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and that's it we're live yeah yeah I like this one the feature in this like you

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press that thing and it just starts recording yeah you can set it you can you

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can set it that every time you open it it just starts recording so I just I

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just used it all the time yeah and the vi-blind us the rest yeah hopefully and

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the clankers now now that I connected the vi-blind to the clankers yeah

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ever since I did that yeah things really yeah I saw I saw the feed like you

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know so it's pushing pushing pushing like everything is yeah not only that I

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mean that's just the that's just the not the the dialogue output yeah you should

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see my experimental software output okay like NAN that I showed like I missed

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that one yeah but it literally was like using a voice prompt to brainstorm the

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idea right using another voice prompt to go from the brainstorm to a to do list

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basically right like an implementation plan yeah and then setting up a

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cron jump that every 20 minutes tackles one of the to-do's and then it

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builds up overnight right and I was able to kind of show a working prototype

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on yeah I didn't want to set up I experimented with them I did the NIP 17 plug-in

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for null claw and then I got deep into the ZIG ecosystem and I wasted an entire

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months behind that thing I never set it up but and I didn't want to set up

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open claw on my system so I never did that but now I have a VPS where I'm

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going to set it up but that should work for zero claw just the same right yeah just

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the cron jump so open claw is free like is open like you know like you can do

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anything with it and that's why it's insecure and all of those things zero

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claw tried to be very secure and that makes it unusable he's just kind of

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it just didn't do anything so rapid prototyping or security pick one yeah yeah so

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yeah and now I'm going to embrace the claw all right yeah yeah yeah it's but

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it's gonna be more expensive now I mean yesterday yeah yeah yeah yeah and

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thropic decided to fuck everyone yeah but you know there are these smaller

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models cheaper models the Chinese ones they're extremely cheap and they're

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good enough for tasks and agentic kind of thing maybe not do you know

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actually in fact what you can do is you can still use codecs right so instead

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of hooking up with the opus you hook it up with codecs yeah yeah and it's fine yeah I

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was an opus maximalist until yesterday now I have to change my ways because I'm

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basically broke right now yeah it's like it's it's just it's just insane we I

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talked about this with Marty as well yeah that everyone subsidized right now

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yeah and obviously like we all know that I mean yeah if you're a power user

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then you're not gonna use yeah a paper queue or in route sir or because it's

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just like it's it's gonna bankrupt you easily yeah we can we can do that but yeah

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I'm bullish on local hardware like I'm bullish on running everything on your

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own bare metal yeah so I'm I'm still waiting on the M5 McMan is to pull the

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trigger yeah but I I might I might eat my words and just order an M4

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McMan in tomorrow because I'm just yeah I'm I have a problem yeah I'm I'm an

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addict yeah and someone took away by needle yesterday so I have an issue yeah

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and some of the smaller models are this is what we were talking about it in

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Yolo Plus Plus as well with a few people like the hardware is going to improve

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and also the models are going to get smarter like dedicated models like

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there's a agentic model only for tool calling yeah and you use that as your

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first part of the pipeline and then and then it routes to a specific things

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just like you have your pipeline right yeah open router has that already and

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route star now has to do they have the the the routing model in the sense

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yeah if something requires thinking yeah you're gonna use a thinking model if

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something is very simple yeah you use a simple model yeah like null claw has

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that I think open claw should have it as well I'm not sure I've not experimented

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with that one yet yeah you can you can just use the routing model says your main

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model and then you will have it it doesn't have it built in it has a model

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tree basically in the sense that you have an agent and you can set like that's

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your main model yeah and those are those five are your fallbacks yeah so if you

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get rid limited or you run out of credits you you'll have a fallback yeah but

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that's I think like my main suggestion is always to just do lots of

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experimentation pick a pet project and play around with it a lot yeah because

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then you'll figure all these things out like how to best yeah use the

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certain harness and how to like what what is one model good at and another one

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yeah sucks it and so yeah I moved away from Opus a while back because it just

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never worked for me like it would completely lie if yeah I did that and all the

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test pass and all the test says it's like yes true you know like yes we have

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passed but it hallucinated all the time yeah and it hallucinates all the time

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codex on the other hand I never give instructions by the way that's why I think

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why I work well with Opus right because I always ask questions I only ask

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questions right if I like did we do that and I always use the Royal Wii yeah did

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we implement that did you look at that did you double check everything I took a

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leaf from you and like you should see my conversations with codex because

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codex I feel like I can respect it and so I do respect it because it actually

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dust off and it's like oh please can you did you do that did we do this and

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like you know like what did we do back then like what were the decisions here

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and what yeah let's start recording our decisions you know and so we can

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refer to them later yeah it was funny when the when the the leak kept in the

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couple days ago oh yeah and people found what's it called is it Olympus I always

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mix up the way it's my toss muthus exactly yeah I'm closer now yeah muthus

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that's right yeah and people figured out that you know they have they

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actually treat certain code words in a special way because you mentioned you

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know please and yeah but especially on a negative sign like if you say what the

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fuck you what the fuck you know you fucking retard that doesn't work and so it's

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like yeah it will actually react differently it was like you so I think the

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learning from that leak is you should really swear at your models yeah if

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something goes wrong yeah that really helps yeah and yeah that like I don't

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know because even with codex for that for that matter I think me and Justin

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were talking about this like while they they're working and they go they have a

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plan like it's not a good idea to have questions in the same session yeah

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separate session absolutely and then you know like that is where you do

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all that stuff and even if you want to know I always start

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I logical I always build up contacts with questions yeah and before I

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implement something I always write the implementation plan yeah and then a new

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session builds the thing yeah yeah like it's it's it's it's the same like

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again I talk with Pablo about this a bunch in the 10x context yeah you have to

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rebuild the same structures that we humans land yes landed on yeah like it's

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also the you know there's a different like there's a reason why we are in the

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US for example the landed on the separations of powers yeah it's like the

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people who make the loss are different people then execute the loss same

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idea yeah yeah and it's like the guy who writes the implementation plan is a

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different guy than who implement it yeah is a different guy who writes tests

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for the implementation and so on and so yeah yeah yeah we need to do all that and

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we'll probably have specialized models for all the Mexican stand-off works

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everything you've got to fucking have a gun at every single trying all the way

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done yeah talk to me about your sovereign engineering journey from start to

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finish you lived through the the the the meteororic rise of vibe coding yeah with

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us yeah and what was the first cohort you joined as a participant fourth one

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yeah there was a vibe coding one actually no that was the first one where we were

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Paul yeah yeah that's what I mean shop yeah yeah yeah that was like first

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vibe coding first week of the fourth one yeah Paul showed us the way yeah and

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wild call while Kelly was trying to build a cashew client life on air yeah Paul

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beat him to it yeah just purely vibe coding the car accident yeah yeah I mean

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both kind of broke but yeah there was no we were still kind of okay it was it was

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like a light bulb moment there's something there yeah and yeah well before

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psychophore I had not touched I'd not even did chat GPT situation because I was

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well so you went from no no contact with all alarms to fall on vibe coding

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vibe coding yeah all right yeah psychophore I was like oh what do you like I didn't

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even know the terms when I came I think vibe coding the term appeared in the

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same week yes yes yeah got potty right yeah yeah so yeah well I didn't even

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actually know what made you sign up for a cycle for in the first place I

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didn't know sovereign engine existed like three weeks before I was people don't

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we suck at marketing yeah and I was like I had given up Twitter a while back I was

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barely on any social media not even a noster and my partner back home he said that

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oh he's going for we were in Thailand for a Bitcoin conference and conference

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kind of thing business partner yeah business partner yeah and he said oh I'm

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going for this thing it starts in March I'm like oh cool what is it and he

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explained it to me I was like oh this sounds great this is great for our little

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pet project that we were doing back in India and because we wanted encrypted

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communication a familiar communication between parties and

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peer-to-peer trading right yeah for peer-to-peer trading and and we were we had

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looked at a noster about two years back but noster didn't have any DM situation

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and back then so so we expected like oh it should have moved ahead and we did

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a basic research and like that is something DM still exist in noster but we

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don't have any idea because none of us work in noster so I'm like this

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seems like good there's going to be a bunch of noster guys I guess we can go

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over there and ask some questions and maybe find answers right and fortunately I

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had I had visa for Europe for a climbing trip I was going to come for a

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climbing trip and that's where I've like four days late and I signed up I had

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a chat with Martijn and he's like oh of course come on and I ended up over

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here with like no no programming for the past three years just restarted this

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peer-to-peer project and just came on a whim turns out you didn't even need

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programming experience yeah exactly yeah I'm like I didn't even know exactly like

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oh this demo day situation is an actual hard requirement I'm like I'm just

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gonna come all here and have good conversations with at that at that point in

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time we didn't tell people beforehand right we just we just sprung it on

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everyone was like oh by the way yeah demos are not all everyone has to demo I was

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like oh my god like you know am I gonna be you know kicked out of here in the

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first week exactly if you don't if you don't manage to do a demo then you're

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gonna get kicked out and we're gonna shoot you in the face on your way out yeah

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thankfully nobody shot me out despite most of my projects actually no they

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were at least some part of it was code but it was mostly about writing up the

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protocol for this peer-to-peer thing that I worked on during cycle four well now

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we have all kinds of encrypted communication overnoster and even ephemeral

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ones and so the work is done basically yes it's like you don't have to you

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don't have to touch that project anymore all right I still have to put it

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together I shoved it after cycle four and then never looked at it but since last

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two weeks there's still a market need in India yeah absolutely okay yeah all

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right yeah so I have to put it together I think I will before cycle eight I will

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have a working prototype right all right so cycle four you you got pushed into

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the deep end of the pool as a participant yeah cycle five what happened in

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between the talk me through a cycle five your journey so cycle four finished I

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was on a high this is fucking incredible I met my tribe so to speak over here

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and I was gonna come for every single cohort as a participant and I love

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Madera me and Marta and we had conversations about oh this is so great

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because we go on hikes right and one of the hikes was in Nans Valley I think

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Nans Valley is fucking the place for the world that it was it was it was kind

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of from the rest of the population for a long time because they were not

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tunnels yeah so it's only persistent basically yeah only old people lots of

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land way for a lot of money yeah and it's a great spot and I enjoyed being

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over here so I wanted to come again and again and then then Marta

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proposed like maybe you want to start working with us in some way and I'm like

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sure why not I would love to and then you and Pablo basically initiated the

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whole discussion about like do you want to come on board and handle the stuff

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and I'm like yeah sure like that's not a question like I'm definitely doing

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this shit like you know like this is I like it's like I feel grateful that you

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you guys mentioned it and I feel fortunate that you guys offered me this thing

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and so I accepted and then we started working together you know why we offered

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it to you no because I would have all the people that participated in these

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cohorts yeah we agreed that you are the the one who would actually be crazy

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enough to say yeah I moved to Madera and the world I think so I'm glad I'm glad

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I'm glad this worked out as we as we thought it would yeah so yeah that's

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awesome very happy to have you on board and it makes my life of course easier

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because now I only burn out half of the time when the summer engineering is

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going on yeah because as you by now know just from the organizational side

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it's not nothing yeah yeah I have to take care of the people you have to take

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care that kind of the weekly program is yeah executed well that everyone knows

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what's happened that you and they can organize the hikes organize the

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various sessions that we have and obviously the captain's help as well yeah but

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yeah I'm glad that we landed on something that kind of works and yeah I mentioned

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this in the last conversations as well I just want to keep it like keep doing

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it the first long as we can yeah as long as people are motivated as long as

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the internet isn't fixed yet yes as long as we can we should keep doing it

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because man what we do at sovereign engineering is incredible and which is why

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I like it's basically locking 21 different people that are on on some sort of

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spectrum somewhere in a room not allowing them to leave for multiple weeks

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that's the that's the recipe for success that's the recipe for you know like

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not a bunch of artists yeah kind of a hard rule because you know artists like

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like like kind of guardrails otherwise they kind of fall over so yeah I think

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it's extremely important what we do here and like I would I would like if I was

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doing something else important and you guys would have offered me like it would

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have made my life really hard because then I like this is something that is

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so close to my heart what we do here and the alignment and you know the

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philosophy of it yeah I think it's also the right time it's a very timely thing

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it's I think that's also why people are coming and are excited about it

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because everyone knows and feels in their bone that you know the internet is

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basically broke yeah we need to fix it and we keep but we with with a Bitcoin

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background basically and cryptography background and the and the peer-to-peer

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background we have the knowledge or some of us some people at least I'm not even

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gonna include myself yeah have the knowledge of of and also the the means and

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the world power to do something about it like if you live through two or three

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Bitcoin bear markets yeah you're just you're just gonna and if you actually want

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to fix the thing you're gonna have some great and world power to you know work on

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this for the next 10-15 years until it's not actually starts working so that's

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what I appreciate about the people that are here it's because it's it's it's

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quite a high barrier to come here yeah high barrier of entry even though like

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doesn't come from us it comes naturally from the island and from the circumstances

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yeah then you automatically have to write people here that actually want to

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fix this shit that actually are in it for the right reasons that actually you

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know want to yeah want to make the internet a better place and hopefully learn

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from the past yeah I liken this to the the outdoor old school

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slamming community in that sense because you know like clamping very high

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barrier to entry very hard very difficult you could be sitting in your house

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doing a shitty job and being comfortable but no you want to get out in the

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nature and you live on the wall push yourself live on the wall you know like

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probably put yourself through a situation where you will probably die or break a

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few bones but you still want to do it because it's it's it's for the love of

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the game right that's why we have to shack up an advertisement on the

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website let's go down here because it's basically no pay or like it says very

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low wages but we don't even have that yeah we have no pay no wages but you know

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safe return doubtful like all those kind of things long journey a bit

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or cold all the all those kind of stuff yeah and still like I think for

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chocolate it was like three thousand people that were brave enough to sign up

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to go into the Arctic and explore it's on and of course the ship broke

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everything was terrible they had to drift on broken ice for multiple months

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and like insane story I highly recommend everyone read up on

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Amanda Shackleton and endurance was the name of the ship and just what the crew

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went through and yeah everyone made it like that's like like that's the that's why

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I love the story because we're all gonna make it yeah yeah it's like it's gonna be

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fine yeah just believe stay on the broken ice shoot some seals put your hands

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into the seals to warm your hands for like ten seconds drink the blood eat the

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seals we're gonna be fine it's gonna be great we're gonna be fine just keep on

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keeping on yeah it's in climbing we have this like glory or nothing you know you

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have to go for it oh sure there's many there's many I think that's a few

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crazy ones that who actually do it that's why people gravitate to extreme sports

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I think in the first place because there's a lot of duo die moments yeah where

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you actually have to commit and you don't know how it's gonna go yeah and I think

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that's in the DNA of sovereign engineering as well yeah where you just with

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every single demo that you just you know wipe code it in the last two or three

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days yeah you you you you never know how it's gonna go and if it's gonna work or

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if it's gonna break right because demo effect is a thing yeah and and you just

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have to commit and you also don't know is it a good idea will people like it will

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people hate it yeah and you just have to jump and just do it yeah and uh wipe

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coding man like you know that one last prompt syndrome is is sometimes work

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sometimes doesn't you know like I do minutes before the demo like I did it

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fix it probably it's a slot machine it's a slot machine let's let's walk

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because you walk really fast okay so we will we'll do two or three rings here

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okay we'll have to play for time a little bit I can try and walk so then

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SEC 06 yeah just concluded two weeks ago yeah um or so yeah talk me through that as well

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because um I wasn't here for large parts of the cohort yeah and it was the identity one which

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is a topic that's near and dear to my heart yes um so what did you think of it what was what

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were the most exciting demos and projects you saw and what were some of the problems that people

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right um so uh SEC 06 was about identity and signers and uh very very timely cohort in that

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sense because we had this whole agentic uprising so to speak of of claws coming in in the world

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and you know like trying to figure like if humans are trying to figure out how to give them an

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identity without jumping through the hoops of uh of traditional internet I think everyone who

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sets up open claw runs into that problem immediately right it's like uh who am I who are you how do

264
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I talk to you yeah and give me like 25 different API keys so I can actually operate yeah uh so everyone's

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going through that pain and somehow they are they have uh like humans are very uh

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humans are okay with pain they can they can they're very tolerant in that sense but uh what we have

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over here is like with Noster like like it's spin off your insect and like now we talk

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and nip 17 bms right um but uh for uh so that was one component about the identity and stuff which

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was uh like Noster uh and Kashu uh and Lightning and it's like it's a perfect match like you know

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what what what what what are the things what are the building blocks that you can use without

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using a permission identity right like what's the difference between cryptographic identity and

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something like a facebook identity or whatever and what are the tools that you can actually use

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like purely based on a cryptographic identity like what can you use if you just have an n-pump

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and that's obviously Noster blossom for data storage and sites for deployment

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Kashu you have money you have money to buy humans buy other agents buy APIs buy whatever resources

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that you want yeah right and you don't have to ask permission that's the most important thing

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right uh you talk about Facebook you talk about Twitter you talk about Gmail you talk about

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any of these things like you need a phone number to sign up like yeah how the fuck is a yeah

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claw going to get a phone number from you have to give it to it I feel like we need a new Steve

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former like you know he went out at Microsoft and what's like the valor bursty valor bursty

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valor bursty valor burst yeah I'm gonna be the guy like super sweaty and go like permission less

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permission less permission less that's what that's what it's about you can just do things in Noster

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like you know just spin up your answer or not you don't even have to do it just tell your claw

284
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yeah you know download nack create an insect for yourself and send me a dm yeah that's why

285
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is my n-pump that's why I created Nihau that was the first thing I showed off with one right it's like

286
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use what you did literally one shot prompt it's like use Nihau in open-close kill

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right to set yourself up with Noster yeah and nip 17 dms because the the nip for the m integration

288
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it ships with open-close obviously broke yeah and nip nip 4 is terrible yeah and it's literally

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like on a new installation one shot prompt and the and your agent sends you a dm on Noster and

290
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then you can take it from there yeah and for the last like two months or so now my Noster clients

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and I use all kinds of different clients are my agent again the face so I just the m like every

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project has an n-pump yeah and I just the m with my project say let's build this let's do that

293
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let's update this you can have every single every single agent can have its own n-pump every single

294
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agent can have its own context window within your nip 17 chat box and you can even if you want like

295
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a few agents mixing together and having conversations with them and sharing context create a group with

296
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them right you can do many kind of groups with them like nip 29 nip 17 groups like there's this

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multiple ways of doing it and they themselves can figure it out because it is programmatic yeah it

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does not need a permission from KYC based entity to oh is it and like all the captures that we have

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is about like are you human and now we are talking about bots being you know first I think the capture

300
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the capture should be are you useful are you useful yeah not are you human yeah I don't care if

301
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you're human yeah it's like are you useful no more or are you or are you an attacker yeah are you a

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good guy or are you a bad guy so and this new world like you know capture is dead it's

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somewhat about humans because agents are first-class identities now we still need to solve the same

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issues that the capture check box solves which is basically you need to defend of TIDOS you need to

305
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:43,520
NOSTA gives you for free right yeah yeah but we haven't solved it completely yet but a combination

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of web of trust before group come close off this exactly right you have payments so you can

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you can have payments up payments sets are just difficulty adjusted for work right so you have

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multiple ways of doing it and just combine it in the best way that is useful for your system that

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that you are creating yeah you you want to create a public relay but you don't want it be abused

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like you know charge a set for you know like I don't know for like 100 notes or something like that

311
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yeah and well and it can be programmatic we have Elforo 2 now we have many different ways of

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doing solving yeah so you have that you have proof of that there was my the title the title that I

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had with Kelly it was like Cashew fixes 402 yeah absolutely I think it was the fourth one yeah yeah

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so yeah the Elforo 2 like we saw we saw a couple of engine X modules also coming out of some

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engineering yeah we had the folding 402 with lightning and with Cashew yes we had one part is

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been in the psycho 5 where we had the project was called paygris and we had we had a script

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a bash script buying a docker container from a different machine also a script by paying Cashew

318
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directly so machine buying a docker container and the machine provisioning the docker container

319
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to the requesting script yeah the idea was self self replicating agents and services the most

320
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the idea yeah and we're I feel like we're very very close to that we have all the building blocks

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it's just like someone has to obviously the stuff we are doing here is like the first 80% or so

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and as everyone knows the last 5% are the hardest actually making a production ready and polishing

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and so on but we don't care about that which is get the ideas out get the prototype shout

324
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big things need to sit together put someone else someone else has to take over I mean that's how

325
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FIPS happened right as well so so someone like Jonathan has to sit down and actually implement the

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thing in a reasonable way but it's some sense FIPS wouldn't have happened without some

327
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:04,240
engineering no because Aryan ran into all these issues working on toll gate and all this kind of

328
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:10,960
stuff yeah and then you know we went to know DNS and then we went to FIPS yeah and yeah

329
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then it's no bolt from there inside of five we had like big conversations around you know the whole

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the other stuff of Noxter which is no DNS stuff FIPS stuff and toll gate and all of these things

331
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:29,600
like how how how how can we use these things like we have good ideas and we have a lot more

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00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:35,360
questions but we see that it is possible but how do we put them together and from that that's

333
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,320
kind of how we kind of came up to like okay let's have a dedicated cohort for this because we

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00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,840
need big brains and grabeards who know the stuff who has done this stuff for decades now

335
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,680
from the beginning of internet and you know like solve these questions for us because

336
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,720
clearly there is something over here and we don't have enough information about it and luckily

337
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:02,880
for us the big brains and the grabeards actually came yes they actually did right so so we put a

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flag on the ground yeah machine networking and hardware and it's like if you like those things

339
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,680
just come just come and people actually came it's awesome it's awesome to see but let's jump

340
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back to the identity one SCCO 6 so yeah a big topic once of course agentic identity those kind of

341
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:28,560
things which we just touched on but another one was also key rotation key relation key compromise

342
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,840
what do you do yeah key rotation identity continuation there kind of similar things slightly

343
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different but we had so one of the things was about you know like what do we do like

344
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Noster for it to be deployed seriously to be considered seriously on a persistent level

345
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because we're talking about identities now and if you in any way a serious person who is

346
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,360
building a serious identity on top of Noster and something happens to your key

347
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,040
yeah even worse if you're a serious organization if you're a serious organization because then

348
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:11,200
you have to intern you have an intern social media intern yes right now like for my organizations

349
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:17,840
plural yeah I can't have a social media intern for any of those because I have to give them

350
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:23,680
the answer right and like what if it turns out it wasn't really bad intern then I have to kick

351
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,480
them out and it's like everything's terrible like you can't undo giving yes giving them the answer

352
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,360
and so that's definitely an issue we have to solve on the Noster side yeah Noster works really well

353
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:38,240
for reckless people right now yes doesn't work for organizations at all in some sense yeah unless

354
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,760
it's the you know like a single person organization yeah and like talk me through the proposals

355
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:50,080
that were made during the cohort and what people came up with so there were two main proposals

356
00:31:50,080 --> 00:32:01,680
regarding key rotation one was one was using cryptographic proofs and social attestation as a coherent

357
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:09,360
solution because we've had many proposals in the last few years talking about different ways

358
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of doing cryptographic proofs so that we can signal key rotation and the clients follow that or

359
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:22,720
Vitor for example had like you know its identity there's no cryptographic proof and it has to be

360
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:28,880
social and so he had a very radical solution like let's just do social attestation social only

361
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:35,920
no social only no cryptographic because if you get compromised your attacker can provide the same

362
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:42,400
proofs as you can yeah I think we have to differentiate between key loss and yes key compromise

363
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,840
yes exactly if someone steals your key it's a different scenario than you lost your key so that

364
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:53,280
is why I thought like my solution was like we need two parallel systems independent of each other

365
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:59,600
which can be combined to provide a stronger signal but they can also be used in different scenarios

366
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,320
depending on whether it's a loss whether it's a compromise and what you have available whether

367
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:09,680
you have set it up whether you have access to your whether it's a tragic loss of your key and you

368
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:16,880
know so there are many scenarios and you can't address everything in a very simple manner so

369
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:31,600
I picked up I kind of matched Pablo's 829 proposal with Haudenburg's and created a cryptographic

370
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:39,840
identity which was simpler and a social attestation taking a leaf from the door so that was one

371
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:45,840
proposal and I still have to very simply put it's a combined approach it's a combined your social

372
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:52,000
attestation but but with a cryptographic issue it just mixed in yes so you can enhance the cryptographic

373
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:59,200
proofs with social attestation but one one important distinction between the previous proposals versus

374
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:05,520
the one that I have is that all the previous proposals required the clients to do the heavy lifting

375
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:12,480
of yeah of keeping the shape together keep making sure that you know like it has been signaled

376
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:18,880
the dispute window is managed and when the dispute comes the clients actually have to show hey

377
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:25,280
you're following an old account this guy is now this other end pound yes and and not just that but

378
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:32,320
also manage and after the dispute window to to change the follow list yeah the old the old

379
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:39,440
notes and the old data as well yeah so it was a push change by clients to the users which is

380
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:46,160
always a bad thing for because a client can turn malicious any point at any point of time and

381
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:53,280
just can it's not a good thing a push thing is never a good thing so what I did was like instead of

382
00:34:53,840 --> 00:35:01,280
clients managing the state and stuff and pushing these changes it is up to the user so say you

383
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:08,800
know I lose my key and I send a migration event and the client all it has to do is that it has

384
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:15,360
to detect this kind and display to every single follower of mine that this person has signaled a

385
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:22,320
migration event and here is the details of that and you decide as a follow up what you want to do

386
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,600
whether you want to do it or not so you as a as a follower or a friend or a user will out of

387
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:34,640
band communicate with me and figure out if it is true or not right and then you will signal yes

388
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:40,320
in this migration event was good and it is legit and so you change your follow do the new key

389
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:47,760
and to Vitor's point we always need to do some sort of that you always need to do some sort of

390
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,240
out of band communication and verification because it doesn't matter what kind of system you come

391
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:56,800
up with because most other systems let's say you have a master key and you derive multiple identities

392
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,560
from the master key and so okay what if you lose your master key exactly same idea as with Bitcoin

393
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,600
right like you have your 12 words stamped in steel okay what if you lose that or what if that's

394
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:12,080
gets stolen like you're pretty much right so much you can do yeah so instead of and given enough

395
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:21,360
time you know if majority of or say a decent amount of followers of yours whoever did the migration

396
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:29,360
event change to the new identity the others using the WOT system that we have can see that now all

397
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:35,280
of these all of these followers have changed the new identity so maybe I should do it as well but

398
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:43,760
it gets murky and it's there is no solution to this kind of thing but it is this I didn't even tell

399
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:49,120
you to say that there's no solution there's only trade-offs the only thing you can do is like let

400
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,360
users decide wouldn't you have guessed yeah wouldn't you have guessed another another problem we

401
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,640
about yeah we're out clear solution exactly yeah that truly is that truly is no solution to that

402
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:05,920
not a not a clear and good one yeah without of course you know introducing a truss at third party

403
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:12,560
which is the we we revolve back the door and come to Facebook yeah if you want to do it right if

404
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:17,040
you want to build it probably and yeah we've actually used a self-servantate mind yeah there

405
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:22,640
isn't the good solution yeah the user has to be yeah you're responsible to some degree as well

406
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,440
yeah when you're when you're moving to a key based world a responsibility is on the user and they

407
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,480
have to be responsible yeah I mean it's just like with firearms right it's just like either the

408
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,640
fire more arm is actually able to harm someone else yeah which means it's also able to harm you

409
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:41,440
exactly which means you have to handle it responsibly exactly or it's just like whatever you know

410
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,440
like the children's toy and then it doesn't do you any good yeah it's the same same idea yeah let's

411
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,840
go here a little bit I still want to buy us a little bit more time because we are just at

412
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:56,720
SSEO 6 yeah I still have to update the site and see if I kind of get even all the projects in and so

413
00:37:56,720 --> 00:38:03,200
yeah but yeah there was another proposal yeah I was just about to ask so there was we went

414
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:08,240
through yours I think Jesus had something as well she's had another proposal which I actually like

415
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:15,520
a lot more because his proposal is very very simple and I don't think it's enough but still it

416
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:22,480
is great one his idea is that identity and signaling and all of these things are probabilistic even

417
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,280
if you have cryptographic in a way because there's always question and you have to out of band confirm

418
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:33,760
that is it a legit migration whether this is cryptographic or not right yeah so since it is

419
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:39,760
stochastic in that sense and you are you're always going to have to kind of make a judgment call

420
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:47,840
in a way his idea was that just have one kind and just have a kind of a threaded migration

421
00:38:50,720 --> 00:39:00,720
link so you would create a you would create a proof basically an OTS time stamp and you will keep

422
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:05,120
this proof with yourself and this proof and the assumption is that you do that before you got

423
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:10,640
compromised yes of course yeah yeah but that has to be the assumption yeah so you would keep

424
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:19,600
that and you don't have to define what is the future key and so you don't have to manage two

425
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,480
different keys and any of these things that was not the case and mine as well but if you when

426
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:31,360
you want to migrate you would refer to the previous proof like I prove and you you can do it with

427
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:37,120
any key so you don't know key management no derivation no none of these things you can just take

428
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:46,160
any new key and use the previous proof provide the say commitment so to speak a preimage rather

429
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:53,360
that this is the this was the old key which got compromised and my attacker has it or I lost it

430
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,960
or whatever this is my new one and this is how I'm proving continuation of my identity so instead

431
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:05,360
of key rotation he's like identity continuation yeah without having to deal with keys and also without

432
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,960
having to deal with the old notes for example yes we don't care about it we don't care about it like

433
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,400
what you what you're all that you posted in the past you're not going to migrate that over right

434
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:19,120
and even with any kind of key rotation like to to be to do all the to migrate all the old notes

435
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:25,040
and stuff like that's why it doesn't work it doesn't work it doesn't work it doesn't work because

436
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:31,760
just the not sure ideas are are self referential yeah and and like you can't you will change

437
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:38,640
the hashes by resigning them for you know really like and it's again no solutions yeah no solution

438
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:46,960
it's very easy his idea is is a very very simple one it is very very workable no client has to do

439
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:52,400
anything or even show people yeah you know and none of these things actually yeah related to that

440
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,000
I just saw that a couple days ago that was just like maybe a week ago or not even

441
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:03,520
pip the social graph guy who will build vertex yeah and he showed that a very primitive form of

442
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:11,040
identity continuation uh already works just based on web of thrust metrics alone okay um and he

443
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:18,240
he showcased it with one guy who um switched ampups right and the old account followed the new

444
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:22,800
account yeah and some other important people started following the new account as well yeah

445
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:28,080
and then if you search for the for the guy's name yeah the new account immediately shows up because

446
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:35,280
it has a high await on on patreon basically and and so we already have like these purely social

447
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:40,080
primitive mechanisms they already work absolutely use vertex that that will already work like

448
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:45,680
absolutely for example could alert you yeah um using vertex you know like hey it looks like

449
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:50,400
you're looking at them like half of your follow list is outdated then yeah that's when people move

450
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,120
to and so yeah so so that's interesting to see that multiple approaches kind of work and

451
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,520
Vitor is right in that sense like you know it's identity is a social thing and this should be good

452
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:05,760
and what uh Jesus proposes uh doing this identity continuation thing it is very simple very

453
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:12,400
uh implementable uh very easy for clients to integrate it and I think it's a very good proposal

454
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:18,720
for this um though I think uh there still needs to be some kind of a cryptographic way for us to

455
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:23,520
change identities because especially when we're talking about agentic and programmatic world

456
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:30,960
uh I think uh there's a use case over there I think for the agent stuff what you want to have is

457
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:37,040
um you want to link them together in some way yeah and also you want to think about

458
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,960
um what's the right word provisioning in some sense yeah like um

459
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,560
that's what I run into the most is like what and pubs can talk to each other and how do they

460
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,800
hang together if I build an agent hierarchy and I build it on master yeah like what's the

461
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,600
what agent can instruct other agents all those kind of things and so on so I think there's

462
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:04,720
something there also in terms of you know like the spawning sub account spawning sub agents I

463
00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:12,800
talked this about this very very briefly with with smarty um just yesterday that we already have

464
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,280
people like sir sleepy and other people and master the power users yeah and they have their main

465
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,840
account yeah but they have like three or four or five other accounts yeah and it's like one

466
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,480
account only posts classical music stuff one account only posts about trains one account only

467
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:34,000
posts about whatever like crazy memes and so on yeah and you still want to like in a traditional

468
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,560
social media context you might have a sub account system or those kind of things yes

469
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:43,680
and that all all these all these things hang loosely together in my mind where like for

470
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:48,240
example if I want to switch a client or if I get a new phone I just want to punch in one thing

471
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:52,800
and all my accounts are there that's for example yeah like right now because I have 15 different

472
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:58,160
insects or whatever it's like right now I have to put them manually yeah just getting a new phone

473
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:08,720
just because of that yeah yeah there was one more proposal which was very it makes a lot of

474
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:14,640
sense when you look at it from you know just a cryptographic point of view and has a lot of

475
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,920
but not for the use case of key rotation and stuff but for key management part of it because

476
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:25,920
it he makes we had another proposal using bpd5 for example for doing this stuff but

477
00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:32,480
that is part of the key management like these are many different components we're kind of

478
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:39,920
talking them as a composite thing but the key management part there's still a lot of work we can

479
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:45,840
do over there to make the UX easier and design clients in such a way that they actually provide

480
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,800
this kind of a easy way of what you're talking about not only clients but also signers yeah as

481
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:56,240
well signers as well yeah for sure we had the portal team here right yeah it was also I think in

482
00:44:56,240 --> 00:45:03,440
the same week that the cards started primal released their signing abilities yes yes and so that's

483
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,920
definitely on it is on the client side as well but it's also on the signer sign yes for me it's

484
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,320
just awesome to see that we actually have signers yeah and we have multiple signers and there's

485
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:18,640
even hardware signer projects and so on I know Ben from Ellen Bitts was hacking on a hardware

486
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,600
base not for signer and all those kind of things yeah so yeah it's just awesome to see the

487
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:31,040
yeah we had we had another guy participant who actually made a firmware update like a custom

488
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:36,320
firmware for treasure and started using that as a hardware signer yeah awesome yeah I remember

489
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:43,600
yeah yeah there was only one treasure guy yeah awesome let's switch gears a little bit so

490
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:51,520
um we're experimenting right now with shorter cohort durations yeah so SCCO 6 was three weeks only

491
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:56,640
yeah in the beginning we had we had eight weeks which I think is might be a week or two too long

492
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:02,560
yeah yeah but the right now the regular cohort duration is six weeks yes which I think is

493
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:07,040
pretty perfect yes because it takes a week or two to get up and running and to get the group going

494
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:12,560
and kind of get the get all the ideas out on the table and then you start putting the pieces back

495
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,680
together basically and like Justin mentioned that as well like it really takes up steam in like

496
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:26,160
weeks three four and five yes and and how do you think did the three weeks go for SCCO 6 was it

497
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:31,920
a worthwhile experiment did we learn anything we did we did learn that three weeks is not enough

498
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:39,120
three weeks was just like a warm-up what ended what ended up happening was like we all came

499
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:46,400
for SEC it's kind of like a pilgrimage kind of a situation by now everybody comes from the

500
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:52,240
the outside world into this bubble and it takes them a while to adjust yeah it takes them a while to

501
00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:57,440
adjust right and the first two three weeks is just like okay we are back in this thing and like

502
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,240
now we're starting to get into the groove and by the time we got in the groove it was the end of

503
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:10,240
SCCO 6 right which kind of which kind of actually helps SCCO 7 because everybody's geared up and

504
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:16,000
everybody's fired up and like SCCO 7 first week was fucking fantastic yeah we hit the ground running

505
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:22,320
this was sure I think it was one of the most energetic first weeks we had yes and yeah it's

506
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:28,080
awesome to see that we have a bit of spillover so people don't come in blank basically but obviously

507
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:34,000
the topic is related mesh networks and hardware because you need identity for mesh networks as well

508
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:40,720
like some form of who is what device and like how do devices connect to each other and so on yeah

509
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:47,200
but obviously it's a very different topic and we have a about half alumni half new people yeah

510
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:54,000
and it's awesome to see like I think the the three weeks of SCCO 7 they like

511
00:47:54,880 --> 00:48:00,960
like we have something cooking yes oh yeah oh yeah so it's going to be massive hitting the

512
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:07,200
ground running then three weeks might be enough yeah like yeah yeah yeah but I think it's a like

513
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:13,760
six weeks is good or maybe you know like if we wanted to it still is like if we want a smaller one

514
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:19,360
I think minimum four weeks three weeks is not not not good yeah it takes a while to get the

515
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,360
brain chooses flowing and get the experiments up and running and so but the six week thing is

516
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:31,040
just about one second well so we have two weeks left yeah for SCCO 7 yeah and then we'll have a

517
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:36,080
little bit of a break yeah and then we'll have yellow plus plus we'll have yellow plus weeks in the

518
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:45,360
six weeks yeah so yeah can we announce that already is that still a secret no it's already

519
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:51,920
you know that we are gonna know I mean oh yeah yeah yeah no it is it is already announced okay so

520
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:58,080
we're gonna conclude with BTC plus plus in there yeah after the core after the summer cohort yeah

521
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,160
so that's gonna be amazing of course that's gonna be awesome yeah yeah so lots of people are

522
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:09,120
gonna be here oh yeah nifty is gonna be here yeah we'll have a we'll have a kind of big party at

523
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:15,840
a big party yeah it's gonna be like the it's gonna be BTC plus plus so yeah like kind of a good

524
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:24,800
people here primer for the next conference to on on malaria so that's a good one yeah yeah that's

525
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,920
right we have behind the lanterns coming up as well yeah yeah it's already been four years almost

526
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:37,280
almost next coming next coming next conference and yeah this is actually going to be the first

527
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:44,560
demo day first public demo day after cycle one at BTC plus plus yeah yeah yeah yeah let's see how

528
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:49,600
we go that's gonna be interesting let's see how you go yeah no I'm excited lots of lots of good people

529
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:55,120
are gonna come yeah so with lots of we're gonna have lots of alumni for the summer one hopefully some

530
00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:00,880
new and motivated people as well yeah and like you said you know it's it's kind of turning into

531
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:06,560
a book pilgrimage yeah it's kind of a place you want to go to just to hack on certain things

532
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:13,360
with a bunch of crazy people yeah and just see what comes out yeah and like more and more like it's

533
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:22,080
it's it's like the same kind of faces kind of end up showing a lot of times so it's good yeah we're

534
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:33,280
just gonna do it in India or some other place one day oh yeah we must do a summer

535
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,600
engineering at some other places yeah we're gonna we're gonna branch out eventually yeah I

536
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:43,440
I you know it's already it's already bubbling on the first yeah on the surface people are eager to

537
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:48,560
yeah take the program somewhere else and and do it at a different place yeah I think one of the

538
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:54,560
most important things is it should be a relatively high barrier to entry in terms of getting to the

539
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:59,600
place yes and second of all it should be very hard to leave yeah because like you said it takes a

540
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:05,680
while it takes a week of orientation until you like I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people

541
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,840
that came and were like what the fuck is going on what the fuck is this doesn't make any sense yeah

542
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:14,320
and if they would have the opportunity to leave in the first two days they would they probably would

543
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,960
yes just like enter a train and it's like a fuck this I'm out of here yeah so you have to get

544
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,760
with it a little bit yeah and like you know like when people are confused why are we going on hikes

545
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:29,360
yeah like what does this have to do with yeah engineering yeah yeah it's like but they don't

546
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:35,520
understand that if you pack a group of people on a three hour hike yeah and keep it compact enough

547
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:40,480
all that people can do is talk yeah you think about this stuff you want to build and you're talking

548
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:45,520
about it and people are you know like they they don't really understand what's going on and what

549
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:51,200
they are doing yeah but they are discussing the next big thing without even knowing it and also like

550
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:57,120
like we kind of have a structure but we don't have a structure we have to do a lot of

551
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:03,920
according to some people yeah I got accused by another Indian guy like all the Indian guys are up

552
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:09,360
proxies he's like what's going on I thought there was an anarchist problem why is there so much

553
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:17,600
structure why do we have like a nine to twelve structure with no anyway so uh but that's as advertised

554
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:22,720
like it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a program with a little bit of structure so Monday

555
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:30,080
to Wednesday nine to twelve yeah with Monday orientation Tuesday talks Wednesday workshops

556
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:35,120
Thursday's time off yeah Friday demo day it's just the afternoon that's the first week and from

557
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:40,560
second week on Monday we go on hikes so yeah yeah but the first week we also go on a hike it's

558
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:47,200
just like an easy it's a walk it's a it's a nice walk beautiful walk and you and and you will

559
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:52,480
see the tunnel that you keep hearing about where the bus does lie and everything yes yes yes yes

560
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:58,640
yeah people like the tunnel it brings its own sound effects yeah but yeah no I'm glad that it's

561
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:03,600
working and every single cohort something useful comes out like that's the that's the goal for me

562
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:08,560
personally that's the goal yeah for sure like we want to see stuff actually shipped yeah it makes it

563
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:15,840
production quote-unquote if such a thing exists on us sir but basically something that gets used

564
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:20,160
and for me it's just awesome to see now like n-sites have a big resurgence oh yeah

565
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:24,320
sandwich went ham on them and yeah and like lots of people are deploying stuff to n-site now oh yeah

566
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:30,960
the default for demos is deploying it on an n-site now yeah exactly and just you know like blossom

567
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:36,400
came out of the cohorts n-site came out of the cohorts we have lots of stuff that came out of here

568
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:43,200
like nip 60 61 of course and like just not so and so on and it's awesome to just see this out

569
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:48,080
in the wild and people picking it up and using it and running with it and so on so that's that's

570
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:56,240
always the hope yeah all right last last section we're now at SEC07 right what can you tell me about

571
00:53:56,240 --> 00:54:00,800
the first week what happened what did we see what was some of the demos that you liked first

572
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:09,680
demo day we had well we have reached a point where we are now having FIPS parties not land parties

573
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:16,960
so we have been hacking our way at FIPS which is a free internet working peering system not

574
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:24,320
something else you might have heard and it's a it's a new way to peer between between different

575
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:32,400
devices and machine network working protocol and now there's been a lot of stuff that happened on

576
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:41,040
FIPS in fact FIPS has been integrated into an ESP32 radio yeah it was one of the demos yeah radio

577
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:52,480
mixnet so nip network is FIPS is running on top of nip network then we have TCP

578
00:54:52,800 --> 00:55:00,480
TCP UDP of course we have VPNs being built on top of FIPS now we have so

579
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:06,720
Marty is migrating not every yet oh yeah yeah Marty is also doing that stuff on on top of FIPS he

580
00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:14,240
wants to integrate not the VPN and FIPS we have tour on top of FIPS now yeah Thomas showed off a

581
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:20,960
drawing board that ran on on FIPS and tour right where people can collaborate literally yes

582
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:26,000
wrong canvas yeah and you can only connect either via FIPS or via tour yeah and it is kind of

583
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:31,760
insane like we talked about FIPS I mean we're cheating a little bit we have the FIPS guy here yeah

584
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:36,960
we have the FIPS guy so we're blessed that Jonathan came and yeah oh my god can't help everyone

585
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,880
without him this would not have been like where we are today but like in sacrifice when we

586
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:46,160
were discussing this we were like oh this would be so awesome maybe someday in the future in five

587
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:52,080
years maybe we will get to something like FIPS and then Jonathan comes on the on the scene yeah

588
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:58,080
and came out of retirement yeah he came out of retirement right he started discussing this thing

589
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:05,360
in November and then February hey guys I was just working on something and here you know just

590
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:12,960
install this FIPS is ready I'm like what like what and from February to now which is almost like

591
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:18,400
six weeks I something like that we have all of these things being built on top of FIPS already

592
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:25,600
and it's not over like because now we are waiting for the next and this is still like a toy FIPS

593
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:31,200
in a way yeah yeah so then there's gonna be a next he's actually a little bit mad that people are

594
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:36,480
building so much stuff on it already because he's not ready he still has to he still has to break it

595
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:41,600
once or twice and he and because he comes from the old school right like oh we should have a flag day

596
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:46,000
and we should let people know that we are going to have breakfast push to main break it

597
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:51,120
no no fuck it you know just push to master fuck it up yeah everybody has no one to subgrade yeah

598
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:55,360
nobody cares it's still a five project nobody gives a fuck the eight people that know about it are all

599
00:56:55,360 --> 00:57:03,360
here it's fine so we'll be fine exactly so so yeah FIPS is fucking insane incredible stuff and

600
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:10,640
away like FIPS gives me a lot of hope in a way as well because we finally have a way where we can

601
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:17,440
get rid of the entire centralized internet stack yeah everyone agrees that DNS is just DNS is a

602
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:27,840
shit coin too yeah to not only paraphrase but exactly quote Jonathan yeah yeah yeah IPv4 definitely

603
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:36,640
yeah and yeah so it's incredible that we have this and that by the time psycho psycho 7 finishes

604
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:44,800
I think we'll have a pretty decent substrate yeah of FIPS like a solid substrate because he

605
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:51,120
intends to do this breaking changes during the next two weeks and when is the when is the when

606
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:56,160
is the quick three FIPS party again oh it's in the afternoon today yeah today yeah and tomorrow

607
00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:03,040
probably as well yeah of course thanks so we have a we have a quick three we have a quick three

608
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:07,200
server running on FIPS oh yes right oh yeah we have a quick three so we're running on FIPS and

609
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:14,400
everybody's just congregating at NOSTER office to have a FIPS party yeah yeah let's go yeah let's

610
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:19,280
go yeah we're not gonna bring back Clamp parties but we can you know bring them back

611
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:25,680
to my FIPS just you know my mesh parties yeah mesh parties it's just you know like 24th century

612
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:33,120
LAN parties let's do one more round out here and I think we'll end it at the at the Ford and then

613
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:39,280
I'm all cooked yeah and I'm I'll have to run anyway otherwise I'll leave my flight yeah unfortunately

614
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:45,040
yeah unfortunately I have to leave yeah um but I'll be back very soon I'll just be gone for a

615
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:50,720
couple days I just have to take care of family matters yeah and I'm excited to see what everyone

616
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:56,240
has been cooking up one time back oh yeah and you'll fill me in on on the hike on Monday yeah

617
00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:03,440
and then we'll see we'll have to let's go here that's that's the path now okay and then we'll

618
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:09,360
yeah I have to final them today and then we see where we're at yeah to me it's just awesome that

619
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:18,400
you know like we the the whole point of summer engineering was how can we bring awesome people

620
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:24,160
together yeah without a lot of work for us in some sense yeah without you know like millions of

621
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:29,280
dollars in funding like how can we bootleg all this without driving anybody exactly you know and

622
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,280
just attractor right people yeah and to me it's just awesome that is working and I hope that it

623
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:37,600
will continue to work for people will just come just just for the heck of it it's just like

624
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:42,720
just want to meet cool people and have good conversations and have good food yeah the most

625
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:47,200
awesome thing for me is like everyone has this project in the back of my head that they always

626
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:52,000
wanted to build yeah and they never did because there was always an excuse yeah once you're at

627
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:58,000
summer engineering there's no excuse you have a couple weeks you have all the brain power in the world

628
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:03,680
yeah you know you have all the vibe coding credits in the world yes and you can just go hand yeah

629
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:09,040
and you can learn from people like just everyone else like yeah how do you how do you build a project

630
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,480
in like three days I mean if you if you're if you're not even into vibe coding if you just are

631
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:18,640
just have good ideas and don't know technically like you could come over here you could

632
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:24,000
you have access to all of these people just talk to them all of them everyone is an ex

633
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:28,800
so called we had the signers building cool shit yes exactly last quarter the c06 we have

634
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:36,080
this project manager building silent payments over not so so you know like if you have good

635
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:42,080
ideas like you have all the brain talent over here and ability over here to interact with and

636
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:47,680
actually build something that you could you could realize that you've been thinking of for years

637
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:52,720
in years yeah and who knows where it goes you know like we we don't put any restrictions on the

638
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:56,720
projects or anything like that you can take it wherever you want to take it yeah and if you

639
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:04,080
rob's contribution is going to be it is going to be the reason why silent payments is integrated in

640
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:09,760
in sparrow anyway yeah hopefully and jumper even and that's that's the point like he actually

641
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:14,720
already did I think yeah yeah that's the point it's like have the right idea get it out into the wild

642
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:20,880
even if it is built in a again like we we're just aiming for the 80% that's generous like as we

643
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:26,080
want to push it over 50% yes if it's the right idea even if it's like insecure and just vibe to

644
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:30,160
get a garbage no one cares yeah if someone like Craig raw picks it up and integrates it into

645
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:36,000
sparrow like that's it yeah that's what we are done yeah we don't have to at least you get the

646
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:40,720
conversation going and move the needle and that is the yeah and and that's why but that's why

647
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:48,080
the demos are so important to me because just having ideas is everyone has ideas yes if you're

648
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:53,920
forced to build it out and and show a working prototype yeah then you you can you can you have

649
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,600
something in your hands and you know how the thing looks and feels and can it work and doesn't

650
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:02,480
make sense and you have to like you know actually clarify the idea in your head what do you actually

651
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:08,320
want and what does it need for your idea to be realized and you come across all of these different

652
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:12,480
problems that you will solve and you have people to discuss with and yeah you'll find

653
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,320
solutions to that even more than that like because oftentimes if you just build something out

654
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:21,920
yourself yeah I think that's also not enough but you being forced in the time span of six minutes

655
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:27,840
to explain it to 20 other people yeah that are hypocritical yeah that is the important part

656
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:32,800
that really does it's like how can you explain the crazy idea that you have in like five minutes

657
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:40,480
to to a room full of you know very opinionated Oh yeah that's that's a feature it's a big feature

658
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:46,640
yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah no I love it I love that it that it works and continues to work

659
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:51,760
so what's your plan for for the next two weeks you have any demos in mind already

660
01:02:52,400 --> 01:03:00,720
well I started on putting classic games on yeah you deploy do on an inside I

661
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:06,720
deploy do on an inside so yeah so I just want to make sure that it works on mobile

662
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:12,480
properly so I have to write the holy touch controls for that thing so I'll do that and see

663
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:19,600
see if other games I want to do or something else but you're gonna lean into the

664
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:25,760
fifth slam party game oh yeah absolutely let's bring it back you know we need to have we need to

665
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:35,200
make a north to fun again in a way so it's not fun right now well it is it's all right yeah it can

666
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:44,400
be fun it can be more fun for sure I saw Pete's kid he's doing some good stuff on games yeah games

667
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:49,200
stir and stuff yeah yeah shout out to Pete he put a lot of games yeah he put a lot of games

668
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:58,160
so that was an inspiration yeah yeah but I was also thinking of like I have a couple of ideas

669
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:06,160
on Fips that I want to discuss with Jonathan see if my ideas actually make sense or they're just

670
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:14,960
a dog shit but yeah I want to focus on Fips as well you're not alone you're not alone all the

671
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:22,080
talking people are focused on Fips is right now yeah and what do you think about the balloon idea

672
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:33,120
of corporate or as insane as it is makes me want to do it more because I actually think that if

673
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:38,960
that chip works it's not crazy so there it's it's similar it's a poor man's Starlink

674
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:47,280
putting toll gates on balloons it's the gorilla man's Starlink you know so it's yeah it's great

675
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:56,080
you could you could be as fancy as you want but this is you know at the end of the day we are all

676
01:04:56,080 --> 01:05:04,080
choked by the fiber optic cables running all along the the earth and Elon Musk's generosity

677
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:10,320
and stuff like that if we're truly do we serve sovereign like we need a way to communicate as well

678
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:18,320
because all the radio bands are licensed yeah so what else do you have right yeah so that leaves

679
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:24,240
just balloons yes toll gates on balloons yes you think we're gonna see it I have to feeling that he's

680
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:30,800
just gonna manage he can be very convincing yeah he has a neck he has a neck for pulling people

681
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:36,480
into his crazy idea yeah yeah and then you realize as soon as you get in like why the fuck did I

682
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:47,280
even agree to this yeah but it's a it's a good one I would like to see and it's not expensive so

683
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:54,960
you know it's very much doable all right yeah all right so that's the end at the end of the

684
01:05:54,960 --> 01:06:00,400
we're at the end of the road yeah the end of the road yeah yeah that's my my favorite spot by the way

685
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:06,880
okay that's my basically clearing my head getting away from everything kind of fun okay

686
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:12,640
nice right yeah it's a nice spot and I'm always at the very end where you know with all the other

687
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:17,840
drug addicts so they just don't know the kinds of drugs so interesting I'm just like it's

688
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:22,800
talking to me it's talking to me who would have thought that I got addicted to tokens yeah after

689
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:27,360
not shit-coining for so long oh yeah now I'm addicted to tokens yeah we had this conversation as

690
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:33,840
well about tokens the other day like why are we calling them tokens but unfortunately it is

691
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:42,000
it comes from mathematics so it is what it is yeah it is what it is yeah yeah so beautiful

692
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:46,720
Madera yeah wide and open sea you're still exploring we're still exploring that's what it is yeah

693
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:52,880
thanks for thanks for taking up the call yeah and searing that ship yeah and doing sovereign

694
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:57,920
engineering with us I really mean it thanks it's lighting yeah yeah we always end on the hug yes

695
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:03,040
and then I have to I have to find the phone to actually hit safe and see if we're so recording