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yeah let's just continue and let's do start ugly yeah so it's it was kind of leading into it yeah

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good okay episode one is that's let me see let me see if everything still works

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man that's good i'm having fun already so it's already working it's already working yeah yeah

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we might even get an mp3 out of it okay yeah that's the goal so okay that's officially now episode one

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okay that's correct fantastic good okay so yeah like like we said in the in the awesome teaser

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which one the first one or the second one the second one the first official one um we we wanna

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we landed on some themes basically and um one of them one of them was basically uh start ugly like

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don't be afraid to ship whatever you have in some sense and uh why do you think that's important or

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why do we or maybe maybe a follow-up question to that like why do you think are so many

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so many deaths that we work with have hangups with that

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i mean to me every time i ship something that i know it's incomplete uh alpha or whatever

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it is a very vulnerable space um so a lot of it is just the the insecurity of i know i i could do

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better but that's the thing that you can always do better right so given that that that um that way

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of approaching the problem you will never ship um so you have to be there's no perfection right

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yeah there is no perfection you have to you have to find the comfort in shipping something that you

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know it's imperfect um there there is uh what's the ugliest thing you ever shipped

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oh my lord uh that's a it's a tough question everything

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um i oh yeah no i i know what it is i oh the tunnel with the echo is gonna be interesting

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uh we're gonna make it they have to suffer so so so right now we're walking through a tunnel that is

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dug into the uh into the shore of uh of the island uh so it's gonna be a bit echoey no it's gonna be

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perfect we're gonna fix it in post uh you know so the the the ugliest thing i've shipped i was

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accident i accidentally shipped the honeypot wallet uh because i was testing publishing stuff on on

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substore so it was radically incomplete so there was complete stuff that was like for example if you

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published an event with your so the honeypot wallet is um an ip60 a nutsack wallet uh and if you were

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to publish a token and the publishing fail because you didn't have internet or whatever it didn't save

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it locally or it didn't even retry to save the tokens so it was it's very much uh probably the

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ugliest thing i've shipped but do you regret it or you still think it's the right approach

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i mean get it out and deteriorate i i think it's always the right approach to ship something

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especially if you if you say this is broken in these ways or you know in this super testing is

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great at that yeah oh yeah super testing is the archetype um if you if you if you disclose that okay

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this doesn't work or like this other part is broken or like the onboarding process of of the honeypot

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wallet says you will probably lose all your money uh that you put here uh but uh but the the cool thing

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is that if you ship something that is broken um it's much more likely that you will get bullied into

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fixing it rather than if you just keep it local and say oh once i fix this bad i will aim for

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perfection yeah and you'll get to the point where you will always find something that can be more

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optimized you will always find something that could be nicer that could be yeah more closer to what you

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think it should be um so you can always find an excuse to not ship um so i think not shipping is never

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the approach yeah yeah no i agree i mean uh who was it i think it was david heidenmeyer hansen of all

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people the guy who hated bitcoin starting in 2010 he changed his mind by the way he changed his mind i

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like him a lot but i think it comes from him right happiness is shipping and so yes try to try to bring

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it into a state where it's just like you can ship it as fast as possible like just basically it's the

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super ugliest pre-alpha mvp and just ship it and i think i think to be fair a lot of people in our

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space in the nostril space did that right like i remember the first version of nostril boat which was

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like ugly as fuck and i was like oh my lord what is this but it worked and and they iterated and

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iterated and now it's a you know like uh stuff works and it's everything is way better and all those

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kind of things and um yeah i i was just surprised like we i think also the theme of course starting

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ugly is very meta for this thing you know like it's gonna be uh we're trying to practice what we preach

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but i think it's very important to make it real like it doesn't matter if it's beautiful it doesn't

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matter if it's perfect once it's real that's what it's basically what you said as well it's like you're

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gonna get you're gonna get feedback you're gonna be you know like bullied into fixing things and all

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those kind of things and once you once you push anything out it doesn't matter what it is it

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doesn't matter if it's software or a piece of artwork or a piece of writing or even an idea or

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what have you then it's real then it's in other people's heads then other people know that this

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exists and then it kind of takes a life uh it takes on a life of its own and and i think that's

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that's why it's so important to just ship it out don't try don't try to you know like make it

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perfect and don't it's it kind of it's not about you it's about the idea and it's about the thing

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it's not about you and and the thing is that once the idea or the software whatever it is it's out

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there it can evolve whereas if it's contained just within your computer just within your mind

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the the uh the environment is not as aggressive it cannot evolve as fast yeah it doesn't have as

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many inputs um and i i also think there's something to be said about the fact that

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we are kind of we are our habits and if you get in the habit of not shipping oh absolutely then you

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become a person that doesn't ship it's also you know about the the i don't know if it was a study

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or whatever or i i have no idea but basically they they ran they had two groups of students and i think

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it was like a pottery class or something like that and uh one group of students um got the

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task of you will be graded by your masterpiece and you have like six months to make your masterpiece

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and you can do whatever but at the end one masterpiece has to come out and the other group of students

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was told it doesn't matter what you do you will be graded by the amount of pottery things that you

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produce by the amount of whatever vases you you you push out and the group that did basically shipped

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constantly they actually produced the masterpieces they actually like the the things were so much

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better because it's just about you have to get into the habit of getting stuff out and and just

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doing the next thing and getting that out and so on and so forth so yeah no surprise i i actually

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experienced that very uh very much personally uh in the past few months or in the past year i mean

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you started and abandoned i don't know so many more projects than everyone else combined i think

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no but that's that's a what what so for example what happened with highlighter i think highlighter is

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such a good example of what not to do because with highlighter i started with one idea which was your idea

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uh the uh the um purple text orange highlights uh so i started with that idea and then it morphed

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into this other thing and then it morphed into this other thing and it went through like like six

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different different um uh products so different different value props um and it got to the point

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where i rewrote the code so many times without actually shipping it because it was kind of in prototype

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stage constantly it got to the point where i was i mean everybody that interface with highlighter is

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confused on what the fuck is highlighter um and and even i was completely confused on what is highlighter

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and and it's got to the point where i haven't shipped the the the code of highlighter in like

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three different revisions so like the product that is live now the one that i that i have locally

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completely different thing completely different thing but every time i think oh i need to publish this

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why are you so afraid pablo i well

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it's because it has an awesome domain that's why that's that's the thing right the stakes are very high

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um no but but every time i think about shipping i think i haven't shipped for so long these codeways

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that once i ship it must be a masterpiece it must be fucking perfect yeah and that prevents me from

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shipping it prevents it says me ah you know let's just go and work on you from happiness because

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happiness is shipping happiness is shipping 100 so we are also not perfect yeah no but i i find it

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fascinating that i am the same person when i'm writing code on highlighter and i am the same person

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when i'm writing code on on whatever it might be on on olas on ndk on on whatever it is yeah

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but in in ndk i can cut a release just like that on olas i can ship just like that in highlighter

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i i get like stage fright okay it's a big thing okay i see yeah yeah but but i think that's why

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it's important that we kind of talk about all those things because we when

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a lot of the things that are the right thing to do are actually also hard and i think we know this

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from from the bitcoin world where uh you know like being self-sovereign for example it's actually

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hard but you just you have to kind of it's like getting up in the morning and going for a run

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or getting up in the morning and jumping into a fucking cold plunge or whatever it's like it's

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hard every time you have to find ways to force yourself every time in some sense you know and

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and i mean on the bitcoin side and that's also that's it's part of this experiment right now which

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i hope we will land on some things on an ostracite that are condensed almost like memes like we have

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in the bitcoin space right where it's like everyone kind of knows that shit is hard and it takes a lot

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of responsibility but we landed on you know not your keys not your coins for example and all those

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kind of things and everyone kind of there is a mutual shared understanding of how things work how

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things should work and uh what is the implication of of this what is the implication of not your keys

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not your coins it's the implication is actually you have to sit down and do the things and take the

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responsibility of actually you know taking care of your stuff and all those kind of things and i think

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on on on the nostril side my hope is that we land on a on similar things i care mostly about the

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developer perspective like mostly about what does it mean to build in the nostril ecosystem it means

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shipping something that's super ugly and super imperfect and very weird and very confusing and

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just pushing it out the door and see seeing what happens it's like nostril is the testnet

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i mean everything that happened so far shows this very clearly you know it's like there is no testnet

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there's like nostril is the testnet just push it out and treat it as such

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yeah very much so and i definitely agree i definitely agree that um landing on the on the memes uh on on this

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knowledge um it's super important because it's it's hard and we've seen it even within cyber engineering

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where we see the same people making the same category of mistake um and they don't have the words

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like that's something that that i keep coming back to they don't have the words to explain

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why that approach is wrong they just work on one approach they found find the limitations

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the drawbacks of that approach and then they change to an approach that is different but it's

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within the same category of mistakes and then they have to work for a few more months to reach the

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same conclusion and it's just because they don't have the category of what is the mistake yeah yeah

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yeah i i i but i i mean to be fair it's also i think hard and confusing if you come from a regular

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you know client server architecture kind of everything is a rest api style of development

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and and and kind of find your footing in the nostra way of doing things and there absolutely is a

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way of doing things just like there is a bitcoin way of doing things and i i mean one of the

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comparisons that we often um that we have been drawing over the last couple months is like

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especially for example if you build a bitcoin product once you go down the path of uh of being

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a custodian for someone else's money you're already you know like you're not only with like one foot in

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hell you're already in hell 100 because you're gonna you know like everything that that that it

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will bite you in the it's such a small decision basically in some sense you know like technically

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speaking maybe or or or or it doesn't feel like such a big thing but it's like a make or break

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decision it's it's it's if you if you want to actually don't turn yourself into coinbase like

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if you hold if you hold money for someone else you're gonna be as shitty as coinbase down the line

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there's no escape from that yeah the the success case of when you make that one bad decision

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that one fork in the road the success stage is living a life that you were trying to live the

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opposite of that life right like like i don't think brian armstrong wanted to run a compliance

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department and uh uh a spying uh agency with chain analysis and all these things um yeah you have to

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someone with a very large stick is at your door at all times you have to and it's it's super

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interesting you you used to say a lot and this is a no solutions uh exclusive oh there's gonna because

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you i i never told you this um but um you used to say a lot um that lean alden say i said at some

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stage uh i think it was in oslo or something uh if you're a bitcoin company you don't you don't want

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to hold your customer's case you don't uh you don't want to hold your yeah i love the code yeah

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and i i remember at the time i was working on insect bunker yeah i told you it was a shit idea

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yeah well but i mean yes yes so i had to go through like the whole process of saying oh fuck this is so

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bad yeah this this could get ugly so fast yeah um and then finding the ways of shutting it down

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in a in in the right way of shutting it down which yeah from my perspective shutting it down

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meant yeah breaking it uh not saying that i was not going to work on that because i didn't want

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other people to work on that because i i think it's just it's not a bad idea for me it's just a bad

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idea yeah i agree um but it's a it's a very compelling idea oh you make it so easy for

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everyone oh the onboarding is solved but that's the thing and i think we don't have we don't have good

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um i mean not your keys not your coins is the closest we have but it's like the the you cannot

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abstract this away meaningfully basically it's like if you freedom implies responsibility and you

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you will need to be responsible uh on the bitcoin sign for your keys for example you know like you

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need to be there's other things like there's there's similar examples where they're just again

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like there is no solution like suko's triangle is a good one it's like naming there is no you can't

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have handles in nostril without the trusted third party you can't have like at you know their gg

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whatever it is and it it's it's impossible it's an impossible problem so there literally

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it's a provable unsolvable problem so so there literally are no solutions and the the trade-off we

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landed on with you know like nipple 5 and those kind of things it's like okay we rely on dns as

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the trusted third party basically and again i think that all the verified services i also think

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it's actually a bad idea because it's like it should be your own domain like that that would be the idea

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but but anyway i think and also understanding it as a as a discoverability of how do you get to the

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pubkey in the same way that dns is how do you get to the ip address exactly is it's not that is your

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identity yes is your pubkey is your identity and you arrive to the to the pubkey via the nipple

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file yeah and but i want to come back to the the quote of of linalden uh a bitcoin company doesn't

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want to hold your bitcoin and i think it's it hits the nail on the head and i think that's what makes

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it so different but it doesn't mean that bitcoin companies can't exist and it doesn't mean that

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bitcoin companies can't make money you just have to think about things differently and i mean of course

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you know there's like collaborative custody solutions and there's a ton of financial services that

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actually do not need to hold your money for you there's still lots of things that you can do and

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make money on and i think the reason why i go into detail with all of this on the bitcoin side because

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i think that absolutely the same thing applies to the nostril side absolutely the same thing

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it's it's not necessarily about money but it's like you can you can provide useful services

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without holding your customers hostage yeah and i think that's what we

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have to kind of really nail and and i think that's the the vision and the story we really

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have to nail because it's actually possible and it's not like a pipe dream or whatever it's like

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it's it's you can create something and build something that's super valuable that's super useful

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and you can make money and you can do it without requiring anyone's permission and that's kind of the

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story i want to tell and that's that's and and and i was surprised that a lot of developers

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have a hard time seeing that and also have a hard time believing that and

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to to stick with the theme of you know like starting ugly i think you have to take this leap

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of faith and just go for it and try it out and iterate along the way because i can't tell you yet

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like what is the cookie cutter recipe which we have for web 2.0 for example where it's like you

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raise a bunch of pc money and so on and you do all that yeah exactly and you squeeze them and

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like then everything goes to shit and that's kind of the cycle the web has been in so far

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and i really think we can break the cycle i really think we can break the cycle all the platforms so

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far everything that was great it all went to shit it all and i think it's it is because of the

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monetization thing you know it is because you have to actually capture everyone and squeeze everyone

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it's unavoidable it's unavoidable you just can't escape those incentives but but but but it's not

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unavoidable unavoidable from a business perspective there is great multi-generational businesses there's

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great multi-generational fucking restaurants you know where it's like this restaurant existed for

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like 300 years and it's still like you know the whatever in in like some valley and they still make

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great food and they still make a profit and i think we can do that in cyberspace i really think

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we can do that and that's kind of what i want to you know like hopefully figure out along the way how

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what is the recipe to actually do that and how can you do it without falling into all the dark patterns

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that you know the current iteration of the web brought us yeah to me it's interesting because you can

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you can build everything surrounding a noster but then if you try to to monetize in the in the old

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ways you're actually just building uh a company in the in the legacy system it's just kind of maybe

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like mines.com i think is kind of a if a it's a good example where it was kind of noster for a while but but

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not really um we sadly we have many of those of those examples right now um of companies that are

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kind of noster but in reality is a little bit adjacent kind of or turn like start out well and

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then turn themselves more and more into noster in name only yeah exactly and and i think that comes

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from from fear like if you think that your users are only going to choose you because they don't have a

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fucking choice yeah that like what does that say about you coming back to the restaurant analogy

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it's like you know all the users like all the all all the patrons come in and you just lock the door

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and it's like you have to eat you know i'm only going to let you out if you if your bill is a hundred

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bucks or higher you know like that's the that's kind of that's how the web currently operates it's

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very weird but but i think and and that's the thing i i think we don't yet because noster is so so

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nascent and even bitcoin um it's so it's so young that we don't have good examples because when i

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when i've talked about monetization and noster a few times i get the question of can you point to

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an example of a profitable company that is doing seven eight whatever number of figures it's like

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no bro like we have like 10 users what are you talking about uh hey hey we have a strong circular

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economy of like the same the same 20 people stepping around over and over again what do you

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mean it's like flourishing um but but at the same time bitcoiners you know what you can point to you

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can point to things actually making money and you can point to that in most other areas um like i i

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always i i go to the value for value side and the artist and so on like no one on spotify makes any

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money no artist yeah but if you switch to noster and you put your music in noster you will make

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like 20 bucks a week or something in saps and shit and and it feels like nothing but it's like

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10 000x when you get on spotify literally it's literally like for the smaller artist it's literally

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like 10 000x it's like because they get absolutely nothing and i think on the on the business and kind

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of monetization side i still think it's i kind of agree with you there's way too early to go too deep into

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this um like how could we monetize and so on but the fact of the matter is that we have a lot of paid

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services that actually do make money i'm not saying they're profitable but we have paid relays we have

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you know like the paid media upload thingies and all those kind of things paid verification stuff and

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so on subvertise me the plus of servers yeah yeah yeah i was surprised to get that and and so so money

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is flowing through the system and it's not much yet but you don't i don't think you need a lot of

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um kind of imagination to see where this could go with you know the user base a hundred access a

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thousand access and so on and i mean we have all the room for growth in the world because like going

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from 20 users to like eight billion that's a lot of percentage points you know yeah that's what that

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was kind of where i was going that that bitcoiners into uh leaning to austrian economics and praxeology and first

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principles thinking and all these things and then they tell you oh no you have to show me the point

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to the to the example that works right now no you have to to extrapolate and you have to to imagine

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um and you you have to to me it's all about like self-confidence you have to have the confidence that

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you can create something so valuable that someone will be willing to pay without being forced to pay

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yeah yeah uh and what do you what you say about the the artist and the value for value i i think

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that is such a perfect example of um because the way i see it is we have all this busy money we have

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all these uh just in in the legacy world um of companies that they don't really need to make a profit

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uh you know is the cheap money keeps them alive and and the game they're playing is it's just it's just

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it's just a different game they're not really trying to create utility they're just trying to

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bump numbers right to just yeah just go get the um get to the next round um and the whole point

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is to create a unicorn right yeah the whole point is to go well yeah now a unicorn is nothing like

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unicorn is one bill yeah yeah you you you you want to sell out kind of the whole point is to sell out

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exactly and i think that model just doesn't work anymore it's just that model will

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die both in the legacy and in nothing will never happen um and i think the the the model that i mean

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in some sense it's also very much found to easy money right in some hundred percent yeah yeah exactly

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a lot of it exactly um it it it is only possible because of the of the cheap money yeah um and i just

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don't see but i i see companies trying to create that same model to replicate that same model within

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nostril and i just think that that will never exist i think it will be corners corners yeah i hope so i

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hope so the the the picture i have in my mind i mean the the the kind of the slogan i i i try to

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run with uh but i already got some bush pushback because it's it's like too too childish but it's like

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you can create a lemonade stand in cyberspace and and and the reason why i like it is because you don't

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need unless you live in canada or whatever kind of you know communist state you don't need a license

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and you don't need a permission slip to open up a lemonade stand you could even be like you know

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eight years old and you just get the lemonade stand going and you and and and it's also i think it's a

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it's a nice metaphor because you don't know what this could turn into like if you're really into it

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this could turn into a profitable business and kind of that's that's that's what i want to get out

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there that like there is like probably half a million javascript devs right now that could start

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something that produces a set flow and they don't know about it so i i just want them to know because

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making money is awesome you know like capitalism is awesome and and and we have all the right tools

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now i think to to actually do that and pursue that and i think uh coming back to the restaurant analogy

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like a busy street with a an awesome restaurant on it is beneficial to absolutely everyone it's

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beneficial to the street it's beneficial to the restaurant owner and it's beneficial to the

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competition as well and and i think that's what we have in nostril that's why i like the the busy

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street with lots of restaurants so much because it's like if you don't like it you can get up and

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and leave and go somewhere else and i think that should be true across the whole nostril ecosystem if

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you don't like your wallet use another wallet if you don't like your client use another client if you don't

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like your relay use another relay yeah and so on and so forth and i think that's the right way to

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think about it it's it's it's it's a win-win-win situation yeah absolutely and and the other the

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other part of the coin i mean we are of age enough to remember when the internet didn't used to

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everything look exactly the same yeah and when you are designing a product that needs to work for

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pretty much any single person in the world regardless of their lowest common denominator

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you must create by definition a mediocre product yeah you can't say i'm going to create this one

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client that has that is very weird but these thousand or ten thousand or one million people

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absolutely love it everybody else hates it and thinks it's um no you have to you have to create the

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the same thing for every single person and it's it's so uncreative it's so boring it like the street

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looks yeah it's boring by default by kind of by definition by definition yeah it's it's the difference

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between a shopping mall yeah yeah yeah and it's just the the street yeah that's a good point as well

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that's a good point as well and i i i mean we we spoke about these kind of topics a couple of of times

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already so for me the same examples i used in the past come to mind but it's like you might be

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the best person in the whole fucking town or whatever to create like an awesome chef's knife

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and you might not have like the goal is not to compete with the whole world and take over like

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the the whole kind of knife market of the world you produce the best chef knife in the area and you have

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a lot of customers that really like you and cherish you and you make a profit and that's it and i think

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i think we we kind of already have the same um for for for various things online basically it's like

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you know like this the one little tool that one guy built a long while ago and your whole

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workflow relies on it and you're one of the like i don't know 150 users that the thing has you would pay

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a lot of money for this thing to exist in perpetuity and i feel like lots of deaths are they really suck

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at monetizing that kind of and they suck at asking for money as well and they suck at i mean most value

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for value people suck at at the ask part of it but it's that's why i i try to bully absolutely everyone

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into um uh doing something as a lot of the free-to-play games did where it's like if you want

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to buy the skin for like ten thousand dollars let them buy the skin for ten thousand dollars if you

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love the game you're gonna do it there's lots of people that it doesn't have to make sense for you

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it doesn't have to make sense at all but let the people support you in whatever way they they see fit

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and also make it appealing and make it easy and so on and so the only person that listened to me so far

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it was actually million from primal yeah and that's where the the whole legend and thing came from and

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so on and it actually works so so he was very against the idea he was very against it very reluctant

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but you know like it's i told him just ship it like what's the worst that can happen you know it's like

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start ugly start small and just ship it push it out if if if it if it sucks and if you get blowback and

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if it's like no one does it or whatever then just revert it and that's it and i think i think it

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also it comes from a point of fear like you said before like a very similar fear of like why do people

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not ship the things that they actually built yeah it's just just try it out and do those kind of

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things and i think you know like if you've been embedded in in the wider gaming ecosystem like this stuff

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works and i'm you know i'm not talking about the darker sides of gamifying everything and putting

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gambling into things and so on because that's where it's you know can also go but i think that's

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what patreon really showed and also substack really showed because the reason why substack worked is

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not because they added paywalls which they did like years later the reason why substack worked is

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because you want to support this journalist or whatever and they made it really easy to do that

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and also they used the protocol as the delivery mechanism they used email as their as their

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delivery and that's i think that's the recipe and most people still kind of don't believe in it

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so i'm i'm frustrated about that but but we'll see i remember when a bit of a bit of a story but when i

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started climbing um i i was climbing with who's now my wife and she could climb stuff that i couldn't

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and she she would tell me dude your shoes are too big like you can't climb with those shoes i was

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like no i just suck there's no way and she's like dude let's just go to like the store and and buy new

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shoes and and the next day we just went and got new shoes and it was it was actually that simple

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it was actually a retarded way and and that's it like but it's so easy to get caught up in your mind

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and think you know it's got to be like all this complexity and all this finance financial engineering

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and oh i will move this money here and i will like and sometimes it could be just the left side of the

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curve approach is the right approach i mean ask people and kind of explain i think proton mail for

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example did this well it's like uh which which i like as an example because it's also like the um

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email was basically fully captured but we kind of turned the curve i feel like you know and there

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was a need in the market and and and some people came and again like proton i think is the group is

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a great example there's many others but it's like okay like it's not going to be free period it's

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going to be we're going to focus on encryption we're going to focus on privacy but for this to work

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like you're going to have to pay it's going to be that there is no other way like either you are the

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product and we spy on all your emails and we you know ram advertising down your throat and so on

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if you don't want that you're going to have to pay for it and it's the same for you know on the

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nostril side for example it's going to be the same for media hosting and so on if you want to do a

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youtube on nostril if you're and if you're a creator and your livelihood depends on that and so on

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free hosting is kind of out of the question you have to figure out how to yeah because otherwise

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otherwise like you know otherwise you are back to selling user data or going down the advertisement

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route and all those kind of things and so i i'm going back to dhh i really like the the approach of

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base camp and the stuff that they work on with yeah with hey.com they did kind of the same yeah

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people were kept on asking oh yeah but how are you going to make money we are going to charge users

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users for money and then we'll have money like what do you mean yeah what kind of question is that

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but so many people would get hung up on yeah but how are you going to make money yeah well like dude

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yeah yeah no absolutely but if you think about it the other way is the weird way it's just been

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normalized by advertisement and by google yeah but the way of oh no no it's everything is free we're just

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going to mine your data and that that is very complex that is very fucking weird yeah i mean

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people we we kind of we kind of know all that but we it feels like we forgot and we have all these

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sayings for a reason right like there is no free lunch there literally isn't like if you think there

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is then you're being fooled and you're fooling yourself and you don't see the hidden cost and it's

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the same it's the same same thing here and so i hope that yeah i i agree i think base camp got a lot of

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things right and i think the next hang up is about open source how could i how could i make any money

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if i open source the thing and like someone else could steal it from me and uh you know and then

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everything is terrible what would be your answer to that i have my own answers uh to to me it's just

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the the the a brand uh brings a lot of moat uh like i i see a lot of discussion around the the what

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is your motive but the source code is and especially now with like ai and now everybody's

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writing code with ai uh the source code itself i don't think is is what's protecting your the company

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and the revenue the like i want to buy the stuff that i use from the people that that make it yeah

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not from the people that don't really understand it that's from the people that copy it yeah okay

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yeah yeah what is your answer yeah i i think i have multiple answers to that particular question

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i think what so again i think first of all it's the same issue that it's a position of fear

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and i think if someone copies you they only copy the state they copy a snapshot of what is a process

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and they cannot copy the process of developing the thing and maintaining the thing and running the

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thing and so on and uh so why why is there only like you know we see it in all successful open

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source software it's the same pattern the team that is actually building the thing has like the 99 of the

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share of the forks in terms of what are the users actually running we see for firefox we see

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see for thunderbird we see for wordpress all those kind of things and wordpress is actually a great

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example of how you can think about building a business around open source software while the

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full thing remaining open source at all times because running a wordpress instance is actually

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work and so the service you can provide is um making it easy for paying users to run a wordpress

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instance and you develop the software and so it all kind of goes together like this and so on

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so i think there's i think i think it's a similar hang-up that the nft people have you're actually

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not selling the jpeg you know you can't sell the jpeg it's like the jpeg is worthless it's like you can

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you can copy it's not where the value comes from you can you can copy the jpeg at zero marginal cost

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and it's true for literally every time it's rendered it has been copied exactly and and so the value

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you and i think and that's why why i wanted to you know like continue these conversations and

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explore this together because i think we as a society basically um are very confused about

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what can you actually sell online and what can't you sell online because people are actually trying

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to sell jpegs you know and they're like that's so fucking retarded it's beyond belief and so so

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we have to figure out what is actually the thing that can't be copied what is the service that you

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can provide and that's the thing you charge money on and so uh i mean we we we discussed this many

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times in the past but for example if if if the thing you're you if this thing you're selling in

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evolves compute you can sell that in a straightforward manner and the same goes for storage space which

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is you know very similar to compute it's actually what are the actually scarce resources and most of

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the things that are useful they involve something along those lines of a scarce resource and you can

378
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monetize that the code is like it's that's not where the value is that's not that's not where you're

379
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:44,000
actually not selling the code like we you did i don't know like in 1996 with winrar or whatever

380
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:52,320
i feel like we learned all that but yeah i don't know i i again i think it comes from a

381
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:58,240
position of of being afraid and the position of worry and so on and i think that's not a good position

382
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:05,600
to be in i think you will if you actually build something of value and you actually have active users

383
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:12,160
and you have actually people that cherish your product you will be able to get monetary support

384
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:20,400
for that just because basically in some sense yeah i i i think it's one of the notes that we have of the

385
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:26,720
things that we want to discuss but i i think there is um such a thing as trying to monetize too early

386
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:32,320
as well as trying to monetize too late yeah of not thinking enough or of thinking too much about about

387
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:42,560
monetization um and particularly within within nostr i i i think within nostr everything like the right

388
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:49,920
approach we still don't know we we are finding it out uh we are exploring it if you try to say oh i'm

389
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:58,080
going to monetize right now via this way um and it's just copying how it's been done before you are

390
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:04,240
closing yourself off to new ideas there's an opportunity goes to the fact that you are going

391
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:10,800
for the uh oh i'll just put some advertisement on these products or or whatever uh i i just don't

392
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:16,240
think that's that's the um absolutely i i would argue even that we still don't know what steps are for

393
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:21,440
example yeah i completely agree like they're definitely not like just payments i think they're

394
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,080
also definitely not like just tips i i think they're also not just super likes or what have you and

395
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:32,320
all those kind of things and i think we can do a lot of stuff just by like we can do so much

396
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:38,720
exploration just by money seamlessly flowing through the system and that's very very much underexplored

397
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:46,240
but uh yeah we're so we're we're gonna continually explore it so that's the whole point of the whole

398
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:52,800
thing i think that might be a nice way to end the the first one i'm getting sunburned already and tired

399
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:59,200
so i'm like i know we're gonna start going uphill i'm very i'm very close to having a stroke basically

400
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,600
it's it's probably a great place to stop

401
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:10,640
but how did you think that was it useful maybe i think so for us yeah i think so i i i think it

402
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,160
it can be yeah we'll see we'll see what we'll see we'll see we'll see what we'll see we'll see what

403
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,320
people say we did it is the first episode after all yeah we we didn't talk about starcraft too much

404
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,080
so i apologize yeah yeah i mean obviously asleep right now

405
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,600
but yeah no we i mean i my my goal is to to continue to kind of pick your brain and discuss

406
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:37,440
these things and and hopefully hopefully going forward with uh um not too much inside the baseball

407
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:42,960
kind of you know like yeah i i really hope to open up the conversation uh and just bring like you

408
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:49,360
know random javascript developers in have no idea about bitcoin have no idea about how all this works

409
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:55,760
but uh maybe are attracted to you know like the making money part of it and are compelled to yeah

410
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:05,440
maybe as a last thought um um before we we we enter the hellish part um the the reason i think why

411
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,880
people should really care or developers should really care about nostr is that you as a developer

412
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:17,760
can actually not be rug pulled and that's a very underappreciated um kind of aspect of the whole

413
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:23,200
system because there's many people we should probably stop doing that there's many there's many people

414
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:29,200
that developed you know on top of the reddit api on top of the youtube api on top of whatever api

415
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:34,800
and then things change the company changes the api changes full rug pull like you know

416
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:39,600
business model change yeah all those kind of things and the the little app or thing or service

417
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:45,920
that you worked the last 10 years on completely like the foundation is it's a literal rug pull the

418
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:54,720
rug is pulled under you and and you're done for and i think you know like um if if our intuition is

419
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:59,920
right on nostr this this should never happen like you can actually build a long lasting literally

420
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:04,400
multi-generational business on top of nostr and i think that's very very compelling yeah we have

421
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:09,600
to figure out a ton of things still like we have to figure out like it's still very very imperfect

422
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:14,720
it's still ugly nostr started ugly we're still in the ugly face but i feel like we're getting out of

423
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:22,160
the ugly face and i think we we can um yeah have something it really feels to me like it it we have

424
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:27,120
the chance of building the next iteration of the internet and hopefully not repeat the mistakes of the

425
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:34,800
past yeah yeah absolutely uh to to me i've been on the on the indie maker community for decades at

426
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:41,600
this point and they're one hang up every single time it's never about the technique how do i build

427
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:46,800
the product that is never the question around the indie maker community it's always how do i get users

428
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:53,920
okay oh how do i do facebook ads because that's always the solution oh it's just run facebook ads

429
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:59,760
be very active on twitter reply to people it's always always about the distribution of your product

430
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:06,960
and in the in the indie writers community on fictional writers it's exactly the same problem you go to a

431
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:13,600
writers conference it's never about honing your craft it's always distribution how do i get distribution

432
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:19,280
and that is the one thing that nostr completely solves yeah completely you get it for free basically

433
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:25,840
you get it for free i i launched uh olas what was it like six weeks ago it immediately had users

434
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:31,360
yeah immediately had users it immediately had content there was immediately a reason to install the app

435
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:36,560
and to engage with the app yeah because there was something there it wasn't just dummy text or you

436
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:41,520
know reddit style make it till you fake it till you make it style it was actual content by actual people

437
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:49,120
yeah um and that is so powerful that is so powerful and is is is you're building on something

438
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:55,600
that like you said it cannot be why did singa work right they they singa built on top of facebook so

439
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:02,320
they they had the users but then facebook can fuck them of course immediately you are building

440
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:08,720
everything based on someone on someone else's land and they can take it away at any point with

441
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:16,400
enough so you get that is of course is way smaller than facebook and twitter obviously but you get

442
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:22,480
the same dynamics and i i think that if you if you extrapolate if you do the game theory there is going

443
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:29,840
to be more and more and we to me one of the things that shocked me um a few times already is companies

444
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:37,280
that have been at the social network game uh trying to create their own oh yeah trying to create from

445
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:44,400
which is fucking insanely hard yeah um already coming to nostril yeah and we have yeah a few

446
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:50,080
it's a very good example it's a very good sign yeah yeah we we have a few examples of companies that

447
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:56,480
are pre-seed nostril they they pre-date nostril and they are they are coming to nostril yeah to me that is

448
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:03,440
absolutely fascinating and that gravity only increases i agree i agree i agree awesome awesome fantastic

449
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:11,680
thanks pablo for suffering with me through those 45 minutes i think that was good so yeah we're gonna

450
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:17,920
try to do it again and yeah we're gonna ship it as soon as we can so that's the plan it's ugly we know

451
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,320
let's see let's see let's see if the recording actually worked and let's see if we if you can't

452
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:29,920
understand stuff but well let's hope let's hope that's fine that's fine that's fine no that would be

453
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:37,360
nice you're in the rocks we'll put everyone to sleep all right take care