yeah let's just continue and let's do start ugly yeah so it's it was kind of leading into it yeah
good okay episode one is that's let me see let me see if everything still works
man that's good i'm having fun already so it's already working it's already working yeah yeah
we might even get an mp3 out of it okay yeah that's the goal so okay that's officially now episode one
okay that's correct fantastic good okay so yeah like like we said in the in the awesome teaser
which one the first one or the second one the second one the first official one um we we wanna
we landed on some themes basically and um one of them one of them was basically uh start ugly like
don't be afraid to ship whatever you have in some sense and uh why do you think that's important or
why do we or maybe maybe a follow-up question to that like why do you think are so many
so many deaths that we work with have hangups with that
i mean to me every time i ship something that i know it's incomplete uh alpha or whatever
it is a very vulnerable space um so a lot of it is just the the insecurity of i know i i could do
better but that's the thing that you can always do better right so given that that that um that way
of approaching the problem you will never ship um so you have to be there's no perfection right
yeah there is no perfection you have to you have to find the comfort in shipping something that you
know it's imperfect um there there is uh what's the ugliest thing you ever shipped
oh my lord uh that's a it's a tough question everything
um i oh yeah no i i know what it is i oh the tunnel with the echo is gonna be interesting
uh we're gonna make it they have to suffer so so so right now we're walking through a tunnel that is
dug into the uh into the shore of uh of the island uh so it's gonna be a bit echoey no it's gonna be
perfect we're gonna fix it in post uh you know so the the the ugliest thing i've shipped i was
accident i accidentally shipped the honeypot wallet uh because i was testing publishing stuff on on
substore so it was radically incomplete so there was complete stuff that was like for example if you
published an event with your so the honeypot wallet is um an ip60 a nutsack wallet uh and if you were
to publish a token and the publishing fail because you didn't have internet or whatever it didn't save
it locally or it didn't even retry to save the tokens so it was it's very much uh probably the
ugliest thing i've shipped but do you regret it or you still think it's the right approach
i mean get it out and deteriorate i i think it's always the right approach to ship something
especially if you if you say this is broken in these ways or you know in this super testing is
great at that yeah oh yeah super testing is the archetype um if you if you if you disclose that okay
this doesn't work or like this other part is broken or like the onboarding process of of the honeypot
wallet says you will probably lose all your money uh that you put here uh but uh but the the cool thing
is that if you ship something that is broken um it's much more likely that you will get bullied into
fixing it rather than if you just keep it local and say oh once i fix this bad i will aim for
perfection yeah and you'll get to the point where you will always find something that can be more
optimized you will always find something that could be nicer that could be yeah more closer to what you
think it should be um so you can always find an excuse to not ship um so i think not shipping is never
the approach yeah yeah no i agree i mean uh who was it i think it was david heidenmeyer hansen of all
people the guy who hated bitcoin starting in 2010 he changed his mind by the way he changed his mind i
like him a lot but i think it comes from him right happiness is shipping and so yes try to try to bring
it into a state where it's just like you can ship it as fast as possible like just basically it's the
super ugliest pre-alpha mvp and just ship it and i think i think to be fair a lot of people in our
space in the nostril space did that right like i remember the first version of nostril boat which was
like ugly as fuck and i was like oh my lord what is this but it worked and and they iterated and
iterated and now it's a you know like uh stuff works and it's everything is way better and all those
kind of things and um yeah i i was just surprised like we i think also the theme of course starting
ugly is very meta for this thing you know like it's gonna be uh we're trying to practice what we preach
but i think it's very important to make it real like it doesn't matter if it's beautiful it doesn't
matter if it's perfect once it's real that's what it's basically what you said as well it's like you're
gonna get you're gonna get feedback you're gonna be you know like bullied into fixing things and all
those kind of things and once you once you push anything out it doesn't matter what it is it
doesn't matter if it's software or a piece of artwork or a piece of writing or even an idea or
what have you then it's real then it's in other people's heads then other people know that this
exists and then it kind of takes a life uh it takes on a life of its own and and i think that's
that's why it's so important to just ship it out don't try don't try to you know like make it
perfect and don't it's it kind of it's not about you it's about the idea and it's about the thing
it's not about you and and the thing is that once the idea or the software whatever it is it's out
there it can evolve whereas if it's contained just within your computer just within your mind
the the uh the environment is not as aggressive it cannot evolve as fast yeah it doesn't have as
many inputs um and i i also think there's something to be said about the fact that
we are kind of we are our habits and if you get in the habit of not shipping oh absolutely then you
become a person that doesn't ship it's also you know about the the i don't know if it was a study
or whatever or i i have no idea but basically they they ran they had two groups of students and i think
it was like a pottery class or something like that and uh one group of students um got the
task of you will be graded by your masterpiece and you have like six months to make your masterpiece
and you can do whatever but at the end one masterpiece has to come out and the other group of students
was told it doesn't matter what you do you will be graded by the amount of pottery things that you
produce by the amount of whatever vases you you you push out and the group that did basically shipped
constantly they actually produced the masterpieces they actually like the the things were so much
better because it's just about you have to get into the habit of getting stuff out and and just
doing the next thing and getting that out and so on and so forth so yeah no surprise i i actually
experienced that very uh very much personally uh in the past few months or in the past year i mean
you started and abandoned i don't know so many more projects than everyone else combined i think
no but that's that's a what what so for example what happened with highlighter i think highlighter is
such a good example of what not to do because with highlighter i started with one idea which was your idea
uh the uh the um purple text orange highlights uh so i started with that idea and then it morphed
into this other thing and then it morphed into this other thing and it went through like like six
different different um uh products so different different value props um and it got to the point
where i rewrote the code so many times without actually shipping it because it was kind of in prototype
stage constantly it got to the point where i was i mean everybody that interface with highlighter is
confused on what the fuck is highlighter um and and even i was completely confused on what is highlighter
and and it's got to the point where i haven't shipped the the the code of highlighter in like
three different revisions so like the product that is live now the one that i that i have locally
completely different thing completely different thing but every time i think oh i need to publish this
why are you so afraid pablo i well
it's because it has an awesome domain that's why that's that's the thing right the stakes are very high
um no but but every time i think about shipping i think i haven't shipped for so long these codeways
that once i ship it must be a masterpiece it must be fucking perfect yeah and that prevents me from
shipping it prevents it says me ah you know let's just go and work on you from happiness because
happiness is shipping happiness is shipping 100 so we are also not perfect yeah no but i i find it
fascinating that i am the same person when i'm writing code on highlighter and i am the same person
when i'm writing code on on whatever it might be on on olas on ndk on on whatever it is yeah
but in in ndk i can cut a release just like that on olas i can ship just like that in highlighter
i i get like stage fright okay it's a big thing okay i see yeah yeah but but i think that's why
it's important that we kind of talk about all those things because we when
a lot of the things that are the right thing to do are actually also hard and i think we know this
from from the bitcoin world where uh you know like being self-sovereign for example it's actually
hard but you just you have to kind of it's like getting up in the morning and going for a run
or getting up in the morning and jumping into a fucking cold plunge or whatever it's like it's
hard every time you have to find ways to force yourself every time in some sense you know and
and i mean on the bitcoin side and that's also that's it's part of this experiment right now which
i hope we will land on some things on an ostracite that are condensed almost like memes like we have
in the bitcoin space right where it's like everyone kind of knows that shit is hard and it takes a lot
of responsibility but we landed on you know not your keys not your coins for example and all those
kind of things and everyone kind of there is a mutual shared understanding of how things work how
things should work and uh what is the implication of of this what is the implication of not your keys
not your coins it's the implication is actually you have to sit down and do the things and take the
responsibility of actually you know taking care of your stuff and all those kind of things and i think
on on on the nostril side my hope is that we land on a on similar things i care mostly about the
developer perspective like mostly about what does it mean to build in the nostril ecosystem it means
shipping something that's super ugly and super imperfect and very weird and very confusing and
just pushing it out the door and see seeing what happens it's like nostril is the testnet
i mean everything that happened so far shows this very clearly you know it's like there is no testnet
there's like nostril is the testnet just push it out and treat it as such
yeah very much so and i definitely agree i definitely agree that um landing on the on the memes uh on on this
knowledge um it's super important because it's it's hard and we've seen it even within cyber engineering
where we see the same people making the same category of mistake um and they don't have the words
like that's something that that i keep coming back to they don't have the words to explain
why that approach is wrong they just work on one approach they found find the limitations
the drawbacks of that approach and then they change to an approach that is different but it's
within the same category of mistakes and then they have to work for a few more months to reach the
same conclusion and it's just because they don't have the category of what is the mistake yeah yeah
yeah i i i but i i mean to be fair it's also i think hard and confusing if you come from a regular
you know client server architecture kind of everything is a rest api style of development
and and and kind of find your footing in the nostra way of doing things and there absolutely is a
way of doing things just like there is a bitcoin way of doing things and i i mean one of the
comparisons that we often um that we have been drawing over the last couple months is like
especially for example if you build a bitcoin product once you go down the path of uh of being
a custodian for someone else's money you're already you know like you're not only with like one foot in
hell you're already in hell 100 because you're gonna you know like everything that that that it
will bite you in the it's such a small decision basically in some sense you know like technically
speaking maybe or or or or it doesn't feel like such a big thing but it's like a make or break
decision it's it's it's if you if you want to actually don't turn yourself into coinbase like
if you hold if you hold money for someone else you're gonna be as shitty as coinbase down the line
there's no escape from that yeah the the success case of when you make that one bad decision
that one fork in the road the success stage is living a life that you were trying to live the
opposite of that life right like like i don't think brian armstrong wanted to run a compliance
department and uh uh a spying uh agency with chain analysis and all these things um yeah you have to
someone with a very large stick is at your door at all times you have to and it's it's super
interesting you you used to say a lot and this is a no solutions uh exclusive oh there's gonna because
you i i never told you this um but um you used to say a lot um that lean alden say i said at some
stage uh i think it was in oslo or something uh if you're a bitcoin company you don't you don't want
to hold your customer's case you don't uh you don't want to hold your yeah i love the code yeah
and i i remember at the time i was working on insect bunker yeah i told you it was a shit idea
yeah well but i mean yes yes so i had to go through like the whole process of saying oh fuck this is so
bad yeah this this could get ugly so fast yeah um and then finding the ways of shutting it down
in a in in the right way of shutting it down which yeah from my perspective shutting it down
meant yeah breaking it uh not saying that i was not going to work on that because i didn't want
other people to work on that because i i think it's just it's not a bad idea for me it's just a bad
idea yeah i agree um but it's a it's a very compelling idea oh you make it so easy for
everyone oh the onboarding is solved but that's the thing and i think we don't have we don't have good
um i mean not your keys not your coins is the closest we have but it's like the the you cannot
abstract this away meaningfully basically it's like if you freedom implies responsibility and you
you will need to be responsible uh on the bitcoin sign for your keys for example you know like you
need to be there's other things like there's there's similar examples where they're just again
like there is no solution like suko's triangle is a good one it's like naming there is no you can't
have handles in nostril without the trusted third party you can't have like at you know their gg
whatever it is and it it's it's impossible it's an impossible problem so there literally
it's a provable unsolvable problem so so there literally are no solutions and the the trade-off we
landed on with you know like nipple 5 and those kind of things it's like okay we rely on dns as
the trusted third party basically and again i think that all the verified services i also think
it's actually a bad idea because it's like it should be your own domain like that that would be the idea
but but anyway i think and also understanding it as a as a discoverability of how do you get to the
pubkey in the same way that dns is how do you get to the ip address exactly is it's not that is your
identity yes is your pubkey is your identity and you arrive to the to the pubkey via the nipple
file yeah and but i want to come back to the the quote of of linalden uh a bitcoin company doesn't
want to hold your bitcoin and i think it's it hits the nail on the head and i think that's what makes
it so different but it doesn't mean that bitcoin companies can't exist and it doesn't mean that
bitcoin companies can't make money you just have to think about things differently and i mean of course
you know there's like collaborative custody solutions and there's a ton of financial services that
actually do not need to hold your money for you there's still lots of things that you can do and
make money on and i think the reason why i go into detail with all of this on the bitcoin side because
i think that absolutely the same thing applies to the nostril side absolutely the same thing
it's it's not necessarily about money but it's like you can you can provide useful services
without holding your customers hostage yeah and i think that's what we
have to kind of really nail and and i think that's the the vision and the story we really
have to nail because it's actually possible and it's not like a pipe dream or whatever it's like
it's it's you can create something and build something that's super valuable that's super useful
and you can make money and you can do it without requiring anyone's permission and that's kind of the
story i want to tell and that's that's and and and i was surprised that a lot of developers
have a hard time seeing that and also have a hard time believing that and
to to stick with the theme of you know like starting ugly i think you have to take this leap
of faith and just go for it and try it out and iterate along the way because i can't tell you yet
like what is the cookie cutter recipe which we have for web 2.0 for example where it's like you
raise a bunch of pc money and so on and you do all that yeah exactly and you squeeze them and
like then everything goes to shit and that's kind of the cycle the web has been in so far
and i really think we can break the cycle i really think we can break the cycle all the platforms so
far everything that was great it all went to shit it all and i think it's it is because of the
monetization thing you know it is because you have to actually capture everyone and squeeze everyone
it's unavoidable it's unavoidable you just can't escape those incentives but but but but it's not
unavoidable unavoidable from a business perspective there is great multi-generational businesses there's
great multi-generational fucking restaurants you know where it's like this restaurant existed for
like 300 years and it's still like you know the whatever in in like some valley and they still make
great food and they still make a profit and i think we can do that in cyberspace i really think
we can do that and that's kind of what i want to you know like hopefully figure out along the way how
what is the recipe to actually do that and how can you do it without falling into all the dark patterns
that you know the current iteration of the web brought us yeah to me it's interesting because you can
you can build everything surrounding a noster but then if you try to to monetize in the in the old
ways you're actually just building uh a company in the in the legacy system it's just kind of maybe
like mines.com i think is kind of a if a it's a good example where it was kind of noster for a while but but
not really um we sadly we have many of those of those examples right now um of companies that are
kind of noster but in reality is a little bit adjacent kind of or turn like start out well and
then turn themselves more and more into noster in name only yeah exactly and and i think that comes
from from fear like if you think that your users are only going to choose you because they don't have a
fucking choice yeah that like what does that say about you coming back to the restaurant analogy
it's like you know all the users like all the all all the patrons come in and you just lock the door
and it's like you have to eat you know i'm only going to let you out if you if your bill is a hundred
bucks or higher you know like that's the that's kind of that's how the web currently operates it's
very weird but but i think and and that's the thing i i think we don't yet because noster is so so
nascent and even bitcoin um it's so it's so young that we don't have good examples because when i
when i've talked about monetization and noster a few times i get the question of can you point to
an example of a profitable company that is doing seven eight whatever number of figures it's like
no bro like we have like 10 users what are you talking about uh hey hey we have a strong circular
economy of like the same the same 20 people stepping around over and over again what do you
mean it's like flourishing um but but at the same time bitcoiners you know what you can point to you
can point to things actually making money and you can point to that in most other areas um like i i
always i i go to the value for value side and the artist and so on like no one on spotify makes any
money no artist yeah but if you switch to noster and you put your music in noster you will make
like 20 bucks a week or something in saps and shit and and it feels like nothing but it's like
10 000x when you get on spotify literally it's literally like for the smaller artist it's literally
like 10 000x it's like because they get absolutely nothing and i think on the on the business and kind
of monetization side i still think it's i kind of agree with you there's way too early to go too deep into
this um like how could we monetize and so on but the fact of the matter is that we have a lot of paid
services that actually do make money i'm not saying they're profitable but we have paid relays we have
you know like the paid media upload thingies and all those kind of things paid verification stuff and
so on subvertise me the plus of servers yeah yeah yeah i was surprised to get that and and so so money
is flowing through the system and it's not much yet but you don't i don't think you need a lot of
um kind of imagination to see where this could go with you know the user base a hundred access a
thousand access and so on and i mean we have all the room for growth in the world because like going
from 20 users to like eight billion that's a lot of percentage points you know yeah that's what that
was kind of where i was going that that bitcoiners into uh leaning to austrian economics and praxeology and first
principles thinking and all these things and then they tell you oh no you have to show me the point
to the to the example that works right now no you have to to extrapolate and you have to to imagine
um and you you have to to me it's all about like self-confidence you have to have the confidence that
you can create something so valuable that someone will be willing to pay without being forced to pay
yeah yeah uh and what do you what you say about the the artist and the value for value i i think
that is such a perfect example of um because the way i see it is we have all this busy money we have
all these uh just in in the legacy world um of companies that they don't really need to make a profit
uh you know is the cheap money keeps them alive and and the game they're playing is it's just it's just
it's just a different game they're not really trying to create utility they're just trying to
bump numbers right to just yeah just go get the um get to the next round um and the whole point
is to create a unicorn right yeah the whole point is to go well yeah now a unicorn is nothing like
unicorn is one bill yeah yeah you you you you want to sell out kind of the whole point is to sell out
exactly and i think that model just doesn't work anymore it's just that model will
die both in the legacy and in nothing will never happen um and i think the the the model that i mean
in some sense it's also very much found to easy money right in some hundred percent yeah yeah exactly
a lot of it exactly um it it it is only possible because of the of the cheap money yeah um and i just
don't see but i i see companies trying to create that same model to replicate that same model within
nostril and i just think that that will never exist i think it will be corners corners yeah i hope so i
hope so the the the picture i have in my mind i mean the the the kind of the slogan i i i try to
run with uh but i already got some bush pushback because it's it's like too too childish but it's like
you can create a lemonade stand in cyberspace and and and the reason why i like it is because you don't
need unless you live in canada or whatever kind of you know communist state you don't need a license
and you don't need a permission slip to open up a lemonade stand you could even be like you know
eight years old and you just get the lemonade stand going and you and and and it's also i think it's a
it's a nice metaphor because you don't know what this could turn into like if you're really into it
this could turn into a profitable business and kind of that's that's that's what i want to get out
there that like there is like probably half a million javascript devs right now that could start
something that produces a set flow and they don't know about it so i i just want them to know because
making money is awesome you know like capitalism is awesome and and and we have all the right tools
now i think to to actually do that and pursue that and i think uh coming back to the restaurant analogy
like a busy street with a an awesome restaurant on it is beneficial to absolutely everyone it's
beneficial to the street it's beneficial to the restaurant owner and it's beneficial to the
competition as well and and i think that's what we have in nostril that's why i like the the busy
street with lots of restaurants so much because it's like if you don't like it you can get up and
and leave and go somewhere else and i think that should be true across the whole nostril ecosystem if
you don't like your wallet use another wallet if you don't like your client use another client if you don't
like your relay use another relay yeah and so on and so forth and i think that's the right way to
think about it it's it's it's it's a win-win-win situation yeah absolutely and and the other the
other part of the coin i mean we are of age enough to remember when the internet didn't used to
everything look exactly the same yeah and when you are designing a product that needs to work for
pretty much any single person in the world regardless of their lowest common denominator
you must create by definition a mediocre product yeah you can't say i'm going to create this one
client that has that is very weird but these thousand or ten thousand or one million people
absolutely love it everybody else hates it and thinks it's um no you have to you have to create the
the same thing for every single person and it's it's so uncreative it's so boring it like the street
looks yeah it's boring by default by kind of by definition by definition yeah it's it's the difference
between a shopping mall yeah yeah yeah and it's just the the street yeah that's a good point as well
that's a good point as well and i i i mean we we spoke about these kind of topics a couple of of times
already so for me the same examples i used in the past come to mind but it's like you might be
the best person in the whole fucking town or whatever to create like an awesome chef's knife
and you might not have like the goal is not to compete with the whole world and take over like
the the whole kind of knife market of the world you produce the best chef knife in the area and you have
a lot of customers that really like you and cherish you and you make a profit and that's it and i think
i think we we kind of already have the same um for for for various things online basically it's like
you know like this the one little tool that one guy built a long while ago and your whole
workflow relies on it and you're one of the like i don't know 150 users that the thing has you would pay
a lot of money for this thing to exist in perpetuity and i feel like lots of deaths are they really suck
at monetizing that kind of and they suck at asking for money as well and they suck at i mean most value
for value people suck at at the ask part of it but it's that's why i i try to bully absolutely everyone
into um uh doing something as a lot of the free-to-play games did where it's like if you want
to buy the skin for like ten thousand dollars let them buy the skin for ten thousand dollars if you
love the game you're gonna do it there's lots of people that it doesn't have to make sense for you
it doesn't have to make sense at all but let the people support you in whatever way they they see fit
and also make it appealing and make it easy and so on and so the only person that listened to me so far
it was actually million from primal yeah and that's where the the whole legend and thing came from and
so on and it actually works so so he was very against the idea he was very against it very reluctant
but you know like it's i told him just ship it like what's the worst that can happen you know it's like
start ugly start small and just ship it push it out if if if it if it sucks and if you get blowback and
if it's like no one does it or whatever then just revert it and that's it and i think i think it
also it comes from a point of fear like you said before like a very similar fear of like why do people
not ship the things that they actually built yeah it's just just try it out and do those kind of
things and i think you know like if you've been embedded in in the wider gaming ecosystem like this stuff
works and i'm you know i'm not talking about the darker sides of gamifying everything and putting
gambling into things and so on because that's where it's you know can also go but i think that's
what patreon really showed and also substack really showed because the reason why substack worked is
not because they added paywalls which they did like years later the reason why substack worked is
because you want to support this journalist or whatever and they made it really easy to do that
and also they used the protocol as the delivery mechanism they used email as their as their
delivery and that's i think that's the recipe and most people still kind of don't believe in it
so i'm i'm frustrated about that but but we'll see i remember when a bit of a bit of a story but when i
started climbing um i i was climbing with who's now my wife and she could climb stuff that i couldn't
and she she would tell me dude your shoes are too big like you can't climb with those shoes i was
like no i just suck there's no way and she's like dude let's just go to like the store and and buy new
shoes and and the next day we just went and got new shoes and it was it was actually that simple
it was actually a retarded way and and that's it like but it's so easy to get caught up in your mind
and think you know it's got to be like all this complexity and all this finance financial engineering
and oh i will move this money here and i will like and sometimes it could be just the left side of the
curve approach is the right approach i mean ask people and kind of explain i think proton mail for
example did this well it's like uh which which i like as an example because it's also like the um
email was basically fully captured but we kind of turned the curve i feel like you know and there
was a need in the market and and and some people came and again like proton i think is the group is
a great example there's many others but it's like okay like it's not going to be free period it's
going to be we're going to focus on encryption we're going to focus on privacy but for this to work
like you're going to have to pay it's going to be that there is no other way like either you are the
product and we spy on all your emails and we you know ram advertising down your throat and so on
if you don't want that you're going to have to pay for it and it's the same for you know on the
nostril side for example it's going to be the same for media hosting and so on if you want to do a
youtube on nostril if you're and if you're a creator and your livelihood depends on that and so on
free hosting is kind of out of the question you have to figure out how to yeah because otherwise
otherwise like you know otherwise you are back to selling user data or going down the advertisement
route and all those kind of things and so i i'm going back to dhh i really like the the approach of
base camp and the stuff that they work on with yeah with hey.com they did kind of the same yeah
people were kept on asking oh yeah but how are you going to make money we are going to charge users
users for money and then we'll have money like what do you mean yeah what kind of question is that
but so many people would get hung up on yeah but how are you going to make money yeah well like dude
yeah yeah no absolutely but if you think about it the other way is the weird way it's just been
normalized by advertisement and by google yeah but the way of oh no no it's everything is free we're just
going to mine your data and that that is very complex that is very fucking weird yeah i mean
people we we kind of we kind of know all that but we it feels like we forgot and we have all these
sayings for a reason right like there is no free lunch there literally isn't like if you think there
is then you're being fooled and you're fooling yourself and you don't see the hidden cost and it's
the same it's the same same thing here and so i hope that yeah i i agree i think base camp got a lot of
things right and i think the next hang up is about open source how could i how could i make any money
if i open source the thing and like someone else could steal it from me and uh you know and then
everything is terrible what would be your answer to that i have my own answers uh to to me it's just
the the the a brand uh brings a lot of moat uh like i i see a lot of discussion around the the what
is your motive but the source code is and especially now with like ai and now everybody's
writing code with ai uh the source code itself i don't think is is what's protecting your the company
and the revenue the like i want to buy the stuff that i use from the people that that make it yeah
not from the people that don't really understand it that's from the people that copy it yeah okay
yeah yeah what is your answer yeah i i think i have multiple answers to that particular question
i think what so again i think first of all it's the same issue that it's a position of fear
and i think if someone copies you they only copy the state they copy a snapshot of what is a process
and they cannot copy the process of developing the thing and maintaining the thing and running the
thing and so on and uh so why why is there only like you know we see it in all successful open
source software it's the same pattern the team that is actually building the thing has like the 99 of the
share of the forks in terms of what are the users actually running we see for firefox we see
see for thunderbird we see for wordpress all those kind of things and wordpress is actually a great
example of how you can think about building a business around open source software while the
full thing remaining open source at all times because running a wordpress instance is actually
work and so the service you can provide is um making it easy for paying users to run a wordpress
instance and you develop the software and so it all kind of goes together like this and so on
so i think there's i think i think it's a similar hang-up that the nft people have you're actually
not selling the jpeg you know you can't sell the jpeg it's like the jpeg is worthless it's like you can
you can copy it's not where the value comes from you can you can copy the jpeg at zero marginal cost
and it's true for literally every time it's rendered it has been copied exactly and and so the value
you and i think and that's why why i wanted to you know like continue these conversations and
explore this together because i think we as a society basically um are very confused about
what can you actually sell online and what can't you sell online because people are actually trying
to sell jpegs you know and they're like that's so fucking retarded it's beyond belief and so so
we have to figure out what is actually the thing that can't be copied what is the service that you
can provide and that's the thing you charge money on and so uh i mean we we we discussed this many
times in the past but for example if if if the thing you're you if this thing you're selling in
evolves compute you can sell that in a straightforward manner and the same goes for storage space which
is you know very similar to compute it's actually what are the actually scarce resources and most of
the things that are useful they involve something along those lines of a scarce resource and you can
monetize that the code is like it's that's not where the value is that's not that's not where you're
actually not selling the code like we you did i don't know like in 1996 with winrar or whatever
i feel like we learned all that but yeah i don't know i i again i think it comes from a
position of of being afraid and the position of worry and so on and i think that's not a good position
to be in i think you will if you actually build something of value and you actually have active users
and you have actually people that cherish your product you will be able to get monetary support
for that just because basically in some sense yeah i i i think it's one of the notes that we have of the
things that we want to discuss but i i think there is um such a thing as trying to monetize too early
as well as trying to monetize too late yeah of not thinking enough or of thinking too much about about
monetization um and particularly within within nostr i i i think within nostr everything like the right
approach we still don't know we we are finding it out uh we are exploring it if you try to say oh i'm
going to monetize right now via this way um and it's just copying how it's been done before you are
closing yourself off to new ideas there's an opportunity goes to the fact that you are going
for the uh oh i'll just put some advertisement on these products or or whatever uh i i just don't
think that's that's the um absolutely i i would argue even that we still don't know what steps are for
example yeah i completely agree like they're definitely not like just payments i think they're
also definitely not like just tips i i think they're also not just super likes or what have you and
all those kind of things and i think we can do a lot of stuff just by like we can do so much
exploration just by money seamlessly flowing through the system and that's very very much underexplored
but uh yeah we're so we're we're gonna continually explore it so that's the whole point of the whole
thing i think that might be a nice way to end the the first one i'm getting sunburned already and tired
so i'm like i know we're gonna start going uphill i'm very i'm very close to having a stroke basically
it's it's probably a great place to stop
but how did you think that was it useful maybe i think so for us yeah i think so i i i think it
it can be yeah we'll see we'll see what we'll see we'll see we'll see what we'll see we'll see what
people say we did it is the first episode after all yeah we we didn't talk about starcraft too much
so i apologize yeah yeah i mean obviously asleep right now
but yeah no we i mean i my my goal is to to continue to kind of pick your brain and discuss
these things and and hopefully hopefully going forward with uh um not too much inside the baseball
kind of you know like yeah i i really hope to open up the conversation uh and just bring like you
know random javascript developers in have no idea about bitcoin have no idea about how all this works
but uh maybe are attracted to you know like the making money part of it and are compelled to yeah
maybe as a last thought um um before we we we enter the hellish part um the the reason i think why
people should really care or developers should really care about nostr is that you as a developer
can actually not be rug pulled and that's a very underappreciated um kind of aspect of the whole
system because there's many people we should probably stop doing that there's many there's many people
that developed you know on top of the reddit api on top of the youtube api on top of whatever api
and then things change the company changes the api changes full rug pull like you know
business model change yeah all those kind of things and the the little app or thing or service
that you worked the last 10 years on completely like the foundation is it's a literal rug pull the
rug is pulled under you and and you're done for and i think you know like um if if our intuition is
right on nostr this this should never happen like you can actually build a long lasting literally
multi-generational business on top of nostr and i think that's very very compelling yeah we have
to figure out a ton of things still like we have to figure out like it's still very very imperfect
it's still ugly nostr started ugly we're still in the ugly face but i feel like we're getting out of
the ugly face and i think we we can um yeah have something it really feels to me like it it we have
the chance of building the next iteration of the internet and hopefully not repeat the mistakes of the
past yeah yeah absolutely uh to to me i've been on the on the indie maker community for decades at
this point and they're one hang up every single time it's never about the technique how do i build
the product that is never the question around the indie maker community it's always how do i get users
okay oh how do i do facebook ads because that's always the solution oh it's just run facebook ads
be very active on twitter reply to people it's always always about the distribution of your product
and in the in the indie writers community on fictional writers it's exactly the same problem you go to a
writers conference it's never about honing your craft it's always distribution how do i get distribution
and that is the one thing that nostr completely solves yeah completely you get it for free basically
you get it for free i i launched uh olas what was it like six weeks ago it immediately had users
yeah immediately had users it immediately had content there was immediately a reason to install the app
and to engage with the app yeah because there was something there it wasn't just dummy text or you
know reddit style make it till you fake it till you make it style it was actual content by actual people
yeah um and that is so powerful that is so powerful and is is is you're building on something
that like you said it cannot be why did singa work right they they singa built on top of facebook so
they they had the users but then facebook can fuck them of course immediately you are building
everything based on someone on someone else's land and they can take it away at any point with
enough so you get that is of course is way smaller than facebook and twitter obviously but you get
the same dynamics and i i think that if you if you extrapolate if you do the game theory there is going
to be more and more and we to me one of the things that shocked me um a few times already is companies
that have been at the social network game uh trying to create their own oh yeah trying to create from
which is fucking insanely hard yeah um already coming to nostril yeah and we have yeah a few
it's a very good example it's a very good sign yeah yeah we we have a few examples of companies that
are pre-seed nostril they they pre-date nostril and they are they are coming to nostril yeah to me that is
absolutely fascinating and that gravity only increases i agree i agree i agree awesome awesome fantastic
thanks pablo for suffering with me through those 45 minutes i think that was good so yeah we're gonna
try to do it again and yeah we're gonna ship it as soon as we can so that's the plan it's ugly we know
let's see let's see let's see if the recording actually worked and let's see if we if you can't
understand stuff but well let's hope let's hope that's fine that's fine that's fine no that would be
nice you're in the rocks we'll put everyone to sleep all right take care