Hello, hello, test 1-2.
Alright, that should work. Let's do it. Just clip it on.
Already live, already recording.
You know what I think about edits and post-processing and...
Plenty of microphone bumping sounds.
All those kind of things.
And I'm not even going to test it.
You know, it's just like, I believe in technology.
It's going to work. It has to work.
And it has to select the right microphone channel, hopefully.
I had issues with that in the past.
It's like recording from your pocket.
Exactly. That's the worst because then I actually have to
get the audio off the little microphones and it's lots of manual labor.
And so the whole point of everything I'm building right now is to
minimize manual labor in cyberspace, basically, like automate all the things.
Automate everything.
There's so many retarded things that can be automated.
And also to just posting stuff, whatever.
Jesus just talked about this where it's like, sometimes you use a NOSA client
that doesn't have NOSA wallet connected up or whatever.
And you just want to, like, everything that I like with a lighting bold emoji,
I should have a demon run in the background that just saps everything like 21 sets or whatever.
Yeah.
Like, you can automate all this stuff. Why not? Let's build an army, a robot army for ourselves.
Yeah. Yeah. That's the cool part is that.
Let's not get hit by traffic.
Yeah. That's not going to end well.
Now, you can automate all this stuff.
And you see it with, I think it like quite a few years back,
there was like, what is it like this is zap it?
It was like, if this then else and like those stuff.
Oh, yeah, if this then that.
But they are so brittle because APIs are brittle.
Exactly.
Because they're not, they're, they're not you.
They're like, there's some, you're.
It's permissioned.
Permissioned automation.
Yeah.
And like, what we want to have is permissionless automation.
Yeah, permissionless.
And that's like.
Yeah.
It depends where you run it.
But like, your own hardware is usually permissionless.
Hopefully.
I mean, we're entering danger.
Dangerous territory there.
Yeah, that's the point.
And I mean, that's the, I'm still surprised, by the way, that.
Because the self hosting people.
And the local first people and so on.
They have the right ideas, but they're still outside of our bubble.
And so I wonder when this will happen.
That we hopefully managed to.
Eating sounds.
Eating sounds is going to be a new experience.
But it will hopefully, it will hopefully happen that we.
We'll bring those groups of people together that.
At least identify the problem right.
Yeah.
Because they got the problem right.
And the solution is also partly right.
Move like self hosting and so on.
I think there may be, there's two barriers there.
There's one of them is like, it's not obvious what the identity is.
That we kind of stumbled on with Noster.
It's like, the identity should be outside of the computer.
In some sense, like the private key.
Yeah, the private key is like a number, but it's not on your computer.
You can generate it alone in the toilet with all the computer.
Yeah, that's what makes Bitcoin so powerful.
That's what makes Noster so powerful.
Right.
And the, so there's that, they're like, they try to like,
you see it with like the, a lot like the mesh networking offline stuff is like.
Yeah.
There, in some sense, a lot of those systems, the identity is the node.
Yeah, not the user.
I see.
And so you end up with weird things like what's talking to what?
You have like these users trying to talk over a system that isn't them in some sense.
So like, it's missing the identity.
Yeah, I see.
Yeah.
Damn, I forgot the last point.
I have a second one.
What's up?
Welcome back.
Once you're hit by a car, it will come back.
Just be too late then.
That's a great point.
You said to get them in to get them.
What was your exact wording before?
I don't know.
What did we talk about?
Damn it.
The robot automation stuff is what I talked about.
All the stepping people.
No, no, no, just a few minutes ago.
The local first people.
The south hosting people in the local first people.
South hosting is definitely part of the solution.
But I don't think you want to.
That's what it was.
There you go.
They mix private and public up a little too much.
I think there's a, I was talking to Pete and Paul earlier today.
The local first is not explicitly private.
And if you default it to building it that way,
I just make all the local stuff on machine.
It's just private by default.
Now you're building applications for private use cases when.
They don't have network effect by definition.
Right.
And the unexplored territory is the public use cases.
The permissionless public software.
What they have wrong in some sense.
And that's why I think the 60s is awesome.
You see it with like, like, next cloud is a good example.
I mean, it has a lot of other problems.
But like, you deploy next cloud and by default it's private.
Even though what you really want,
the biggest benefit you probably get from like a personal cloud is like
having something that you just like give to people.
Here's a link of all my files that I like.
Take a look at it.
I think what you're hinting at is.
I think what Nostra got right with like your DMs are private
on Nostra and they follow you around.
So it doesn't, it private doesn't mean that it's just on one machine
which is localhost.
Private means it's encrypted with your key.
But the data can and should be kind of everywhere.
Because I want to fetch it no matter where I am, right?
And so if I want to save private stuff,
it's fine if it's in a hundred different machines.
Like, the reason why Bitcoin is so powerful and the reason why Bitcoin works
is because information is easy to spread and hard to stifle.
That's a direct tutorial she quote.
Nostra same thing with Nostra.
Same idea.
Information is easy to spread, hard to stifle.
And so, an anti-pattern kind of in computer science
and in like all the systems that we see is pretending
as if this was not the case.
Like a great example of this is DRM, right?
Like digital rights management blah blah blah all those kind of shit.
Because it pretends that information is actually hard to copy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which is completely misguided.
It's just not true.
Information is incredibly easy to copy.
Computers are copying machines.
And on Nostra side we should heavily lean into that.
We should lean into that so hard.
It should be everywhere.
It should be on my local relay.
It should be on the big relays.
It should be on the community relay.
It should be on the paid relay.
All the stuff should be everywhere.
And if it's private information, it should be encrypted with my key.
Yeah, that's an interesting thing with like a lot of the existing like local first applications.
The applications are great.
But then I just find myself wanting like,
man, I want to I want to move this data now.
Like I want to move the local.
And usually because yeah, they're built in such a way where like they pretend
that the data can't be copied.
Yeah.
And so it's like pretending that water isn't wet.
Yeah, and then they build walls around and we're like,
oh, we'll make sure it can't be copied.
And it's like, it's actually one of the features I want as a user.
Yeah.
It's like to take whatever data is like semi local and like move it.
Yeah, so I told you I'm building the reader thing now.
And the powerful thing about Nostra I think,
which we didn't exploit yet fully,
is like every Nostra app should be,
should work almost perfectly in flight mode.
Because if you have a local relay,
and it's very easy to bundle an app with a local relay.
Like it wasn't in the wasn't days,
it shouldn't be that hard.
But all my apps going forward will assume that the user has a local relay.
And if you run a local relay,
everything is cashed, everything's there.
I don't care.
It's just like loaded from the local relay.
Also in terms of flight mode, if I read,
I read offline, I mean literally in the airplane,
I read, I create highlights,
it's all on my local relay, I'm offline.
And the thing just periodically checks,
hey, once you're online again,
take everything that's on the local relay and re-procased it.
Yeah.
Offline mode achieved.
Put it back on that.
We've out, we've out actually doing anything fancy.
But it's that, it's that.
I don't know, that's very noisy.
Yeah, that's very noisy.
It's so bad.
It's the least annoying noises are.
No, it's that, it's that,
let's go this way first.
I like that, yeah.
Let's go this way and just as long as we can
it then turn around.
But that's the,
that's the, it's that assumption.
The assumption has to be there first of like,
let me assume that there's something there to build,
like, I don't know, it's like the building blocks already there.
Like the building block has to be there.
Let me just assume that there's a relay locally
and then you rely on it completely.
Hmm.
I mean, it's the first step in that direction,
in a sense that if the local relay isn't there,
the whole thing doesn't break completely.
It's just like, okay, then you're offline.
Yeah.
You know, it's, it's the status quo basically.
But if you have a local relay, everything works perfectly
as if you were online basically.
The interesting thing too is like with the local relay approach
that, because like, again, like what we,
like all these ideas are kind of talked about already.
And it's just now becoming either possible
or obvious why they need to be a thing.
But the local relay, the interesting thing about the relay,
I realize, was that when you connect
in like the global, the internet, the Noster Relay system,
like the public relays.
Yeah.
And this, I guess I've been struggling with like,
putting global relays and apps is like,
you always have to ask, like,
even if you have outbox model,
which is just for pulling your, like, your follower feed.
Even if you have a model like that,
you always have to ask the user what they want to connect to.
So it's always like, if you go with global,
it's always, it's either you hard-code it in a brakes
or you ask the user, in other words,
you ask the user for their preferences.
And what they want.
And that's the kind of friction right there.
But if you have local first,
I just grab the user's preferences.
In my apps, I always have like a hard-coded list.
It's just, you know, well, you know,
just to avoid this problem.
But once the user locks in,
I just grab all the relays of the user
and just add it to the pool and that's it.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm not afraid of, you know, just blasting stuff
to like 50 plus relays.
I don't care.
Well, it's not like, it's not the broadcast.
It's like when the user's trying to read something.
Like if I want to browse,
or if I want to search,
or if I want to browse like an article,
like my article feed.
Let's talk about search, actually.
You brought up an interesting point
because you got ants now as well.
This is how you get ants.
I actually owned an domain.
This is how you get ants.com.
And it will actually point you to the search.
I'll just still have to set up the forward.
But that's the idea.
So I both have,
this is how you get ants.com.
And I have also,
don't get ants.com.
Because you actually know when I get ants, actually.
A few people know.
But the whole point of ants was basically just to build a
Noster band-like search interface that just uses Nip50.
And just some other like quasi-smart things.
And as you pointed out, right now it's very slow.
It's like, yeah.
It's super stupid.
Like I have a list of two dudes that we can improve that super easily.
But your question was basically, okay.
How can you get data that's interesting to the user,
like the local data of the user that's everywhere.
How can you get it onto the local site, so to speak, right?
There was kind of part of your question, no?
In the search context.
How can you,
and I told you, you just go out and you have like a background worker,
or a demon, or whatever, that just constantly hits all the relays
that is constantly online.
It's like on a BPS or somewhere.
We see some of these things popping up.
And you just, you just basically put in your ant pump
and everything that's related to the ant pump,
you just pull in.
You pull in on your local one, so to speak.
Well, that's like, I mean, it can get smarter.
But like, let's say, it feels like that's like version one
of the web of trust.
It's like, it's a 90th implementation.
It'll get you 90% there, but it's not what actually is happening.
But the only parameter you want to play around with is like,
you build it in a general way, and you just have like,
you know, the six degrees of separation, right?
And you just have like an equal zero is just your stuff.
An equals one is your stuff and your friends.
An equals two is your stuff and your friends and the friends of the friends.
And an equal six, like what we know about graph theory,
is like, if you put it on an equal six,
you have the whole no-server.
Yeah, you have the whole no-server.
Like the quote unquote, global.
Like all the stuff you connected to basically.
But the interesting thing, too, is like,
so, I mean, that's like the basic web of trust.
Like, we know it gets you almost all the way there
for interesting stuff, like what you care about.
Because in some sense, it all comes from the,
it all is based entirely on the assumption
that you constantly curate your local friends.
Because if you don't like, if that breaks and like people stop,
in other words, if we don't have the social layer of Noster,
where you're doing that, because like,
Sure.
If we don't have people browsing the social feed and curating follows,
then you don't have that, like basically that first step of like,
what is the user's preference?
Yeah.
Sure.
And then, yeah.
I mean, that's the, that's the,
that's the presupposition, basically, I guess,
that's the, we have to assume that I also,
I don't like automating that away in some sense.
No.
I, every time you introduce algorithms in terms of like,
who to follow and all those kind of things,
on some platforms, they kind of work,
but it always gives you the middle of the bell curve stuff,
basically, the other people,
it caters to the lowest common denominator,
always kind of by definition in some sense.
I think.
It's almost like an anti-pattern,
and like, if you want, I think it's an anti-pattern.
It's like based on popularity.
Like, don't mess with my follow list.
Like, I always hated that.
I always hated that.
For everything, also for the reading apps, for example,
it's like, oh, here's some, you read,
you've, you've been reading those three articles.
Here's some other articles that you're interested in,
and it's always garbage.
It's always garbage.
I'm never interested in that stuff.
And, and I'm not sure, I, I don't know.
I, I'm not sure if you can,
I mean, there is discovery,
noster has a discovery problem, and so on.
I, I don't argue that, but,
we, you have to draw the line somewhere,
and I think the line in the sand for me is like,
don't touch my follow list, in some sense.
And, and on, on the other extreme,
it's like, you, you, you remember Google Plus
with the circles, and so on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
If you have to do that, no one's going to do it.
If I have to hand curate 15 different circles,
it's like, going to be.
That's the thing is, like, because I think there's something
we don't understand it yet, and we,
we might get there, but like, it's,
it's working, in some sense.
And like, the dough, like, don't touch my follow list.
It's a great thing.
It's like, there's something there.
There's something about user preference,
and it's probably different for everybody.
But like, we've somehow managed, like,
somehow like bootstrapping with memes and the social feed,
has somehow managed to create this.
Yeah, just saying good morning, I love it.
Yeah, like, you can more, like,
we have this bit of thing in the, in the,
in the internet now, which is,
the best representation of some generic user preference
that we've got outside of an algorithm.
It's not just like popularity base.
Like, oh, he clicked the like button.
And therefore, he likes this stuff.
Yeah, it's actually kind of real connections in some sense.
Yeah.
It's like, you really get to know the people,
just if they post good morning,
if they post good night, if they post memes.
Whatever day post, it doesn't matter.
You get to know someone kind of through the internet a bit.
And, you know, of course, you know,
real life and internet are, you know,
sometimes, sometimes their overlap isn't that big.
How someone is online, and how someone is offline, and so on.
But still, it really works.
And just by saying good morning,
and posting whatever you're interested in,
I think, I think that's where Noster can really shine.
That's why I think we shouldn't mess with it so much
on the discoverability front.
Like, like, a primal, for example,
got a lot of flack by pre-populating the follows.
That was did in the beginning as well.
Yeah.
And then it's like, you, you install an app,
and you, you're completely new to this stuff,
and it's like, okay, why do I follow those like 30 people?
And all they talk about is like Bitcoin, you know?
Yeah.
It's like, what the hell?
Well, it's kind of off-putting,
because again, you just like assigned users like a preference.
Yeah.
And like, this is, it's the same thing.
I mean, if you detox from like ads and YouTube for a while,
you come back to the YouTube homepage, you're like,
oh, my lord.
It's like, what, like, this is like,
it's not just like stuff I'm not interested in,
it's insulting me stuff I'm not interested in.
Yeah.
Like, why would you think I'm ever interested in this?
Absolutely.
And it's the same kind of like, set the user preference.
And really backfire.
I think where Noster can shine is on the realness park.
Like, lots of social media,
lots of internet stuff is completely fake.
Yeah.
And Noster, up to now, at least, yet.
Like, Noster isn't yet.
And I think we, I hope we can manage to keep it that way.
And what I build into the, into ads, for example,
what I build into the search,
I rank or the profiles.
I mean, I use Vertex as the base.
Yeah.
If you can't hit Vertex, use Vertex.
Graph theory beats my like super stupid ranking.
But in terms of figuring out,
who do you mean when you look, when you search for John?
Let's say, images posted by John.
Okay?
That's a query that you can do very easily in the search.
And the first step is to figure out who is John.
Yeah.
Because there is no global, that's a very hard thing to do.
You can do a global page rank, but it depends on what relays you hit,
all those kind of things.
Cheers.
If you log in, it will actually query all your relays.
Figure, try to figure out who John is.
If you follow John, it's probably this John.
Yep.
If the John, if you don't follow a John,
then it's about realness.
Who is actually the real John?
Who isn't the bot?
Who isn't the bridge account?
Who isn't like, just was created 10 seconds ago and so on.
And so what I use is, nipple 5, I use it extensively.
And if you have a nipple 5 set,
you're more real than someone without a nipple 5.
Yeah.
It's a very opinionated software, so people will argue about that.
But if you have a nipple 5 that doesn't resolve to the end,
you're obviously fake.
That's a high signal that you're fake.
Quite a lot of actual fake accounts are not so that have that.
If you, I know, I figured that out.
If you have a nipple 5, and it's the root level domain of the nipple 5,
like editorgg.com, very likely a real account.
Yep.
If you have a lightning address set,
if you are a SAP, I will also speak,
you're more real than if you're not SAPable.
If you ever receive the SAP,
you're more real than if you have never received the SAP.
If you ever send the SAP, you're even more real than you are.
And because SAPs can be faked,
if you ever send or receive not-saps,
you're the most real thing there is.
Because not-saps can't be faked.
So I have all these metrics to rank or the profiles by realness.
And that's what I mean by low-hanging fruits.
We have all this stuff in Noster.
Every client can do that.
Very few clients do those kind of things.
Just show a little indication where it's like,
this user has never sent a SAP.
It's interesting, too, it's like.
Well, it's interesting, like,
yeah, and like, that is kind of one of the things,
there's two things there, it's like,
one of the things I've been thinking about, like, local first,
is that you can start, like,
it allows you to start experimenting with more algorithms.
Like, for example, that is-
Because it's super fast.
Because it's a local database.
You're spending nothing but your own compute.
I mean, asking anyone for a compute.
That's why I think that's why we'll build NosterDB.
Yeah.
That's what I'm like-
But I think a local relay is good enough.
Like, it's fast enough.
They're the same thing.
It's a different API to talk to the same day.
It's a data set.
That's the issue.
Because if I want to use NosterDB,
I have to rewrite my app.
If I want to use a local relay,
I don't have to do anything.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know what I'm trying to get it.
Yeah.
It's different from, like, proprietary versus, like, open,
open way of talking to things.
Pretty much, yeah.
But the interesting thing is,
like, having things, like, local first,
allows you to experiment with more algorithms.
But, and I think-
I think the answer is, like,
kind of discovering, maybe.
But what I've found with a few of the things I've messed with
is local first,
in the absence of any type of algorithm,
is actually some kind of algorithm.
So, for example, like, I pile-
Yeah.
I have 500,000 notes sitting on my laptop.
Yeah.
If I search your username, like, GG.
Yeah.
It returns your user.
Yeah.
There's no algorithm on a local relay.
And now, if you put a local,
if you run C3 on your phone,
and it just use NosterApps,
they hit C3 in your local relay on your phone,
if you use another app,
it's already pre-populated with data
that's relevant to you.
That's relevant to you.
In other words, kind of an algorithm.
Yeah.
And the interesting thing is that,
it's like, think about like your browser history.
Like, if you want to know what is, like,
the real Amazon.com.
You can run an algorithm over, like,
either curated or the global date of the internet.
But if you search your local browser history,
it will tell you what Amazon.com is to know.
Basically, not from, like, any sort of algorithm,
but basically from your activity,
you're in a way that's like your preferences,
build a data set that is then representing
of what your preferences are.
Like, it's a powerful thing what's currently happening.
It's like, also with the knowDNS idea,
replacing the NS and so on.
Once you have the local companies,
you don't have to query your web of trust
or a server or whatever.
Like, you don't have to query the outside world all the time.
That's the interesting thing is,
like, once you have your local,
in other words, like,
for lack of a word,
it's called, like, local preferences.
Once you build up your local preferences,
then you can almost, like,
you can do the naive approach,
which is just throw away the algorithm.
Just don't have an algorithm.
It's probably good enough.
And, like, that's the interesting thing with that,
is, like, that's what I found.
It's, like, I have.
You're not certain.
I will get better over time,
and smart over time,
just by having a local cache and the local relay.
Yeah.
And it's strange.
Like, I don't know how well it works.
Most of the time you're not offline, right?
That's the thing.
Most of the time you're not offline.
And so, when I want to have is just, like,
all the apps that I use,
if I'm on a flight,
and let's be real, like,
playing Wi-Fi still sucks ass.
So, if I'm on a flight,
I'm going to be in flight mode.
And I just still want to use all this stuff.
I want to read through my timeline.
I want to read, like,
I want to like things,
I want to sap things, and so on.
And then, back online,
it just broadcasts all the events
that were local only for me.
But, like, you know?
The funny thing is, like,
it's, like, not even, like,
offline, online,
because this is what I was talking to.
It's something that, uh,
exactly, it's a mesh idea.
I forget, yeah.
But I just forget who I was, like,
talking to.
It's a key to, like,
I forget who I was talking to earlier this week,
but I was like,
there's too many, not too many people.
There's a trap, if you think about offline,
in that,
you can, if you're-
Because usually you're relying on the server.
Right.
And even if you throw away that idea,
and you go, like,
this is, like,
kind of, go back to, like,
the local mesh guys,
is they might have fallen into this trap,
which is,
you're trying to solve offline.
You're trying to make offline
of the quality of offline.
Yeah.
Never-
Never use a server ever,
basically, in some sense.
Yeah.
Unless it's on your land, you know?
Yeah.
Like, like, like,
do you see this, for example,
like, people who, like,
like, Google Docs is a great example.
Like, Google Docs,
I mean, it's built to be online
because everything on Google is online.
Oh, yeah.
But the offline mood,
a mode of Google Docs,
is purely there to bridge
the fact that offline exists.
Yeah.
If offline didn't exist.
Google Docs would not have
any offline feature.
Yeah.
Because it's not designed to be offline.
Yeah.
And so, if you build in that sense,
we're, like,
you think about offline,
purely as just, like,
as a thing to be solved
to get back online.
Yeah.
You're missing a huge part
of, like, what's there?
Yeah.
But if you embrace, like,
it's just offline.
And here's the thing about
what's not your way of doing things.
Service?
Aren't bad.
Service aren't evil.
Getting rock-pulled is bad.
Yeah.
And so, if you can use servers
without getting rock-pulled,
use service.
That was, that was via Jeff's
insight.
Yeah.
That was via Jeff's insight,
where it's like,
purely peer-to-peer,
or purely offline or whatever,
doesn't make any sense.
Doesn't work.
Can never work, can never scale.
So, how can you use servers
without getting rock-pulled?
And that's where the signed data
and everything else comes in,
and so on and so forth.
And that's where, you know,
done really smart clients,
and so on.
And that's the right approach.
And what we,
one of the low-hanging fruits
of Nostrader,
we didn't make use of yet,
is that it gives you
that flying mold.
You know what's funny about that?
It's like back to the offline thing,
like the local first guys,
is like, in some sense,
to generalize, like,
that's what they're trying to solve.
They're trying to take
the best parts of online,
and the best parts of offline,
and merge them into
this thing they call
mesh network and peer-to-peer.
They're trying to have their
cake and eat it too.
When there is two distinct things,
there is offline,
and there's online.
There is servers,
and there's local.
They're trying to get both,
in other words,
peer-to-peer.
They're trying to, like,
everything is a server,
and everything is local.
There's many reasons it doesn't work,
but like,
it's...
The other paradigm,
like client server,
like online offline.
Functions,
and it doesn't, like...
To translate it to
Nosterling always,
like, you always need a relay.
You always need a relay,
and the relay might be,
and the relay is just a server,
and the relay might be on device.
Yeah.
But the online...
There's a difference
between a relay
is online,
in the words,
bridging you
to something bigger,
and something that's running...
I mean, what's the internet, right?
The internet is just a couple of
lands that are bridged.
Yeah, right.
So same idea, right?
So it depends on...
Like, once you bridge all the lands together,
you have the internet.
Same with the relay stuff, right?
Like, why not?
And it comes back to
information,
it's easy to spread,
hard to stifle.
You only need one connection,
and it might be a sneaker net,
and then you have
the internet again.
You only need one link
between two networks,
and then it's like,
it bridges to the other network.
All right.
But there are some things different in that.
No, it's right,
but there's something different in that,
like, the server model,
like you said,
like,
servers are not a bad thing.
Like, a server is not
just a bridge to another user.
It's a unknown bridge to all the users.
In some...
In other words,
a publish.
A publish is not...
I will send it to everyone
on my mailing list.
It is, I will put it out
so that anyone can find it.
And there's kind of a new answer,
because to look at it from a peer-to-peer perspective,
you cannot publish in a peer-to-peer network,
because you don't know all the peers,
you don't know the rest of everybody.
Yeah.
So you need something...
You can only...
You can only gossip.
You can broadcast to everyone.
Like, you couldn't...
You couldn't send an email to everyone,
because you don't know everyone.
So, I guess, like, the emailing lists,
like the emailing lists and whatnot.
Where it's like...
There's this center point that's...
Like, almost like a community point
a junction in some sense.
Yeah.
Where it's like...
And that's not...
And that's not a...
There's something about that action
that's not...
Peer-to-peer.
That's not...
Local to local.
In some sense.
Maybe it's, like, local to, like, a hot-local hub
or something.
I don't know.
The terminology starts to break down.
But, like,
it's a different action
than just, like,
send it to everyone I know.
It's like, I will...
I think what we...
And what we ran into with Noster DMs and so on,
it's like, you wanna differentiate.
Noster was built for broadcasting.
Yeah.
Noster was built for public broadcasting.
Like, literally, a social media network.
Like, we want...
We want, like, VHF build a Twitter replacement, basically.
That was the idea.
Yeah.
And something that works
and hopefully scales and all those kind of things.
It's a good thing...
It's a good thing he built it poorly,
because otherwise, I would not be working on Noster.
Oh, 100%.
It's like...
As I joined, I joined...
I remember that app,
and I was like,
this is terrible.
And I looked at the cars like,
I could do better than this.
That's the secret.
Like, he nerds night,
a bunch of communities.
You know, that's the secret.
Just...
Just publish it and make it really bad.
Yeah.
But the idea out,
but the first version, just make it terrible.
So that people are like,
you come along,
it's like, I can build this in like,
10x better way.
Yeah.
No, it's...
It's a part of open source
that a lot of people don't get it.
It's like...
Half...
Don't be afraid to publish.
Half of open sources,
like, describing ideas.
Yeah.
The other half of source,
like, nerds night.
Yeah.
And just half-ass it,
push it out,
like, make a nice...
I don't know, like...
I mean, we are still...
We are still better than that as well.
We just talked about it today
in the morning.
We will have to get better
at publishing videos of this stuff,
we both.
Like, there's so much amazing stuff
that's being created,
and no one knows about it.
I'm gonna...
I'm gonna make a video about
how to get ants.
I'm gonna...
I'm gonna make that...
maybe tonight,
or tomorrow,
somewhere...
We've been walking in circles for a while.
Maybe let's...
Let's enter the noisy world again.
There's a conversation.
It's gonna go in circles.
That's how it works.
But the...
I think the...
What I wanted to say is,
like, broadcasting is different
than sending a DM in some sense.
It's like...
And we had this issue
of the metadata leaks
with the primitive ways
we did the ants, right?
It was like...
It's very easy to figure out.
It's like, who's talking to whom?
So we had all this, you know,
DM metadata leakage and so on.
But it's...
It relates to what we said earlier
where it's like...
You don't...
You want to have the data
kind of everywhere.
And...
Like, private data isn't crypto data.
It's not data that's just on your computer.
It's actually not private data.
You go through TSA once
and it's not your data anymore.
You know?
Like, you have a Russian hacker on your phone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's not your data anymore.
Private data isn't crypto data, period.
It doesn't matter where the data lives.
And the...
The awesome thing about Noster is...
The whole architecture is like where...
It...
It shouldn't matter where the data comes from.
Ah, but it forced a hand in some sense.
Like, it was like...
The assumption back...
The assumption was...
Oh, it's on my computer.
It's private data.
But like, the Noster events...
They're built to leak.
So it's like...
Exactly.
It's on my computer.
It's not private data.
It should get...
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So, like, if you want it private...
And that was the thing with Noster.
It was like...
If you want it private,
it wasn't a matter of like putting off education in front of it.
It wasn't a matter of like...
Of like gating it.
It wasn't a matter of like making it local.
It was like...
No, it has to be encrypted.
Absolutely.
Because it's built to get out.
It's the only...
And that's why I love Noster so much.
I literally love it.
Information has a certain nature and characteristic.
And it's easy to spread hard to stifle and so on.
All those kind of things.
And...
And you have to go with the flow of information.
Trying to...
Trying...
It's the same with deletion, for example.
Deletion...
Deleting data is a lie.
You cannot prove deletion.
You know?
It's like...
And if you try, you're going to have to strise in the fact, right?
It's like...
You know what I mean?
And Noster really leads it to all that.
But the funny thing is it also leads it to the other part of information.
Which is...
It will delete itself in some way.
Oh, you have BitRot and all those kind of things.
That's why...
One of the low-hanging fruits of Noster, and I'm just...
You know, I'm preparing my talk for tomorrow.
That's why we're talking, by the way.
But it's...
One of the low-hanging fruits of Noster is like...
My relay set changes all the time.
I want to have a demon or a smart thing running in the background.
Grabbing all my events and re-broadcasting them to my current relay set.
Just to fight the BitRot.
Yeah.
I want to have a BitRot defense mechanism.
And the same for blossom stuff.
Like my blossom servers change and so on.
Just, you know, just to hint.
I know.
Nudge Nudge.
It's a way to do this to like a year now.
Bucke is nice, right?
Was it Florian who bought it?
Yeah.
It's awesome because it's a step-in-the-right direction where you can see at least...
Okay, this blob only exists in one blossom server.
And with one click, you can upload it to multiple hands-on.
But this should happen automatically.
I have multiple blossom servers in my Noster profile right now.
You can just grab the things, download the fucking blob,
re-upload it to the other ones and delete it again.
Very super low-hanging fruit.
And on the client side, on the Noster client side,
what should happen is like if a blossom link 404s,
grab the blossom servers from the user and try to find it and try to repair the link.
The whole point of blossom is to have self-healing links,
just like Noster identifies as self-healing.
And we don't have it yet.
If a blossom server goes down, everything goes down.
Like I got an email.
We got an email because the haven relay of sovereign engineering went down.
And the no-solutions audio files are stored on that one.
And literally one server went down and the whole podcast everything disappeared.
Yeah.
So we're not there yet.
We still have some low-hanging fruits to implement.
Yeah, like the idea is out there, but it still needs...
And I think that's also what got me starting to think about.
Well, it feels like the local first is the solution for a lot of that stuff
because the blobs are heavier, so it makes like less server.
Like there's less blossom servers because they're just heavy.
Yeah.
It's hard to move.
Yeah.
But if you do local first, then...
No, it is the solution.
The local first is because like you just need...
Maybe not even local first, like local also.
Because I also...
I don't want to be super aligned on my local...
It should be like a cache kind of.
If it goes away, it goes away.
I don't care.
I can rebuild it.
We can rebuild it.
We have the technology.
It's all out there.
You just scrap the stuff again, back to the like an equal zero idea, right?
Right.
You just hit all the other relays.
It should be all there.
It's not local first.
It's not local.
I mean local first, but it's like local also.
Yeah.
And so it's...
Don't forget about local.
It's the missing piece in Blossom.
It's like the other piece that just hasn't been built yet.
That it needs to be.
Because the interesting thing is that it needs to be experimented.
And there's two ideas I have that haven't built yet.
One of them is just like the local cache of just blossom blooms.
That's been bugging me because I haven't built it for like a last year.
It was literally the first thing I built in like the prototype before Blossom was like,
you just make this like a reverse proxy cache.
Yeah.
Because if you built it, you get a CDN for free.
Yeah.
Because the same thing that we talked about about what NOSTER data is relevant for you in terms of events and so on.
Yeah.
What blobs are relevant for you or your community or your area even?
Like if you're German, you're probably going to consume German content.
Yeah.
German media content, videos and so on.
And then it's for free.
Exactly.
Without...
Exactly.
You don't have to implement smart things.
No.
Left side of the bell curve CDN.
Yeah.
And the interesting thing is like the users will do it for you in some sense.
The user activity is what will populate the CDN.
Yeah.
So like that's the first...
Assuming that enough user's self-host and so on, which we, you know, like that's...
We have a lot of assumptions.
But it's in your best interest to do that.
It's just like with running NOSTER.
We haven't seen this with NOSTER really yet either, which could be an interesting...
It's a less useful case because there's so many NOSTER notes
that the burden of synchronizing is harder.
But if you had a NOSTER relay that didn't store anything initially
and just started storing things based on the queries it got...
We have some relays that only safe notes from the last 24 hours over the last week.
We have some of those.
Hmm.
So this already exists.
It's something different though.
It's like...
The preference is...
Like maybe...
Okay.
It's slight tangent, but I want to get back to the blossom thing.
It's like...
The topic...
It's kind of going all the way down.
Don't be afraid.
The topic-based relays.
I've talked about it a little bit and...
Yeah.
A few other people are experimenting with.
Yeah.
It's a relay that will just accept content that talks about relays.
Right, right.
But they relied on publishing.
Yeah.
Which was...
It's kind of a weak link because it's back to the whole thing of like...
The email list and what's global.
It's like, I just want to publish out.
I don't want to think where it's being published.
So it's an extra burden.
It's extra work for me to make a topic-based relay because I have to publish to it.
Whereas there's maybe an opposite approach which is a topic-based relay that...
I don't see that way.
I don't see that way because I just include the whale relay.
Let's take back the whale one.
That's an easy example.
And if I ever talk about whales, it's going to land on this relay.
And I assume that the whale enthusiasts will keep this data around for long.
It's also less data.
You see it differently?
But the Reddit approach is the opposite in some sense.
There's like a legit way where they pull the information.
Yeah, yes, also.
But there is cross-posting as well.
Yeah.
Cross-posting is like broadcasting in some sense.
And there is also cross-posting and then deletion.
So it's kind of...
I don't know.
It's weird.
I'm more on the...
Like, it's blasted everywhere camp.
And wherever it stays, it stays.
Yeah.
And it works better in that sense.
Because it also works with locals.
Like, you know, let's black...
You blaster, do you pull it everywhere?
Like anyone who follows a certain podcast just automatically pulls down its MP3 files.
And then if they stay on the local machine and they...
It's curated in some sense.
I mean, what we are describing right now,
Torrance have implemented for a long, long time.
Yeah.
So I always come back like, if we talk about the censorship-resistant stuff,
I always kind of land on Torrance.
Yeah.
And I still think that that's another low-hanging fruit.
But it's...
It's almost there and the problem is like...
I think the problem is jail mostly.
I think a lot of smart people are afraid to touch it.
Because, of course, Torrance have a bad rap.
But they shouldn't have, actually.
Like, all the earliest video podcasts were distributed with Torrance.
Because YouTube didn't exist yet.
Right, right.
And so...
And no one had the capabilities to actually host large files and so on.
And so...
And also the first...
I think the video game installs like games are like five gigabytes,
10 gigabytes and so on.
Like, at least blizzard did it.
They still do it.
I think so.
So there is loads of legitimate use for...
Torrance is a fantastic protocol.
It's just a fantastic protocol.
And I hope that soon.
Because we do have a media hosting problem.
And the solution is not...
The solution we have right now is like everyone uploads to the primal blossom server, basically.
More or less.
You know, like...
Use one of the centralized solutions.
And the file lives in one place and it works well.
It does, yeah.
It goes right back to like the whole existing...
Exactly.
It works well enough for now.
But what we should have...
Let me just like...
Been this for a moment.
But what we should have is...
We should...
We should have...
And I mean, I know it's like...
It's dangerous to build this out in some sense or...
I don't know if you want to do it.
But what we kind of should have...
And we have all that building blocks again.
Like, Torrance have existed and worked fantastically well for it.
Wow.
If I...
Let's take American Hotels blocks.
If he publishes a blog...
Everyone who watches it...
The video is already on the phone.
Yes.
And for a little while...
I'm fine with seating that again.
Let me see it for a week.
And so if something goes viral, for example...
It's just gonna...
It's gonna be everywhere.
And it doesn't matter...
There's no server, you know?
Right, right.
But that's kind of the...
It's like...
That...
That is the idea to get to...
But to get there...
It's almost like we have to build down.
Because like the building up...
Like the whole like IPFS idea.
Like everyone...
Even...
Ah, IPFS is for targets.
Just ask via Jeff.
Yeah.
Well, I agree with him on that.
And that was...
But like the whole building up idea is...
There's so much to overcome.
But if you start building...
If you start building like CDNs down...
In some sense.
Like...
Like more local...
Yeah.
Like more local CDNs.
Then eventually maybe you get all the way down to the usual world.
Yes.
But at least you get down to the community.
Yes.
And it's way easier to do it with...
Blobs and with Jason Files...
Yes.
Then with...
I don't know.
I think no.
So what I...
When I hope it's gonna happen is...
I gotta take time.
Like just building it out.
It's gonna take time.
Vibe coding or not.
But loads of people have start lines.
Loads of people have umbrellas and so on.
And just...
I just reminded you of another thing that you wanted to build and you didn't.
No, it's like...
Nobody sees that yet.
But that's the next step.
Build something that's one click install.
Just back up all my data.
But it's local first.
It is.
It back up all my data.
You put it in your master profile.
So all your clients automatically connect to your thing.
Like we have the first inklinks of that already.
We've lost a relay tray with some things and so on.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Let's go there.
Here's the interesting thing.
Let's try to avoid the noise.
This is what...
I don't know when I figured this out.
I figured it out recently.
But because I've been trying to think what's kept me from building
that kind of like local Blossom cache is laziness.
And the second part, which is...
I don't know how to tell the user what it is.
In the best case, you don't have to.
If it's a cache.
But the interesting thing is I want to tell...
There's one sales point which is this will make everything go faster.
Yeah.
And that's a nice sales point.
But I want to tell the user...
No, it's not the user.
It's maybe the other developers.
But why?
And the why is hard because the local cache is understandable.
And it works.
That's one use case.
But I want to tell...
Why local?
Why not just make my cache primal?
And the why?
Say that again.
Why not make your cache primal?
Like...
You're sorry, primal.net.
Like the block...
Why not rebuild Cloudflare?
That's what you're asking.
Exactly.
Like why?
So, if the sales point is make things go faster.
Why not just rebuild Cloudflare?
Because you might be offline.
Yes, but that's...
There's something...
Yes.
But like...
I have an answer that will not satisfy anyone, but still the right answer.
Because we want to build it right.
And building Cloudflare is building it wrong.
Right.
And but there's something there which is that...
The building at right is back to...
In some sense, like back to the person with the computer.
Why local?
Because it's actually...
It's what you said.
It works.
It's actually censorship resistance.
And it...
And what it means to translate it to normy speak.
No one cares about censorship resistance.
You don't care about censorship resistance.
Until you have to care about censorship resistance.
But another way of saying resistance to censorship is 100% uptime.
It will always be available.
It has 100% uptime.
There's something more there, I think, which is also...
Resistance is trying to find a word...
Long-term reliance.
Resistance to mutability and being changed.
Like it is...
You can't get Ruggpool.
That's the thing.
You can only Ruggpool yourself.
But it's not like Ruggpool isn't like just like yanked offline.
It's Ruggpool is like what you're seeing with the other...
Let's take an example at everyone understands basically.
There's lots of people that build up content on the internet
and they build it in someone else's house.
Yes.
And then the house goes bankrupt or goes away or gets sold
and all your stuff is gone.
Geosid is my space.
Pick your poison.
And those are very old examples.
Still exists today with YouTube and everything else.
YouTube can Ruggpool you at any minute.
And so you have to have long-term stability.
You have to run your own...
No, thanks. No weed for me today.
Thanks. We're in the middle of something.
But who knows? Maybe one day we'll try.
Do I look so much like a homeless person that just random people
in the street offer me drugs?
Probably.
Perfect customer.
He knows his crowd.
He just looks at the people.
This is this one.
Talk to this one.
But I think talking about it,
if we actually want to reach more people and go out of our bubble,
talking about censorship resistance is not the way in some sense.
No, no.
It's still a core value that makes everything work.
But the side effects.
I'm going to keep harping on this just because I had one coffee too many.
Every app works in flight mode.
Everything works in flight mode.
You have an offline mode.
For free.
It's your developer.
You never need an API key.
You don't need to sign up.
You can just build.
You can just do things.
Yes, but I love files.
Maybe one step more, which is everything works.
But the interesting thing about running everything locally,
in other words, running everything in the user's compute device.
It shouldn't matter where things are run.
And it might as well be local.
Right.
But you get something else in local,
which is kind of back to the browser history and everything else.
You internally have the user's preference.
Yes, yes, yes.
Without it being explicit about them.
You have the user's algorithm.
Without needing to set any sense.
Let me rephrase that.
The data accumulates where it needs to accumulate.
Yes.
And then other apps and all the whole system can make use of the accumulated data.
It's like back to the browser history.
If you install locally,
the browser history is by default most of the time,
if young correctly, is stored locally.
If you just analyze that locally,
you have the user's preferences.
Yeah.
And interests and other things that's on.
And so everything you're interested in,
you just have it purely because it accumulates locally.
Yeah.
And here is a neat thing.
Like in general, we could, for example, identify the user's local relays.
We can't already do that because we already have relays listed our local.
Yes.
Like we already have this.
And so you can do,
you can, you can,
because I'm not interested what's trending on Primal.
Like right now, maybe, because it's like a couple of hundred people,
everyone's my friend.
Yes.
But in the future, you won't,
I'm not interested.
Like, let me take a different example.
When Twitter grow as big as it grew,
I'm not interested about what's trending on Twitter.
Yeah.
It's completely uninterested,
uninteresting to me.
But what's trending,
what has been trending in the last 48 hours on my local relay,
or on my community relay,
I'm probably interested in my web of trust,
web of trust relays are kind of local relays in that sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're just local relays.
What's trending in my watch relay?
Like WOT dot theirGG dot com,
come join the party.
I follow like one and a half thousand people,
so it's a big crowd.
That's a big crowd.
It's a big party there.
No, but it's, it's um,
and kind of like,
I'm like, that was the part,
that is the thing I'm just trying to figure out with,
not figure out,
that is the part I think I have a solution for,
for the blossom stuff,
because there's kind of an issue with the blossom blobs
and they don't move quickly.
They don't move, they don't move,
but it has to be either organically
or a background worker.
For images, it works organically in the class.
Yeah, images work, yeah.
But like,
like the user,
like because this is,
this is one of the issues,
that could be solved.
I'm trying to build something,
is that because the nostro notes are visualized so easily,
feel like we're being rained on really heavily now.
That's fine.
We'll be fine.
Ah, fuck the tree.
Let's go to the lighthouse.
But like because,
because you could just plug a nostro in client
in your local relay,
and then see what's on the relay,
you get kind of an idea of like why,
but like the preference is the,
what is, what is actually there?
I don't know, long story short,
it's like for the blossom blobs,
they need like the why local is,
because it's faster,
but also like,
they need context of like why am I,
why is this thing on my device?
So for the backup idea,
one thing I want to see if it works is,
you don't back up the blossom blobs.
You backup your data,
in other words your nostro events,
with the blossom blobs,
but you never show the user what files they have.
You show them what posts they have,
what podcast episodes they have,
what,
like the browser never shows you the HTML pages.
Oh, sure, sure.
It shows you the website you've been to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You mean, you're just,
you're mostly interested when you're browsing the thing and so on.
You actually don't get the whole blob,
you just get the metadata,
you just get the header, so to speak,
you just get the,
Yeah, you get,
you get the YouTube thumbnail
into the description of the title.
Like when you browse,
like no, like your browser never shows you its local cache.
It doesn't show you the CSS HTML,
image file,
it never even shows you the image files you have cache.
It says,
here's the last website you went to in the last day,
I've cache most of it.
Yeah.
And so the user,
the why for the user,
like the why the cache is not,
oh, this file will come back faster,
because they don't even know the file exists.
It's,
the thing I did before will come back faster.
Yeah.
Well, the thing I care about will come back faster.
Yeah.
So,
I don't know,
it's an idea of it,
I want to play with more,
and I think it's right,
because it's like with a lot of not stuff with not stuff,
like the user doesn't care about the data,
like this explicit data,
they care about the context,
the thing,
that's like a collection of it,
it's like a small collection of it,
like the podcast episode's published is kind ones,
or like the videos,
like the huddle,
not huddle,
huddle.
American huddle.
Like his,
it's not the mp4 files you care about,
it's each post,
and the collection of it,
maybe it's also with the zaps,
or also with the reactions,
or also with the user's profile.
And you care,
you care,
I think you care mostly about this stuff,
because you want to find it again quickly.
Yes.
You want to refer to it.
You want to show a friend,
like how,
everyone is in this situation all the time.
You saw a video or something?
Yeah.
You have your phone,
you have no way of finding it again.
Yeah.
Like this is true for TikTok,
this is true for YouTube,
this is true for so many things.
Yeah.
And so this is true for Noster as well.
You want to show something,
it's like everything takes forever to load,
and I don't know,
like it's good.
You can't even start like the user profile.
Ah, I know a thing that solves it, by the way.
I know a search engine,
it's really good at showing it.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's the same thing that's kind of,
you look at it that way,
like you want to find an mpub again.
But you're not trying to find the npub
in some search engine.
That actually has a local cache,
and it will hit the local cache first.
So if you looked up an npub before,
it was immediately,
which sometimes you get false positives,
and it's terrible,
but that's the idea.
I want to...
Yeah, there's ways to make that really good.
The ways to make that local relays and stuff like that.
Step one is to build a shitty version.
So we need a shitty,
blossom local cache first.
Yeah.
And the thing is,
I like that we have Haven already so Haven is really easy to set up kind of and it could
be easier like you know again like start nine one click on but it's reasonably easy and
I think with the next the next easy step very low hanging fruit on the blossom side,
it's spelled a little too like talked with Jesus about this today by the way like a little
kind of little noster I don't know what what what how we call it but little noster help us
like little demons they run it back on something that you actually run you self-host you run on
your start nine you run on your armor like a like a noster noster helper tools helper set
little help a little like little gnomes little noster gnomes that help you do your things and
for example like I think I mentioned it already but just go over the old events and re-procast them
to the to the current real estate yes go over your blossom blobs and re-procast like re upload them
yep down go over everything download it upload it again to the new blossom service like do that
all the time do it all the time all those kind of things and some clients do it with like
like safe backups of the metadata safe backups of your follow list repair your follow list all those
kind of things but it's more than just a client it should be just a background demon the
piece is missing though in some sense I mean there's depending on the noster the noster way is
pretty easy like what percent of your events are on which realizes me but it's always like to run
the data but it doesn't have to be sparked just grab it all and re-procast it it's free where I
but I mean like you still missing you still have to come up with the explanation of why to the user
I just built it for power users first don't you know you're overthinking it I feel like I would
use that in an answer not as a not as a selling point but like yeah it's like the it's like the
noster repair kit noster self-healing kit noster kind of wound cream you know like the noster plaster that
just fixes all the things that are a little bit annoying right now just have all these little
fucking cron jobs working in the background I don't care how you build it it should be incredibly
easy it's probably like with neck and the cron job you can do 95% of the things already probably
hungry but you need like I think that's that's back to uh if no one's gonna build it I'm gonna
build it myself you guys have 12 months like if it's not built in 12 months I'm gonna just rebuild it
and build it myself like I'm doing right now with highlighter shout out to Pablo fucking hell man
fucking build the highlight of myself but like it's it's it's the the piece it was missing was the
local relay in some sense because why for this for that stuff I'm talking about right now not
not really the technical piece it was missing because otherwise you have to rebuild everything
again like the like the the the rebroadcasting the no why I'm I'm not following because because I
it's very easy to just get my events from all the relays and then rebroad costos to others
just make sure that my stuff stays alive yeah yeah it's like it's like a lost her pacemaker
yeah yeah it's always starts with a good name just keep my stuff alive because it's a bit
broad it's a real thing relays going in and out of the of existence it's a real thing
loss of service going down is a real thing if you have a pacemaker in place it becomes easier
with a local relay or with local compute like in other words I start nine or an umbral
oh sure sure sure sure sure but this could be a paid service but it gets a lot more complicated
as a paid service like you see this with um what just because I'm gonna build it all as a paid
service just to prove you wrong why is it more complicated why is it so much more complicated
you you you you you you get an end-pub and as long as there's credits I'm gonna run the crown jobs
I'm gonna get the relays from the end-pub I'm gonna get the blossom service from the end-pub
very easy to do and I'm gonna rebroadcast periodically that's a very easy thing to do you can't do
set sense on I'm not talking about private key stuff I'm just talking about the public stuff keep
the data alive keep it fresh I think maybe it's just harder because when you never do paid
service you got you run into the temptation of like you want to provide more services to the user
and then you end up over-building yeah yeah no no that's like it's a simple synchronization
so yeah it's all it's needed it's just re-broadcasting re-broadcasting re re-uploading I mean it's like
it's kind of like it's yeah it's it's exactly that because it's like it's what um bouquet kind of
dead I'm like exactly just automated just just running it back just running in the back running in
the background automated yes exactly yeah that's what I want to have for for both for notes and for
blobs yeah all right good one productive outcome all right the idea is out there yeah
again the clock is ticking 12 months 12 months if it doesn't exist it's 12 months I'm going to
build it myself it's going to be Claude 6.5 and Claude 6.15 and it's going to it's going to build
itself basically just feed in feed in the transcript feed in this audio file and it's going to build it
isn't it funny though it's like that's literally how open source works it's like you have the idea
like a year before and it's like if this doesn't exist then I'm going to be the one to build it and
it's like everyone is it's it's it's it's it's a it's a game of chicken everyone's like
he's sitting on a small a small pile of time yeah yeah all of this needs to just I don't want to be
the one you exactly I don't want to maintain it I don't want to actually like crap yeah yeah
it's it's it's it's literally scratch your own itch and sometimes the itch is just increasing
it's just like you know it's just I don't want to scratch it's just yet but if it doesn't
also do it if it doesn't go away in like six months I'm gonna sit down and build it literally
literally yeah it's so funny it's so funny how about tell it that's like just what drives
almost all of open source it's how it works it's how it works and somehow it works that's what makes
it so beautiful all right good I'm glad we got to the through the local stuff and and all those
kind of things what else has been on your mind I've been using apple sauce by the way so that's
been good it's been a good experience so far I don't want to jinx it now but it's so far so far
things have worked I yeah I'm trying to figure out like it's it's the same kind of feeling I'm
getting with like no struggle like I'm trying to figure out why it works because like I have
strong preferences especially with like development stuff and you kind of see it like with no
sure like I'm strong preferences how I want the nosttock to work and then I'm trying to like like
while building it I'm trying to like reverse engineer and figure out why does this way work
like why not like um why do why do you why do you have that preference why do you like it in that
way yeah why yeah because like apple sauce is built like I have strong preferences which is like
one of the core ones like there is there should be no black boxes there should be nothing that you
don't know when it does but then of course that makes everything harder to put together because now
you have to man you like you can't just say instantiate me an app make me an app and won't just do it
because it doesn't know what like so like but it works oddly enough like if I just like have a hard
line we're like there's nothing that does multiple things or there's nothing that does like
something you don't know what it's doing I finally can't make things easier to understand I don't know
it feels right I mean it's it's it's modular by by by design then it's very modular by nature yeah
if you follow this principle then stuff has to be very modular yeah yeah right like I think that's
a good you know like monolithic black boxes are kind of an anti pattern but the weird thing is like
the monolith isn't really the problem because it's kind of turning into that like the applesauce like
like I'm finding that I'm recreating everything in applesauce sure you have to right
well in some way yeah but like there's no reason I couldn't integrate with other stuff
but then it isn't the problem because like always like swap other things in I mean other stuff will
have will follow different patterns right so that's why you don't necessarily necessarily want to do it
yeah I don't know yeah
the applesauce thing is an interesting that it's really just me scratching my itch again
there we go like it's just like I want this to exist I want to do things this way I want to figure
out if they even work this way and then I build it and then maybe it's too maybe it's too too
soon to say but like I feel like it's almost done famous last words I'll remind you again
really really but like it's interesting because like just this last
core like the last few weeks like I have gotten I have finished I built things into it that I've
wanted in Nostra since I started Nostra fantastic that's good and it's like it's it wasn't like
I finally got around to them it's that because like for example like the outbox model like trying
to eventually figure out like what is the best way to connect to the most relays without killing
the device yeah whatever the preferences are yeah how cool is it that we have outbox now
yeah and the but the weird thing is like the problem was really difficult before and now suddenly
no suddenly the problem is that it's more easier in some sense like like it was less there because
like I already had I don't know it's just a little building blocks I guess problem is still not
you just you just mentioned about kind of what you what you what you built the last couple of
weeks what what had you the most excited in some sense like you've we're in week six now so we're
at the end of the cohort and I wasn't full disclosure I wasn't there the the whole time for
private reasons and what excited I had a bunch of things that that really excited that came out
of this one but I want to I want to I want to have your opinion first like kind of what was the
most interesting stuff for you the waves are high and loud so that's going to be that's going to be
we're going to get I'm going to get a hate me again for the audio quality
it's nothing comes for free like those conversations you have to suffer through the bad audio
just how it's going to go it's my favorite place by the way this one
it's like it's this is sunrise it's it's this and there's another spot in right near the harbor
yeah I try to come like once a day if I can if I can manage and just you know jump in when there's
high tide oh yeah so awesome but yeah I mean we had we had we had awesome people here like you know
we had the routes the guys here you know Pete win and and many again like Jesus your cell phone
that's on and I mean I could the list goes on Justin and Paul and like many many super capable
super bright people and I feel tell me tell me if I'm maybe kind of you know if my my spidey
senses are kind of misguiding me but it feels to me that it's it's similar to with Bitcoin even
if you're super smart and super technical it takes a while until you really get it like what makes
it special what makes it so interesting and so on and it feels to me that more people we're
hitting a threshold like we're hitting an important tipping point now I feel like where a lot of
super smart people that come outside from from the nostril are finally starting to get nostril and
the peel of it and so I feel like a lot of a lot of interesting stuff is happening right now like
um but I'm again I'm not gonna name the examples I want I want you to go first
interesting stuff is happening right now yeah I do it's it's it's it's just
it's more like this this this projects but like it feels like the most interesting thing was that
the ideas kind of like the crazy ones but the ideas we talked about a year ago or the ideas
that people there's people have been talking about for like since nostril got created you you
know pick your how far back you want to go there's starting to be understood by
people with different backgrounds like it's like the ideas
oh like no it's not only the crazy people anymore it's actually the ideas become feasible
right because the technology moved ahead yeah I think it's that it's like somehow
I don't know that was the most satisfying thing this summer I was the so the things the things we
talked about are starting to be implemented by people who are not me in some sense are not
like super early adopters like like you know like a selfish project like I have to like I
understand everything but it's like it's like when your idea gets out yeah and then someone else
builds it yeah that's very sad yes and maybe they don't even understand it maybe they do
understand it but it was like yeah yeah they they they agree enough with that idea to actually
sit down and build it and go through the problem of implementing it which is a which is a good
signal and I think like there was a lot of like a lot of the stuff that was this time around
those implemented or thought about or experimented with their demo was crazy ideas that were like
partially talked about a few to like last time last year but now someone who wasn't part of that
conversation has now implemented it yeah yeah yeah yeah ideas are like getting built
as what's demo impressed you the most so far I mean there's been a bunch it's like five times
20 it's like 100 demos yeah it's not literally literally yeah
well remember the demos recently but like the two things stood out most that weren't my own
because I think about them is like the DNS idea yeah the node DNS there was an idea that we
kind of had like we discussed last time but we didn't understand what it was yeah and this time
around it's like oh it's obviously it's just this yeah it was just I just to replace just try to
replace DNS and just just do that no surveys then the main name resolution which means you don't
query a central server yeah 40 IP you let your social network tell you what the IP is yeah yeah
and then so you hit the web of trust and the web of trust results it for you was like the uh
I think Paul and Diane demoed it um last week was like the local cash you wallet on the system
also something Paul's are talking about it's like the what is the payment UX kind of like on a local
system and that kind of like it wasn't like so much the demo wasn't so much impressive as it was
just kind of like finally put software in front like made it click because like we always knew that
there's going to be like local wallets local money on the device yeah but it was kind of like no
one's built it yet really yeah and it it is different once you have it in your hands it's different
than when it's just an idea and you're just talking about it yes yeah it's it's very transformative
to actually see something and use something and and actually see how it looks and feels and have
it in your hand and play around with it it's very different it's a lot of demo days are so
transformational and it's the same feeling you get when you're like developing software it's like
once you have like yeah you can talk about how an API is going to work if you talk about how some
plugin things going to work but once you have it like running on your local machine and you start
messing with it you're like you can feel that you can build things with it yeah and it's not just
like some hypothetical like oh this will be possible yeah absolutely and then it takes on a life
of its own right that's that's that's to me one of the most interesting parts if the idea is
actually right it's it's it's gonna get traction like blossom is a great example like you it's just
it it has it's what you think about it and what you do with it doesn't even matter anymore no
so it's just like it it's it's completely subsufficient in that sense the ideas out there
lots of people are working on it and are excited about it and it's just it has its own kind of
character and it gets its own life it has its own life and so on so I that's I want to have more
of that and I think a lot of the things we we discussed the last couple weeks have this character
like you already mentioned and know the NS one we already have we already have two two competing
implementations basically of how to do how to do the NS with our essential point of failure
and without the shit coin of course or any of the of the misguided ideas that were tried in the past
and and yeah something I think something is bound to work something will work of of that sort
because it it kind of has to the main names are such a shit coin it's like not even funny
and it's it's that that that will also get worse like as censorship increases kind of worldwide
censorship too but it's just like inflation increases like every like all this domain name is
a few thousand dollars now yeah sure sure that as well that as well yeah it's and no one kind of
cares we were already graffiti artists don't put the domain names on their graffiti's they
point so they put social media handles right yeah and so we're already past domains and have been
for a long long long while yeah like the only reason like a lot like the only reason a lot of
domains exist is because they are the default way the default thing you type into web browsers to
get there yeah if you could just type in social media handles to web browsers domains will be
not gone well absolutely yeah you would just they would not this one we are building all right now
basically that's the idea right like that's that's that's the future we're heading into yeah and
there's people building their own browsers shout out to Justin yeah I'm not I'm not sure I'm not
sure how far he's going to make it but it's an ambitious project but something like that will work
it's like it's one of those things that that that's another project that feels like the starting
you know what let's turn around that's very noisy again and let's let's hit the lighthouse once more
and then I'm kind of out of steam anyway I think the coffee's running out
now 90 minutes or so is my max and we must be close to that because I'm I'm I can't feel like
I'm I'm I'm slurring my speech and my brain is slowing down and like all the coffees I had in
the in the morning there just they left my system burns quickly no but the yeah it feels like
that that's that idea like just the the local brat and then the local browser but like a new
kind of like vibe coded browsers independent browser independent browsers it feels like the
same thing but it's like it's the right direction but the why is not obvious and the how
is not out like not just clone chrome yeah I mean there isn't there is there what's it called
the project ladybird right something like that yeah you I mean right now you have two choices
and the ladybird guy wants to create a third choice in terms of what browser engine you run
it's very hard to do yeah it's very very hard to do but I I hope that this will remain to be
fruitful and I mean you know we can kind of pick up the pieces and and hopefully have like
I think that's where things are heading right we'll have a master browser in some sense we'll
have something that looks and feels very similar to current browsers and current systems but it
just but it's not going to be like not to put in a browser probably no it's it's it's it's it's
a different way of doing in internet infrastructure a different way of looking up things and
communicating and and kind of a different almost like a different communication pattern in
some sense just speaking purely from a how do apps on the internet communicate with each other
hey I mean it's probably just go right back to locals just get more local APIs and more
I don't even think we'll have APIs for example well I think APIs are on their way out local like like
they'll be something that we won't ever we haven't seen yet and maybe this is what makes
nostrups so interesting is there's almost like a across app communication running on like the user
system like a lot of what native apps have already done where one app can talk to another yeah in
other words like it there's not a server in between there's going to be a lot of that in those
nostrups where you don't talk to the server that talks to their app you just talk locally on the
local local relay some local infrastructure you just have to get the signed data to the app somehow
yeah it doesn't matter if it if you bounce it off a server or not and that's kind of the yeah
that's so we can shortcut a lot of things makes things easier to build easier to understand easier
to debug it's just yeah it's kind of funny is like I missed that part of the internet in some
sense but like it kind of goes back to the personal computer yeah and like it was in I guess in some
sense it was like it was like personally people was default local first yeah and then you would
synchronize your emails online yeah and you would go up then you would go on like it was kind of
back to what I talked about earlier was like it didn't try to solve offline to make it online like
it was offline first and online was something that enhanced yeah in the personal computer days you
were online sometimes yeah and now you're offline sometimes yes and we move from thin clients and
main frames to the personal computer revolution back to main frames again where it's just like
everything's on the server Facebook Twitter Google and so on and you have thin clients like a
Chromebook and now we've actually capable of phones and so on that are way more capable than
your personal computer in the 90s ever was and so I hope that we can move back to you know like
doing more things on device not relying on centralized service I think oh it's go it's going to
go that way in some way because I think you see it with some of the vibe coding stuff is that
it doesn't really like the vibe coding setup works better when it's just when it's local
when you just because if you try to if you set it up right if you do if you if you run your own
MCP tools and if you have your own context available locally all those kind of things yeah in the
sense of the AI ones but I mean like what you build what you build like if you have local APIs
they're just like you give here just like tell the AI you're working in this system there's local
APIs there's less code it has to write then it's like okay go build a server that's going to do
user management yeah yeah yeah yeah I see I see it's something like it's kind of what
Nostra's given developers in that sense where it's kind of what the browser gave developers before
the browser was a thing it was like here's here's APIs to you have to build less yeah and it feels
like it's kind of a slow mark towards that like now Nostra's like here's authentication so now
you don't have to build authentication here that's a that's a great point you actually have to
build less if you want to build like I don't believe in everything clients even though I am an
everything client user don't get me wrong like they they have their play sets on I really do
believe in specialized apps and I'm starting to build specialized apps now again like search was
the first one second one is going to be reading third one is going to be writing I can and I already
know that much the missing piece was those local APIs to build less because you I don't have to
care about hey you lost your password hey how do you create an account hey all those kind of
things I don't have to care about what database to use what kind of yes it's it's it's a very thin
layer and it allows you to build very powerful applications and what I'm actually going to go
really hard on next is something that actually came out of the second cohort I think and nip 60
and nip 61 like yeah Nostra native cashew wallets not steps and all that jazz because the nice
thing is like if you if the money follows you around you just log in and you have a little bit
of pocket money to you know do steps and do things and unlock stuff and so on and so I want to
I want that kind of it's a tube it's too big of a conversation to start now but the interesting
thing going forward is going to be seeing the play between nip 60 and Nostra wallet connect
like they're not directly opposed to each other but there's a there's a new one there's a
difference in the methodology like Nostra nip 60 is your your money will be able to be synchronized
wherever you are yeah Nostra wallet connect is a way to bring your money to wherever you are
yeah I yeah they have different like very the nuance like makes very different use cases
to me to me interesting like what I can I can tell you what analogy I use to me Nostra wallet
connect is like you're checking account in some sense you're your master card you have you with
you or what have you and nip 60 to me is literally coins in your pocket and your pocket might have a
hole yeah yeah and and and you just one day you're looking to your pocket and says only half the
money there because it's literally how nip 60 works it's just like it's just like your your
your balance is always kind of a lie sometimes you get more money there exactly that's that's like
fine finding spare change under the couch you know or you put on you put on the pants that were in
the corner of your room for a week and there's like oh there's a 20 in there wow nice and you can
just do whatever with it yeah so that's nip 60 to me and I just want to I want to build like
a dozen different like Mike Nostra micro apps and they all have nip 60 so that's and just do
like weird stuff that I always wanted to build I always wanted to have just like fun little things
so that's why I think I think this is like this is like again like back to kind of what we started
with was like now feels like where things are coming together and what we talked about before
is now being created which then opens up a whole bunch of other stuff that can be created
and something I thought about last week with like nip 60 was like nip 60 synchronization sucks
but the entropy does kind of work so does that actually fix like if you just slap like you make
a nip 60 wall the only thing it does is synchronize with nip entropy does that actually make it reliable
then let's find out it potentially more reliable it might actually work better and then you know
local first and you do all that stuff and that's how that's that's what's so nice about like the
second reason why I love Nostra it's like if you build it in the right way people all that out
every little improvement will make everything else work better so if we have local
delays if we have all those kind of things like you're your your your nip 60 wallet will be
become more reliable all those kind of things you know like it's like a nip 60 wall you put
searching it and then you have a local like boom now the search is better yeah oh yeah you
sold me on Nostra relay tray was it you I think or was it Jesus like someone just told me that
Nostra relay tray hasn't it 50 I did yeah there you go like I love it already things like
for getting it like you know it's like time goes on and like there's these things that like
Nostra relay tray project it's like I've used it for everything but I just forgot that other people
don't use it yeah sure and like like for me like that's the default in Nostra is like just I have
a relay running and I just connect to it and I just use it but like it's not the default always
and so kind of need to go back and like rediscover some of these things like repubble like that's
the one thing I want to work on either this week or I did a little bit last week was like I want
Nostra relay tray but I want it to be more of a standard so I can stop writing a database of
every single app and just make the app either connect my Nostra relay tray or fall back to a database
yeah and that's like one less piece I have to put let's one less piece I have to put in every
single app did you ever look into into Nostra DB from well because that's kind of his I that's
that's why he built it he wanted to have a Nostra native database that's super fast and just
but I need to put it here and I want to bridge it with that at some point where my use case is I
need it for the browser and Nostra relay tray is not in the browser it's next to the browser
just in just in things that you can kind of build a wrapper around it and bring it into the browser
in some way I talked to him about it briefly a couple weeks ago you can but he has some wizardry
that could make this happen potentially I looked into it a little bit like you can the Nostra
DB side you almost can okay but there's a bunch of like browser security and stuff but like the
thing is it doesn't need to be in the browser if it's already on your system it's kind of like
same thing but Nostra relay tray but it's also it's I mean that's still an issue you're assuming
desktop users yes but again we're like citrine of the phone like again this interesting thing
with like the the the local stuff is like there's almost a hundred different ways you can run local
yeah the issue is not where we can run it it's that we don't have an easy bridge to it that's
always there you don't have that assumption that oh I just I don't need to because the issue with
locals is there's like 20 different ways where you can run it and your app has to find it every
single time it has to find where like for example if I'm on my local system I'm broke that local
points to my humble but my app doesn't know that and it needs to find it or needs to probe and
then every time I have to do that so it's probably good enough to just put all these all these
strings in your local relay list and just if it fails it fails yes yeah it's probably good enough
it's probably a good enough solution yes because we have a list of local relays already yes
that you can attach to your profile and it's just like you can just define it just like search
relays we have like like yeah we do I'm if this lets you set it and I my search uses it
so you just like if the user search relays set I'm gonna use those search relays if the user has
local relays set I'm gonna use the local relays okay that would be an interesting thing I need to
look into that for my app but yeah so I'm trying to build like there's a dumb way of like
doing it but I want it ideally I think it can be bootstrapped and I think it can work is like
take the the Nippo 7 approach to it which is was just take the decision away from the app and just
make it provided by default let's go out into the wind to close it out it's like a tradition
have like very strong winds blast into the microphones it's actually the microphones
the microphones filter out the wind perfectly well what happens is usually people start screaming
because you can't hear each other because of the wind the microphones are fine but yeah I mean
I feel like a lot of the things are coming together and you just have to be patient it's just
it's amazing how far we've come so so Noster was like no offense to Fiat Jeff but Noster was
dog shit like three years ago like when he came around it was so bad it's it's actually really
good though yeah and we have video logs we have Noster native podcasts we have stuff with like it works
faster than x for me it's more reliable than any other social media already I know well I keep
clicking x lengths that are shared in like various Bitcoin groups I'm saying they're like 10 seconds
this loading and it's loading and it's probably verifying my browser or something but like it sucks
and then I open up Noster's like my stuff's right there exactly it's my I mentioned this in
in the past episode actually but it's my way of checking whether I'm connected to the internet or not
there's like I open a system I refresh yeah and it's like if if there's no new stuff I know I'm
offline yep that's how fast and how good it is it's just like yeah it's my it's it's replaced like
my random googling of random phrases to check if I'm online it's just like one swipe and I
immediately know whether I have connection now the local relays will actually kill that in some
sense it's gonna make it worse yeah it's gonna make it worse you think you're online but you're
actually still offline yeah it's gonna be glorious hazard it's gonna be so good it's gonna be so
good yeah it's already so good it's like it's everything's coming together it's all coming together
now we have the tools we can buy code stuff in like a week the stuff I'm gonna show on Friday
I started three days ago so it's gonna be a 10-day project basically only from midnight to like
1am by coding time more or less you know like I've caught a little bit in between but you know
I've kids and it's just like I don't have the time and it's gonna it's already great it's already
better than highlighter ever was and it's gonna like Pablo is gonna just be so jealous it's like how
great highlight I could have been yeah that's that's also a nice thing about Noster you can always go
back and still build it right like all the ideas that were around in the early days we can still
pick them up and actually make it work yeah yeah like the local blossom cash that was an idea from
the beginning of blossom you can still like just sit down right now just pull it out it's like you
could just recreate things and there's no there's no you'll never be locked out yeah yeah
and building it the second time around doesn't hurt anything exactly it doesn't like take away
from anything you can just know you just don't need to move there's nothing like it's a it's a very
Buddhist protocol just begin again you can just begin it's like the local computer it's like
like you don't need to re-implement the file system like if you make a better file manager
it doesn't hurt anybody it's just better it also it doesn't go away your windows 95 machine if
you still have it in the closet somewhere you can just boot it up it will still work still works
that's that's the good tech that's that's that's just you know or I mean the obvious the obvious
example is like you know like unique style systems like your Linux machine you just you never
have to reboot it you never have to upgrade it will always work and it just it just works like
so I keep I keep coming back to like Nostra being the Linux of social media in some sense and
given enough time it will just take over certain markets just like Linux took took over both the
server market and also the mobile market like with Android but but more than that even like
you know every fucking fridge every microwave everything every TV runs runs Android
yeah so yeah so I'm completely completely cooked you have any last words because I want
to end it in the wind yeah just space in there no sure we just leave it at that yeah I got that
that's my brain's turning off all right fantastic let's leave it at that give me a big hug fantastic
that was great let's see if we recorded look one one hour 25 that's that's how how good my my
world does 90 minutes 90 minutes Vegas so I