1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,680 all right let's do it we're live basically i mean it's not really live it's just we are we 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:11,760 are hopefully recording it looks good so cool alive alive and live yeah a little little break 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:17,520 from the spectacle you know nice walk with some water cool some ducklings and you chose a good 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:22,400 spot you chose a good spot i know my way around these woods you chose i've been here i've been 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:29,360 here once or twice before yeah it's incredible so i told you i'm gonna grab you and i'm gonna 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:37,680 basically just kidnap you for like an hour or so i am kidnapped i'm officially and you know what gg 7 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,160 does now in his spare time that is my new hobby it's kidnapping people and taking them it's official 8 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:49,680 yeah okay yeah and uh we're gonna talk about design yeah let's talk about design because um yeah i think 9 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,800 a lot of things have changed in the last couple of years and now we not only vibe coding with vibe 10 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,680 designing as well i see it everywhere yeah and i'm sure you have opinions i have opinions so tell me 11 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,640 your opinions where do we stand in terms of bitcoin design design in the nostril space all those kind 12 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:13,200 of things let's go so i'll start with what i've been learning i've been seeing that i i no longer need 13 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:19,280 to call myself a ux designer i can instead call myself an artist i'm going to be totally down with 14 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:25,520 you and be like an artist is someone who creates an artist is someone who creates their life an artist is 15 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:32,160 someone who creates in the ecosystem right now my role has changed in the ecosystem and i am creating 16 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:39,360 designing using ai in the bitcoin ecosystem as well as in the nostril ecosystem all right so your plan 17 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,520 for the next one or two years is to be really poor 18 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:52,000 gg that's what artists are no like no one ever want any bread being an artist or have things changed 19 00:01:52,000 --> 00:02:00,640 no i mean you know i don't even know who said it but but it's like artists you know i believe alex 20 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:05,280 glassine said it on stage as well or one of the other speakers said it's like everyone is an artist 21 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:12,480 but everyone is living life is art living life is art yeah and so for me i see design outside of the 22 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:21,040 narrow spectrum of what we think design is i see design as the moment the person actually sees the 23 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:28,880 thing in the app store i see design as the moment you tell your friend about the thing and you're like 24 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:34,560 referring them to it that's design something hooks you and it hooks you enough that you want to tell your 25 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,880 friends about it yeah and the thing that i i was saying to jeff the other day i was like hey 26 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:46,160 if you can explain in one sentence to a five-year-old or a ten-year-old what your thing is that you're 27 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:52,400 building and what problem it solves well then you've got something good yeah and i think we need to get 28 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:58,560 a lot of the the applications that we're building in the bitcoin ecosystem and the nostril ecosystem to 29 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:03,200 that point yeah can you really explain what you're doing like what problem does it solve in people's lives 30 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:08,160 i can't my my family doesn't even know what i'm doing so i obviously can't explain what i'm doing 31 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:13,440 so before i even start with the design process i kind of i try to get the developers that i'm working 32 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:20,560 with to narrow it down to what problem are you solving and for who and you ask people that most of the 33 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:27,360 time they don't know yeah and i've been listening to a lot of jack's podcasts as well and jack keeps on 34 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:35,200 coming back with one thing he's like can you say it with one word what is that thing that you do like 35 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:42,800 is it communication is it data is it i don't know you can say it with one word really so it's about 36 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:50,320 narrowing down the scope of what you're building and bringing it to one profound action that solves a 37 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:56,880 profound problem in a user's life okay and it might be education it might be whatever assets 38 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,600 in the bitcoin world or what have you and then you move into design yeah i see then you think 39 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,640 about like okay so like what do they need to do like what's the steps you know we're walking on 40 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:11,280 this beautiful river right now like next to this beautiful river it's like what are the steps that 41 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,720 they need to take to solve that problem and that's like your user experience right that's like all 42 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:21,920 the clicks they're going to take that's the road you're walking them on so the experience of the 43 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:29,120 person starts before they even start looking at the interface yeah yeah yeah yeah i see i see it's 44 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:34,640 it's it's about pain and i think we need to know more about what what pain point are you solving what 45 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:40,640 pain are we solving and the design that's just one part of it but we have like um in the netherlands 46 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:46,320 there's this app it's called tiki it's become a household name it does one thing the only thing it does 47 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:54,560 is it if we go it's basically going to be like i send you like a like a link and you just pay half 48 00:04:54,560 --> 00:05:02,080 yeah it's so easy yeah right that's where we need to get to get mainstream adoption of bitcoin and 49 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:09,040 nostril applications we need it to become like a we need to become a a word that people just use they 50 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:14,080 don't even call it it becomes an adjective really yeah you know i think the issue with that is that bitcoin 51 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,720 solves like i i love the phrase bitcoin is different things to different people like that's been my go 52 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,440 to thing for the last 10 years or whatever and what this translates to in that framework is like 53 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,240 bitcoin solves different pain points for different people right it's like because if you live 54 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,160 through hyperinflation then i don't need to explain bitcoin to you like at least not that aspect of 55 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,400 bitcoin if you get debanked all the time i don't need to explain bitcoin totally like the 56 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:43,360 permissionless aspect of it to you and so on so how are you thinking about all of that like the various use cases 57 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:50,080 in the like app and services ecosystem which you've been very close to for a long time i'm i'm on it 58 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:56,080 okay so i'm gonna come back to jack again i have been obsessed with the most recent podcast that he 59 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:02,720 recorded every single company in the world is becoming a mini agi all right did you hear that 60 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:07,680 podcast no i don't listen to podcasts i just kidnap people and talk into a microphone i have listened to 61 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:12,880 that podcast three times guess who got me to listen to the podcast jeff because every single time jeff 62 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,880 sends me a message i end up going down like a rabbit hole that i didn't expect to go down and then 63 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:23,280 three hours later i come out of the rabbit hole i'm like jeff what did you say so so i went down the 64 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:28,560 rabbit hole as i was coming here i was listening to the podcast so the thesis is just to summarize 65 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:33,440 intelligence at the center okay of every business super simple so that's what block did yeah that's what 66 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,760 block is doing yeah so block that's what allowed them to slash like 40 percent of their workforce 67 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:46,640 right and if a million dollar company like block is using an intelligence layer to build its product 68 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:53,040 and to move its product forward in the market and to find more market products well hey we need to be 69 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:58,880 we as the ecosystem need to be listening to that so here's what i think i think that the way that 70 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:08,400 design is moving forward in the future is that if we can have a mini agi in the nostril ecosystem we have 71 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:16,320 a mini agi in bitcoin ecosystem the mini agi is essentially as simple as this there's data in the agi 72 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:24,080 the developers talk to the data they found the information that they need and they build solutions 73 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,600 based on the data that they're so if you understand you correctly what you're describing is basically 74 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:35,120 the bitcoin design initiative but automated yes so it's going to go in two directions the bitcoin 75 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,600 design guide one of my roles right now in the ecosystem is basically turning the bitcoin design 76 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:46,240 guide essentially into a skill file yeah and then developers basically just popping that skill file 77 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,720 into the development process yeah i see and building wallets yeah and then the other part of my role that 78 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:55,120 i'm doing this year is i'm collecting user stories from all over the world about how people are using 79 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:00,480 bitcoin how people are using ai i'm gonna pop that into a skill file developers can do it so we're 80 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:06,000 moving we're walking next to the developers in their process we're not saying hey go read this like 81 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:11,200 60 page article while you're building your wallet as a solo founder it's not going to work 82 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:18,080 we need to be in time so here's what i think i believe every single company in the world 83 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:25,280 is going to have the smart companies are going to have a mini agi layer everyone's going to talk to 84 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:30,960 the layer and as jack said they're going to find they're going to let the users determine the 85 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:37,840 direction of the product and that flattens this hierarchy right because then you're so close to 86 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,880 the ceo before you walk into a meeting with the ceo the truth the data is already very accessible for 87 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:51,520 everyone yeah and if we can create a mini agi at the ecosystem level for bitcoin and for nostr dude 88 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:58,720 so what you're saying is you're in favor of mob rule what's that mob rule being ruled by the mob 89 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,840 if the users can decide what kind of features they're gonna have in the product i don't totally want 90 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:08,960 them to decide but it's like okay let's say you're like you you have a nostr app yeah let's say you 91 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:14,960 have a nostr app and all your users file things like you can like build stuff based on what they're 92 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:23,760 saying so the customer is always right no no i like that was a quick no you also got to listen to your 93 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,800 own like vision as the person who's building so there's a balance to be found somewhere there needs to be a 94 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:35,680 balance but i am properly bullish on the mini agi concept in fact at the hackathon that we were just 95 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:43,760 in i kind of built a simplistic version of that on nostr relays dope tell me more about that we built 96 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,560 how how was the experience for you going through the hackathon and i ended up with a nostr developer 97 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:56,880 as are we allowed to name names um maybe not let's just let's just keep it anonymous secret 98 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:05,280 and another developer and he helped me now forgive me i don't know about all the bips and the nips and 99 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:12,880 all the things yeah but anyway he we basically built the flow where it analyzes all the different bitcoin 100 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:18,320 wallets you pull in like the top on-chain bitcoin walls you pull the repos in you check what the users 101 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:24,800 are saying like hey this is not working or this is not working and then we split the data into 102 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:32,560 protocol stuff or ux stuff this is dope now because now we know in the wallet ecosystem like 103 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:39,840 is it stuff more in the protocol layer or is it like a quick fix in the ux layer right so we sorted 104 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:46,400 through the data we pulled it in we wrote the data onto nostr relays we use some nostr nip or bip 105 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:53,120 to do the labeling because it already exists and it's now public like the repo's there i just need 106 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:58,720 to clone the repo and tweak the labeling structure and then i build the same thing for bitcoin and i 107 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:06,800 build the same thing for nostr and then we have like super useful information so i'm i'm very i'm 108 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:13,760 proper bullish on this mini agi thing and data thing okay and i know it's not like design but i believe that 109 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:22,000 that's how we're gonna like move into design and how does that move into design so imagine this 110 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:28,480 and i'm i'm like going full full go go i'm going full stream that's the reason why we go like you 111 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:35,680 just go full stream futuristic now yeah okay imagine imagine there's a startup let's just for instance 112 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:42,720 take a nostr application that has for some reason like they got like hundreds and thousands of users 113 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,880 you got your developers you got ux design is going to see okay 114 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:51,680 the mini agi operates at the center it's going to pull in all of the data 115 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:57,840 then when it pulls in all of the data it's going to be like okay this is related to the settings okay 116 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:03,280 this is related to the privacy okay this is related to the onboarding okay this is related to send this 117 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:10,320 this is related to messages it's going to just link it link it link it link it and then the developer 118 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:18,080 the team opens it up and they're like yo we've had like 80 of our complaints coming from privacy in the 119 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:24,320 last six months let's just work on our privacy so it's like this this data layer is going to like 120 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:32,320 save them so much of time they're not going to need to look at individual like ux issues because i know 121 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:38,080 how the the the developers in the bitcoin space and the north space struggle to like what do you 122 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:43,280 prioritize and i'd love to hear that from you as well like how do you decide what you want to prioritize 123 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:48,080 when you're building something because you're usually just the people just walk up and you're like yeah 124 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:54,640 vibes pure vibes you know if you can just build that cool thing i'll be so happy just build it you know 125 00:12:54,640 --> 00:13:00,800 it's a hard problem it's it's a very hard problem and and i i kind of wanna wanna get you talking on 126 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:08,000 kind of the problem space itself like why is it so hard to design for bitcoin in the first place like 127 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:13,760 why is bitcoin design a thing can't you just like hire any design agency and you're just off to the races 128 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:22,240 no absolutely not why we have a major psychological barrier why is it so hard aren't people with like 129 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:27,760 just experts at holding keys and stuff like talk me through it like what are the issues why is why 130 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:33,600 why is bitcoin why is bitcoin so hard to design for we're so okay let me just put it in like super 131 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:41,120 simple terms we're saying to people hey we have like this magic internet money like don't worry you 132 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:47,680 can't hold it in your hand but just don't worry like it's on your phone come use it don't worry it's 133 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:52,880 okay if you lose your phone if you lose your phone you lose everything oh and by the way like put your 134 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:59,440 savings into it yeah you know here's the 12 words and here's the 12 words just put your savings into it 135 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:05,760 like seriously yeah and then we want people to use it from all over the world yeah like don't take a picture 136 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:14,800 afterwards don't ever press copy write it in hand writing okay step it into steel like tech tech people yeah sure we know how to 137 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,520 we know how to set up our hardware whatever hardware wallet we know how to do our tech stacks and all that 138 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:26,240 but like a normal everyday person like you know so the biggest barrier why is it so hard to design for bitcoin 139 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:34,480 it's because our users have psychological barriers to using this technology that we're building 140 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,400 and i don't honestly think that we're addressing those psychological barriers 141 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:45,200 enough in the design process so like one of the things i did yesterday in my vibe design session 142 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:54,000 i pretty much i created the skill file that you can basically just hand over like it's my brain i'll 143 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,760 tell you how i made the skill file by the way it's my brain like dumped as a skill like as a skill file 144 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,160 you basically take the skill file you run it through it's specifically made for bitcoin and lightning 145 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:10,160 wallets by the way it's based i guess on the work you did on bitcoin design there is like with all the 146 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:17,040 how do you present the seed phrase how do you onboard a user to a bitcoin wallet uh how do you show a 147 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:22,240 balance you know what is a set and like all that it's like it's all those like and then within that 148 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:27,840 i baked in all of these psychological barriers that i've come across yeah having speaking to like so 149 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:37,600 many like people why do i need to store the backup if my wallet is empty right so it's like so the way 150 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:45,440 design is moving now we are going to have design on steroids we are going to have agentic design 151 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,840 and we're just at the beginning of it and here's here's what i think it's going to look like i like 152 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:55,440 how bullish you are okay here's what i think so i i'm just one step away i just need to i just need 153 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:00,640 to vibe code the flow in n8n so here's what i'm going to be playing around with my new playground 154 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,280 i'm going to go to cloud code i'm going to ask you to build the agentic flow for me i'm going to 155 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:11,280 copy paste the code into n8n i'm going to build an agentic flow here's what vibe design is going to 156 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:19,520 look like in the bitcoin ecosystem you take the screenshots of the wallets you upload it into my 157 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:29,520 skill file on cloud as the developer you can ask it to prepare the design in the code of your code base 158 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:36,720 so if your code base is in react native hey prepare prepare the design suggestions using react native 159 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:48,560 okay vibe design on steroids and flow skill files baked in ux designer takes screenshots uploads the 160 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:54,800 screenshots into it says execute at 12 o'clock when i'm sleeping can run in the cloud yeah okay okay 161 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:05,760 it executes me i go in i review i review the ux suggestions i yay or nay i delete yeah i ask my 162 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:11,840 agent to create a github submission yeah in the same code base on front-end code base as the wallet 163 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:18,720 click filed yeah done yeah i think that's where it's trending i mean that's basically how i've been 164 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,600 working the last couple months i just create github issues and i will add screenshots if necessary and so on 165 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:30,000 and i just have cron jobs running every night like pick any open github issue and fix it and so 166 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,720 basically you just delay your prompts in some sense this is literally ux design on steroids i'm 167 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:40,480 not saying that we can eliminate the ux designer because you need to have the human review at certain 168 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,960 points in the process because otherwise it's clear you're you're leading into my next question which is 169 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:56,160 like you you're aware of the word of the year oh no no no no it's slop oh oh yeah so so if you know a 170 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:01,200 little bit about writing you'll spit you'll spot uh written slop instantly if you know a little bit 171 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:06,000 about photography you will know gen you'll know this generated photography those kind of things oh yeah 172 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:12,480 and if you know a little bit about design you'll notice design slop instantly like for example for 173 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:18,880 whatever reason uh claude opus really likes like these pills like if there's pills everywhere yeah 174 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:24,320 then it's just like okay there was like opus 4.7 or whatever or whatever we have now and like there's 175 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:30,640 like every model has their like favorite kind of ui thingies and i just take a look and it's like okay 176 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:37,760 yeah like that that was gpt 5.4 or whatever okay how to eliminate ai slops exactly address two areas 177 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:44,160 what are you gonna do about the sloppy pasta one is copy right because copy is design yeah okay one is 178 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:49,200 actual like so you tell the i don't write like an ai so here's what i do i'm gonna speak from personal 179 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:56,240 like personal thing yeah i have a sub stack which has like my human writing yeah which i've been doing 180 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:03,120 for over two years now i ask ai to reference all of my sub stack posts yeah which i human write in your 181 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:08,480 voice and it writes it in my voice it does a pretty amazing job okay step number one so that's copy 182 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:15,120 that's how you reduce ai slop like as me as a ux designer you know producing these this is not a 183 00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:21,840 lightning wallet it's a revolution oh my god ai hallucinates big time dude okay so that's the first 184 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,720 thing so then so we we we went through copy then we're going to go into design there's a website 185 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:34,720 called mobbin.com it's a paid website it's actually for best it's they basically save screenshots of 186 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,000 some of like the best in class applications in the world oh okay that have hundreds and thousands of 187 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:47,360 users cash app is there revolute is there wise is there i mean how does it go good designers copy great 188 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:52,800 designer steal right copy yo there's no need to reinvent the wheel so here's what you do 189 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:59,120 you grab screenshots you like the design of that you sign up for mobbin what it's ten twelve dollars a 190 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:04,240 month and that's what my skill file includes by the way my skill file asks them to like check in mobbin 191 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:12,320 for for for like things that inspire them you just grab it you screenshot it you ask ai hey can you please 192 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:19,840 extract the best design practices from this from a ui perspective for me please extracts it next prompt 193 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:25,680 hey can you apply these best in design practices to the thing i'm building right now bob's your uncle 194 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:32,240 you will be surprised at what it comes up with yeah and it's it's it gets better every week basically 195 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:38,880 i've given two developer workshops where i'm training like new developers on how to like do this agentic flow 196 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,760 and we're like sitting there behind a computer we're like oh we can't wait to see what comes out because 197 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:49,440 it's just like it's so cool yeah what it's very empowering right like besides like the old way of 198 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:56,160 you exercise like and then you move it around in figma and it was a painful pixel push yeah yeah it was 199 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,720 it's it's do you think that's because that's on the programming side as well programming like coding 200 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:06,000 itself writing lines of code is very painful it's a very painful process yeah and this is basically like 201 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:12,080 ai is completely eliminated for like 99.9 of coders it has completely eliminated 202 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:18,160 this part of the job basically you think for designers it's similar or the same yeah like pixel 203 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:24,800 pushing is not a thing anymore i'm gonna be honest with you i've been in the design ecosystem now for 204 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:30,880 four years for five years mostly in the bitcoin ecosystem i can count the number of times i've actually 205 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:38,320 worked in a figma file because i i have colleagues like christoph arno who have been designers for like 206 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,040 10 years yeah who just create absolutely beautiful designs i'm like yo can you send me the figma file 207 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:48,480 please he just sends me the figma file i do my own tweaks yeah i see and you focus on one level higher 208 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,440 basically i have always you have always focused on a higher level i always focus on the like zoomed out 209 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:59,600 so my role now in the ecosystem is like where i'm at is what skill files do i create yeah to turn 210 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:06,560 developers of every single bitcoin wallet into having like a ux designer how do i turn nostre developers 211 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:12,560 into designers too yeah it's like hey here's a skill file for you hey here's a skill file for you bob's your 212 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:18,800 uncle yeah right i told you about how sound will just magically appear there it is yeah there it is 213 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:26,240 no but i love i love i'm loving this conversation because it's like what we're talking about is 214 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:36,160 agentic flows ux design bitcoin and data data at the center of everything i want to switch to nostre in 215 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:44,800 a minute but before we do um obviously we haven't managed to solve all the ux issues around bitcoin 216 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:55,120 if you could wave a magic wand and fix like one issue in the bitcoin design space oh can i say two 217 00:22:55,120 --> 00:23:00,240 please you can do your top three if you want to do top three like let's go okay there's no rules to 218 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:05,520 this but you have a magic wand you can wave it which one would you solve okay i have them there 219 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,400 like literally just exploded here into the front of my brain i have them okay i'm going to say them 220 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:17,360 out loud and they go through each copy is number one number two is um area messages number three is 221 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:22,480 fees okay oh really oh you've been working on lightning wallets let me 222 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:31,120 let me let me dive into each one i'm surprised by these answers they're very biased they're very 223 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:36,000 lightning biased i can already tell okay yeah i mean yeah yeah yeah yeah we're working on lightning 224 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:47,760 wallets yeah yeah exactly okay cool so number one copy guys people don't know what tor is just use 225 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:57,360 human speak human like do you want a nor do you want a more privacy for your wallet or would you 226 00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:01,600 like to use this or even similar do would you like to use the recommended settings they don't need to 227 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,360 know tours under that would you like to use the recommended settings or would you like to use 228 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:11,200 the i don't know regular settings or something i don't know but just keep the complexity 229 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:18,080 i know you have to reveal certain things in terms of information but like keep the language simple 230 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:24,240 if we want global adoption if we want people in africa if you want people in south america who are 231 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:33,440 non-native english speakers to use bitcoin and lightning wallets guys guys speak human all right copy 232 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:41,200 your biggest your biggest issue is copy copy is number one number two fees i recently used a wallet i'm not 233 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:47,680 going to mention the name of the wallet because this exists across many of us this is the the nicest 234 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,720 dialogue ever recorded in no solutions usually we mention all the names and we just shit on people 235 00:24:52,720 --> 00:25:01,520 all the time i'm polite yeah i'm so polite okay it's a nice change okay check it out so i use the wallet i'm about to click send 236 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:09,280 it says the fee it shows me the amount i'm sending on the interface and then it shows me the fee in small 237 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:17,040 the fees like always like in like 10 times smaller size font than the than the like the the ascend amount 238 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:24,720 but then it doesn't add those two amounts together it waits the wallet will wait until i click send and 239 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:33,600 then it says it will say error 40132ab and i'm like but sometimes if you're lucky the wallet will say 240 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:38,400 let's say you want to send basically your whole balance and you have to make room for fees and you 241 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,400 don't really know what the fees are that's what you're describing it's a simple calculation just show 242 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:49,680 the users yeah believe me it's not simple in combination with the fees okay fee estimation is 243 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:55,920 not it's not simple show them the final calculation once it's done and then confirm with them that 244 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:03,040 they have sufficient balance in their wallets yeah to send this don't error message it yeah right which 245 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:09,280 brings me to my third point error messages don't you like error codes what's wrong with error codes 246 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:17,040 please it's painful man you know it's copy paste it posted to get up so firstly we say we want global 247 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:24,080 adoption yeah but then and then we give people these bitcoin and lightning wallets and we're like yeah 248 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:29,600 no don't worry you put your savings in here and you can you can save in here but you know when you 249 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:37,280 click send and there's some error you just get this like developer code which comes back to like 250 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:48,560 error 3015x oh yeah okay so put error messages in like inform the user what went down that's it so 251 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:55,360 simple because they want to feel safe when they're sending their thing you know that's the main issue 252 00:26:55,360 --> 00:27:00,560 that i encounter i've onboarded a lot of people to bitcoin and and like you know over the years and and 253 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:06,000 watch them and you know like basically watch them grow up and so on yeah and kind of the nervousness 254 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:12,640 that's there yeah every time you interact with bitcoin um that that it just as it is still now it 255 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,320 usually takes a long while to for it to go away because you're always afraid that you click something 256 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,520 wrong do something wrong and everything is gone and like rightly so like because it can happen i mean i had 257 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,080 had an experience with the wallet where it was splitting the uxtos like some of the wallet splits 258 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:33,360 it right but then guess what happened let's say you have your balance 259 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:42,160 and you're doing a send transaction this particular wallet we're not gonna name names i sent a small 260 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:48,880 amount but you know what it does as it was splitting the uxto it cleared the whole balance 261 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:54,560 so i'm staring oh yeah yeah you look at the zero yeah dude but that's just how it works technically 262 00:27:54,560 --> 00:28:04,000 can you imagine yeah i mean what i felt in my stomach in that moment when i saw that zero on the 263 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:10,080 screen i'm like okay it's all gone it's gone there's nothing so we still have ux issues that's what you're 264 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,760 trying to say we have ux issues okay we and these are not ux issues we don't even have to use the word 265 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:23,040 ux we just call them human this is just humans big human so i feel like all the time i mean we have 266 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:33,520 human issues as well i feel like we just need to speak human and if we all just speak human a little 267 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:40,400 bit more i think we'll get a get a lot further and and paradoxically you think that ai is gonna help 268 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:46,640 you it's gonna help us with that if you inject the right copy review into ai we did it with the app 269 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,160 revive design session that we did yesterday we're like produce the copy for the level of a 15 year 270 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:58,960 old this is built for a non-native english speaker living in africa yeah pretty sweet nice nice pretty 271 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:05,280 sweet when it's able to do you know yeah i mean a super easy task could be just grab a few wallets 272 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:13,280 run it through like a copy review yeah file issues that's pretty low lift yeah i think that'll already 273 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:19,040 have have pretty massive impact i know it seems like a small thing but i think that in itself will 274 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:24,720 have massive impact all right um yeah i think there's a lot of flowing fruits i mean obviously 275 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:32,080 like even more so on the nostril side you know like it's it's it's still younger it's still still more 276 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:37,360 experimental even though we are out of you know like nostril is not an infant anymore it's been 277 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:44,400 around for a couple of years now yeah but i i still think when it comes to communicating with normal 278 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:50,160 humans in terms of i don't know like just talking about endpups and insects and saps and not so 279 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:56,560 while i connect and and whatever it's just there's still a long way to go yeah i think it's fair to 280 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:03,520 say that most people that get onboarded into nostril have to work through a couple weeks of confusion 281 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:08,160 i onboarded lots of people in nostril as well and what i what are you noticing 282 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:17,040 very similar issues as with the bitcoin onboarding uh way less risk um but mostly uh like usually you 283 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:22,080 onboard people and it doesn't matter how you repeat the you know private key stuff and such stuff like 284 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,240 put it in your password manager and it's on people usually don't and then they lose their phone and 285 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,920 then they're like oh yeah i'm on nostril and um and then they'll just you know like maybe they find 286 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,160 their endpub again because it's public and then they paste it into a nostril client and they think 287 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,800 they're back on nostril because it actually works but it's like a read-only use right oh man and so i 288 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,960 encountered that a bit yeah yeah where it's just like no your account is actually gone you can't do 289 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,400 anything no one can help you but you can still view your thing 290 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:54,800 um i know oh we'll turn around soon enough as you know 291 00:30:54,800 --> 00:31:01,040 too many bitcoins around here yeah yeah too many 292 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:08,480 what are the chances yeah you think you think we're going in the because we just heard we're 293 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,760 going in the wrong direction little do they know that we're always going in the right direction we're 294 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,800 always going everyone else is actually wrong and you know just with what you said seriously i do 295 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,600 honestly think that the bitcoin and the nostril ecosystem is going in the right direction all right 296 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,480 good all things said i do believe it is going in the right direction i believe that we have enough 297 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:34,000 people in the ecosystem who genuinely care about human freedom enough to ensure that this gets to a good 298 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:41,120 level yeah so i i feel so you remain bullish i remain optimistic yeah i do i honestly do like when i look 299 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,960 at what people are building i mean i know someone right now in the nostril ecosystem who's building a 300 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:56,320 google drive clone oh yeah marty mommy let's go he's killing it marty is a shizzles man yeah if you think you're 301 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,360 using a lot of tokens you haven't seen what marty is doing i mean if marty is not sitting behind 302 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,240 his computer he's actually walking around with his computer in hand he just he's his computer 303 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:11,040 it needs to be attached to his hands and then he has everything he needs one of those things you 304 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,680 know there's things so you can strap around like your your belly basically and you you have a 305 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,480 standing desk with you at all times i was like i was trying to help him out with the with the ux of uh 306 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,680 what's what's the nostril um app that he built i forget the name uh iris iris i was trying to help 307 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,920 him out with the ux of that he helped me to clone the repo and everything but he just he's just 308 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:36,320 building so many things so far he's rebuilding his whole software stack everything that he needs to 309 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:41,920 use uh from scratch and building it on nostril like he built nostril vpn i actually kidnapped him 310 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,880 and went on a walk with him in madera and we talked about it and so i love what he's i love 311 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:52,240 what he's doing yeah what he's doing is very unique because he's looking at it from the perspective of 312 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:57,920 like and that's the that's a very good perspective because it's like okay what are like the mainstream 313 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,760 applications that people are using every day oh cool let's just build on top of nostril and he's 314 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,960 building it for himself basically like nostril double ratchet is basically signal you know like the 315 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,840 music thing he's building is basically spotify the document thing you mentioned is basically google docs 316 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:18,320 that's it yeah and so he's building it for himself which comes back to again the mob rule like letting 317 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:23,840 the community side versus you know having a vision and direction and and being the benevolent dictator 318 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,560 that just pushes the project forward because you know like linux for example had a very benevolent 319 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:34,960 dictator yeah mechanic and went very very far and is still going far oh there we go and other uh you 320 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:41,040 know other projects had a different approach maybe wikipedia would be an example uh in the early days it 321 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:47,360 was very very like communal and democratic and everyone could edit and everyone could do everything 322 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:53,120 yeah and they got really far as well so i think both approaches can absolutely i admire i admire both 323 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,960 approaches you know because once again i listen to a lot of podcasts i listen to another podcast of jack and 324 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:05,360 he was just like just build stuff just build things like like when you see some of the most successful 325 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:12,320 applications on the market you they often fall into two categories we have a unicorn i call it the 326 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,360 unicorn category and then the other category is the category which marty is building for you so i'm 327 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:25,360 going to split into two like niche niche uh use cases yeah so the unicorn category is like oh like i need 328 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:31,120 this thing so i'm going to build it for myself and i don't know if other people are going to use it but 329 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,760 it's going to make my life super okay unicorn in the sense that's a very special rare thing not in the 330 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,800 venture capital sense there we go and then the other track in the road is like building stuff like 331 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:46,720 what marty's doing is building the nostra version of spotify building nostra version of google drive okay 332 00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:51,760 which is what china is doing for absolutely everything there we go no offense marty i don't mean it in that way 333 00:34:51,760 --> 00:35:03,600 you know so so and there is no right or wrong way yeah because i don't know like who you know i think a 334 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:08,480 lot of people have this thing like oh like if there was more better distribution then there would be more 335 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:15,920 nostril adoption if there was better um like a user experience it would be more nostril version i don't 336 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:21,920 think there is one answer okay and i don't think anyone knows the answer and i think if we even 337 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:28,080 think we know the answer then we're like it's hubris we're just trying to like brainwash ourselves 338 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:33,280 yeah yeah you think the normies have a chance you think method option is coming on either the 339 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:42,240 bitcoin or the nostril side anytime soon next 10 years if i look at vine at what um rabble built 340 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:49,840 yeah yo that went viral in a super short space before it was life it went viral already through 341 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,560 distribution and i was like chatting with rabble the other day and i was like hey yeah rabble like 342 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:59,760 how did you where did it even come up to build this he was like yeah i know i was just like doing my 343 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,800 podcast and then a bunch of people just mentioned vine and how nice it was and how much they miss it 344 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,880 and he's like i never used vine before but i thought okay well i guess i can try and build it 345 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,840 i mean he has all the archives that's what he got going for him as well he that's the first thing he 346 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:18,560 did right like bring back all the old vines because he just has access to the archive and that's coming 347 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:26,320 back to your question it's like do i think nostril or bitcoin will go will go like you know global 348 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:33,520 adoption if we get a few more unicorns like well vine is not a unicorn because vine is built based on 349 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:39,200 based on previously but if we get more things like vine that has like nostril and bitcoin under the hood 350 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,480 we don't need to explain that the technology is under the hood it just needs to provide 351 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:50,880 it needs to provide a solution to people it needs to solve a problem it needs to be fun 352 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,520 yeah it needs to have that you know i think the fun part is the big one the fun part is the big one and 353 00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:01,680 i think that's also what on the ai side i think um and we heard people talk about this yesterday i think 354 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:07,040 um the nostril crowd can bring to the table because there is something to be said about 355 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:17,040 using there was actually josh's point using ai in uh in an innocent way which if you're surveilled is 356 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,920 very hard to do yeah you know like if you if someone is looking at your shoulder at all times it's very 357 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:28,560 hard to experiment and and be playful and innocent and so on and and so since the nostril crowd cares 358 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:35,200 about privacy and we already have nostril projects that allow very easy access to private ai systems 359 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,560 i think you know they're having fun with it part like you can ask this thing anything yeah and there 360 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,880 won't be any like consequences for you in terms of your accounts being frozen or whatever like doesn't 361 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:51,520 matter how weird it is or whatever you know people type weird things into search bars and into chat tbd all 362 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:57,200 the time of course and i want to ask you that question what do you think that the nostril ecosystem 363 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:03,440 needs in terms of its user experience you're a lot deeper in that rabbit hole than i am i'm only just 364 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:10,880 getting my toe in yeah to me it's very similar to bitcoin and i think in general um i think both things just 365 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:16,880 mostly need time i think on the nostril side on the bitcoin side it's also it's very easy like more 366 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:22,400 people will get uh de-platformed from things and debanked and like their accounts will be frozen like 367 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:28,960 the bank accounts and you know like kyc will bring more friction and i think bitcoin will just get better 368 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:36,160 and better and better and more friction less and so so like not everyone makes the switch just because 369 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:43,360 their neobank got suspended because of suspicious activity or whatever yeah um like the the pain 370 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,520 tolerance of people is very different but if it happens like a second time and a third time and the 371 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,080 fourth time then you'll run into bitcoin eventually and you'll some of them might stick around and that's 372 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:58,080 what happened historically and i think for noster it's similar that like if your content is just edgy 373 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,960 enough you'll just be demonetized or de-platformed yeah and noster will be there for you there we go 374 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,960 so that's kind of that has been my take on the whole situation for a very long time i kind of 375 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:15,200 you know like i don't believe in the mass adoption at all costs 376 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:23,680 thing i think it's fine if it's a niche i use i use linux a lot as uh as an example where it's just like 377 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:31,600 linux was completely laughed at like you know 30 40 years ago like it's like completely like it was 378 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,640 not a serious thing and it was not a serious thing for a very very long time but it was always there 379 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:42,320 and it's they always stayed pure yeah and eventually turned itself into a serious thing yeah and so in 380 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:49,040 some sense i care about purity more than about mass adoption and because if you water down 381 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,720 and that's where it comes back to ux and i always make this example 382 00:39:52,720 --> 00:40:00,960 if like if you abstract away a private key on the bitcoin side and turn it into like i forgot my 383 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:06,560 password thing yes that is not bitcoin anymore you're building coinbase right and so so there is a 384 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:12,080 there is a level of abstraction that you you you must not break and i use a different example sometimes 385 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:18,320 which is comparing the post office to email right i did this in the past and it actually works you 386 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:23,760 know if you know a guy in a country and you know the bar he frequents and you don't even know his name 387 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:28,320 you can write a postcard and you can make this work that the postcard actually reaches the guy you 388 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:34,720 know it's like it's to whatever mike he's always at this bar on friday and the bar is here and there 389 00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:38,000 and so on and like the post office will figure it out it will land at the bar and 390 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,320 mike comes and he'll get the postcard and he'll be happy yeah with email this will never work 391 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:48,320 so that's fundamentally different email you need an email address you can't do the thing like you 392 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:53,760 know like the post office will figure it out kind of thing and and i i view i view like you know 393 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,520 bitcoin private keys and also private keys under the same light like you destroy a fundamental thing 394 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:04,080 of bitcoin yeah if you remove that abstraction layer and make it easy and make the ux amazing which 395 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,000 is of course like i'm describing coinbase not that the coinbase ux is amazing but you got my point 396 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,720 it's like you make it super easy you're allowed to forget your password you can recover at any time 397 00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:17,120 and so on but it means that all the self-sovereignty flies out the window because you're not holding bitcoin 398 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:23,040 you're just you know you're holding paper bitcoin basically so that's that's just what we're looking 399 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:30,160 at and same for same for noster you know like if you there is no way around shifting the burden of 400 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:36,240 responsibility towards the user if you want to empower users the other side of the empowerment 401 00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:42,960 coin is responsibility absolutely absolutely and so that's why i'm not like and it's it's with other 402 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:50,560 technologies we're perfectly fine of doing that like kitchen knives yes cars yes it's not easy to drive 403 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:56,880 a car yes people need a lot of training it's a lot of responsibility but generally people manage they do and 404 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:03,280 we're also okay with people having car accidents so in a society we're living in it's we know that cars 405 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:08,320 kill so many people it's not even funny we still get in and we still drive and that's i think the right 406 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:14,560 framework to look at bitcoin and these kind of ux issues because it's just like yes you're gonna shoot 407 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,360 yourself in the foot and lose your private key or whatever yeah but maybe you do it once right and 408 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:24,960 then you learn hopefully the mistake isn't like you know like maybe hopefully the the lesson isn't that 409 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,520 expensive yeah and i i have another question for you like from you because you've been also in the 410 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:36,720 nostril ecosystem longer than i'm very interested to learn how you think because i'm exploring this with 411 00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:43,680 jeff right now with white noise but you know how do you think developers and ux designers can work 412 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:50,320 together in the most efficient way like i'm all about efficiency and like we don't need to have meetings 413 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:56,640 we don't need to have half an hour one hour meetings we can get stuff done async we don't we now talk to 414 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:03,360 our computer we vibe code we don't need to type anymore we don't need meetings you know yeah 415 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:10,400 how do you think what do you think the the relationship looks like for ux designers and 416 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:17,600 developers in the future that's a good question i'm not sure if i have a good answer um stuff is 417 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:28,080 definitely shifting um maybe maybe maybe um hmm so just thinking like something you're building right 418 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:33,440 now and if you wanted some ux help like how would you want to work with that person you know just think 419 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,520 of something you're building or you built and maybe you want to improve the user experience 420 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:48,320 yeah i'm kind of i'm i'm trying to line up my thoughts correctly and line us up correctly as well 421 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:58,080 it's just like this um because the issue that i see right now it's it's a it's a very innocent 422 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:04,240 question but it's the transformation we're going through right now is very weird you you are right 423 00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:11,920 in some sense but i feel like i feel like we're something is getting lost right now because people 424 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:17,120 don't even read stuff anymore they have their agents read stuff and summarize stuff and have their agents 425 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:23,840 respond absolutely and i think that's a massive issue um the main reason why i started sovereign 426 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:34,960 engineering is because i had this gut feeling that to solve actually hard problem you need to be in person 427 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:43,200 and that's not something i came up with myself that's basically kind of what the best cognitive science 428 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:53,360 research shows is that we have something that appears only in person more or less tapping into distributed 429 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:59,600 cognition that's the proper like for you cox science term okay which is basically if you have a deep 430 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:05,360 conversation the conversation is bigger than all the participants and the conversation will go where he 431 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:10,960 wants to go so there is a spirit just like yeah just like this and that's why i do this like and 432 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:17,040 sovereign engineering is purpose built it's engineered the whole program is engineered around this idea 433 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,680 how can you bring people in situations so that this happens and that's also the magic around 434 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:26,000 conferences for example you meet people that you you interact online a lot you kind of know each other 435 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,560 and then you you suddenly you have these unlocks and you suddenly it's like oh wow oh yeah and then it 436 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,320 just goes from one thing to the next and you're cooking and you're getting somewhere absolutely and 437 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:39,760 it's it's not a debate it's not a it's not it's there is like no goal in mind it's a complete 438 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,920 like let's just talk and let's just see what happens kind of thing absolutely yeah and there is a 439 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:49,440 certain energy um uh when once distributed cognition starts to happen and we know this 440 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:54,080 like the colloquial term for it would be like team spirit for example you know like i always use the 441 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,960 chicago pools you know there's a certain like if the team is really kind of getting into the groove the 442 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,880 team spirit appears and carries them over the finish line and they win the game and so fully on board 443 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,040 yeah and so everyone knows that this is true and everyone knows that this exists and there's like 444 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:13,280 you know a scientific framework that explains all that and so on and so forth and so basically all 445 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:20,480 highly complex problems can't be solved by a single person it only can be solved with distributed 446 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:26,480 cognition and i like that you mentioned copy actually as the first point yes because language is a 447 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:33,600 is a product of distributed cognition no single person is in charge of language and language is 448 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:38,640 smarter and wiser than every single individual like what does it mean to understand something 449 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:43,760 you're building a mental construct that you can stand under right yes like that is not brittle and 450 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,400 won't fall down and crush you yes and every single word is like that and works like that and so so 451 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:53,680 language is way like there's so much wisdom embedded in language and most people are unaware of that 452 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,560 wisdom but when you are using the right words and define the right terms and so on then you're tapping 453 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:04,160 into that wisdom and that also transfers you know in our case to the user and so absolutely yeah i'm 454 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:09,120 not sure what the question was but that's like thanks for coming to my ted talk no no no but you so 455 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,680 the question was and it's fine because your train of thought makes sense so i asked you the question 456 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:18,640 that i asked you was how does what how do you think the future of ux designers and developers look 457 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:25,120 collaboration so then i kind of got the answer so yeah yeah i think we'll we'll do a lot of stuff 458 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,520 obviously on nostr and don't get up on the on like nostr-based github systems that's on 459 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:34,800 collaboration is changing as well and on the open source side the issue is it's so easy right now 460 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:40,720 to create a pull request create an issue those kind of things uh open source projects are actually 461 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:48,080 closing down the doors they are i mean i was speaking i'm you know like i was uh who the 462 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:54,560 the payment system i forget it now the bitcoin one path pav next what is it called bdc pay server 463 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:59,280 he's like oh my god like being like managing the you're being crushed as a maintainer that's what's 464 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,760 happening absolutely crushed and we call these drive-by pull requests because it's like a drive-by 465 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:11,440 shooting right it's just like you window down clod gets out the uzi and it's like 50 new pull requests 466 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:15,840 and it takes you like hours to review this so there's another tool there's another solution to 467 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:21,840 be built is like a tool that basically analyzes whether sure you use fire to fight fire like you 468 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:28,080 you'll you use ai to deal with the ai slop and so on so what do you so you use the word collaboration 469 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:35,440 yeah and you went back to your in-person events yeah so so so i think what we're losing online is 470 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,520 like and don't get me wrong there is a hive mind you know like bitcoin twitter 471 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:45,200 um had this and still has this noster has it there is a like everyone knows the reddit hive mind for 472 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:52,000 example so you have distributed cognition as well in an online environment the issue is that it screws 473 00:48:54,080 --> 00:49:00,080 the nature of how the online world is structured is not conducive necessarily to dialogue to healthy 474 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,560 dialogue 100 i mean everyone knows this like there's like flame wars on twitter this conversation 475 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:10,880 that we're having the spirit that you have it could never exist no no it's just like i would you know 476 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,720 like people aim at other things they aim at like ratioing other people for example on twitter you know 477 00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:19,520 like it's you're not even trying to to do a proper rebuttal to the point you're just trying to ratio the 478 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:25,440 person because it's funny yeah and you know the the thing the thing as well is i just want to say coming 479 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:31,920 back to the term of communication when you for me as a ux designer when i communicate a pull request 480 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:39,840 or an issue on a bitcoin wallets repo or on a nostril repo they cannot hear my human tone yeah of course 481 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:46,560 it goes away that request it goes away yeah right and and i like that you use the word communication 482 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:52,880 and i want to point out also like again coming back to what's in the words we obviously have a bitcoin 483 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:58,880 community and we also have a nostril community right yeah and so that's why why i i i'm gonna use 484 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:04,880 this to push back a little bit on the kind of copy and like phrasing it for normies kind of yeah yeah 485 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:11,600 thought because what does it mean to be a community community it's like it's the word comes like if you 486 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:16,880 dissect the word it's like common unity that is right that is right and so what do bitcoiners have 487 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,600 in common they understand bitcoin and they have they have they have various reasons for being a 488 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:28,640 bitcoiner most like two of them it's like either hyperinflation or um the permissionless nature of 489 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,320 it which basically like they have been debanked or had those kind of issues that's usually that's the 490 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,800 big two there's others but that's the big two and so that's what they have in common and there's also a 491 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:43,360 common vocabulary and so like the common unity of bitcoin is this shared experience share shared 492 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:48,400 worldview yeah shared vocabulary and so on yeah we have this on us as well and in the linux community 493 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,000 for example you have this as well everyone knows what the shell is everyone knows what that's what 494 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,560 makes you stay in the community because they're speaking your vibe there's and that's also what 495 00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:03,120 brings coherence and you need coherence to actually be able to tackle any problem like to any problem like 496 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,920 you if you if you if you don't have coherence is the starting point yeah yeah you have to define 497 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:12,080 the terms you have to define that defining the terms allows you to define the problem allows you 498 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:17,600 to you know wiggle your way towards a potential solution because there's you know no solution you're 499 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,360 you're making my brain spin so i'm going to come back to what the question again because i was like okay 500 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:28,160 how do you how does the ux designer and work together my honest answer is in person that's exactly 501 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:34,160 what i thought but but it's at events like this like it can be a sprint make it like a couple day sprint 502 00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:40,000 and then shift to the online world and that's perfectly fine but but that's why i'm i'm very 503 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,320 bullish on like small in-person events and i know it's hard to do you know like it's travel and 504 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:49,360 family and stuff and so on but that's why sovereign engineering is a pure in-person event like it 505 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:54,560 wouldn't work otherwise it's like multi-week in person like take 21 insane people lock them up 506 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:59,520 and just we'll be in person for like many weeks and we'll just try to you know like hash it out 507 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:05,920 and see see if we can you know build cool stuff in the spirit of bitcoin that's the goal like it's 508 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:10,960 and i i can't say it in a better way it's like if you don't understand what i mean when i say in 509 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:15,040 the spirit of bitcoin then you're already like please don't sign up you know because you're just you're 510 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:21,040 not gonna get it but if i if i if i tell a nostra person that nostra is built in the spirit of bitcoin 511 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,800 they will nod along and agree because it's obviously true you know like it's like the 512 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,480 censorship resistant network and so i'm gonna challenge you on this one now and i'm gonna 513 00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:34,640 there's two layers so like the one is the in-person thing and i am so on board like i was just in a 514 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:39,600 hackathon now yeah i wouldn't have had access to a nostril developer who i could feel the spirits 515 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:44,640 together with yeah i wouldn't have been able to build beansprout right this like intelligence layer on 516 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:51,600 bitcoin yeah you won an award right it's like i mean let's go it's amazing but like okay we're 517 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:56,480 we're based we're geographically distributed we have people living in india we have people living 518 00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:01,600 in south america we have people living in africa yeah they don't have the financial means to come 519 00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:07,440 fly over to an in-person event yeah we want to access the talent from all over the world yeah we want 520 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:15,200 bitcoin and australia to be built in a decentralized way yeah not only with people from the western world 521 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:22,480 yeah because if we tap into the the hive mind of the global ecosystem of the global intelligence 522 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,480 that's where we're going to be able to be like like oh cool that south american person has a really 523 00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:33,440 unique angle that african was a really angle so how do we how do you think we achieve that like i fully 524 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:38,480 agree with you i fully agree with you that the in-person is the best yeah but because i'm 525 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:44,240 originally from south africa you know yeah i had to like make my way here into this like western world 526 00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:48,800 we live in you know and i i very much stand very strongly and you know want to see more of the 527 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,840 international talent you know and what i've experienced is i've been giving online developer workshops 528 00:53:53,840 --> 00:54:00,880 for online hackathons so all these developers who have these like hackathons or development communities 529 00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:07,760 they're like yo mo we need you vibe design session let's go so i've been doing that as well but yeah 530 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:12,720 i'm just like i'm interested to learn from you because you it seems you have a model which works 531 00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:19,600 like really well um you know in terms of like hacking and producing developers like i've spoken to at 532 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:24,080 least one person who's come actually the developer the nostril developer i worked with he came out of 533 00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:30,560 your booty let's go sovereign engineering he came out of it he was like it was the best he was like it 534 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:39,600 was the best so how do you think we how do you think we bring the developers and the designers together 535 00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:46,960 in an in-person way and in a non-in-person way yeah that makes it accessible for everyone it's it's and i 536 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:53,760 face this problem kind of as an early bitcoin i'm just like having no bitcoin community yeah and like 537 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:58,320 the question basically is how do you build out a community like how do you build out a community of 538 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:03,760 like-minded people how do you what is the common unity and how do you bring the people together yeah 539 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:11,040 and the best way i know how is to put a flag in the ground be very very clear what's on the flag okay 540 00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:16,160 very clear okay like that might be cypherpunk we're back to the one word thing you know yeah 541 00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:21,520 there we go that might be brilliant assets that might be whatever lightning that might be i don't 542 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:27,280 i don't care you know like mining it's whatever put the stake and and and i have this kind of 543 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:33,120 framework i mean i started the uh german-speaking bitcoin only community uh together with marcus 544 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:39,520 many years ago and that's kind of the framework we used and it works really well and it was actually 545 00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:44,480 successfully replicated in some other countries and it's um so if someone's interested in that that's 546 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:50,400 still on 21 world like 21.world where i describe kind of how we did that yeah and i think you can do 547 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:59,040 the the same thing for whatever special niche interests you because bitcoin definitely specialized 548 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,520 there isn't like a bitcoin space anymore you know like there's lightning oh yeah spark there's mining 549 00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:09,360 there's like whatever stretch you know there's like all kinds of and so on the nostra side as well 550 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:14,480 like if you're really interested in we have lots of musicians on us if you're interested in kind 551 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:21,280 of reinventing music and your your flag might be anti-spotify you know and just like let's pay artists 552 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,600 again like let's let's let's pay artists their fair share and how can we make that you don't even 553 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,280 need to mention the n-word you know just like you shouldn't mention the b-word ever if you're 554 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:34,880 like try to get people into bitcoin never mention the b-word and and so i think that's how you can 555 00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:39,040 do it and then you'll have to attract people locally at first and then you grow and that might 556 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:44,000 allow you to travel and then you take it from there but it's very hard there's no there's no silver 557 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:50,960 bullet and kind of the one thing like if anyone tries to do that my advice is always the same three 558 00:56:50,960 --> 00:57:01,280 words very easy consistency consistency consistency you have to be willing to you know like literally 559 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:06,960 be alone for like 21 weeks i always go like do it for 21 weeks yeah and my other piece of advice is 560 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,200 like don't start it alone don't like you have to be two people find one other person you have to 561 00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:17,600 collaborate you have to because alone alone and being two is very different it's very it makes it's 562 00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:23,360 having like a gym body right going to the gym alone or having a gym body world of difference and don't 563 00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:29,120 find people don't find co-founders who think exactly like you and who agree with you all the time yeah 564 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:35,680 i mean you also shouldn't hate each other you know it's like your co-founder is marriage yeah it's like 565 00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:39,920 there should be a healthy amount of friction but it shouldn't be a carbon copy of course so so coming 566 00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:44,560 back to my question you feel it's it's the in-person that's going to be the biggest because then there's 567 00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:50,720 there's the spirit that exists to to work effectively with people you have to know them really well and 568 00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:57,360 you have to trust them and i think the only way to really build up trust is in person that said we're 569 00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:02,480 working on trustless technology and so on like you can get to know people online it absolutely works 570 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:08,800 it's just it's just a longer process yeah and a more arduous process and i think it's it's all about 571 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:14,480 kind of the middle way finding the balance between in person and um online collaboration yeah i mean 572 00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:19,600 i'm just i'm just brain i'm just rainbowing it here right i'm just saying whatever's coming to my 573 00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:25,040 mind so like based on the principle that you have you have these cohorts like what four times a year 574 00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:33,520 um that's unclear between two and four times yeah all good all good yeah so we're still figuring it out 575 00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:38,560 so there could be like an on and then they're like meeting they're hacking they're building they're 576 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,960 learning how to build it's all in madeira like a sovereign engineering is a very specific program 577 00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:48,640 with a very strict structure yeah and it's in madeira for a reason reason number one i'm there okay 578 00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:54,000 reason number two it's very hard to get to it's very hard to leave perfect you put them in a jail 579 00:58:54,000 --> 00:59:00,160 dude yes you get them in the jail so 100 that's the reason it has to be something like that uh i 580 00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:05,520 actually took inspiration from the bitcoin bush bash people they do that in the australian bush okay 581 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:10,880 those meetups and same idea it's very very hard to get there like you don't you don't drive for 15 582 00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:16,080 hours and go through lots of pain and then you just leave again instantly you just don't do that no 583 00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:21,200 you're running a marathon to get there yeah you know like in for a penny and for a pound kind of 584 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:26,720 situation like if you if you make the effort to come you're gonna stay and for sovereign engineering 585 00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:34,320 that's crucial because like there will be periods where you want to leave it's it really sucks it's 586 00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,760 like this you know this this hot yoga thing where like they lock themselves in yeah and it's like you 587 00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:46,000 do like i don't know how many hours at like you know 80 or 100 degree fahrenheit and you just basically 588 00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:51,200 die you want to leave always you know and so so they lock the door so you're not allowed to leave 589 00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:56,880 and that's basically the idea but that's also in terms of you know like that really 590 00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:03,040 like you can't wear a mask for such a prolonged period of time you really get to know people 591 01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:07,680 and that's where like the really the real magic usually starts happening at like week two 592 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:12,960 that's what it's like end of week two that's where things kind of that's where the whole thing gets 593 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:17,920 is a mind of its own and it's just starting move started to move in one direction and it's just 594 01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:21,920 everyone goes with the flow now i like where we're going with this because it's around this 595 01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:28,240 philosophical way of you need to lock yourself in a room and focus on one thing yeah to go really 596 01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:34,160 deep into that subject and we have this attention economy which our attention completely counter to that 597 01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:40,320 which is the complete opposite to that so i think if we really want to get done 598 01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:48,400 it's about similar to your your your boot camps that you have the sovereign engineering is you get 599 01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:54,240 everyone together and it's like hey listen this is what's up there's no this there's no that there's 600 01:00:54,240 --> 01:01:00,640 no let me just vibe on my project i'm building yo we're just focusing on this one thing and that's 601 01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:05,200 what we're focusing on for this period and if you feel you can dedicate your time to doing that 602 01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:11,280 in these few days great let's roll yeah and then you're gonna like really really make impact right 603 01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:15,440 then you're gonna go yeah you if you're lucky you figure something out that's kind of new and 604 01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:20,480 hopefully useful that's that's what we're that's what we're aiming at i have to be honest i've first 605 01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:25,120 of all i've no idea where we are now i do not know where we are and second of all i'm kind of all out of 606 01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:30,720 steam what about you i'm i'm i feel like we talked it all out all right any any last words any famous 607 01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:37,920 last words builders keep on building freedom tech we freaking love you i actually have a last question 608 01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:44,400 for you it's like how can people help you in your specific mission i'm going to be building a lot of 609 01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:51,120 things in the next year because i've become a builder all right um developers i'm going to be reaching 610 01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:58,160 out to you and asking you how are you building and how can we collaborate together in the most effective 611 01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:04,640 effective way so if they can just reach out to me just slide into my nostril dms and be like yo mo 612 01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:10,560 we want to learn how to work better together and i think that this is the best way to work together 613 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:17,360 just slide into my dms shoot whatever comes out of your brain and i'd love to just speak with them 614 01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:22,240 awesome awesome that's it simple as that same for me slide into my dm send me all the stuff i'll never 615 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:29,040 read it i mean we're all we're all in this together yeah so like this is this is a community of builders 616 01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:36,400 um and thank you to all of the builders who spend their time energy and pain building upon this 617 01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:40,560 technology that's not always the easiest to build because i know sometimes it's not even 618 01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:44,160 it's not easy it's not even like mathematically possible some of the stuff people are building 619 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:48,080 but at the end of it you know you're noticing happiness is shipping that's one of the sovereign 620 01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:52,880 engineering just ship it and just do stuff just build stuff you can just do stuff just build stuff 621 01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:59,120 that was great big hug yeah thanks so much for indulging me absolutely thank you for the questions 622 01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:03,920 and for the walk this is so much better than a podcast yeah i'm telling everyone it's great right 623 01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:08,560 it's like why do you you don't need to edit stuff and like edit out all the truth just keep everything 624 01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:10,640 in just send it do it