1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000
 Yeah, all kinds of stuff happens.

2
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,000
 Alright, so I'll pack this away and we'll see how it goes.

3
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:08,000
 Okay.

4
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,000
 It's a little bit...

5
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,000
 We'll be fine. We'll be fine.

6
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,000
 Yeah.

7
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,000
 Yeah, we'll be fine. We're usually fine.

8
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,000
 Okay.

9
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,000
 Alright.

10
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:18,000
 No disasters, yeah.

11
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,000
 No disasters, yeah.

12
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,000
 No catastrophic losses, yeah.

13
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:27,000
 I sometimes, again, have to dig into the mics and recover on device,

14
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,000
 like if some cable breaks or whatever, but it usually works.

15
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,000
 I want to point out something.

16
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,000
 Like we had some conversations the last couple of days,

17
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,000
 delightful conversations.

18
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:44,000
 And we, you know, like with everything from like skateboarding to metaphysics and so on.

19
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,000
 Like we'll, we'll hit, I think we'll hit a lot of these topics.

20
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,000
 Yeah.

21
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,000
 But you mentioned something that kind of has been stuck in my mind ever since.

22
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,000
 Is that, there's no such thing as the ship.

23
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,000
 No, maybe we'll get to that as well.

24
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,000
 No, no, no, that was as you could tell.

25
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,000
 It wasn't, that, that wasn't as impressive to me as you thought you would be.

26
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:12,000
 But you mentioned that two people really impressed you in terms of their humility.

27
00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,000
 And it was M. C. Escher.

28
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,000
 Yeah.

29
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,000
 And George Carlin, the comedian.

30
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 Yeah.

31
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 Like he...

32
00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,000
 Yeah, talking to me about that.

33
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:25,000
 Like why, what, what has you, why those two names and, and what,

34
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,000
 why are those people special to you?

35
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:32,000
 So I actually went to see Escher exhibition in Florence.

36
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,000
 Yeah.

37
00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:34,000
 Which was incredible.

38
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,000
 Yeah.

39
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,000
 And I actually didn't know he was a, he did wood cutting and life on the sea.

40
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,000
 I think a lot of people don't know that.

41
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:47,000
 It was just kind of nailed me because I was, it made it so many times harder to do.

42
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,000
 Yeah.

43
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,000
 And, and impressive.

44
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:54,000
 And afterwards I think I just went online and I read everything I possibly could about.

45
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,000
 Escher.

46
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,000
 Like everything.

47
00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,000
 And, and during that, there's actually a really good website I comment with.

48
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,000
 It was cool, but it had a lot of stuff.

49
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,000
 Yeah.

50
00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:12,000
 And one of them is that he, he didn't know why he was so obsessed with doing wood cutting

51
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,000
 or lifeography.

52
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:19,000
 But every day he woke up so thankful and blessed that that's what he wanted to do.

53
00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,000
 So he, he understood that, you know, there's something outside of him that,

54
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:29,000
 that, that blessed him with this need and that he wasn't just pure self-determination.

55
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,000
 Yeah.

56
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:36,000
 And I think a lot of people in the world today really think that they are the, the total of

57
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 their decisions.

58
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,000
 They're fully self-determined.

59
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,000
 Yeah, exactly.

60
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:45,000
 And I think that one of the things that comes out of those, when you see people that are

61
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 down and out or homeless and things, those people see, those people was, you made bad decisions.

62
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,000
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

63
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:59,000
 And I guess for me, and it's also part of, I guess, my identity as well.

64
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,000
 But yeah, for me that just, this is like the, one of the highest marks of a human.

65
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,000
 Yeah.

66
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,000
 Yeah, to understand that you didn't make everything happen in your life.

67
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,000
 But you should be thankful when it's good.

68
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,000
 Yeah.

69
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,000
 And George Carlin was definitely thankful for the life you've been given.

70
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 Yeah.

71
00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,000
 Or, you know, being given might not be the right thing.

72
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,000
 Yeah, so I think those are the last few people that I saw doing that.

73
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,000
 Yeah.

74
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,000
 And when I saw it, I just remember that instantly because I do know, it just means a lot to see

75
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 people.

76
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,000
 There are people like that.

77
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,000
 Yeah.

78
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,000
 Yeah.

79
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:37,000
 No, I think, I think the, the best people realized that like also like the, the people were still

80
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 talking about like someone like whatever, and Marcus Aurelius and those kind of people.

81
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,000
 Yeah.

82
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:48,000
 Like, and they will often point out that, you know, jobs interestingly enough was one of

83
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,000
 these people as well.

84
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,000
 I know, I know you don't think too highly of him, but he would, he would often point out

85
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,000
 that, I'm willing to do it wrong.

86
00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:03,000
 You, you, like, remember that like you're using a language that you didn't invent, for example.

87
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000
 Like the English language, like you had nothing to do with it.

88
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,000
 Like, and, and like all those, all those kinds of things.

89
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:16,000
 Like he would, he would point it out over and over again that there is a lot of things that

90
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:22,000
 you didn't create and that, that you have to, like the right, or the right attitude for

91
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,000
 that is, uh, thankfulness.

92
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:31,000
 And I think that's, um, something that we as a society have kind of lost in some sense.

93
00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,000
 Like in, in, uh, especially like in the, in the postmodern era, right?

94
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,000
 Like it's, it's, it's all everything that came before is evil and like white man evil

95
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,000
 and like, you know, like Western civilization evil and so on.

96
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,000
 And, uh, like the thankfulness is gone in some sense.

97
00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:47,000
 Yeah.

98
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:53,000
 And, and so I appreciate when people kind of take the opposite route and bring that back.

99
00:04:53,000 --> 00:05:00,000
 And, and, um, I mean, I definitely had my own journey of,

100
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,000
 finding a renewed appreciation for tradition, for example.

101
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:05,840
 >> Yeah, me too.

102
00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:07,240
 >> For traditional values and it's on.

103
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:08,080
 >> Yeah, absolutely.

104
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:09,640
 >> Yeah, yeah, no, I imagine.

105
00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:14,440
 So, yeah, I feel like also in the summer

106
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,000
 and engineering context that's in part what's happening as well

107
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,440
 because the early internet pioneers,

108
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 they had very radical ideas about how networking

109
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:28,600
 should be structured, for example.

110
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 You know, like the end to end principle,

111
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 all those kind of things.

112
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,280
 And like, how can you build a decentralized network

113
00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:36,400
 that doesn't instantly turn evil, you know?

114
00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,640
 And I feel like we're in the business now

115
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,640
 in part of trying to re-vivify that tradition

116
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,960
 and kind of like, how can we build systems?

117
00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,600
 And how can we build networks that don't turn evil instantly?

118
00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,240
 You know, like that's kind of one of the things.

119
00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,240
 And one thing I wanna point out is

120
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,120
 you come from the design side.

121
00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,760
 And yesterday I tried to talk to everyone on the ship.

122
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:06,600
 >> Yeah.

123
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,440
 >> And your name must have come up, I don't know,

124
00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,000
 like half a dozen, two dozen times.

125
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,040
 Like everyone was very happy that you, you know,

126
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:19,040
 jumped in and made lots of their projects more appealing

127
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 from the UI, UX side and so on.

128
00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,080
 From the storytelling side and so on.

129
00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,560
 And so talk to me about that, like how come you ended up

130
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,520
 in that area and how come you ended

131
00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:31,720
 and developed in Sovereign Engineering

132
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,240
 in the first place, like both of these basically.

133
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,920
 >> So how we ended up with designer.

134
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:37,760
 >> Yeah.

135
00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:41,440
 Guess.

136
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,240
 >> My first kind of love was chefing.

137
00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:48,080
 >> Chefing?

138
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:48,920
 >> Yeah.

139
00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,800
 >> Yeah, you were a chef, there's some, there's some.

140
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,240
 >> Yeah, for some time.

141
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,320
 >> There's some, there's some big concept.

142
00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:55,640
 >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

143
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,080
 I started when I was 13.

144
00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,400
 It was actually because of health.

145
00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,600
 I was eating something and I was like,

146
00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,640
 what the hell was in this?

147
00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:05,480
 Yeah.

148
00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:06,720
 And then my reaction to that was like,

149
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,640
 I want to know what's in my food.

150
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,920
 So I'm going to make it for scratch.

151
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:11,760
 >> Interesting.

152
00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,120
 >> So that helped you develop paste, I assume.

153
00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:15,280
 >> Yeah, it helped me.

154
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,160
 Presentation was a big thing.

155
00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:18,000
 >> Okay.

156
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:18,840
 >> Yeah.

157
00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:23,320
 >> And I asked my mom how to cook an omelette,

158
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,120
 then I cooked omelette for three months.

159
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:26,200
 >> Yeah, exactly.

160
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:27,040
 >> In a way imaginable.

161
00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:28,360
 >> It's a hard skill to master,

162
00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,120
 as any French chef will tell you.

163
00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:31,800
 (laughing)

164
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,840
 So yeah, I don't know if it's clear.

165
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:38,760
 >> But I think an aspect of that was like really,

166
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,040
 like design, like thinking about how the food

167
00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,440
 is going to fit together and look for them.

168
00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:44,800
 I was going to taste together.

169
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:45,620
 >> Yeah.

170
00:07:45,620 --> 00:07:46,460
 >> It's not that far off.

171
00:07:46,460 --> 00:07:47,280
 >> Yeah.

172
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,040
 >> I'm sure like it's an absolute connection,

173
00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,480
 but that was my first kind of creative outlet, I think.

174
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:53,320
 >> Yeah.

175
00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:55,320
 >> And then,

176
00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,720
 I was actually, so I was into computers.

177
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:01,560
 I thought they were amazing.

178
00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,320
 I was into the internet.

179
00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,080
 I remember asking my mom that I could have the internet.

180
00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,000
 She was like, what the hell would you do the internet for?

181
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,560
 (laughing)

182
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,000
 But I don't know where I picked it up,

183
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,140
 I'd read it somewhere, you know, before everyone had it.

184
00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,040
 And now she became the biggest internet user ever.

185
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,960
 And so yeah, I was into early internet, early computers.

186
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,240
 So I decided not to go to the last two years in school,

187
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,480
 in my country, you do your A-leveled in school.

188
00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,280
 I decided to go to college,

189
00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,120
 which is a bit of a lesser grade by men.

190
00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,120
 I could do computers.

191
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:41,960
 >> Yeah.

192
00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,360
 >> And during that, all I did was break out and strike

193
00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,560
 over the bag with everyone then.

194
00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:49,800
 >> One more commonality.

195
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,760
 >> Yeah, but I literally want to just like switch between

196
00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,280
 screens when the teachers say.

197
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,240
 >> When did you start, when the version did you start on?

198
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,760
 >> I actually started on the first version.

199
00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,680
 >> So I hated it because I didn't understand

200
00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:04,320
 there was recoil.

201
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,400
 >> But that was because there was, so one point O.

202
00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:09,240
 >> Yeah.

203
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,520
 >> Okay, yeah, because there was zero point seven beta

204
00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,040
 and like there was some conversion.

205
00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,360
 >> Oh no, I didn't know about that.

206
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:15,840
 >> Might have been that, I'm not sure.

207
00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,640
 Because it started as a half-life.

208
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,080
 >> I was a half-life.

209
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,080
 >> So that was still when it was a half-life mod, right?

210
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,040
 And yeah, yeah, yeah, because I remember the first version

211
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,920
 you had the sideload, like you had to actually run scripts

212
00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:29,440
 in the console to make it work.

213
00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:30,280
 >> Oh, maybe not.

214
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,680
 >> The weapons would stay, no, that was pre-1.0.

215
00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:36,080
 There was in the beta days.

216
00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:36,920
 >> I think it was in 1.7.

217
00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,040
 >> And the weapons would remain on the ground,

218
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:42,600
 between rounds.

219
00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,800
 So if you would die with an op somewhere.

220
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,440
 >> Yeah, you know, and you respawn,

221
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:49,840
 you could run to the spot in the ground.

222
00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:50,680
 >> Oh wow.

223
00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:51,520
 >> Like that was very, very early days

224
00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:52,360
 because I was playing.

225
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:53,200
 >> I was thinking it would be 1.0.

226
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:54,880
 >> I was playing a half-life test match

227
00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:55,720
 before I was playing console.

228
00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:56,880
 >> Oh, I was too, yeah.

229
00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,080
 >> Half-life was, yeah, blew my mind when I came.

230
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,000
 I thought it was incredible, like you've always loved that game.

231
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,000
 - Fantastic.

232
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:05,000
 - Yeah, so it's a hard one.

233
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,000
 - It brings back memories.

234
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,000
 So you were doing that in college.

235
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,000
 - Yes.

236
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,000
 - Because the computers were networked, right?

237
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,000
 - Yeah, yeah.

238
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,000
 - Alrighty.

239
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,000
 - Yeah, exactly.

240
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,000
 When everyone stopped playing across it, I was like, "I'm sad."

241
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,000
 So I just started playing online, so it's just me carrying on.

242
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,000
 I think everyone actually got to do their work.

243
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,000
 - Yeah, I see.

244
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,000
 - But then the first interesting thing came up.

245
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:34,000
 It was a website module, which I found interesting for some reason.

246
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,000
 I'm not sure why.

247
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:42,000
 It was just, you know, to make a website was basically the program for that module.

248
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,000
 - Okay, I see.

249
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:48,000
 - And just at the very same time, I found out about Macromedia Flash.

250
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:49,000
 - Nice.

251
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,000
 - And, yeah, just went on to advance studios.

252
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,000
 - Yeah.

253
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,000
 - Yeah, two advance, it must have been two advance here.

254
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,000
 Two advance studios website.

255
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,000
 - I don't know about that.

256
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,000
 - Oh, they were like the kings of Flash back in the day.

257
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,000
 - Okay.

258
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,000
 - Like they had just had flagship websites.

259
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,000
 People would wait for them to update their own website.

260
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:12,000
 - I remember these websites, so I probably know some of their work, but I don't know the studio behind them.

261
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,000
 I know there was one or two individuals that were really, really good.

262
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,000
 - That's really kind of fun.

263
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,000
 - Okay.

264
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:23,000
 But it was the website where you would like wait like for five minutes to load, and there was like awesome loading bar progress animations.

265
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,000
 - Oh, like everything was animated there.

266
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,000
 - Yeah.

267
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,000
 - Sounds like it was, I mean.

268
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,000
 - Yeah, it was a multimedia experience.

269
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,000
 - Yeah, yeah.

270
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,000
 - For sure.

271
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:38,000
 - I think it must have been that when I saw that, one of my friends showed me, oh, blew me away, and I was like, I wanted to make websites.

272
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,000
 - Yeah, I see.

273
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,000
 - Yeah.

274
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:48,000
 - But my website, making very much started in animation, and like a lot of very like heavy kind of graphical stuff.

275
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,000
 - Yeah.

276
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,000
 - As opposed to like later, just very static.

277
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,000
 - Yeah, sure, sure.

278
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,000
 - So you know all about like, keyframes and...

279
00:11:54,000 --> 00:12:05,000
 - Yeah, and I figured it out for myself, because I've always been quite old to a didactical to my sort of benefit, but also sometimes not beneficial.

280
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,000
 - Yeah.

281
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:20,000
 - So by figuring out how to do logical things on flash for myself, helped really like gave me a good foundation of logically how to do things, rather than just knowing.

282
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,000
 - Yeah.

283
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:32,000
 - I think sometimes if you figure things out, you can learn like a more foundational grasp of it, because you used your own mind to work out rather than someone else's information.

284
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:43,000
 But yeah, I think that that's what made me the designer am, and I see other designers that were flash designers that we got to start with, and you can always tell.

285
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,000
 - Mm-hmm.

286
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,000
 - But with the...

287
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,000
 - Yeah.

288
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,000
 - With the vibe coding or whatever.

289
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,000
 - Yeah.

290
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,000
 - You can read...

291
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,000
 - Designers can do that again, I think.

292
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,000
 - Yeah, without using flash.

293
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,000
 - Yeah, yeah.

294
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,000
 - Yeah, yeah.

295
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,000
 - Flash was very dynamic.

296
00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,000
 - Yeah.

297
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,000
 - Like there was also lots of people were doing games in flash, right?

298
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,000
 Like there were a lot of...

299
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,000
 - Like...

300
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,000
 - Now a quasi-famous.

301
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,000
 - Yeah, that's nice to make the game.

302
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:12,000
 - But famous flash games, because it was dynamic and programmable enough that you could actually build games in it.

303
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,000
 - Yeah, Newgrounds or something.

304
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:19,000
 - Yeah, Newgrounds got big on flash and so on, and it's still around as far as I know.

305
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:20,000
 - Yeah.

306
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,000
 - Or like at least an archived version of it or something.

307
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,000
 - Yeah, they even had series, flash series.

308
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,000
 - Yeah.

309
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,000
 - Like...

310
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,000
 - Oh, what's it called? The guy with the rusty spoon.

311
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,000
 - Oh.

312
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,000
 - That's salad fingers?

313
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,000
 - Yeah.

314
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,000
 - That was it?

315
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,000
 - Yeah, I think that started with flash series, so you actually watched it in flash.

316
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,000
 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

317
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,000
 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

318
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,000
 That was back in the very weird internet days.

319
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,000
 - Yeah.

320
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,000
 - Like...

321
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,000
 - Yeah, almost all of the internet was very weird.

322
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,000
 It was only weirdos.

323
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,000
 - Yeah.

324
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,000
 - Yeah.

325
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,000
 - I don't actually remember a lot of it.

326
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,000
 I think that might have been traumatized.

327
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,000
 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

328
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,000
 That's how the brain works.

329
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,000
 There's some things to it traumatic.

330
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,000
 It just really, you know.

331
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,000
 - Oh.

332
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,000
 - Put it somewhere where you don't...

333
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,000
 - Yeah.

334
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,000
 - Where you can't access it easily.

335
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,000
 - Totally.

336
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,000
 There's a couple of things where I'm not even going to mention the websites, because I don't...

337
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,000
 - Yeah, no, let's not.

338
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,000
 - ...even the name is just horrible.

339
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,000
 - That's not...

340
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,000
 - That's not...

341
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:10,000
 - The Clank Run will auto link stuff.

342
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,000
 Like, what's not risky?

343
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,000
 - Oh, yes.

344
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:17,000
 - All right, so you came from the flash side.

345
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,000
 And explain that some more what you just said at the end there.

346
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,000
 - Yeah.

347
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:28,000
 - That now thanks to my coding and not having to write, you know, CSRS and JavaScript and everything else by hand.

348
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,000
 - Yeah.

349
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:35,000
 - As a designer, you can go back to the flash days in some sense, or back to this way of doing it.

350
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,000
 Like, like, put some more meat on that bone.

351
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,000
 - Yeah.

352
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:44,000
 - I think that, I think, mainly, you can do some unreasonable things, because normally you'd have...

353
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,000
 As a designer, you'd have a fun guy doing the implementation.

354
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,000
 - Yeah.

355
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,000
 - And if I gave them my ideas, like...

356
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,000
 - Yeah, it would just be cost prohibitive.

357
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,000
 Like, it would be way too expensive to do.

358
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,000
 - Yeah, and I don't think that...

359
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,000
 ...that do them as well as I could.

360
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:08,420
 So like, I've like, yeah, yeah, yeah, because you implement it once you once you remove design and implementation the guy who implements it doesn't have the

361
00:15:08,420 --> 00:15:13,380
 I for the design and we'll get some of the details wrong. Yeah, I'm not in my life for quite a while. Yeah.

362
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,560
 Quite a while. Yeah. Ever since

363
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:29,300
 Since the models it only stopped very recently now we have models that are good enough where you can actually as a designer prompt them and

364
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:36,420
 It will just work and you can iterate until you're happy from the same perspective, right? Yeah a couple of times it might literally

365
00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:45,120
 Make a banger straight away. Yeah, but not often it's not like consistent. Yeah, but like it's really like polishing a stone

366
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:51,400
 Yeah, absolutely as a diamond. Yeah, and like I think a lot of people will give up. Yeah sooner than I do

367
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:56,320
 Yeah, I'll just keep on going until it's a diamond. Absolutely at the end. Yeah

368
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,040
 Yeah, like so it's not always easy. Yeah, but I mean it's incredibly easy and

369
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:07,960
 That's that's what that's what I've wrote about this recently like the last the last I don't know

370
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:14,960
 18 months or so have been the bane of my existence because I'm just I developed an allergy

371
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:24,120
 For LLM slop. I mean for you as a as a design. I must be the same for me. It's mostly brighting like like words words

372
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:31,200
 and and paragraphs are something I really care about hey, hey, I know it is and it's just like

373
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,440
 It happens

374
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,480
 And the frequent like it started happening like 18 months ago

375
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:41,000
 So maybe a little longer than that but now absolutely like no one writes anymore

376
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:47,520
 It's all just it's all just like vibe slop like clouds like writer whatever article about the thing

377
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,520
 I just did and and

378
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:55,520
 The polishing is completely absent like it's just it's just one shot and because people aren't writers and they don't know anything about

379
00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:02,520
 Sentence structures or words or paragraphs or whatever. They'll just read through it once or glance at it once and it's like oh

380
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:08,120
 It's great. It's just like hit post, you know, and it's just everything slop. I hate it so much

381
00:17:11,360 --> 00:17:13,360
 It will just get worse

382
00:17:13,360 --> 00:17:15,360
 outside of like social

383
00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:21,960
 Like lost to social media and things that like are you talking about particular places where this happens like and

384
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,440
 like yeah mainstream blog posts of

385
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,640
 Companies also. Oh really all kinds of things all kinds of stuff and maybe maybe

386
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,360
 They write the first paragraph themselves or so maybe also the second

387
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,120
 But then it's just like it's let's say it's a three-page thing

388
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:45,920
 The rest is all slop. Yeah, and so then once I hit the slot by can immediately tell and I just like you know, I

389
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,760
 I'm gonna throw up in my mouth and close the tap close the tap

390
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:56,360
 That's just what's what's gonna happen. Yeah, so you must have had a similar experience also on the design side

391
00:17:56,360 --> 00:18:04,240
 Right because it's just like you can immediately tell if there's an M-slop for design as well. Yeah, there's funnily enough to think that

392
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,040
 there's actually, you know, Claude OpenClaw, sorry and

393
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:16,560
 I mean, whoever have their own design. Yes. Yeah, absolutely instantly see yeah some of them really like the pittles

394
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:22,800
 Yeah, you know some of them really like the border. They like the color of their own website. Yeah, like I think

395
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:29,360
 Yeah, but OpenClaw website often looks like all their websites that they make yeah, but like they have this weird

396
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,280
 penchant for

397
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:39,040
 Extremely small text. Yeah. Yeah, and I've talked to some people and they say I'll excuse they come guys. I was like I'm not sure that's the direct reason

398
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:45,000
 No, like they can't see it or they or they can read it themselves rather. Yeah

399
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:53,600
 Think about human needing to read it. Yeah. Yeah, that's the issue right? All the lambs aren't humans and so they have a hard time. Yeah

400
00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:02,560
 Understanding like really truly properly understanding what they produce. That's also why the arrows that they make are so peculiar, you know, yeah

401
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,920
 Like they don't have our

402
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:14,440
 Well, you know my favorite guy John Vervaeke would say they don't have our salient slatscape like they don't they don't understand how it is

403
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:21,020
 To be a human what it means to be a human and what we care about and that's kind of the it's my issue with the

404
00:19:21,020 --> 00:19:24,040
 LLM slop stuff and that's that relates to what you said about polishing

405
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,600
 polishing the stone is

406
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,840
 It's all done without care. Yeah, like my criticism on the LLM slop is not that you used

407
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,960
 That you used an LLM to do your things. I use LLM's as well to do my things

408
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:44,360
 But if you do something you I assume you're doing it with care. Yeah, and you're producing like where you're spending

409
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,800
 Way more time creating the artifact then it takes me to consume it

410
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,040
 Yeah, and that's like that's that's the imbalance with where I'm very unhappy about it

411
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:59,920
 The boy was just like it for some people won't take them like 10 seconds to write the blog post or create the app

412
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,440
 or create the UI or whatever it is.

413
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,080
 And like the 10 seconds of care versus me needing like,

414
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,920
 you know, 45 minutes to decipher it.

415
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,800
 Or like I'm not gonna spend the time,

416
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,720
 but if you would want to decipher it,

417
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,400
 that's the amount of time you would need.

418
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,520
 - Yeah, I think it's kind of funny

419
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,960
 because I imagine there's more content

420
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,120
 and less people were actually reading it.

421
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:24,600
 So like I think that's probably a massive portion

422
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,760
 of stuff being created completely uselessly.

423
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,520
 Like it's not needed and I was gonna read it,

424
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,800
 and you know, I need to take no time to do it.

425
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:34,960
 - Yeah, yeah.

426
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,880
 - But yeah, I agree with you there.

427
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,880
 I think it reminded me of one of my first eureka moments

428
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,400
 as a child who I actually also was into drawing.

429
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:48,120
 So, and I remember learning very young

430
00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:52,160
 that if I take more time drawing it,

431
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:53,680
 the outcome is better.

432
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,680
 (laughing)

433
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,640
 It sounds silly, but I was just young.

434
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,000
 And I was like, it was my first like experimentation.

435
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,000
 I was like, oh, if you take more time,

436
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,320
 you can't expect things to look good or be good.

437
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,160
 - Yeah, there's a correlation there.

438
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:07,520
 - There's a time in that.

439
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:08,520
 (laughing)

440
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,400
 So I think the same with this.

441
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,440
 It's amazing that I can, you know,

442
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,400
 create the design of a website

443
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,000
 and update an existing development

444
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,960
 or a new website in like a week.

445
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:22,800
 - Yeah.

446
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,040
 - But yeah, like the more--

447
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,480
 - But you need to do the polishing, right?

448
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:26,720
 - Yeah, like that's the issue.

449
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,720
 It's like you have to go through hundreds and hundreds

450
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,000
 and hundreds of iterations.

451
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,280
 It's like you tweak a little thing there

452
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:34,520
 and then you do it again

453
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,320
 and then it doesn't match with the other thing you did before

454
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:38,680
 until you have to tweak it again.

455
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,440
 And that's kind of, yeah.

456
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,440
 - Yeah, I tried to say like handcrafted with AI.

457
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,840
 'Cause I think, I get worried that some people think

458
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,920
 that bottom wasn't me, it was the AI.

459
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,840
 It's like, no, I really like go into every detail.

460
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:54,680
 - Yeah.

461
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,320
 - And I'm in it for me.

462
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:57,160
 - Yeah.

463
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,200
 - And all of the animation and the states

464
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:00,120
 and all these things.

465
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:00,960
 - Yeah.

466
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,720
 - And so I'm not gonna lie, sometimes it will do something

467
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,880
 magical, just like, you know, a little piece of it

468
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,320
 or do something in a way that I didn't expect it to be

469
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,440
 but it's actually an interesting new direction.

470
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:13,280
 - Yeah.

471
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,120
 - You know.

472
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,440
 - Yeah, to me it's like someone made the comparison

473
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,960
 to it being like power tools, you know?

474
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:19,800
 - Yeah.

475
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:20,960
 - You say you're wood carving.

476
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,760
 And the fact that you're using power tools,

477
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,280
 it might be offensive to some, you know,

478
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,400
 very classical, everything done by hand would cover.

479
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:30,240
 - Yeah.

480
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,880
 - But if you, you know, whatever, like you take drift wood

481
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,080
 or what have you and make awesome artwork out of it

482
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,200
 and you use power tools for it, so be it.

483
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,760
 There's still lots of love and there's still lots of skill

484
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,840
 and lots of taste involved, you know?

485
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,880
 And that's actually something I wanted to talk with you

486
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:54,320
 about, like the, because you mentioned it on the,

487
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:55,600
 I think it was on the ship.

488
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,360
 I don't know, the days all blurred together

489
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:02,360
 but then our visual cortex is so predominant.

490
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,240
 Actually our, and it's again,

491
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:07,280
 where Vervaeke would point this out.

492
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:12,280
 Like it's interesting that we talk about taste

493
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,720
 when it comes to deciding whether something

494
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:16,720
 is really good or not.

495
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,520
 Like the metaphors we use are so interesting.

496
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:21,880
 - Yeah, yeah.

497
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,120
 - It's like, it's very good to be with eating, right?

498
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,280
 - Exactly, and also like eating and like tasting

499
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,520
 and smelling are very close together.

500
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,520
 And like to have a nose for something is another metaphor,

501
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,920
 you know, that shows you how close together

502
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,360
 these things are.

503
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:39,960
 And so, so.

504
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,400
 - That one seems more like knowledge

505
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,200
 or information rather than visual things

506
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,520
 or food having a nose or something.

507
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,160
 - Yeah, yeah.

508
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,000
 - Yeah, essentially.

509
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:50,840
 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

510
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,680
 No, no, there's definitely a difference.

511
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,280
 There's definitely a difference.

512
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,280
 - But it's more intuitive in some sense, I think, you know?

513
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,280
 Like it's more having a taste for something.

514
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:08,280
 It's also, it speaks directly to when you taste something,

515
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,120
 you're in direct contact with it.

516
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:17,480
 And the thing becomes a part of you.

517
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:18,600
 - Yeah, okay, yeah.

518
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,920
 - So it's not one way, it's two ways, you know?

519
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:21,760
 - Yeah, it's like.

520
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,800
 - And with side, like there is more distance,

521
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,960
 the contact is not as direct.

522
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:29,800
 - Yeah.

523
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,800
 - And, you know, like, like, that, you know, I mean,

524
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:36,560
 it's a similar thing, a similar idea.

525
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:37,720
 Like if you stare in the abyss,

526
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,840
 the abyss was there back into you.

527
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,120
 Like this stuff will happen too.

528
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:43,160
 But with taste, it's very obvious that,

529
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,880
 the stuff that you're tasting becomes a part of you.

530
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,480
 And also your taste will develop,

531
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,800
 and suddenly you can develop a taste for things

532
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,720
 and have a more refined taste that something,

533
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:56,560
 - That's a quiet taste.

534
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,280
 - And a quiet taste, something that would repose you,

535
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:00,280
 or would repose you.

536
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,560
 some people you can suddenly start to differentiate and so on and so forth.

537
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:10,400
 So yeah, I think, again, I've been thinking a lot about these types of

538
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:16,260
 metaphors and so on because kind of what I think on the

539
00:25:16,260 --> 00:25:25,640
 Sovereign Engineering side, in part what I see happening is that the people that

540
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,400
 are attracted by it, they have a taste for freedom in some sense. They have

541
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,680
 tasted it somehow somewhere, oftentimes through the negative, through being

542
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:40,240
 the banked or the platformed, those kind of things. And I feel like on the

543
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,400
 internet side at least, like the classical internet, the legacy internet,

544
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,800
 has completely lost this. So to me it's a lot of, let's maybe,

545
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:57,720
 either let's wait a little bit. Okay, sorry. That's the downside of having

546
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,080
 microphones on, like noise will just happen. But how do you think about that

547
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:13,800
 in terms of, because you talk to me about kind of the human brain is so

548
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,680
 focused on sight, on the sense of sight. Yeah, light really. And also our

549
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,240
 information is really light, right? Because it's the easiest, most

550
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:31,320
 programmable, so programmable, propagandizable. Yeah. I'd say, I don't know what

551
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:36,080
 you'd call it, like, yeah, receptor. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why we've watched TVs

552
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,840
 and all day long. And that's why you've got big TV adverts. And it's just like,

553
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:46,600
 they haven't figured out how to attack our factory system. Yeah, yeah. And maybe

554
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,880
 it wouldn't even be worthwhile. Yeah. But it does, it does make us very much

555
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,200
 focused on that. And I think we've lost completely lost our fact ability to use

556
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:03,760
 our factory system. Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, it's, and I think, I think,

557
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:09,400
 like, you know, if you've got a dog, you understand, like you try to, you sometimes

558
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,600
 anthropomorphize them, so you just see them as their eyes and that's how they're

559
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:19,480
 doing it. But they're not good like, you know, I saw, yeah. And like, so many things

560
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:25,120
 are very much, you know, using smell. And we come from that too. But I think in

561
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:30,640
 this modern kind of way we experience life and where it's when we need to

562
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:37,440
 experience it, you know, you just you lose those. Oh, absolutely. They become

563
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,800
 on sharp. You have absolutely. Because an I very much for a period became very

564
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,120
 much focused on that. I like so my personal experience is that it can be

565
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:52,680
 really interesting and important. But yeah, I think mostly it's because the

566
00:27:52,680 --> 00:28:00,240
 easiest way to program or get to people is through light. So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's

567
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,880
 yeah. I mean, it's interesting how different the senses are because nothing

568
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,520
 will transport you back to childhood, but like the smell of your house. Exactly.

569
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:15,360
 Yeah. Powerful with that. Yeah. And like a photo of the house won't do it won't do

570
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,760
 the same thing. But if you actually enter and smell smell the smell that you're

571
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,880
 instantly back. So there is a massive difference in the way of how it

572
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,680
 registers in the brain. Yeah, like that's for sure. Yeah, how crazy is that?

573
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:35,240
 Yeah, I mean, we're living in very interesting times because there is also

574
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,280
 the people that just try to leave the modern world behind in some sense. You

575
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,440
 know, go to the jungle, stop wearing perfume, stop wearing the other end. Like

576
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,960
 we'll only put anything on their skin that they can also eat, you know, like

577
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:54,760
 those kind of things. Yeah. And all the senses will quite soon come back. Like

578
00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:02,760
 like you will develop a very different smell and taste for people. Yeah. And I

579
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,640
 mean, they run these experiments as well, right? I think there was a TV show in

580
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,240
 ones where like like a dating TV show where the contestants won't even see

581
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:14,080
 each other. But they would just like they would get a t-shirt that the guy wore

582
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,800
 for half a day. Yeah. And they would smell it. And that would be the matchmaking.

583
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:25,240
 Yeah. And it's amazing how well it works. Like biology has figured out a lot of

584
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:30,040
 things. It's way smart. That's the thing about biology. It's way it's way smarter

585
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,040
 and way more wise than we ever will be. And I think it's true for language as

586
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,000
 well. Like there's more wisdom embedded in language than in any single person. Yeah.

587
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,600
 My favorite quote that kind of sums up has always been if the brain was so

588
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:48,280
 simple that we could understand it, we'd be so simple that we couldn't. Yeah. There you

589
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:54,080
 go. Or like Alan Watts would say the light doesn't know itself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

590
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,360
 Or the thing I can't punch itself. Yeah. Yeah. Those kind of things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

591
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,040
 No, that's how it goes. And that's also

592
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:12,400
 So why every, why every, and I think that relates to your expertise, like every, there is, there is no touching without being touched.

593
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:13,500
 Yeah.

594
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:15,800
 And like it's always two ways.

595
00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:23,000
 And so if you present something visually, for example, yeah, it also does something to you.

596
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:24,700
 The way you do it.

597
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:27,700
 Like if you, if you sculpt the work, the work also does something to you.

598
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,000
 There is no, there is no creation without also being created.

599
00:30:31,700 --> 00:30:32,300
 Absolutely.

600
00:30:32,300 --> 00:30:37,200
 You know, like you can't create anything without transforming yourself, basically, in some way, shape or form.

601
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:45,300
 And I think that's also something like this, this perspective is something that we've lost in general, where it's just, I don't know.

602
00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:47,900
 Like if you talk to marketing people, for example, they don't see it that way.

603
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:53,800
 I would say, by and large, I don't want to be unfair to the, some of the stellar marketing people that do exist.

604
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:59,400
 But, but, but in general, you know, it's, it's, it's thought about one way, it's thought about.

605
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:01,800
 It's, yeah.

606
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:04,000
 Yeah, I don't know.

607
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:13,000
 No, no, I always saw myself as, I'm communicating something and a food design is a communication tool.

608
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:13,200
 Yeah.

609
00:31:14,700 --> 00:31:18,800
 Not just way to make something easy to use.

610
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:29,400
 And when I was working in retail trade, and I very much like, felt like, you know, why do people interact with it like a million people?

611
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:29,900
 Yeah.

612
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:45,700
 And I mean, like it's communicating my ethics, my methods, why think that I, especially if I'm trying to do something in a more ethical way or whatever is communicating, whatever I'm, as a designer thinking and how I'm implementing it.

613
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:53,600
 Yeah, I mean, all these signs communication, right? You had this one quote about the shapes and symbols or something like that.

614
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:54,700
 Remind me of it again.

615
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,200
 Signs and symbols.

616
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:56,400
 Yeah.

617
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,900
 Oh, is it signs and symbols rule the world, not what words, no laws.

618
00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:01,800
 Yeah, there you go.

619
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:02,400
 Yeah.

620
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:06,700
 And if you just look around, you know, that it's immediately obvious.

621
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:12,800
 It's like, you know, something stupid, like the whatever, like the ear stop sign or a non smoking sign and like those kinds of things.

622
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,900
 Signs are very clearly the level above language.

623
00:32:19,100 --> 00:32:19,400
 Yeah.

624
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,900
 That's why we use them also, right?

625
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:24,700
 It's like you don't need to translate it in like every language of the world.

626
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:30,200
 It's like there's one universal sign that everyone understands and in the best case, intuitively understands.

627
00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:30,700
 Yeah.

628
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:31,000
 Yeah.

629
00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:44,200
 I think, uh, I think at least in my experience before I like thought out that more, I think there's so many things in life that have meaning and encoded meaning.

630
00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:50,900
 We think of random like it might even be just the way a fence is ornamented.

631
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:51,500
 Yeah.

632
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,500
 You don't realize that the symbol in it had a reason to be there.

633
00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:55,500
 It has a history.

634
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,900
 And I think we think a lot more things are arbitrary than they are.

635
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:08,000
 And it again is just losing our connection to the past and our history and the the provenance of what we are.

636
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:15,600
 And we're using all those things like you said earlier with language, I didn't make English, you know, but we're using it.

637
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:16,800
 So we are imbued in it.

638
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:19,100
 So we should really understand it too.

639
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:19,300
 Yeah.

640
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:25,500
 I think there's a vested interest in us not doing that, obviously.

641
00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:30,100
 But it's also a propaganda move, right?

642
00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:33,400
 Like one of the things that authoritarian regimes often try to do.

643
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:39,700
 It's like play around with the language and play around with the meaning of words and like change the meaning of words and so on.

644
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:43,900
 It doesn't usually work very well, but it's to a degree it does.

645
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:57,700
 But as to me, that's always when my alarm bells go off, if someone tries to be play loose with the language, you know, and just, you know, whatever.

646
00:33:57,700 --> 00:34:02,500
 Like there's lots of these like in war times when you talk about collateral damage, you know.

647
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,400
 No, it's like killing civilians slaughter civilians.

648
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,800
 That's why it's a euphemism or a disfemism.

649
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:10,100
 Yeah.

650
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:11,000
 Yeah.

651
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:11,600
 Yeah.

652
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:18,700
 The euphemism or the people for some reason think mostly use that in like a in new endo context.

653
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,900
 So lost lost the understanding of the word euphemism.

654
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:22,300
 Yeah.

655
00:34:22,300 --> 00:34:24,500
 It just means to make something sound better than it is.

656
00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:24,800
 Yeah.

657
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:25,500
 Yeah.

658
00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:27,200
 And they do that all the time.

659
00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:27,700
 Yeah.

660
00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:28,400
 Like you.

661
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:29,400
 Yeah.

662
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,700
 Yeah, it triggered me so hard that I brought a whole whole whole piece once, which was about the words we use in Bitcoin.

663
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:47,600
 And it was when the language started to shift and the legislators came up with the language of like an unhosted wallet and unhosted.

664
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:54,800
 And they would repeat that over and over again, like an unhosted wallet and how dangerous it is to have an unhosted wallet and so on.

665
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,800
 And like I was furious because it's also it's also ingenious.

666
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,800
 like they sat together in the room.

667
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,000
 to like 20 people and brainstorm this and they came up with that and they realized oh wow that's

668
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:10,080
 genius that's good let's go with that and I was man I'm still furious because it's it's

669
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,840
 and well it shouldn't be hosted period it's like and I I was so angry I would talk with people and

670
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,680
 the example I use for example oh look at all these children running around look at all these

671
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,960
 unwrapped children you know it's the same thing it's a terrible thing to say but it makes clear

672
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:32,000
 like of what they are doing you know it's like oh no look look these unwrapped children you know

673
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,960
 like it's it's it's completely insane to me that those are the tricks that they are playing yeah

674
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,240
 when they talk about unhosted wallets and so on and and if you're uninformed and if you don't have

675
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:48,160
 any idea about what the wallet is what bitcoin represents what like how the system works and so on

676
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,720
 then you just you just completely glance over it and you let it slide and it's just like and you're

677
00:35:52,720 --> 00:36:00,080
 okay with the term and you might adopt the term and so on and I think that's yeah well I think

678
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:12,960
 that's is one of the oldest in art kind of times tool to to change the world to like bad actors

679
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:20,240
 benefit like I think a lot of it started with the lawyers manipulating words yeah for people to

680
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:26,320
 sign things they're not realized that they've just granted like a corporation the same as the

681
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:32,400
 rights of a human yeah things like this so I think it's always been there that tool and it's quite

682
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,200
 it could be quite a surreptitious tool you could do very like there's not people there you can just

683
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,240
 slowly you know absolutely let the information out before and before you know people are talking

684
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:49,200
 like that and that's it but then they also have legal legal kind of ability to use it I imagine

685
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:54,640
 they were doing that so they could use it later in some way like a self-hosted wallet things like

686
00:36:54,640 --> 00:37:00,560
 this absolutely absolutely yeah yeah because they're making it much more specific to hosting and

687
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:06,480
 then they can say well you got hosting something that was illegal exactly exactly yeah yeah yeah

688
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:13,280
 running an unhosted wallet is it like that's that's the next step after that and so and it's yeah well

689
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:24,160
 anyway but it's yeah I mean it's just sad to me that very few people care about these things also

690
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:32,640
 care about the language that's why also on on Wednesday I brought up and to be fair on the

691
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,920
 not-for-signed there's some people that really do care about the language for example like like

692
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:43,600
 with the with the stuff that we are trying to do I think language is extremely important and I would

693
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,600
 like on Wednesday I would point out the difference between a server and the relay and like if you're

694
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,800
 talking about the server like who is the server serving you know like who's being served is the

695
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:59,920
 server serving itself and is it like a is it like a client-server relationship or is it a master

696
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:04,880
 slave relationship you know yeah those kind of things and there's a reason why we use all these

697
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:12,880
 words and we use all these analogies and and on the not-so-side for example you don't have an

698
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,760
 osser account like a constant for example we'll talk about that as well yeah and because there is

699
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,400
 no account you only have an account if there is an accountant and he does he does that accounting if

700
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,640
 there is a list and you can't be crossed off the list yeah you know like and that's where the word

701
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:31,440
 account comes from it comes from the accounting site and someone is doing the accounting and it

702
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,400
 comes from that of course and like your debts can be forgiven or you can be platformed or whatever

703
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,120
 you have yeah and on the not-so-side we are in a completely different system where you don't have

704
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,920
 an account you have a key you have a key and you're key with your key you can create a profile and

705
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:51,920
 it's very very different it's a very different system and so the words we use actually do matter

706
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,520
 yeah because if they paint if you use the wrong words you have to move wrong mental picture then

707
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,680
 you will also build the systems in the wrong way and use them in the wrong way yeah that's

708
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:05,920
 interesting because sometimes that's hard for me as a designer because yeah but knowing that

709
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,480
 you'll be in mind for about what's causing so if that's the case then it's a different kind of challenge

710
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:18,000
 to onboard people to this better way of talking about things not necessarily you should use

711
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:24,560
 the existing way because that's easier for people to understand yeah which is always a design challenge

712
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:32,880
 normally we lay into what they already do but like what you're saying now maybe realize why

713
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:38,800
 actually it had a lot of challenges in that area with Nostr and just do the stuff with the design

714
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:46,080
 of how do you think about the the hard problem of onboarding or like even holding keys and

715
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:51,040
 having people manage keys and those kind of things like from a design perspective from an

716
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:58,000
 onboarding and UX perspective yeah a lot of designers have like strong opinions on that right so I'd be

717
00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,920
 curious to to hear yours

718
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,720
 They haven't really had the opportunity to tackle that problem,

719
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,360
 like I should, or maybe I just haven't taken the time.

720
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,800
 But in some sense, you already did, right?

721
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,840
 Like you've been working on Archipelago for a very long time now.

722
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,680
 And this has to come up on the Archipelago side as well,

723
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,280
 where you run a self-sarbor node.

724
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,200
 You have to be in charge, which means you also...

725
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,440
 You're not babysitting the user to such a degree

726
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,200
 that it would feel like he has a Facebook page or whatever.

727
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,000
 Yeah.

728
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,560
 So that actually takes what I was going to say in a different way.

729
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,080
 I guess I'd call someone that's installed in Archipelago,

730
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,080
 like a high-intent user.

731
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,160
 I've got a lot of intent on this while they're doing it.

732
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:47,680
 It's not just a casual thing.

733
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:48,200
 I see.

734
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,960
 So when you've got a high-intent platform,

735
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,480
 so any user that's going to likely have a lot of intent

736
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,720
 and time to play with this, it's not just a website link

737
00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:02,680
 they went to frivolously.

738
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,480
 Then it's a less of a problem.

739
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,600
 But then it's kind of an indirect tool now.

740
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,720
 Like some people would say, how do we make the login analogy

741
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:18,360
 with Nostr or something like that, or the account analogy?

742
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,840
 But for me, it's about grabbing the user's attention

743
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,840
 and doing something that makes them interested

744
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,640
 and committed to whatever this thing is.

745
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:32,680
 That's what I've been trying to do.

746
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:32,920
 Yeah.

747
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:33,200
 Yeah.

748
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:33,560
 Yeah.

749
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,200
 I think that's more powerful.

750
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:36,920
 You know, like...

751
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,720
 Answering the question of like, why should they care?

752
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:41,160
 Yeah.

753
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,200
 Because if someone cares, the obstacle is not the issue.

754
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,520
 And I think when you make it something like that,

755
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,680
 like what I've tried to do as sort of an engineer in this time,

756
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,840
 I think it's the kind of

757
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,480
 bi-directional thing you were talking about.

758
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,960
 The reason that engages the person is because

759
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:02,960
 it's obvious the person you made it cared.

760
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:03,560
 Right?

761
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:04,080
 Yeah.

762
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:04,600
 Yeah.

763
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,360
 I think that's really the fundamental layer

764
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:09,560
 that gives you that

765
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,360
 gives you that attention with them.

766
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,080
 You could probably make an interest in an analogy,

767
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:16,040
 you know, on the street.

768
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,440
 Like if you're looking for a restaurant,

769
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,000
 or maybe a bar.

770
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:23,200
 If there's one that's just very self-effacing, nothing's happening.

771
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,240
 Like less interest, but there's one thing that's happening

772
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:29,600
 looks like someone took time to detail.

773
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:29,960
 Yeah.

774
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,200
 It's a design in the evening,

775
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,240
 yeah, during a week for people, you know,

776
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,080
 yeah, and you're more interested in going there.

777
00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:35,360
 Yeah.

778
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:36,520
 You're going to look around a bit more.

779
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:37,560
 Yeah.

780
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:38,600
 But yeah, that's not...

781
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,760
 That's nowhere near what I thought I would be the answer.

782
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,880
 But they think again, you need to think like,

783
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,400
 laterally and do some like,

784
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,480
 you know, the shower effect kind of work or

785
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,640
 what have you to kind of find the answers.

786
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,720
 Because I don't think it's right in front of you.

787
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:57,440
 Yeah.

788
00:42:58,600 --> 00:42:59,720
 No, that's such a good point.

789
00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:02,200
 It's also in terms of

790
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,000
 there were two really good points in there

791
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,400
 and kind of the high-intend user.

792
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,840
 I think that's how the world already works to a large degree.

793
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,680
 Like again, going back to like power tools.

794
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,160
 Like if you get a certain type of machine

795
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,280
 that's like really big and dangerous,

796
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,520
 you're like, not everyone is going to get that machine.

797
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:23,080
 No.

798
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:24,920
 Like it will...

799
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,440
 There's a lot of trust put in the user

800
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,560
 that they can figure it out

801
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,760
 and they will not hurt themselves immediately and so on.

802
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:34,480
 It's like they'll...

803
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:36,880
 You're the kind of guy that gets like

804
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,480
 whatever like an overpowered like saw or whatever, you know?

805
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,320
 Like you're not a normal guy to begin with.

806
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:43,720
 Yeah.

807
00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:45,400
 And you'll know how to handle it.

808
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:46,440
 And you'll...

809
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:48,600
 You know, there's going to be a little bit of instruction,

810
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,920
 a little bit of things to figure out and you'll figure it out.

811
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:51,400
 Yeah.

812
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:56,520
 And so I feel like we are able to do all that already as a society.

813
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:57,720
 That's kind of...

814
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,480
 That's been my criticism from the get-go on the Bitcoin South custody

815
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,160
 and also not the key management side.

816
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:05,560
 Yeah.

817
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:06,360
 It's like...

818
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:07,720
 If you...

819
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:10,440
 If you get a sharp kitchen knife,

820
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,520
 you better learn how to handle a sharp kitchen knife.

821
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,560
 If you get a car, you better learn how to drive the car.

822
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,880
 You can kill yourself and you can kill others.

823
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,320
 Very easily.

824
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:21,640
 Yeah.

825
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,120
 If you get a firearm, you better learn to...

826
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,600
 With a thing or two about how firearms work

827
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,560
 and how to avoid shooting yourself in the foot

828
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,800
 and how to store them safely,

829
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,720
 especially if you have kids in the house and so on.

830
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:35,160
 And all those kind of things.

831
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:35,880
 Like as...

832
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,560
 Human civilization, we figure these things out.

833
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:42,200
 Yeah.

834
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,400
 Why can't we figure out key management in a similar way?

835
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:46,040
 You know?

836
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,000
 Because it's to me, that's what we are talking about.

837
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,560
 It's on the level of having a car or having a firearm.

838
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,160
 And in terms of autonomy and in terms of self-protection.

839
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:58,520
 That's the level we're talking about.

840
00:44:58,520 --> 00:44:59,880
 Like the cars are interesting.

841
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,520
 because if shit hits the fan you can jump into the car and you can just go

842
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:08,280
 east unless you're here you know like it won't do you good but in general if

843
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,480
 you're on the mainland if you're not stuck on an island you can jump into the

844
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:17,080
 car and you're gone you're very very high agency you're you're you're very

845
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:22,680
 yeah your optionality is very high if you have a car yeah it's a good analogy

846
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:29,920
 with firearms you have self-defense you know like it's it's it's if that's why

847
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,440
 in Texas like people don't fuck around you know like everyone everyone in Texas

848
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:40,400
 is like armed to that teeth and and it's a very polite society right and and so

849
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,720
 to me Bitcoin represents especially Bitcoin but to some degree in Austria

850
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:48,560
 as well like everything that has to do everything that bases its whole being

851
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:53,280
 on cryptographic keys the cryptographic keys have this level of importance if

852
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,360
 shit hits the fan you can put the 12 words in your head if you want to and

853
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,840
 you can leave the country you know that's that's what we're talking about and I

854
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,440
 mean on the other side of course it's its identity it's on crypto communication

855
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,440
 it's all those kind of things which also are incredibly important it's your

856
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,760
 online life basically yes if you base your online life on Nostr you can take

857
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:18,560
 your life with you if you base your financial life from Bitcoin you can take

858
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,800
 your wealth and all your financial infrastructure with you yeah and no one

859
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:23,960
 can take it away from you that's what we're talking about and people are

860
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,920
 whining about oh it's so hard to write down 12 words or whatever or to use a

861
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:32,120
 hardware wallet or a skis like all of them which have to get out of it yeah

862
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:37,000
 back to what you said back to what you said you have to you have to get people

863
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,800
 wrap people's attention and and and in the end make them care like make them

864
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:46,520
 curious and enough and then like yeah help them understand why they should care

865
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:51,400
 right and that's kind of the the challenge at hand I think from from the

866
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,960
 design perspective to a large degree or also also from the engineering perspective

867
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,720
 it's like I don't know like they blend together I think we also have to remember

868
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:06,760
 that we are sort of unfucking this thing so along with that comes you're

869
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:11,720
 really trying people have done this really badly it's programmed in us and

870
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:18,040
 I care for our account information emails logins services is so low yeah so

871
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:24,840
 throw away that you know this is going to be a challenge yeah and it's the

872
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:29,160
 challenge isn't because Nostr is bad or these things are bad it's just this is

873
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:34,520
 decades of programming yes we have to undo it and go in the wrong way that we

874
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,160
 need yet to be needed to fight and sometimes it just will take that first

875
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,400
 person doesn't it and then he shows as a friend and then it's viral just like

876
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,320
 anything else was in the only internet yeah early internet like you were saying

877
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:53,240
 earlier there's a lot more in 10 and there was you know it was you know that

878
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:59,040
 virality can come to to Nostr that I remember people learning how to do

879
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:04,320
 things on the internet yeah taking time yeah yeah writing down URLs from the

880
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:10,960
 backs of magazines exactly yeah so yeah I think I think sometimes we're

881
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:15,160
 very I mean it's great to talk about all these things but yeah sometimes it

882
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:19,200
 seems like we're worried it's not gonna work or we're worried we're doing it

883
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:27,960
 wrong I'm worrying is to creative but I think we forget the the low time frame

884
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:32,840
 yeah forget we forget the exact time we're talking it so like you know

885
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,680
 frantically but like this is a long-term project it's gonna take a long time

886
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:52,720
 absolutely absolutely yeah and that's kind of why yeah the the larger goal of

887
00:48:52,720 --> 00:49:00,360
 the cohorts is to get the right people involved that either explicitly or

888
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:06,280
 intuitively understand this and to you know like assemble a loose group of

889
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:13,240
 people that can work together for long periods of time to actually solve some of

890
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:19,600
 these issues that's kind of the idea behind that in that's the very high

891
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:24,120
 intent yeah yeah you need you need you need high agency people otherwise

892
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:29,160
 nothing would happen but but but because like in in a normal context we often

893
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:35,120
 talk about high bandwidth interaction and cross-pollination of ideas and all

894
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:39,400
 those kind of things and all of that is true but that's like one one level of

895
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:46,240
 analysis when it comes to to what we're trying to do here the very long-term

896
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:53,440
 thing is that we actually want to solve all the issues that we are facing right

897
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,880
 now in the current iteration of the internet which is in part due to

898
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,800
 centralized infrastructure in other part to to centralized services

899
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,800
 and to service their turning evil and all those kinds of things.

900
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:11,600
 And also having a, like you said, you know, like a population of internet users

901
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,680
 that is just very bad path.

902
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,400
 Yeah, in some sense, very low agency path.

903
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:29,000
 And you must know about the concept of a citizen, like the citizen of the internet.

904
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:34,400
 And we also used to have on the early internet days the concept of the Natikat.

905
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,600
 I'm not sure if that might have been a German thing.

906
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,600
 It might have been a German thing.

907
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:40,400
 Now that I think about it.

908
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,600
 But it's like an etiquette. It's like an etiquette.

909
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,600
 Like how to behave. I'll have to look at that.

910
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:50,200
 I think that's basically how to be polite online.

911
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:51,600
 You know, like those kind of things.

912
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:52,600
 That's the thing.

913
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,600
 And it is very much gone.

914
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,600
 Like some of those things are still around where like it's, you can never know.

915
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,800
 There's like some name law or whatever.

916
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,200
 I don't know the name of the law.

917
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:07,400
 But you can never tell if someone is being legit or sarcastic online.

918
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,400
 Like sarcasm doesn't transfer.

919
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:10,400
 Yeah.

920
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,400
 And so you always have to indicate sarcasm explicitly basically.

921
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:18,200
 And so the rules online are definitely different than they are in meat space.

922
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:19,200
 Yeah.

923
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,200
 But yeah, I feel kind of that's the challenge at hand.

924
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,000
 One of them is technical.

925
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:31,800
 And to me the technical design and technical implementation to me are very much welded together.

926
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:32,800
 Yeah.

927
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,600
 Like they kind of have to be.

928
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:40,400
 And I think from it, the social change follows.

929
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,600
 I think to me it's technology first.

930
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,400
 Social change after.

931
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,200
 Birth Control Pill is a great example.

932
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,200
 Internal combustion engine is a great example.

933
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:49,800
 Printing press is a great example.

934
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:50,800
 Smartphones are a great example.

935
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,200
 Looks like this would have never happened to someone sitting at a beach.

936
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:55,200
 Yeah.

937
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:56,400
 Most of you, she missed the pirate boat.

938
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,800
 Like the pirate boat is shipping by and she's just staring into the phone here.

939
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:00,800
 Same thing.

940
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:01,800
 Everyone's staring at the phone.

941
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,400
 But 90 that she was reported to cast less about the pirate boat.

942
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,400
 She saw it because of the way we interact.

943
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:08,400
 Yeah.

944
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:09,400
 Yeah.

945
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,400
 I think everything is less interesting.

946
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:12,400
 Selfies.

947
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:13,400
 Selfies.

948
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:14,400
 Very self-esteem tank.

949
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,400
 Very self-centered society.

950
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,600
 That's pretty much it.

951
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,600
 So what's the way out?

952
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:26,600
 The way out.

953
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:27,600
 Yeah.

954
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:28,600
 What's the way out of the tunnel?

955
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:30,600
 The way out, sorry.

956
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,600
 What's the way out of the current situation?

957
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,800
 What is the current situation?

958
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:41,200
 The self-centered society and the techno monopolies that we have to live with right

959
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:42,200
 now.

960
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:47,200
 And kind of the very, you know, like you can't.

961
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,600
 You can't even talk about suicide or abortion on like Facebook for about being the platform,

962
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:52,600
 for example.

963
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:53,600
 What's the way out of the world?

964
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,200
 It's funny how close that is to like the 1984 thing.

965
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,400
 But I think when it's even in front of us, we can't see it.

966
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:05,200
 Like all these YouTubers that are proactively censoring themselves and talk about it.

967
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:06,200
 Yeah.

968
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,400
 And we have new names for like PDF files.

969
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:09,400
 Yeah.

970
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:10,400
 Like all this stuff.

971
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:11,400
 Like it's happening.

972
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:17,400
 I think because it's not happening in the way it happened.

973
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:19,400
 We were serving on the film version of a 1984.

974
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:20,400
 Yeah.

975
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:21,400
 You can't see it.

976
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,400
 But the chilling effect is definitely real, especially on the YouTube side, you know,

977
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,400
 like you'll bleep themselves.

978
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,400
 Because you get demonetized instantly, right?

979
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:31,400
 Yeah.

980
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:36,400
 And that's the line you have to skate around basically.

981
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:44,000
 Yeah, do you think kind of speaking to the little time preference idea you just mentioned

982
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:50,600
 before, do you think we're on the right path on an ostracide or do you think something

983
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:52,800
 that's more different is needed?

984
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:59,640
 I think I see Bitcoin as a child of, not still as a child of Bitcoin and then so it's

985
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:06,360
 just FIPS is like a child of not standing.

986
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:12,160
 And I think I'm seeing like, for me, I always saw Bitcoin as the foundation.

987
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,400
 And a lot of people see Bitcoin as the end layer, right?

988
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,800
 Because it's just the start of this new thing.

989
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:19,800
 Yeah.

990
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:20,800
 It's not just the money.

991
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,200
 It's not like, which a lot of people think it is.

992
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:25,200
 Yeah.

993
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,040
 I think Bitcoin is the layer where, like you say, what's the solution?

994
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,040
 I think Bitcoin was the solution.

995
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,840
 And we're going to see it slowly creating.

996
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:34,840
 Yeah.

997
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,560
 For me, Bitcoin is a seed and it's just a sapling at the moment.

998
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:39,560
 Yeah.

999
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:40,560
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1000
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:41,560
 But you want to see the whole tree.

1001
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:42,560
 Yeah.

1002
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:43,560
 But it's just going to take time.

1003
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:48,320
 And for me, I think Bitcoin's greatest gift will be all the things that come out of it.

1004
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:50,560
 I mean, you're preaching to the first one.

1005
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:51,560
 Yeah.

1006
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:52,560
 Of course.

1007
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:54,560
 I'm out of there.

1008
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:59,920
 I have a similar mental image and I love what's currently happening on lots of the

1009
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,000
 the master project and so on that lots of OTS is used,

1010
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,120
 like open time stamping, where you anchor

1011
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:11,120
 into the Bitcoin chain to create a proof of existence.

1012
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:16,120
 And from that, you can build up reputation systems

1013
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,440
 that are very hard to cheat and like those kinds of things.

1014
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,520
 So yeah, it's definitely happening.

1015
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,720
 And I think I'm very, very optimistic.

1016
00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:30,360
 I think we just, again, it's not only a marathon,

1017
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,520
 it's like an ultra marathon, not a sprint.

1018
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:38,640
 - But yeah, that's my answer.

1019
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:40,120
 It's already happening.

1020
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,200
 It was already initiated.

1021
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:43,040
 - Awesome.

1022
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,760
 - But it's not necessarily just gonna be the body.

1023
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:46,600
 - Yeah.

1024
00:55:49,240 --> 00:55:52,920
 - But like, I guess that's why Bitcoin for me

1025
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:57,560
 is also divine, is because like,

1026
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:01,200
 I think we, because we're such high timeframe society now,

1027
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:07,440
 like, like capitalist realism is like,

1028
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:12,000
 capitalism is so ingrained that zombie apocalypse

1029
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,800
 seems more likely than changing to a different system.

1030
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:16,640
 - Yeah.

1031
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:19,200
 - Yeah, and on the time preference side,

1032
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:20,800
 I mean, it's like from quality profit

1033
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:21,800
 to quality profit, right?

1034
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:23,760
 Like that's basically the timeframe.

1035
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:24,600
 - Yeah.

1036
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:26,160
 - If we wanna be generous, if we talk about

1037
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,320
 the TikTok generation, it's like 10 seconds to 10 seconds.

1038
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,080
 Or whatever the duration is, I don't even know.

1039
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:33,400
 Probably last to that.

1040
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:34,920
 - Once now.

1041
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,200
 - Really? Two at once?

1042
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:37,320
 - Yeah, one.

1043
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:38,160
 - Oh my God.

1044
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:39,000
 - Oh my God.

1045
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,000
 - Oh my Lord, they describe it, let's green.

1046
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:43,080
 Oh my God, it's gonna be a,

1047
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:44,960
 it's all an operating system very soon.

1048
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,220
 (laughing)

1049
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,680
 Anyway, no, I actually think the kids are gonna be all right.

1050
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,040
 - Jonathan mentioned this yesterday on the board as well.

1051
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,440
 But in a different context,

1052
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,520
 he mentioned that he's glad that,

1053
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,160
 you know, the next generation of people

1054
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:06,240
 are picking up sovereign tech

1055
00:57:06,240 --> 00:57:09,080
 and are being good stewards to it.

1056
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:14,080
 So yeah, that was lovely to hear from someone like him

1057
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,080
 who has been here for ages.

1058
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,520
 - Yeah, that is what we're saying,

1059
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,160
 happening slowly in motion.

1060
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:22,520
 - Yeah, yeah.

1061
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:23,520
 - Epigenex.

1062
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:24,360
 - Yeah.

1063
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,560
 - People say the funny thing for me is like,

1064
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:28,360
 you can't force things on your kids.

1065
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,200
 But like you can see, it's not forcing now

1066
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,400
 that you've got these children and people

1067
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,360
 and not stir people like that's who they are

1068
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:38,840
 that don't have to force it.

1069
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,160
 It's just like how they live their life.

1070
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:42,640
 - It's a way of life, yeah.

1071
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,720
 - Which is, it's just gonna be normal.

1072
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:45,560
 - Yeah.

1073
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,000
 - Like that's how things work.

1074
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:48,400
 - Yeah.

1075
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:49,240
 - Yeah.

1076
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:54,240
 - They've got to fight the oligarchs' children.

1077
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:55,200
 - Yeah, sure.

1078
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:56,120
 - Because you can have probably been

1079
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,120
 10 times more psychopathic.

1080
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,600
 Never met a real planet than ever.

1081
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:04,680
 Like, who knows what they're up against.

1082
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,280
 - We're heading into interesting times, that's for sure.

1083
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:14,360
 But yeah, you mentioned the divine aspect of kind of,

1084
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,200
 and maybe also the divine timing of Bitcoin appearing.

1085
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:20,720
 - That's the big one with that one.

1086
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:24,080
 - And you're not alone with that kind of line of thinking

1087
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:27,440
 and that type of commentary.

1088
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:32,440
 So I didn't say any of that stuff out loud.

1089
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:34,080
 (laughing)

1090
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:36,080
 When it all started appearing.

1091
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,240
 And so yeah, there's a lot of,

1092
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,360
 or more than you would think,

1093
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,920
 more people than you would think on the Bitcoin side

1094
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,720
 that would say something like that.

1095
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,640
 - What makes you say that Bitcoin is divine

1096
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,080
 or has some divinity in it?

1097
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:56,640
 - That's so hard to describe.

1098
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:57,840
 - Yay, an affable.

1099
00:58:57,840 --> 00:58:59,920
 Describe the affable for me, please.

1100
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:02,720
 - I guess like you could see

1101
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,680
 like divine information,

1102
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:09,760
 like convergence or something,

1103
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,480
 or you know, like I guess divinity comes from the,

1104
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,120
 the old divinity is having a vision or what have you.

1105
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,840
 And I think we have a lot of problems

1106
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,720
 regarding Bitcoin, is it a religion, is it a cult,

1107
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:24,560
 is it, why is it?

1108
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:27,400
 But like maybe it's this new paradigm thing

1109
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,000
 because you know, paradigms have to start.

1110
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,000
 There was no religion and then there was.

1111
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,160
 Yeah, like this is another paradigm.

1112
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:38,320
 So if it's our best analogy,

1113
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:42,040
 I think for me it's my best analogy and it's a feeling

1114
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:43,080
 of what is happening.

1115
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:47,520
 - Like going from utter nihilism to absolutely hope

1116
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:52,480
 like during Bitcoin was just like the craziest thing ever.

1117
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:53,320
 Like I was the biggest.

1118
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:54,960
 - Crazy personal transformation.

1119
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:57,800
 - Yeah, I think it saved my life literally,

1120
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,160
 along with some other things.

1121
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:06,400
 So yeah, it does almost feel like intervention, you know, in my life.

1122
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:09,640
 Like, yeah, you're not alone with saying that.

1123
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:10,680
 Like, not a lot.

1124
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:12,000
 Yeah.

1125
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:13,400
 And it gives me a look.

1126
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:18,760
 I guess it gives me a purpose and a focus and it does make my life better.

1127
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:20,400
 My life just gets better and better.

1128
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:22,160
 Yeah, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like,

1129
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,040
 you're like, I'm a Sovereign Engineering.

1130
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:28,240
 Yeah, I had the best, you know, time here to.

1131
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:31,480
 It felt like this is the time that I should come and, you know, I don't know.

1132
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:37,680
 Just maybe it's the way maybe it's how it changed my outlook and my perspective.

1133
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:38,040
 Yeah.

1134
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,120
 It feels like, you know, it's divine.

1135
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:41,800
 Yeah.

1136
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:47,080
 Maybe divinity is just, you know, having purpose, feeling happy, being free.

1137
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:47,720
 Yeah.

1138
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:48,360
 All those things.

1139
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:53,320
 I would, I would, I think a lot of people that study the stuff would agree with that statement.

1140
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:56,600
 It's basically once you have.

1141
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,920
 Like the question is, what goal should you pursue?

1142
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,480
 Like in every five minutes, it's like, what should you do next, basically?

1143
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,840
 You know, like and we are goal oriented action oriented beings.

1144
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:14,200
 So the question becomes what in the hierarchies of goals that you want to pursue in your life,

1145
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,600
 like, how should you orient yourself so that you best achieve these goals?

1146
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:25,360
 The problem with nihilism is like, if you don't have any goals, then you you you you you have no orientation and you're completely lost.

1147
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:30,080
 You lost it high C and you don't know which way to turn and which way to go and what to do and so on.

1148
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:31,000
 And everything is meaningless.

1149
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:31,400
 Yeah.

1150
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:40,120
 And the divinity comes in like once you realize there is something at the very top.

1151
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:41,200
 Yeah.

1152
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:42,800
 That you can't talk about that.

1153
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:44,840
 You can't describe that you can't explain.

1154
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:49,240
 But the drives everything and then also by definition drives you.

1155
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:53,440
 Like that's the thing you should pursue forever, basically.

1156
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:57,760
 With the with the with the maximum intensity without falling apart.

1157
01:01:57,960 --> 01:01:58,520
 Yeah.

1158
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:01,400
 Keeping keeping self preservation in mind.

1159
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:05,520
 But even then, you know, like that's why that's why I in the religious domain,

1160
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:10,160
 like also self-sacrifice is an option, you know, like that goal is so important

1161
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,560
 that people will literally sacrifice themselves for that and so on.

1162
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:14,920
 And I think I think.

1163
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:22,840
 I mean, we talked about this briefly in the past, but to me why Bitcoin is so interesting is because it is.

1164
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:26,680
 No, no, no, no. Sorry.

1165
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,080
 This will be this will be weird to to to people.

1166
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:31,800
 This is going to be a weird thing to say.

1167
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:33,280
 But I'll say it anyway.

1168
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:35,040
 And it's a real thing.

1169
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:36,120
 It's a real artifact.

1170
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:36,600
 Yeah.

1171
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:38,120
 Even though you can't touch it.

1172
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:43,640
 But as a computer scientist, I can I can say and I can see like it's as real as it gets.

1173
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:44,000
 Yeah.

1174
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:49,120
 In the computer science domain, it's as like if something is made out of zeros and ones,

1175
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:50,800
 Bitcoin is as real as it gets.

1176
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:52,120
 It doesn't get more real than that.

1177
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:53,320
 That's our paradigm.

1178
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:59,200
 And it is a massive paradigm shift because we never had anything exist out of zeros

1179
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:04,480
 and ones that like completely reshapes the world and actually has physical existence

1180
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:08,960
 in the world and Bitcoin does have physical existence in the world.

1181
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:10,240
 And it's not limited either.

1182
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:15,560
 No, it's not exactly exactly, which is again like a, you know, a divine idea in some sense,

1183
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:19,280
 like it it has a beginning, but it doesn't have an end not necessarily.

1184
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:27,320
 And it's to me, there's still the bridge between the purely informational digital realm,

1185
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:34,840
 like the realm of ideas, basically, to the real electrons and atoms physical

1186
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:37,320
 reality that we find ourselves in,

1187
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:39,560
 Bitcoin was able to build that bridge.

1188
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:40,120
 Yeah.

1189
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:45,600
 And and so to me, it's the realest thing that exists because it's like,

1190
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:50,320
 like, like all this, we could be again, like this could be a dream or a simulation

1191
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:51,320
 or whatever and so on.

1192
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:55,000
 But but you do the math on Bitcoin and you look at the zeros and ones and you look

1193
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:59,440
 at the, you know, like the block header and so on and you like you understand how the

1194
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:00,440
 system works.

1195
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:02,440
 There is

1196
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:08,080
 proofable realness embedded in Bitcoin and that's what makes it to me real.

1197
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:08,600
 Yeah.

1198
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,280
 But the bridge I spoke about, that's what I like

1199
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:16,480
 just like you, like I was I self identified as an atheist for I don't know, like two

1200
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:17,360
 decades or something.

1201
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,120
 Now I don't know, like a like, no, no, I legit like I don't have labels except for

1202
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:21,360
 Bitcoin.

1203
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:23,840
 No, but

1204
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:29,840
 the fluffy concepts in the cloud of like, you know, like a spirit of something.

1205
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,880
 And again, like my opening talk of Sovereign Engineering was like building

1206
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,920
 something in the spirit of Bitcoin, like that tells you that tells you something

1207
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:37,080
 about where I'm at.

1208
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:41,840
 But but Bitcoin has a spirit and this is spiritual

1209
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:46,880
 entity defined in code, you know, like you can change the Bitcoin code and so on

1210
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:47,680
 and so forth.

1211
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:52,040
 But through the proof of work bridge and the consensus mechanism bridge that builds up

1212
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,040
 over time and all those kinds of things, it has physical existence.

1213
01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:59,240
 And then that was my way, not necessarily out of nihilism.

1214
01:04:59,440 --> 01:04:59,960
 I wasn't I wasn't

1215
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,440
 as heavily on the nihilism road as you've been.

1216
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:08,040
 But it was definitely my way out of atheism, interestingly enough.

1217
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:11,280
 It was like, oh, I get it now.

1218
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,280
 Like, there can be--

1219
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:16,600
 I don't know.

1220
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,000
 There is a higher instance.

1221
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:23,560
 And I'm not necessarily talking about God yet.

1222
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:27,520
 We briefly talked about this a couple of days ago, I think,

1223
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:34,240
 just talking about how a city, for example, can have a certain--

1224
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:37,680
 we often say a charm or something, like a charm to a city.

1225
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:39,640
 Or the example I always bring up is

1226
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:43,880
 like the Chicago Bulls have their own mind.

1227
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,680
 Even if everyone changes, every player changes,

1228
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:48,360
 the coach changes, everyone changes,

1229
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:50,240
 it's still the Chicago Bulls.

1230
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:51,720
 It has this identity.

1231
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:53,720
 And that's what helped me on the Bitcoin side.

1232
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:55,480
 Bitcoin showed this very, very clearly.

1233
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:57,360
 Bitcoin wants to be a thing.

1234
01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:58,440
 It's a thing.

1235
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:00,720
 It's very hard to describe and define the thing.

1236
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:02,400
 It has physical existence.

1237
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,160
 But there's a spiritual side to Bitcoin.

1238
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:10,720
 Technically, I mean, the software code that's running.

1239
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:13,040
 It's not a chair.

1240
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:16,760
 Like it's-- it's zero than once.

1241
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,440
 But there is the physical instantiation of Bitcoin.

1242
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:21,440
 And they are somehow linked together.

1243
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:23,480
 And that was kind of--

1244
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:27,480
 I had a very big aha moment and some realizations.

1245
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:33,000
 And that kind of opened me up to more religious thoughts.

1246
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:37,040
 And even though I hate the world, but more spiritual thinking.

1247
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:38,320
 And those kind of things.

1248
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,360
 I think we all agree to hate that one.

1249
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:41,880
 And we haven't got that one.

1250
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,440
 [LAUGHTER]

1251
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:44,880
 I don't know.

1252
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:45,880
 I realize there was a lot.

1253
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:47,880
 I hope there wasn't all gibberish.

1254
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:48,240
 So--

1255
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:49,920
 No, no.

1256
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:51,680
 Yeah.

1257
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,920
 And the fact that it's still happening and it's still ongoing.

1258
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,600
 Like Bitcoin still has this effect on people.

1259
01:06:57,600 --> 01:06:58,120
 Yeah.

1260
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:00,880
 It's insanely interesting to me.

1261
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:05,600
 Like people keep having this spiritual transformations

1262
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:08,120
 because of the fucking orange coin.

1263
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,680
 And I still don't know what to make of it.

1264
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:15,560
 Like I have no idea kind of feel like what it all means.

1265
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:17,080
 And--

1266
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:19,840
 For me, it just feels like a theorem almost,

1267
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:21,560
 like when I think about it sometimes.

1268
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:23,920
 Like this whole aura is like--

1269
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:24,600
 It's very surreal.

1270
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:25,800
 --a book or a film.

1271
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:26,320
 Yeah.

1272
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:29,600
 You know, anonymous guy who creates this thing,

1273
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:30,880
 perfect timing.

1274
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:31,240
 Yeah.

1275
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:33,400
 And then, you know, in my head when you say that,

1276
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:35,760
 I just-- I see almost like an animation

1277
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:36,760
 because I think very visually.

1278
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:39,280
 But I just see all these people just suddenly

1279
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:42,360
 with the mycelium of Bitcoin just kind of kind of pop.

1280
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:44,600
 And then becoming like, you know, reborn.

1281
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:45,120
 Yeah.

1282
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:46,120
 You know, new person.

1283
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:46,760
 Yeah.

1284
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:47,240
 Yeah.

1285
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:48,080
 There's slow.

1286
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:48,680
 Yeah.

1287
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:50,320
 But maybe like ultimately that's what it is.

1288
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,280
 Have you read "Snow Crash" by any chance?

1289
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:52,760
 No.

1290
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:53,280
 No.

1291
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:53,680
 No.

1292
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:55,040
 It's a great science fiction book.

1293
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:57,160
 The line you mentioned before, like just like 10,

1294
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:58,840
 15 minutes ago.

1295
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,240
 Like, is it a religion or is it like, what is it?

1296
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:03,040
 It's a line from "Snow Crash."

1297
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:04,600
 And it's basically like there's--

1298
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:06,360
 "Snow Crash" it's a computer virus.

1299
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,160
 And it has this effect on people.

1300
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:09,000
 So it's--

1301
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:09,960
 It's some of the earlier--

1302
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:12,160
 I read it because of Bitcoin.

1303
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,800
 So it's got recommended by some early Bitcoiners to me.

1304
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:17,080
 And it's a fantastic book.

1305
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:17,880
 It's a fantastic book.

1306
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:19,160
 Highly recommend.

1307
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:20,160
 Yeah.

1308
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:21,040
 [LAUGHS]

1309
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,000
 So yeah, we're living in very weird times.

1310
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:28,520
 And yeah, I do remain very hopeful though.

1311
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:36,360
 Like what we saw on just the last 18 months alone.

1312
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:38,960
 Like, I talked about it the 18 months of, you know,

1313
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:40,600
 LLLAM Slop and the negative sides of it.

1314
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:41,080
 Yeah.

1315
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:45,480
 But on the positive side, like for us, for Sovereign Engineering,

1316
01:08:45,480 --> 01:08:47,800
 vibe coding is just like it's such a superpower.

1317
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:48,480
 It's so--

1318
01:08:48,480 --> 01:08:50,360
 It's such a godsend, really.

1319
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:52,640
 Because the whole point of the program

1320
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:55,800
 is to build prototypes so that we have something in hand

1321
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:59,000
 that we can discuss ideas and iterate from there and so on.

1322
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:02,520
 And building a working prototype without a vibe coding,

1323
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:04,760
 pre-vibe coding was really hard.

1324
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:06,480
 Yeah, I took some people about--

1325
01:09:06,480 --> 01:09:08,720
 Sovins pre-vibe coding.

1326
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:11,640
 It was-- it was-- it's still painful now.

1327
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:13,440
 It's still very intense now.

1328
01:09:13,440 --> 01:09:16,200
 But pre-vibe coding, it was like-- it was torture.

1329
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:17,440
 It was pure torture.

1330
01:09:17,440 --> 01:09:18,760
 [LAUGHTER]

1331
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:20,560
 And I'm speaking from experience.

1332
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:23,240
 Like, I showed-- I showed the demo that we fried it.

1333
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:24,960
 Like, I'm-- like, I'm--

1334
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,200
 you know, I try to walk the walk as well,

1335
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:28,680
 not only talk to talk.

1336
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:31,400
 And it was legit torture.

1337
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:35,040
 Now, like, you can just tell the clankers, you know,

1338
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:38,480
 like, use this, use this to deploy an end side, whatever,

1339
01:09:38,480 --> 01:09:42,560
 you know, like, can we make it work on FIPS and hit Enter?

1340
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:43,040
 Yeah.

1341
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:45,520
 And just like, watch the clanker do its thing

1342
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:47,840
 for a couple of minutes, and it just works.

1343
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:49,560
 Which, again, I think, like, for me,

1344
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,480
 we're talking about all these things falling into place.

1345
01:09:52,480 --> 01:09:55,280
 That feels like a big piece of falling into place.

1346
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:55,680
 Yeah.

1347
01:09:55,680 --> 01:10:01,080
 But what we're trying to do to unlock, you know, change things.

1348
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:01,000
 Yeah.

1349
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:06,680
 And we normalise it so quickly though, because like, so many people probably just forgotten

1350
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,160
 what it was like already, right?

1351
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:11,880
 It's become the new normal quite quickly.

1352
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:12,880
 Yeah.

1353
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:14,880
 But yeah, that's just one of those other things for me.

1354
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:21,040
 It just feels like all these, it feels like, you know, the pressure got so hard in the

1355
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:22,240
 one earth or the universe.

1356
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:24,760
 They had to burst out the other side.

1357
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:26,400
 And Bitcoin was that burst.

1358
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:30,040
 Like, if just, this is enough.

1359
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:35,280
 And it feels like, you know, just, everything's aligning in this weird way.

1360
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:39,000
 Maybe that happens because we're all aligning, I don't know.

1361
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,200
 With Bitcoin, I feel I am aligned with it, I think.

1362
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:42,200
 Yeah, I agree.

1363
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:45,680
 That's why I'm almost like in that spiritual way.

1364
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:46,680
 Yeah.

1365
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:47,680
 Like, I'm calibrated with this.

1366
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:48,680
 Yeah, yeah, isn't that strange?

1367
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:49,680
 Isn't that strange?

1368
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:51,200
 How that works, right?

1369
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:56,040
 And it's, I love the saying, you know, like, you can't change Bitcoin, but Bitcoin changes

1370
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:57,040
 you.

1371
01:10:57,040 --> 01:10:58,040
 Yeah.

1372
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:06,560
 And that's, I see, I've observed that happening for like the last 10 years, 10 years plus.

1373
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:11,480
 And, and again, to me, because I, in the beginning, I thought it might be like an early phenomenon.

1374
01:11:11,480 --> 01:11:12,480
 Yeah.

1375
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:15,880
 And the fact that it's still happening and it keeps on happening gives me a lot of hope

1376
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:20,080
 because it actually does realign people.

1377
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:25,280
 And more importantly, like it, it realigns values.

1378
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:27,040
 It realigns your value system.

1379
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:28,040
 Yeah.

1380
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:31,240
 I think that's also why it's so disorienting sometimes.

1381
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:34,240
 And so a lot of people are so repulsed by it.

1382
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:40,240
 Like if you're, if your value system is the polar opposite of the Bitcoin value system,

1383
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:41,680
 you'll be repulsed by it.

1384
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:42,680
 You'll hate it.

1385
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:43,680
 I don't imagine.

1386
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:44,880
 No, you'll hate it.

1387
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:49,360
 And, and for me, for example, like I, I never cared about money at all.

1388
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:54,960
 I didn't know, like, or about whatever the economy or like, and anything economics.

1389
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:57,560
 I had no idea I didn't care about it at all.

1390
01:11:57,560 --> 01:11:58,560
 Yeah.

1391
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:00,480
 I did the second Bitcoin came out.

1392
01:12:00,480 --> 01:12:02,000
 I didn't know about it.

1393
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:05,800
 But for me, I started caring about money and got obsessed with it.

1394
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:08,160
 Outside of Bitcoin, the very same time.

1395
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:09,160
 Really?

1396
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:10,160
 Yeah.

1397
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:11,160
 Interesting.

1398
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:12,160
 Yeah.

1399
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:13,160
 And then I found Bitcoin later.

1400
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:14,160
 Interesting.

1401
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:15,160
 Okay.

1402
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:16,160
 So you had a money phase.

1403
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:17,160
 So you, you, you had a sense.

1404
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:18,160
 Yeah.

1405
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:19,160
 And kind of making money?

1406
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:26,440
 I, I know I was obsessed with how money works, why, how the hell did this happen?

1407
01:12:26,440 --> 01:12:27,440
 This is correct.

1408
01:12:27,440 --> 01:12:29,360
 So you learned about the fiat system, the Bitcoin?

1409
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:31,400
 Like before you, before you, before you discovered Bitcoin.

1410
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:32,400
 No, the same type.

1411
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:33,400
 Yeah.

1412
01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:35,040
 But the same time Bitcoin was released.

1413
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:36,040
 Okay.

1414
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:37,040
 Okay.

1415
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:38,040
 2008.

1416
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:39,040
 Yeah.

1417
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:40,040
 Yeah.

1418
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:41,040
 Just suddenly you was.

1419
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:42,040
 Okay.

1420
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:43,040
 So there was the big financial crisis and everything went to share the news.

1421
01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:44,040
 I was really pissed off.

1422
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:45,040
 And you started digging.

1423
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:46,040
 Yeah.

1424
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:48,840
 I saw people like hate just be showing how the banks are literally.

1425
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:53,240
 Allowing the cartels to loan the money through the tele window.

1426
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:54,240
 Yeah.

1427
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:55,240
 Even the instructions and, yeah.

1428
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:57,160
 And I think there's this guy outside.

1429
01:12:57,160 --> 01:12:58,160
 Special.

1430
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:00,560
 HSBC and no one fucking cares.

1431
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:01,720
 No one cared.

1432
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:02,880
 Like no one.

1433
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:04,880
 They built special windows.

1434
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:10,320
 So the boxes fit through them exactly the size of maximum capacity.

1435
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:11,320
 Yeah.

1436
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:12,320
 Yeah.

1437
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,160
 And let's not do it as theirs again.

1438
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:15,160
 Yeah.

1439
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:16,160
 Yeah.

1440
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:17,800
 But yeah, I just, no one cared.

1441
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:18,800
 It really pissed me off.

1442
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:19,800
 Yeah.

1443
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:20,800
 And then I got obsessed with that.

1444
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:22,840
 That's the way I ended up in working in finance.

1445
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:23,840
 Interesting.

1446
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:26,720
 I saw Bitcoin and then I tried to get in Bitcoin and then I worked in finance.

1447
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:28,640
 But I was trying to do good in finance.

1448
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:29,640
 Yeah.

1449
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:30,640
 I see.

1450
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:31,640
 Change the system from the inside.

1451
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:32,640
 It doesn't work.

1452
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:33,640
 Yeah.

1453
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:35,640
 I would agree with that.

1454
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:36,640
 Absolutely.

1455
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:37,640
 That's right.

1456
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:38,640
 You got very angry.

1457
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:39,640
 Oh, wow.

1458
01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:42,480
 That's quite a, that's quite a thing.

1459
01:13:42,480 --> 01:13:43,480
 Quite a career.

1460
01:13:43,480 --> 01:13:45,480
 You got behind you.

1461
01:13:45,480 --> 01:13:46,480
 Yeah.

1462
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:47,480
 Well, yeah.

1463
01:13:47,480 --> 01:13:53,520
 Now, now for me it's interesting because like I think I mentioned a couple of days ago,

1464
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:57,360
 like I was on the, I was living in the Star Trek universe.

1465
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:00,520
 I was like, okay, we're close.

1466
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:03,760
 It seems on the physics side, we're close to figuring out fusion.

1467
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:05,400
 So let's just figure out fusion.

1468
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:08,280
 We'll have limitless energy.

1469
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:13,520
 We are doing well on kind of the nanophysics and so on side.

1470
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:14,520
 Yeah.

1471
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:16,920
 Let's figure out replicators.

1472
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:21,920
 And once we have, once we have limitless energy plus replicators, why would we need

1473
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:22,920
 money?

1474
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:23,920
 Yeah.

1475
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:27,200
 You know, like you just, you have a little microwave kind of thing or whatever and you

1476
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:29,240
 press about and anything comes out.

1477
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:30,240
 Yeah.

1478
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:31,240
 Why would you need money?

1479
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:34,080
 Like that's where, that's where my economic understanding was.

1480
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:35,080
 Yeah.

1481
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:36,080
 I think the word, sorry.

1482
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:37,080
 No, go ahead.

1483
01:14:37,080 --> 01:14:38,080
 Go ahead.

1484
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:40,080
 I think the word money is just the wrong way.

1485
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:41,080
 You know, lee one.

1486
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:43,880
 Because it's not the thing, it's not the thing you didn't have in your hand.

1487
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:45,760
 Like it's so much bigger than that.

1488
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,720
 Yeah, I mean, when, when, when, it's like a glue.

1489
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:50,680
 So like, why would you have money from now?

1490
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,240
 That's why, that's why, what could you do without it?

1491
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:55,200
 It's the blood of society.

1492
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:56,200
 Yeah.

1493
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:59,960
 And you would still need it even if you would have cold fusion and replicators.

1494
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,000
 Like I can tell all the Sunfrik fans that much.

1495
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:06,800
 The Sunfrik universe would still need money.

1496
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:10,000
 Yeah, now I watch these things. I'm like, "What's it?"

1497
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:11,000
 That's stupid.

1498
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:14,000
 And the way I think about it now, to me,

1499
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:20,000
 in the economy, money, price signals, price signals,

1500
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:23,000
 are attention tokens in some sense.

1501
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:26,000
 It's like, what should be produced, what to pay attention to?

1502
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,000
 If there's a shortage, price shoots up.

1503
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,000
 You don't need to know anything else.

1504
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:32,000
 You don't need to know why the shortage happens.

1505
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:33,000
 Nothing.

1506
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:38,000
 You just need to look at the price and there is way more profit to be made

1507
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:40,000
 when the price shoots up.

1508
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:42,000
 So the shortage will be solved.

1509
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:47,000
 Because entrepreneurial types will come in and try to make more of it and so on.

1510
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:49,000
 And then you'll find an equilibrium again and so on.

1511
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:51,000
 That's one aspect of money.

1512
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:54,000
 That you would still need if you have replicators.

1513
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:57,000
 Because the question of what to replicate still exists.

1514
01:15:57,000 --> 01:15:59,000
 You don't have infinite time.

1515
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:03,000
 So what to replicate is still, as long as time still exists,

1516
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:05,000
 you need some form of money.

1517
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:06,000
 YouTube shows this very clearly.

1518
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,000
 The money inside YouTube is attention.

1519
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:10,000
 It's watch time and it's attention.

1520
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:11,000
 And it's literally the money.

1521
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:13,000
 It's literally how everything is measured.

1522
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:17,000
 And you need to have some price signal in an economy,

1523
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:21,000
 in a complex system, to coordinate consumption and production.

1524
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:22,000
 YouTube has the two.

1525
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:25,000
 You have limitless supply, basically.

1526
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:27,000
 You still need money.

1527
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:31,000
 You still need some type of money to answer the question of like,

1528
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:33,000
 what should I present you next, for example.

1529
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:35,000
 Like all those kinds of things.

1530
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:42,000
 And so I obviously changed my mind on a lot of things and had to burn my old self to the ground once.

1531
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:45,000
 I started aligning with Bitcoin.

1532
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:52,000
 Now I really care about money, but only in the sense of capital M money.

1533
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:56,000
 What money is and how it should work and what is a healthy money and what isn't.

1534
01:16:56,000 --> 01:17:02,000
 And in the same sense, I care about Bitcoin in a capital B Bitcoin kind of sense.

1535
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:11,000
 I care about, again, if I'm getting wiped for whatever reason, I don't care.

1536
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:19,000
 If my wake up and my sad balance, my family would care.

1537
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:22,000
 My wife would care.

1538
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:24,000
 But that's not what I'm doing this stuff.

1539
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:34,000
 I really care about capital B Bitcoin and being along for the ride mostly, I guess.

1540
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:40,000
 And kind of trying to do what I can to be a midwife to some of the ideas at least.

1541
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:54,000
 I think I've been around the coin long enough to have a lot of exposure to a lot of the different ideas.

1542
01:17:54,000 --> 01:18:02,000
 And I developed the taste to come back to that metaphor of what has a chance of working and what doesn't.

1543
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:10,000
 And so that's what gives me a lot of joy on the Sovereign Engineering side.

1544
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:19,000
 Being on the forefront and seeing what people come up with and having discussions around the various projects and ideas and prototypes and so on and so forth.

1545
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:22,000
 But yeah, you were knocked out on the boat yesterday.

1546
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:24,000
 I went around interviewing everyone.

1547
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:32,000
 I'll ask the same question to you now. Looking back at the last six weeks, what were your highlights?

1548
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:35,000
 Like anything goes in terms of projects or stuff that happens.

1549
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:42,000
 I had a bit of a wow, this is real moment.

1550
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:53,000
 So obviously, it brings a slightly different perspective from design and very user focused, a very smallest interaction focused and what even like a mundane thing.

1551
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:54,000
 It kind of does.

1552
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:57,000
 And a big thing, I've tried a lot of different things with our capella go.

1553
01:18:57,000 --> 01:18:59,000
 All the things have been tried in different ways.

1554
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:02,000
 Some of them didn't work. Some of the better hours.

1555
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:06,000
 But one big thing is just having it on your phone because we're phone centric.

1556
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:09,000
 So if you've got a node, you need access from your phone.

1557
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:12,000
 I didn't really think that the existing apps are very good.

1558
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:15,000
 Like I love Zeus, but like Zeus isn't working for me.

1559
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:17,000
 It won't connect to my node. I'm not sure why.

1560
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:23,000
 So I've made a companion app. And I was like, oh, and then we need to use a VPN.

1561
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:32,000
 What VPN we use? How do we make this all completely frictionless and not the model where you need to download the app you don't know about to be able to make it work?

1562
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:35,000
 And I implemented FIPS.

1563
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:43,000
 And it didn't matter if I was on Wi-Fi or on the 5D, scanned the thing with my mobile app.

1564
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:49,000
 It connects to my node. And it was just incredibly fast.

1565
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:55,000
 It was the craziest thing I've ever seen. I think it was faster than on the local area network on my laptop.

1566
01:19:55,000 --> 01:20:00,000
 And then I went away from it and different...

1567
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:04,000
 and on 5G, like, you know,

1568
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:08,000
 earlier the physical space between doesn't really matter.

1569
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,000
 Yeah, and it was still fast.

1570
01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:12,000
 And I was just showing this to everyone.

1571
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:14,000
 I was just like...

1572
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:16,000
 You don't understand.

1573
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:18,000
 You don't understand when you're witnessing.

1574
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:20,000
 Yeah, at one point I was like,

1575
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,000
 "I thought it wasn't real."

1576
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:24,000
 So, it's like, it's got wrong.

1577
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:26,000
 Am I hallucinating?

1578
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:28,000
 Yeah. And then I showed it to

1579
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:30,000
 one of the guys,

1580
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:32,000
 I was like the fifth, sixth person.

1581
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:34,000
 I was like, I'm showing to them,

1582
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:36,000
 but they all know this.

1583
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:38,000
 He just goes, "Yeah, fifth is fast."

1584
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:41,000
 So, yeah, I think, yeah,

1585
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,000
 "FIPS." I didn't get my "FIPS" thing last time

1586
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:45,000
 when it was such a big thing.

1587
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:49,000
 And then I came here and it's been quite a theme.

1588
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:51,000
 So, it's an obvious one, but like,

1589
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:53,000
 that really...

1590
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:55,000
 I thought about your talk,

1591
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:59,000
 and I thought about the cypher punks in the 90s or 80s,

1592
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:01,000
 or whenever that cover was.

1593
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:05,000
 And then I felt like we were in the new version of that.

1594
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:09,000
 Now, we had a big, big feeling.

1595
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:12,000
 And again, not a head feeling, like a body.

1596
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:14,000
 But it goes up and down.

1597
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:17,000
 I just go up and down between nihilism and amakay.

1598
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:21,000
 And now it's between absolute, like, total faith.

1599
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:25,000
 Hope to maybe it might work.

1600
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:27,000
 So, it's like the high, higher.

1601
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:29,000
 That's just how it goes.

1602
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:30,000
 That's just how it goes.

1603
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:33,000
 There was also a reoccurring theme yesterday on the board

1604
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:34,000
 when I talked to everyone.

1605
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:36,000
 It's like, you know, Sovereign Engineering is great,

1606
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:39,000
 but it has like very high highs and very low lows.

1607
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:41,000
 Yeah.

1608
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:45,000
 It's like, extreme highs and extreme lows.

1609
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:47,000
 Yeah, that's how it goes.

1610
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:48,000
 So, what's next for you?

1611
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:50,000
 What comes after Sovereign Engineering?

1612
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:51,000
 Do you know already?

1613
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,000
 We're tomorrow is going to be our last day.

1614
01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:59,000
 So, archipelago, just keep on doing it.

1615
01:21:59,000 --> 01:22:02,000
 I don't even have to think about money to make it work.

1616
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:05,000
 It's just the thing I was working on as well.

1617
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:08,000
 I believe in trying it anyway.

1618
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:10,000
 It's not like this is going to fix everything.

1619
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:12,000
 It's just, I want to make it.

1620
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:16,000
 But since I've dedicated myself to Bitcoin,

1621
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:20,000
 and again, it wasn't my variable that made that determination,

1622
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:22,000
 I wasn't able to make it for myself.

1623
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:24,000
 It happened when it had no other options.

1624
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:25,000
 Bitcoin was the only path.

1625
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:27,000
 It was the only viable path.

1626
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:32,000
 And ever since I've done that, you know,

1627
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:34,000
 everything's just got better and better.

1628
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:37,000
 I work on the things I want to work on things, you know,

1629
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:38,000
 that I didn't make up.

1630
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:42,000
 This is my dream to work at London's stock exchange or something like that.

1631
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:45,000
 And I'm getting more exposure in the community that

1632
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:49,000
 it wasn't, I don't think this community allows you in like super easy

1633
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,000
 into their hearts and so it was mine.

1634
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:54,000
 Like, not because they don't want you,

1635
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:58,000
 but like I think you need to do some pre-for work.

1636
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:00,000
 I'm not surprised at all.

1637
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:03,000
 Like a bunch of, you know, highly skeptical,

1638
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:06,000
 highly paranoid people, you know.

1639
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:09,000
 Like everyone you don't know is a spook.

1640
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:11,000
 You know, those kind of mindsets.

1641
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:17,000
 And then just, you know, I mean, to me what's awesome is that

1642
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:19,000
 we have such varied backgrounds in Sovereign Engineering.

1643
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:21,000
 People come from all over the place.

1644
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:26,000
 But everyone kind of like to end up that type of person,

1645
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:29,000
 you just, you went through a lot of shit, you know.

1646
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:34,000
 And it was like everyone, you know, had their various rock pools

1647
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:36,000
 along their path.

1648
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:40,000
 And so I think the skepticism and the,

1649
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:44,000
 you know, like the in-group dynamic that forms it comes from a,

1650
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:47,000
 from lots of trauma, you know.

1651
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:50,000
 And from a good place as well, like people want to be protective.

1652
01:23:50,000 --> 01:24:00,000
 But yeah, no, I mean, I'm going to give you the same small piece of advice

1653
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:03,000
 that I gave you the very first time I think we spoke.

1654
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:06,000
 You'll have to push Archipelago out into the open.

1655
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:07,000
 Yeah, yeah.

1656
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:09,000
 Like you really have to do it.

1657
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:11,000
 The stone is very polished.

1658
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:12,000
 Yeah.

1659
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:14,000
 The stone is very, very polished.

1660
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:17,000
 It's just a new way of life for me.

1661
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:18,000
 Yeah, yeah.

1662
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:21,000
 You'll have to let, you'll have to let people look at the,

1663
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:24,000
 marvel at the diamond you have been polishing for like many, many, many months.

1664
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:25,000
 Yeah.

1665
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:26,000
 Thanks.

1666
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:28,000
 So yeah, really like seriously good job on Archipelago.

1667
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:29,000
 Thank you.

1668
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:30,000
 It's really, really good.

1669
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:33,000
 And I'm glad that, you know, like,

1670
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:38,000
 FIPS was one small puzzle piece that made one thing like working better and so on.

1671
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:43,000
 And that's just what gives me a lot of joy that lots of the things that came out of

1672
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:44,000
 Sovereign Engineering.

1673
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:48,000
 It, like the whole goal is to build these little puzzle pieces that just make,

1674
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:50,000
 with stuff, everything worked better.

1675
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:52,000
 Like from itself, summer and perspective.

1676
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:53,000
 Yeah.

1677
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:55,000
 And it's, I'm really glad that it's working.

1678
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:56,000
 Yeah.

1679
01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:59,000
 For me, this was the place I needed to go to make Archipelago the best it possibly could be.

1680
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:00,000
 I don't think any work.

1681
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:03,000
 else would provide me with that information.

1682
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:04,000
 - It's enough to do that.

1683
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:08,000
 - Just to provide people, like, who, together, like,

1684
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:13,000
 archipelago, I can do it right outside the design.

1685
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:17,000
 But yeah, in the answer to your question, just Bitcoin.

1686
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:19,000
 And get more Bitcoin work, more Bitcoin design,

1687
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:23,000
 helping people on open-source projects make the more diamond-looking.

1688
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:24,000
 - Awesome.

1689
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:27,000
 So all the deaths that might be hearing that, like,

1690
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:31,000
 the two and a half that are left, yeah, they should reach out to you.

1691
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:32,000
 - Yeah, yeah.

1692
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:33,000
 - Awesome.

1693
01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:37,000
 - It's a pleasure to help in whatever way I can on people's projects.

1694
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:38,000
 - Awesome, awesome.

1695
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:40,000
 All the Clankers will put everything in the show notes.

1696
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:41,000
 I won't do shit, man.

1697
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:43,000
 It's such a godsend as well.

1698
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:47,000
 Like, that's what I want to do more of, is, like, just produce very real artifacts.

1699
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:50,000
 And, like, the Clankers can derive some stuff from that.

1700
01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:53,000
 But, you know, like, this recording is not that I'm generated.

1701
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:54,000
 - Yeah, yeah.

1702
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:57,000
 - Like, similar, I think, similar about my writing and my apps as well.

1703
01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:01,000
 It's like, it really has to come from a very pure place.

1704
01:26:01,000 --> 01:26:04,000
 And if you do some Clankering around that, like, that's perfectly fine.

1705
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:05,000
 - Clankering around the edges.

1706
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:06,000
 - Yeah, exactly.

1707
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:07,000
 Clankering around the edges.

1708
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:12,000
 But the human soul has to produce the artifact.

1709
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:13,000
 - Yeah.

1710
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:15,000
 - That's kind of, it has to be the driving force.

1711
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:19,000
 Like, if we put the Clankers in charge, we're going to be in hell very soon.

1712
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:21,000
 - We have to be the higher power.

1713
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:22,000
 - Absolutely.

1714
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:23,000
 Absolutely.

1715
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:26,000
 - And the last words before we press stop.

1716
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:27,000
 - No.

1717
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:28,000
 - So I'm pretty done.

1718
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:29,000
 (laughing)

1719
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:33,000
 - I'm happy to continue as well.

1720
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:37,000
 - I just had one comment earlier from earlier.

1721
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:41,000
 It was just about how Bitcoin changes people when you've seen it.

1722
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:43,000
 - Let's do one more walk to the snare some back.

1723
01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:45,000
 - Are you up for it?

1724
01:26:45,000 --> 01:26:46,000
 - Yeah.

1725
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:47,000
 - Yeah?

1726
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:48,000
 - No?

1727
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:49,000
 - I don't want to...

1728
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:51,000
 - I just reminded because I wanted to say it.

1729
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:59,000
 But the most fascinating thing for me about that part is that how I've seen people transformed

1730
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:05,000
 by it that are not technical or not a developer, not even a money person.

1731
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:10,000
 And also their transformation is very spiritual looking as well.

1732
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:12,000
 Like, the blow is my mind.

1733
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:13,000
 It's real.

1734
01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:14,000
 It's not like a trick.

1735
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:15,000
 - Yeah.

1736
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:19,000
 - Like, that's crazy to me.

1737
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:23,000
 I think there's an essence of Bitcoin we can't see.

1738
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:24,000
 But just...

1739
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:29,000
 - I think the universe is telling us to turn around and remain in the shade.

1740
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:31,000
 (laughing)

1741
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:33,000
 - But yeah, that was a bit of a comment.

1742
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:35,000
 - A while chainsaw appears.

1743
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,000
 We're not going to head down that path.

1744
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:48,000
 But yeah, to me it's also fascinating that it has been an entry point to a lot of people

1745
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:53,000
 who are rediscovering more traditional facets of their own culture

1746
01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:57,000
 and becoming more religious and returning to Christianity, for example,

1747
01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:58,000
 and those types of things.

1748
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:01,000
 Or wherever you're coming from, lots of people I interface with,

1749
01:28:01,000 --> 01:28:03,000
 you can't have a Christian background.

1750
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:04,000
 - Given things.

1751
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:05,000
 - And it's a second look as well.

1752
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:06,000
 - Yeah.

1753
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:11,000
 And yeah, it's interesting because I think what you said is very right.

1754
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:14,000
 It's a real phenomenon.

1755
01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:19,000
 Those people aren't faking it. They don't sign up to an orthodox church,

1756
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:22,000
 just for whatever.

1757
01:28:22,000 --> 01:28:24,000
 But it's a broader phenomenon.

1758
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:27,000
 This is happening outside of Bitcoin as well.

1759
01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:31,000
 And some people talk about it points to what you mentioned before

1760
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:33,000
 with just the pressure got too high.

1761
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:35,000
 It's something I had to burst through.

1762
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:38,000
 And so there is the concept of the re-emergence of the sacred, basically.

1763
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:41,000
 And to me, Bitcoin definitely is a sacred artifact.

1764
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:43,000
 It really is.

1765
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:46,000
 It's just like of utmost importance.

1766
01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:51,000
 And lots of people I agree, I think that's in part what the spam wars are over

1767
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:54,000
 because graffiti is a form of defiling something.

1768
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:57,000
 And so the sacred artifact gets defiled with spam.

1769
01:28:57,000 --> 01:29:00,000
 And that's why people are religious about it.

1770
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:02,000
 They really are religious about it.

1771
01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:04,000
 As they should be, I think.

1772
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:09,000
 That's kind of...

1773
01:29:09,000 --> 01:29:12,000
 I don't know.

1774
01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:16,000
 What's also interesting to me is that a lot of people talk about these things,

1775
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:18,000
 they don't see Bitcoin at all.

1776
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:21,000
 And definitely not this is a spiritual artifact.

1777
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:26,000
 And so, yeah, I think this will happen eventually.

1778
01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:31,000
 The bridge between the conversations about the re-emergence of the sacred

1779
01:29:31,000 --> 01:29:34,000
 and kind of...

1780
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:36,000
 Like with sacred money, that's how I see it.

1781
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:38,000
 And money is actually important.

1782
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:41,000
 It's just like having sacred texts and sacred language.

1783
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:44,000
 There's some languages that are sacred in the sense of, you know,

1784
01:29:44,000 --> 01:29:47,000
 there are some verses and some lines and so on that are sacred.

1785
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:49,000
 They are being chanted, for example,

1786
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:52,000
 and have been chanted for thousands of years and so on and so forth.

1787
01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:58,000
 And people understand how important language is.

1788
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:00,000
 Again, like the logos, you know, the logos are sacred.

1789
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:03,480
 Christianity. It is like in the beginning there was the word, you know, it's like

1790
01:30:03,480 --> 01:30:08,320
 people have an intuitive understanding how important languages they don't have

1791
01:30:08,320 --> 01:30:12,120
 an intuitive understanding of how important money is. And it's on a similar

1792
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:15,180
 level and the Bible will tell you like only Golden Silver everything else is

1793
01:30:15,180 --> 01:30:18,600
 shitcoin. It will literally tell you, you know, but you know Bible was written

1794
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:24,280
 pre-Bitcoins, so we'll have to, you know, doing a man or something. But yeah, it's

1795
01:30:24,280 --> 01:30:33,280
 all the denominations that came out of the first religion. Yeah, yeah, we'll see

1796
01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:38,200
 we'll see what happens with all that. Like I just in the interest of my sanity I

1797
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:43,960
 stepped away from this a little bit like took my foot off the gas because I just

1798
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:48,000
 I still have to operate in the normal life basically, you know, like in the real

1799
01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:52,480
 world to some degree. Not be too embarrassing when I, you know, go out with

1800
01:30:52,480 --> 01:30:55,800
 my wife or something. Yeah, so those kinds of things. I've already been like I hear

1801
01:30:55,800 --> 01:31:00,520
 one. But it's still it's still happening. And like it I would be actually

1802
01:31:00,520 --> 01:31:07,000
 interested to hear from people that where this kind of alignment and this

1803
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:11,520
 transformation was rather recent, you know, like for me it's just a long time

1804
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:15,640
 ago. Like eight years ago, you know, where I had like I was reborn in some sense.

1805
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:20,520
 And but I know I know that it's still going on. Like people reach out to me

1806
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:25,080
 sometimes and I hear from people that yeah, I got lost a few times during it as

1807
01:31:25,080 --> 01:31:32,280
 well. But initially I was reborn perfectly. But I was led astray. That's how it works.

1808
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:36,960
 So I'm here. Yeah, you see the light but you can't stare into it. You'll turn

1809
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:42,840
 blind. That's just how it goes. All right, let's keep it there. Yeah. Big hug.

1810
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:50,880
 There was great. Yeah, there was great. I'll have to find the stop button. We didn't hit

1811
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:56,440
 skateboarding. I'm surprised. Oh, yeah. But maybe maybe we'll manage next time.

1812
01:31:56,440 --> 01:32:02,880
 Maybe we'll manage next time. Yeah, I don't think anyone's done that yet.

1813
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:10,200
 Skateboard in the big frame. We'll do it. We'll do it. All right, that looks good.

1814
01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:13,400
 Yeah, 90 minutes on the spot.