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okay let's do this we're live I'll have to put this away because it's the

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connector is broken and if I have it in my in my what's this called now in my

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pocket my pocket my pen pocket now my brain is broken in another way we just

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talked to German for better better part of an hour and now we have to switch

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to English I'll keep it like this that's good enough hopefully all right let's

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do this okay so what do you want to talk about first I already told you I want

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to talk about the Nostr Office okay I want to talk about the maker space

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yeah and I want to talk about Just Works all right so your your choice

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Nostr Office okay let's go what is it how did it come to be who are you my

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name is Thomas I joined the SEC-04 and yeah you're in veteran huh you're a

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sovereign engineering veteran yeah no maybe yeah but at that time I was very

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new to Nostr I was a developer early on but not in the Nostr space and then I

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realized that Madeira was very nice island and I was considering getting an

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office space here also for my fiat job working remotely and then I found

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that Nostr Office and so that's a perfect place but I didn't name it like

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Nostr Office so people just said let's go to the Nostr Office and then just

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came a name the name the name evolved exactly I'm heading another name those are the

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best names such as people choose out of their own free will exactly and so if I

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may ask you just said you you were a developer very early on how early are we

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talking when they just start coding when I was 10 10 wow yeah was basic on a

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C64 nice nice then when I was 12 I learned C and C++ there we go and you didn't

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end up as a bit more developer with that with that knowledge no no I found

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bit going too late too late to contribute and I always say yeah you can code

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lots yeah yeah no I don't feel like it even up anymore the same same for me same

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for me now things are very very different and what's so what did you work on

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what's your what's your fiat job if I may ask I did a

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queuing and deployment solution for managing waiting times so I hate to stand in the line at a

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university like when you do it in my team that's yours so you like you you will like

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Portugal because everything is like a single queue system yeah exactly but we did like

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multi queue system and multi appointment systems yeah like to solve waiting times and I found

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also on my era there are a lot of queuing systems everywhere like the batch everywhere pharmacy

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yeah everything everything is accused exactly and that was also my first project as SC I did

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the NOSDAQ the coffee queue so you could get in line for the next coffee oh shit I don't even

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remember but to be fair we're looking at like 800 plus projects or so on this time and engineering

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side so I don't remember everything all right fascinating that's like a mostly mathematical problem

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yeah it is mathematical and game theoretical problem yeah it is wow

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but solving the problem is not not not the issue it's more like if you have a good solution it

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needs to have a good UI unique and you need to sell it right and I think it's a sales problem

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exactly yeah it's a sales problem yeah I see and what brought you to the Nostr world how come you

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came to Sovereign Engineering the first time I was on Nostr because I'm interested in new technologies

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like I installed also my first Bitcoin client was very early on but I didn't use it and the same

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was for Nostr I installed the first Nostr client but I didn't renew it what it is so it took me like

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two years then was Bitcoin material here Bitcoin announced their conference yeah conference

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and then I also read about sovereign engineering cohort but I saw like it's like six weeks in

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the in the woods was camping it was eight weeks actually yeah I thought it's like

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camping okay okay and I saw now I can't apply so I need to have a show like every second day at

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least so we didn't good we didn't we didn't do the best job explaining it yeah but the second

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or third time I thought maybe it's interesting to apply and then I did it like last year

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any regrets no no no I think it's a it's the best experience I ever had with developers and

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yeah coming together and thinking about new technologies awesome awesome

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awesome so it's very interesting awesome yeah I mean that's the whole point let's get the best

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people together that are actually interested in various tech stacks and so on should we should we

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maybe go like let's go to the light tower and then to the end then turn around and then we hit

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the the other park I think that should the sea is calm today it's like the sound quality is going

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to be you know like perfect it's going to be impeccable yeah no as I was saying like the whole

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point is invite the best people get the best people here you know hopefully select the right

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people that are very enthusiastic and very interested in this kind of weird cryptographic world

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that we are exploring and yeah kind of you know lock everyone in a room for a couple of weeks

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and see what comes out so and that's still that's still the whole philosophy and I think it works

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oh it's absolutely working it's absolutely working it's it's it's messy and very

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strenuous and doesn't work perfectly you know of course but I mean just the projects that came out

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of it as long as this keeps happening I'll continue to do it like as long as awesome projects like

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I mean just just look at the whole catalog you know like the the highlights for me definitely are

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like Nutzaps blossom um TollGate FIPS like the Wikifreedia there's I mean then I'm probably

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I'm probably forgetting like half of them you know totem you always have to mention totem exactly

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our TollGate that's also like a TollGate was one good example where they started with router

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and then they're involved okay we don't need to have an DNS name we want to have like a new IP

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stack with no DNS and so and then no DNS was involved into FIPS exactly and then it worked to

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FIPS and now you have a completely new idea of a protocol yeah including authenticity and

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cryptography and everything so yeah Nostr-based networking yeah that that

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actually works it works really well and you know has certain properties yeah that are just

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very interesting I mean I talked about this with Zaza as well that was one of the coolest things

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to hear that he built an app for archipelago like a companion app to connect to the node and he

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just basically integrated FIPS and he was like an everything just worked like 10x better as it

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did before yeah it's faster it's like you don't have to do any hole punching you don't have to do

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any net stuff and so on it's just yeah it's fantastic yeah it just works that's a great segue now

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we have to talk about Just Works so what is Just Works can you give me the elevator pitch for

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Just Works okay the elevator pitch is convert your old social media profile into an nsite

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an unruggable profile on Nostr that was a basic idea we had a last SEC we had a week with Sandwich

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as a captain and yet a very strict goal to say we need to build a product within a week

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and it should be super simple super easy it should just work and then I think Jeff

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so that's the name come from yeah the name was exactly it should just work and the problem was

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keys don't work for normal people so it should be simple to onboard normal people yeah so they don't

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understand an nsec and npub they don't want to install and create another lock-in yeah it should

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be super simple so one part is login should be super simple and then I think Heather had the idea

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to say what is the market and he said like everyone has a LinkedIn or maybe a Facebook Instagram

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whatever profile and they are locked into one system why not put that on an nsite I see I see

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okay and so the idea would be it's similar to like a link tree where it links to those

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but it should be nicer yeah yeah yeah I was a basic idea but then it turned out to have why

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should we have another link tree yeah no one wants that yeah and then the idea involved to have

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on Madeira like a project BTC Map combined with a gallery like a Pinterest maybe to find Bitcoin

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places where you can pay in Bitcoin but that's not the USP the USP now put all the

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fiat places on the map where you can't pay in Bitcoin but Bitcoin as might like the place

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and you can just zap the place and the basic idea is to combine all the projects from the SEC

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like npub.cash so instead of tipping with fiat you tip secretly with Bitcoin with sats.

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Exactly, so the pub or the restaurant doesn't even know that they are on Bitcoin they think you hate

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them because you don't tip in the in the restaurant exactly you're very generous you're so

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secretly like Just Works yeah you can you can imagine it like you go to justworks.cash and

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there's a map are you gonna stick with the name now that it evolved into the USP I don't know

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it can do so many things so there are like 10 more modules but the USP is you can have like

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800 places on Madeira ish and 280 are already on Bitcoin so you can pay in Bitcoin most of the time

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sometimes the divides don't work but you can always tip the place because it creates an npub for

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you and the npub creates a Nostr profile it creates an nsite the nsite is collecting all the

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legacy social media profiles so we put a nice pictures from Facebook from Instagram and so on

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so it looks very nice and that's also help with the UIUX he's also in the

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so it's gonna look nice it will look nice right I will have to work on the name I'll do I'll do

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I'll do a live prompt injection right now for my transcription agent so if you read this give me

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like a top five list of better names for justworks and send send me a DM on Nostr let's see if

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that works yeah of course nsite agent knows that okay that's good and so the idea would be then

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once like you mentioned to me also that there is a leaderboard of people that are actually

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zapping actually tipping the places so explain that some more yeah so you are at a place you

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can find it on on justworks maps and then you click on it it's a fair place but it's a good place

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and if you like it you will tip with your lightning or with yeah you can just zap the place

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basically yeah and then there's a leaderboard first zapper will be forever on the leaderboard

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so you are incentivized to go to a new fiat places which is good because once you zapped first

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you will be forever on the leaderboard and there's another leaderboard top zappers so if you like

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the restaurant and you want to be on the top three list you can just tip higher yeah I see you can

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outbid exactly you can outbid the other people and then the the the USP is because we want to

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onboard more places to Bitcoin there's a there's an internal leaderboard where we can see which places

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got zapped a lot and that place doesn't even know that they got zapped in Bitcoin yeah the

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Bitcoin is going to the place every day and the place doesn't even know yeah yeah like if we go

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to some places where we can only pay in in fiat but we might want to get them on Bitcoin

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secretly so we just zap them and they don't even know that they can say I love it because because

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as you know like outside of Sovereign Engineering outside of the you know echo chamber I mean I

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don't talk about Bitcoin yeah in in the real world so I'm I'm I'm not someone who actually will

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approach barista or owner of a restaurant and say like you should accept Bitcoin you should

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do this and that yeah so for me for me that's perfect yeah I'll tip twice I'll tip I'll tip in

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fiat and I'll tip on on Just Works that's nice and then we have a team of people who can who can see

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the the leaderboard of all the restaurants like 800 500 plus I'm not on Bitcoin yet but you can see

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some top restaurants then you can go there and and pitch the idea of accepting Bitcoin yeah and

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they can go there with cash in hand yeah exactly they did you know you already got like 250 bucks

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yeah, zapped in Bitcoin I think that's that's a more easier approach to on-board a restaurant to

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Bitcoin because if you go there and they don't know about Bitcoin you don't have anything yeah but

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you already have customers who like the restaurant who have Bitcoin they tip the Bitcoin it's like

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the gap to accept Bitcoin is the friction is lower so to to play devil's advocate for just a minute

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and because I'm sure like if if people hear that the question will be okay who is gonna hold the

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funds how is that gonna work isn't that all just a scam where people are sending Bitcoin to

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Just Works and Just Works just runs away with the money exactly like how does all that work we

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can run away with money because we are to generate all the sites and pages automatically but the idea

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is that every restaurant can create their own page on justworks.cash you generate your own

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npub nsec and we have also a solution as I mentioned it should be super easy to generate

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your own nsec npub you don't even know that you generate an nsec if you don't want you can

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for sure if you are like a must-expert go with ambiance on but you can just put your email in

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password and that will encrypt yeah yeah I mean that's the same idea that Pablo had with the

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nsec bunker right like that was that yeah I mentioned it after record already I'm gonna

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mention it again looking to what Fiatjaf just recently built with pomegranate yeah pomegranate

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is his attempt to get the normies in basically as far as I understand it I haven't played around with

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it yet but it's basically it's like you know one click sign up with google sign up forever and this

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is safe to answer on your own exactly yeah basically that's basically good yeah that's perfect and it's

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even more sophisticated than that I think I think there's even some multisig FROST wizardry involved

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or something like that I don't know I mean it's it's all my to-do list to look into it but I didn't

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manage it yeah if we integrate that and even our current solution is if you as the store generate

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your own login you hold the funds because you hold the nsec and the lightning invoice goes

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to npub.cash so technically you hold a NIP-60 wallet on Nostr with ecash and you can redeem it

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with having your nsec all right it's all coming together it's all coming together yeah so it's

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advanced advanced wizardry is going on under the hood yeah exactly but in in the end it should

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just work I remember when I first heard about it or like um I think while you were working on this

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we had a conversation about the abysmal payment experience that Bitcoin still has kind of even

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though things are way better than it used to be and so yeah but I um I mentioned to you you know

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like I used to live in Croatia and there it was perfect because it was just I knew the guy in the

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coffee place and so on and I was there every day and I knew his lightning address and I could just

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leave cash on the table and walk out basically you know like there was no interaction with the

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payment terminal there was no like you know going to the counter and waiting in the line and so on it

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was just like I knew exactly like my coffee and my croissant or whatever was you know like

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whatever five bucks and I would just you know send the five bucks to his lightning address

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and get up and leave yeah and he would see it and you know he of course you know over time he got

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to know me and so on and that's how we would do things and so and that's the payment experience I

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want to have in Madeira basically everywhere and right now it's just not the case like right now

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um just checking the time right now right now the payment experience depending on where you go

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like sometimes it's a bit better sometimes it's a bit worse but right now there is many many places

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where you can be paying Bitcoin in theory yeah and you guys are charged exactly and so if people

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are actually frequently paying in Bitcoin there are some places where there is at least one Bitcoin

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or every day basically yeah so that works very well and there's some other places where it's just

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like they they have the the terminals right like the special orange colored terminals that would

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also support NFC I think right yeah no one uses that one at least they they have their own thing

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or they have a separate phone then has like Swiss Bitcoin Pay on it or something or some wallet

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um and if there's like if the frequency is like one Bitcoin every six months then this thing

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is not like first of all they have to find the thing it's like in a separate drawer somewhere

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or covered in dust obviously completely out of battery

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it's not that I want to help you and they charge it or not 10 minutes or not switched on or whatever

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you know like those are the the different possibilities but even if it switched off like

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switching it on takes a minute or so and like there's 15 people behind you waiting in line it's

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very awkward it's very uncomfortable and yeah we already established that yeah you hate you hate

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you hate waiting in line I hate making other people uncomfortable and it's just it's just kind of

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I feel like we have the technology to actually fix this problem and do it in a way

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way bad way we don't need sophisticated payment terminals all those kind of things like just

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give me a QR code on the wall yeah I don't care it's just like give me something that doesn't change

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that I can use and I'm just gonna send the exact amount that that's it yeah and that's also an

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idea we integrated in Just Works so we have one more module would be JustPay you have to

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and then you're I like the JustPay name yeah that's good I think it was your name

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no it wasn't it actually wasn't it actually wasn't yeah like from technology you don't want to

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have a BOLT 11 you want to have one you should be within the within the shop and not go

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yeah fairing around I mean that's the island your island issue exactly and that's also like if

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you want to make it a technically perfect you always have a problem with the UI experience

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I'm not even sure if it should be a BOLT 12 like give me your opinion on that because

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because like shouldn't it be just an npub

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yeah I want to pay

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and you're at

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in BOLT 12 you can set even this island to the payment yeah I wrote a

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when I wrote about the Lightning Prisms like I had this Lightning Prisms

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to people it was based on lighting at that at that point in time I already wrote I remember

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we never had this during a recording like a dog's just straight up shitting in front of us

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there's always there's always good enough maybe it's a shit idea yeah like that's to sign from the

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universe that it's a shit idea no but I think it's actually on the Lightning Prisms side I realized

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back then already that Lightning addresses are not the right identifier are not the right level

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of abstraction for payment targets because it has to be an npub and I wrote this actually in the

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article like the the right mechanism and then pop yeah because I want to either pay the

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person or I want to pay the place what I identify as a place it's an npub yeah and you can later

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change it and sign it it works indirectly does it because you have npub cash your npub at

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great npub.cash is your is your target and you as an owner

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no stop

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lightning address and if you if you change it to the light address that's how it then JustPay

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will work JustPay won't work for and you own the keys for the lightning infrastructure and then

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you can set a wall of a torsion why would JustPay not work for your cash it would work but we

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don't want to store the funds for JustPay customers so we need to... It's a business decision,

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not a technical one. You're okay with holding the funds?

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and we don't really hold it because in theory yes it's like we we once there's this

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threshold of maybe 25 bucks we go there and yeah yeah I see okay but but you don't want to hold

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any of the funds that are actually put it like in life production basically

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the forecast I think it's not allowed to hold money for someone else and then you need a banking

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you need a banking license you wouldn't need a bank

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maybe in Madara you would still need a banking license because we're still in the European Union

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there is even more paper work than Germany it's terrible yeah it's all like it's it's easy here

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the cities they really love bureaucracy yeah for some reason yeah it's interesting how many

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places you have to go when you yeah how many forms you have to fill out for anything

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or anything to get anything done yeah well that's that will eventually fix itself as well

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okay I think you know all all top heavy systems eventually break and crumble

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so back to the Just Works idea tipping is just working without the places knowing about Bitcoin

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you can just tip then we go there then the easiest way would be they just install a

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Volosatoshi just tip just tip it's just a great name it's a great name but it's very

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sexual so you'll you'll you'll you'll get just a tip very very quickly okay so yeah

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anyway sorry we'll see we'll see what kind of the am I good yeah

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and then the next idea would be if the restaurant understands that a lot of Bitcoin has

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will come and pay they want to integrate with their PUS system yeah and then we have a problem

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because I don't really agree with any PUS system yeah I hope Jack Dorsi or Jack Man has

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listening to the podcast here of course yeah yeah friend of the show perfect maybe they are

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interested in onboarding their systems to the island yeah I mean that will come in time I mean

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square square let's switch the flip flip the switch and and just like you know every square

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merchant can accept Bitcoin which is absolutely fantastic so blows my mind that they managed to make

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this happen like that that must have been such a monumental task under the hood and yeah strike

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should be available in portable yeah and then I have a last strike because you also have like an

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I've been bank account yeah so it's easier for the for the people to convert Bitcoin and and

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yeah now that feels like a normal bank account that will all that will all be figured out it's just

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like but I really like the you know it's kind of it's baby steps all the way you know like

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solving all these little problems step by step and one day then you don't have to think about it

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anymore maybe let's go to the left here then it's it's a little bit more quiet and like to just

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to pick one example of something that's solved now that I don't have to think about anymore is like

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App Store submissions and those kind of things we now have Zapstore yeah that problem is solved

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I can actually publish apps to Nostr anyone can install them signed with my key with Web of Trust

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around that it works extremely well and and we don't have to think about that anymore basically

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you just mentioned like the new client you vibe code on a week back server yeah two days

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tell me about it yeah yeah I was just the the thing that triggered it was

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trading popups into my face yeah because I have multiple accounts on in in my Amethyst installation

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and it always like there's so many popups now that I just feel like I'm looking at a website

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from from from the 90s where it's just like you have to sign into this relay always sign in

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and so on and I've like 20 accounts in my Amethyst because I I just run many accounts it's like

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the Bitcoin resources account for every little project I have I have a dedicated amp up it's all

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in there and and so that had me annoyed enough I'm gonna write my own client and I'm kind of

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I need to figure out what is possible right now with like frontier models and like proper

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agent harnesses and so on because I need to understand these things because I obviously also want to

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yeah know what's possible like it's it's also I mentioned it's when I talked with Jesus as well

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like also from the OpenSats perspective it's like what is something that still needs funding

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and what is something that's so easy to do that like if you would fund it it's basically

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scam because like you can vibe it on the weekend you know and so the goal I set for myself is like

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can I build a Nostr client and an Android native Nostr client that I would use as a daily driver

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client in in 48 hours on a weekend literally on a weekend Saturday Sunday okay and caveat

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voice prompts only okay no typing yeah and my wife is not allowed to know that I'm doing it so

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so I spend a normal weekend with my family with the wife with the kids I'm fully there I'm fully

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present we're out like swimming snorkeling whatever doing stuff nice and I just sneak away from time

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to time I just use my phone is normal I'm gonna you know like I'm gonna type sometimes a little bit

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but just two times yeah just like you know release or whatever like fix it or whatever and the rest

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is just voice prompts me talking into my phone and so my development workflow was I was building an

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MVP like one one long voice prompt two minute voice prompt or so building MVP install it on my

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phone directly because I I told it in the MVP voice prompt like I want to have this from

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Wisp I want to have this from you know this stuff does amethyst as well this stuff Wisp

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as well this is how I want you know the UI UX to look and feel and blah blah blah which is

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rambling for two minutes and you know like building MVP publish it directly to Zapstore no need for

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testing no need for emulators nothing I'm gonna test it on my phone and we're gonna iterate from

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there nice and that's what we did and that's literally how I talk to the agents just like I'm

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talking now and yeah then I used it for like 20 seconds and I saw immediately what needs to be

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fixed and what is still lacking and what is weird and another voice prompt goes out like 20 second

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voice prompt that's about between 10 and 20 seconds usually my voice prompt and it's just like okay

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I you know I refreshed the feed and like it felt very laggy the top bar should hide when I scroll

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down and you know like the symbol that we have for the reactions I don't like it like change that

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and so on and just send it and create another release I'm gonna test it again there was last

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weekend yeah it was it was this weekend just a couple years ago and I was the first user right

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and I also tested you were the first user that I saw there's other users so you you were the

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first you did the first user test because I had like an issue with locking in locking

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yeah you didn't find the login button exactly which is fair now there is a different login

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button yeah you just did it in a 10 second problem yeah 20 20 it was exactly 20 second

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unfortunately not exactly 20 second voice prompt and I just literally said a friend of mine

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just tried yet for the first time and he was confused about the login button he said it looks

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like a logout button so we need a better icon for it yeah and like I mean I also told it the

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design philosophy the design philosophy is no text in the UI only symbols because I want to

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Japanese people to be able to use it and I don't want to be in charge of like translating it in

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25 different languages makes sense I wouldn't be in charge like the agent would be in charge but

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still it's way easier it's way it's way easier to work within constraints and one constraint I

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said for myself is this one yeah like no no text in the UI so it works in every language basically

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and yeah I mean it automatically adds proof of work to every node it does images and videos

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really well it uses VLC video line player style controls video line player is the best

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mobile video play best video player ever exactly how do you integrate it all the UI you

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experience everything they learned over the last 30 years I can just tell my clanker full screen

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videos same controls as in VLC let's go and and it just it's all built it's all out and I I've

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been using it as my daily driver ever since and I was done in less than 48 hours 36 hours was

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after where I was like okay now the posting works the reply works everything I wanted to have in

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their works and most of all the connect one tap zapping works everything works still needs

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polishing of course and so on but I was done in less than 48 hours and of course it's not

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comparable to amethyst it's not comparable to whisper that's not my point my point is

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that development is completely effortless now basically and you don't need to write any lines

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of code anymore yeah yeah anyway that was a long rant so that's better it's your perfect

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master clan so everyone can build his own yeah and you ask a great question just when we had

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coffee before it's like okay what's the future of software development now like what's

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what does it mean for software development and my answer is kind of like I don't know the thing

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that I did is was like I held up a straw you know and I was I was making the comparison is like

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like like you know like McDonald's for example you get cutlery that you can throw away yeah

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that's what we have now because it's free to produce basically and and that's what we have for

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software now it's free to produce so we will absolutely have throw away software I think we

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already do and but what what makes the software well different from the physical world is like

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it's similar to like a 3d printer now where you can just hyper-specialize your thing exactly

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as you as you would like it yeah imagine we would have a maker space with 3d printers

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that work I mean yeah that's that's where it's that's perfect segue you're you're you're professional

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when you kind of do that but that's where it's going and that's where with you see the people

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on Nostr as well like um vibe coding or like prompting 3d models yeah and that works really well

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so tell me everything tell me all about the maker space that you're you're building in Madeira

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Madeira Makerspace by the way Madeira Makerspace that's a great name that's a great name so

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it's not it's not my project it's a project from sandwich and Jesus I believe yeah yeah I talk

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to I talk with Jesus about it a little bit yeah yeah say once we have like a 3d printer and other

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things like Raspberry Pis and then all the hardware stuff to connect 3d printing and other stuff

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exactly that's the tagline Madeira Makerspace and I think it was also with totem so it's like

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very hardware based yeah you need to not only develop the software and the firmware you also need

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to to put some cables on to hardware so I'm not a hardware guy so I don't know I don't know how

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the cables work let's go down here again I don't know that's red and blue cable so I think black cable

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that's good that's good and so the maker space is going to be part of the Nostr Office is that right

334
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exactly I think they introduced the idea to one guy from Noteignan yeah exactly yeah

335
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Jan Paul right yeah actually if this is handled yeah and they wanted to contribute somehow to

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the SEC and then they thought okay maybe we can put someone or two or three million Satoshi's

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to the project and they did it and announced it and then other people stepped up and there was

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like a Bitcoin address and other people also put money on it so proper proper crowdfunding

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exactly and now I think there's 13 million so one three awesome Satoshi's yeah shout out shout out

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to Noteignal and Jan Paul and thanks for that and also speaking of Noteignal there just in the

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process of vibe coding their own I'm not even sure if vibe coding is the right term anymore yeah

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yeah energetic engineering they're in the process of energetically engineering their own podcast

343
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player and podcast client yeah it's called hop like hop hop in German yeah and it stands for

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it's an acronym I forgot but it's actually a nice acronym I yeah but I would have to look it up

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and it's podcasting 2.0 native value for value native nice yeah really nice good good people behind

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it good team behind it yeah I know there were also the first podcasts with value for value in Germany

347
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yeah yeah no after I know 20 maybe I talk to the wrong guy he knows but they were the second they

348
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were the second one at least no they were super early and they're they're great people yeah okay

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back as a maker space yeah go ahead so so now there is a room in the Nostr Office it's not

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occupied it's like a small 1.5 meter wide and then 10 meters and that space is not occupied so

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the idea is to put there some hardware some 3D printers so as you see participants can also

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build some hardware there awesome so we'll have a setup very soon where you can just talk to an

353
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agent it's like I need a new cup holder exactly those are the dimensions printed design something nice

354
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then you can go down and get it yeah make something nice yeah and maybe that's also a value in the

355
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future software is easy to build but hardware still is somehow hard to prove because you need the

356
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money to buy it exactly you need to the material is to print it yeah Adams and molecules are

357
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exactly cars Adams and molecules in the right configuration are more scars than bits at the same

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with Bitcoin so to produce a lot of zeros in front of a hash yeah you need energy yeah that's

359
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something that we briefly touched on before as well before when we when we had coffee the kind of

360
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how weird everything is right now and how like one of the value propositions obviously

361
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of Bitcoin is you can't make more of it but it's also you can prove that it's real in cyberspace

362
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like it's a real thing in cyberspace and we don't have many many we don't have a lot of real

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things in cyberspace right now like if you look at the media landscape and just like you know

364
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what's going on currently also with just defects image generation video generation everything

365
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it's very hard to figure out what's real and what isn't and you mentioned that in passing that like

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that that this is such a big value proposition of Nostr and such a cool feature that everything

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is cryptographically signed yeah right and you can actually be sure about things basically exactly

368
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and yeah I feel this will come to the forefront more and more as stuff will get just wacky and

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wacky and you know more AI generated and everything I mean we're we're in it you know like we're

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in we generate all stuff with it so we can complete no that also but it's still it's still kind of

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I don't know it's like I think we are in the process of figuring all that out because we are

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at the forefront and if I look at my Nostr feed for example there's very little AI generated

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stuff because I unfollow people that do a generated stuff so in my web of trust the cryptographically

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signed notes that I see are actually human made with a very high guarantee like because I know

375
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the people I know they actually wrote this and so on and and and and I've been saying for a very

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long time like the combination of proof of work and web of trust like POW plus WOT solves most of

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the things yeah I'm still convinced of that and I feel like we are heading into a territory where

378
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this is actually the case like again like back to the point you just made with the the zeros

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producing enough zeros and so on we have it on the Nostr side now as well that most notes that I

380
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care about most stuff that I care about that's on the Nostr side actually has proof of work attached

381
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to it and also has zaps attached to it and so and so again and and isn't part of my web of trust

382
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you know so that's a reputation part yeah yeah trust the proof of work so you can't spend the

383
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network easily yeah yeah yeah it's a spam prevention mechanism I mean that's also why it's in

384
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Bitcoin like that's the whole point yeah and yeah spammy edition from Adam back hashtag I think

385
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:25,560
yeah PCB was also good idea but both didn't really work for spam and cryptographic email yeah

386
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not mainstream it's and you touched on this before when talking about Just Works like keystone

387
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work for regular people yeah and this is still this is still a very hard nut to crack it's

388
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depending on depending on the day depending on my mood I will agree with that statement and I

389
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will also disagree with this statement on on on on another day because in terms of

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00:38:52,760 --> 00:39:02,760
let's stick with Bitcoin for a second because people learn to drive for example you know like

391
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:10,120
that's a big Toyota like it's a dangerous machine it's very heavy you can run it into a crowd you

392
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:17,640
can do mayhem with it and regular people learn how to drive easily yeah most people can drive you

393
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,800
know like most people are smart enough and able enough to learn how to drive so as a society we

394
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:27,240
figured out how to set up society in a way so that people can drive another comparison I made

395
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:33,320
previously is also people also know how to read reading is really really hard reading and writing is

396
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,920
way harder than putting quad words on on a piece of paper and storing it somewhere and we were

397
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:47,160
able to reconfigure society completely now the sound appears of course but like for driving cars

398
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:55,720
it's a decade switching from noises to cars right it's a new kind of a new kind of new kind of

399
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:02,520
at least it's not a leaf blower a leaf blower is our invoice okay but but you know what I'm trying

400
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:08,120
to say right it's like holding keys is so hard and people don't know how to do it they mess it up

401
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,640
they shoot themselves in the foot again like shooting yourself in the foot people know how to handle

402
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:16,520
guns people can learn how to handle guns people can learn how to store guns securely how to handle them

403
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,120
security how to have them in a household even when kids are around all those kind of things you know

404
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:25,080
like we we figured all this stuff out it's way way harder than taking care of a cryptographic key

405
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,560
it's just taking care of a cryptographic key is very alien because it's like if I have perfect

406
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:34,200
photographic memory or like a glasses with a camera or something I look at your 12 words your

407
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,840
Bitcoin is my Bitcoin you know like it's it's an alien concept but it's not I don't think it's

408
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:46,440
hard to do per se like recon reconfiguring society so that everyone can read is way harder

409
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:51,080
true way harder but there's a value in reading because there are books you want to read are you

410
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:59,000
saying there is no value in holding Bitcoin I see a big value now so I think the society doesn't

411
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:05,400
see the value yet so it takes decades to understand the value and then also there is no there is no

412
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:10,600
there is no immediate payoff that's actually can you drive a tank me yeah I probably could

413
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:16,520
give me a tank yeah I don't need a tank I don't need a private tank yeah very useful to drive

414
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,960
tanks people will figure out how to drive tanks yeah and then it takes decades and everyone can

415
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,680
drive a tank yeah yeah and I think holding your own keys on Bitcoin if you need to do it you will

416
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:29,320
figure out yeah I mean and we see this we see this over and over again in in countries that go

417
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,240
through a hyper inflationary period it's all like if you really or also people that get the bank

418
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:37,320
all the time they figure it out easily it's not it's not that hard so that's kind of my point

419
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,600
it is true that regular people can't hold cryptographic key material easily it is true

420
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:48,840
but it's also again like necessities the amount of fall invention right so people that have to

421
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:54,520
figure it out will figure it out yeah right yeah and like non people if they're lazy they sign up

422
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:59,960
whatever Facebook or Instagram yeah it's so easy to create an account and if you have a perfect

423
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:04,520
but it also isn't it also isn't because now you need to create an email you don't know where you

424
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:09,880
need to KYC fully basically okay you need to fully KYC okay it's it's not that is creating creating

425
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:15,080
an unpack is way easy yeah but I did say you can actually you can actually one click it okay no I'm

426
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:20,520
I'm just I know what you're trying to say I'm just trying to again I'm I'm today's the day where I'm

427
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:25,400
on the other side yeah I'm not that grumpy today I'm usually grumpy but today I have a good day today

428
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:35,720
so so it's actually um yeah I'm again I'm not sure I'm not sure if I I don't know it's also

429
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:41,400
something that can be solved I I have to look into via Jeff's thing the pomegranate because I think

430
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:48,120
the the cool thing about cryptographic keys you can't solve the platform problem you can't solve it

431
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:54,760
you run the platform you give people an account so an account is always issued yeah an account is

432
00:42:54,760 --> 00:43:00,120
always issued an account is always given to you you as the platform need to be able to ban people

433
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:05,880
from your platform to delete accounts and so on you like you're immediately in this central

434
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:11,640
position you immediately have all these kind of headaches the the platform problem can't be solved

435
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:16,040
the cryptographic key material problem can absolutely be solved because you can split up a key

436
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,440
the multiple parts you can use frost you can do multisig you can do all those kind of things you can

437
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:27,720
like we can't do fancy stuff on the on the cryptographic side um but um let's actually like

438
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:33,320
we let's let's do one ring here okay and and and so I'm optimistic that we will figure that out

439
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:39,800
but I but I also get it of course I get your point that handing people nsecs right now is

440
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:47,160
yeah like 99 percent of people will lose their nsec or will just at the trade of

441
00:43:47,240 --> 00:43:51,240
just what it's doing because idea was it should just work for normal people normal people

442
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:58,120
the central platform is creating the attack but once the bar and restaurant got tripped a lot

443
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:04,280
you go there yeah one set actual onboarding starts so far off the onboarding flow yeah it's not

444
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:09,400
safe for studio but then it gets to save the story how do you combine the two accounts then

445
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,320
they're because I don't have two places yeah but you could right we could I think they're

446
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:19,880
different approaches to to sign this is now my new key I lost my old key I mean in the platform

447
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:27,640
you could do it very very simply you could just merge yeah yeah exactly yeah that's true yeah I think

448
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:34,360
also insights can do it you can say this insight is now owned by someone else and then they can

449
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:40,840
update yeah I think sandwich worked on like forking insights and and and those kind of things also

450
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:48,120
there's definitely stuff there it's it's it's it's possible but I'm just I'm just I keep I keep

451
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:54,760
kind of I don't know I had a I had a discussion with another friend recently where

452
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,280
because now of course there's big discussions about hardware wallets and our people even ever be

453
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:05,240
able will they ever be able to hold their keys yeah it's just too hard there's too many attack

454
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:12,360
factors I mean we obviously had the catastrophe that was the the cold card thing and now the

455
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:19,320
lecture supply chain attack and and I had this discussion with a friend and he was like like like

456
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,360
and he's quite a bit older than I am and he was basically like you're young

457
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:33,640
no but he's like he's like you know he could be my dad so and and he was like

458
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:40,040
he he doesn't see any issue with that at all because he's like okay we're talking about storing

459
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:46,280
your generational wealth yeah like is it too much to ask to lock yourself in a room with a

460
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,440
couple of dice and those kind of things to do the ritual I think it this case yes it makes sense

461
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,680
but but that was kind of his point that it's the point I'm also trying to make in the sense of

462
00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:01,480
I think your tank example is a great one as well like if you actually like driving driving a

463
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:06,680
gold card you know anyone can drive a gold card exactly you go to the gold card place

464
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:11,640
exactly it's very easy you sit in and so on that to me is like a whatever like a wallet of Satoshi

465
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,960
yeah yeah you know it's like okay you you just go and you just do it no one cares it doesn't matter

466
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:20,520
it doesn't go that fast you can't really hurt yourself yeah but if you if you want to drive a

467
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:29,320
tank but I'm not talking about license you really you really want to really you really want to

468
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:34,360
understand what's going on you want to you know what the food does have in the food yeah maybe

469
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:41,400
maybe like I always hate I always hate the gun examples because it's it's it's it's it's violence

470
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:48,040
it's violence you know and Bitcoin is non-violent but if you actually sit down to

471
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:55,000
create a multi-generational multi-six setup or something like that I think as a society we just

472
00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:01,960
have to learn and be okay with okay now this is actual important cryptographic key material

473
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,760
let's do it properly yeah let's make sure all the windows are closed let's make sure there's no

474
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:12,040
cameras no microphones nothing like you sit in the room you do the whole ritual you do the whole

475
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:17,960
thing you know like you burn some incense and you put on like whatever you know you do whatever's

476
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:24,520
necessary and it only takes like 30 minutes or whatever it doesn't take very long and and you take

477
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,200
very good care of the keys and so on and then you're done and you're good for the next whatever

478
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:33,400
20 30 years longer you know like well depending on your setup until we get a quantum computer

479
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:42,600
I want to point point by point base coin base is gonna fix that coin base is gonna fix the quantum

480
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:48,280
computer part like no don't worry about it they got it covered it's yeah naked more red will

481
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:54,120
will pay for the research now I'm not sure if the quantum computer risk is a real one it's

482
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:04,120
yeah every time I see this argument made it's mostly coming from people that have no idea

483
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,760
what a quantum computer is yeah or even like don't even have any idea of the cryptographic

484
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:14,440
cryptographic primitives that we're talking about yeah so up to now I've been very dismissive and

485
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:23,640
I know very little about quantum computers myself um but you know I I have to I have to show my

486
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:29,560
credentials I actually did one year of quantum computation at university yeah so I know I know

487
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:37,480
a little bit yeah okay but that was a long long time ago yeah so um but it's it's just yeah it's

488
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:42,360
fine yeah I do but you never know what happens in the future like uh the the research in AI

489
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:52,760
they they put 500 or 200 new mass problems we are in in definitely in the middle of the curve

490
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:58,680
of exponential times and so if you just throw a eye on it maybe they'll be able to build a stable

491
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:03,880
enough quantum computer that has enough qubits that can do something maybe they break elliptic curve

492
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:08,360
or hashing whatever I don't know yeah sure yeah there's always there's always there's always this

493
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:15,800
this is entropy like all cut it but to me you never know that's you never know but to me it's kind of

494
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:21,320
the like what should we be worried about right now and I don't think it's quantum computers I think

495
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:27,160
what we should actually be worried about right now is all this stuff we talked about in terms of

496
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:36,200
providing like like Fiatjaf will hate me for saying that but we should actually worry about

497
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:42,120
UI and UX yeah it's if Bitcoin is too complicated to use and too complicated to accept and too

498
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,840
complicated to spend no one's gonna use it no one's gonna care about it you mentioned also briefly

499
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:53,160
like lots of merchants here you Swiss Bitcoin Pay yeah Swiss Bitcoin Pay yeah and it was down because of

500
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:58,760
what's it because of the lnd thing the lnd x5 a few days yeah they were down for a couple days

501
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:04,200
and you mentioned like the reputational damage to Bitcoin because of that is immeasurable

502
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,120
exactly because all the merchants now dismiss it is like Bitcoin doesn't work you know

503
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,360
and so that's the stuff we have to figure out they're not the quantum computer yeah exactly

504
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:17,240
and it's also like a point even not that secure systems if they just work and the UI

505
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:24,520
it's as perfect maybe the perception from the user is better and more secure than the best

506
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:31,880
secure system absolutely for for small amount like tips maybe just pastings have an e-cache

507
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:37,160
or lightning wallet and once you have like $1,000 you put it on a ball 12 or if you have like

508
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:43,400
$10,000 you put it on your Bitcoin on-chain address or even maybe you withdraw to your Fiat account

509
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,520
because you need to buy food and drinks and so on for your own shop and I mean that's a very

510
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:54,600
natural thing and everyone understands this like you don't have you know like you have a bank

511
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:59,000
account you have a savings account you have a checking account you have money in your pocket

512
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:04,520
yeah you have a wallet in your pocket you know you have some loose change somewhere and so on

513
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:09,080
and that's always how I thought about it for me e-cache wallet is always like just loose change

514
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,400
somewhere and if you are very strict you can complain it's not secure enough it's not safe

515
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,960
custody so you can dismiss it but it's only for small amount nothing's perfect but nothing's

516
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:23,240
ever been perfect like you know it's it's there's the saying that I like there are no solutions

517
00:51:23,240 --> 00:51:31,320
only trade-offs you know it would be nice for a podcast and so you just have to be okay with

518
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:36,440
these types of trade-offs and that's the same for like also non Bitcoin based money you know

519
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:41,480
like you always have these types of trade-offs you're not gonna go to your underground bunker vault

520
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:46,520
and to take out a gold bar and melt it and create small coins and then go to the bakery to buy the

521
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:51,400
bread you know you're just not gonna do it yeah it's it's or you know sell a part of your real estate

522
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:56,040
or whatever you have you know like it's you you have these different trade-offs it's a very

523
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:03,320
natural thing exactly anyway anyway where were we make a space make a space make a space

524
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:10,920
when when when is it gonna open up that's not my part so that's I think Jesus and sandwich planning

525
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,800
for getting that out as long as they pay the lease you're happy you know everything is for free

526
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:20,200
there's all these all the make a space that's like my contribution fantastic the I think the

527
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:25,160
tarot to to get the hardware I think these days there were supplying not only chains attacks but

528
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:32,920
also like shortage okay I tried to get the rest repy for Jesus and they were not available only

529
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:38,200
in Switzerland so I asked a guy from Switzerland he was participating last SEC to get them to his

530
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:43,080
address and then he sent it to Germany and I brought it by a plane out to Jesus so at least we

531
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:48,360
have three of them and the entire thing like 3D printer and so I think they need it needs to get

532
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:53,000
it needs to get chipped sell that's what Jesus mentioned that it already exists it's already

533
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:58,760
bought and so on it's just like logistically we have to place we have some budget we know what we

534
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:05,000
want it's only a logistic problem awesome awesome and so if people want to swing by or help or

535
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:10,360
contribute like what can they do I don't know no sir office has a nice website now yeah right yeah

536
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:18,920
so that's we'll link to it so they they should just reach out and get in touch with some people

537
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:25,080
and then you know they'll figure out where it is and so on yeah right there was also no signal

538
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:32,760
podcast for getting some steps there was a bit kind of dress I think we can also put it there

539
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:37,960
yeah let's put it let's put it more crowdfunding more crowdfunding you'll have to you'll have to

540
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:42,760
buy the what's it called the filament for this 3D printer right yeah like you have ongoing

541
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:48,840
contributions yeah you're recurring recurring both 12 payments please recurring both 12 only

542
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:56,040
is there any recurring Bitcoin payment without having a system running to do it without

543
00:53:56,040 --> 00:54:03,320
having massive headaches no no there isn't yet I mean both 12 has it in the spec but I don't

544
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:08,680
think it's actually life in production anywhere I would be surprised please correct me if I'm wrong

545
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:18,600
but yeah no no there's still a long way to go just when when you say that with ecash you can

546
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:25,240
time lock an ecash token to the next month to the next month plus one and then you can give for

547
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:29,240
four years contributions but you time lock them so you can't spend them earlier you only like the

548
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:35,880
I see but then you but you have to you need to have the money upfront yeah which is an issue

549
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:43,160
so only whales can do it and it's easy you just get it regular working person you can't do

550
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:51,160
yeah there's still lots of issues that's it's it's like with all the criticism I have for the

551
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:58,120
fiat system lots of features that evolved in the fiat system are actually extremely useful like

552
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:05,400
you know like having these I mean we have similar things we have LNURL withdrawal you know

553
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:12,520
where you can just basically give someone permission to take a certain amount of money out of

554
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:17,080
the account every month that's how most people pay their rent right and like every every other

555
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:22,200
thing it's just like you give the permission once you sign the paper and this other person is

556
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:27,400
authorized to take the certain amount of money out of your account and so and you absolutely

557
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:32,920
need this like as someone who has been living on a basically full Bitcoin standard for multiple

558
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:41,000
years now like whatever five six years or so it's such an insane pain like the logistics of just

559
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:46,360
getting payments done if they are not automated yeah it's a full-time job yeah it's a full-time

560
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,760
job it's completely insane it I always lose my mind just kind of trying to get all the payments done

561
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:57,000
and just you know mentioned paying stuff manually you mean that that too I mean that that is also

562
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:02,360
opens sense basically does payroll for developers what that's how you can think of it in some sense

563
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:08,760
and that's why you need like from all and exactly and and doing payroll on the on the Bitcoin

564
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:14,200
standard it's a fucking nightmare yeah no software it really exists for it like if you actually

565
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:20,360
want to do it yourself you know like without a third party and and like doing it there's very

566
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:24,920
little room for error like you because there's no undo button there's no bank you can call

567
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:33,480
and so on so silent payments is something that is coming along nicely but has been in the works

568
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:39,640
for a long time this will this would solve a lot of the on-chain issues in terms of like okay so

569
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:43,400
we don't want to reuse you don't want to you don't want to reuse addresses right and you don't

570
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:47,960
want people to expap you never want you don't want to do that yeah you I don't want to have the

571
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:53,240
expap of people I don't want to reuse addresses and so on like if you would do payroll like that

572
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:58,200
that should be out of the question yeah because it gives you as an employer I just I'm just speaking

573
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:04,280
in general terms now I use the employer would have way too much financial insights yeah right yeah

574
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:10,920
to your employees and which comes with a lot of other like everything has like a long red

575
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:15,640
stale because I don't want to know what my employee spent money on right because if I could know

576
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:22,120
yeah and if I see they do illegal stuff for whatever I would have to report that and so

577
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:26,280
you don't want to know about it no you don't want to know about it yeah it's it's it's I don't I

578
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,200
don't want to know if one of my employees goes to a drug dealer and buy drugs and so on and because

579
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:36,040
because like I'm sure in certain jurisdictions it's like if you would in theory be able to know

580
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,800
about illegal activity you would have to report it to authorities and all those kind of things

581
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,560
right so so there's there's there's a million different nightmares that people just never think

582
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:49,320
about these things yes and so um so you don't want to reuse addresses you don't want to get

583
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:55,880
ax pops which means you have to get there is no liquidity like like like paying salary level

584
00:57:55,880 --> 00:58:02,360
money doesn't work no okay who who is gonna provide the liquidity to do let's say you have a

585
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:08,040
company of a thousand people yeah and everyone gets a hundred K a year yeah and you pay everyone

586
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:24,920
monthly I appreciate the idea but the new level of headaches um so yeah it's a big issue and

587
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:31,320
and so so what make it what would make it way easier is silent payments because then you have

588
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:38,120
and identified it doesn't change and so I can just you know pay to whatever you know

589
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:45,800
Jesus at you know maker space maker dot space Jesus at Madeira maker dot space great domain name

590
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:53,480
great domain name buy it buy it now yeah you have three hours three hours yeah

591
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:59,720
and and so silent payments would remove a lot of the headache but the issue with silent

592
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:06,120
payments is um then there is no multi sick wallet support yet yeah and so if you actually have

593
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:12,920
a thousand people company and you pay everyone a lot of money then just to do payroll you don't

594
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,760
want to have everything in a in a single sick and definitely not in a software single sick you know

595
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:22,520
yeah like you there's all these kind of things so you want to have everything in multi sick at

596
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:27,560
at all times yeah and that means silent payments don't work now because there is no

597
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:33,880
multi sick hardware wallet support for it yet and like again it's there's all these issues and

598
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:38,520
all these issues can be so you mean for sending or for receiving because business is doing

599
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:43,320
something with silent payment at least you can I think you can send with sparrow and you can check

600
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:48,840
on your yeah you can you can you can send but you can from you can not from a multi sick as far as

601
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:55,400
you know so anyway there's all these issues and lightning kind of it would be nice to do

602
00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:02,840
stuff on lightning but it also again from a from a fund security perspective you would have to

603
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:08,120
put all the funds in lightning yeah which means you would have to put them on a life hot key

604
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:12,040
it's like we're having liquid and then you get hacked yeah I mean that's the next headache

605
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:20,280
you know just right rattling off all the news you know no time less content today it's just

606
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:27,240
it's just the news but yeah it's you don't want to you don't want to have like a million bucks

607
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:34,360
a month yeah enlightening all the time and so on it's like but that means that you can't really

608
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:44,040
I mean you can do on chain payroll and you can automate all that it's just if the software

609
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:50,840
exists I don't know about it I don't think anyone actually does Bitcoin paste payroll well

610
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,720
and there is no there's definitely no open source software about it however

611
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:02,600
there will be very very soon because you won't give me no but but I'm serious like someone

612
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,680
is gonna build it it might as well be me but but but someone is gonna build it and that that

613
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:12,440
leads me actually to the next thing I wanted to talk with you about the kind of yeah we touched on

614
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:16,760
it before as well like the super abundance of software like you come from the software you build

615
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:23,160
software and so on like what's give me your take on it like anyone can wipe code anything now with

616
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:28,760
the process I described before and so on so how do how do you see this playing out yeah and how will

617
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:33,880
it be also maybe different for you in your own life exactly so I think four years ago I almost cried

618
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:39,800
when I saw a shaggy pt doing some simple coding stuff and I thought okay well if this involves

619
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:47,160
my 30 years of work isn't the value is zero yeah you just mentioned when when we met you you

620
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:51,400
mentioned you don't see yourself as a program anymore right yeah what do you see yourself as now

621
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:56,760
more like a software architect combining different ideas and I don't have this ideas on my own

622
01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:02,360
I just take other ideas and then put them together somehow to make sense I mean everything's a remix

623
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:06,760
you know like there there it's I have to link to the normal clipper again like where do your ideas

624
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:11,880
come from you know it's like yeah it's a funny question because no one knows you're with your

625
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:17,800
straw right and with neck donuts there was like the milkshake how to solve a problem the milkshake

626
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:24,440
solving a problem for driving to work from home you you can can drink the milkshake because it

627
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:32,040
takes like 10 minutes so you're busy and and you fill the up yeah right the job and it's not about

628
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:37,640
the milkshake it's about like solving these two problems to fill you up and to not bore you while

629
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:43,880
driving to work and so you're trying to figure out what kind of problems like these exist still

630
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:49,480
in the software yeah and how can you fix it by prompting the agents exactly combining two ideas

631
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:55,960
maybe yeah what's your current setup look like because I told you about mine and I'm basically

632
01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:00,120
almost voice only now yeah and you said you still like the type so what's your what's your setup

633
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:04,440
look like right I also tried your pipeline and and forked it to pipeline plus plus I wanted

634
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:09,960
also to do voice but it didn't really work I also had the idea from Adrian he had like a e ink

635
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:18,520
display being at the beach yeah you can just draw stuff just draw yeah after Just Works after

636
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:24,040
Just Works, it's JustPay I need to buy a new man I already have like 100 plus to man it's so expensive

637
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:32,360
yeah that is like to be out there and then put your ideas into voice I don't like to speak

638
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:37,960
same who I don't like to draw so I still I still at my notebook so that's why you're still typing

639
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:44,360
the one input method you you don't hate yeah exactly but typing I don't type like eight hours

640
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:51,160
like ten years ago maybe I type now also the most time is like thinking interesting okay but still

641
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:57,160
typing and also checking on the computer yeah so I have a huge screen you have one of these the

642
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:03,640
the curved ones yeah and also have my phones I have also the possibility to to chat some ideas

643
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:08,760
but usually I don't speak I just chat and check and also the setup is more like I'm also like

644
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:17,240
and sis admin and nowadays my i's managing also the new oh they're great at sis us yeah it's

645
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:22,920
also the same like you have maybe 25 plus years experience in units and so on but the i's so

646
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:27,720
good yeah even someone without this experience is better than you having this experience and

647
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:33,000
most of the pain is gone now that's that's that's that's what kind of that's that's what I still

648
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,760
can't believe because developing software and doing sis ups and doing all this stuff it's so

649
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:41,960
painful yeah usually it's so painful it used to be so painful so much pain like you really have

650
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:48,120
to suffer through it and you have to suffer through like manuals and figuring stuff out and like

651
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:53,640
even figuring out what's wrong and like just debugging stuff and it's so painful it takes such a long

652
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:59,640
time all that's gone now I feel like yeah also I'm running for different fix notes in different

653
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:05,000
countries and it's so easy with having one agent managing all the notes yeah there's a new release

654
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:10,680
just say please update make sure to roll back if possible if needed yeah and it's perfect also do

655
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:15,000
you say like hard in my service and then it has a very good ideas to harm the server even better

656
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:20,200
than if you would harm it on your own so after you know like the 20 years of doing it yeah exactly

657
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:25,960
but it's also no surprise I mean it knows 20 years plus for everyone exactly for everyone yeah

658
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:34,040
that's so smart in every domain yeah yeah it's crazy like I'm still trying to digest all of it and

659
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:38,520
of course we're still in the midst of it you know like with everything is still evolving very rapidly

660
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:45,400
so and for me it's just kind of like I software has been my life forever like same as you I started

661
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:53,880
coding around that age as well like when I was whatever like for me it was like the I was setting

662
01:05:53,880 --> 01:06:01,720
up Windows 3.11 or something yeah and just writing like start a bash scripts for that and like

663
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:06,040
so that it just would print something on the screen and I would type in my name and it would

664
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:11,240
print it back to me and like those kind of things and I must have I don't know how old I was but

665
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:20,200
also like 8 9 10 that age range and it just it's just escalated from there and and yeah I mean I

666
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:28,280
I think I started coding proper with just a game development or just like building building levels

667
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:38,040
for you can you come 3d oh nice yeah that was kind of the first like proper like actually writing

668
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:41,560
proper code in some sense like you step on a trigger and something happens and like all those kind

669
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:51,160
of things and and yeah I mean I'm just I'm just bringing all that up because I've been I've been

670
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:58,200
in software like forever and it's the biggest change that I've experienced since like 30 years

671
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:05,560
of the software yeah I feel like I feel like it it's for me the biggest switch back in the day

672
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:11,080
was actually connecting computers together and and kind of not having a very stupid computer script

673
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:15,720
on the other side but another human like with gaming in particular because just the gaming AI

674
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:23,160
were so bad like you could always beat them yeah and and and now it's just now that the computer

675
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:27,640
are almost becoming like people in the sense that like now and I mentioned this with Jesus like

676
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:36,120
most of my talking that I do now on a day-to-day like in my daily life on a daily work day I mostly

677
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:41,800
talk to computers now and they write back as if it was a quasi person on the other end you know

678
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:46,520
and so it's very very weird and in terms of just software production again the cost of software

679
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:51,880
dropped to basically zero yeah and this will continue to happen like local models will catch up

680
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:56,200
they get smaller they'll get smarter they get faster it's like I'm not worried about any gap

681
01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:00,840
between frontier models in the cloud and local models it's like this will all basically run on your

682
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:06,360
phone chip yeah very soon like it's it's anyone will have access to that I'm not worried about that

683
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:11,320
at all it's not going to be a running away AI that controls the world it's it's everyone who's

684
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:16,840
gonna have like the experience we are having right now having access to frontier models and like

685
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:22,120
all this kind of stuff I think it will be very private I think it like again like we we have

686
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:28,360
stuff running in in trusted execution environments right now we have tinfoil stuff right now and so on

687
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:35,880
this will just be normal to have and yeah it will be as smart like give it 12 months and whatever

688
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:39,960
runs on your phone locally will probably be close to what we have on the frontier now yeah

689
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:46,520
and yeah it's yeah there is no stopping that it's just because the self the recursive self

690
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:52,440
improvement also plays in our favor you can use frontier models to make to distill the local models

691
01:08:52,440 --> 01:08:58,840
and to make just everything better and smarter and so on and so it's I was just talking to another

692
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:05,160
friend like today in the morning I was up very early today you can look at the at the Feather

693
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:11,800
release timestamps like 4 a.m. no I was up super early and and so I was talking with him about

694
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:18,920
user interfaces he's developing a product and I told him like I think user interfaces will basically

695
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:24,440
kind of go away or be at hawk yeah they will either go away completely because it's just going

696
01:09:24,440 --> 01:09:33,080
to be voice or chat interface or it's just hey like I just need to whatever like give me the

697
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:37,640
data in the table and I want to be able to modify it and it will spit out an excel excel like

698
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:42,200
interface just for two minutes you know and then you're done with that and then it just goes away

699
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:47,000
so software will will just be produced a real time yeah maybe I don't know

700
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:50,680
yeah maybe understand what you want maybe you just look at your phone it sees what you want

701
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,280
thing and then it just I mean that's kind of what I did with Feather in the sense for the video

702
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:58,120
player I didn't build a video player it's just like I want to have a full screen video player because

703
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:02,920
there's videos or not so I want to watch them and I want to have exactly the same controls I

704
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:07,720
I want to have it work exactly in the same way as VLC the video player that I've been using for like

705
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:12,760
20 years because I'm so used to it it's like ingrained in my pathways I don't want to I don't

706
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:19,960
want to have different controls nothing and and this was basically it took 30 seconds to build

707
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:24,920
and prompt that's all it was one it was one voice prompt and it was done and so so we're all

708
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:29,720
already living in this world and I think it would just be normal to to have something like that

709
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:36,360
and and and back to the McDonald's matter for if something is free to produce basically like almost

710
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:41,880
zero cost to produce it is going to be a throw away product yeah right automatically yeah

711
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:47,720
and then back to your question like we both know that we can develop a lot more software and

712
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:52,280
if you have like a team company or an OpenSats brand or so whatever you know that you can

713
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:57,720
produce a lot more with your current team so I have like a company developing with five people

714
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:02,920
with sprints and they have to produce 10 X more now but the problem is we don't have customers

715
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:08,520
to buy for 10 X more the prices will decrease for software they expect better features better

716
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:13,480
functionalities better you are you X so so we'll have an oversupply of software yeah another

717
01:11:13,480 --> 01:11:19,720
enough demand yeah you think yeah maybe the customer's expect maybe not for the software that

718
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:26,120
was produced up to now yeah yeah it's the same on the university side by the way I was talking to

719
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:34,520
another Australian very good friend of mine also long long long term Bitcoin has my cook he wrote

720
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:41,160
about like the mining dynamics of Bitcoin super early like I think 2014 or something like that

721
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:47,800
super sharp guy and he's at university now and he he mentioned that

722
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:54,360
everyone is like leaning into AI heavily and just if you're if you're a researcher the assumption

723
01:11:54,360 --> 01:12:01,800
is now your your your output has to be like 5 X in terms of the papers you produce all those kind

724
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:07,000
of things then it was pre AI yeah same idea yeah right it's like you have to existing software

725
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:13,160
development team everyone knows what they are doing previously you were able to whatever build

726
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:18,840
one app in six months or whatever and now the assumption is that you build an app like every three

727
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:25,320
days or whatever like what I also found is like our infrastructure got much better not only like

728
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:32,840
we produce a UI UX but now the testing we do like ISO/IEC 25010 testing so a quality security

729
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:37,800
improved a lot and all the bugs we did like when we coded on our own with our brains there were

730
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:43,240
so many bugs and their eyes not doing so many bugs so I think the quality on different surfaces

731
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:49,400
increased so maybe you know the iceberg it's like you see the top yeah 20% is down and you don't

732
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:55,960
see all the bugs but but not with AI it finds so many things which is maybe performance issue

733
01:12:55,960 --> 01:13:01,160
security issue and also penetration tests and and so on we did with the same team so it's not

734
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:08,760
that we don't work less we reproduce more things behind the scenes yeah but now like in the year

735
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:15,000
what do you do next yeah it's and usually when that stuff happens the demand will come as well

736
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:20,520
right it's it's it's the what's it's called Jevons paradox from economics right where you have

737
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:25,240
a highway and it's always give a two lane highway yeah and it's always congested yeah and then

738
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:29,160
you build it out to like a five lane highway and then it takes like a month and then it's always

739
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:37,160
congested again you know and and I think this will be similar as well where where like yeah I

740
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:44,440
don't know like you you you just and the and equilibrium will be found like that's for sure

741
01:13:44,440 --> 01:13:51,800
right now right now like everything is turned upside down in the software world and the interesting

742
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:56,360
part though on on on the quality side and quality assurance side and testing side is that you have

743
01:13:56,360 --> 01:14:03,080
all these standards I mean I talked with Pablo about this a lot with his 10X project and so on

744
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:09,240
that I think the right approach to this is like all the all the hierarchies that we build inside

745
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:14,040
companies all the specifications that we specced out as software developers like you mentioned the

746
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:19,960
ISO standard for testing and so on all that makes sense and you just have to treat your agents

747
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:25,320
as proper employees and it will have to have the same hierarchies and work according to the same

748
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:29,560
standards it's also how I do my software development in the in the sense I do it in the same way

749
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:35,800
and I treat my agents as team members and I just handle them as I handle all my teams in the past

750
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:39,320
and it's like okay here's how this is going to go down we're going to commit early we're going to

751
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:42,760
commit often we're going to use conventional commits we're going to keep a change log as per the

752
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:48,440
keep a change log convention we're going to use semantic versioning this is our git repo let's go

753
01:14:48,440 --> 01:14:54,120
and it's really good because they they listen to you they don't get ill they work even on the night

754
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:58,920
sure i mean it's the it's the the same conversations we're had when we switched from

755
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:06,920
from regular flesh and blood bank tellers to automatic teller machines to ATMs where it's like

756
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:13,080
you can go to the bank and get money out every every day of the week and also at night and so on

757
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:20,120
it's like they never they're never grumpy they're never closed and so on yeah but it's strange it's

758
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:26,520
still very strange it it will take a long time I think I don't even know if it takes a long time

759
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:32,360
but it's very disorienting right now that's for sure it's very disorienting and it doesn't matter

760
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:39,400
whether you see it coming or not because like lots of people saw that coming and you know

761
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:46,920
I definitely saw a lot of that stuff coming I've been talking with Pablo about this for like two

762
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:51,640
years now at least you know and and I've been reading all the singularity books before that and

763
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:57,960
so on it's like I've been I've been in this world for a long time but seeing the looping coming

764
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:04,120
on the roller coaster doesn't remove the looping exactly you know like you see you know what's

765
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:09,400
gonna happen you know that this is what the future has in store for us and then you're in the double

766
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:13,560
looping and yeah you're about to throw up you know that's that's how I feel like right now

767
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:19,400
that's probably a good place to end it I'm gonna throw up in real life as well because it's

768
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:24,440
it's very hot right now I don't know if you have enough space on your phone for that recording

769
01:16:26,120 --> 01:16:33,160
there is plenty of space there is plenty of space don't worry that was nice any last words anything

770
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:37,400
I forgot because you were really good at guiding me through the conversation I think we

771
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:43,400
cover many topics even more than we started that's why I love these conversations so much because

772
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:49,880
you never know you never know how they are gonna go you never know where you end up and I feel like

773
01:16:51,080 --> 01:16:58,920
to me also maybe maybe one more anecdote at least in part I started working on Feather the

774
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:07,400
Nostr client in part because with this Dialogical Development it's almost like agile you know but I

775
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:12,360
would call it Dialogical Development which to me also sovereign engineering represents like the

776
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:18,120
whole concept of sovereign engineering is based on the idea of Dialogical Development having a

777
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:25,560
dialogue in the proper John Vervaeke dialogue sense and the characteristic of a proper dialogue

778
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:30,120
is exactly that you don't have a goal in mind you don't I don't want to sell you something yeah I

779
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:35,320
just want to have a dialogue and you don't know where it goes exactly and for me lots of development

780
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:40,760
now it's like that where I started Feather and I had something in mind but it's almost like

781
01:17:42,440 --> 01:17:47,800
it's almost like woodworking where it depends on the piece of wood and you have to like never

782
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:53,640
go against the grain right it's like you have to depending on the imperfections in the wood and

783
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:57,560
all those kind of things your piece will turn out differently if it would have been a different

784
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:02,520
type of wood it would have turned out differently again and the only way to figure out what this

785
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:07,480
piece of wood wants to turn into is to actually work on it and shape it and so on Zaza had this

786
01:18:07,480 --> 01:18:11,400
example as well and like polishing the stone you know like if if you do something out of marble and

787
01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:15,640
so on you just make the very rough cuts and so on and then you have to polish the stone forever that's

788
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:21,560
why his his stuff is so good because he's really good at polishing the stone and so I kept I kept

789
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:26,600
kind of thinking about it while I was working on Feather because it's like like the development

790
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:30,920
process took me in direction and took the whole thing in in in in directions that I didn't expect

791
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:35,320
yeah that I didn't expect where it's just like I was working on it and it's like oh yeah like

792
01:18:35,320 --> 01:18:39,640
that's actually a good idea like maybe maybe we can do it like this and I would always go in a

793
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:45,640
conversation with with the agent of like my one of my main tricks is like I want to change something

794
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:50,520
or build something I always ask you give me the top five things to to do that like give me the top

795
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:56,360
five ways to implement it and they will rank the five ways to implement it okay and and then I

796
01:18:56,360 --> 01:19:01,400
can pick one of those like one or two are always probably pretty good and then I can pick one of

797
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:06,280
those and iterate from there and do the top five trick again and so on and and so so it is there

798
01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:10,680
is a proper dialogue going on in some sense like there's a back and forth or not so you take

799
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:15,960
them absolutely no I'm the one who provides the taste yeah exactly and I also agree with some

800
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:21,080
engineering so you have different people with different skills different personas coming to an

801
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:27,240
island and you never meet them otherwise in the real world yeah and and you enter this shared

802
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:33,000
space which is a curated space and it's also it's distinct from real life basically in some sense

803
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:37,480
it's almost like a play where you or you're together in an escape room right it's like it's a

804
01:19:37,480 --> 01:19:43,240
different situation and different things happen and the reason the whole premise of sovereign

805
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:48,360
engineering is single people single brains cannot figure out the solutions to hard problems

806
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:55,960
and so you have to tap into distribute a cognition the whole internet is kind of like a hive might

807
01:19:55,960 --> 01:20:03,160
you know but it's very slow real life interaction is way faster and also if you actually enter into

808
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:08,200
the shared space in a physical environment it is very different it's something something happens

809
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:12,600
to you I can't explain it it's like you know the aura people will tell you it's or us you know

810
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:18,840
the neuroscientists will tell you something else and so on but it definitely works and and the

811
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:26,920
whole program is geared towards maximizing this distributed cognition flow state where like the

812
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:32,920
whole room the whole group is banging their head the collective brains against the same problem

813
01:20:33,480 --> 01:20:39,400
and you enter this flow state that is that is very natural that is very kind of like no one can

814
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:43,560
stop thinking about it everyone wants to solve the problem without a without a payoff just again

815
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:49,800
just like a good conversation basically and and so yeah that's that's kind of so strange to me

816
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:57,000
that the software development is for me at least now is that as well like like it's together in the

817
01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:01,880
Nostr hive mind like I'm participating in that I'm not very much participating but at least I'm

818
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:06,920
reading all the discussions about the various nips and how to do things and so on and and like

819
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:09,960
there's this conversation going on and then there's a separate conversation I have with my

820
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:16,360
agents warm on how to build it and how to actually realize it and and and and build it out and yeah

821
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:23,400
I mean to me it's like like I said before as long as it keeps working I want to continue to do that

822
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:31,240
and maybe the last thing because then I can link to it we want to do a mountain cohort next year

823
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:35,800
so we're gonna do multiple cohorts again in Madeira that's the plan we're gonna do the long one

824
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:42,280
in summer yeah we're gonna do a three week one before that focused on FIPS so we're gonna do a spring

825
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:47,960
cohort in Madeira as well focused on FIPS and match networking and everything FIPS basically and

826
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:55,640
everything that FIPS touches on so you know the I was about to say fab lab the maker space

827
01:21:56,040 --> 01:22:02,360
the maker space is gonna come in handy there as well yeah and for the six week one we're gonna

828
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:07,000
do a break week so it's not gonna be as intense as the last one but it's gonna be in the summer again

829
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:15,000
also in spring we want to do a mountain cohort off the island because one of the issues is that most

830
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:23,560
people can't just they they can't come for reasons yeah it's a very big ask it's um yeah it's

831
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:29,720
expensive as well and we want to do it in mainland Europe probably in in Italy North and

832
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:37,800
parts of Italy and just kind of do one week do one cycle like a six week or the six cycles like

833
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:44,920
six loops and we just want to do one week and on a demo day like have have exactly that stuff

834
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:50,360
that that I talked about just now just just get everyone in the same group in the same room like

835
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:57,000
build a cohesive group really get the brain chooses flowing um pick a couple specific problems

836
01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:01,720
that we might want to want to solve and literally walk up a mountain and go to a mountain hut

837
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:07,400
actually make some expeditions because all we do is talk and think we don't need devices so what

838
01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:12,040
I want to experiment with is like meet in the valley everyone presents their stuff we have all

839
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:18,280
the devices all all the all the stuff we need there yeah and then we go up the mountain and um yeah

840
01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:25,240
we we kind of purely focus on conversations and brainstorming and all you have with you is

841
01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:29,560
basically pen and paper for at least like two nights or so yeah yeah and then you come back

842
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:34,120
it down you come down from the mountain and you have 24 hours to implement and then you end on

843
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:38,440
the demo day oh it's nice because with the with the clanker me 24 hours is enough it's enough

844
01:23:38,440 --> 01:23:45,240
it's it's like six months yeah but that's fine people can implement two or three things

845
01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:50,840
yeah yeah we'll see and so that's the idea and so I'm going to push the new website life

846
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:57,720
before I release this before the clankers releases so I have a couple hours and um yeah

847
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:01,400
we have a new domain as well you mentioned about your domain hoarding we were lucky to get

848
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:09,080
someone provided it for us actually uh soveng.com oh nice and so it's going to be soveng.com

849
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:14,200
slash mountain and we'll still have sovereign engineering IO and we'll do all the redirects and so on

850
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:22,040
but yeah I also I told you I got nosolutions.show ah I didn't even get it one of my clankers

851
01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:29,160
figured out it's still free and bought it but you had to press on button yes bio you know I had to

852
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:37,000
put in my UV key to confirm yeah just fund the agent and then they do business for you yeah it's

853
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:42,200
fantastic and for this one that's like nosolutions.show/39 and you'll be on the page

854
01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:47,240
and everything and it's fantastic it's a strange new world yeah it's a strange new world

855
01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:53,720
all right any last words no more was mostly me talking it feels like you interviewed me

856
01:24:53,720 --> 01:25:00,520
it's perfectly fine it was my vote I don't like to talk about all right thanks so much for

857
01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:06,040
indulging me thank you that was great I'll need I'll need a drink now yeah you were you were

858
01:25:06,040 --> 01:25:11,640
smart to bring some water I didn't this time around so I'm I'm properly dehydrated now

859
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:18,760
that's it's going to be fine all right that looks good that looks good and I'm going to check

860
01:25:18,760 --> 01:25:23,480
on the Feather update now to fix the bug you reported