yeah let's see if it works this time around okay let's check that looks good
so good we're live live let's do this not really like don't get hit by truck
yeah that's kind of the goal always hopefully say something that isn't too
stupid and don't get hit by a truck and don't die don't die number one don't
f up and die exactly all right I'm just gonna wing it but I think I know the way
and it's gonna be a little bit uphill we're gonna be a little bit huffing and
huffing will do and we'll just see where it takes us yep so yeah like I said
yesterday we you you kind of had a couple of interesting thoughts and questions
and I was like are you willing to go deeper into this for like an hour or 90
minutes or something and obviously it relates to a lot of the things you ran
into when building out white noise yes so tell me about it what are the walls you
ran into what a journey what a journey honestly it's like one of those things
if I'd known how hard it was gonna be I maybe would have thought about it a bit
more but no I mean it's like there you can't hope for more than to have a really
hard problem to work on that matters right and I think the the biggest thing and we
kind of knew this going in right like the the MLS RFC the paper says like you know
strict ordering is required yeah and you know it's a continuous green key agreement scheme and so really
all MLS is giving you is the system to go start with this key and this is how you get to the next
key yeah and this is how you you know guarantee that these are the members of the group and you know people
have what they're supposed to have and not supposed to have other stuff they don't care about
identity and they don't care about delivery yeah and I was like cool Noster identity delivery we can do this
um I think I vastly underestimated how hard it would be to keep that ordering proper
um and that's basically the sum of all the problems uh you know all the problems come from
um come from that you know we have to at some way in some way shape or form get relays to give us
everything and then figure out a way to order those things and if you are ever missing a single commit
which in MLS speak is the thing that evolves the group state yeah if you're ever missing a single
one of those one with Noster you don't know that you're missing it necessarily and if you don't
have it you can't continue to evolve the group in the right way yeah and in practice what then happens
is like let's say you have a group chat and let's say there's like eight people in the group chat yep
in practice correct me if I'm wrong but in practice what would happen is four people like the group
splits kind of and four people without noticing it are actually in a different group chat in a different
room and the other four like without noticing it there's there's a split and there's two different
exactly forked histories and no one can know that that's happened yeah because they only have their
local state yeah there is no like server you can ask it doesn't look as if anything's wrong but like
basically everything's wrong but everything's wrong correct um and and obviously there's a really
good solution to this which is called a centralized server yeah that orders the commits for you and
coordinates everything and sends you truth yeah but that's not Noster and that's like not what we're
trying to do we're trying to build a system that is unstoppable like I think I started the whole project
thinking okay we're going to make the most private messenger ever and through this process I think
my thinking has evolved to know what we're actually building is an unstoppable messenger yeah you know
one that is in and encrypted but cannot be shut down by anyone and that is as interesting but is a very
different sort of set of things that you have to think about when you're thinking about the trade-offs
yeah and putting a coordinator in the middle of that breaks that entire thing
will it always break that or is there a way to have coordinators that are equally trustless and
exchangeable as relays are so that's definitely one option um you know i i've talked to some
uh very accomplished cryptographers in the space about this and like that was and that is some of the
stuff that some of them are actually working on which is how do you build a server that is
um as trustless as possible but still you have you know cryptographic guarantees that they're doing
things correctly and you can still swap them out you know unilateral exit still exists for it yeah
you swap them at any time but it does require you know some coordination on the group level to say
you know coordinator a is our lead coordinator for now and if you want to switch you've got to make
that call some yeah no to make the switch yeah yeah i see i see that's the issue of like let's say you're
all over the world and an underground c cable goes down and like again eight people in the group and
for four people the coordinator a is unreachable right how do you agree that that's the actual case
exactly and so on i mean this is like one of these fundamental like mathematically you're right
there's no way to no solutions yeah exactly there's no way to like perfectly mathematically solve this
yeah um and so i think what we're working towards is how do we make it um as close to uh you know
perfectly orderable so you get all these messages in off of relays and you have a you know deterministic
state machine that helps you go okay this is the order based on these messages and if i find myself in a
situation where i'm fairly certain i'm somehow out of sync or something seems a bit off there's a really
easy way to just automatically recover back into the group which mls thankfully gives us this you know
re-init proposal yeah i see we we we briefly hit on this yesterday i think when we discussed pablo's
terrible invention of the serial killer relay thanks for nothing pablo thank you pablo yeah great naming and
you're well done your uh amazing naming ability continues to stand untested like he just he sent me the the
the github link and then one line below it and and it just said i'm gonna regret this so much you know
like it's his second biggest sin after uh insect bunker after insect bunker yeah oh man yeah well but um i i i do
understand kind of the motivation for it of course um and we had this discussion yesterday also with kelly
and basically how to best do this without breaking fundamental aspects of noster basically yep and
my argument was like let's please not call it relays like if those are yes if the the special purpose
of these things is like to provide chain things exactly provide an order of events that can't be
broken like that enforced on a relay level let's let's call it something else and yeah there is um
various opinions on that i would say um but would this like with the serial killer relay um
help in your use case question one and question two kind of we hit on this i think yesterday as well
um like you you mentioned re-entering the correct state and all those kind of things like how far
back do you need to go like if we build up chains of events how long will these chains be yeah i mean
i guess an ordering server or a coordinator doesn't solve all the problems and it and it
like everything comes with trade-offs uh you would be required effectively to lose a little bit of
privacy in order to um make sure that each of these events these commits you're publishing
are sort of recognizable as a event as a commit and has a pointer back to the thing it's
referencing off of explain that some more how would you sacrifice privacy well so let's think about
a really simple because the coordinator knows the coordinator has to know what it is yeah and
the coordinator already knows like a group id that is rotatable and changeable and things like that but
uh still it needs to know that like this is this specific type of event that's important to be
ordered um and here's the previous event you know that it's pointing to yeah and so it can then
create a map of okay these are all the changes that have happened in this group over time and it can't
see what the changes were but based on timing and a lot of other things you get more you can at least
glimpse activity of course yeah yeah and and like and you know unless you're using tour everywhere like
you know you can a sophisticated actor can definitely you know wine stuff together with ip addresses and
all sorts of things yeah yeah um so it's uh it's trade-off like yeah and and this because i um
all right let me let me let me see how well let's do this i'll do a really like simple example back
like i think the ordering things make a lot of sense for certain event types where like i mean
maybe even like uh like your metadata profile is a good example like you want to be able to
only replace it when you know what the previous one was so you don't clobber some other change yeah um
okay yeah yeah but but but but but but you'll always hey we managed you look that's the graveyard
perfect i was so hoping for that yeah now i know where i am again um
but again it's not a problem that can be solved like i i think i brought this up briefly yesterday
i've been using sync thing for like ever like ever since before it was called sync thing and there
are some other tools that basically are like local first and have synchronization and like 50 peter
synchronization and so on and you always run into these issues like sometimes i'll i'll i'll edit a
note for example on my phone and i don't realize that the phone is in flight mode or something and i
added the same note that i like every every every day for me starts the same yeah like most a lot of
people have a blank sheet of paper i have like an empty note for every day and i'll just write stuff in
there and and so you know then for whatever reason my phone has no connectivity or it's a flight mode i
i add something i add a line and then i go back to the laptop and it's connected and i don't i don't
even realize that i created a conflict but obviously it's a there's a conflict yeah and so you could
the metadata example that you mentioned could be the same thing you know like you have a relay on your
phone and it's 100 it's like you can't solve this issue and like yeah no you can't like there's no
there's no mathematical way to solve this problem yeah in a you know perfect everyone who ever worked
with git knows this like that's you always will run into a conflict at some merge conflicts and
you'll have to resolve that and you basically just have to have like what are the rules that we use to
break a conflict and decide someone's a winner and it's totally arbitrary but you have to set some
rules yeah and that's effectively what we're evolving towards in marmot is like we're going to have a
deterministic state machine yeah and there's going to be rules and they're going to be tunable
but your group agrees that like these are the consensus not consensus but like these are the
convergence rules for this group and this is how the state machine will function and the reason why
it has to be a deterministic state machine or like a graph-like thing is because you can't rely on
timestamps because timestamps can't be forged exactly exactly and so like that was actually one of the
main i think flaws with my original design environment is that we used timestamps yeah to go okay just
order it naively by timestamp and then lexographically by id yeah um it's still such an underappreciated
thing of the bitcoin system that it actually doesn't rely on timestamps really bananas like it's you
think about these really small things and you're like oh yeah it doesn't really use clocks at all
it's such an important uh point and concept and it's what makes everything work so beautifully and
it sounds so simple that people very quickly overlook it and it's not at all it's not at all if you just
if you go deep into the difficulty adjustment you'll realize oh wow that's so ingenious yeah and the funny
thing is also like i sometimes point this out when i talk about these things like if you if you try to set up an
ethereum node or any proof stake system the first step is always like make sure your clocks are accurate
and connect to this time server yeah you know like you need you need like nano second accuracy yeah
for all your clocks and no one can ever cheat ever yeah because otherwise things just go to hell yeah
but anyway okay so you have the state machine and what i actually wanted to kind of line up in terms of
a question is um i've been using i've been using marmot a lot i was a power user for a while because i
used it exclusively to chat with my agents oh you're gonna like what i've been working on but but but
it's all one-on-one chats yes yes that's the easy one that's a really easy one yeah so so and actually
marmot the way we've got to build white noise now works really well for one-to-one chats for very long
periods of time yeah all shiny problems because because um yeah i mainly used pika and um i i used
it for for a couple weeks like exclusively yeah because for me it worked more reliable than nip 17
it was just the most reliable thing and um and and so my my question is kind of like is there
is there a trade-off you can make let me say like two more sentences and i talked about this i talked
about this with justin a little bit it's like to me kind of the goal of like perfect privacy
makes less and less sense or like perfect encryption everything the bigger the group gets like in a
2 000 people group someone's a fan just assume it's public basically yes i know it's like i mean i i'm
being extreme now but it's like there's at least like five fats and three spooks and like two russian
spies and yes yep like just just be and and there's someone who is a streamer or something and has to
chat open and streams the whole chat history to twitch 24 7 and all those kind of things yep
yeah you know like you just have to assume that you have to assume and so so talk to me about your
thoughts in regards to that we from like one-on-one chats to like 2 000 people group size yeah i mean
like mls says you can go up to groups of hundreds of thousands and i think uh like you said really in
the actual yeah mathematically whatever that's possible but operationally that's just not how it works
like privacy degrades very quickly with the size of the group um and so i think there are ways that
you can um fall back to simpler systems and i think that's really smart and i think as we develop this
better we'll find like okay where are the limits here that actually kind of make more sense um you
know there's also aspects of the mls protocol there's like mls lite which is coming out soon which
helps you run larger groups with much less overhead for most participants
like what's the what's the magic sauce there so the magic sauce is that you have you know the
there are a set number or some number of um users in the group that have the full state and those are
the only users that can actually uh change the group's makeup or like evolve the group state but everybody
else still gets enough information that they can decrypt messages and encrypt messages so they basically
have the message keys but they can't they don't look at the full like member tree and they can't verify
the full member tree either they can just go okay i can send and receive messages in this group
interesting um and in in regular mls that hierarchy would be flat basically the hierarchy is flat yeah
mls doesn't actually have a concept of admins or anything like that that was something we layered
in on top um interesting okay yeah like any any full member of a group can do anything they want
because in um oh yeah that's actually the right way i don't think it matters but let's go there sure
um because i'm um it sounds kind of like a very sane approach to me because
in most systems that are that have widespread use the person who creates the group is automatically
the admin right like signal that's what we've done that's how we defaulted and it's kind of a very
natural yep way of doing things can you in mls light can you then um promote someone to an admin
yeah yeah of course you just need to send them the full state okay uh and so and like that's the way
all mls groups work is that like everybody has the full state right now which means that everybody can
verify that yeah these are the actual members and you know this is the this is what the full view looks
like yeah um you know the way we've done admin stuff up until now is a little clunky we're moving to a
newer concept in mls which is called uh app components which are a way to sort of uh destructure
these like big extensions into really small little pieces and that gives us the ability to like stack
all these things together as like features okay and so the feature becomes really small and thin and
really you know specific to what it's trying to do and you can use those to negotiate group
capabilities yeah and so if pika or whatever client you know because sort of defunct but
whatever client you know that implements this say they don't support all the features white noise
does if i go to create a group with that person i can see in their key package like uh it's great
right we're gonna go right to the construction you you you clip onto microphones and there's like
construction work everywhere there's always how it works straight away like leaf blowers just appear out of
nowhere and people with power tools start to run to you power washers you just have to
you just have to power through there is no other way okay so yeah back to the point like
it basically gives us the ability to get like capability negotiation so you've got you know one
client that doesn't support all these features the key package that was created by that client shows
hey these are the features we support and if i'm on white noise and i want to add you
i see that in your key package and i go okay the group i'm going to create will only support these
subset of features that we both can do and that then is like okay great we now have a group that works
so you announce what features you support exactly and that's the whole point of the key package system
yeah which has also been a really big learning like we made those you know normal events in the beginning
and that was a stupid idea it should have been replaceable from the start but okay um you know
you need these like these key packages that are client specific because if you have multiple clients
they have to support different things or you know whatever it is okay um yeah yeah
okay okay so it is that makes sense there's still a lot of elegance to mls i think it's it is very
complicated but i've finally had my head around it it only took two years yeah um but it is quite
elegant in a lot of ways it's kind of a in other ways it's quite uh it's like a bit of a blunt tool
because of that required ordering because of how heavyweight the whole system is in terms of how
much data you have to move around if you want to have the full tree yeah um on every client yeah i think
i think the the the the issue kind of is or the the paradox you're running into and i think justin i
hit briefly on it um like at least at least in theory we did i think yeah we talked a lot of other
shit and we weren't always super accurate with everything but it's basically nostr is designed to
be a broadcast system and and so so kind of you just you blast everything everywhere uh-huh and
and with private communications that's not necessarily beneficial right correct and so that's part of
the issue especially if you have a large shared state right like you don't even want to blast it
everywhere in the first place right and and and so so so kind of share your thoughts around that kind of
that uh paradoxical um setup that we have now using and it's it's it's not only for for doing mls on
also it's for many other things doing anything anything private basically um i mean it's a fundamental
tension right it's um you're right it's a broadcast system rather than a uh access controlled system yeah
um and so i think that means that effectively anything you want to do that's properly access controlled
you have to start thinking about uh you know what are the risks in you know in this how much does the
metadata actually matter um to an observer or an attacker yeah um and and then you know act accordingly
like if you really want a properly private thing you need to run your own relays and that means you're
actually just running a centralized server yeah and that's kind of my issue because the same
it's a it's a different topic entirely but it it fits in the in the same category in the sense that we
have this relay soon now yeah we have auth relays and we have right trust relays and we have like
completely personal relays and all these different relay lists and we have like yep you know profile
only relays that only you go for kind zero and so on and so on and so and so so my point is kind of
and and also like community relays they are really big right that's that's what i was was getting at
where it's like okay this is the community relay and it's not not actually a relay in some sense it's
the central server of the community and you have the relay feed and it's it acts like a forum for the
community right and so on right and to me kind of that you know like i the i take issue calling this
thing still a relay right right i also do this is why i never liked 29 relays i was like this is dumb
this is just a server it's it's just kind of i think we'll go here then we're we're almost we're
almost in the beautiful garden we'll we won't get run over by tram
so so um yesterday the discussion about uh pablo's terrible serial killer thing
throw him under the bus as often as possible we love you pablo
oh man you know no like to give pablo uh the credit you know if you if you ship 2500 projects
you'll have two or three that are a little bit yeah you know a bit wobbly
sensible no but it's it's that was my main point to cali because he really wants to have that for
for the cashew stuff yeah because that's obviously the issue right now with nip 60 right nip 61 you
don't know what you don't know exactly and it's it's it's it's precisely the same issue you have the
proof some are lost and so on and you have your cashew balance basically and it's just one day you
look and it's 120 sets and the other day you look and it's like 50 sets yeah it's like what happens
and then you look again it's 300 sets you know like there can be positive surprises as well i think
your metaphor of changing your pocket is probably exactly it's like oh whatever and the pocket as
a hole and sometimes stuff drops out and then you find change under the couch again like that's just
how it works it's just how it works and i like it i actually kind of like this in some sense because
like if you play around with it it's kind of clear that you shouldn't put serious money in it
like it's like some sets here and there and so on it's just to play around and to yeah to well you
know experiment more or less and to make this really work again just like in your use case you need to
have change events you need to have strict ordering of events right so that you can make sure that your
whole balance is there yeah and in your case that the whole group state remains exactly and like you
know the i am coming around more and more to this idea that like we really need to look at um
nostril relays as a thing that makes it unstoppable and like that unstoppable property is based on the
fact that it's completely commodity you can just dump stuff in the direction yeah you can't ever be
quite sure that you've got everything but of what's there like you're gonna find what you can find from many many
sources and that's going to be good enough for most things that you need to do yeah um and when it comes
to cryptography that doesn't you break all sorts of stuff that way and the only way to fix that really
is again like we talked about before you've got to say okay i'm going to trade off the um
unstoppability of this for something that's less unstoppable uh and it's like degrees then of okay how
how centralized do i need to go to make this work and and the point i was trying to make to
to kelly to some degree is that to to me like intuitively in some way this is a centralized force
relying on on chained events basically it's it's just it depends on how far back do you need to go
like because because you build up this state more or less you can't it's unacceptable it's it's
completely unacceptable that a quarter or half or a third of the chain is missing for many use cases
for many years yeah not for all of them but for many yeah for yours it's different again like we talked
you you you probably can throw away most of the history yep and depending on on the system like
maybe it's okay if if only a few people have the full state and all those kind of things yep but for
we talked about for example um edits yeah and rubble brought up um video edits and how they are
chained together and how this is also a chain of events and so on yep and you can't do deltas without
the full exactly exactly it's not and that's what i think what what was why phf was so angry about
edits being introduced to kind ones because you have immediately this problem that you need to
get all the events of the past to you know have the correct chain of edits and all those kind of
things yeah and so um to me the beauty of nostr and the relay system is the beauty to me the the beauty
in part is precisely that there is no global that there is no global state and stuff can disappear and
and reappear and i mean one one of the quotes in uh in bitcoin is basically you know notes can
can uh join and leave the network at will yes and with nostr relays for me it's similar like if a
relay is offline or unavailable maybe there's a little bit of data missing but like who cares you
know exactly and i mean i think i'm with you on that i'm like i am staunchly on this side of the line
i understand that i can make a coordinator and make this work easy yeah and that's not i'm not
interested in that yeah the problem i'm trying to solve is can we do this in a actually decentralized
way where we don't have to count on any of the relays existing yeah and i mean we have to be able to
like let's actually go back and stay in the green um so you want to solve it in a pure way basically
which is which is which is way way harder and but then you you will eventually maybe not possible
i think we have to accept that that might be the case that yeah we have to go over the line to make
this work unless you unless you kind of introduce the special types of relays that only allow writes
if you point back to previous events exactly exactly so and and the relay acts as like the central
sequencing server right that you'll need for these kind of use cases right i mean that might be a
trade-off that we are ultimately forced to make yeah i'm not ready to accept that yet and and i think
a lot of people a lot of people have told me this over the last two years look you just need to have
this sequencer or coordinator i'm like if we wanted to not solve the problem we're trying to solve yeah
that that does it but yeah that's not what we're trying to do here yeah um all right all right okay so so
so that's where we at right now that's your and you're still you're still unsure whether um you
would adopt a serial killer relay type solution i mean i wouldn't yet i wouldn't yet at all um because
kelly is very keen like i think he's building on it right now yeah he's been trying to convince me of
this for a while yeah um and i'm like nope nope nope nope nope okay um but i mean look i the way that
i'm kind of looking at it right now is i feel like if we could if we can get that state machine working
so that maybe once a month and all the groups that you're in you hit this screen you open a group and
it's like hey we saw you somehow got out of sync we automatically re-knitted you might be missing a
few messages in that break but you're back in the group and everything can continue going forward if
that happens once a month to you i would say okay we've got a system that is good enough for
almost all use cases of this and on what would this depend on would this depend on connectivity or
would this also depend on group size and other factors it depends on everything um i think you
know with smaller groups obviously it should almost never happen yeah um it's very simple in larger
groups it gets much more complicated but i still think we can get it to you know eventually small number
of times where that happens so worst case would be really large groups in places with very bad
connectivity exactly yeah with lots and lots of ads and removes and yeah yeah but like group state
changes not just messages like if you're just doing messages and no group state changes that's trivial
because those messages can arrive out of order they can arrive they can not arrive it doesn't matter
that doesn't change anything and you're never going to de-sync because you didn't get a normal
application message yeah okay i see i see yeah i guess we'll we'll we'll find lots of these things out as
we as we move along yeah um what has me bullish though is that in general for me right now multiple
things are working and i mentioned before um when i was uh talking about using marmot to talk to my agents
and so on um that worked flawlessly and i have to say if your relay if you know what you're doing in
terms of your relay setup nip 17 works really well as well that's true for this kind of use case i mean
you have to trade off the forward secrecy and of course compromise doesn't have doesn't have any of
that there are no solutions there's only trade-offs doesn't have any of that but i just want to point it
out because i i think like even most power users use telegram to chat with their openclaw right
you know yeah and so check out the openclaw nip 17 plugin fabian built that originally oh cool yeah
i actually didn't know that existed no it's awesome and i i added some features to that um because
what people really like in telegram is like the instant responsiveness yes and uh the nip 17 plugin
has it as well can it it does stream like um not streams but it will do emoji reactions okay on the
chat message just depending on what it does like there's a shaka once it's received yep for and then
like depending on thinking or tool tool call it will use different emojis nice and so you can watch the
emojis come thing yeah it's okay it's still doing stuff so i just uh nvk nerds named me a little bit
uh with his agent noise thing he's built this you know he wants to be able to use white noise to talk to
an agent on a you know remote box and uh so i was like well i'm playing around with this version two
stuff like let me use an app component let me build a um you know quick streaming tech streaming
thing yeah and so now uh i've got an app that runs and i can you know ping a claw or you know it's
basically just a box with a you know clawed or a codex on it and it starts to just stream text back
in awesome and the way it works is it you know it sends a first message going hey i'm about to stream
some text here's the quick server you're gonna connect to um stream the text and it just starts
showing up and then at the end it sends an anchor at the at the bottom going here's the full transcript
replace all that crap yeah awesome and it works amazingly well yeah it's really really fun and the
reason why i want to point this out is because the the why all of this is interesting is um all of it
relies on cryptographic identifiers which means if you set up an open call or whatever you don't need
to get like 15 different phone numbers and like a new sim card and right like create new signal and
whatsapp accounts and all this kind of yep bs that everyone then has to go hey here's a cli for this
thing called white noise yeah use it and uh ping me a message when you're done and that's how i set it
up with pika as well and also my nip 17 setup like once you once you have an agent going it's just like
here's the plugin here's the repo dm me when you're done yeah and it works and it works like it does
everything that's everything yeah installs the thing and then you receive an usdm and you're off to the
races yeah and same for you know like a dm on white noise or and i mean the other thing is like having
the ability to just spin up all these different identities in a messenger for whatever use case you
want is actually a really big deal like it's uh none of the other tools out there allow you to do this
yeah and my setup right now is and and i think it i think it's actually a bigger deal than than is
talked about right now um because because i'm yeah it's everything's dangerous the the um the fact that
i use cryptographic identities only allows me to create one agent per project yeah and so i just
you know i have whatever bitcoin resources and nostril resources and and boris and like all my little
projects yep and i can they all have end pubs of course and the end pub is the end pub of the project
and if i need to do a feature or a bug fix or whatever i just dm this this thing i just dm
i just send a dm to the project yes yeah and the project has its own identity it's such a natural
way of doing things it's so awesome yeah and like i you know like it's no crossed wires like that's
the thing about agents like you as long as you keep a session on a single thing it makes total sense
and the agent doesn't get confused and you're in a single session and you tell an agent to go work on
another project no and also like in a system like openclaw and so on and now we have all these memory
systems and so on it's like the memory and the history builds up precisely just for the main
specific knowledge for this one system yep and and to me it's the best i found like because i played
around with having multiple personas like a researcher and the core it's all bullshit yeah i agree i agree
it's like i basically strip back to the most simple agent harness possible i'm like just it needs to be
basic just let the model shine through it and yeah yeah and to me the the important unlock was like do
do have like one closed system per project basically yep and that's that works really well yeah and
cryptographic identity yeah it nails it like yeah yeah so there's lots of stuff going on there and i
mean i was i was actually excited when i saw nostr as one of the default options in openclaw yep and
excitement lasted for about two seconds because then it was like okay it's nipple four yeah who did that
and i think it's also half broken you know like it's of course it is nothing works nostr of course it
and so i i feel like we came a long way from nipple four you know like you know like i was saying
earlier i kind of shifted the thinking around this from being like the most private thing to being
much more on the permissionless unstoppable side because yeah i mean the other thing that's
massive everywhere now is the whole kyc of the internet and yeah sure this just sidesteps all
of that you know they're they can come with kids so much yeah do you want do you want because i just
i love terrorists i hate kids because i love terrorists you want to throw like 12 year olds on the
internet and the first thing they do is like shoot people and download of course absolutely dark
markets definitely yeah yeah 100 everyone has to scan a password and give a blood and and the
blood and urine yeah to to to go online that should be obvious yes why do you hate kids so much exactly
yeah oh man it's uh it's funny because i mean we laugh because that's all we can do but still i mean
it's one of those things it's insane it's totally insane and the only way to fight that as we know with
bitcoin and lots of other systems like this is just to build something that is actually unstoppable yeah
um and i think if we do this messaging stuff correctly yeah okay it might not be able to
withstand state level actors doing ip targeting and you know timing analysis on everything yeah but
i mean it's all about cost of attack right exactly if it allows people to create identities that will
disappear those identities there's no server to shut down there's no server that law enforcement can come
and be like give us all your logs we're like we don't have any yeah there's the github it's in my t
exactly have fun yeah it's it's that came up in a different discussion that i will not bring up now
but plausible deniability actually matters it's a really and if you can if you can like also for
people that run vpns and all those kind of things when you can truthfully say i don't have any user
data i don't have anything to give you yes that's a big plus because if you're it doesn't matter what
it is even if it's like an irc server or like whatever like a discord server it doesn't matter what it
is once it gets big and important enough or controversial enough yeah someone will come
knocking at your door we just launched uh like the latest version of white noise came out last week
and it um has ios notifications finally and the reason it took so long is because we weren't going
to do it in a way that was going to give apple anything funnel everything and we i mean the notification
systems are you have to have a server that's the only server we run is a notification server and we
specifically built it around the idea that the notification server should have nothing yeah it should get
you know a couple of encrypted tokens just enough to turn around to apple and go send a push notification
to this token that's it yeah it doesn't save anything it doesn't have any logs it doesn't know where
it came from either um and so that's like another one of these little layers of things you don't think
about but are actually a big deal is you can't link all of you know everybody's communication to a single
identifier yeah yeah um yeah you don't you don't want to make it easier for the bad guys it doesn't even
matter who the bad guys are right it's like whether it's you know like one one man's terrorist is another
man's freedom fighter yeah and so whether whether the bad guys are your government your guys are the
other people people that want to hack you or right like actual well i think i was about to say what is
the government or actual criminals you know it doesn't really matter wait wait i mean one thing
like max loves to say uh is like it's all about increasing the cost of attack exactly as much as
possible yeah and that's that's all we're here to do basically it's just like hey we want to make this
super easy for anybody that could possibly need it for whatever purpose and we're gonna have to
accept that yeah some of those purposes might not be things we agree with yeah and it should also be
clear that nothing is ever 100 secure like it's again only only trade-offs like yeah and so much
you can look i mean there's nothing you can do to get around the government putting pegasus on your
phone yeah like if if someone wants your data that bad they're gonna get it yeah and so you know we
can't protect against all those things yeah yeah all right nice so tell me tell me what's next if
you if you may on the white mouse front where you at and what's what's on the roadmap and what's coming
in the next couple of months yeah i started a few weeks ago with this kind of blank slate of okay
we've been working on this a while we've faced a lot of hard things we've like worked our way
through a lot of problems but if we really started with a what have we learned what could we do
slightly differently or what could we change about it what would we do and what i've come out with is
you know that deterministic state machine kind of wrapped around the mls key agreement yeah um so that's
kind of the core part of how do we make this much more reliable there's a bunch of little changes
about you know key packages being replaceable which we've already you know done in marmot um
this app components thing so that we have much more flexibility in uh you know doing the
kind of setup of groups in ways that can work across lots of different clients and devices yeah
i think the other big piece of that work was decoupling nostr as the only transport mechanism
because if you think about it nostr for us is identity um it's the payload of what goes inside
the messages so what you actually see in the conversation and in marmot v1 let's call it it
was also you know very coupled to marmot you know relays being the only transport mechanism
i see i see and so i wanted to make that plug and play yeah and so identity obviously that's
pretty core like we're going to keep my you know nostr as the identity system yeah um the payloads being
nostr it's awesome because it gives us you know an already kind of defined schema of here's all the
different event types and yeah things that people want to know and you know exactly how to implement
and show what these things are transport though like who cares yeah it can be anything yeah and you
know all the jonathan's work on phipps i think is was a big catalyst here awesome um and so like
that's an easy thing to decouple yeah yeah i was about to bring up phipps and and how deep you dig into it
i really like it um i think it's really early so i'm just keeping a really close eye on it yeah um
you know i think it it also isn't like a perfect fit for what we're doing um because it's uh we'll
probably make your life even worse definitely in the short term we definitely would yeah yeah definitely
and i mean it's also assuming that you're like connected to the other side right in real time yeah
and so like it might work um but i guess the main thing for me now is like okay as long as the
architecture of the thing is set up such that you know the transport mechanism is negotiated like any
other feature you know you're like hey here's my key package i only support phipps or i only support
nostril relays or i support this and that and wi-fi and bluetooth direct and a bunch of other things
then you know you start to be able to compose the system okay on top of all that i think that's a
very interesting approach because in different situations you might be kind of forced to do that
like yeah like you know we're living in a time of like you know country-wide internet shutdowns and
all those kind of things and like having a fallback chain through those it's like hey use bluetooth if
you can yeah or use relays if you can but if you can't get any relays try bluetooth yeah um so i think
that stuff is really important and it's been really cool to see a bunch of other apps pop
up with clients that are interoperable with white noise and yeah other clis and web tools and yeah
yeah awesome because being able to actually test that like okay this just does work and it goes back
and forth across these different apps means it's again you're just giving people a bunch of backups
and a bunch of fallbacks and yeah i think the fact that justin was able to build pika in i don't
know like a couple days basically right that's a big success story yeah kind of and like the vector
guys like the the vector team have been like super excited about all this stuff and they've
built this really cool like you know kind of cypherpunk gaming looking interface awesome yeah
but like you know they were like they came to the community call last month and demoed doom
playing in a marmokers and i was like this is dope this is amazing that's kind of like we've made it
guys we can play doom if it can run doom then we're done like you know that's something yeah that's
something one of the demos in one of the last chords was uh playing free doom on an end site
served to be a phips and then it was like okay great we're finished our work here is done it works
but yeah i mean it's like it's cool to see lots of people kind of getting excited and going
okay we can we can make messaging things and and like there's also use cases like uh lee from bitcoin
jungle built this thing called tubester which is sort of a kid's youtube but the parents get to
decide who can see the kids videos nice and the permission ring around that is actually an mls group but
it's like not one you would recognize at all yeah but the you know the parents would like add somebody to
the group ah and then the interface just knows like okay i'm in five groups show all the videos from
those five groups mixed in on the timeline i so he he used this particular building block to
exactly have to build a permission system exactly exactly that's awesome so i think there's a bunch
of like fun use cases you can do like that that are quite different yeah awesome now it's gonna get
crowded and noisy a little bit how are we doing on time we have plenty we're good yeah all right you just
wanna just get into the the jungle of the people and maybe let's see let's see grab a coffee somewhere
yeah let's do it park in the middle down there might be good again though it's very like civilized and
quiet yeah yeah yeah what what do you say what if we what if we do one more one more ring around the
rosy and the green sure and then we'll see where we at and then we'll grab a coffee sounds good i think
that makes sense because i'm i'm when i'm walking in madeira then i have a natural timer because you just die
of heat stroke and i know precisely when like 90 minutes are over and here i'm completely maladjusted
like it's bright all the time it's like 19 or 20 degrees and everything's different it's very nice
i think it's one of the nicest times of the year to to be in oslo it is absolutely um yeah speaking
of being in oslo um um are we allowed to talk about aos stuff that's on yeah we're allowed to talk
about fill fill me in on on all those kind of things because we we already you already mentioned
like apps popping up bluetooth uh using bluetooth as a transportation layer um i mean but chat is
obviously yes um to stand out the app the app to talk about yep in that regard but um how close are you
to what kelly is working on and basically how do those things interrelate would be my question or would
would be something that interests me because we already talked about the ecash cashew use case for
the event chains right like a very similar problem and basically the you know what happens if the
internet shut down shut down and you only have bluetooth available and those kind of things right
so what are your thoughts on all the different projects and where they're at and how they might
like how how can they play together or what are the learnings from each that helped the others yeah i mean i've
got uh limited detail on you know the intricacies of bitchat and things but i think the coolest part
about bitchat is it does kind of take a a very opinionated stance that okay you don't need the
internet one two like how long these chats last like they're kind of ephemeral in most cases yeah you
can dm and like but kind of you're not expecting to be able to come back and like find two years worth of
chats right yeah um which which i think is a feature another bug i i also actually agree with that and
especially for this sort of use case it's like you care about what's going on on the ground in a
bluetooth mesh range of you yeah then it doesn't matter what you know you're like disappearing messages
baked in yeah in a sense yeah yeah yeah so you know i think um i think the really cool thing about
bitchat is it did sort of prove that like there are these very narrow uh use cases that really matter
yeah in certain circumstances and only in those circumstances really yeah there's very little
reason that you and i have to use bitchat on a normal basis yeah other than being at a conference
and having fun yeah the only reason is like if you're in the conference and the wi-fi is overloaded
right something like that yeah um i mean another one would be like you're at a music festival and you
know there's no internet yeah and you like want to bounce across the festival to your friends somewhere
yeah um but you know like i love the fact that we're exploring all of those things and like kind
of pushing things out quickly and seeing what people are doing with them like bitchat was jack's thing
he pushed it out there kelly picked it up into the android app really quickly yeah and pushed that out
there and then it got started being picked up by you know movements and yeah protests and like kelly shared
it's like yeah you can see where something's going on just by looking at the geolocated uh downloads
oh something is happening in madagascar yeah exactly let me check the news yeah um yeah so i think like
bitchat is a super cool example of that i think you know the aos project in general uh i've been
like kind of thrilled with like it's um i think we kind of went into it i mean it's a year old
basically uh last year yeah it's still a baby demoed this thing we built yeah vibed over a week or you
know in in switzerland and like vibe coding was totally new to everybody at that point like the
models were kind of crap the tool we built kind of we de-dossed ourselves immediately and it went down
like you know all the normal things um but it's you know like i think we've grown from that point of
okay what the hell are we here for to a system of like how do we connect a bunch of builders working
in the space yeah how do we like help you know what are the shared things that everybody has to
deal with and like how can we maybe help you know grease the wheels on that stuff um and how can we
like keep experimenting and like quickly going okay this is dead end like drop that project whatever move
on or on you know in my case it's like i've got space and time to go really deep on can we actually
make this work yeah uh without being like okay i've got a really tight clock or you know it's just me
and i have to like figure it all out myself yeah yeah what what are you most excited about right now
outside of flight noise because you're more plugged in than most i think it's a fair question to ask you
yeah i mean i think the most interesting stuff is i mean from a technical point of view it's it's all the ai
stuff uh and i you know i've written zero lines of code since december like by hand i have read many
lines of code but increasingly or decreasingly so it's gotten to the point where i barely review lots
of stuff um now mostly that's because like the deep kind of crypto stuff on white noise is like pretty
baked already so we're not changing things there but um if you look at the curves it's very clear
where this is going yeah the models are going to continue getting better uh maybe at a decreasing
rate but maybe not um the job of software engineers has really kind of you know there used to be the
spectrum from uh product idea architecture of the technical thing the actual implementation which
is this like a long band in the middle it was extremely costly and time consuming and then like
at the other end the actual product hits the hands of users and what are the users doing
with it and how do you react to that to like go back to the beginning yeah and the feedback loop is
like so insane right now the middle is gone yeah like the bet the people that are going to be that
are going to win the hardest in this space are the people that are really good at high level architecture
yeah because the models still get that wrong often you have to know what you're doing you have to know
what you're doing the model can do some thinking for you but but by far not all of it and it's like
the way i always describe it is like they they always you know the bell curve meme yes and they always
the the the mount mid curve yes has the most gravity like they'll always gravitate you towards the
middle of the big architecture which everyone should know like the middle of the bell curve is the
most insufferable person yes you don't want to be there like if you do if you want to do something
really simple like left side yeah left left side of the bell curve the model all like you you will
have to fight with the model to do the stupid thing and if you and same on the very right side of the
bell curve something super intricate yeah you have to fight with the model again it's like no there's
a reason why i want to do it in this complicated way don't cheat do not mess around yeah exactly yeah
um so i think that's like but it has like very much collapsed the middle and yeah and i think honestly
like there's kind of no point for you to read the code anymore it's gotten good enough because
in the beginning all you're wanting to do is get the thing in the hands of people so that you can then
start the loop i mean there's people on nostor right now that are building android apps without
having an android device because they just have agents running yeah and they publish to sap store
and it's just like whatever the user feedback that comes in on nostor they'll just make changes right
they don't have an android device themselves they don't have an emulator nothing just like build a little
game and just like you can download it from sap store there yeah see if it works yeah i mean that
just shows you how far we've come yeah like that's just insane i agree that's so cool so i guess like
to to answer your question it's not really the like oh what harnesses and like what's your actual
workflow it's much more the higher level like okay now my job is just literally thinking about what do i
want the thing to create and why and like what do i what do i want the experience for the user using
the thing to feel like and okay then what is a good way to do things what is the same way to good things
and what is like a yeah you know insane foot gun way of doing things yeah yeah exactly and uh so yeah
i just you know way too many projects going on like way too many kind of where are you on the
um ai psychosis spectrum pretty deep pretty deep what's the first thing you do when you wake up
uh i walk past my office from my bedroom to go downstairs to get the kids up and i always stop
in and go prompt yeah that's why i'm making the porridge that's why i'm asking yeah i'm like i know
something is spinning upstairs and now that everything remote controls to your phone just my laptop stays
open and i yeah i'm happy to go for a walk in the middle of the day and just be like oh yeah keep
it going oh yeah i'll go for a swim with the kids like yeah no problem yeah oh yeah yeah it's strange
it's strange how how quickly it changed as well i mean again that's what exponential curves do they
just slap you in the face yeah and um yeah it's a strange new world it's a strange new world it's been
challenging to get everybody on the team sort of believing that uh that conviction could be yeah shout
out again yeah there you go there you go but he he caught the bug as well i've heard right like he
we everybody guys you guys were able to convince him that it's not um like that there is actually
something useful there that will make you more powerful and yes yes and and like i see where
people are coming from that are still like no i must understand it deeply myself and i need to make
sure that it's using the right patterns i get that but at the same time i'm like but it's obsolete you're
talking with someone who wrote like three blog posts on how much he hates slop yeah and there is
definitely software slop and design slop out there there's tons but you know what there's plenty of
slop made by humans oh sure yeah i mean sure there's tons of human slop that's how we ended up with the
slop in the first place i think right again back to the middle of the bell curve correct it's like
that's how these things work most of the stuff that the as we're reading was slop yeah they were learning
on slop yeah yeah all right all right yeah interesting so so what's your what's your
current setup in terms of of development if i may ask like how does your development workflow you look
like so i actually use uh the codex mac desktop app and the claude mac desktop app more than i use the
terminal anymore because you can just get more information density in there okay like i can see
loads of sessions down the side yeah rather than like trying to see all these tiny tiled windows and
multiple tabs across the terminal i just find it easier to view it that way um and i yeah i've just like
literally max 20 on all the services because it's by far the cheapest yeah um and i probably have
i don't know seven or eight things going on five or six projects in any one given time yeah uh and it's
just yeah i feel like that's kind of normal right now that's kind of if you're if you're um like most
people i talk to that have serious projects that are like high output people that's basically it's always the
same story and i actually like i said earlier i spend almost no time on trying to like
tune and tweak my workflows i'm just like nope that's good enough like yeah the output is not
going to be determined by which skills i have uh you know in the broad strokes of it like maybe i'll get
a couple percent different out of it but like it really comes down to maybe let's go this way before
we got shot up there yeah there's like a small army standing up there there's just the the it seems to
be the guard of the castle of the palace rotating let's not get in trouble we're wrecking tourists uh photos
do you have any thoughts on kind of the next whatever like six to 12 months in terms of um how to use ai
more privately how to use it more locally those kind of things that's actually the thing i'm really
really excited about the whole ai thing i do think we're on a curve now where the local models are going
to catch up insanely fast yeah i mean the latest high-end macbook pro yeah it's already like better than
you know an nvidia like giant workstation from a year ago um and so i think we're we're on a trajectory
now where very soon you're gonna run lots of local models without even knowing it because you're just
embedded in products yeah uh you're gonna run a really powerful local model on a machine somewhere
probably your normal laptop or something yeah and hopefully you're going to be able to talk with
that through you know something like white noise and that's just going to be how you do most things in
your life like i've got four or five open claws that run on different boxes um they are sys admins and
little brain things and they run servers for me and yeah they have their own git accounts and github
accounts and their own you know keys and they can ssh to different stuff and yeah um and so i think
for developers and builders you know whatever it's amazing like it's the best possible world um i never
have to think about the implementation details it's just like yeah idea do okay circle back let's you know
adjust and keep going yeah and i don't think people it's going to get that as well you know my wife is
now like can you just get the can you just get the claw to like do the thing like here's a bunch
of tax documents that we need like annotated for the accountant and i'm like okay yeah just like
send them to me and i'll push it on you know yeah that's a good point that's a good point it goes way
beyond uh software development way beyond yeah yeah like way beyond like and that's actually the thing
that's been more helpful on those because it frees you away from all this like you know
bullshit busy work yeah uh and i live in italy so there's a lot of bullshit yeah yeah sure i mean
you know i think everywhere in europe there's a lot of yeah forms to fill out yes you you can't escape
it you can't escape it yeah no it's a brave you it's a brave new world it's it's one of the
interesting side effects that i experience right now that's why i hate slop so much is that kind of
online discussions degrade because basically people just use llms to let them write the tweets
and the articles and everything page you know blog posts you're like and there's a there's a massive
asymmetry um like there's always an asymmetry in terms of refuting bullshit takes like 100x the
effort and just spouting bullshit but the llms make it so much worse yeah and so yeah i really appreciate
kind of the smaller in-person events i also yeah i was about to say like real life stuff i think is
actually the other piece that i'm quite excited about like the fact that you can just go out and
you know ping an agent to keep working on the thing it frees you up in terms of not needing to be in
front of the laptop exactly yeah exactly i think pablo said this a while back like his goal last year was
you know to spend a vastly you know fewer number of hours in front of the keyboard i mean that's why we are
outside walking and not sitting in a studio and that's why i built the vibe line for myself exactly
because once those things started working um i realized okay why do i need to type i'm just gonna
ramble into a microphone that i have always with me because it's my phone i also never type anymore
i do everything via voice to my agents let's go yeah let's go single key down and i just start talking
like a year low a year ago or one and a half years ago or so when i came up with the vibe line
i felt so alone everyone basically called me retarded for like you know just speaking into
the phone i thought i was like this is a good idea i can't wait to have a local model so i have to
send it to open ai my voice every time but it also it depends on what you do like i still i still type
obviously for for like highly iterative things and so on yep but most of like in the sovereign
engineering context for example most of the the demo day projects that i did and those kind of things
it's just about the idea and just kind of get the idea right and the easiest way for me is just to
talk about it for like five minutes 10 minutes 15 minutes just have a monologue about what i want
to build yeah and then like the whole that the slop of me talking is going to be fed into the machines
and something you know approximately okay it's going to come out there's like two modes i've noticed
there like one is um that which actually works surprisingly well sometimes even in like the
vagueness because when you speak versus you know type like very different you type at a pace that
you're thinking can be like quite precise yeah and so you're choosing your words properly and carefully
and you're it's very structured yeah when you talk often you're like stop in the middle you're like
just friendly oh what the hell yeah it's not gonna work even yeah i don't i don't know maybe we should
talk about it yeah but it doesn't but it doesn't matter yeah and it somehow pieces it together and
it's like okay i think you want to do this let's try it and then we'll come back and like circle back
and see if it yeah you're like great perfect thank you yeah yeah super yeah no it's and like although
you know the parakeet models and stuff means that you can do that without having to beam your voice
everywhere else and you know it works great yeah yeah it's exciting times it's exciting times it's it's i'm
i'm getting like i'm always of two minds for those kind of things you know i i tend to be very
optimistic and like also hyper bullish on things with one of my many faults i don't know i don't know
but but um now it's it's kind of um yeah i'm i'm i'm kind of where should i even start um those tools
are so powerful that you can also do a lot of damage if you just build things i would say in
the wrong way and we talked about this a lot in the sovereign engineer context like pre pre vibe
coding even but but vibe coding happened very early on in uh like with the second one or i don't know
the slide in sovereign one build it the right way yeah don't go to jail exactly exactly exactly yeah
build it right and don't go to jail that's the the two kind of cornerstones you know
yeah if you build it right you won't go to jail yeah yeah hopefully hopefully hopefully yeah but
but it's very hard it was always very and it still is it still is very hard for me to explain
what i mean by kind of building right and we talked about this in the past kind of like you know
building in the spirit of bitcoin all these like washy kind of things you know like nostril to me is
built in the spirit of bitcoin very clearly you know where it's just like it's like completely
permissionless cryptographic identities the nodes don't matter too much they can't go online and offline yep no
centralizing force like those kind of things like it should decentralize over trying to figure out how
to like coordinate yeah people's ideas are yeah with all the problems that come with it but it's
basically like if it works then it should decentralize over time and we should build like you you should
have basically an adversarial mindset and and and think through all these little details and just play
the clock forward in your head like five or ten years exactly and i think like bit torrent did this really
well you know like there's a bunch of projects the internet itself did this really well because it was
built in an adversarial like highly adversarial environment it's like nuclear war yes we need
something that is a communication system that still works if half the planet is destroyed nuclear war
yes so that's the mindset where the internet came from yeah and and i think it's the right mindset to
build to build systems that are that aren't brittle yeah and i think the world right now is very brittle like
both like from the social social economic political standpoint exactly but also doesn't matter which
perspective yes brittle everything's brittle and and that's that's in large parts why i'm interested in
robust and secure systems because they are non-brittle systems right and i think we'll need all the
non-brittle systems we can get if we want to rejuvenate society at a large scale and and like
make sure that the civilization doesn't collapse you're right though like on every single aspect
you can look at farming agriculture like food yeah everything is super brittle and that's also why
like a lot of bitcoiners turn themselves into regenerative agriculture people and a lot of the
region farmers turn themselves into bitcoins because it's the same idea it's like oh wow this will
actually work forever yeah it's like a closed loop system that works forever just like regenerative
agriculture and so on i'm not even sure where i wanted to go this with this train of thought
i think i think i do give me a second but now we're here let's break the law yeah
jaywalking i always find that funny which countries that's actually illegal in and which
countries don't get let's go we can do it we can do it you're not gonna hate us
they're like very oh yeah we're in a very polite very civil very polite society
the italians on the other hand yeah it's exactly the countries where i usually come from and reside in
like you don't want to jaywalk right taking your life into your hands um no i think like your point
is i started somewhere and then i lost her is like building it right on nostr means yeah thanks thanks
what does it mean to build it right what does it mean to build it right unstoppable and and but it's
not only that it's not only that because um and it relates to my coding because now everyone
traditionally to build it right or to build it really wrong both of them were very hard
yes like to fuck something up massively because you needed to be so competent it took such a long
time you spend a lot of time and energy and money to fuck it up badly yeah that usually doesn't happen
like someone who's competent will be part of the team or like part of the financing group or whatever
it'll tell you look actually we shouldn't do it this is a bad idea guys and now
now with all the tools which is discussed you can have a really bad idea and vibe it into existence
in like an afternoon yeah and i worry about that on the other side you can also if you have a deep
understanding and want to build it right like i think again like bitchat is a great example it's just
like you know nostrils identities bluetooth as transport and like let's go yeah and you can build this out
very quickly that's incredibly powerful and why i want to wanted to bring this up is because i feel um
yeah let's not go into the concert maybe
so funny right construction and concert if you don't wear microphones you'll never notice this
you start wearing microphones and everything is loud everywhere all the time
but but what does it mean to build it right is really hard to transfer because you're cursed with
like you have the curse of knowledge you don't even know what you know and explaining it to newcomers
like 20 something javascript kids that are that happen also happen to be nostril developers yes you
know like i made this joke yesterday already no no offense hazard you know yeah no but there is i don't
even mean hazard hazard is fantastic and really really smart and really like a deep thinker and all those
kind of things but we have many people that build nostril clients that don't have like 10 15 years of
expertise are 20 something and don't have a cryptography background or anything like that
and i worry that we're at the point right now where like if any gray birds are are listening out there
please come back please educate the younglings yeah please join the crowd so like i've you know
i think having kids has made me think a lot about this recently of like the education system and like
what with the speed at which the entire world is changing with ai like what is their schooling even
like or is it going to be useful at all yeah like what do they actually need in order to like be
able to function properly and whatever is going to be in front of them yeah and i think a lot of it is
is that is like how do you think through an idea and like both steel man the idea from the other side
and like understand the implications of second and third order yeah rather than just being like we can
do a thing let's do a thing yeah you know without kind of thinking about it more and i think you know
to my mind that's a huge part of the problem with uh the political system now it's like completely built
around keep me in the seat and so i'll do the first order thing that makes the person immediately go okay
yeah and will not think about any other knock-on effects yeah yeah yeah and i think we i think
we have it on the tech side as well where it's just like you know like it's and and now now we're
at an interesting point because we kind of we brought social media to the world basically without
thinking too much about it correct and and social media turned into attention farming slot machines yep
basically yep and um now we see the side effects on the global scale in society that it wasn't the best
idea to do that just ah let's just around and see what happens yeah and now we're doing the same with
ai right but we're also we see then the okay we've seen that effect and now there's like the first
order thinking of i know we'll just kyc the internet and that'll fix it yeah exactly yeah yeah i mean we
already talked about the scan your passport and bring a stool sample yeah and everything yeah it's it's
kind of insane so so again i'll make the appeal to i'm actually very happy talking about fips um that the
discussions about mesh networks and building networking infrastructure that doesn't allow uh rely on dns
authorities or even ip addresses um brought him back from retirement basically like he was away from the
the bitcoin space for like seven years he's like bitcoin og and and he basically was like ah you know like
all this everything got too too noisy basically and so on and and the very this tech problem brought
him back and and he did wonders already just by being at the last cohort talking to the 20 something
people before he even did phips he started talking to me about uh white noise and marmot he gave me
so much yeah like deep insight into like okay the structure of the way you're doing things is going
to cause all of these sorts of things and then i'm like you're you're absolutely right yeah i don't
know yeah yeah he and i quote he thinks white noise is the most important project in the nostal space
which makes me really worried i'm like this is too much i can't take it ah you can take it i very much
appreciate it like i really appreciate it yeah yeah jonathan's great and yeah so i think we we we need more
of that we need the wise old elders that come down from the mountain and i do i mean i think the
apprentice model really needs to come back because apprenticing wasn't just about learning the skill
of doing the thing it was the the learning the philosophy of why we do the thing and the wisdom
that can't be transferred easily i think you can only transfer it with apprenticeship basically like
a lot of things yeah i think that's totally it's because you can't put it down on paper no like there's
a lot of stuff that that has to be lived experience basically like like why like because you will if
you're living in a first world western country um thinking about privacy and getting docs or those
kind of things that usually doesn't matter that much thinking about financial privacy thinking
about all those kinds of why should you care you're like i got a visa it's like work yeah exactly
i don't even carry my visa anymore and you don't have uh you know like i i was about to say you
don't even have a lot of inflation and so on but like everything has a lot of there's even there's
even that but but but if you haven't lived through those kind of issues you'll never understand why
um a private system might be important and why a resilient system might be important and so on
yeah and so i think yeah i think it's not optional yeah uh yeah it's gonna be interesting to see you
know the school system and everything is like vastly behind let's end on that very uh whatever that
is statue oh the statue mother giving birth is that it yeah what's going on here something like that
okay i like that we're approaching it from the back so we're really not sure yeah not sure
is there gonna be clothing involved or not we'll see how spread are the legs no it's fine it's fine
i think yeah i think it's okay no it's okay it's okay my mind was playing tricks on me yeah
all right yeah i'm i'm i'm all out of steam i think this is uh anything anything we missed anything
you want to hit on anything that's i don't think so we'll do it again we'll do it again again all
right hopefully the next time we'll be able to go okay we've either solved it or
okay what's on the agenda for tomorrow on the aos event i think the aos event sort of is wrapping
with kind of going over hackathon stuff and just kind of wrap up conversation are we going to talk
on change apps again or no hope not i want to talk i want to stop talking about that like it's just
it was actually good like i um for for everyone who who's not aware uh i talked to to alex yesterday
about on change ups and the the issues that might cause and so on he's going to go ahead and and
and just ship it anyway he's gonna do everyone he's gonna do everyone but but that's that's in part kind
of um what i mean when i say like it's so easy now to build stuff that if you don't if you don't
have a mental model of the full system in mind it will be very hard to think about the second and
third order effects and i tried to point it out on on ossern in writing and so on but it's also i think
it's a it's a it's a it's a losing battle people will just will people will like he's a proper
software guy people that are not proper software people will ship whatever they're gonna ship yep
and we'll see what happens and i'm i've always been a big believer in rec education so i'm the biggest
proponent of that's why i stopped orange billing i wrote i i start i tried to orange build people for
like 10 years and then i i wrote the dear family dear friends thing and i'm like i'm done like if
you ever need to know something about bitcoin just read this and don't come back to me before you read
this and i'm done i'm not going to talk about bitcoin yeah nothing yeah because i learned that maybe i used
to say like two percent are curious enough to learn about it i revised that number to 0.2 percent yeah
and the rest 99.8 percent are just gonna get wrecked in one way or the other yeah and that's how
you're slowly or fast yeah and i think yeah there's not much you can do about that i'm in the same boat
and i think on nostr it's similar i mean we i think we will have certain apps that use nostr
underneath that will get big but i think in terms of you know like literally rolling your own
and sac running your own relay all those kind of things it will be people on the margin that are
that have got the platform like three times in a row just like on the bitcoin side you get
debanked a couple times and actually i think that is precisely why nostr hasn't grown faster is
because we've been mostly absolutely fixated on keeping it pure on that side of you must roll your
own insect you must you know run your own relay you must use it in the precise pure way yeah but
like look at divine it's getting huge and like people don't even know they have an insect they're
just like cool i make videos this is great yeah yeah um and so i think at some point you have to
you can't fight that right like you have to just go okay i can give you as many points of uh places
you can bump into it and want to learn more for whatever reason makes sense to you in that moment
but that's all i can do yeah you know yeah i think we went through that on the bitcoin side as well
i mean there's a reason why coinbase is so big and so on you know it's just like you make it super super easy
and but the the worry with that of course is like if you abstract more and more things away you end up
with the banking system exactly and are you even holding bitcoin like you know on the coinbase case
definitely not and there's of course the degradations like there's the shades to that like there's
levels to the whole thing and i think on the nostril side it's similar that's why i brought up
and sank bunker for pablo uh you know an hour ago so uh which i i consider his his original sin basically
because like he explained it to me and i was like really okay so you want to build coinbase for nostr
that's what you want to do like that that's that's what you're describing to me basically
and he was like no no no no no and i'm like oh yeah yeah that's what's gonna happen abandoned and
yeah well but i again like this stuff will pop up like we'll we'll have we'll have a mix of all
those things and i think as far as the system allows you to use it in a self-souvern way i'm fine
with that yeah like as long as there's options and you get to make the choice that's fine yeah that's
all you can hope for yeah yeah so here's to hope yeah all right that was great yeah that was great
all right let's see if all that worked if i need to edit something like i'm gonna shoot myself
but if that's still going all fine great done