 So you can go browse.

1349
01:10:07,780 --> 01:10:20,780
 And now like if, if, if somebody wants to put up a site for like handmade clothing, they can go filter all of those items that are for sale and they can just show you handmade clothing.

1350
01:10:20,780 --> 01:10:21,780
 Yeah.

1351
01:10:21,780 --> 01:10:29,780
 And that can be, now you can go out to, you know, more normies and stuff like that and say like, oh, look, it's a female friendly shopping site for clothes.

1352
01:10:29,780 --> 01:10:39,780
 I think that's always kind of the, uh, uh, the same idea in some sense that what we have right now is if you want to get handmade stuff, you go to Etsy or something.

1353
01:10:39,780 --> 01:10:40,780
 Yeah.

1354
01:10:40,780 --> 01:10:45,780
 So everything, what you're describing already exists, but it's all in siloed, centralized platforms.

1355
01:10:45,780 --> 01:10:50,780
 And if you look, people put the same thing on Etsy, eBay, then they have to manage inventory.

1356
01:10:50,780 --> 01:10:51,780
 Exactly.

1357
01:10:51,780 --> 01:10:52,780
 Yeah.

1358
01:10:52,780 --> 01:10:53,780
 That was my big thing with the sellers.

1359
01:10:53,780 --> 01:10:59,780
 It was like, if you guys don't make a common protocol, then we're going to be back to the same thing where I'm going to plebeian market.

1360
01:10:59,780 --> 01:11:00,780
 Yeah.

1361
01:11:00,780 --> 01:11:01,780
 I'm going to conduit.

1362
01:11:01,780 --> 01:11:03,780
 I'm posting the same thing multiple times.

1363
01:11:03,780 --> 01:11:10,780
 And I think on Nostar, this is currently emerging, not on the marketplace side yet, because I think it's still way too small.

1364
01:11:10,780 --> 01:11:11,780
 Yeah.

1365
01:11:11,780 --> 01:11:15,780
 Like you just mentioned, you know, like there's plebeian market and there's like two, two other, there's shopster and so on.

1366
01:11:15,780 --> 01:11:16,780
 Shopster, yeah.

1367
01:11:16,780 --> 01:11:20,780
 And, and, and like, that's, it's literally like three people working on this stuff.

1368
01:11:20,780 --> 01:11:21,780
 Yeah.

1369
01:11:21,780 --> 01:11:22,780
 Basically, you know what I mean?

1370
01:11:22,780 --> 01:11:26,780
 It's very, very, very small and, and, and just the markets themselves are very small.

1371
01:11:26,780 --> 01:11:27,780
 Yeah.

1372
01:11:27,780 --> 01:11:31,780
 And that's basically where Nostar was like, I don't know, like three and a half years ago or so.

1373
01:11:31,780 --> 01:11:44,780
 And now we see it emerging that we have an ecosystem of clients and they have their own quirky view on the whole Nostar ecosystem.

1374
01:11:44,780 --> 01:11:45,780
 Right?

1375
01:11:45,780 --> 01:11:46,780
 Yeah.

1376
01:11:46,780 --> 01:11:48,780
 Like some clients only focus on certain relays.

1377
01:11:48,780 --> 01:11:49,780
 Yeah.

1378
01:11:49,780 --> 01:11:51,780
 Some clients only focus on long form.

1379
01:11:51,780 --> 01:11:58,780
 Some clients only focus on like even certain types of kind one notes, you know, and so on and so forth.

1380
01:11:58,780 --> 01:12:04,780
 And, uh, so your vision is that the same will happen on their marketplace side between buyers and sellers.

1381
01:12:04,780 --> 01:12:05,780
 Yeah.

1382
01:12:05,780 --> 01:12:06,780
 Okay.

1383
01:12:06,780 --> 01:12:07,780
 That's interesting.

1384
01:12:07,780 --> 01:12:11,780
 How does it hang together with, um, Archipelago if at all?

1385
01:12:11,780 --> 01:12:16,780
 Um, um, I'm not sure.

1386
01:12:16,780 --> 01:12:17,780
 Not sure.

1387
01:12:17,780 --> 01:12:18,780
 Yeah.

1388
01:12:18,780 --> 01:12:19,780
 Because I'm sure it can.

1389
01:12:19,780 --> 01:12:33,780
 What I'm thinking is like, if you, if you provide node infrastructure to, for example, homesteading communities, you can run, you know, like your local market on the same infrastructure, basically.

1390
01:12:33,780 --> 01:12:34,780
 Yes.

1391
01:12:34,780 --> 01:12:35,780
 In some sense.

1392
01:12:35,780 --> 01:12:37,780
 And then you have to, of course, come in person and pick it up or whatever.

1393
01:12:37,780 --> 01:12:51,780
 But that's, that's definitely something I can see emerging where you just have your, um, your local community and you have your local bullet import and your local communication infrastructure, all those kinds of things.

1394
01:12:51,780 --> 01:12:54,780
 And there might be a little, you know, market stall.

1395
01:12:54,780 --> 01:12:55,780
 Yeah.

1396
01:12:55,780 --> 01:12:57,780
 Embedded in that as well, where people can advertise.

1397
01:12:57,780 --> 01:13:02,780
 Well, that, yeah, there, there, there definitely will be an inside of the community version of it.

1398
01:13:02,780 --> 01:13:04,780
 But, um, but no, this was, this is all new.

1399
01:13:04,780 --> 01:13:07,780
 So I'm just like talking to people and flushing it out.

1400
01:13:07,780 --> 01:13:08,780
 No, that's awesome.

1401
01:13:08,780 --> 01:13:16,780
 I mean, that's also the, again, like that's the whole idea of sovereign engineering is to get these ideas out there and talk about them and just brainstorm how this could work.

1402
01:13:16,780 --> 01:13:33,780
 So if you were a grocery store, like every 12 pack of beer you sell, you could put out a blob that you're looking for a 12 pack of beer and then you're building up enough inventory that it's worth somebody going and grabbing the things and bringing them to you.

1403
01:13:33,780 --> 01:13:34,780
 I see.

1404
01:13:34,780 --> 01:13:35,780
 I see.

1405
01:13:35,780 --> 01:13:36,780
 Yeah.

1406
01:13:36,780 --> 01:13:40,780
 No, it's definitely interesting ideas, but just purely an ask, ask based economy.

1407
01:13:40,780 --> 01:13:41,780
 Yeah.

1408
01:13:41,780 --> 01:13:42,780
 Yeah.

1409
01:13:42,780 --> 01:13:43,780
 Yeah.

1410
01:13:43,780 --> 01:13:57,780
 I think, like you said, I think we definitely need both and both approaches are useful, but in terms of flipping things around to me, it was always interesting that that's exactly what Noster does.

1411
01:13:57,780 --> 01:13:58,780
 Yeah.

1412
01:13:58,780 --> 01:14:06,780
 It flips the whole communication infrastructure, broadcasting infrastructure around in the sense that you don't have to rely on a Twitter.

1413
01:14:06,780 --> 01:14:07,780
 Yeah.

1414
01:14:07,780 --> 01:14:08,780
 You don't have to rely on any server.

1415
01:14:08,780 --> 01:14:16,780
 It's just like the notes, like the kind one notes or whatever, they speak, the signed information speaks for itself because it's cryptographically signed.

1416
01:14:16,780 --> 01:14:17,780
 Yep.

1417
01:14:17,780 --> 01:14:19,780
 And that enables you to flip everything around.

1418
01:14:19,780 --> 01:14:20,780
 Yeah.

1419
01:14:20,780 --> 01:14:33,780
 And I think, you know, with the building blocks we have now, especially around, you know, how easy it is now to build webs of trust and with the pre-existing webs of trust, you can definitely do interesting things.

1420
01:14:33,780 --> 01:14:41,780
 I would be curious to hear a little bit more about Archipelago in terms of what's the, what can it currently do?

1421
01:14:41,780 --> 01:14:42,780
 What's the vision?

1422
01:14:42,780 --> 01:14:46,780
 How can people, you know, check it out and use it?

1423
01:14:46,780 --> 01:14:53,780
 And like, what's the current state and what's, what do you have in store for the next six to 12 months?

1424
01:14:53,780 --> 01:14:54,780
 Yeah.

1425
01:14:54,780 --> 01:14:59,780
 Oh, and also talk to me about the South by Southwest, South by Southwest launch.

1426
01:14:59,780 --> 01:15:00,780
 Yeah.

1427
01:15:00,780 --> 01:15:01,780
 Yeah.

1428
01:15:01,780 --> 01:15:05,780
 So the, so the, the, the main piece we're working on now is the, I don't know if you saw it.

1429
01:15:05,780 --> 01:15:16,780
 I brought the 13 inch framework laptop then, but put it, put that in a nice case, plug your TV into it and you can start using it as a dashboard for your house.

1430
01:15:16,780 --> 01:15:20,780
 So you've got, um, and you mentioned that that's already lined up.

1431
01:15:20,780 --> 01:15:22,780
 Like the framework people are working with you, right?

1432
01:15:22,780 --> 01:15:23,780
 Yeah.

1433
01:15:23,780 --> 01:15:26,780
 No, I mean right now we're just buying stuff from them, but I've, I've reached out there.

1434
01:15:26,780 --> 01:15:27,780
 It seemed hard to get to.

1435
01:15:27,780 --> 01:15:28,780
 Okay.

1436
01:15:28,780 --> 01:15:29,780
 Okay.

1437
01:15:29,780 --> 01:15:31,780
 But, um, but I think it's the right hardware to put this thing on.

1438
01:15:31,780 --> 01:15:32,780
 Yeah.

1439
01:15:32,780 --> 01:15:40,780
 I love the framework idea of just having modularized upgradeable stuff that doesn't automatically break after two years.

1440
01:15:40,780 --> 01:15:41,780
 Yeah.

1441
01:15:41,780 --> 01:15:42,780
 Yeah.

1442
01:15:42,780 --> 01:15:44,780
 So like, like if, like we have, we'll have a nice case for it.

1443
01:15:44,780 --> 01:15:48,780
 So yeah, three years down the road, you just take that motherboard output in a new motherboard.

1444
01:15:48,780 --> 01:15:52,780
 Um, but the basic unit plugs into the TV.

1445
01:15:52,780 --> 01:16:01,780
 Um, we've got a companion app that literally like controls the archipelago, or you can use a, we've got a little wireless gamepad keyboard that works with it.

1446
01:16:01,780 --> 01:16:06,780
 Um, and our first major partner is Indie Hub.

1447
01:16:06,780 --> 01:16:13,780
 So what you'll be able to do is plug in archipelago, watch movies on day one.

1448
01:16:13,780 --> 01:16:18,780
 Um, it'll also run all the normal services that you would get off the start nine or an umbral.

1449
01:16:18,780 --> 01:16:20,780
 How did the movie thing come together?

1450
01:16:20,780 --> 01:16:23,780
 Because that's not, that's not any like regular movies.

1451
01:16:23,780 --> 01:16:24,780
 What kind of movies are we talking?

1452
01:16:24,780 --> 01:16:26,780
 Oh, they're independent films.

1453
01:16:26,780 --> 01:16:28,780
 It's all about independent films.

1454
01:16:28,780 --> 01:16:31,780
 So, um, Avi Burra puts his finding home on there.

1455
01:16:31,780 --> 01:16:34,780
 Um, Alana's got dirty coin on there.

1456
01:16:34,780 --> 01:16:37,780
 Uh, thank God for Bitcoin is on there.

1457
01:16:37,780 --> 01:16:40,780
 Like it's, it's, it's, it's Bitcoiner related content.

1458
01:16:40,780 --> 01:16:41,780
 Yeah.

1459
01:16:41,780 --> 01:16:50,780
 But, um, ultimately it will be as a director or producer, you log into Indie Hub and you can upload your movie there.

1460
01:16:50,780 --> 01:16:54,780
 You can go in anytime, change how much you're charging for it.

1461
01:16:54,780 --> 01:16:55,780
 Yeah.

1462
01:16:55,780 --> 01:16:57,780
 So you could say like, I just launched this.

1463
01:16:57,780 --> 01:17:02,780
 It's going to be free for two weeks and then it's going to be 21,000 sats for the next six months.

1464
01:17:02,780 --> 01:17:05,780
 And then every six months it cuts in half.

1465
01:17:05,780 --> 01:17:09,780
 You know, you can do all that as a, as the producer or director.

1466
01:17:09,780 --> 01:17:19,780
 Um, and then, so how did that, uh, so I met, I met Zach at, uh, Las Vegas last year.

1467
01:17:19,780 --> 01:17:28,780
 Um, and we just have been talking over time and it's interesting cause he's, he comes from a film background.

1468
01:17:28,780 --> 01:17:36,780
 So he was really interested in like, how do we protect the cap table and the investors and all this kind of stuff.

1469
01:17:36,780 --> 01:17:51,780
 But what he has come to, as he spent more time with us, uh, maybe we radicalized them a little bit, but now he's ready for it to be a completely open platform and decentralized, fully decentralized.

1470
01:17:51,780 --> 01:17:59,780
 So you could upload any content you want, um, people can flag content based on your web of trust.

1471
01:17:59,780 --> 01:18:04,780
 You might trust certain people or, or you just, you stick with like, like a Nostra, you've got fire hose.

1472
01:18:04,780 --> 01:18:05,780
 Yeah.

1473
01:18:05,780 --> 01:18:06,780
 Same thing.

1474
01:18:06,780 --> 01:18:07,780
 Like, yeah.

1475
01:18:07,780 --> 01:18:19,780
 Um, but then when I watch a movie, I download it to my node and then everyone else who watches it starts torrenting it from the people who have, who have watched it and they get paid.

1476
01:18:19,780 --> 01:18:21,780
 Um, as the data provider.

1477
01:18:21,780 --> 01:18:25,780
 So the distribution mechanism is a plain old torrents basically.

1478
01:18:25,780 --> 01:18:26,780
 Yep.

1479
01:18:26,780 --> 01:18:28,780
 Um, with more sophisticated things on top.

1480
01:18:28,780 --> 01:18:29,780
 Yep.

1481
01:18:29,780 --> 01:18:30,780
 Yeah.

1482
01:18:30,780 --> 01:18:31,780
 No, that's really cool.

1483
01:18:31,780 --> 01:18:41,780
 I'm still, um, I mean, that's, it seems to be a recurring theme in all the cohorts that, um, there is out of 21 people, there's always at least one person that wants to make torrents great again.

1484
01:18:41,780 --> 01:18:42,780
 Nice.

1485
01:18:42,780 --> 01:18:44,780
 I love torrents.

1486
01:18:44,780 --> 01:18:47,780
 Because it's, it's fantastic technology and it works really well.

1487
01:18:47,780 --> 01:18:55,780
 It's just, uh, yeah, I, um, in some sense pirate bay got a lot of things right.

1488
01:18:55,780 --> 01:19:01,780
 Uh, they obviously were up against, you know, like an incredibly powerful enemy, so to speak.

1489
01:19:01,780 --> 01:19:02,780
 Oh yeah.

1490
01:19:02,780 --> 01:19:03,780
 Oh yeah.

1491
01:19:03,780 --> 01:19:17,780
 And, and, um, but what I mean with, what they got right is very decentralized, very censorship resistant, very hard to take, take down.

1492
01:19:17,780 --> 01:19:20,780
 I mean, all the founders were in jail for a while.

1493
01:19:20,780 --> 01:19:22,780
 Pirate Bay was up all the way through.

1494
01:19:22,780 --> 01:19:23,780
 Yeah.

1495
01:19:23,780 --> 01:19:24,780
 So that tells you something.

1496
01:19:24,780 --> 01:19:27,780
 Um, and also they had baked in reputation.

1497
01:19:27,780 --> 01:19:33,780
 They had baked in, you know, like social comments and so on and all those kinds of things.

1498
01:19:33,780 --> 01:19:45,780
 And there's all kinds of stuff from pirate Bay, but there was a way to use it without having, you know, like Trojan spyware on your computer at all times.

1499
01:19:45,780 --> 01:19:55,780
 You know, like it's, it's the, the kind of reputation and social part and, and kind of web of trust part, very primitive web of trust part really worked.

1500
01:19:55,780 --> 01:19:56,780
 Yeah.

1501
01:19:56,780 --> 01:20:06,780
 And it's, to me, it's just amazing that we see this now on Nostar and my feed in Nostar, I very, very rarely see stuff that I don't like.

1502
01:20:06,780 --> 01:20:07,780
 Yeah.

1503
01:20:07,780 --> 01:20:10,780
 Like most outrageous, like war or porn or whatever.

1504
01:20:10,780 --> 01:20:11,780
 It's like, it's all filtered out.

1505
01:20:11,780 --> 01:20:12,780
 Yeah.

1506
01:20:12,780 --> 01:20:18,780
 And the same for like SAP store, for example, you'll have to talk to me about that as well, but just to finish the train.

1507
01:20:18,780 --> 01:20:19,780
 Yeah.

1508
01:20:19,780 --> 01:20:20,780
 Yeah.

1509
01:20:20,780 --> 01:20:22,780
 SAP store is my main app store.

1510
01:20:22,780 --> 01:20:24,780
 It has been for almost a year now.

1511
01:20:24,780 --> 01:20:25,780
 Same.

1512
01:20:25,780 --> 01:20:26,780
 It works.

1513
01:20:26,780 --> 01:20:27,780
 If it's, if it's not on that store, I don't get it.

1514
01:20:27,780 --> 01:20:28,780
 Exactly.

1515
01:20:28,780 --> 01:20:29,780
 Exactly.

1516
01:20:29,780 --> 01:20:33,780
 And, and, and that just shows you it works fairly well.

1517
01:20:33,780 --> 01:20:34,780
 Yeah.

1518
01:20:34,780 --> 01:20:35,780
 Like my phone didn't get wrecked once.

1519
01:20:35,780 --> 01:20:36,780
 Yeah.

1520
01:20:36,780 --> 01:20:37,780
 And I kind of, I know what I'm doing.

1521
01:20:37,780 --> 01:20:40,780
 I know the people that I'm installing stuff from and so on.

1522
01:20:40,780 --> 01:20:48,780
 And we're at a point now where SAP store also supports, um, Git installs just like, uh, Optaneum does.

1523
01:20:48,780 --> 01:20:51,780
 And so I don't have a use for any other app store anymore.

1524
01:20:51,780 --> 01:20:52,780
 Absolutely.

1525
01:20:52,780 --> 01:20:54,780
 I know I'm a, you know, like I'm an outlier.

1526
01:20:54,780 --> 01:20:55,780
 Yeah.

1527
01:20:55,780 --> 01:20:56,780
 Yeah.

1528
01:20:56,780 --> 01:20:58,780
 Well aware, but it's just amazing that how far we've come.

1529
01:20:58,780 --> 01:21:04,780
 And I saw on the archipelago node, uh, very similar to umbrella and start nine, right?

1530
01:21:04,780 --> 01:21:05,780
 You have an, an app store as well.

1531
01:21:05,780 --> 01:21:06,780
 Right.

1532
01:21:06,780 --> 01:21:07,780
 Like talk to me more about that.

1533
01:21:07,780 --> 01:21:08,780
 And what's your, what's your thoughts on that?

1534
01:21:08,780 --> 01:21:09,780
 Yeah.

1535
01:21:09,780 --> 01:21:12,780
 Our, our goal for the app store is it to be exactly like that store.

1536
01:21:12,780 --> 01:21:17,780
 So that, um, anything you install on your node, it, it talks to your web of trust.

1537
01:21:17,780 --> 01:21:20,780
 You've got different people, I mean, attributing to it.

1538
01:21:20,780 --> 01:21:23,780
 And, um, and that's where you get your apps from.

1539
01:21:23,780 --> 01:21:38,780
 And, uh, one, one of the main criticisms of, of SAP store, uh, for the longest time now was that it basically, they were, um, very restrictive in terms of the, the sources and, uh, like who can put apps into SAP store and so on.

1540
01:21:38,780 --> 01:21:39,780
 Yeah.

1541
01:21:39,780 --> 01:21:44,780
 Um, they made some bigger steps towards, um, making that more open.

1542
01:21:44,780 --> 01:21:57,780
 Like, uh, you're selecting your own relay and, and, um, basically very similar to like package managers where you can have community sources and you just point your thing to a community server and then you can install all kinds of stuff.

1543
01:21:57,780 --> 01:22:02,780
 So, um, is, is that in the works for your system as well?

1544
01:22:02,780 --> 01:22:03,780
 Something, something along those lines?

1545
01:22:03,780 --> 01:22:04,780
 Yeah.

1546
01:22:04,780 --> 01:22:06,780
 And as well, I would like it to be distributed.

1547
01:22:06,780 --> 01:22:19,780
 And I think, um, if you, if you don't want to pay like 50 sats to download an app, I mean, there might be stuff for free that somebody wants to host and wants to promote you running, but I think it should be able to be, uh, monetized.

1548
01:22:19,780 --> 01:22:20,780
 Yeah.

1549
01:22:20,780 --> 01:22:21,780
 Yeah.

1550
01:22:21,780 --> 01:22:27,780
 You, you, you, you mentioned before with the, the, the music question that value for value is the way to go.

1551
01:22:27,780 --> 01:22:30,780
 And I think that's definitely true for this stuff as well.

1552
01:22:30,780 --> 01:22:35,780
 I don't really believe in paywalls and making stuff artificially restricted.

1553
01:22:35,780 --> 01:22:36,780
 Yeah.

1554
01:22:36,780 --> 01:22:38,780
 But what I do believe in and SAP store actually does as well.

1555
01:22:38,780 --> 01:22:43,780
 It's like, if you used it, if you really liked it, make it extremely easy to give back.

1556
01:22:43,780 --> 01:22:44,780
 Yeah.

1557
01:22:44,780 --> 01:22:50,780
 Like if I find an app that's incredibly useful for me, like I'm happy to pay whatever, you know, 20 bucks, 50 bucks.

1558
01:22:50,780 --> 01:22:51,780
 Absolutely.

1559
01:22:51,780 --> 01:22:55,780
 And, and just like, you know, like one click and, oh my God, thank you for building this.

1560
01:22:55,780 --> 01:22:56,780
 I always wanted to have something like that.

1561
01:22:56,780 --> 01:22:57,780
 Yeah.

1562
01:22:57,780 --> 01:23:08,780
 And, and you know, like I'm a small fish that I think the reason why value for value works is, let me, let me tell a little story.

1563
01:23:08,780 --> 01:23:13,780
 I convinced, um, a German friend of mine, he did a film about Bitcoin as well to go full on value for value.

1564
01:23:13,780 --> 01:23:16,780
 He wanted to put stuff behind the paywall and so on.

1565
01:23:16,780 --> 01:23:17,780
 Yeah.

1566
01:23:17,780 --> 01:23:25,780
 And I talked to him for like weeks and, and finally convinced him to just, just get it all out in the open and make the ask really prevalent.

1567
01:23:25,780 --> 01:23:27,780
 It's like, you know, like it costs a lot to produce this film.

1568
01:23:27,780 --> 01:23:28,780
 Yep.

1569
01:23:28,780 --> 01:23:30,780
 Um, if you enjoyed it, please give back.

1570
01:23:30,780 --> 01:23:31,780
 And many people did.

1571
01:23:31,780 --> 01:23:40,780
 But the, the reason I think why value for value works is because if you have a thousand people giving back, one person out of the thousand will give a lot.

1572
01:23:40,780 --> 01:23:41,780
 Yeah.

1573
01:23:41,780 --> 01:23:45,780
 And that's, it's like a, a beyond Pareto distribution.

1574
01:23:45,780 --> 01:23:46,780
 Yep.

1575
01:23:46,780 --> 01:23:47,780
 Absolutely.

1576
01:23:47,780 --> 01:23:48,780
 And that, that's exactly what happened to him.

1577
01:23:48,780 --> 01:23:50,780
 I don't know how many people gave back.

1578
01:23:50,780 --> 01:23:54,780
 I, I assume it, it was like a close to a thousand or something like that, like the ballpark.

1579
01:23:54,780 --> 01:23:58,780
 But there was one guy who gave like 1.5 Bitfuck.

1580
01:23:58,780 --> 01:23:59,780
 Wow.

1581
01:23:59,780 --> 01:24:01,780
 And that's like, it paid for the whole film.

1582
01:24:01,780 --> 01:24:02,780
 Yeah.

1583
01:24:02,780 --> 01:24:03,780
 Paid for everything.

1584
01:24:03,780 --> 01:24:06,780
 He probably made more than if he would have put it behind some weird paywall or whatever.

1585
01:24:06,780 --> 01:24:07,780
 Yeah.

1586
01:24:07,780 --> 01:24:08,780
 Because no one would watch it, you know?

1587
01:24:08,780 --> 01:24:09,780
 Yeah.

1588
01:24:09,780 --> 01:24:13,780
 Like if you add friction to getting your stuff out there, then it will just stay behind the paywall.

1589
01:24:13,780 --> 01:24:14,780
 Yeah.

1590
01:24:14,780 --> 01:24:15,780
 That's, that's.

1591
01:24:15,780 --> 01:24:22,780
 Well, I think that's the beautiful thing about Indie Hub is now that we've got taste, we whitelist end pubs as, as tastemakers, people who really know movies.

1592
01:24:22,780 --> 01:24:24,780
 So you can look at their recommendations.

1593
01:24:24,780 --> 01:24:29,780
 But also the whole thing is I mentioned the directors log in or the producers to upload their movie.

1594
01:24:29,780 --> 01:24:32,780
 But we also have the whole funding cycle built in.

1595
01:24:32,780 --> 01:24:40,780
 So the same thing, like we, we tie in with Angor, you know, the, the month, the movie is funded on Angor and you've got the whole flywheel.

1596
01:24:40,780 --> 01:24:41,780
 Yeah.

1597
01:24:41,780 --> 01:24:45,780
 And people, if they like a movie, they might like, they want to invest in that director's next movie.

1598
01:24:45,780 --> 01:24:46,780
 Yeah.

1599
01:24:46,780 --> 01:24:47,780
 Yeah.

1600
01:24:47,780 --> 01:24:48,780
 Yeah.

1601
01:24:48,780 --> 01:24:49,780
 Yeah.

1602
01:24:49,780 --> 01:24:50,780
 Yeah.

1603
01:24:50,780 --> 01:24:51,780
 Yeah.

1604
01:24:51,780 --> 01:24:52,780
 No, that's awesome.

1605
01:24:52,780 --> 01:24:53,780
 That's awesome.

1606
01:24:53,780 --> 01:24:54,780
 And that's, I feel like that's happening all over the place.

1607
01:24:54,780 --> 01:24:56,780
 Like we're, I mean, we're a niche of a niche, right?

1608
01:24:56,780 --> 01:24:57,780
 Oh yeah.

1609
01:24:57,780 --> 01:24:58,780
 Totally.

1610
01:24:58,780 --> 01:25:08,780
 But like open collective and those kinds of things, it's, it's the same idea where you have like nonprofits and other entities that just like everything is completely out in the open and you can give and you can see where the money flows and so on.

1611
01:25:08,780 --> 01:25:19,780
 Very similar idea to, you know, SAP splits and having just transparent splits for, you know, like, I mean, one cool thing on the podcasting 2.0 side is the streaming money side, right?

1612
01:25:19,780 --> 01:25:20,780
 Yeah.

1613
01:25:20,780 --> 01:25:25,780
 And just have transparent SAP splits and just, you know, stream by the minute, stream sets by the minute.

1614
01:25:25,780 --> 01:25:26,780
 Yeah.

1615
01:25:26,780 --> 01:25:37,780
 And yeah, we actually have someone working on doing the same for data transfers and for APIs, like, you know, nano sets, streaming nano sets by the millisecond basically.

1616
01:25:37,780 --> 01:25:39,780
 Well, and the, and the chunking blossom server.

1617
01:25:39,780 --> 01:25:40,780
 Yeah.

1618
01:25:40,780 --> 01:25:41,780
 Yeah.

1619
01:25:41,780 --> 01:25:42,780
 Yeah.

1620
01:25:42,780 --> 01:25:43,780
 I mean, that requires, you know, like fancy stuff.

1621
01:25:43,780 --> 01:25:46,780
 Uh, uh, I know nothing about it, but Spillman channels, right?

1622
01:25:46,780 --> 01:25:47,780
 Yeah.

1623
01:25:47,780 --> 01:25:55,780
 Like all these kinds of things where if you, if you go down to these like millisat and microsat amounts, like lightning breaks down, it doesn't work at all.

1624
01:25:55,780 --> 01:25:56,780
 Yeah.

1625
01:25:56,780 --> 01:26:03,780
 You have to use different things, but it's cool to see all this emerging and who knows where we are in five years from now, right?

1626
01:26:03,780 --> 01:26:05,780
 Like all this stuff might work beautifully.

1627
01:26:05,780 --> 01:26:06,780
 Yeah.

1628
01:26:06,780 --> 01:26:13,780
 It's still amazing to me that with the podcasting 2.0 movement, there's lots of podcasts that are value enabled.

1629
01:26:13,780 --> 01:26:14,780
 Yeah.

1630
01:26:14,780 --> 01:26:15,780
 There's lots of money flowing through the system.

1631
01:26:15,780 --> 01:26:16,780
 Oh yeah.

1632
01:26:16,780 --> 01:26:21,780
 I wouldn't have guessed that when it started happening because it was like a hack on top of a hack.

1633
01:26:21,780 --> 01:26:23,780
 Oh, you know, like it was, yeah.

1634
01:26:23,780 --> 01:26:28,780
 Just key sending sets to node IDs and the whole shebang.

1635
01:26:28,780 --> 01:26:31,780
 And now, now we're getting somewhere, you know, like this stuff is really working.

1636
01:26:31,780 --> 01:26:40,780
 Well, web of trust is, um, I, I only reached, so now that I'm more into the algorithm and stuff like that, um, people were writing about web of trust in the seventies.

1637
01:26:40,780 --> 01:26:41,780
 Yeah.

1638
01:26:41,780 --> 01:26:46,780
 Like this was the only thing missing and it's been missing forever.

1639
01:26:46,780 --> 01:26:47,780
 Yeah.

1640
01:26:47,780 --> 01:26:48,780
 And like real web of trust.

1641
01:26:48,780 --> 01:26:49,780
 To be fair.

1642
01:26:49,780 --> 01:26:53,780
 I think actually that's one of the killer features of Noster.

1643
01:26:53,780 --> 01:26:54,780
 Yeah.

1644
01:26:54,780 --> 01:26:55,780
 Yep.

1645
01:26:55,780 --> 01:26:56,780
 Because PGP signing parties.

1646
01:26:56,780 --> 01:26:57,780
 Yep.

1647
01:26:57,780 --> 01:26:58,780
 Never caught on.

1648
01:26:58,780 --> 01:26:59,780
 Yep.

1649
01:26:59,780 --> 01:27:00,780
 I was there.

1650
01:27:00,780 --> 01:27:04,780
 I mean, I would, I mean, the whole P I was, I lived through the whole PGP fiasco and everything.

1651
01:27:04,780 --> 01:27:05,780
 And then nobody used it.

1652
01:27:05,780 --> 01:27:06,780
 Yeah.

1653
01:27:06,780 --> 01:27:11,780
 And then at my last job, which was, uh, international finance, we were using PGP.

1654
01:27:11,780 --> 01:27:12,780
 Interesting.

1655
01:27:12,780 --> 01:27:13,780
 Yeah.

1656
01:27:13,780 --> 01:27:14,780
 Yeah.

1657
01:27:14,780 --> 01:27:16,780
 That was after the financial crisis and all that.

1658
01:27:16,780 --> 01:27:18,780
 Why, why were you using PGP?

1659
01:27:18,780 --> 01:27:23,780
 Um, it's, it's been, it's been, uh, standard, uh, when you're, uh, sharing sensitive information.

1660
01:27:23,780 --> 01:27:24,780
 Interesting.

1661
01:27:24,780 --> 01:27:25,780
 I didn't know that.

1662
01:27:25,780 --> 01:27:28,780
 You request their pub key, you sign it and then you send them the packet.

1663
01:27:28,780 --> 01:27:30,780
 And then you know that they're the only person who can decrypt it.

1664
01:27:30,780 --> 01:27:31,780
 Okay.

1665
01:27:31,780 --> 01:27:32,780
 Oh, wow.

1666
01:27:32,780 --> 01:27:33,780
 Yeah.

1667
01:27:33,780 --> 01:27:34,780
 I'm surprised.

1668
01:27:34,780 --> 01:27:35,780
 Yeah.

1669
01:27:35,780 --> 01:27:36,780
 The Fiat world keeps surprising.

1670
01:27:36,780 --> 01:27:37,780
 Oh yeah.

1671
01:27:37,780 --> 01:27:38,780
 Yeah.

1672
01:27:38,780 --> 01:27:41,780
 It just, I mean, it just takes a long while for this stuff to be understood and, but it still

1673
01:27:41,780 --> 01:27:42,780
 sucks.

1674
01:27:42,780 --> 01:27:43,780
 It's still absolutely sucks.

1675
01:27:43,780 --> 01:27:48,780
 I mean, compare that now with what we have right now, like white noise, MLS.

1676
01:27:48,780 --> 01:27:54,780
 Pika, all those kinds of things are great examples where, um, we are basically at a point

1677
01:27:54,780 --> 01:27:57,780
 now where I can use Noster to look up my contacts.

1678
01:27:57,780 --> 01:27:58,780
 Yeah.

1679
01:27:58,780 --> 01:27:59,780
 That's very easy.

1680
01:27:59,780 --> 01:28:00,780
 Like that part is basically soft.

1681
01:28:00,780 --> 01:28:01,780
 Yeah.

1682
01:28:01,780 --> 01:28:03,780
 You know, like I just, it's, it, it doesn't matter.

1683
01:28:03,780 --> 01:28:04,780
 I want to call Justin.

1684
01:28:04,780 --> 01:28:05,780
 It's very easy.

1685
01:28:05,780 --> 01:28:08,780
 Like I, I, I, I have him already in my web of trust.

1686
01:28:08,780 --> 01:28:09,780
 I look him up and so on.

1687
01:28:09,780 --> 01:28:13,780
 And then we use something else to do a handshake, like exactly like MLS.

1688
01:28:13,780 --> 01:28:18,780
 Like that's what you, the flow you basically described from the, the financial people that

1689
01:28:18,780 --> 01:28:21,780
 using PGP, we're doing the same thing.

1690
01:28:21,780 --> 01:28:24,780
 Just like, like 30 years more modern.

1691
01:28:24,780 --> 01:28:25,780
 Yeah.

1692
01:28:25,780 --> 01:28:32,780
 And then you actually have a signal level, signal level encryption standard and you use Noster,

1693
01:28:32,780 --> 01:28:35,780
 your Noster web of trust to do the handshake.

1694
01:28:35,780 --> 01:28:36,780
 Exactly.

1695
01:28:36,780 --> 01:28:38,780
 The same for phone calls and video calls and all those kinds of things.

1696
01:28:38,780 --> 01:28:39,780
 Yep.

1697
01:28:39,780 --> 01:28:41,780
 Like that's, that's starting to work now.

1698
01:28:41,780 --> 01:28:42,780
 Yeah.

1699
01:28:42,780 --> 01:28:43,780
 Yeah.

1700
01:28:43,780 --> 01:28:49,780
 Like the, the, the underlying technology that makes white noise work, MLS and again, like

1701
01:28:49,780 --> 01:28:51,780
 just to build PECA on top of that.

1702
01:28:51,780 --> 01:28:52,780
 It really works.

1703
01:28:52,780 --> 01:28:53,780
 Yeah.

1704
01:28:53,780 --> 01:28:54,780
 It's, it really works.

1705
01:28:54,780 --> 01:28:55,780
 It's the right approach.

1706
01:28:55,780 --> 01:29:00,780
 And yes, it's all still alpha basically, you know, like expect rough edges.

1707
01:29:00,780 --> 01:29:01,780
 Oh yeah.

1708
01:29:01,780 --> 01:29:06,780
 But in a couple of years from now, this will just basically be the default as far as I'm

1709
01:29:06,780 --> 01:29:07,780
 concerned.

1710
01:29:07,780 --> 01:29:10,780
 Noster clicked for me right away after having grown up with PGP.

1711
01:29:10,780 --> 01:29:15,780
 And it was just like, oh my God, this is like, everyone stopped using PGP cause it was just

1712
01:29:15,780 --> 01:29:16,780
 too hard.

1713
01:29:16,780 --> 01:29:21,780
 And also just for regular stuff on, on the mesh network and, and, and node world, you know,

1714
01:29:21,780 --> 01:29:26,780
 like I have a setup already where I, um, I mean, I keep going on about this.

1715
01:29:26,780 --> 01:29:31,780
 I have multiple machines and they all use sync thing to synchronize certain folders between

1716
01:29:31,780 --> 01:29:32,780
 each other.

1717
01:29:32,780 --> 01:29:34,780
 And it's so incredibly useful.

1718
01:29:34,780 --> 01:29:39,780
 And just like on, in the node world, like every, we saw this by the way.

1719
01:29:39,780 --> 01:29:43,780
 Uh, Marty, Marty Malmi, he showed off a Noster VPN.

1720
01:29:43,780 --> 01:29:44,780
 Yeah.

1721
01:29:44,780 --> 01:29:45,780
 And it's the same idea, right?

1722
01:29:45,780 --> 01:29:48,780
 Like every device has an Nop.

1723
01:29:48,780 --> 01:29:49,780
 Yep.

1724
01:29:49,780 --> 01:29:54,780
 And so it's very easy to connect devices because you just connect to an Nop.

1725
01:29:54,780 --> 01:29:55,780
 Yeah.

1726
01:29:55,780 --> 01:30:00,780
 And you just scan a QR code or you just, you know, like it's, it's, it's how we find each

1727
01:30:00,780 --> 01:30:05,780
 other on Noster is how the devices find each other in this network.

1728
01:30:05,780 --> 01:30:06,780
 Exactly.

1729
01:30:06,780 --> 01:30:10,780
 And then you can build your own VPN and all your devices tunnel through the same exit node.

1730
01:30:10,780 --> 01:30:11,780
 Yep.

1731
01:30:11,780 --> 01:30:13,780
 And of course you can invite your friends to that as well.

1732
01:30:13,780 --> 01:30:14,780
 And so on.

1733
01:30:14,780 --> 01:30:15,780
 And I think that's the right idea.

1734
01:30:15,780 --> 01:30:16,780
 Yeah.

1735
01:30:16,780 --> 01:30:21,780
 And you're for Archipelago, for example, as well, you know, like it's a no brainer that the devices,

1736
01:30:21,780 --> 01:30:24,780
 I think for you it's, um, uh, DIDs, right?

1737
01:30:24,780 --> 01:30:29,780
 So we generate from 24 words, we generate the DID and the NPUB and the Bitcoin address.

1738
01:30:29,780 --> 01:30:30,780
 Yeah.

1739
01:30:30,780 --> 01:30:31,780
 Yeah.

1740
01:30:31,780 --> 01:30:33,780
 So you have, but we're just playing with stuff, but that's the current model.

1741
01:30:33,780 --> 01:30:34,780
 Yeah.

1742
01:30:34,780 --> 01:30:38,780
 You have a cryptographic identity and from the base of the cryptographic identity, you can derive

1743
01:30:38,780 --> 01:30:39,780
 more identities and so on.

1744
01:30:39,780 --> 01:30:40,780
 Yeah.

1745
01:30:40,780 --> 01:30:44,780
 And if you need to do file sharing, if you want to install apps from other devices, if

1746
01:30:44,780 --> 01:30:49,780
 you do whatever, you know, that's, that's the, that's the lookup part.

1747
01:30:49,780 --> 01:30:51,780
 That's, that's how you, that's how you find each other.

1748
01:30:51,780 --> 01:30:54,780
 And there's even a button like discover nodes on Noster.

1749
01:30:54,780 --> 01:30:55,780
 Exactly.

1750
01:30:55,780 --> 01:30:56,780
 Yeah.

1751
01:30:56,780 --> 01:30:57,780
 Yeah.

1752
01:30:57,780 --> 01:30:58,780
 And I think, I think that's the right approach.

1753
01:30:58,780 --> 01:31:00,780
 I think that's the right, the right level of abstraction.

1754
01:31:00,780 --> 01:31:04,780
 And yeah, you can do a lot of like with the primitives we have now, you just can't

1755
01:31:04,780 --> 01:31:05,780
 do a lot of stuff.

1756
01:31:05,780 --> 01:31:06,780
 Yeah.

1757
01:31:06,780 --> 01:31:07,780
 So, so that's.

1758
01:31:07,780 --> 01:31:08,780
 Yeah.

1759
01:31:08,780 --> 01:31:13,780
 And I think back to the marketplace, the encrypted state machines that, that Jesus worked on

1760
01:31:13,780 --> 01:31:16,780
 are, I mean, that is like, that's that piece.

1761
01:31:16,780 --> 01:31:17,780
 Yeah.

1762
01:31:17,780 --> 01:31:19,780
 I mean, it's you, I can ship packages.

1763
01:31:19,780 --> 01:31:22,780
 I can pick up riders on a ride share app.

1764
01:31:22,780 --> 01:31:23,780
 I can sell things online.

1765
01:31:23,780 --> 01:31:26,780
 Like it all wraps up in the encrypted state machines.

1766
01:31:26,780 --> 01:31:27,780
 Yeah.

1767
01:31:27,780 --> 01:31:28,780
 I have to look into that some more.

1768
01:31:28,780 --> 01:31:31,780
 I mean, Jesus is always cooking up new things.

1769
01:31:31,780 --> 01:31:36,780
 When he, when he, when he came up with Context VM.

1770
01:31:36,780 --> 01:31:39,780
 It took me like a week to wrap my head around it.

1771
01:31:39,780 --> 01:31:43,780
 But it's really cool that the, that the project is, is flourishing from, from what I can tell.

1772
01:31:43,780 --> 01:31:44,780
 Absolutely.

1773
01:31:44,780 --> 01:31:49,780
 And it's a similar idea where it's just like, you know, you, you, you need to tap into some

1774
01:31:49,780 --> 01:31:54,780
 external compute or you need to tap into some external database or those kinds of things.

1775
01:31:54,780 --> 01:31:57,780
 You just have a very simple protocol that can make all that work.

1776
01:31:57,780 --> 01:32:01,780
 And you use Noster as the lookup and coordination layer and all those kinds of things.

1777
01:32:01,780 --> 01:32:02,780
 Yeah.

1778
01:32:02,780 --> 01:32:03,780
 Yeah.

1779
01:32:03,780 --> 01:32:04,780
 That's really cool.

1780
01:32:04,780 --> 01:32:05,780
 So our archipelago.

1781
01:32:05,780 --> 01:32:14,780
 So, um, the, the initial idea is that you've got archipelago home, which is the base one I said, but then we've got community, uh, additions.

1782
01:32:14,780 --> 01:32:17,780
 So when you install it, it's like a choose your own adventure thing.

1783
01:32:17,780 --> 01:32:18,780
 It's like, what are you trying to do?

1784
01:32:18,780 --> 01:32:19,780
 Are you trying to run a business?

1785
01:32:19,780 --> 01:32:21,780
 Are you trying to run a web store?

1786
01:32:21,780 --> 01:32:26,780
 Are you trying, is this just for your home for sovereign, for sovereign, uh, identity and all that.

1787
01:32:26,780 --> 01:32:37,780
 Um, but then also I want to do one, uh, archipelago auto, which basically either you're on a scooter, you're in a car, you bring the node with you.

1788
01:32:37,780 --> 01:32:38,780
 Interesting.

1789
01:32:38,780 --> 01:32:40,780
 It's got built in mesh networks.

1790
01:32:40,780 --> 01:32:41,780
 So.

1791
01:32:41,780 --> 01:32:43,780
 Starlink got the same idea, right?

1792
01:32:43,780 --> 01:32:44,780
 For people with boats.

1793
01:32:44,780 --> 01:32:45,780
 Yeah.

1794
01:32:45,780 --> 01:32:46,780
 Yeah.

1795
01:32:46,780 --> 01:32:47,780
 Campers.

1796
01:32:47,780 --> 01:32:48,780
 But you, you drive around.

1797
01:32:48,780 --> 01:32:50,780
 I mean, you, you're pinging all the other people in your area.

1798
01:32:50,780 --> 01:32:52,780
 Um, you can choose whether to share your location.

1799
01:32:52,780 --> 01:32:55,780
 So if you're coming to pick somebody up, you turn on location sharing.

1800
01:32:55,780 --> 01:32:58,780
 Now they can see that you're almost there.

1801
01:32:58,780 --> 01:33:08,780
 Um, also like we could be like, like mesh network is not super fast, but like at some point, like I could be like, Oh, I'm, I'm driving from Austin to Kansas city.

1802
01:33:08,780 --> 01:33:10,780
 I could pick up data.

1803
01:33:10,780 --> 01:33:11,780
 Oh yeah.

1804
01:33:11,780 --> 01:33:12,780
 Yeah.

1805
01:33:12,780 --> 01:33:13,780
 Take a four terabyte.

1806
01:33:13,780 --> 01:33:17,780
 I was just about to say, depending on the size of the data, that's still the fastest way.

1807
01:33:17,780 --> 01:33:18,780
 Yeah.

1808
01:33:18,780 --> 01:33:19,780
 Yeah.

1809
01:33:19,780 --> 01:33:20,780
 Sneakernet.

1810
01:33:20,780 --> 01:33:21,780
 Yeah.

1811
01:33:21,780 --> 01:33:22,780
 That's awesome.

1812
01:33:22,780 --> 01:33:23,780
 That's awesome.

1813
01:33:23,780 --> 01:33:28,780
 I mean, uh, yeah, you obviously have a, have a grand, uh, vision, vision for this thing.

1814
01:33:28,780 --> 01:33:31,780
 Uh, but let me, let me ask you something else entirely.

1815
01:33:31,780 --> 01:33:32,780
 Yeah.

1816
01:33:32,780 --> 01:33:37,780
 How, how come you're here at some of engineering and how were the first three days for you?

1817
01:33:37,780 --> 01:33:38,780
 Oh, wow.

1818
01:33:38,780 --> 01:33:39,780
 How come I'm here?

1819
01:33:39,780 --> 01:33:41,780
 Um, like what made you sign up?

1820
01:33:41,780 --> 01:33:44,780
 It's always, it's still weird to me that people are actually coming.

1821
01:33:44,780 --> 01:33:45,780
 Yeah.

1822
01:33:45,780 --> 01:33:48,780
 Like there's nothing in it for you except for meeting people basically.

1823
01:33:48,780 --> 01:34:02,780
 So, um, this is when y'all announced hardware and alternative internet, this was the piece that I knew we could do, but nobody had really focused it on it in kind of the right ways.

1824
01:34:02,780 --> 01:34:08,780
 And I was like, I, I'm not a programmer, but I want to be in the middle of this.

1825
01:34:08,780 --> 01:34:10,780
 I want to be helping to steer it.

1826
01:34:10,780 --> 01:34:13,780
 But then ultimately I want to be able to fund projects.

1827
01:34:13,780 --> 01:34:18,780
 I want to, I, I need routes, routester for private AI.

1828
01:34:18,780 --> 01:34:19,780
 Yeah.

1829
01:34:19,780 --> 01:34:21,780
 Like I want to support routester.

1830
01:34:21,780 --> 01:34:33,780
 I want to integrate it into archipelago and I want to encourage everybody who's working on freedom tech to take this open approach, openness and interoperability first.

1831
01:34:33,780 --> 01:34:41,780
 And so, um, so like with, uh, with ridester and drivester and the, a guy in Manchester that's working on trotter.

1832
01:34:41,780 --> 01:34:43,780
 We have to work on our naming, by the way.

1833
01:34:43,780 --> 01:34:44,780
 Yeah, I know.

1834
01:34:44,780 --> 01:34:47,780
 But they, but they were, they, they weren't using the same primitives.

1835
01:34:47,780 --> 01:34:48,780
 Yeah.

1836
01:34:48,780 --> 01:34:49,780
 So they were inoperability.

1837
01:34:49,780 --> 01:34:52,780
 There was an inter, there was no interoperability.

1838
01:34:52,780 --> 01:34:57,780
 So I showed them the A to B protocol that I wrote with Jesus.

1839
01:34:57,780 --> 01:35:01,780
 They both were, with AI, they were both able to refactor their packages.

1840
01:35:01,780 --> 01:35:02,780
 Ah, nice.

1841
01:35:02,780 --> 01:35:03,780
 Like within a day.

1842
01:35:03,780 --> 01:35:04,780
 Yeah, that's awesome.

1843
01:35:04,780 --> 01:35:05,780
 And then they were interoperable.

1844
01:35:05,780 --> 01:35:06,780
 That's awesome.

1845
01:35:06,780 --> 01:35:07,780
 That's a big benefit.

1846
01:35:07,780 --> 01:35:11,780
 It's, it's, uh, you know, AI if used in the right way and used carefully.

1847
01:35:11,780 --> 01:35:15,780
 It's a, it's an, an absolute blessing for the stuff we're doing.

1848
01:35:15,780 --> 01:35:16,780
 Yeah.

1849
01:35:16,780 --> 01:35:18,780
 And then the guy in the UK that's doing trotter.

1850
01:35:18,780 --> 01:35:24,780
 I mean, he wants all the services, a locksmith ride sharing, like all these to run on Noster.

1851
01:35:24,780 --> 01:35:26,780
 And it's all using the same protocols.

1852
01:35:26,780 --> 01:35:33,780
 Now the encrypted state machines, you can make requests, you get, uh, responses, you make agreements and you get work done.

1853
01:35:33,780 --> 01:35:34,780
 Awesome.

1854
01:35:34,780 --> 01:35:35,780
 Awesome.

1855
01:35:35,780 --> 01:35:41,780
 Yeah, no, that's, uh, so, so the hardware and network part is in your opinion still lacking.

1856
01:35:41,780 --> 01:35:46,780
 And that's why you signed up and you were like, okay, I want to, I want to meet other crazy machine.

1857
01:35:46,780 --> 01:35:47,780
 Absolutely.

1858
01:35:47,780 --> 01:35:48,780
 Yeah.

1859
01:35:48,780 --> 01:35:51,780
 And I, and I, and I try and fund projects as much as I can.

1860
01:35:51,780 --> 01:35:53,780
 I mean, I'm like, this needs to happen.

1861
01:35:53,780 --> 01:35:54,780
 Like who can do it?

1862
01:35:54,780 --> 01:35:57,780
 Like, and so that's how I got Jesus.

1863
01:35:57,780 --> 01:36:06,780
 Um, and the same with the, with the, like, I can't make payable torrents, but there are people here who can.

1864
01:36:06,780 --> 01:36:07,780
 Yeah.

1865
01:36:07,780 --> 01:36:08,780
 Yeah.

1866
01:36:08,780 --> 01:36:09,780
 Yeah.

1867
01:36:09,780 --> 01:36:10,780
 So, yeah, absolutely.

1868
01:36:10,780 --> 01:36:11,780
 And how, how was it for you the first couple of days?

1869
01:36:11,780 --> 01:36:13,780
 Did you know what you got yourself into beforehand?

1870
01:36:13,780 --> 01:36:17,780
 No, I honestly didn't even read the handbook until the night before.

1871
01:36:17,780 --> 01:36:31,780
 Um, and it, it, I would say it's been the one of the, it's been probably the most, I mean, I literally said to my wife, this was like, this has been the most incredible experience I've ever had in my life.

1872
01:36:31,780 --> 01:36:45,780
 Um, it's also been, some of the most, I know, some of the most exhausting mentally, physically, socially, um, it's, it's just constant overwhelm.

1873
01:36:45,780 --> 01:36:46,780
 Yes.

1874
01:36:46,780 --> 01:36:48,780
 Um, and, and I, for me as well.

1875
01:36:48,780 --> 01:36:49,780
 Yeah.

1876
01:36:49,780 --> 01:36:50,780
 Okay.

1877
01:36:50,780 --> 01:36:51,780
 Good.

1878
01:36:51,780 --> 01:36:52,780
 Yeah.

1879
01:36:52,780 --> 01:36:53,780
 Yeah.

1880
01:36:53,780 --> 01:36:54,780
 No, it's my, it's, it's the seventh cohort.

1881
01:36:54,780 --> 01:36:55,780
 So it's obviously my seventh cohort.

1882
01:36:55,780 --> 01:36:56,780
 Yeah.

1883
01:36:56,780 --> 01:37:00,780
 And it's still like, that's why I mentioned on the first day, every single time sovereign engineering happens, I'm very, very close to burnout always.

1884
01:37:00,780 --> 01:37:01,780
 Yeah.

1885
01:37:01,780 --> 01:37:06,780
 And it is because exactly because of that, because you're just, your brain is just in a constant overload.

1886
01:37:06,780 --> 01:37:07,780
 Yeah.

1887
01:37:07,780 --> 01:37:19,780
 Because for, for, for some reason there's, you know, like there's people are coming and they are all, they're all on fire and they all have like a million ideas and they're all amazing people.

1888
01:37:19,780 --> 01:37:29,780
 You know, it's, it's, it's like, again, I, I just have to, the, the caliber of people that are here, every single cohort, it's just amazing.

1889
01:37:29,780 --> 01:37:30,780
 Yeah.

1890
01:37:30,780 --> 01:37:33,780
 Like I mentioned, like we have Marky mommy here and the stuff he's working on.

1891
01:37:33,780 --> 01:37:35,780
 I, half of the things I can't comprehend.

1892
01:37:35,780 --> 01:37:36,780
 Oh, absolutely.

1893
01:37:36,780 --> 01:37:37,780
 Absolutely.

1894
01:37:37,780 --> 01:37:38,780
 Absolutely.

1895
01:37:38,780 --> 01:37:55,780
 And it's, yeah, it's just, and out of these kinds of demos and out of these kinds of very technical things, I think the exhausting part is because of the mix of people, it kind of goes up and down the stack and you go from very big picture to nitty gritty details all the time.

1896
01:37:55,780 --> 01:37:56,780
 Yeah.

1897
01:37:56,780 --> 01:37:57,780
 Like 25 times in an hour.

1898
01:37:57,780 --> 01:37:58,780
 Yeah.

1899
01:37:58,780 --> 01:38:00,780
 And you do it like, you know, 10 hours a day.

1900
01:38:00,780 --> 01:38:01,780
 High frequency.

1901
01:38:01,780 --> 01:38:04,780
 And so, so it is very exhausting.

1902
01:38:04,780 --> 01:38:08,780
 That's why, you know, like we, we try to make room for breaks and for days off.

1903
01:38:08,780 --> 01:38:09,780
 No, it's really fabulous.

1904
01:38:09,780 --> 01:38:15,780
 And, and so I, I moved to Lancaster kind of thinking, Oh, I'm just going to chill out.

1905
01:38:15,780 --> 01:38:19,780
 You know, I've got my, my Bitcoin stack, et cetera, et cetera.

1906
01:38:19,780 --> 01:38:20,780
 And, but I, I thrive on this.

1907
01:38:20,780 --> 01:38:23,780
 You wanted to retire basically is what you're saying.

1908
01:38:23,780 --> 01:38:24,780
 I thought I wanted to retire.

1909
01:38:24,780 --> 01:38:26,780
 Join, join the Amish and retire.

1910
01:38:26,780 --> 01:38:27,780
 Yeah.

1911
01:38:27,780 --> 01:38:28,780
 Live a peaceful life.

1912
01:38:28,780 --> 01:38:29,780
 But I, I can't do it.

1913
01:38:29,780 --> 01:38:36,780
 Like immediately I was like driving to other meetups and then I would be flying to check on the ranch in Oklahoma, the beef ranch.

1914
01:38:36,780 --> 01:38:39,780
 And then I'm like, okay, this is, I give up.

1915
01:38:39,780 --> 01:38:41,780
 It turns out retirement is very boring.

1916
01:38:41,780 --> 01:38:42,780
 It is.

1917
01:38:42,780 --> 01:38:43,780
 Like people need to do stuff.

1918
01:38:43,780 --> 01:38:44,780
 Yeah.

1919
01:38:44,780 --> 01:38:49,780
 That's just, you know, like not only can you just do things, you also, you should just do things.

1920
01:38:49,780 --> 01:38:50,780
 Yeah.

1921
01:38:50,780 --> 01:38:51,780
 Absolutely.

1922
01:38:51,780 --> 01:38:52,780
 Absolutely.

1923
01:38:52,780 --> 01:38:55,780
 So what's your, what's your goal for, for, for these three weeks?

1924
01:38:55,780 --> 01:39:01,780
 What do you kind of best case, what, what should emerge from this cohort?

1925
01:39:01,780 --> 01:39:04,780
 What's your dream tech, dream things that should come out of here?

1926
01:39:04,780 --> 01:39:05,780
 Yeah.

1927
01:39:05,780 --> 01:39:12,780
 I want a clear direction on the next steps for the alternate internet.

1928
01:39:12,780 --> 01:39:13,780
 Like, like what are practical things?

1929
01:39:13,780 --> 01:39:19,780
 So I mentioned joining the Agris communities, like they're totally into all the same things.

1930
01:39:19,780 --> 01:39:24,780
 Like everybody needs alternative means of communication and data transmission.

1931
01:39:24,780 --> 01:39:25,780
 They're also really.

1932
01:39:25,780 --> 01:39:26,780
 Whether they know it or not.

1933
01:39:26,780 --> 01:39:27,780
 Yeah.

1934
01:39:27,780 --> 01:39:28,780
 Well, these guys know it.

1935
01:39:28,780 --> 01:39:30,780
 I mean, so like we've got the PASNIA department of technology.

1936
01:39:30,780 --> 01:39:33,780
 I'm the head of the PASNIA department of transportation.

1937
01:39:33,780 --> 01:39:34,780
 Right.

1938
01:39:34,780 --> 01:39:40,780
 Um, but we, we, this is, this, this, we, we need to have a clear direction so people can

1939
01:39:40,780 --> 01:39:48,780
 start focusing money, time, energy into things that we've kind of flushed out that we're like,

1940
01:39:48,780 --> 01:39:51,780
 this is, this looks like the path forward for now.

1941
01:39:51,780 --> 01:39:52,780
 And then get something.

1942
01:39:52,780 --> 01:39:56,780
 And then get something so we can actually in small communities.

1943
01:39:56,780 --> 01:39:59,780
 So Madeira, you've got a community server in Madeira.

1944
01:39:59,780 --> 01:40:01,780
 You've got Fetty guardians.

1945
01:40:01,780 --> 01:40:05,780
 You've got people using ride share apps over Bitcoin.

1946
01:40:05,780 --> 01:40:07,780
 Um, this is the perfect place to do it.

1947
01:40:07,780 --> 01:40:09,780
 And that's what I talked to Mr. Fox about.

1948
01:40:09,780 --> 01:40:10,780
 All right.

1949
01:40:10,780 --> 01:40:11,780
 For four fricking hours last night.

1950
01:40:11,780 --> 01:40:12,780
 Awesome.

1951
01:40:12,780 --> 01:40:13,780
 Awesome.

1952
01:40:13,780 --> 01:40:18,780
 Yeah, no, I think it's, it's definitely, you know, like there, there are certain hotspots

1953
01:40:18,780 --> 01:40:25,780
 in the world where it, where the things you're sketching out can actually work.

1954
01:40:25,780 --> 01:40:26,780
 Absolutely.

1955
01:40:26,780 --> 01:40:27,780
 Because you have the right mix of people.

1956
01:40:27,780 --> 01:40:28,780
 It's small enough.

1957
01:40:28,780 --> 01:40:33,780
 It's like you have existing communities already that you can tap into and, and all these kinds

1958
01:40:33,780 --> 01:40:38,780
 of things, but then immediately bringing in remote communities, like say like, well, how

1959
01:40:38,780 --> 01:40:42,780
 do we, how do we get like beef from the cattle ranch into the city?

1960
01:40:42,780 --> 01:40:46,780
 How do we coordinate between these, these three meetups?

1961
01:40:46,780 --> 01:40:50,780
 Because once you coordinate between three Bitcoin meetups that if one, if the next one

1962
01:40:50,780 --> 01:40:54,780
 over is coordinating between three Bitcoin meetups, you've got the whole mesh.

1963
01:40:54,780 --> 01:40:55,780
 Yeah.

1964
01:40:55,780 --> 01:40:56,780
 Yeah.

1965
01:40:56,780 --> 01:40:57,780
 Yeah.

1966
01:40:57,780 --> 01:41:01,780
 It's, yeah, it's not going to be an easy task and it's going to take a little while, but

1967
01:41:01,780 --> 01:41:07,780
 that's why I was so excited to talk to you because you're on the forefront and my, like

1968
01:41:07,780 --> 01:41:13,780
 I have very high hopes for the homesteading and other adjacent communities.

1969
01:41:13,780 --> 01:41:14,780
 Yeah.

1970
01:41:14,780 --> 01:41:17,780
 Like Bitcoin adjacent communities, whether they know they are Bitcoin adjacent or not.

1971
01:41:17,780 --> 01:41:18,780
 Absolutely.

1972
01:41:18,780 --> 01:41:25,780
 And there is, you know, like the, we are definitely part of the counter movement and there is a

1973
01:41:25,780 --> 01:41:29,780
 global counter movement, kind of, you know, moving back to the farms, grow your own food.

1974
01:41:29,780 --> 01:41:30,780
 Oh yeah.

1975
01:41:30,780 --> 01:41:31,780
 Yeah.

1976
01:41:31,780 --> 01:41:32,780
 And becoming more resilient across the stack.

1977
01:41:32,780 --> 01:41:34,780
 And that means not only food, but also health.

1978
01:41:34,780 --> 01:41:35,780
 Yeah.

1979
01:41:35,780 --> 01:41:38,780
 Also, I mean, you know, there's a reason why we do lots of these things outside and go on

1980
01:41:38,780 --> 01:41:39,780
 walks and so on.

1981
01:41:39,780 --> 01:41:43,780
 It's just like if you, like Odell goes on on the CO2 counter, right?

1982
01:41:43,780 --> 01:41:44,780
 Yeah.

1983
01:41:44,780 --> 01:41:48,780
 It's like if you're just in a meeting room all day and all the windows are closed and everything,

1984
01:41:48,780 --> 01:41:49,780
 it's just not good for you.

1985
01:41:49,780 --> 01:41:50,780
 It's not good for the brain.

1986
01:41:50,780 --> 01:41:53,780
 It's not good for you and all this kind of stuff.

1987
01:41:53,780 --> 01:41:57,780
 So I'm very hopeful that this will just continue to happen.

1988
01:41:57,780 --> 01:42:02,780
 And these communities will also, you know, in some sense integrate and learn from each other.

1989
01:42:02,780 --> 01:42:08,780
 And I think the Bitcoiners can definitely learn a lot from the communities you talked about.

1990
01:42:08,780 --> 01:42:09,780
 And vice versa as well.

1991
01:42:09,780 --> 01:42:11,780
 You know, like I think the Amish can learn a thing or two from.

1992
01:42:11,780 --> 01:42:12,780
 Yeah.

1993
01:42:12,780 --> 01:42:13,780
 Well, they don't know about inflation.

1994
01:42:13,780 --> 01:42:18,780
 I mean, like some Amish kid, they don't teach them an inflation.

1995
01:42:18,780 --> 01:42:19,780
 Yeah.

1996
01:42:19,780 --> 01:42:20,780
 Yeah.

1997
01:42:20,780 --> 01:42:21,780
 No, that's.

1998
01:42:21,780 --> 01:42:22,780
 Yeah.

1999
01:42:22,780 --> 01:42:23,780
 Here's to hope.

2000
01:42:23,780 --> 01:42:24,780
 Yeah.

2001
01:42:24,780 --> 01:42:25,780
 Absolutely.

2002
01:42:25,780 --> 01:42:26,780
 Absolutely.

2003
01:42:26,780 --> 01:42:29,780
 I think that's a nice bit to end on because I'm all out of steam.

2004
01:42:29,780 --> 01:42:36,780
 I told you at about 90 minutes, just walking in the sun and talking will do me in.

2005
01:42:36,780 --> 01:42:37,780
 I think we're even over 90 minutes.

2006
01:42:37,780 --> 01:42:38,780
 This is amazing.

2007
01:42:38,780 --> 01:42:39,780
 Thank you so much.

2008
01:42:39,780 --> 01:42:40,780
 Awesome.

2009
01:42:40,780 --> 01:42:41,780
 We always end on a hug.

2010
01:42:41,780 --> 01:42:42,780
 Sweaty hug this time.

2011
01:42:42,780 --> 01:42:43,780
 All right.

2012
01:42:43,780 --> 01:42:45,780
 So that was fantastic.

2013
01:42:45,780 --> 01:42:48,780
 And I'll put all the links, you know, everywhere and so on.

2014
01:42:48,780 --> 01:42:49,780
 And people can.

2015
01:42:49,780 --> 01:42:50,780
 Beautiful.

2016
01:42:50,780 --> 01:42:52,780
 Learn more about your things and look deeper into it.

2017
01:42:52,780 --> 01:43:00,780
 And to me, yeah, it's just fantastic that, you know, like people, people like you are showing up and sovereign engineering continues to happen.

2018
01:43:00,780 --> 01:43:02,780
 I mean, truly, thank you for having me.

2019
01:43:02,780 --> 01:43:04,780
 I don't feel worthy.

2020
01:43:04,780 --> 01:43:08,780
 And I, my wife told me that's an insult to you guys.

2021
01:43:08,780 --> 01:43:11,780
 So thank you for, thank you for considering me worthy.

2022
01:43:11,780 --> 01:43:12,780
 Awesome.

2023
01:43:12,780 --> 01:43:12,780
 Yeah.

2024
01:43:12,780 --> 01:43:13,780
 Thanks for coming.

2025
01:43:13,780 --> 01:43:15,780
 And yeah, we'll keep, we'll keep doing what we're doing.

2026
01:43:15,780 --> 01:43:16,780
 And we'll see what comes out of it.

2027
01:43:16,780 --> 01:43:17,780
 Awesome.

2028
01:43:17,780 --> 01:43:18,780
 Awesome.

2029
01:43:18,780 --> 01:43:19,780
 All right.

2030
01:43:19,780 --> 01:43:23,780
 Almost like one, one hour, 42 minutes.

2031
01:43:23,780 --> 01:43:24,780
 Nice.

2032
01:43:24,780 --> 01:43:30,780
 So 90 minutes is my, is my, the spot where, where my brain gives up usually.

2033
01:43:30,780 --> 01:43:31,780
 All right.

2034
01:43:31,780 --> 01:43:32,780
 All done.

2035
01:43:32,780 --> 01:43:33,780
 Perfect.

2036
01:43:33,780 --> 01:43:34,780
 Wow.

2037
01:43:34,780 --> 01:43:35,780
 It's good.

2038
01:43:35,780 --> 01:43:36,780
 Right.

2039
01:43:36,780 --> 01:43:37,780
 That was fun.

2040
01:43:37,780 --> 01:43:39,780
 It was great to get to know you guys.

2041
01:43:39,780 --> 01:43:40,460
 Yeah.