and that's it we're live yeah yeah I like this one the feature in this like you
press that thing and it just starts recording yeah you can set it you can you
can set it that every time you open it it just starts recording so I just I
just used it all the time yeah and the vi-blind us the rest yeah hopefully and
the clankers now now that I connected the vi-blind to the clankers yeah
ever since I did that yeah things really yeah I saw I saw the feed like you
know so it's pushing pushing pushing like everything is yeah not only that I
mean that's just the that's just the not the the dialogue output yeah you should
see my experimental software output okay like NAN that I showed like I missed
that one yeah but it literally was like using a voice prompt to brainstorm the
idea right using another voice prompt to go from the brainstorm to a to do list
basically right like an implementation plan yeah and then setting up a
cron jump that every 20 minutes tackles one of the to-do's and then it
builds up overnight right and I was able to kind of show a working prototype
on yeah I didn't want to set up I experimented with them I did the NIP 17 plug-in
for null claw and then I got deep into the ZIG ecosystem and I wasted an entire
months behind that thing I never set it up but and I didn't want to set up
open claw on my system so I never did that but now I have a VPS where I'm
going to set it up but that should work for zero claw just the same right yeah just
the cron jump so open claw is free like is open like you know like you can do
anything with it and that's why it's insecure and all of those things zero
claw tried to be very secure and that makes it unusable he's just kind of
it just didn't do anything so rapid prototyping or security pick one yeah yeah so
yeah and now I'm going to embrace the claw all right yeah yeah yeah it's but
it's gonna be more expensive now I mean yesterday yeah yeah yeah yeah and
thropic decided to fuck everyone yeah but you know there are these smaller
models cheaper models the Chinese ones they're extremely cheap and they're
good enough for tasks and agentic kind of thing maybe not do you know
actually in fact what you can do is you can still use codecs right so instead
of hooking up with the opus you hook it up with codecs yeah yeah and it's fine yeah I
was an opus maximalist until yesterday now I have to change my ways because I'm
basically broke right now yeah it's like it's it's just it's just insane we I
talked about this with Marty as well yeah that everyone subsidized right now
yeah and obviously like we all know that I mean yeah if you're a power user
then you're not gonna use yeah a paper queue or in route sir or because it's
just like it's it's gonna bankrupt you easily yeah we can we can do that but yeah
I'm bullish on local hardware like I'm bullish on running everything on your
own bare metal yeah so I'm I'm still waiting on the M5 McMan is to pull the
trigger yeah but I I might I might eat my words and just order an M4
McMan in tomorrow because I'm just yeah I'm I have a problem yeah I'm I'm an
addict yeah and someone took away by needle yesterday so I have an issue yeah
and some of the smaller models are this is what we were talking about it in
Yolo Plus Plus as well with a few people like the hardware is going to improve
and also the models are going to get smarter like dedicated models like
there's a agentic model only for tool calling yeah and you use that as your
first part of the pipeline and then and then it routes to a specific things
just like you have your pipeline right yeah open router has that already and
route star now has to do they have the the the routing model in the sense
yeah if something requires thinking yeah you're gonna use a thinking model if
something is very simple yeah you use a simple model yeah like null claw has
that I think open claw should have it as well I'm not sure I've not experimented
with that one yet yeah you can you can just use the routing model says your main
model and then you will have it it doesn't have it built in it has a model
tree basically in the sense that you have an agent and you can set like that's
your main model yeah and those are those five are your fallbacks yeah so if you
get rid limited or you run out of credits you you'll have a fallback yeah but
that's I think like my main suggestion is always to just do lots of
experimentation pick a pet project and play around with it a lot yeah because
then you'll figure all these things out like how to best yeah use the
certain harness and how to like what what is one model good at and another one
yeah sucks it and so yeah I moved away from Opus a while back because it just
never worked for me like it would completely lie if yeah I did that and all the
test pass and all the test says it's like yes true you know like yes we have
passed but it hallucinated all the time yeah and it hallucinates all the time
codex on the other hand I never give instructions by the way that's why I think
why I work well with Opus right because I always ask questions I only ask
questions right if I like did we do that and I always use the Royal Wii yeah did
we implement that did you look at that did you double check everything I took a
leaf from you and like you should see my conversations with codex because
codex I feel like I can respect it and so I do respect it because it actually
dust off and it's like oh please can you did you do that did we do this and
like you know like what did we do back then like what were the decisions here
and what yeah let's start recording our decisions you know and so we can
refer to them later yeah it was funny when the when the the leak kept in the
couple days ago oh yeah and people found what's it called is it Olympus I always
mix up the way it's my toss muthus exactly yeah I'm closer now yeah muthus
that's right yeah and people figured out that you know they have they
actually treat certain code words in a special way because you mentioned you
know please and yeah but especially on a negative sign like if you say what the
fuck you what the fuck you know you fucking retard that doesn't work and so it's
like yeah it will actually react differently it was like you so I think the
learning from that leak is you should really swear at your models yeah if
something goes wrong yeah that really helps yeah and yeah that like I don't
know because even with codex for that for that matter I think me and Justin
were talking about this like while they they're working and they go they have a
plan like it's not a good idea to have questions in the same session yeah
separate session absolutely and then you know like that is where you do
all that stuff and even if you want to know I always start
I logical I always build up contacts with questions yeah and before I
implement something I always write the implementation plan yeah and then a new
session builds the thing yeah yeah like it's it's it's it's the same like
again I talk with Pablo about this a bunch in the 10x context yeah you have to
rebuild the same structures that we humans land yes landed on yeah like it's
also the you know there's a different like there's a reason why we are in the
US for example the landed on the separations of powers yeah it's like the
people who make the loss are different people then execute the loss same
idea yeah yeah and it's like the guy who writes the implementation plan is a
different guy than who implement it yeah is a different guy who writes tests
for the implementation and so on and so yeah yeah yeah we need to do all that and
we'll probably have specialized models for all the Mexican stand-off works
everything you've got to fucking have a gun at every single trying all the way
done yeah talk to me about your sovereign engineering journey from start to
finish you lived through the the the the meteororic rise of vibe coding yeah with
us yeah and what was the first cohort you joined as a participant fourth one
yeah there was a vibe coding one actually no that was the first one where we were
Paul yeah yeah that's what I mean shop yeah yeah yeah that was like first
vibe coding first week of the fourth one yeah Paul showed us the way yeah and
wild call while Kelly was trying to build a cashew client life on air yeah Paul
beat him to it yeah just purely vibe coding the car accident yeah yeah I mean
both kind of broke but yeah there was no we were still kind of okay it was it was
like a light bulb moment there's something there yeah and yeah well before
psychophore I had not touched I'd not even did chat GPT situation because I was
well so you went from no no contact with all alarms to fall on vibe coding
vibe coding yeah all right yeah psychophore I was like oh what do you like I didn't
even know the terms when I came I think vibe coding the term appeared in the
same week yes yes yeah got potty right yeah yeah so yeah well I didn't even
actually know what made you sign up for a cycle for in the first place I
didn't know sovereign engine existed like three weeks before I was people don't
we suck at marketing yeah and I was like I had given up Twitter a while back I was
barely on any social media not even a noster and my partner back home he said that
oh he's going for we were in Thailand for a Bitcoin conference and conference
kind of thing business partner yeah business partner yeah and he said oh I'm
going for this thing it starts in March I'm like oh cool what is it and he
explained it to me I was like oh this sounds great this is great for our little
pet project that we were doing back in India and because we wanted encrypted
communication a familiar communication between parties and
peer-to-peer trading right yeah for peer-to-peer trading and and we were we had
looked at a noster about two years back but noster didn't have any DM situation
and back then so so we expected like oh it should have moved ahead and we did
a basic research and like that is something DM still exist in noster but we
don't have any idea because none of us work in noster so I'm like this
seems like good there's going to be a bunch of noster guys I guess we can go
over there and ask some questions and maybe find answers right and fortunately I
had I had visa for Europe for a climbing trip I was going to come for a
climbing trip and that's where I've like four days late and I signed up I had
a chat with Martijn and he's like oh of course come on and I ended up over
here with like no no programming for the past three years just restarted this
peer-to-peer project and just came on a whim turns out you didn't even need
programming experience yeah exactly yeah I'm like I didn't even know exactly like
oh this demo day situation is an actual hard requirement I'm like I'm just
gonna come all here and have good conversations with at that at that point in
time we didn't tell people beforehand right we just we just sprung it on
everyone was like oh by the way yeah demos are not all everyone has to demo I was
like oh my god like you know am I gonna be you know kicked out of here in the
first week exactly if you don't if you don't manage to do a demo then you're
gonna get kicked out and we're gonna shoot you in the face on your way out yeah
thankfully nobody shot me out despite most of my projects actually no they
were at least some part of it was code but it was mostly about writing up the
protocol for this peer-to-peer thing that I worked on during cycle four well now
we have all kinds of encrypted communication overnoster and even ephemeral
ones and so the work is done basically yes it's like you don't have to you
don't have to touch that project anymore all right I still have to put it
together I shoved it after cycle four and then never looked at it but since last
two weeks there's still a market need in India yeah absolutely okay yeah all
right yeah so I have to put it together I think I will before cycle eight I will
have a working prototype right all right so cycle four you you got pushed into
the deep end of the pool as a participant yeah cycle five what happened in
between the talk me through a cycle five your journey so cycle four finished I
was on a high this is fucking incredible I met my tribe so to speak over here
and I was gonna come for every single cohort as a participant and I love
Madera me and Marta and we had conversations about oh this is so great
because we go on hikes right and one of the hikes was in Nans Valley I think
Nans Valley is fucking the place for the world that it was it was it was kind
of from the rest of the population for a long time because they were not
tunnels yeah so it's only persistent basically yeah only old people lots of
land way for a lot of money yeah and it's a great spot and I enjoyed being
over here so I wanted to come again and again and then then Marta
proposed like maybe you want to start working with us in some way and I'm like
sure why not I would love to and then you and Pablo basically initiated the
whole discussion about like do you want to come on board and handle the stuff
and I'm like yeah sure like that's not a question like I'm definitely doing
this shit like you know like this is I like it's like I feel grateful that you
you guys mentioned it and I feel fortunate that you guys offered me this thing
and so I accepted and then we started working together you know why we offered
it to you no because I would have all the people that participated in these
cohorts yeah we agreed that you are the the one who would actually be crazy
enough to say yeah I moved to Madera and the world I think so I'm glad I'm glad
I'm glad this worked out as we as we thought it would yeah so yeah that's
awesome very happy to have you on board and it makes my life of course easier
because now I only burn out half of the time when the summer engineering is
going on yeah because as you by now know just from the organizational side
it's not nothing yeah yeah I have to take care of the people you have to take
care that kind of the weekly program is yeah executed well that everyone knows
what's happened that you and they can organize the hikes organize the
various sessions that we have and obviously the captain's help as well yeah but
yeah I'm glad that we landed on something that kind of works and yeah I mentioned
this in the last conversations as well I just want to keep it like keep doing
it the first long as we can yeah as long as people are motivated as long as
the internet isn't fixed yet yes as long as we can we should keep doing it
because man what we do at sovereign engineering is incredible and which is why
I like it's basically locking 21 different people that are on on some sort of
spectrum somewhere in a room not allowing them to leave for multiple weeks
that's the that's the recipe for success that's the recipe for you know like
not a bunch of artists yeah kind of a hard rule because you know artists like
like like kind of guardrails otherwise they kind of fall over so yeah I think
it's extremely important what we do here and like I would I would like if I was
doing something else important and you guys would have offered me like it would
have made my life really hard because then I like this is something that is
so close to my heart what we do here and the alignment and you know the
philosophy of it yeah I think it's also the right time it's a very timely thing
it's I think that's also why people are coming and are excited about it
because everyone knows and feels in their bone that you know the internet is
basically broke yeah we need to fix it and we keep but we with with a Bitcoin
background basically and cryptography background and the and the peer-to-peer
background we have the knowledge or some of us some people at least I'm not even
gonna include myself yeah have the knowledge of of and also the the means and
the world power to do something about it like if you live through two or three
Bitcoin bear markets yeah you're just you're just gonna and if you actually want
to fix the thing you're gonna have some great and world power to you know work on
this for the next 10-15 years until it's not actually starts working so that's
what I appreciate about the people that are here it's because it's it's it's
quite a high barrier to come here yeah high barrier of entry even though like
doesn't come from us it comes naturally from the island and from the circumstances
yeah then you automatically have to write people here that actually want to
fix this shit that actually are in it for the right reasons that actually you
know want to yeah want to make the internet a better place and hopefully learn
from the past yeah I liken this to the the outdoor old school
slamming community in that sense because you know like clamping very high
barrier to entry very hard very difficult you could be sitting in your house
doing a shitty job and being comfortable but no you want to get out in the
nature and you live on the wall push yourself live on the wall you know like
probably put yourself through a situation where you will probably die or break a
few bones but you still want to do it because it's it's it's for the love of
the game right that's why we have to shack up an advertisement on the
website let's go down here because it's basically no pay or like it says very
low wages but we don't even have that yeah we have no pay no wages but you know
safe return doubtful like all those kind of things long journey a bit
or cold all the all those kind of stuff yeah and still like I think for
chocolate it was like three thousand people that were brave enough to sign up
to go into the Arctic and explore it's on and of course the ship broke
everything was terrible they had to drift on broken ice for multiple months
and like insane story I highly recommend everyone read up on
Amanda Shackleton and endurance was the name of the ship and just what the crew
went through and yeah everyone made it like that's like like that's the that's why
I love the story because we're all gonna make it yeah yeah it's like it's gonna be
fine yeah just believe stay on the broken ice shoot some seals put your hands
into the seals to warm your hands for like ten seconds drink the blood eat the
seals we're gonna be fine it's gonna be great we're gonna be fine just keep on
keeping on yeah it's in climbing we have this like glory or nothing you know you
have to go for it oh sure there's many there's many I think that's a few
crazy ones that who actually do it that's why people gravitate to extreme sports
I think in the first place because there's a lot of duo die moments yeah where
you actually have to commit and you don't know how it's gonna go yeah and I think
that's in the DNA of sovereign engineering as well yeah where you just with
every single demo that you just you know wipe code it in the last two or three
days yeah you you you you never know how it's gonna go and if it's gonna work or
if it's gonna break right because demo effect is a thing yeah and and you just
have to commit and you also don't know is it a good idea will people like it will
people hate it yeah and you just have to jump and just do it yeah and uh wipe
coding man like you know that one last prompt syndrome is is sometimes work
sometimes doesn't you know like I do minutes before the demo like I did it
fix it probably it's a slot machine it's a slot machine let's let's walk
because you walk really fast okay so we will we'll do two or three rings here
okay we'll have to play for time a little bit I can try and walk so then
SEC 06 yeah just concluded two weeks ago yeah um or so yeah talk me through that as well
because um I wasn't here for large parts of the cohort yeah and it was the identity one which
is a topic that's near and dear to my heart yes um so what did you think of it what was what
were the most exciting demos and projects you saw and what were some of the problems that people
right um so uh SEC 06 was about identity and signers and uh very very timely cohort in that
sense because we had this whole agentic uprising so to speak of of claws coming in in the world
and you know like trying to figure like if humans are trying to figure out how to give them an
identity without jumping through the hoops of uh of traditional internet I think everyone who
sets up open claw runs into that problem immediately right it's like uh who am I who are you how do
I talk to you yeah and give me like 25 different API keys so I can actually operate yeah uh so everyone's
going through that pain and somehow they are they have uh like humans are very uh
humans are okay with pain they can they can they're very tolerant in that sense but uh what we have
over here is like with Noster like like it's spin off your insect and like now we talk
and nip 17 bms right um but uh for uh so that was one component about the identity and stuff which
was uh like Noster uh and Kashu uh and Lightning and it's like it's a perfect match like you know
what what what what what are the things what are the building blocks that you can use without
using a permission identity right like what's the difference between cryptographic identity and
something like a facebook identity or whatever and what are the tools that you can actually use
like purely based on a cryptographic identity like what can you use if you just have an n-pump
and that's obviously Noster blossom for data storage and sites for deployment
Kashu you have money you have money to buy humans buy other agents buy APIs buy whatever resources
that you want yeah right and you don't have to ask permission that's the most important thing
right uh you talk about Facebook you talk about Twitter you talk about Gmail you talk about
any of these things like you need a phone number to sign up like yeah how the fuck is a yeah
claw going to get a phone number from you have to give it to it I feel like we need a new Steve
former like you know he went out at Microsoft and what's like the valor bursty valor bursty
valor bursty valor burst yeah I'm gonna be the guy like super sweaty and go like permission less
permission less permission less that's what that's what it's about you can just do things in Noster
like you know just spin up your answer or not you don't even have to do it just tell your claw
yeah you know download nack create an insect for yourself and send me a dm yeah that's why
is my n-pump that's why I created Nihau that was the first thing I showed off with one right it's like
use what you did literally one shot prompt it's like use Nihau in open-close kill
right to set yourself up with Noster yeah and nip 17 dms because the the nip for the m integration
it ships with open-close obviously broke yeah and nip nip 4 is terrible yeah and it's literally
like on a new installation one shot prompt and the and your agent sends you a dm on Noster and
then you can take it from there yeah and for the last like two months or so now my Noster clients
and I use all kinds of different clients are my agent again the face so I just the m like every
project has an n-pump yeah and I just the m with my project say let's build this let's do that
let's update this you can have every single every single agent can have its own n-pump every single
agent can have its own context window within your nip 17 chat box and you can even if you want like
a few agents mixing together and having conversations with them and sharing context create a group with
them right you can do many kind of groups with them like nip 29 nip 17 groups like there's this
multiple ways of doing it and they themselves can figure it out because it is programmatic yeah it
does not need a permission from KYC based entity to oh is it and like all the captures that we have
is about like are you human and now we are talking about bots being you know first I think the capture
the capture should be are you useful are you useful yeah not are you human yeah I don't care if
you're human yeah it's like are you useful no more or are you or are you an attacker yeah are you a
good guy or are you a bad guy so and this new world like you know capture is dead it's
somewhat about humans because agents are first-class identities now we still need to solve the same
issues that the capture check box solves which is basically you need to defend of TIDOS you need to
NOSTA gives you for free right yeah yeah but we haven't solved it completely yet but a combination
of web of trust before group come close off this exactly right you have payments so you can
you can have payments up payments sets are just difficulty adjusted for work right so you have
multiple ways of doing it and just combine it in the best way that is useful for your system that
that you are creating yeah you you want to create a public relay but you don't want it be abused
like you know charge a set for you know like I don't know for like 100 notes or something like that
yeah and well and it can be programmatic we have Elforo 2 now we have many different ways of
doing solving yeah so you have that you have proof of that there was my the title the title that I
had with Kelly it was like Cashew fixes 402 yeah absolutely I think it was the fourth one yeah yeah
so yeah the Elforo 2 like we saw we saw a couple of engine X modules also coming out of some
engineering yeah we had the folding 402 with lightning and with Cashew yes we had one part is
been in the psycho 5 where we had the project was called paygris and we had we had a script
a bash script buying a docker container from a different machine also a script by paying Cashew
directly so machine buying a docker container and the machine provisioning the docker container
to the requesting script yeah the idea was self self replicating agents and services the most
the idea yeah and we're I feel like we're very very close to that we have all the building blocks
it's just like someone has to obviously the stuff we are doing here is like the first 80% or so
and as everyone knows the last 5% are the hardest actually making a production ready and polishing
and so on but we don't care about that which is get the ideas out get the prototype shout
big things need to sit together put someone else someone else has to take over I mean that's how
FIPS happened right as well so so someone like Jonathan has to sit down and actually implement the
thing in a reasonable way but it's some sense FIPS wouldn't have happened without some
engineering no because Aryan ran into all these issues working on toll gate and all this kind of
stuff yeah and then you know we went to know DNS and then we went to FIPS yeah and yeah
then it's no bolt from there inside of five we had like big conversations around you know the whole
the other stuff of Noxter which is no DNS stuff FIPS stuff and toll gate and all of these things
like how how how how can we use these things like we have good ideas and we have a lot more
questions but we see that it is possible but how do we put them together and from that that's
kind of how we kind of came up to like okay let's have a dedicated cohort for this because we
need big brains and grabeards who know the stuff who has done this stuff for decades now
from the beginning of internet and you know like solve these questions for us because
clearly there is something over here and we don't have enough information about it and luckily
for us the big brains and the grabeards actually came yes they actually did right so so we put a
flag on the ground yeah machine networking and hardware and it's like if you like those things
just come just come and people actually came it's awesome it's awesome to see but let's jump
back to the identity one SCCO 6 so yeah a big topic once of course agentic identity those kind of
things which we just touched on but another one was also key rotation key relation key compromise
what do you do yeah key rotation identity continuation there kind of similar things slightly
different but we had so one of the things was about you know like what do we do like
Noster for it to be deployed seriously to be considered seriously on a persistent level
because we're talking about identities now and if you in any way a serious person who is
building a serious identity on top of Noster and something happens to your key
yeah even worse if you're a serious organization if you're a serious organization because then
you have to intern you have an intern social media intern yes right now like for my organizations
plural yeah I can't have a social media intern for any of those because I have to give them
the answer right and like what if it turns out it wasn't really bad intern then I have to kick
them out and it's like everything's terrible like you can't undo giving yes giving them the answer
and so that's definitely an issue we have to solve on the Noster side yeah Noster works really well
for reckless people right now yes doesn't work for organizations at all in some sense yeah unless
it's the you know like a single person organization yeah and like talk me through the proposals
that were made during the cohort and what people came up with so there were two main proposals
regarding key rotation one was one was using cryptographic proofs and social attestation as a coherent
solution because we've had many proposals in the last few years talking about different ways
of doing cryptographic proofs so that we can signal key rotation and the clients follow that or
Vitor for example had like you know its identity there's no cryptographic proof and it has to be
social and so he had a very radical solution like let's just do social attestation social only
no social only no cryptographic because if you get compromised your attacker can provide the same
proofs as you can yeah I think we have to differentiate between key loss and yes key compromise
yes exactly if someone steals your key it's a different scenario than you lost your key so that
is why I thought like my solution was like we need two parallel systems independent of each other
which can be combined to provide a stronger signal but they can also be used in different scenarios
depending on whether it's a loss whether it's a compromise and what you have available whether
you have set it up whether you have access to your whether it's a tragic loss of your key and you
know so there are many scenarios and you can't address everything in a very simple manner so
I picked up I kind of matched Pablo's 829 proposal with Haudenburg's and created a cryptographic
identity which was simpler and a social attestation taking a leaf from the door so that was one
proposal and I still have to very simply put it's a combined approach it's a combined your social
attestation but but with a cryptographic issue it just mixed in yes so you can enhance the cryptographic
proofs with social attestation but one one important distinction between the previous proposals versus
the one that I have is that all the previous proposals required the clients to do the heavy lifting
of yeah of keeping the shape together keep making sure that you know like it has been signaled
the dispute window is managed and when the dispute comes the clients actually have to show hey
you're following an old account this guy is now this other end pound yes and and not just that but
also manage and after the dispute window to to change the follow list yeah the old the old
notes and the old data as well yeah so it was a push change by clients to the users which is
always a bad thing for because a client can turn malicious any point at any point of time and
just can it's not a good thing a push thing is never a good thing so what I did was like instead of
clients managing the state and stuff and pushing these changes it is up to the user so say you
know I lose my key and I send a migration event and the client all it has to do is that it has
to detect this kind and display to every single follower of mine that this person has signaled a
migration event and here is the details of that and you decide as a follow up what you want to do
whether you want to do it or not so you as a as a follower or a friend or a user will out of
band communicate with me and figure out if it is true or not right and then you will signal yes
in this migration event was good and it is legit and so you change your follow do the new key
and to Vitor's point we always need to do some sort of that you always need to do some sort of
out of band communication and verification because it doesn't matter what kind of system you come
up with because most other systems let's say you have a master key and you derive multiple identities
from the master key and so okay what if you lose your master key exactly same idea as with Bitcoin
right like you have your 12 words stamped in steel okay what if you lose that or what if that's
gets stolen like you're pretty much right so much you can do yeah so instead of and given enough
time you know if majority of or say a decent amount of followers of yours whoever did the migration
event change to the new identity the others using the WOT system that we have can see that now all
of these all of these followers have changed the new identity so maybe I should do it as well but
it gets murky and it's there is no solution to this kind of thing but it is this I didn't even tell
you to say that there's no solution there's only trade-offs the only thing you can do is like let
users decide wouldn't you have guessed yeah wouldn't you have guessed another another problem we
about yeah we're out clear solution exactly yeah that truly is that truly is no solution to that
not a not a clear and good one yeah without of course you know introducing a truss at third party
which is the we we revolve back the door and come to Facebook yeah if you want to do it right if
you want to build it probably and yeah we've actually used a self-servantate mind yeah there
isn't the good solution yeah the user has to be yeah you're responsible to some degree as well
yeah when you're when you're moving to a key based world a responsibility is on the user and they
have to be responsible yeah I mean it's just like with firearms right it's just like either the
fire more arm is actually able to harm someone else yeah which means it's also able to harm you
exactly which means you have to handle it responsibly exactly or it's just like whatever you know
like the children's toy and then it doesn't do you any good yeah it's the same same idea yeah let's
go here a little bit I still want to buy us a little bit more time because we are just at
SSEO 6 yeah I still have to update the site and see if I kind of get even all the projects in and so
yeah but yeah there was another proposal yeah I was just about to ask so there was we went
through yours I think Jesus had something as well she's had another proposal which I actually like
a lot more because his proposal is very very simple and I don't think it's enough but still it
is great one his idea is that identity and signaling and all of these things are probabilistic even
if you have cryptographic in a way because there's always question and you have to out of band confirm
that is it a legit migration whether this is cryptographic or not right yeah so since it is
stochastic in that sense and you are you're always going to have to kind of make a judgment call
in a way his idea was that just have one kind and just have a kind of a threaded migration
link so you would create a you would create a proof basically an OTS time stamp and you will keep
this proof with yourself and this proof and the assumption is that you do that before you got
compromised yes of course yeah yeah but that has to be the assumption yeah so you would keep
that and you don't have to define what is the future key and so you don't have to manage two
different keys and any of these things that was not the case and mine as well but if you when
you want to migrate you would refer to the previous proof like I prove and you you can do it with
any key so you don't know key management no derivation no none of these things you can just take
any new key and use the previous proof provide the say commitment so to speak a preimage rather
that this is the this was the old key which got compromised and my attacker has it or I lost it
or whatever this is my new one and this is how I'm proving continuation of my identity so instead
of key rotation he's like identity continuation yeah without having to deal with keys and also without
having to deal with the old notes for example yes we don't care about it we don't care about it like
what you what you're all that you posted in the past you're not going to migrate that over right
and even with any kind of key rotation like to to be to do all the to migrate all the old notes
and stuff like that's why it doesn't work it doesn't work it doesn't work it doesn't work because
just the not sure ideas are are self referential yeah and and like you can't you will change
the hashes by resigning them for you know really like and it's again no solutions yeah no solution
it's very easy his idea is is a very very simple one it is very very workable no client has to do
anything or even show people yeah you know and none of these things actually yeah related to that
I just saw that a couple days ago that was just like maybe a week ago or not even
pip the social graph guy who will build vertex yeah and he showed that a very primitive form of
identity continuation uh already works just based on web of thrust metrics alone okay um and he
he showcased it with one guy who um switched ampups right and the old account followed the new
account yeah and some other important people started following the new account as well yeah
and then if you search for the for the guy's name yeah the new account immediately shows up because
it has a high await on on patreon basically and and so we already have like these purely social
primitive mechanisms they already work absolutely use vertex that that will already work like
absolutely for example could alert you yeah um using vertex you know like hey it looks like
you're looking at them like half of your follow list is outdated then yeah that's when people move
to and so yeah so so that's interesting to see that multiple approaches kind of work and
Vitor is right in that sense like you know it's identity is a social thing and this should be good
and what uh Jesus proposes uh doing this identity continuation thing it is very simple very
uh implementable uh very easy for clients to integrate it and I think it's a very good proposal
for this um though I think uh there still needs to be some kind of a cryptographic way for us to
change identities because especially when we're talking about agentic and programmatic world
uh I think uh there's a use case over there I think for the agent stuff what you want to have is
um you want to link them together in some way yeah and also you want to think about
um what's the right word provisioning in some sense yeah like um
that's what I run into the most is like what and pubs can talk to each other and how do they
hang together if I build an agent hierarchy and I build it on master yeah like what's the
what agent can instruct other agents all those kind of things and so on so I think there's
something there also in terms of you know like the spawning sub account spawning sub agents I
talked this about this very very briefly with with smarty um just yesterday that we already have
people like sir sleepy and other people and master the power users yeah and they have their main
account yeah but they have like three or four or five other accounts yeah and it's like one
account only posts classical music stuff one account only posts about trains one account only
posts about whatever like crazy memes and so on yeah and you still want to like in a traditional
social media context you might have a sub account system or those kind of things yes
and that all all these all these things hang loosely together in my mind where like for
example if I want to switch a client or if I get a new phone I just want to punch in one thing
and all my accounts are there that's for example yeah like right now because I have 15 different
insects or whatever it's like right now I have to put them manually yeah just getting a new phone
just because of that yeah yeah there was one more proposal which was very it makes a lot of
sense when you look at it from you know just a cryptographic point of view and has a lot of
but not for the use case of key rotation and stuff but for key management part of it because
it he makes we had another proposal using bpd5 for example for doing this stuff but
that is part of the key management like these are many different components we're kind of
talking them as a composite thing but the key management part there's still a lot of work we can
do over there to make the UX easier and design clients in such a way that they actually provide
this kind of a easy way of what you're talking about not only clients but also signers yeah as
well signers as well yeah for sure we had the portal team here right yeah it was also I think in
the same week that the cards started primal released their signing abilities yes yes and so that's
definitely on it is on the client side as well but it's also on the signer sign yes for me it's
just awesome to see that we actually have signers yeah and we have multiple signers and there's
even hardware signer projects and so on I know Ben from Ellen Bitts was hacking on a hardware
base not for signer and all those kind of things yeah so yeah it's just awesome to see the
yeah we had we had another guy participant who actually made a firmware update like a custom
firmware for treasure and started using that as a hardware signer yeah awesome yeah I remember
yeah yeah there was only one treasure guy yeah awesome let's switch gears a little bit so
um we're experimenting right now with shorter cohort durations yeah so SCCO 6 was three weeks only
yeah in the beginning we had we had eight weeks which I think is might be a week or two too long
yeah yeah but the right now the regular cohort duration is six weeks yes which I think is
pretty perfect yes because it takes a week or two to get up and running and to get the group going
and kind of get the get all the ideas out on the table and then you start putting the pieces back
together basically and like Justin mentioned that as well like it really takes up steam in like
weeks three four and five yes and and how do you think did the three weeks go for SCCO 6 was it
a worthwhile experiment did we learn anything we did we did learn that three weeks is not enough
three weeks was just like a warm-up what ended what ended up happening was like we all came
for SEC it's kind of like a pilgrimage kind of a situation by now everybody comes from the
the outside world into this bubble and it takes them a while to adjust yeah it takes them a while to
adjust right and the first two three weeks is just like okay we are back in this thing and like
now we're starting to get into the groove and by the time we got in the groove it was the end of
SCCO 6 right which kind of which kind of actually helps SCCO 7 because everybody's geared up and
everybody's fired up and like SCCO 7 first week was fucking fantastic yeah we hit the ground running
this was sure I think it was one of the most energetic first weeks we had yes and yeah it's
awesome to see that we have a bit of spillover so people don't come in blank basically but obviously
the topic is related mesh networks and hardware because you need identity for mesh networks as well
like some form of who is what device and like how do devices connect to each other and so on yeah
but obviously it's a very different topic and we have a about half alumni half new people yeah
and it's awesome to see like I think the the three weeks of SCCO 7 they like
like we have something cooking yes oh yeah oh yeah so it's going to be massive hitting the
ground running then three weeks might be enough yeah like yeah yeah yeah but I think it's a like
six weeks is good or maybe you know like if we wanted to it still is like if we want a smaller one
I think minimum four weeks three weeks is not not not good yeah it takes a while to get the
brain chooses flowing and get the experiments up and running and so but the six week thing is
just about one second well so we have two weeks left yeah for SCCO 7 yeah and then we'll have a
little bit of a break yeah and then we'll have yellow plus plus we'll have yellow plus weeks in the
six weeks yeah so yeah can we announce that already is that still a secret no it's already
you know that we are gonna know I mean oh yeah yeah yeah no it is it is already announced okay so
we're gonna conclude with BTC plus plus in there yeah after the core after the summer cohort yeah
so that's gonna be amazing of course that's gonna be awesome yeah yeah so lots of people are
gonna be here oh yeah nifty is gonna be here yeah we'll have a we'll have a kind of big party at
a big party yeah it's gonna be like the it's gonna be BTC plus plus so yeah like kind of a good
people here primer for the next conference to on on malaria so that's a good one yeah yeah that's
right we have behind the lanterns coming up as well yeah yeah it's already been four years almost
almost next coming next coming next conference and yeah this is actually going to be the first
demo day first public demo day after cycle one at BTC plus plus yeah yeah yeah yeah let's see how
we go that's gonna be interesting let's see how you go yeah no I'm excited lots of lots of good people
are gonna come yeah so with lots of we're gonna have lots of alumni for the summer one hopefully some
new and motivated people as well yeah and like you said you know it's it's kind of turning into
a book pilgrimage yeah it's kind of a place you want to go to just to hack on certain things
with a bunch of crazy people yeah and just see what comes out yeah and like more and more like it's
it's it's like the same kind of faces kind of end up showing a lot of times so it's good yeah we're
just gonna do it in India or some other place one day oh yeah we must do a summer
engineering at some other places yeah we're gonna we're gonna branch out eventually yeah I
I you know it's already it's already bubbling on the first yeah on the surface people are eager to
yeah take the program somewhere else and and do it at a different place yeah I think one of the
most important things is it should be a relatively high barrier to entry in terms of getting to the
place yes and second of all it should be very hard to leave yeah because like you said it takes a
while it takes a week of orientation until you like I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people
that came and were like what the fuck is going on what the fuck is this doesn't make any sense yeah
and if they would have the opportunity to leave in the first two days they would they probably would
yes just like enter a train and it's like a fuck this I'm out of here yeah so you have to get
with it a little bit yeah and like you know like when people are confused why are we going on hikes
yeah like what does this have to do with yeah engineering yeah yeah it's like but they don't
understand that if you pack a group of people on a three hour hike yeah and keep it compact enough
all that people can do is talk yeah you think about this stuff you want to build and you're talking
about it and people are you know like they they don't really understand what's going on and what
they are doing yeah but they are discussing the next big thing without even knowing it and also like
like we kind of have a structure but we don't have a structure we have to do a lot of
according to some people yeah I got accused by another Indian guy like all the Indian guys are up
proxies he's like what's going on I thought there was an anarchist problem why is there so much
structure why do we have like a nine to twelve structure with no anyway so uh but that's as advertised
like it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a program with a little bit of structure so Monday
to Wednesday nine to twelve yeah with Monday orientation Tuesday talks Wednesday workshops
Thursday's time off yeah Friday demo day it's just the afternoon that's the first week and from
second week on Monday we go on hikes so yeah yeah but the first week we also go on a hike it's
just like an easy it's a walk it's a it's a nice walk beautiful walk and you and and you will
see the tunnel that you keep hearing about where the bus does lie and everything yes yes yes yes
yeah people like the tunnel it brings its own sound effects yeah but yeah no I'm glad that it's
working and every single cohort something useful comes out like that's the that's the goal for me
personally that's the goal yeah for sure like we want to see stuff actually shipped yeah it makes it
production quote-unquote if such a thing exists on us sir but basically something that gets used
and for me it's just awesome to see now like n-sites have a big resurgence oh yeah
sandwich went ham on them and yeah and like lots of people are deploying stuff to n-site now oh yeah
the default for demos is deploying it on an n-site now yeah exactly and just you know like blossom
came out of the cohorts n-site came out of the cohorts we have lots of stuff that came out of here
like nip 60 61 of course and like just not so and so on and it's awesome to just see this out
in the wild and people picking it up and using it and running with it and so on so that's that's
always the hope yeah all right last last section we're now at SEC07 right what can you tell me about
the first week what happened what did we see what was some of the demos that you liked first
demo day we had well we have reached a point where we are now having FIPS parties not land parties
so we have been hacking our way at FIPS which is a free internet working peering system not
something else you might have heard and it's a it's a new way to peer between between different
devices and machine network working protocol and now there's been a lot of stuff that happened on
FIPS in fact FIPS has been integrated into an ESP32 radio yeah it was one of the demos yeah radio
mixnet so nip network is FIPS is running on top of nip network then we have TCP
TCP UDP of course we have VPNs being built on top of FIPS now we have so
Marty is migrating not every yet oh yeah yeah Marty is also doing that stuff on on top of FIPS he
wants to integrate not the VPN and FIPS we have tour on top of FIPS now yeah Thomas showed off a
drawing board that ran on on FIPS and tour right where people can collaborate literally yes
wrong canvas yeah and you can only connect either via FIPS or via tour yeah and it is kind of
insane like we talked about FIPS I mean we're cheating a little bit we have the FIPS guy here yeah
we have the FIPS guy so we're blessed that Jonathan came and yeah oh my god can't help everyone
without him this would not have been like where we are today but like in sacrifice when we
were discussing this we were like oh this would be so awesome maybe someday in the future in five
years maybe we will get to something like FIPS and then Jonathan comes on the on the scene yeah
and came out of retirement yeah he came out of retirement right he started discussing this thing
in November and then February hey guys I was just working on something and here you know just
install this FIPS is ready I'm like what like what and from February to now which is almost like
six weeks I something like that we have all of these things being built on top of FIPS already
and it's not over like because now we are waiting for the next and this is still like a toy FIPS
in a way yeah yeah so then there's gonna be a next he's actually a little bit mad that people are
building so much stuff on it already because he's not ready he still has to he still has to break it
once or twice and he and because he comes from the old school right like oh we should have a flag day
and we should let people know that we are going to have breakfast push to main break it
no no fuck it you know just push to master fuck it up yeah everybody has no one to subgrade yeah
nobody cares it's still a five project nobody gives a fuck the eight people that know about it are all
here it's fine so we'll be fine exactly so so yeah FIPS is fucking insane incredible stuff and
away like FIPS gives me a lot of hope in a way as well because we finally have a way where we can
get rid of the entire centralized internet stack yeah everyone agrees that DNS is just DNS is a
shit coin too yeah to not only paraphrase but exactly quote Jonathan yeah yeah yeah IPv4 definitely
yeah and yeah so it's incredible that we have this and that by the time psycho psycho 7 finishes
I think we'll have a pretty decent substrate yeah of FIPS like a solid substrate because he
intends to do this breaking changes during the next two weeks and when is the when is the when
is the quick three FIPS party again oh it's in the afternoon today yeah today yeah and tomorrow
probably as well yeah of course thanks so we have a we have a quick three we have a quick three
server running on FIPS oh yes right oh yeah we have a quick three so we're running on FIPS and
everybody's just congregating at NOSTER office to have a FIPS party yeah yeah let's go yeah let's
go yeah we're not gonna bring back Clamp parties but we can you know bring them back
to my FIPS just you know my mesh parties yeah mesh parties it's just you know like 24th century
LAN parties let's do one more round out here and I think we'll end it at the at the Ford and then
I'm all cooked yeah and I'm I'll have to run anyway otherwise I'll leave my flight yeah unfortunately
yeah unfortunately I have to leave yeah um but I'll be back very soon I'll just be gone for a
couple days I just have to take care of family matters yeah and I'm excited to see what everyone
has been cooking up one time back oh yeah and you'll fill me in on on the hike on Monday yeah
and then we'll see we'll have to let's go here that's that's the path now okay and then we'll
yeah I have to final them today and then we see where we're at yeah to me it's just awesome that
you know like we the the whole point of summer engineering was how can we bring awesome people
together yeah without a lot of work for us in some sense yeah without you know like millions of
dollars in funding like how can we bootleg all this without driving anybody exactly you know and
just attractor right people yeah and to me it's just awesome that is working and I hope that it
will continue to work for people will just come just just for the heck of it it's just like
just want to meet cool people and have good conversations and have good food yeah the most
awesome thing for me is like everyone has this project in the back of my head that they always
wanted to build yeah and they never did because there was always an excuse yeah once you're at
summer engineering there's no excuse you have a couple weeks you have all the brain power in the world
yeah you know you have all the vibe coding credits in the world yes and you can just go hand yeah
and you can learn from people like just everyone else like yeah how do you how do you build a project
in like three days I mean if you if you're if you're not even into vibe coding if you just are
just have good ideas and don't know technically like you could come over here you could
you have access to all of these people just talk to them all of them everyone is an ex
so called we had the signers building cool shit yes exactly last quarter the c06 we have
this project manager building silent payments over not so so you know like if you have good
ideas like you have all the brain talent over here and ability over here to interact with and
actually build something that you could you could realize that you've been thinking of for years
in years yeah and who knows where it goes you know like we we don't put any restrictions on the
projects or anything like that you can take it wherever you want to take it yeah and if you
rob's contribution is going to be it is going to be the reason why silent payments is integrated in
in sparrow anyway yeah hopefully and jumper even and that's that's the point like he actually
already did I think yeah yeah that's the point it's like have the right idea get it out into the wild
even if it is built in a again like we we're just aiming for the 80% that's generous like as we
want to push it over 50% yes if it's the right idea even if it's like insecure and just vibe to
get a garbage no one cares yeah if someone like Craig raw picks it up and integrates it into
sparrow like that's it yeah that's what we are done yeah we don't have to at least you get the
conversation going and move the needle and that is the yeah and and that's why but that's why
the demos are so important to me because just having ideas is everyone has ideas yes if you're
forced to build it out and and show a working prototype yeah then you you can you can you have
something in your hands and you know how the thing looks and feels and can it work and doesn't
make sense and you have to like you know actually clarify the idea in your head what do you actually
want and what does it need for your idea to be realized and you come across all of these different
problems that you will solve and you have people to discuss with and yeah you'll find
solutions to that even more than that like because oftentimes if you just build something out
yourself yeah I think that's also not enough but you being forced in the time span of six minutes
to explain it to 20 other people yeah that are hypocritical yeah that is the important part
that really does it's like how can you explain the crazy idea that you have in like five minutes
to to a room full of you know very opinionated Oh yeah that's that's a feature it's a big feature
yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah no I love it I love that it that it works and continues to work
so what's your plan for for the next two weeks you have any demos in mind already
well I started on putting classic games on yeah you deploy do on an inside I
deploy do on an inside so yeah so I just want to make sure that it works on mobile
properly so I have to write the holy touch controls for that thing so I'll do that and see
see if other games I want to do or something else but you're gonna lean into the
fifth slam party game oh yeah absolutely let's bring it back you know we need to have we need to
make a north to fun again in a way so it's not fun right now well it is it's all right yeah it can
be fun it can be more fun for sure I saw Pete's kid he's doing some good stuff on games yeah games
stir and stuff yeah yeah shout out to Pete he put a lot of games yeah he put a lot of games
so that was an inspiration yeah yeah but I was also thinking of like I have a couple of ideas
on Fips that I want to discuss with Jonathan see if my ideas actually make sense or they're just
a dog shit but yeah I want to focus on Fips as well you're not alone you're not alone all the
talking people are focused on Fips is right now yeah and what do you think about the balloon idea
of corporate or as insane as it is makes me want to do it more because I actually think that if
that chip works it's not crazy so there it's it's similar it's a poor man's Starlink
putting toll gates on balloons it's the gorilla man's Starlink you know so it's yeah it's great
you could you could be as fancy as you want but this is you know at the end of the day we are all
choked by the fiber optic cables running all along the the earth and Elon Musk's generosity
and stuff like that if we're truly do we serve sovereign like we need a way to communicate as well
because all the radio bands are licensed yeah so what else do you have right yeah so that leaves
just balloons yes toll gates on balloons yes you think we're gonna see it I have to feeling that he's
just gonna manage he can be very convincing yeah he has a neck he has a neck for pulling people
into his crazy idea yeah yeah and then you realize as soon as you get in like why the fuck did I
even agree to this yeah but it's a it's a good one I would like to see and it's not expensive so
you know it's very much doable all right yeah all right so that's the end at the end of the
we're at the end of the road yeah the end of the road yeah yeah that's my my favorite spot by the way
okay that's my basically clearing my head getting away from everything kind of fun okay
nice right yeah it's a nice spot and I'm always at the very end where you know with all the other
drug addicts so they just don't know the kinds of drugs so interesting I'm just like it's
talking to me it's talking to me who would have thought that I got addicted to tokens yeah after
not shit-coining for so long oh yeah now I'm addicted to tokens yeah we had this conversation as
well about tokens the other day like why are we calling them tokens but unfortunately it is
it comes from mathematics so it is what it is yeah it is what it is yeah yeah so beautiful
Madera yeah wide and open sea you're still exploring we're still exploring that's what it is yeah
thanks for thanks for taking up the call yeah and searing that ship yeah and doing sovereign
engineering with us I really mean it thanks it's lighting yeah yeah we always end on the hug yes
and then I have to I have to find the phone to actually hit safe and see if we're so recording